I've just had a long streak of starts Emperor level where I don't get Copper anywhere near my capital. As it stands, I just abandon those games until I get a start with Copper, since without it I feel I'm either a sitting duck or severly tech-gimped because I then have to research Hunting -> Archery or Animal Husbandry (hoping there are Horses around) or wait a LONG time for Iron Working instead of the usual Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet -> tech trading festival thingy.

Any advice? Is the lack of Copper a game-breaker or just a red herring? Can Archers and Chariots really replace Axemen? Or is the wait for an early Iron Working acceptable?

Not having access to copper really sucks, usually I quit too since it just is not fun for me. But I have played one game without it before. It depends on your situation. I played one monarch game without copper or iron, and with a source of horses that I just barely was able to expand out to. You get threatened a lot, and you will most likely have to fight an embarrassing war that will culminate in your humiliation... but you can bounce back from it with a smaller economy.

After I fought said embarrassment war with the Greeks when I lost two cities (one in a peace agreement), Barbarians sacked my country with axemen afterwords and most of my units were killed. My position after both events was so bad that I ended up adopting pacifism just because I could. I then adopted caste system and eventually received two great artists, one of which I used to get my city back culturally. That city had ivory and I was able to bounce back with war elephants and shove it up Alexander's pie hole.

Not every game is perfect, but that's why it can be fun to play it out.

I don't play on your level, but quitting cuz you don't have copper seems kinda lame. Fight it out, find a way to win :)

Archers really can replace Axemen, at least for defense.

If you want to rush your neighbor you will have to go for Iron Working or Horseback Riding.

Chariots? You get horses on a regular basis? I seem to run about 50% in my games. It's gotten to where I don't even know how to use them, in comparison to all the other Ancient units, and hardly ever play the Mongols or Persia.
The barbarians are less of an issue, now that I've learned how to manage a larger empire well, and improved my 'fog busting' placement of archers. At least on Standard maps (the largest my poor system can handle), the AI expands so fast that I'll see maybe a Barbarian Axeman or two all game. Now, the AI, OTOH, that's different; if you aren't building Archers, I'd expect to be attacked-- using Warriors to defend your cities is putting a big "attack me now" sign on your back, near as I can tell. Easy for me to say, playing on Noble, but I can't think of Archery as too much of a detour.

I don't think no copper is a deal-breaker at high levels but it definatley hurts. IMO you still need to continue along the research paths that you would have if you found copper but try to get IW a little bit earlier. I don't try wars without copper on high levels. If I don't have copper or iron that's pretty much a give up for me on Monarch or Emperor.

Try the balanced map script - you should always have copper closeby.

Lack of copper is not the 'end of it all'. I'm actually happy if no copper appears next to my city after discovering bronze working, as the chances are that iron might.

Iron is much more important - for swordsmen (especially for early attack or counter strike), knights and future ironworks etc.

If you do not get either then it's pretty much a game breaker (at emperor and above).

I usually make sure that I got a settler ready to pop when I'm about to discover Iron Working, as he will head for the spot with iron to claim it.

Cheers

Edit: I forgot to mention that if I am without copper, that doesn't mean I go straight for Iron working - unless I got gold/siver hills. I'd usually get pottery, make improvements around my initial citie(s), and try to get the commerce up so that it cuts down on I/working research time.
Getting to Alphabet is not important in my games, I often stop at Writing and head for the religious techs, trying to get courthouses asap.
AIs come to me if they want to trade, as they will often go and research Alphabet before me.
This is not a 'religious' tech progression, it all depends on the atmosphere of that specific game, if I got an aggressive AI next door etc etc.

Try this: open World Builder, remove all copper from anywhere you might get to it, and ADD copper to all of your neighbors.

If you can't manage with that, then yes, you're stuck in a rut. Strategically, I mean. Doesn't matter the skill level, either... that's not what I'm talking about.

Wodan

That's actually a good idea, Wodan. You trade access to copper for valuable information: that you don't have it, that others do, and info on the whereabouts of the AI. To be fair, maybe you'd also have to add that your first two researched techs would be mining and bronze.

I recently had a game with no copper, iron, horses, elephants or much of anything really. But I had a good sized island to myself and lots of coastline. This meant a bunch of coastal cities, Lighthouses and plenty of commerce. At Astronomy, I whipped to produce enough wood Navy to repell attackers. I sat with Archers as defenders and never got any further. Established a Caste System and got a cultural victory in the 1870s. So you don't really need those nice resources, you just need to figure out how to use what you have.

I believe that gamespeed and mapsize also play a role. Playing on a huge map on marathon speed, having no copper anywhere in sight really is a gamebreaker for me. You get far more barbarians on marathon, and they will run down your fogbusters eventually. Without any units actually capable of defeating the barbarians, you're lost.
I actually had it yesterday, playing as Elisabeth. No copper, went for animal farming. Had horses nearby, was able to built a city there, but before I could really hook up the horses, that city was beleagered by barbarians, while my capital was overrun by them. Ah well, at least I got to bed in time for a change :)

I've just had a long streak of starts Emperor level where I don't get Copper anywhere near my capital.

If you're just wanting a fun game, go ahead and restart. Why play a game that will be more work than fun, if it is fun you're looking for? However, if you're in the mood for a challenge, bless your lucky stars that you got a no-copper start. For me, those are ultimately some of the most enjoyable games.

Emperor kills me every time, so I can't say about games on that level, but on Monarch/Marathon I've managed to win games with no copper and no iron, even with raging barbs. It isn't easy, at all! It is possible, though. It is *much* more work, and less fun, but winning is that much more gratifying. I actually learned how to handle a no-copper, no-iron start by studying the AI tactics. Those tactics, with a couple of tweaks, are ideal for weak start positions. The most important factor is your power rating. For the first half of the game, your only mission should be to keep a decent power rating while avoiding war as much as possible.

Assuming standard barbs, the two most important tips I have for a no-copper start are: 1) Whip a granary, 2) Whip a barracks. You're going to need lots of archers, and they need the city defense promotion. You won't have time to build either the granary or the barracks the slow way, and both are important enough to whip. When you can, build a wall the slow way. Get a worker out early to start improving the capital. Chop a worker/settler combo to settle another city site, then have the second city do the same to get a third.

Ever notice how the AIs build lots of promoted archers early in the game? And how their power scores climb? You now have to do the same. If you don't, you will quickly fall to the bottom of the power chart and everyone will start picking on you. When that happens, you'll be able to replace losses at about the rate that you lose them, but that does nothing but keep you at the bottom of the pack. You need to accumulate enough archers, fortified in your capital, to spike your power rating enough to keep others from attacking you in the first place. The combination of wall and promoted/fortified archers will be the basis of your power rating.

Once you've got a decent power rating, you're going to have to play a peaceful game for a long time. Even if you have no copper and no iron, there are units in each era that don't require any special resources to build. Focus on these, and on getting Barracks/Vassalage/Theocracy (and Heroic Epic if you've seen enough combat to be able to build it).

Most AIs will heavily defend their capital, and lightly defend their other cities. Doing the same will allow you to run Hereditary Rule and you won't have to worry about happiness because of the stack of troops in your capital. Another benefit of Hereditary Rule is that some of the more aggressive AIs have that civic as their favorite. If you're running HR, they will like you more, and may attack your neighbor instead of you.

Assign defensive units the city defense promotion, and all other units the +10% strength promotions. Varying from this will hurt you. Early on, because of the natural progression of unit types that proliferate during those periods, you'll be tempted to assign +25% vs. archers, and later +25% vs. melee. Don't do it! The purpose of your military is not to attack with, but to discourage aggressors. If you're successful, you will end up keeping/upgrading the same troops throughout the first half of the game. Later, you'll be glad you didn't choose promotions that became obsolete. Assigning only the basic promotions will allow you more flexibility in the gunpowder era when you need it the most, as this is probably when you'll be ready to go on the offensive. You'll have strong units that can still specialize with their next promotion.

Once you start building things other than units, remember to keep checking the power rating and producing another military unit every once in a while to keep from falling behind in power. This can cause you to drop your science slider lower than you would like, but this is not optional. In this situation, an early war means a lost game.

Depending on your style of play you may be able to keep a relatively peaceful game or you could eventually go for cavalry and go on the offensive. Your game, your style of play, your choice. This will at least allow you that choice about mid-game.

I've kept this strategy as general as possible, so that it can apply to any leader and playing style. It has worked for me with a variety of leaders and should give you a decent base to build upon. The first half of the game has to be peaceful, as you don't have the military muscle to do otherwise. You also have very little choice about early civics, meaning your favorite starting strategy might not be possible with such a start. About halfway through the game you'll be able to take stock of the situation and decide on how to proceed, but until then you have to pretend you're an AI. :)

Playing with no nearby copper can be challenging, and has a profound effect on opening strategy, but is certainly no reason to automatically restart the game. At least on Monarch, no copper is not a game killer. It can make for a very, very satisfying win when all is said and done.

Edit: Reading back over this, I wondered "Why are my posts always book-length?"

^^^THIS is exactly what i'm talking about :) All about thinking outside the box, adapting, winning!

Edit: Reading back over this, I wondered "Why are my posts always book-length?"

A) Because you usually have good advice.
and B) you need to hire an editor

Besides copper and iron, horses are also very good. :) I've won an immortal game with a horse archer rush on a duel map. :cool:

Side note: Anybody knows why the horse models are mutated, at least on my PC and some other pics I've seen, having 2 heads on the same body? :eek:

Once in a while the debate of cheating in single player game emerges. Even intelligent design vs. evolution makes a more meaningful debate... :cool:

You can survive quite well without copper. In fact, as others said, the lack of copper often means you WILL have iron nearby, which is far more critical.

I've played a few games with no copper resource at all, and the only effect was that it took a lot longer to build the Colossus & Statue of Liberty.

Probably the most annoying game I played was one where I started without horses. Then, well into the Renaissance, I discovered a pair of uninhabited islands with horses, just off the coast of my capital city. Just in time for Cavalry, too. :goodjob:

Cooper is not big deal, especially if you are not next to your neybors.
If you did not get cooper = just mean no early rush. Defend, deter attackers develop. There many ways to jump start your tech early in game, use them.

Ofcouse if your main and only strat is early war, then you will have problems.

A) Because you usually have good advice.
and B) you need to hire an editor

LOL! Thanks. :)