COTM 23 First Spoiler

To qualify for this spoiler, you must have:


Reached the middle-ages.
Met at least 2 other civilizations (dead or alive).
Have explored the mountain areas near your start position.

What was your strategy in the early game? Did you attempt to pop the visible goodie hut with your worker :mischief: ?

If you have met more than 3 civilizations, then hide any map knowledge beyond the 3 nearest civs...

YOU EVIL PERSON!!!!! :aargh::aargh::aargh:

What was your strategy in the early game? Did you attempt to pop the visible goodie hut with your worker :mischief: ?
I did try to pop the goody hut, and boy was i annoyed when i saw india was going to take it. I traded with them, and we were at parity for a short period of time. Less than a turn to be exact. They popped pottery from the hut. :mad:

Settler then went down to the south, and after finding out Delhi was the only possible coastal city, my plan was made for me. I bult approx 6 archers to take Dehli, but my attempt failed. It took a stack of 10 archers and a spear to conquer Delhi. I earnt myself a GL :woohoo: but wouldnt be able to make an army till i built 2 more cities :wallbash:. It then took much longer to get MM and Rep, to get off my **** island. At least i had commerce.

Then the barbs on the second island... dont get me started on them. My 2 spearmen and 4 archers took out at least 50 barbs on that goddamn island. Eventually, i'd built Pyongyang, Wonsan and Pusan, with the building of Wonsan meeting my next obstacle, the Inca. They were so technologically advance i nearly threw my laptop across the room. All i knew was that they were in the MA, and that JS Bach Cathedral had been built somewhere.

Then came the MA, when things got (a little) better for Korea.

Awesome map! This is the funnest map I've ever played. I can't imagine all the time required to create this COTM, but thank you so much Gyathaar. Tons of fun! Most challenging.

Crazy map. Absolutno without variants strategy.
1. Goto Republic
2. build GL
3. Kill India
4. Build next cities - only 3 (+capital+Delhi)
5. Build 5-6 workers and mountinas roads.
6. build 20-30 swordsmaen, move then in desert a kill all around.
......
7. GL givs 20-30 tech...
I think - main starategy on this map - 20K, but it is chess - not civailisation.
Not interesting way for me. May by my goal UN or domination...

After dying horribly early with my galley in the previous COTM, this one was a must play. Once I saw India was going to take the goody hut, I did not trade with them. They got pottery, so I traded for that with Bronze. Of course I did not build a granary.

The research goal was the republic slingshot. We had a lot of gold available but few shields for quite a long time. I hit republic in 1575, and got a 2 turn anarchy, not surprising since we only had our capital. Traded for IW after a few turns and WC, and went after India. Beat them up right after the QSC, taking 7 archers and a warrior to vanquish them. I made sure to trade republic to them before declaring so they couldnt pop rush another spear.

The next challenge was clearing out the barbs so I could get a city on the outer ring of the next little island puzzle. No empty places to land with my settlers and archer/spear forces. So it took until 50 AD to plant a city there and meet the Incas. But the Incas sucked, falling quickly to archers and a few swords. I simply extorted techs from them and redeclared, and I'm holding off on getting the last AA tech until I meet some other folks. I might jump my palace to Inca land but I'm a bit tentative since their lands suck so bad.

Similar results to what has posted so far. India got the hut, later I killed India. I did however build the Great Library as I took Literature with the Philosophy bonus. At that point I wasn't in too big of a hurry to meet everyone else. I eventually founded the remaining spot and built a colony on the gems (my only luxury). I acquired iron when Delhi expanded, but did not build a harbor on my outer ring to allow my 2 inner cities to build cheap units for upgrading. When I finally reached the Middle Ages in 950 AD. I quickly shot through half of the MA techs. I had met the Inca when founded my external port city. I realized they were behind the leaders in tech, so when I met Sumer, I bought contact with Alexander before the turn ended and got about 5 extra techs. At this point the world is still in land (or should I say desert) grab mode. When that's complete the Inca will be leaving. I did revolt to Feudalism (my first GOTM expierence in that Government) as it looked like the perfect government for this map.

Let me start by stating that this map is a Nightmare:eek:

Not sure what my initial goal is:

3950 BC: Moved Settler North and skipped the worker turn.
Contact with India: Pottery+10 Gold off India for Bronze working.

With all the discussion about the hut, I find it amusing that Inda popped it right away. :) Evil evil man.:)

3600 BC: Finally founded Seoul. Right by the 4 fish to the south. Fish are in the marsh? Start Writing at maximum.

3200 BC: Since the worker had little to do I scouted around a bit but found nothing. Started clearing marshland.3100 BC: First warrior built

2550 BC: Have reached size 4 in Seoul. Have decided on a warrior rush vs Ghandi so I am working 2 mountains, 2 fish to get a warrior every 2 turns.

2510 BC: Declare on Ghandi. Take a worker that was working on the gold mountain. Start a road back to Seoul.
2470 BC: A spearman is defending Delhi, I forify on the mountain and will attack with about 8 warriors.

2430 BC: Marsh cleared. I wish I hadn't scouted but started clearing the marsh earlier now.
2070 BC: An indian warrior finally attacks my warrior fortified on the mountain and dies horribly.
1990 BC: Peace with Ghandi to get Ceremonial. Get the wheel for writing and immediatly redeclare war. Start on warrior code.
1750 BC: 8 Warriors take out India. Delhi starts on Curragh A Settler in Delhi Yields 2 workers which is nice.
1650 BC: Warrior code complete. (Initially with the intentions of getting archers to take out India.) Start on Map making
1350 BC: Curragh takes out Barbarian Galley.
1325 BC: Curragh takes out 3 Barbarian Galleys. Thank goodness its Warlord!
1275 BC: Elite Curragh continues its rampage taking out another Barb Galley
1250 BC: And Another.
1175 BC: Galley discovers we are completly locked in. Wonderful.
1125 BC: Finished Map making, start Literature.


1000 BC:
- 2 Towns
- 7 Warriors
- 1 Settler
- Bronze, Alphabet, Pottery, Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Writing, Map making.


950 BC: Maya (whoever they are) Completes the Pyramids.
875 BC: Take 25 gold from a barb Camp just in the inner Ring. Was about to found a city on the spot but 1 square NW will have a fish in Range with cultural expansion. So move and wait a turn.
850 BC: Founded PyongYang. Start on a harbour.
825 BC: Finish Literature, start on Iron working.
750 BC: Take Barb camp to the West. Athens completes Collosus.
670 BC: Complete Iron working, Start philosophy.
610 BC: Founded Wonson on the outter part of the "Ring" allowing access to the outside world.


Looks like a future Palace jump may be in order. Wonson starts Galley for contacts.

570 BC: Moving a warrior to the farthest Western mountain yeilds contact with Inca. Sweet.
Get philosophy for just 16 gold since I was only a turn away. Inca are WAY out ahead unfortunately. Inca are already a Monarchy.
510 BC: Complete Masonry. Maya completes Oracle. Start on Mathematics.
410 BC: Complete Mathematics. Start Mysticism.
390 BC: Seoul finishes Settler and now is building up mass archers to prepare for an Incan attack.
310 BC: Celts complete TOA, Dutch complete Mausoleum
350 BC: Founded Pusan to the West. Start Library to get the 3 fish in sight after cultural expansion.
330 BC: Finished Mysticism, start code of laws.
290 BC: Sumeria Completes Hanging Gardens.
210 BC: Code of Laws. Inca doesn't have Republic so start on that. (17 turns though :-/ )

170 BC: Maya Finished Statue of Zeus.
110 BC: Greece Finshes Great Wall.
30 BC: Maya Finishes Great Library.
10 BC: Inca Finishes Great Lighthouse. Galley finally pops out, outside the Ring. Time to go exploring. With 2 archers that is. Galley heads North.

50 AD: Galley is being pursued by 3 Barb Galleys, I run away as I can't afford to lose it without settling somewhere outside.
110 AD: Rush another Galley in Wonson to transport settler outside. Amazingly Get Republic before Inca. Am not able to trade to Tech Parity but am able to get Currency and Construction for Republic + 32 Gold.

130 AD: Didn't need to worry about those Barb Galleys. My galley took out 5 of them.
150 AD: Revolt to Republic. 4 Turns of Anarchy.
170 AD: Inca start Sun Tzu's 8-o.
190 AD: My Wandering Archers Contact Sumeria. BOY are they backwards.

I have: Philosophy, Code of Laws, Literature, Map making, currecny and construction ahead of them. Strangely though, they have horseback and Poly ahead of me.

I Trade Philosophy and Code of laws for Horseback and Polytheism.
Also trade Republic for Monarchy.

Entering the Middle Ages. I draw Engineering as my free tech. Inca won't trade Feudalism for engineering though.

Afterthoughts. A Palace jump won't be used as the Incan land is absolutly aweful.

7Losses' Challenge to the world: If anyone out there can get a sub 1000 AD Conquest Victory I will personally shake your hand. (Yes, I will travel to your country.)

What a map! Thank you Gyathaar. I love it!

I started by moving the settler. As I said I would do on the pre-game thread, when nothing interesting appeared, the worker moved east with the intention of opening the goodie hut. When he met the Indians instead, both units moved towards the center of the map. Seoul was founded south-west of the little lake in 3650BC. The worker started by clearing the swamp.

Build order: Worker-barracks-archer-archer-archer…
Research order: Masonry-Writing-Philosphy-Map making (free tech)-Math

I also gained Pottery, TW, WC, IW and CB from the Indians.

After Math, I started fifty-turn research on Currency while I built up an army to take out the Indians. In 630BC, I ROP raped Gandhi with 8 Archers and 5 Cats (yes, I had built a road to Delhi). It turned out that this was massive overkill as I had no casualties taking 2 spearmen and a warrior quietly.

Later events:

330BC Meet Incas, they are up at least 5 techs on me.
250BC P’yongyang founded on the outside
170BC Seoul turned into a worker factory as we prepare to road the mountains.
190BC Wonson
90BC Pusan. That’s it. There’s no space for any more cities. Unit costs are down to zero though!
50BC Code of Laws. Sapa knows Republic :( I was hoping I could research that for trade purposes. Whip a galley in P’yongyang
30BC And a Harbour in Delhi
10BC Establish embassy with Inca. Sapa only has two spearmen and is building the Gardens with 33 turns to go. Time for my second ROP rape!
70 Amsterdam completes the Gardens. Oh well.
130 Literature
210 Mysticism
270 Horseback Riding, meet Inca
290 A road is finished from Wonsan to P’yongyang, allowing cats to get to the coast.
340 Attack Cuzco with a force of 8 archers and 7 cats, taking the city at the loss of an archer.
340 Polytheism
360 Gems and iron connected; Ica falls; meet Sumerians
420 Generate first leader. We’ll save him for a MDI army
440 Construction and enter ME. Engineering is our free tech. Not bad. Even better it’s a monopoly tech. The others know Republic, Monarchy, Monotheism and Feudalism. But not Engineering! Trades coming up.

Interestingly, my reaction to this map is completely different - it's more of a "screw you, this is stupid". I dunno - it seems to me that Civ is a game of infinite complexity - and this map reduces at least the early game to "find a place to settle, build archers, kill india and move off the island.

What's the point of that? Make sure we are behind the AI?

I don't understand - a monarch game where each AI has 3 cities before you settle, so the beginning is more like demigod or deity, and a warlord game where initial strategy is completely predetermined.

Not sure I am going to play COTM, cause what's the point?

I do understand that many people love these maps and I'm not criticizing, even though it sounds like it. I just don't find it very interesting. You have to either go OCC, or kill the indians.

This game might be interesting to see if you can get a UN vote without knowing any other civilizations (after killing the indians of course).

You have to either go OCC, or kill the indians.

You can't go OCC. I considered this but rejected it because you'll never meet anyone until they arrive at your city gates with bombers.. You have to kill the Indians and get off thei island. After that, you have options.

Interestingly, my reaction to this map is completely different - it's more of a "screw you, this is stupid". I dunno - it seems to me that Civ is a game of infinite complexity - and this map reduces at least the early game to "find a place to settle, build archers, kill india and move off the island.

What's the point of that? Make sure we are behind the AI?

I don't understand - a monarch game where each AI has 3 cities before you settle, so the beginning is more like demigod or deity, and a warlord game where initial strategy is completely predetermined.

Not sure I am going to play COTM, cause what's the point?

I do understand that many people love these maps and I'm not criticizing, even though it sounds like it. I just don't find it very interesting. You have to either go OCC, or kill the indians.

The last 2 maps (including this one) have been very different, since Karasu is away. (I think its the reason at least) Gyathaar is evil, and since he makes maps for SGOTM, he used one of the maps he had planned. Probably for a higher level (although i may have no idea what im saying right now).

You can't go OCC. I considered this but rejected it because you'll never meet anyone until they arrive at your city gates with bombers.. You have to kill the Indians and get off thei island. After that, you have options.


Not necessarily. You could buy contacts because india will probably found a city on the outter ring, they will meet Maya who meet the other Civs.

So a OCC 20K or Diplomatic would be possible. I may try doing just that after I have submitted to see what I can do.

India is not ever going to found a second city. The Incas or the Sumerians will eventually show up after their home continent is full. Probably around 1500 AD.

India is not ever going to found a second city. The Incas or the Sumerians will eventually show up after their home continent is full. Probably around 1500 AD.

India will if you can get them Map Making. I think.

I did. They did nothing with it.

I did. They did nothing with it.

They'd eventually build a galley and transport a settler. I think it also matters if the settling squares are covered by barbs of not.

Abegweit is correct
In my test, I got up to 1700 and the Indians have yet to build another city nor contacted anyone else

I think it might have something to do with unit support and not being able to support a galley so never build it

@7losses

Interesting. I don't think that unit costs are the reason though. In my game, they only had 2 spears and a warrior, yet did absolutely nothing for a thousand years after I gave them mapmaking.

Assaman's theory about barbs might have something to do with it. OTOH, they did the same thing in SGOTM8 where barbs weren't a factor.

Dunno. All I can say is that the AI does not deal with this situation well at all as both this game and SGOTM8 demonstrate.

Another posssiblilty is the AI is just too stupid to do it.

Build order: Worker-barracks-archer-archer-archer…


Hey, that was my build order - at least it was going to be... But a few turns before barracks I saw Indian warrior heading our direction. I gifted India 2gpt just in case, but warrior kept moving towards us.

I gambled on him just exploring, and finished barracks. But next turn he stepped into our capital. :cry: It was 2710BC or something like that, with 32 Jason. :lol:

Looks like a 2nd Red ambulance heading my way.

But the game looked so interesting and I saw so little of it so of course I replayed after submitting. Vow!

I built warrior 1st and then proceed with the original plan. I took out Indians after 3rd attempt: 6 archers failed, then the 2nd wave of 7 archers failed against the same Elite Spear, and the final wave of 10 archers finally finished India.

So I broke to the outside world in 300AD and entered MA in 600AD as nobody would trade anything to me.

Interesting world, but if I played for real I would go to UN - other options seem too exausting.

Another posssiblilty is the AI is just too stupid to do it.No doubt about that! :D The question is why, not if.

I try to pop the hut and meet the lovely Indians. We trade a little bit, gather for a group photograph and that should be our last friendly dialog. It is clear that Delhi has to be taken as soon as possible. Seoul is founded in the only available spot and I build warrior - barracks - settler - archers.

I decide to squeeze in a second city right next to Seoul and so Pyongyang is founded soon. Build order warrior - barracks - archers. I also build workers in between to improve the lands and build roads. They come in handy when it comes to connecting the iron (thanks) and our only luxury, the gems to the very east.

When I gather 5 veteran archers, I summon Gandhi and tell him that his time is over. Delhi is (unlike for other players) easily taken and should be my most productive city in the future.

Then follows a series of bad mistakes on my part. First I try to get the philosophy slingshot and of course I miss it (wonder information keeps popping up and I see that I am way behind). So map making has to be researched myself. Then I found city number four on the spot available N of Delhi. Stupid enough I do not see the fish and found it on the SE hill. Then I do not see the spot to the very W where we can settle and explore further. For some turns I think there is no way out of our miserable mountain prison and start building infrastructure.

So trying to get back on track. I abandon city number four and refound it on the spot where it can reach the fish after expansion. I build some infrastructure in Delhi and Seoul and keep producing military in the other cities for my first encounter with the outside world. I build cities number five and six on the two last spots on the outer mountain range.

Now I am ready for the world. A harbour and a galley are built and I send my army (not very impressive, around 5 to 10 swordsmen) over to meet the Incas. While I am pounding on the Incans, I also greet the Sumerians. Both are kind of backwards (judging from the wonder information and the techs they will not trade to me). They also have some horrible lands and I think for the time being I will stick with my capital in Seoul.

I walk over the Incans fairly easily and I already know that my next target will be the Sumerians. During the war with the Incas I manage to extort some of the techs and also trade with the Sumerians so that I finally reach the MA.

My main problem at the moment is the total lack of a strategy and that I am a lousy player with bad starting conditions. What is also very annoying is that I did not get one single leader yet. This although most of the troops I send to the Incas are elite (thanks to the barbs). This means that progress is somewhat slow as none of my units can move two steps in enemy lands.

Sorry that my notes are not really well ordered. They may even be inaccurate at some points as I did not take notes (I was too busy cursing the map designer) and this is more or less how I recall my game.

Seoul is founded in the only available spot ...
Only available? Am I the only one to have settled two towns in the allotted starting area? Sure I was forced to settle on one of the fish (after clearing the marsh), but I figured the extra town would be worth it.

Played a fast and sloppy game up to the MA, and I don't think I'll have time to finish it. Nevertheless, I think this was a great map!! :thumbsup:
I can't understand the complaints saying that we've been lead by the nose in our strategy. Indeed we have, up until a certain point, but the real game starts once you get out. The start is - as someone noted - intended to make sure that we're behind the AI, and to see how we can handle that. This game is thus very different from most other XOTMs we play, and a welcome distraction from the usual city placement maximisation games.

As I said I settled two towns in the start area. Both built barracks and I captured Delhi in 630 BC with 9 archers (Offa's simulator said >90% capture chance at 9), although it took only 3 to do the job. Guess I was playing it a bit too safe...
In 450 BC the barbies on the outer ring uprise, signalling the beginning of the MA (alas not for me). In 330 BC I had Republic established, thus greatly improving the productivity of my three towns. Second guessing the map designer, I sent archers to be offloaded at various points along the outer ring, with emphasis on the far west, and sure enough there the only possible place of contact with the outside was. In 170 BC I had cleared enough barbies to step to the far end and meet the Incas, who had all AA techs already (so much for my rush towards Lit for trading).

In 90 BC - 50 BC I settled three towns on the ring, running Seoul as a 4-turn settler pump. First galley was rushed and sailed out in 30 BC, and my first desert town Cheju was founded in 70 AD. I sailed around the ring, sending archers across whereever I could. In 150 AD, one of them meets the Sumerians, who are also MA already. I then decided to buy my way into the MA for gpt, while building up swords for an invasion of the Incas.

As I noted previously, I don't think I'll have time to finish this game.

Only available? Am I the only one to have settled two towns in the allotted starting area. Sure I was forced to settle on one of the fish (after clearing the marsh), but I figured the extra town would be worth it.


My account was not so precise regarding this, but I also put in a second town there after clearing the marsh. However, I am not really sure if this was worth it.

I think 4 turns for settler and -2 citizens too big price. Better IMHO - 8 turns +2swordsmen, no lost citizen. And let 2-3 swordsmen captured 2-3 cities, before will be killed. It is more optimal way on this map.

I think it's interesting to see that despite many of us taking a very similar strategy (archers, then Delhi) there are very different levels of success. I limped into the MA in 900AD. I notice that some people got there as fast as around 300AD. It just shows that the best players can lever a significant advantage even in scenarios where strategy is tightly restricted. Also I dimly recall someone mentioning that they failed with their first two attempts to capture Delhi but still beat me to the MA by 300 years even though my first 8 archer attack was successful. How on earth did that happen?

basically similar strategy as most others. i founded two cities in the middle. yes i found on the fish, but together the two cities have more citizens than the one could have had alone. i produced two addition workers fairly early.

i started research on warrior code, thinking i'd be making a fast attack on india. i didn't attack them until 750BC, and i had trade for iron already. i did get the republic slingshot in 1425BC and two turns later i was a republic. i should have gone straight for the slingshot, warrior code so early was a waste.

QSC stats
2 towns
13 pop
3 workers
5 archers
2 barracks

230BC enter the middle ages. discover monotheism as free tech.

QSC not good...
1 city
8 citizen
3+1 workers
1 warrior (home)
2 archer
1 spearment

Republic from philo at 1475, 1375 gov=rep, no change latter
War with India long time.
Main idea - spearment on mountains has big bonus and kill 10-15 indian units.
Final war - 530BC. 2 archers+1 spearment take delhi.
Seuol build GL at 370 DC, Delhi 1 galley.
Next contact - 840AD - Incan. Complete economics, 22 swordsman, 5 spearment, 4 galley.
1000AD
17 city
81 citizen
3+4 workers
1 warrior (home)
1 archer
8 spearment
26 swordsman
17 tech

1090AD - MA from GL 8 new tech
1100AD from GL next 10 new tech

I think it's interesting to see that despite many of us taking a very similar strategy (archers, then Delhi) there are very different levels of success. I limped into the MA in 900AD. I notice that some people got there as fast as around 300AD. It just shows that the best players can lever a significant advantage even in scenarios where strategy is tightly restricted. Also I dimly recall someone mentioning that they failed with their first two attempts to capture Delhi but still beat me to the MA by 300 years even though my first 8 archer attack was successful. How on earth did that happen?This is a game where the point in which you enter the Middle Ages is far less important than normal. Research is catch up all the way. Consequently, those who managed to find something useful to trade with the AI will have a far better date than those who were unlucky enough to have nothing useful. It remains that the limitation is production capacity, not research rate. No horses=no knights. Swords + cats are not that much worse than MDI + trebs, especially since the enemy doesn't have any iron.

My main peeve in my game was than the Sumerians got the Great Wall, not the exact date I entered the MA or my bad luck in research choices. It would have made little difference if I had entered the MA a thousand years before. After all, I had managed to make exactly one swordsman before I knew feudalism.

Gyathaar you have it if mhttp://www.civfanatics.comy.
and maybe other not easy making

diplomatic
India 1870 kill with 3 archers :sniper:
Inca founded 850bc
3 turns anarchy
600bc republic
I making form Delhi a big city with match shield mine and make a way to the iron by Delhi. :dance:


I coming by the Inca and the Inca have a evil land ship :mad:
Inca have more informatics than my :rotfl:
I going to the territory by the Inca
And I making cities there
I build in the a harbor and than a library

Swords + cats are not that much worse than MDI + trebs, especially since the enemy doesn't have any iron.
[...]
I had managed to make exactly one swordsman before I knew feudalism.

I do believe there's quite a difference in this game between getting Feudalism and getting Monotheism as freebie.

Early Highlights for me:

My very first and only warrior hurled himself into a volcano, Delhi resisted many assaults, and only fell when I had built a road and several catapults. Delhi should have been named Cork btw. used the cats to build a ship.

Barbarians were able to recruit massive amounts of suicide bombers and hold on to the only place to escape to the outside world. eventually it fell to my settler ;)

By the time I met the Inca's and started doing some horse trading I was behind by about an era. You know you are behind when at your first contact with a Civ the AI shows up wearing a tuxedo.