Im happy about the patch except this one thing...

Chopping now gives 20 hammers. This will hurt early game for me a lot. :cry:

i just tested it

right next to city chop gave 13 hammers and one tile away gave 16

????????

Well, it was a little overpowered before. It was annoying that all forests were clearcut by the Medieval Age. Besides, you can get 30 production from them with Mathematics.

You have to admit that it was a crutch.

I never liked the idea of being able to chop-rush settlers anyway. What's the point of having cities growing slowly while producing a settler if you can simply rush it ?

I'm glad. This will lead to different strategies. Before, it almost always made sense to chop early and often.

i just tested it

right next to city chop gave 13 hammers and one tile away gave 16

????????

The debate about the "nerf" aside, why do we see these differences?

I'm glad. This will lead to different strategies. Before, it almost always made sense to chop early and often.

Exactly, and that's why I like it. I'm now more likely to go with a random civ, because I was so concerned with getting to bronze working, every time, ASAP. Now it should be more driven by what the land is like and what resources are near.

Also note that chopping appears to take 50% more worker turns.

Once you research Mathematics it's back to 30 hammers per forest, same as pre-patch.

I haven't figured out how distance affects this number though. It used to be that chopping anywhere within your cultural borders gave the same amount. Wonder if this is still true...

Splendid :)

It was annoying that all forests were clearcut by the Medieval Age.

Does this mean the AIs won't chop as much? Since the AIs are really smart (or may be they are just a good bean counter), they would probably save their forests until Mathematics for optimal chops. Of course, this probably means more power to us. Just get to Iron Working,..., then go conquer the AIs and we would have new forests to chop.

I think I smell another exploit coming this way.;)

I'm glad. This will lead to different strategies. Before, it almost always made sense to chop early and often.

Nothing will change. ;)

The same strategy is still a sound one. An early production boost will give you a better start.

Nothing will change. ;)

The same strategy is still a sound one. An early production boost will give you a better start.

Perhaps.

But some of the best players were already waiting to research BW, depending on the circumstances and the civ. This change will give them even less incentive to prioritize chops.

Chopping is not the only way to go. At least that's what the GOTM results show.

Nothing will change. ;)

The same strategy is still a sound one. An early production boost will give you a better start.

Yes, but when does that boost come -- at Bronze Working, or Mathematics? The choice is yours...

Yes, but when does that boost come -- at Bronze Working, or Mathematics? The choice is yours...

Why not do them both! If you are playing at the Marathon speed, go for Bronze Working first so you can pre-chop your own forests while waiting for Mathematics. Once you have Mathematics, rush your army to take over the AI forests.

Does this mean the AIs won't chop as much? Since the AIs are really smart (or may be they are just a good bean counter), they would probably save their forests until Mathematics for optimal chops. Of course, this probably means more power to us. Just get to Iron Working,..., then go conquer the AIs and we would have new forests to chop.

I think I smell another exploit coming this way.;)
AFAICT the AI is completely dumb when it comes to forests. I have never seen them chop for production. The only time an AI appears to chop a forest is when they are building an improvement on the tile... usually a farm :rolleyes:

I like the change to chopping - it makes it less overpowered in the very early stages, which will help chopaholics like me more readily consider openings other than chop every tree in sight immediately (exaggerating, but not by much, and I don't alway chop immediately, but almost always, which is bad enough). Yet, chopping can still pickup steam with mathematics and the other means for boosting production rushing so it hasn't been completely obliterated.

If anything, there will be MORE strategy involved with chopping now since pre-math chops could be a boost but will be less effective and this factor might alter your decision making. More strategic options = goodness.

No your all wrong. Chopping has been severly nerfed i just tested it and it is now underpowered!

The first forest outside my capital did not give 20 hammers but instead gave 13 hammers and this decreases even more by every tile further from the city. I do not think that is balanced but rather way underpowered. This would not be a big deal if settlers did not cost so much in civ4 but they do.

Land will be grabbed up too fast by the AI on difficulties higher then noble making prince and above harder then to my tastes. :mad:

I blame the forum for posting so many chopping articles on chopping. :mischief: :mischief:

Least financial got its wings clipped too. Half price banks gone. I guess if you dont like the new patch settings no one is forcing you to use the patch.

For me i see chopping stone henge and the oracle as a obstacle pending on techs. I wonder too if everyone will be able to get the pyramids everytime. Even with stone or marble it may not be cut and dry on some wonders.

So are you all updated? If not will you update?

No your all wrong. Chopping has been severly nerfed i just tested it and it is now underpowered!

The first forest outside my capital did not give 20 hammers but instead gave 13 hammers and this decreases even more by every tile further from the city.
They give 20 hammers on normal speed. 13 is on quick speed.
Land will be grabbed up too fast by the AI on difficulties higher then noble making prince and above harder then to my tastes.
So what? Pick the difficulty that suits your skill. There's no shame in playing Noble now when you used to play Prince.

Edit: Amen to the post below; well put.

The new chopping is NOT underpowered. People who have gotten accustomed to using chopping as a crutch, well, they'll have a problem. However, there is now actually a reason to keep your forests around, at least early on. The point of Civ is having to make strategy decisions, and having forest chopping be vastly overpowered gets rid of that opportunity.

Land will be grabbed up too fast by the AI on difficulties higher then noble making prince and above harder then to my tastes.

Would you rather play on a high difficulty and "cheat" or play on a lower difficulty? I would prefer the latter.

The new chopping is NOT underpowered. People who have gotten accustomed to using chopping as a crutch, well, they'll have a problem. However, there is now actually a reason to keep your forests around, at least early on. The point of Civ is having to make strategy decisions, and having forest chopping be vastly overpowered gets rid of that opportunity.



Would you rather play on a high difficulty and "cheat" or play on a lower difficulty? I would prefer the latter.

Chopping was not cheating because it was part of the game. If using any advantage is cheating by your definition then i dont see how you could win at all.

If 30 hammers per chop was valid because it was "part of the game" then 20 hammers per chop is no less valid now.

30 or 20 doesn't matter much to me.

Chopping was not cheating because it was part of the game. If using any advantage is cheating by your definition then i dont see how you could win at all.
Notice the "cheat" in quotation marks. That means he was not using the word literally.

If 30 hammers per chop was valid because it was "part of the game" then 20 hammers per chop is no less valid now.

30 or 20 doesn't matter much to me.

But my point is its not 20 hammers.

On normal it is actually 13 hammers and it gets even less then that in the city radius. Thats why i find it underpowered.

On normal it is actually 13 hammers and it gets even less then that in the city radius. Thats why i find it underpowered.
What? I'm pretty sure it is 13 on Quick, 20 on Normal, and that it becomes less OUTSIDE the city radius (or cultural borders, not sure which now. It was cultural borders pre-patch)

Hmm...
Do I smell withdrawal crisis from chopping junkies?

The chop yield is reduced by distance (more than in v1.52---anything outside the fat cross has a penalty), and it is also reduced by an extra 33% if outside your cultural boundaries.

Hmm...
Do I smell withdrawal crisis from chopping junkies?
Smell? It's blatantly obvious :D

I was surprised in my early introductions to this game how strong chopping for settlers or workers was...

I am not surprised it got nerfed... it still makes sence to chop a few trees now and then for a bit of a production boost or to help the defence of a city by making it harder for attackers to defend themselves... (which is what happened in history)

A new quote should be added with every patch just like when you find a new tech ingame...

the quote for this patch? "The only thing constant is Change"

a cookie goes to the person who finds who it was from...

Sun Tzu???????

As someone who pulled out a massive wonder game not long ago using the chop-whore strategy, I would like to say this about the change to chopping:

Good for them!

Chopping was stupid. I'm glad that its effectiveness has been reduced. I now see it as something that is only worth doing to speed up settlers, not for wonders. I hope to figure out a way to actually play this weekend to try this change out.

Greek philosopher Heraclitus had it: "There is nothing permanent except change."
Over time, that's turned into, "The only thing that's constant is change."

Greek philosopher Heraclitus had it: "There is nothing permanent except change."
Over time, that's turned into, "The only thing that's constant is change."
Correct! In Greek it's "Ta panta rei", which means "everything flows" (nothing stays constant).

He also said another thing that could be useful to CivFans:

"War is the father of everything"

(In Greek, "Patir panton polemos").

Hummmph...

Chopping has hardly been touched..I was thinking peeps meant 20 hammers on marathon (only lvl I play) when in fact its now 60 hammers..which is only 1/3 less then before...and this you get back to "full power" chopping with discovery of mathematics (why?)

Not a happy camper, I hoped it to be reduced to a token amount like 20 hammers on marathon to start with then upgrades with tech like steam power or replaceable parts...Mathematics (bah)..

Advisor : Now we have discovered mathematics sire , we can produce much more wood from clearing forests.
King : Why? Are not the woods the same as before..
Advisor: Ah but with mathematics sire, we have also discovered a new method called "accounting", so where before there were 2 trees, now there are 3...one day this will lead directly towards something called "Political Spin"
King: So there are now 3 trees where before there were 2?
Advisor: Thats what it'll say in the books sire..
King :crazyeye:
Advisor: Don't mention it sire....

Hummmph...

Chopping has hardly been touched..I was thinking peeps meant 20 hammers on marathon (only lvl I play) when in fact its now 60 hammers..which is only 1/3 less then before...and this you get back to "full power" chopping with discovery of mathematics (why?)

Not a happy camper, I hoped it to be reduced to a token amount like 20 hammers on marathon to start with then upgrades with tech like steam power or replaceable parts...Mathematics (bah)..

Advisor : Now we have discovered mathematics sire , we can produce much more wood from clearing forests.
King : Why? Are not the woods the same as before..
Advisor: Ah but with mathematics sire, we have also discovered a new method called "accounting", so where before there were 2 trees, now there are 3...one day this will lead directly towards something called "Political Spin"
King: So there are now 3 trees where before there were 2?
Advisor: Thats what it'll say in the books sire..
King :crazyeye:
Advisor: Don't mention it sire....

With Mathematics they can make precise measurements when cutting wood, so less is wasted.. Or something like that.

Chopping has hardly been touched..I was thinking peeps meant 20 hammers on marathon (only lvl I play) when in fact its now 60 hammers..which is only 1/3 less then before...and this you get back to "full power" chopping with discovery of mathematics (why?)

I agree it could easily have been reduced more---I wish it had been. I also liked the idea of more yield increases coming later in the tech tree.

However, you should also note (1) more rapid decrease of chop yields with distance, (2) decrease of chop yields outside cultural borders, and (3) increased chop times. Those all have a significant effect.

I think it is good to see that Firaxis is brave enough to even touch the subject of chop rushing. It's a major strategy that is used by everybody, so to change it requires guts. And of course, it can't be changed very drastically since that would lead to very bad feelings among a group of players. You don't want that as a game company.

Players can mod the game to create balance and only have to consider balance if they want to. Firaxis has a far harder job. They have to find a 'balance' between the people who want a more 'balanced' form of chop rushing and the people who want a 'strong' form of chop rushing. That's a nearly impossible asignment.;)

Advisor : Now we have discovered mathematics sire , we can produce much more wood from clearing forests.
King : Why? Are not the woods the same as before..
Advisor: Ah but with mathematics sire, we have also discovered a new method called "accounting", so where before there were 2 trees, now there are 3...one day this will lead directly towards something called "Political Spin"
King: So there are now 3 trees where before there were 2?
Advisor: Thats what it'll say in the books sire..
King :crazyeye:
Advisor: Don't mention it sire....

That's hilarious. :lol: I registered just to comment on your little dialogue. It cracked me up.

Well I say BRAVO!
I was embarrassed for my fellow civ players shamelessly exploiting forest chops to beat the game. I know that scores were WAY out of perportion to skill level and I am glad they did something about it.
It will be a different game now...

I also will be interested to see if they did something about the way the game would crash if I left it on the overall map for too long. (I learned to click on civlopeadia when going to the bathroom)

I can't wait to see the changes!:D

'Hi everyone, my name is Aussie_Lurker, and I'm a Forest-Chopping Junkie!'
'Hi Aussie_Lurker.' ;)
Seriously, I admit that I have become WAY too dependant on forest chopping-especially in a race to get Wonders. I will still probably use that approach when I want to shave a few turns off the last stages of a Wonder-but at least it won't be such a, shall we say, NO-BRAINER?! Especially when you add in the health benefits of forests!

Aussie_Lurker.

I used chopping heavily before because it was the easiest way to get ahead.

One of my favorite strategies was to send workers around other civ's cities and chop down their trees, therefore stealing their resources with no diplomatic ill affect. The new stronger distances penalties greatly reduce the positive effect of this, which is good because though effective it was a contrived and unrealistic strategy. More than the change in the base value, I think the distance penalty puts much better balance in the early game, making you think about what resources you have access to and setting your early tech progression to take the best advantage of it. Chopping is still an option but more one only if you start in a heavily forested area with few other resources.

I think it is good to see that Firaxis is brave enough to even touch the subject of chop rushing. It's a major strategy that is used by everybody, so to change it requires guts. And of course, it can't be changed very drastically since that would lead to very bad feelings among a group of players. You don't want that as a game company.

Players can mod the game to create balance and only have to consider balance if they want to. Firaxis has a far harder job. They have to find a 'balance' between the people who want a more 'balanced' form of chop rushing and the people who want a 'strong' form of chop rushing. That's a nearly impossible asignment.;)

Excellent post.

Cheers to Firaxis! :goodjob:

I haven't tried the patch yet, but there are 3 things i'm disappointed with :

1. "Fixed rush production per population for game speeds other than normal"
Therefore they haven't fixed the less obvious but still present bugs with pop rushing at normal speed.

2. Financial doesn't give a bonus to banks anymore. That's a joke. Banks are the last thing that mattered for financial civs. They should have nerfed financial a lot more than this. They should have made it only apply to tile with 3+ commerce.

3. Chops now give 20 hammers. That's not enough. They should have brought it down to 10.

To 10?
Yeah lets just make it useless.
Or better yet why not make it give no hammers at all?

I think a better fix for forest-chopping would have been to half their benefits towards workers or settlers.

I'm glad they did something, though - it was way overpowered.

Finantial is probably the weekest trait anyway, it is just easiest no micro to use trait. I actially did not see any need for a nerf.

Im happy about the patch except this one thing...

Chopping now gives 20 hammers. This will hurt early game for me a lot. :cry:

Agree, I don't think I will update.

I had actually taking a non-chop approach pre-1.61 and I love the nerf.

I never used chops to rush the crap out of early game as I always would feel it come mid-late game. Any time I chopped, it was for bonuses to wonder production only. Basically, if I am building a wonder (sometimes a settler) I will do my sweeping of the area with a passing worker. Thus, it was just an added bonus when I needed it. It still is for me, it is less of a bonus, but still a bonus.

It would be nice if lumbermills were taken to machinery now though, I have always felt that. However, I find myself liking the nerf mostly because I went back to try a new patch game on Monarch and now not only has the nerf effected me little but it has the computer at higher difficulties not getting such a harvest from their "chops+cheats".
In my test game Stonehenge wasnt built until 1000BC on Monarch. ANd the Pyramids didnt get built until close to year 0. In my previous experiences I saw the AI completing these way before these times.

don't like the patch? don't install it then. simple

don't like the patch? don't install it then. simple

damn straight

man, why do the feeling that many players are now sitting in the corner of their room with tinfoil on their heads chanting 'chopping was good, chopping was good!!!'

it was seriously overpowered, and even moreso now that I hear how some players were going around chopping down any trees they could find in any open border territory!

It was overpowered (and I was using it as often as I could), but I'm happy they nerfed it. Who said it was a no-brainer was right, IMO.

Finantial is probably the weekest trait anyway, it is just easiest no micro to use trait. I actially did not see any need for a nerf.

Are you kidding? "Financial" is probably the most popular trait. It isn't "week", at all.

Reignking, he said 'weak' not 'least popular', he could have also said 'overrated'. I don't really agree with it being weak though I do think it's overrated.

I personally like these changes, it's pretty clear to me that Firaxis doesn't think that the way to win the higher levels should be 'clear-cut everything near your capital, get the pyramids and go to representation for happiness, and spam cottages for your economy'. I think winning at the higher levels is going to take more than that now, I think people are going to need to run a better specialist-based early economy at the start to make up for not being able to just chop around the AI's starting advantages.

Fine. It is popular because it is powerful. I don't think it would be popular if it were weak.

Sounds like the "Pyramids got nerfed" thread :)

You know...the settler level is too easy and way overpowered.;) I sure hope people aren't going to demand Firaxis to make it more difficult in the next patch too. IMO, people who think their game is way too easy and overpowered should move up a level.

I too disagree with the "weak" claim of Financial trait. Cottage spamming mixed with financial is just wicked. I actually choose not to use it alot because of its overpowering effect. I bet any person that only plays financial would be feel it if they swapped to another civ trait set. By the time you have 5 cities this trait is doing alot more for you than any other trait. And you reap the benefits every turn.

I am not knocking people for using it, though. You know, smoke em if you got em - or something. Whatever floats your boat I guess. I prefer Aggressive myself but never play Huayna because... well, sad as it sounds I dont like his UU and also I tend to have a distaste for financial personally anymore.

IMO I think they should have left the bank thing alone and just capped it at Villages and towns to produce extra. Or taken away the bonus to commerce from cottages all together and made upgrades 1/2-1/4 cheaper along with an automatic free trade route per city or something. I bet alot of people don't like that second idea though, but honestly I cant think of a trait that stacks up to the benefits reaped in from a cottage spam with Financial trait.

In time I think this trait will get more attention.

2. Financial doesn't give a bonus to banks anymore. That's a joke. Banks are the last thing that mattered for financial civs. They should have nerfed financial a lot more than this. They should have made it only apply to tile with 3+ commerce.

3. Chops now give 20 hammers. That's not enough. They should have brought it down to 10.

Better to have done something rather than nothing at all. Cheap banks were just a massive cherry on top of a rather tasty cake for financial civs and banks are one of the quickest ways to boost overall civ revenue...well, by half ;)

But, to go as far as you would for chopping would have removed the value of a rather interesting decision. Chop the forests for a quick production gain, or keep them for longer term production and health benefits. The new rules DO limit chopping greatly as compared to 1.52 as chopping outside your cultural boundary is nearly worthless, whilst that wasn't the case before in my experience.

1. "Fixed rush production per population for game speeds other than normal"
Therefore they haven't fixed the less obvious but still present bugs with pop rushing at normal speed.

Brilliant logic. Maybe it would make more sense to actually try it before reaching conclusions about how it works?

Agree, I don't think I will update.
I am pretty sure this is just an entry in an XML file that says "Base value for chopping = 20". You can update (if you think that the other changes seem interesting or useful) and just correct the value to whatever seems more reasonable to you. Same applies for Pyramids, Financial, Kremlin, and all other things.

I updated not so much because I liked Firaxis changes (I find them very much "MP inclined", although I agree with many of them, like chopping and Kremlin), but just to have the latest (and hopefully more corrected) game engine. There are so many mods around - and even if there isn't one that fits exactly with my taste, I can do the extra modding myself.

I am pretty sure this is just an entry in an XML file that says "Base value for chopping = 20". You can update (if you think that the other changes seem interesting or useful) and just correct the value to whatever seems more reasonable to you. Same applies for Pyramids, Financial, Kremlin, and all other things.

No, I don't think that's true. Most of these things can only be changed in the game engine. In principle, you can probably change all of them using the SDK, but that's a lot more work.

Actually I'm pretty sure it can be changed in XML.

...and this you get back to "full power" chopping with discovery of mathematics (why?)

It makes sense to me. Chopping a forest also means turning that wood into planks etc, that can be used in production. With mathematics, you can plan your final cuts better so there's less wastage.

No, I don't think that's true. Most of these things can only be changed in the game engine. In principle, you can probably change all of them using the SDK, but that's a lot more work.
It was very well known that the chopping value is defined in the file CIV4BuildInfos.xml. What I don't know yet is if there is some other file that needs to be attended too - but after a brief test, it's sure that you can change the base chopping value through this file.

I'm trying to understand what people are complaining about?

are they seriously upset that they have to play on a more even playing field with the AI?

remember the AI cant chop for fast builds either...

It was very well known that the chopping value is defined in the file CIV4BuildInfos.xml. What I don't know yet is if there is some other file that needs to be attended too - but after a brief test, it's sure that you can change the base chopping value through this file.

My comment was about the effects of civics like Representation, traits like Financial, and wonders like the Kremlin. I haven't checked all of those, but most such values can only be changed in the game engine.

All those you listed can be changed in XML.

I'm trying to understand what people are complaining about?

are they seriously upset that they have to play on a more even playing field with the AI?

remember the AI cant chop for fast builds either...

I think people are mad that their strategy has been flushed fdown the toilet. As Firaxis has now used its trump card and called "exploit". As if you remember clearing forests did not start giving bonus resources until 3. C2 and 1 you had to wait every turn out. Maybe thats why some of us arent bothered by having a city build queue be occupied for 50 turns.

But really, I don't know either. :p

Also don't forget that, as with Civ3, I would not be suprised if each patch also gave us a slightly improved AI. I can't be certain, but in a game I played last night Hatty seemed VERY cunning. I sent a huge force to take Memphis from her and, whilst I did that, she snuck a few swordsmen around behind me to take my lightly defended city of Coventry (which was lightly defended BECAUSE I moved the force out to take Memphis :rolleyes: ) She did a lot more of that later in the game-kept sending deep penetration raids into my territory to try and take London. She failed, but it was rather hairy there for a moment.
Anyway, my point is that this behaviour seems like an improvement on the AI's I faced in 1.52!

Aussie_Lurker.

Oh and, I didn't really notice any significant difference in how many hammers I was getting from chopping, but perhaps that was only because I waited until AFTER I got mathematics. It does take an extra turn or two to chop now though!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Adapt or be obselete.

lol chop rush still works 4 wonders only in da right situation u need stone or marble if ur going for the oracle and plenty of forest within ur 3 by 3 radius (meaning ur culture hasn't reached 10 on normal speed & you dont have that cross, you usually don't have that croos YET on high difficulties levels cuz u havn't research a religion and stonhedge is now harder to come by on patch 1.61)

usually a minimum of 3 forest, 2 if you hav hills and food resources or flood plains nearby also if u can get near 10 production (not including your resource effect) from a happiness limit of 4 that will also help alot ( i was playing on monarch, havn't been playing at dat level 4 ages been losing constantly on emperor by mere loses SO CLOSE 2 WINNING on patch 1.52)

ANYWAYS... Once you've researched mansonary and wateva tech to build your wonder (eg - Myst or Preisthood) generally during my reaseach i'd improve the land around there to increase production as much as possible.
(REMEMBER YOUR HAPPINESS LIMIT)

Build Stonghedge and after your culture has expanded & you have extra forest near that city & in it's cultural broaders you might as well build the piramids if you have stone, build the oracle if you have marble.

don't like the patch? don't install it then. simple


Right on. I haven't.

Chopping has hardly been touched..I was thinking peeps meant 20 hammers on marathon (only lvl I play) when in fact its now 60 hammers..which is only 1/3 less then before...and this you get back to "full power" chopping with discovery of mathematics

Thank you for that clarification. Having not played on 1.61 yet, I was wondering how they could tune it down that much.

Also begs the question why the update didn't say 'chopping yield reduced by 1/3' instead. :hmm:

Its 1/3 less hammers in tiles within your cultural boundries, less outside (why you should be allowed to chop outside when you can't mine or farm outside, still beats me)...

However guilty admittance last game :- monarch /fractal/ huge / marathon / aggressive AIs/ random civ/ ..I got Chinese..went straight for Bronze Working , copper 10 tiles south of Beijing , 5 N of Mansa's land...chopped for my 2nd worker and then settler...risked sending him all alone to copper site , built Shanghai , chopped out 3 Axeman ..good bye Mansa..then found Peter had built St Petersburg 4 tiles East of Shanghai..goodbye St Pet, and a few chops later for more axemen (I had 4 workers in a group-2 captured) good bye Peter.

2 Civs destroyed by 2245 BC...I've 7 cities all in lush positions game virtually won already...

So they nerfed chopping did they?

No, its still quite ridiculous in some situations, as shown above...

Oh well

I thought that it was underpowered before, so now I think that this is useless now .. I would say before "Increase the hammers given !"

Adapt or be obselete.


that quote actually reminds me of a book my managers made me read when I had a regular payed job... the book was called "WHO MOVED MY CHEESE"

It tells the story of lab rats who get used to their cheese always being in the same spot.... then once the cheese gets moved to a new part of the maze they dont want to adapt... some of them dont adapt and instead linger and die in the old place the cheese was all the die complaining that the cheese that was by all rights theirs was moved...

Those that adapted and found the new location of the cheese learnt that adapting is good and they stayed alert for the next time the cheese was likly to move... cheese of course is a metaphour for any goal or desire you have, be it money or love or ... whatever...

It rings true to life, but I hated how it was my managers who made me read the book, because comming from them it was like saying "when our cheese gets moved I want you to smile and like it..."

some people wont install the patch because they loved their old cheese... others will install the patch, adapt, and find new cheese...

Personally, I'm making more progress in NOT rushing my growth, instead I slow grow one city, then I expand to 4 before borders get close... then I invade my nearest neighbour, and take all their developed citys... from then on the rest of the world is mine... the only exception to this rule is when my neighbours capitol is really close... then I sack it fast for the ultra cool location it provides...

Yah, I agree that it was hardly nerfed. I just played a marathon game on that new European map, started close enough to those gigantic Russian forests... damn, it was almost too easy.

I think the game would play better if chopping was made almost useless at the beginning, but then became more useful during the middle ages. It'd be truer to real life, because at least in europe, it was only during the middle ages did everyone chop all the forests to make farmland. If the change in production was much later than maths, and perhaps the forest tiles could produce more food at the start, then they'd be more incentive to leave them at the beginning.

I think the game would play better if chopping was made almost useless at the beginning, but then became more useful during the middle ages. It'd be truer to real life, because at least in europe, it was only during the middle ages did everyone chop all the forests to make farmland. If the change in production was much later than maths, and perhaps the forest tiles could produce more food at the start, then they'd be more incentive to leave them at the beginning.

For Europe you may be correct, but history is full of peoples who deforested their land well before the Middle Ages.

I like how they have it now, with some reward given to choppers who wait for math, and with much less wood coming from chops outside of your cultural borders.

The cultural borders/distance bit is the key thing I think, I used to get lots of hammers from chopping 3-5 spaces away from my cities.