View Full Version : What should I do?


The Lardossen
Apr 12, 2006, 12:53 PM
I've attached a saved game. Up this point I'm on tech parity with the foremost AI, I still earn +37 gp per turn whilst maintaining a rate of 100% science. The three biggest AI's are all on Confucianism, which I founded. All well.

Usually I'd REX and then become so big I could outtech and outproduce the AI, if I would be lucky. This time I got a small land area with some good and some less good cities and A LOT of income. Not my usual game, but it still seems interesting enough to try to win it.

I don't think I can win space race, so I have to win before the AI does so. Especially if Egypt and Mongolia tumble to their own religions, thus damage our good relations, so finding the UN is a gamble.

I never done a cultural victory, so I'm not sure if it's too late to do that or I should just turn up the slider and lean back.

I could try to go for Rifling, and then declare war on Egypt as soon as I got it, upgrade all units - at least the ones on that border - to Riflemen, watch Egypt commit suicide on my superior fortified units, and then use whatever I've produced to invade Egypt. Maybe Rome wants to join in after a few turns, he shouldn't get too much cities because AI just can't do attacks across water right, but it will distract Egypt enough to get me through the difficult first phases of battle. Mongolia is already too big and shouldn't get extra land and cities off Egypt, so I wouldn't ask him.

Risky, and the AI might get too close to launching space ships before I get any profit out of it but it probably could help me winning a UN victory.

The Lardossen
Apr 12, 2006, 04:14 PM
Any tips? I see everyone disagrees with the space ship (I can get into that) and the war option uptil now?

The Lardossen
Apr 13, 2006, 04:07 AM
I shouldn't have included the poll :(

MrCynical
Apr 13, 2006, 08:10 AM
This is going to be a difficult setup to win from. You have very little military, and Egypt isn't going to sucide enouh of its units attacking you to give you much chance of conquering them. You don't have enough of a tech lead over your other neighbours to have any chance of beating them.

It's already too late for cultural victory as you don't have three strong cultral cities, and it's too late to set them up. Diplomatic I can't see you winning despite your religious bonuses, since Cyrus will be the other candidate even if you can build the UN, and will get all the positive diplo modifiers for religion as well. Space race is going to be a very long shot, even though you are currently well up on tech, as your production base is very weak, and I'm not convinced you can hold the tech lead.

Conquest is probably your best shot, but even that isn't promising. You need far more units, even if you do upgrade to rifles to present a credible threat to Egypt, let alone the other civs you'll need to beat.

I've had a fair look at your game and I can see a few places where you went badly wrong on strategy.

1)City Improvements:
Although some of your cities are building wonders and universities they are still lacking the most basic improvements. None of them have forges or granaries which are probably the first things that should be built unless urgent culture is necessary. Almost all of your cities are coastal, but none of them have lighthouses, rendering all your sea tiles useless. These improvements are cheap to build (and the forge will let you build everything else 25% faster so it will soon repay the investment). Your land is very food poor so you can't afford to lose all your food on each growth cycle by not building a granary. Some of your cities have health problems which the granary would also help with. You have very few cottages, and indeed don't have the food for many, so the sea is a good source of commerce. This needs lighthouses though. You'd do well to rethink the order you build city improvements in.

2)Wonders
The Spiral Minaret is worth having, but you're unlikely to complete the Taj Mahal at the slow pace you currently have. The city building it would do much better building the improvements I've mentioned above. I'm similarly dubious about building the Hermitage as you're not going to make any cultural gains.

3)Civics:
Your civics could use some adjustment to make the most of what you have. Free Speech may be better than Bureaucracy if you need any cultural boost. Slavery is better than Serfdom at the moment as your workers have nothing useful left to do, and Serfdom costs more to maintain than Slavery. Free Market is always better than Decentralization (ignore Mercantilism, it's usually detrimental), and you can get a good commerce boost by switching to it. There's nothing to be gained by switching to hereditary rule, so I'd stay on Despotism until you get a better alternative. You urgently need city improvements, so Organized Religion is the best religious civic.

It might be possible to salvage this game, but you'd be in a vastly stronger position if you'd built some good city improvements earlier on.

cabert
Apr 13, 2006, 08:45 AM
i can't look at the same right now, but if (you didn't give date/turns!) you're far in the game with not too much cities, and weak production space race is out and cultural is out too, if i read well what MrCynical writes (one main religion isn't enough, you need a whole lot of them, and a bunch of towns, all this backed with massive army, since you're going to be outteched)!
diplomatic can be tricky, even with big population, so with little population it's going nowhere

That leaves with only domination (or conquest) possible : start building units!

Cam_H
Apr 13, 2006, 10:18 AM
I'm not sure that a Cultural isn't without some prospect. There are five religions within the empire, and a concerted effort could see Bombay, Delhi and Madras get there. It's not without hope that Tabriz and Byblos could both flip with enough cultural pressure, and the 'ninth' city could be either a junk city on the desert to the south-east of Delhi, or you could gamble on either Pi-Ramesses or Heliopolis also flipping from the pressure of Bombay if injected appropriately ... whether indeed a seventh, eighth, and ninth city is needed at all for that 'third Cathedral'.

I do however whole-heartedly agree with Mr. C's assessment on 1) and 3), and the general need to defend your position better. Frankly I doubt the success of a war with Egypt, let alone Persia at any point soon, and I'd expect the Romans to cause trouble sooner or later ... and even that's provided you can keep Mongolia on-side. Taking Tabriz by force is another diametrically opposed option that you'd have to consider judiciously.

My vote goes with Cultural.

Cam_H
Apr 13, 2006, 10:01 PM
Cultural win! A defensive pact with Persia helped stave off troubles for much of the game.

RemoWilliams
Apr 13, 2006, 10:31 PM
This is going to be a difficult setup to win from. You have very little military.... [snip exhaustive (helpful) commentary]

I was ROFL with this post MrCynical. You definitely hit the nail on the head, and I don't think you intended it to be funny, but your manner of fact way of explaining just how wrong the game was got more and more funny as you went along anyway.

To the OP, you would do very well to read and re-read MrCynical's analysis. It was excellent.

Smokey McDope
Apr 14, 2006, 02:52 PM
Without reading the rest: think for yourself, make a decision, try it, and if it doesn't work then you've learned something.

RemoWilliams
Apr 14, 2006, 04:25 PM
Without reading the rest: think for yourself, make a decision, try it, and if it doesn't work then you've learned something.

With all due respect Mr McDope, I think he would do very well to read a lot on these forums. There's no way I would be at the level of play I'm at now if it hadn't been for the forums.

For me, it was a balance, I would read a lot and not understand all of it, play awhile and it started falling into place, go back and read for awhile and even re-read stuff, and it would all make more sense the second time around.

The one problem with this approach is that for any given strategy, you can find at the very least two people who will say that the opposite strategy is superior, or if there is no opposite, a different strategy altogether. In this case, you try out both and see which fits your play style.

Edit: one caveat.... with 1.61, a lot of the strategy guides and tips posted here are obsolete. Particularly the ones that advocate use of a demented chainsaw army from hell. Which is almost all of the guides, unfortunately. So maybe you shouldn't read anything after all. Oh, I'm so confused!

Gumbolt
Apr 14, 2006, 04:57 PM
hmmm Emperor setting. Tough setting. 6 cities science at 100% and an extra 34 gold a turn with 2300+ in bank. Well you got the economy sorted. That Religion seems to have paid for your empire.

Hmmm cyrus has you out gunned. Egypt too. You had copper at start so having an early war might of done wonders. Pity that cash in bank is limited in use. Lots of upgrades? Where are the pyramids when needed.

Hmmm your third city seemed slow in coming after bombay at 2880BC.

Cultural probably worth a shot if you can spread enough religion just prey no AI attacks you. Although 9 cities is ideal for that. Looks like someone on forum has already done that. WTG

The Lardossen
Apr 15, 2006, 05:07 AM
Sorry guys, I have been busy overworking the last few days (and I'm going to work right now again....), but I'll defenitely look in close to the cultural victory option.

Hmmm your third city seemed slow in coming after bombay at 2880BC.

I founded a city a little further away to seal off that landmass from Cyrus. Also I founded Oracle and Stonehenge pretty quickly. I really didn't know he had this much space for himself, usually I stunt an AI's grow badly by doing that. Making it a prime target for secondary land expansion.

Gumbolt
Apr 15, 2006, 08:20 AM
Perhaps 3-4 cities before the wonders? I know emperor is harder with more barbs and stuff but if these arrive in 2000bc you want to max out cities before then keeping the pesky animals at bay.

Great the poll now has three options all tied. A great help........................not.

The Lardossen
Apr 15, 2006, 09:52 AM
Cultural win! A defensive pact with Persia helped stave off troubles for much of the game.

Just found time to look at it....whooow! That's a close finish! Persia has 46% of all population! What a massacre he did! :eek:

But if I went for cultural from the beginning, having built forges, granaries and lighthouses earlier, and would have spread other religions more in my empire it wouldn't be such a close call, would it?

Also a bad decision on my behalf to open up that borders before I took all possible locations for cities.

The Lardossen
Apr 15, 2006, 09:52 AM
Perhaps 3-4 cities before the wonders? I know emperor is harder with more barbs and stuff but if these arrive in 2000bc you want to max out cities before then keeping the pesky animals at bay.

Great the poll now has three options all tied. A great help........................not.

Yes, sure, but the only one thus far that is proven to work is cultural.

Cam_H
Apr 15, 2006, 01:11 PM
Just found time to look at it....whooow! That's a close finish! Persia has 46% of all population! What a massacre he did! :eek:
Cyrus was either going to be a fearful enemy or a great friend. I was also wary of Caesar and Kublai Khan, and had to juggle diplomacy as best I could given the frail state of the Indian army. I mirrored Cyrus' religious conversions until he went to Free Religion, at which point I figured that swapping to Caesar's Judaism would take some of the sting out of our less-than-friendly relationship. The defensive pact with Persia and getting The Kremlin (vers. 1.52) allowed me to relatively quickly and securely undertake the spread of religions.

But if I went for cultural from the beginning, having built forges, granaries and lighthouses earlier, and would have spread other religions more in my empire it wouldn't be such a close call, would it?I'm not really sure what you went through to get to the point you did, however it would seem that you did a really good job at spreading Confucism, and picked up a few handy Wonders as well. The spread of Confucism helped both financially and diplomatically.

I don't understand how you came to declare war on Rome, but I'd imagine you had your reasons.

Also a bad decision on my behalf to open up that borders before I took all possible locations for cities.I guess the up-side of having open borders early-ish would probably have been the earlier spread of religions from other tribes, which is crucial.

While you don't want to rely on cities flipping, rogue cities of foreign tribes that are detached from their main empire appear quite prone to flipping over to you if you do pursue Cultural. As it happened in my game; Persia's Bactra and Egypt's Bylbos both flipped, Heliopolis had already undergone an Indian revolt and was clearly not far from joining, and Mongolia's Tabriz would have flipped too if Cyrus didn't kill it first. Therefore, while you might kick yourself for allowing the competition to set up cities just beyond the fringes of your cultural borders, there's every chance that you'll swallow them up at some later point without diplomatic problems and often financial problems (from 'early expansion') if you have culturally 'Influential' cities. If you were aiming for a Cultural win from the outset, I guess you might have been more mindful of founding (or planning to capture) your nine cities.