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Bede
Apr 17, 2006, 09:07 AM
:mischief: :blush::cool:

Reserved for dipping of quills in company ink.

Kickbooti
Apr 17, 2006, 12:01 PM
:mischief: :blush::cool:

Reserved for dipping of quills in company ink.

I hesitate to be the first...

Perhaps this should be split into multiple threads, but I will propose...

City Name - Vaccuous or Trite

I would recomend a warrior because hey, these are people we are playing, and if I came across an undefended opponent early in game - I'd take them out.

And we need a technology. When I play this by myself I head for the founding of a religion - having the money and intel that is provided by the prophet-built wonders for each religion is a great thing in my opinion. Besides which, I like to point people to eternal truths that will satisfy in this life and the next - it's just a thing I do.

As for technology, Budhism is the closest, which requires mysticism first. That is my 'soft' vote, I would love to hear other's thoughts.

There. My post for the 'company quill.'

Whomp
Apr 18, 2006, 06:46 PM
I agree warrior first but maybe a partial build until we hit pop 2 then switch to worker could be a consideration. Then if someone pops up we can switch back.
I tend to go towards getting cottages as fast as possible because I feel civ4 is a commerce game like civ3 was a growth game. Looking at our start though there's not a lot of grass tiles to work so I wonder if this minimizes the benefit of getting cottages up early.

Besides which, I like to point people to eternal truths that will satisfy in this life and the next - it's just a thing I do. Aha! Conflict of interest!! I actually tend to agree that looking at the lay of the land we may need the happiness since those trees are going to be chopped at some point and we'll need the happiness too.


I've found getting alphabet in our pitboss game was huge for trading but then again that's with 18 players.

pindicator
Apr 18, 2006, 07:21 PM
I agree that tech is the way to go, Whomp, but I tend to put growth ahead of commerce, the idea being to work more commerce tiles quicker. I guess a lot depends on what resource is southeast of the settler: is that a corn or a sugar resource? (Can sugar even be on plains?) While we're on the topic of resource hunting, is that distortion in the picture some sort of sea resource?

Since we have financial/philosophical lizzy, I would assume our short-term goal is to hit a quick library and then academy while emphasizing cottages.

Furiey
Apr 19, 2006, 01:23 AM
I've mow patched to 1.61, unfortunately it doesn't appear to cure my floodplains in unexplored regions issue. Until that does happen or we have explored the map so it's not a problem I will not be able to play a turn. :cry:

Tubby Rower
Apr 19, 2006, 05:35 PM
Ok. we have corn and wheat and in the water we have some fish that's all that's there

Build Queue -> warrior until pop 2 then worker. then finish warrior then get a fishing boat

Technology -> we need agriculture to make the worker useful then we'll need pottery for cottages.

Buddhism is gone since there is at least one team that will only need less than 8 turns to get meditation. Polytheism (then Mono if needed) would be a better path. I also agree with Whomp that Writing and then Alpha for tech trading and libraries and academies

Tubby Rower
Apr 19, 2006, 05:41 PM
I opened the save and turned on resources and the grid, then got out.

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/281/civ4screenshot00038rz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Bede
Apr 19, 2006, 07:42 PM
I think workboat first, then warrior, then worker? Research sailing for lighthouse to power the drive to Polytheism.

Cottages are not all that powerful without rivers and floodplains

Tubby Rower
Apr 19, 2006, 07:59 PM
Bede has convinced me that a work boat to completion and then worker then warrior might be the best bet.

Free food in the fish is going to be good. The worker might not have anything to do before we get him out of the capital.

On the tech front... CoL gives us Confusionism and is after Alpha. So that might be the best bet. Chopping forests don't have the appeal that they used to since the patch came out. SO Agriculture... wheels... then off to CoL via Alpha

Bede
Apr 19, 2006, 08:32 PM
I got it and here's the plan:

settle on the spot
start workboat
research sailing
Longer term research plan: sailing=>agriculture, then the Code of Laws path

Comments invited

Conroe
Apr 19, 2006, 08:37 PM
a work boat to completion and then worker then warrior might be the best bet.That is certainly the way that I would play it in an SP game against the AI.

But, with my sheer lack of MP experience, I have to wonder if it wise to wait that long for a Warrior considering this statement:

I would recomend a warrior because hey, these are people we are playing, and if I came across an undefended opponent early in game - I'd take them out.

If we wait for a Warrior until after completing a Work Boat and a Worker, then we will have to keep our starting Warrior close to home. Thus, little or no exploration.

Bede
Apr 19, 2006, 08:40 PM
That is what boats are for...no huts to pop but hey it minimizes the barbarian risk

grahamiam
Apr 20, 2006, 07:51 AM
I would prefer another warrior before the worker. That way, 1 warrior can stay home while the other scouts around the capitol. It can also come back home if another civ trys to get frisky.

Here's a scenerio to consider: say we build the worker after the work boat and the worker is working a tile. Team B comes along before the 2nd warrior is build and forces us to guard the worker, leaving the capitol exposed. If they have a 2nd warrior nearby or are an aggressive civ, they could easily wipe us out before we can think. With a 2nd warrior, we are much safer.

grahamiam
Apr 20, 2006, 11:21 AM
I got it and here's the plan:

settle on the spot
start workboat
research sailing
Longer term research plan: sailing=>agriculture, then the Code of Laws path

Comments invited
I'm fine with the path, as long as there's a slight detour for BW. imho, finding out where the copper is located before the 1st settler is very important. so, I would like to suggest sailing, agri, then BW or AH, then AH or BW, then go up towards CoL via writing. We also need a detour for wheel, imho, due to lack of rivers.

Tubby Rower
Apr 20, 2006, 01:07 PM
IIRC, wheel is needed for pottery which is needed for writing

BW is ok, but animal husbandry isn't too important but I can see the reasons for it (ie: seeing where horses are)

pindicator
Apr 20, 2006, 03:36 PM
If we do not have any copper show nearby after BW comes in, then AH becomes a viable alternative (either that or IW) to find a strategic resource.

If we do have Copper then I'd advocate going writing via wheel and pottery (skipping AH for the time being) since that makes best use of our civ traits.

Tubby Rower
Apr 20, 2006, 07:48 PM
I agree pindicator.

grahamiam
Apr 21, 2006, 09:42 AM
Writing requires Pottery or AH or Priesthood (3 different paths). So, if we go BW, don't find copper, then go AH (which requires AGR or Hunt), we can then go straight to Writing without worrying about Pottery till later. We do need wheel anyways, just to connect the corn as well as mobility between towns and if we find copper, then I have no problem skipping AH (unless we find 3 cows and a couple pigs nearby :) )

pindicator
Apr 22, 2006, 11:46 AM
Well, AH is a lot more relevant now that we can see nearby pigs. And Pottery looks really good for what appears to be a super commerce site down by those same pigs.

Bede
Apr 24, 2006, 01:27 PM
Plan for T6 - keep the course. Learn how to sail and explore some more.

Comments?

Bede
Apr 24, 2006, 03:00 PM
T6 Screenshot:

Let the dotmapping begin!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/T6.jpg

grahamiam
Apr 24, 2006, 08:47 PM
Since we are building a workboat 1st, wouldn't be a good idea to not let the warrior wander too far? We found the bottom of the map, perhaps it would be good to circle to the E, not going any farther from our border. If someone wanders by and steps on one of those hills, it curtains for sure!

Sweetacshon
Apr 24, 2006, 09:18 PM
A good point. All the geographical knowledge in the world counts for zero without a city. I vote East, depending on the width of the desert.

Kickbooti
Apr 24, 2006, 10:23 PM
Is that more corn directly to the west of our warrior?

And I too would urge more caution than boldness at this point. Remember, Sirian is a punster, that speaks volumes about his character, team Epsilon's goody huts could be poppling Navy Seals for all we know...

pindicator
Apr 24, 2006, 10:53 PM
It looks like corn to me. Also, lending my support to the notion of sending the warrior east to keep it close to the capital. Doesn't look like we'll find much there, but this is a Sirian map so you never know.

Bede
Apr 25, 2006, 07:11 PM
Plan for T7 - Loop warrior east towards home.

Bede
Apr 25, 2006, 07:25 PM
Warrior looping east. No more fog uncovered.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/T7.jpg

Looks like everyone else is building military :eek:

pindicator
Apr 25, 2006, 08:15 PM
Actually, it appears that only 2 other teams are building military first. If you notice, we are #3 in soldiers at 3000, and we are also last, which means two other teams are tied with us. Take the soldier average and times it by the amount of teams and you get the value 18750. Subtract our "worst" score and the other two worst team scores and two teams are left with 9750 between them. One of those teams is 5000 as they are the best; the other is 4750. Listed out, soldier scores are for each team:

5000
4750
3000
3000
3000
Total of 18750 and average of 3750

My guess: the team that plays just prior to us is building a warrior along with one other team. The other two are building workers/work boats.

Tubby Rower
Apr 25, 2006, 08:23 PM
couldn't the difference be attributed to the techs? There are some techs that give soldiers... Check Robi D's signature for the thread where he did the research.

Sweetacshon
Apr 25, 2006, 08:33 PM
Good analysis pindicator. Does that mean the top score will have a warrior in four turns (assuming a warrior is worth 3000)? I dislike the warrior having to be timid, however necessary it is, and letting other teams get the goodies. Have we decided on the build order -- warrior for scouting, worker for improvement (or scouting;) ) ? How far away is sailing?

pindicator
Apr 26, 2006, 04:03 AM
Throw out my "guess" from before. First off, I included our score in the "Rival Average" computations, which the game does not do :nono:. Second, I looked up Robi D's article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098&highlight=Robi+D) and the soldier points are based on

1) population
2) units
3) city improvements
4) technology

(See the article for the specific values.)

With that in mind, I think I can figure out who has what score (and possibly which units). Here is that analysis/guess:

For the population part of the soldiers score, we can see that nobody will score any points for population, as you get 1000 soldier points for every 2 population in your empire, and yet under the population demographic everybody is shown as having 1 population.

For the technolgoy part of the soldiers score, we can take the starting technologies of every civ and note the points associated with those technologies:

Team Aloha (Catherine) - Hunting/Mining = 2000 + 2000 points
Team Innovia (Saladin) - Mysticism/Wheel = 0 + 4000 points
Team Loco (Ghandi) - Mysticism/Mining = 0 + 2000 points
Team Epsilon (Quin Shi Huang) - Agriculture/Mining = 0 + 2000 points
Us (for those who are curious) - Fishing/Mining = 0 + 2000 points

Nobody can make any of the city improvements yet, so part 3 can be ignored now.

Finally, the starting units of each civ can be tallied. The only team to start with a scout and not a warrior is team Aloha, since Catherine begins with Hunting. So Team Aloha gains 0 points in the final section and everyone else gains 1000 points.

This gives us these values for each team:

Innovia = 5000 points
Aloha = 4000 points
Loco = 3000 points
Epsilon = 3000 points

This, of course, adds up 15000, which if you divide by 4 you get the value of our rival average: 3750.

So that tells us that nobody has popped a hut to give them a technology that would score points or has produced or popped a warrior from a hut (a scout would score as 0 points and not show). It is not a great tool for discerning later on what different opponents have for a military, more of a guide post for a potential to build an army since it factors technology, population, and improvements. I suppose if we check every turn we may be able to point out when an opponent researches a certain possiblity of technologies or if they create a warrior early, but after the early phase is over we will not be able to analyze in detail the soldier figure.

Basically I just took all this space to tell us nothing new :lol:

pindicator
Apr 26, 2006, 04:38 AM
What we can discern from the demographic screenshot (keep in mind that with the average value civ 4 truncates the decimal):

GNP - 1 opponent is working a 1-commerce tile with their first citizen, the rest are working a tile with 0 commerce

Mfg Goods - 1 to 3 teams are working a 1-production tile

Crop Yield - 3 teams are working a 3-food tile

Land Area - since every team should have expanded their borders by now, the land area of the opposing teams' tiles are: 1 team with 20 land (non-coastal/ocean) tiles, 1 team with 12 land tiles, and the other 2 teams with between 12-16 land tiles. Robi's article does not specify if lake tiles are counted, so I cannot tell if the team with 20 tiles settled 1 tile away from the coast or if there is a lake tile in their capital's fat X.

Population - everyone is still size 1

Approval rating - nobody has yet hooked up a luxury or founded a religion (duh)

Life expectancy - after figuring the average and values given, our opponents have expectancy ratings of 83%, 83%, 83%, & 71%, which means their healthy max/unhealthy current ratios are 5/6 for three civs and 5/7 for one other. Which means one other civ has an additional unhealthiness of 1 and also has an additional max healthiness of 1. Since no civ is expansionist, we can assume the three civs have 2 to 3 forests and fresh water in their starting location and a fourth civ has 4 to 5 forests as well as 3 to 4 flood plains or jungle tiles.

Although all the evidence is only corellary, I am willing to guess that those are flood plain tiles and that the opponent is working those flood plain tiles for the 3 food and 1 commerce difference we see in the earlier demo stats.

Update on supposition: - Since I was very tired and up very late when I wrote this, I will mention that there are three teams working a three food tile. Due to the fact that only one civ is working a 1-commerce tile and only one civ has greater unhealthiness than the rest of us all, I still think only one other team out there is working a flood plain tile. If true (again, cannot prove this but it is a good inference) it means that two other civs are working 3 food, 0 commerce tiles, and the final civ is working a 2 food tile. Since I cannot readily think of an unimproved tile that gives 3 food, 1 production (correct me if i'm wrong), I can only assume that one civ working a 2 food tile is also getting 1 production out of it (which only makes sense as to why they would be working that tile).

So, again, my inference of the facts and my experience with how Civ 4 picks tiles to work (cannot be proven) are that the following civs are working tiles:

Opponent 1: Flood plains (3 food / 0 production / 1 commerce)
Opponent 2: Forest / food bonus on plains (2 food / 1 production / 0 commerce)
Opponents 3 & 4: Bonus food tile (cow, corn, sheep, rice, etc) on grassland not adjacent to river (3 food / 0 production / 0 commerce)

Don't worry, I'm not advocating war with my "intelligence" :lol:

Okay, I've had enough fun for tonight. (And enough fun for the next day.)

Tubby Rower
Apr 26, 2006, 05:43 AM
wow pindicator..... it looks like me and you could sit at Waffle House until 3AM being nerds. :lol: (no offense as I'm quite impressed with your write up) I learned all of this stuff for [c3c] and implemented it in the early game in the MTDG there. I'm not sure if it was worth anything except idle chatter.

Should we make up a spreadsheet for this game like I did for [c3c]? It appears as though we might glean more useful information out of the [civ4] screens than we could out of the [c3c] screens.

Kickbooti
Apr 26, 2006, 07:04 AM
wow pindicator..... it looks like me and you could sit at Waffle House until 3AM being nerds. :lol: (no offense as I'm quite impressed with your write up) I learned all of this stuff for [c3c] and implemented it in the early game in the MTDG there.

Wow. To be a fly on the wall in THAT Waffle House. I say go for it, having a comparision won't necessarily dictate what we can do at any given moment (terrain will be a bigger factor in that initially), but it woud be good to know the relative strengths for diplo.

I know that Tubby scared a few people in the Civ III game with his nerdish divining of military strength.

I say go for the spread sheet! I'll spring for another round of stuffed French Toast.

Furiey
Apr 26, 2006, 07:10 AM
Glad I'm not the only one that's a big fan of spreadsheets, I try and keep it under control, but it often escapes...

Go for the spreadsheet!

Tubby Rower
Apr 26, 2006, 07:14 AM
I'll try to figure out a good format and such so that all of the info is easy to look at and/or makes sense. Maybe if that baby every comes I'll get some time off and I could get working on it during nap time :D

This time it will be a bit harder as we are not the first or the last player. but we can still make assumptions and have wild speculation (that domesticated speculation tastes aweful :ack: )

pindicator
Apr 26, 2006, 12:58 PM
oh my goodness, if we do a chart of continual spreadsheets every turn... I might just enjoy that too much.

I'm not sure how useful it will be -- right now we can infer any differences in the demographics screens, but by time each team becomes more of an empire the figures will only be only be closer to their intention of giving a vague sense at a glance.

By the way, it was late and I missed a detail in the demographics crop yield. We are ranked #4 which means three of our opponents are working a 3 food tile -- I'll edit my original post

Whomp
Apr 26, 2006, 01:18 PM
Tubs you and Pind have issues.
Sounds like we need to start the Dept. of Piffles Wiffle Waffles Geeks and numbers thread. Spreadsheet, please.

pindicator
Apr 26, 2006, 05:55 PM
Turn 8 played.

Warrior moved east, see turnlog for screenshot.

Checked the demographics screen, and that may be more interesting since we can compare it against last turn's demo. I'll post the image if people want to, otherwise maybe Tubby and I should open up a department of central intelligence forum thread in charge of discerning as much info about our opponents as possible (info from demographics and other things, maybe in charge of spies later on -- i dunno, how much like a demogame are we?).

Edit - preliminary demographics work: team Loco has been working a 3 food tile food bonus tile and has just grown their capital to size 2. Now they are working a 2 food, 1 production tile with their second citizen.

Kickbooti
Apr 27, 2006, 02:05 PM
As we are nearing the completion of our workboat; does anyone, in principle, object to sending the boat past the fish for a turn or two do explore a bit of the area to the east?

I only bring it up becuase if we did that we could better plan the movments of our warrior to prevent duplication of effort.

Bede
Apr 27, 2006, 02:30 PM
I should open up a department of central intelligence forum thread in charge of discerning as much info about our opponents as possible (info from demographics and other things, maybe in charge of spies later on -- i dunno, how much like a demogame are we?).

Please do. Having a cenral repository for that stuff is helpful for the old duffers.

Sweetacshon
Apr 30, 2006, 10:34 PM
As we are nearing the completion of our workboat; does anyone, in principle, object to sending the boat past the fish for a turn or two do explore a bit of the area to the east?


Sounds fine with me. It is two squares to the fish, and then sailing around the bay is a further four squares, or six if we want to look through the heads. This shouldn't affect London too much.

Tubby Rower
May 01, 2006, 05:09 AM
yeah scout some with the work boat. A couple turns of 5 food isn't all too much to lose.

Sweetacshon
May 02, 2006, 03:39 AM
Speaking of finishing the workboat, was ther a consensus on worker or warrior??

btw thanks Bede for plodding along in a dry spell :)

Tubby Rower
May 02, 2006, 05:30 AM
I believe a warrior as the worker wouldn't have much to do right now. I'd be for partially building a warrior and then at the next pop, switching to a worker. Then the warrior can be mostly built and switched to if a threat arises.

grahamiam
May 02, 2006, 10:20 AM
yeah scout some with the work boat. A couple turns of 5 food isn't all too much to lose.
:eek: :confused: really? seems like a lot for just a couple of tiles.

Tubby Rower
May 02, 2006, 10:40 AM
well it determines whether or not a warrior build will be needed. the work boat will give +2 :food: so we won't be missing 10 :food: but rather 4 :food:

grahamiam
May 02, 2006, 11:07 AM
well, we are working the forest right now, so we have +2fpt and +2 hpt. When we grow, we can work the corn for +3fpt or the fish for +2fpt. the workboat will add +3fpt to the fish (making it a 5fpt tile), so we'll actually lose 6f, not 4, by trolling around in the fishing boat if we work the fish tile on growth. If we work the wheat, we'll only lose 4f, but we'll also lose 6g towards the next tech.edit: wheat is on plain, so it's 2fpt/1hpt. Plus, it'll cost 36 food to grow from size 2 to 3, so it could add a few turns (probably 3) to the time it takes to grow, thus compounding the gold loss.
just trying to weigh effect of not getting that food for a few tiles of exploration.

edit2: also, moving the boat will probably be as follows: T1 to fish, T2 2T E, T3 back to fish, T4 cast net. Therefore, we lose 3 turns, not 2, so the food effect is -9f. It think...

Tubby Rower
May 02, 2006, 11:11 AM
oh.. I thought that the workboat was only +2.. I also thought that it was being worked as soon as it was available, but that's what I get for thinking.

I still would like to know what those tiles are to our NE. if that's a passageway to another civ, we need to get some defense and fast.

Sweetacshon
May 02, 2006, 08:46 PM
On second thought, perhaps the workboat should fish as soon as possible. We did make the decision to build it to speed city growth, so it seems a little crazy to use it for scouting, considering the price we'll be paying. The second thing is that if you look at the screen shots closely (the earlier ones, not the "tilted" view), I am fairly certain there is no more connected land further to the northeast. As for the South-east of the bay, we will get there soon enough.

Bede
May 03, 2006, 08:33 AM
My fog gazing says the coast curves, so lant the fishing nets when the boat is done. We need the growth more than the exploration value.

Bede
May 04, 2006, 08:22 AM
Here is the NSA view of the eastern peninsula

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/T12.jpg

Looks like beaches to me.

And here is the empirical view:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/T12_01.jpg

Warrior is healing and waiting on sailing which is due in 1

Kickbooti
May 04, 2006, 09:29 AM
So where do we plant city #2?

Bede
May 04, 2006, 11:01 AM
Due west for the sandwiches I think

Whomp
May 04, 2006, 11:13 AM
Agreed. If it's planted on the plains tile 2 north of the bacon it looks like it has great commerce potential with 3 grasslands, wheat, pork, coastals. Definitely complimentary to our traits.

For a 3rd city I'm a little conflicted. Is the site N of the wines on the river a good site or 1W of that?

Tubby Rower
May 04, 2006, 11:48 AM
3 grasslands, wheat, pork, coastalslooks like we could either have a picnic on the beach or in the meadows.... I prefer the meadows mainly becuase sand chafes and grass is generally more comfortable. I can deal with the ants

grahamiam
May 04, 2006, 12:11 PM
Agreed. If it's planted on the plains tile 2 north of the bacon it looks like it has great commerce potential with 3 grasslands, wheat, pork, coastals. Definitely complimentary to our traits.

For a 3rd city I'm a little conflicted. Is the site N of the wines on the river a good site or 1W of that?
For #3, definitely down by the river to the S. The site 1T N of the wines seems to be very good (3 FP, river wines, river corn, 1 plain hill and 1 grass hill, plus forests and river plains tiles for watermills or irrigation). It could be a very flexible city, probably research/commerce and production once it's over size 5.

Furiey
May 04, 2006, 03:03 PM
I also agree with 2 N of the bacon for city 2 and unless we find something better, 1 N of the wine looks good for city 3. Exploring more to the West and East may change our priority for city 3 though.

Conroe
May 04, 2006, 03:26 PM
For #3, definitely down by the river to the S. The site 1T N of the wines seems to be very good (3 FP, river wines, river corn, 1 plain hill and 1 grass hill, plus forests and river plains tiles for watermills or irrigation). It could be a very flexible city, probably research/commerce and production once it's over size 5.With all of those river tiles and us being financial, this would be one fantastic commerce city. The extra food would allow us to cottage the plains. The forests can be chopped to build a Library and Market and then be replaced by even more cottages.

I think we should consider making this our second city, given the amount of time it takes for cottages to mature. The pork sandwich city is an excellent site; but, the commerce that this river city would bring in could pay for all of our early expansion.

Sweetacshon
May 04, 2006, 06:53 PM
They are both great sites, and I think we all agree on the positioning, however, scouting a little further into the fog to the west of the ham sandwich (possible name? ;)) might reveal more. The other issue regarding which city to place first is our tech choice. When will we get AH, BW, or pottery, not to mention the wheel, or are we aiming straight for something a bit higher? Hmm.. maybe not such a huge issue, but something to think about.

In any case, perhaps the ham sandwich will be able to provide more food initially to vomit out workers and settlers, leaving the capital to do what it wants, and then provide defensive units after we mine those hills (in the case that we have aggressive neighbours).

Furiey
May 04, 2006, 08:00 PM
So we have a choice between food and wine! Ham Sandwich (or Hamburger?) will give us growth to get the third city settled sooner, The Vineyard will help with our economy more. Still a little time before we have to choose finally.

We will however have to choose a tech next turn.

pindicator
May 04, 2006, 11:18 PM
We will however have to choose a tech next turn.


And choosing a tech will definitely go hand in hand with choosing the next city: do we go for AH or Ag and a ham sandwich? Or do we go towards Pottery and get drunk on wine?

Whomp
May 04, 2006, 11:33 PM
I'd like to get drunk on wine and crank out cottages. Pottery here.

Tubby Rower
May 05, 2006, 05:42 AM
Pottery is my vote too.

Bede
May 05, 2006, 07:35 AM
I am going to be disagreeable and come down hard for And I will also come down softly for Mining and Bronze Working. It will be yet awhile before we can make use of cottages and there are a couple of likely looking hills at home.

Tubby Rower
May 05, 2006, 07:37 AM
the thing about cottages is the quicker you build them, the more power they have. I'd be fine gettig Mining before Pots but not mining and BW.

Kickbooti
May 05, 2006, 08:26 AM
Would the city north of the wines, having access to the FP, grow more quickly - regardless of what tech we pick? I know that health would be a consideration, and I don't know the odds so that maybe waiting for pots and graneries would be best. But if pop for further cities is our goal, the FP seem to be attractive.

grahamiam
May 05, 2006, 09:07 AM
I still want to go Mining -> BW. We don't have a worker so cottages are no use right now. Knowing where the bronze is located is more important.

Whomp
May 05, 2006, 09:18 AM
The question I have is what is our coming build order?
How many turns before we pop a worker and settler?

Bede may be right in that we won't have any use for pottery if we don't have any cities, workers or settlers to build cottages with. BW seems to be the better option because we can find another resource and mine some hills in the capital.

Tubby Rower
May 05, 2006, 10:45 AM
I had assumed that we would build a warrior and then a worker. So ~7 turns (pulled out of the nether-regions) until a worker and then maybe another warrior then a settler?

How does that sound. I'm just spamming posting a lot today since it's my last day of being at work for a week or so. :D

Kickbooti
May 05, 2006, 11:39 AM
How does that sound. I'm just spamming posting a lot today since it's my last day of being at work for a week or so. :D

Work will be a relief in a week and a half...:lol:

grahamiam
May 05, 2006, 11:46 AM
if we build at size 2 working the fish and the wheat, we will consume be doing +5fpt+2hpt, or 7combo, for a worker in 9t. a warrior before that may allow us to get to size 3, which will net us another hammer, or 8 combo for a worker in 8t.

Sweetacshon
May 05, 2006, 09:26 PM
Somebody (sorry, can't remember) mentioned it before, Warrior until size 3 and then worker seems ideal. We can break out the half baked warrior anytime we need him.

I notice we went for BW, well to me it seems like a fair "wait and see" move, as I'm not really prepared to make a decision on the city until the fog lifts west of Ham Sandwich, and, of course, a copper source might make all the difference.

Sweetacshon
May 11, 2006, 12:36 AM
Bede, you made the front page!:goodjob:
Otherwise.. umm... go... London!

Sweetacshon
May 16, 2006, 08:39 PM
Hmm.. 3 posts in a row seems poor form to me. Anyway...

It seems we found the east coast. I wonder if there is a choke point to the north, or another red herring peninsula. It'd be nice to get a galley out there...

How is tech coming along, (oh) Bede (of much useful information)?

Whomp
May 16, 2006, 08:52 PM
When are you guys going to find someone for me to talk to? I relish the opportunity to talk to some other teams about what's up. :D

Melhisedek
May 21, 2006, 02:14 PM
When are you guys going to find someone for me to talk to? I relish the opportunity to talk to some other teams about what's up. :D
Talk to? We talk with the non-idiots? :D Is that in game or trough boards here?

Sorry for my ignorance just joined and learning the ropes :)

Whomp
May 21, 2006, 05:25 PM
Talk to? We talk with the non-idiots? :D Is that in game or trough boards here?

Sorry for my ignorance just joined and learning the ropes :)
Good to see you Mel. :thumbsup:

We will talk to non-idiots. Once we meet some of the other teams and we get alphabet, open borders, trade routes etc. we can start discussing our lives with each other. The diplomacy aspect of the game will be done out of game and typically happens on IM. I like it. The civ3 MTDG diplo has been very interesting.

Melhisedek
May 21, 2006, 05:57 PM
Good to see you guys as well !

I see, am still kicking myself for binging on WoW and leaving Civ3 last year :( I tried reading but you guys are way to far there, I have no idea what is going on :/

Damn diplo sounds like a great idea, looking forward to that part, right now I need to learn to play once more :)

Tubby Rower
May 22, 2006, 07:08 AM
Work will be a relief in a week and a half...:lol:
Indeed it is :D

I feel sorry for Sherry being at home with a 2 week old and a 2 year old

still catching up with the reading.

Kickbooti
May 22, 2006, 07:17 AM
Good to have you back. I pray Sherry, Anna and E-Train are doing well.

You've been through this before, but my best advise is be prepared for 3 months of very little sleep. Oh, and pick up the house and read Anna her stories before bed. Both will endear you to Sherry with the ultimate goal of more uninterrupted Civ time in the future ;)

Sweetacshon
May 27, 2006, 06:06 AM
OK, it's that time again, we get BW next turn, so what are we going to research? Pottery seemed popular, and considering we're not chasing religions at the moments, maybe the wheel and archery are two other options.

The other point I noticed in the save was the possibility of land further east. Just above the incense the is a square of land jutting out into the water; it may be nothing, but then again it might be the gateway to the promised land. We do have to explore west, but there is a warrior due about 2 turns after the 4 turns for the worker, and it will take about 5 turns for Bubba to get back to London.

Bede
May 27, 2006, 04:41 PM
Given the land around the capitol Pottery can wait, but roads will help Timing Pottery for the settler heading west looks like the best play.

So the sequence would be finish the worker, warrior, warrior, settler, and maybe another worker(?) then a lighthouse for the capitol.

How fast will we grow to three after the worker? That is the key as I think citizen assignments should be fishing boat, corn, then a mined hill, then fishing for everybody after that.

Sweetacshon
May 27, 2006, 11:51 PM
Aren't we already at 3?? Agreed, roads first,then pots. Archery.. some time. As for citizens, if we get corn farm in asap it will help for settler/worker, and then the mine to help lighthouse, we should be flying along.

Bede
May 28, 2006, 02:35 PM
Given the land around the capitol Pottery can wait, but roads will help Timing Pottery for the settler heading west looks like the best play.

So the sequence would be finish the worker, warrior, warrior, settler, and maybe another worker(?) then a lighthouse for the capitol.

How fast will we grow to four after the worker? That is the key as I think citizen assignments should be fishing boat, corn, then a mined hill, then fishing for everybody after that.

Suggested build order after worker finishes:
warrior->warrior->settler->worker->lighthouse

Worker actions: farm the corn, mine a hill.

Research: Wheel->?

Comments or queries?

The save is in and has to be handed back by 11:30AM EDT Monday, 5/29, so we have a little time here.

grahamiam
May 28, 2006, 10:31 PM
I'm fine with that build order, but things may change :) Research wheel is good. Just note where the bronze is located.

Tubby Rower
May 30, 2006, 05:45 AM
sounds good to me.

I haven't been too active lately mainly because I have limited time at home to do stuff online and at work they've blocked all imageshack stuff, so I've been in the dark. If people could post them as attachments I think that I can see them. In Sweetacshon's latest turnlog, I'm able to see that picture. I'm not sure how it was uploaded though.

Sweetacshon
May 30, 2006, 07:46 PM
Nothing special there, I just uploaded through manage attachments in the so callled advanced post section, and the shots were straight from the cIV screens folder.

Bede
May 31, 2006, 08:39 AM
No copper in sight. Bubba is heading north to find some. Looks like a landbridge thataway.

Now researching wheel due in 7, worker due in 3. Did not adopt Slavery.

grahamiam
May 31, 2006, 09:38 AM
well, without copper nearby, we need to think about AH so we can locate horses or, alternatively, go for IW.

So far, we have researched Sailing and BW, right?

Tubby Rower
May 31, 2006, 09:39 AM
yeah I think that is correct graham. I'd lean more towards AH than IW.

grahamiam
May 31, 2006, 09:41 AM
well, we should fit in AGR for the corn. otherwise we are limiting the capitol's growth and settler production.

Bede
May 31, 2006, 09:59 AM
Duh, :wallbash:, and here I was thinking we started with Agri. Need to change to AGRI next turn, I think

Kickbooti
May 31, 2006, 03:03 PM
Agree with switching to Agri.

Also, I lean toward AH.

Sweetacshon
Jun 01, 2006, 02:25 AM
I thought we had agri too!!! :(
I was thinking about an early wonder ... we have no good resources for this nearby, but what are the chances of other teams also having none? Are we better of just concentrating on getting some big fat cities on the rich land to the west, or risking a wonder?

pindicator
Jun 01, 2006, 08:26 AM
Wait -- if we don't have Agri then what did we pop from that hut some dozen turns back (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4019839&postcount=21)?

grahamiam
Jun 01, 2006, 09:25 AM
sorry, tracking too many games atm :blush:

Sweetacshon
Jun 01, 2006, 05:05 PM
Ahh pindicator, way to placate the masses!

Bede
Jun 01, 2006, 08:12 PM
:rotfl:

The blind leading the blind.....so is it going to be wheel or animals....I like wheel

Sweetacshon
Jun 01, 2006, 08:43 PM
Well, we need both, but wheel first, IMO.

Tubby Rower
Jun 02, 2006, 05:48 AM
why the wheel? do we need to hook up anything yet? I think that AH would provide better knowledge if researched earlier. namely if a settler is produced, we'll know where to put it

Furiey
Jun 02, 2006, 07:31 AM
We haven't yet produced a Worker and we only have the one Warrior exploring so we should have time to research both The Wheel and Animal Wifery before then. Researching The Wheel will allow us to connect in the corn and start roading to the next city site, otherwise our worker won't have much to do for the 10 turns that it will take us to research AH. It would take 20 turns for IW. I think it's 6 turns to go on the Wheel = 16 turns for The Wheel and Animal Wifery. Queue is Worker (2)->Warrior(2)->another Warrior? (5)-> Settler? (13) = 22 turns, or 17 turns without the second Warrior.

Tubby Rower
Jun 02, 2006, 08:12 AM
Animal Wifery:lol: I'm glad we have you to keep us guys straight on the terminology.

grahamiam
Jun 02, 2006, 08:15 AM
wheel then AW makes sense :)

Kickbooti
Jun 02, 2006, 10:43 AM
I don't know about you guys, but if I used "animal wifery" around MY wife, I think I would be herstory.

Rik Meleet
Jun 04, 2006, 07:55 PM
I don't know about you guys, but if I used "animal wifery" around MY wife, I think I would be herstory.Let me tell you a secret about Furiey. She is not a guy. :eek:

Kickbooti
Jun 05, 2006, 08:25 AM
Let me tell you a secret about Furiey. She is not a guy. :eek:
:eek: :cry:

Whomp
Jun 09, 2006, 02:06 PM
Does anyone know where bradleyfeanor is? It might be helpful for him to give some of his thoughts here since davemcw has proven to be a very aggressive player in our pitboss game and Epsilon will be a major threat with his turnplay.

Bede
Jun 13, 2006, 11:17 PM
It is t32 coming up with city growth in 1 and a third warrior in two and the worker will have finished the corn. We have Wheels.

There are two warriors killing bad lions and wolves already.

On T32 I think we should switch to a settler leaving the warrior in queue.

City planners need to open the last save or look at some of the posted screenshots of the west and figure out where to send the settler when she is done.

Sweetacshon
Jun 13, 2006, 11:32 PM
I agree with that build queue, and there are still two more things that may affect city placement: horses, if any, will be uncovered in 7 (iirc), and the fog west of Hamburger, which the warrior is heading for. Otherwise the two plots are fairly obvious, but I vote for the northern Hamburger (red), as more food means more pop, and quicker growth and further workers and settlers.
/EDIT Here is a map (I added in a few other options incase people wanted them, but red and blue seem best to me (although light blue does get the juicy desert floods) :
129890

BTW, here is the tech tree after we just finished the wheel. I have highlighted quite a few to show the number of turns, so that will have to be fixed later.
129889

Bede
Jun 14, 2006, 08:42 AM
I like the red dot first, then the dark blue, though further western exploration may reveal some juicier territory.

I have a feeling that our best source of commerce is sea based not land based. So further movement west along the coast will help.

grahamiam
Jun 14, 2006, 08:48 AM
red dot is a good spot. it's very shield heavy with good food as well. recommend we use it at first for military builds. spit out a couple of warriors to keep the barbs at bay via fog busting, then go for a rax.

Kickbooti
Jun 14, 2006, 10:37 AM
Given what we know about the lay of the land I think the Red Dot makes most sense for the next city. Aside from food and production it is close enough for mutual defense against barbs.

As for tech, I think that Pottery would be good to get some towns going. After that hunting-archery, since we don't have copper we will need something other than warriors but I believe that running for Iron working right now may be too risky given what techs we would forgoe in the short-game.

Furiey
Jun 14, 2006, 11:14 AM
Assuming the location of horses doesn't change the situation, red dot next for me too. After that, unless anything more is discovered I may go for Cyan rather than blue to get the floodplains.

Oldbus
Jun 14, 2006, 03:45 PM
I agree with what everyone else has said about settling the red dot first.

Bede
Jun 14, 2006, 04:56 PM
Staring even closer at the blue end of the spectrum. go dark blue, then move cyan 1SE1E to the grasslands. Has two FP on the founding and more grass south (I think) It does have a desert field or two but that's not all bad.

Kickbooti
Jun 20, 2006, 10:42 AM
Has the capitol been MMed? Should we shift any of the production off food and onto the hills for the double hammers? Would that get our settler any more quickly?

pindicator
Jun 20, 2006, 07:58 PM
none of the hills have yet been mined. IMO we should mine a hill with the worker next so this and future settlers get that additional shield per turn. After that I would find something productive for him to do to kill time before the settler comes out, but when the settler is done I would think it would be better to get the plains irrigated for the red dot.

Sweetacshon
Jun 21, 2006, 12:42 PM
Agreed, mine that hill and then continue the road to the west to link the future Hamburger site.

Bede
Jun 24, 2006, 03:10 PM
There is copper in the west!!!!

Oldbus
Jun 24, 2006, 03:58 PM
There is copper in the west!!!!

Makes the red dot city location look even better... :)

pindicator
Jun 24, 2006, 08:44 PM
Better? Makes it our best production site (so far)!

Sweetacshon
Jun 25, 2006, 02:40 AM
Well, that settles it!

Sorry....

grahamiam
Jun 25, 2006, 09:51 AM
Well, that settles it!

Sorry....
no, no! no apologies. the worse the pun the better the fun :D

Furiey
Jun 25, 2006, 04:20 PM
Red dot it is!

Whomp
Jul 03, 2006, 11:24 AM
It feels eerily quiet ingame.
Where are all these other teams? :scared:
Have we thought about what we'll do with teams once we've met them? I am concerned about davemcw's team. He has been awfully aggressive in our pitboss game and I think he'll try the same here.

Tubby Rower
Jul 03, 2006, 02:43 PM
well if we can become his partner then we could have a great chance to become a "grs" of this game. 2 on 3 is doable in civ4. heck even 1 on 4 is doable as long as the 4 is impatient.

Oldbus
Jul 03, 2006, 03:16 PM
We've got to keep our military up. This is the first multi-player game I've played, so I'm interested to see how it pans out. I've been reading the reports of the Pitboss game and Davemcw does sounds pretty fearsome.

Presumably one of the reasons it is quiet is that humans spend less time wandering around the map at the beginning, unlike the AI. Also, aren't we 5 teams on a large map? If so, Sirian may have spread us out very evenly and we could be quite far away from our neighbours.

Bede
Jul 03, 2006, 03:39 PM
Our military is in pretty good shape relative to the oppo if we can accept the data in the Demographics screen.

ONce the setrler is done at London I would train a warrior to within one turn of completion then start a worker, depending on the state of the population. In other words if it is going to grow into unhappiness before the warrior is finished then finish the warrior. At some point we are going to need a lighthouse in London so we can keep earning the extra commerce from the coast without having to drive the growth beyond the possibility of keeping it happy.

Tubby Rower
Jul 05, 2006, 08:03 AM
Bede's plan on the warrior sounds good to me



Since we are financial, might I suggest that we go after the Great Lighthouse. It will add 2 trade routes to each coastal city. It's not that big of a benefit now, but once the coast is explored and we have a few cities (hopefully coastal for max benefit) it will make a difference. In the mega pitboss game I grabbed it as the Mali and have 4 trade routes in 5 cities where everyone else has only 2 trade routes. also I have a couple of harbors that add an extra coin to those cities trade routes.

Kickbooti
Jul 05, 2006, 09:09 AM
If we're worried about aggressive neighbors should we work on connecting the copper and build as few warriors as possible unti they can be axemen; the cost of upgrading is steep after all.

If this is practical, once the second city is planted we would have to build an obelisk to make some culture to grab the copper.

Sweetacshon
Jul 09, 2006, 08:54 PM
Pottery is next in the queue, but do we still want this next? Frankly, our worker has a bit to do before cottages can go in. There is the road to Hamburger, farms and pastures and mines there, and London, imo, seems better suited for production than commerce.

So, three questions:
1. Other than pottery for granaries, is there something else we should research?
2. Build mines on the 4H hills around London and make commerce cities to the south around the river, and perhaps to the NE?
3. Build queue: warrior til pop, then another worker (then settler?)?

132108132109

Tubby Rower
Jul 10, 2006, 05:16 AM
I say yes.. Cottages are powerful if built early. Usually they don't fully develop until you get gunpowder. in [civ4] :commerce: is power.

I would even go so far as to say that production (ie: mining) should be delayed until at least 1 cottage is built (when we can). but that's just me.

Bede
Jul 10, 2006, 07:41 AM
The capitol will have to depend on the coast for commerce for a while yet. Plains cottages don't support themselves. Getting a lighthouse up gives three gold out of of every coast field and doesn't take worker turns. Those would more profitably go into Red Dot.

Pottery is valuable because it leads to Writing and lets us build granaries and for cottages in the greener lands.

Not so sure about the Researching Hunting and Archery though since we know where the copper is. Though trading plays a smaller role in a PBEM game, I guess.

grahamiam
Jul 10, 2006, 08:25 AM
the only cottage location that makes sense atm is on the grass river tile. Once we settle to the S, cottages make a lot of sense. However, the main benefit to Pottery will be the granery and our ability to whip :whipped:

Kickbooti
Jul 10, 2006, 09:46 AM
It looks as though Sirian the Wiley has created a land bridge over which we can send mighty armies to vanquish our enemies. I like Sweet's idea of a commerce city on the Isthmus, plus if it is a land brindge rax/walls/castle may be necessary.

Also, I like cottages early, but would the granery right now create problems with happiness?

Also, unless there are methods with which I am unfamiliar, we will need Mysticism to build the obelisk so that our second city can pop culture to grab all the resources.

AND, would it be practical to have an "Archive" thread? By that I mean a list that is kept current with things such as build que, research order, treaties etc. When changes are made we could simply update the list so that turn-players don't have to rely on memory or constantly search threads.

Just a thought.

Tubby Rower
Jul 10, 2006, 09:57 AM
un-happiness in civ4 isn't a big deal in my opinion. We'll eventually get religion and luxes. if you can have the population there when you get it we'll be better off (even though they will be upset and not working at the moment). While it does suck to have a citizen not working, if you can support him being upset then we will have him around once we get enough happy gas to go around.

Superior idea on the Archive thread.

Sweetacshon
Jul 11, 2006, 10:42 AM
Well, if we look to the future (although I'm not sure how long a MTDG will go), 3 plains mines and 5 plains is 11 extra food we need. After the lighthouse, fish, wheat farm, and city will provide 8 extra food. That means 3 extra farms will be needed to work all tiles with 10 cottages - assuming we will want to work all 20 tiles. This will have 19 hammers also. A pretty handy hybrid city.

The other option is a production city, 5 forges and 8 farms, 3 mines. Still work all 20 tiles but with 24 hammers. Actually, I'm not sure the 5 hammers are worth it, now that I look at it like that. Did I do the sums correctly?

Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that we should be careful of cottage spamming the grass squares to early without having a farm or two to speed growth. Sure, :commerce: = CiV power, but pop = :commerce:.

Great idea on archive thread, perhaps team cap could sort it? :salute:

Tubby Rower
Jul 11, 2006, 10:44 AM
Great idea on archive thread, perhaps team cap could sort it? :salute:Who's that... me? What am I supposed to do again :crazyeye:

Whomp
Jul 11, 2006, 11:49 AM
Who's that... me? What am I supposed to do again :crazyeye:
I guess that makes you kind of a Pres. of Piffle aka Tubby Popiffle. Bet you can't say that 10 times real fast.

Tubs I think it would be similar to our "Stupid Decisions" summary thread at K.I.S.S.

Kickbooti
Jul 11, 2006, 11:53 AM
Great idea on archive thread, perhaps team cap could sort it? :salute:

Don't look at me. I'm the :worship: "Idea Guy", :worship: the Muse is my constant companion. You can't expect me to be the "Get Stuff Done Guy" [pissed] :gripe: :badcomp: :wallbash:, that would upset the delicate balance the Muse requires.

Tubby Rower
Jul 11, 2006, 01:25 PM
I can work on this tomorrow when I get to work. Post any major decisions that are not obvious.

Sweetacshon
Jul 16, 2006, 06:17 AM
*refer to post #132 for tech tree*

We have, what was it, 6?? turns left for pottery, so where do we want to go after that? Hunting/Archery don't seem too important, as we'll have copper online soon, as well as horses, althouh spears can be very useful if we get into conflict - unlikely at this stage. We will need culural expansion in Hamburger to gain the copper, so what are the teams thoughts on meditation for obelisk next up?

As for the medium term future, what about heading for financial wonders like collosus (we have copper :)) and, say, great lighthouse? By the time London spits out a worker and another settler, and maybe a building, we should have Metal Casting, Hamburger should be able to hold its own and take over the prod'n role while we settle the 3rd southern city, and London can go for the Collosus (doubt anyone else will go for it.)

With two cities on the isthmus will just a lighthouse in each, and +1 income each coastal tile, that's a pretty good income.

Kickbooti
Jul 16, 2006, 06:26 AM
Sweet is right, we need the culture pop for copper, I'm for Meditation after Pottery.

Bede
Jul 16, 2006, 11:43 AM
Actually it is Mysticism after Pottery.

And the Colussus/Great Lighthouse combo with our traits and the map layout should be a winner for us.

Whomp
Jul 16, 2006, 11:51 AM
I like that plan.

Tubby can tell ya. He had nearly a tundra start in our pitboss game as a financial and got the Glighthouse. He and I (Liz) are neck and neck in GNP and pretty far ahead of everyone else.

Oldbus
Jul 16, 2006, 03:34 PM
All sounds good to me. Once we've decided, it would be helpful to have that decisions/archive page up - it's obviously not just me that worries about doing the wrong thing.

Sweetacshon
Jul 16, 2006, 08:02 PM
Actually it is Mysticism after Pottery.

:rolleyes: I'm agnostic, what would I know? ;)

Tubby Rower
Jul 17, 2006, 05:32 AM
I thought about the Collosus but the Great Light house is much more powerful. It adds 2 trade routes until the Corporation. For the Great Light house to be most effective, we need to settle on the coast whereever possible. Also harbors add 50% to each trade route. So that's a potential of 8 extra :commerce: minimum in each city that is on the coast (6 of which no other civ can match).

Collosus is a nice accompanying wonder, but not necessary IMO.

grahamiam
Jul 17, 2006, 07:17 AM
How many cities are we shooting for before building wonders? I'd prefer at least 4-5 cities so we can have a few spitting out units for defense.

Tubby Rower
Jul 17, 2006, 07:22 AM
I think that maybe once we have 3-4 cities AND the capital up to ~20 :hammers: per turn.

Stone will help the GLH construction, I can't remember if we have it or not.

Sweetacshon
Jul 17, 2006, 08:37 AM
I thought about the Collosus but the Great Light house is much more powerful. It adds 2 trade routes until the Corporation. For the Great Light house to be most effective, we need to settle on the coast whereever possible. Also harbors add 50% to each trade route. So that's a potential of 8 extra :commerce: minimum in each city that is on the coast (6 of which no other civ can match).

Not sure how you got 8, but I do agree with you. If you look at the Collosus (and remember, we have copper) each coastal city gets 1 extra :commerce:, that'd be about 4-6 extra per average coastal city, but 2 cities on the isthmus with a lighthouse, harbour, and probably granary would rake it in, in the early game. Even if happiness causes problems at size 6, that'd be 18:commerce: per turn less maintenance, per city. Later on, the GLh would outstrip it, and I guess we'd get Astro eventually (although we wouldn't have to), but before we even know of enough cities to make the GLh worthwhile, the Collosus would be at it's peak.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the GLh, but I think we should go for both. We are financial (aren't we?), so let's play to our strengths. If we want to kick arse here, this seems like as good a plan as any... so far at least. :)

A quick sketch: (granted, we haven't seen all our territory yet)
Let's say we can afford to settle 5-6 cities before the economy starts to dive, and it will, but that's ok because 2 of them will be on the isthmus. The capital and the red dot we have already pretty much agreed on, perhaps one down south on the river, and one further up on the NW coast with hills and forests for a rushed GLh a little later. We build the Collosus after, say, London has built 2 more settlers, and when the mines are in (not neglecting miliary, of course). 3 plains mines = 12+:hammers: per turn, with the copper, means the Collosus is done in 10 turns or so!!:goodjob: By this time, the other cities should be able to take over unit production duties. Soon enough after that we could build an army, or coninue expansion.
:commerce: = tech lead = power lead = game lead.

Phew, sorry, long post. I had such a rosy picture to paint.

Bede
Jul 17, 2006, 09:03 AM
It boils down ot this: like the Oracle the Colussus is cheap and though the benefits may be shortlived, they are huge for a Financial coastal oriented nation.

Tubby Rower
Jul 17, 2006, 09:13 AM
The GLH is obsoleted by Corporation I thought. Although Astronomy makes more sense.

The 8 gpt for each city comes from :

2 extra trade routes for GLH (+2 :commerce: minimum each) = 4 :commerce:
+1 :commerce: (50% of 2 = 1) for each trade route for harbor = 4 :commerce:

there is 6 :commerce: that will come from the GLH & harbor that no one will be able to match. the other 2 :commerce: are from the normal trade routes and will likely not be matched by other civs since it doesn't pay back that much. for a total of 8

Sweetacshon
Jul 17, 2006, 09:20 AM
Yep, Corp for GL, and Astro for Collosus - although we could delay Astro indefinitely.

Three trade routes = 6 minimum, +50% = 9:commerce:, doesnt it?
I dunno.. it's late here :)

Tubby Rower
Jul 17, 2006, 09:34 AM
GLH adds +2 trade routes not +3 IIRC.

Kickbooti
Jul 17, 2006, 12:26 PM
Alright Tubby and Sweet, calm down. It's all fun and games unitl you start thowing slide rulers and someone's eye gets poked out. ;)

You guys are the greatest.

Whomp
Jul 17, 2006, 07:16 PM
Alright Tubby and Sweet, calm down. It's all fun and games unitl you start thowing slide rulers and someone's eye gets poked out. ;)

You guys are the greatest.
:lol: What's up with these brainiacs. I'm so happy there on our team Bootilicious.
Kind of reminds me of this quote...

I understand that you little guys start out with your woobies and you think they're great... and they are, they are terrific. But pretty soon, a woobie isn't enough. You're out on the street trying to score an electric blanket, or maybe a quilt. And the next thing you know, you're strung out on bedspreads Ken. (Tubby and Sweet) That's serious.

Sweetacshon
Jul 18, 2006, 12:46 AM
OK.. calming down... calming down.. THREE TRADE ROU.. :smoke: ahhh... calming down... calming down... :hammer2: .. and I'm calm. :sleep:

@Tubby, I thought you got 1 TR .. just for being a city.. and 2 from GL?? Anyway, it's all :gold: [party] [pimp]

:) What's the quote from?

Tubby Rower
Jul 18, 2006, 07:26 AM
Sweechaschon has taken up my slack and started this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=177928) a couple of days ago. Let's try to keep the posts in there to a minimum. and discuss here.

After pottery we're going after Mysticism or Masonry? I'd prefer Masonry as that will lead to the GLH. And for the next build after the settler finishes... what about a barracks. We'll eventually need one, and it doesn't make sense to have a bunch of in-enxperienced warriors running around.

Oldbus
Jul 18, 2006, 08:57 AM
After pottery we're going after Mysticism or Masonry? I'd prefer Masonry as that will lead to the GLH. And for the next build after the settler finishes... what about a barracks. We'll eventually need one, and it doesn't make sense to have a bunch of in-enxperienced warriors running around.

Both of those sound good to me

Sweetacshon
Jul 18, 2006, 10:06 AM
Mysticism was for the obelisk in the new city to get the copper online asap. I think we should do that first, considering we seem to be skipping archery.

I think we should build the (not so great) lighthouse before barracks, but not constructing these until we mine the second plains hill would save quite a bit of time. If you take a look at London here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132109&d=1152495264), 5 population seems to be th happiness limit, and with a lighthouse, we could work all 3 coastal tiles and two mines (when built) with one spare food. Thats 9:hammers: and 10 :commerce: and a food surplus. Good times!! The barracks would be very fast after that.
With this in mind, after the settler, I think a worker (very important imo, so many mines, farms, cottages to build), then warrior (or perhaps warrior til pop, then worker?), then settler or lighthouse, and then barracks, and maybe stick an axeman in there somewhere.

I don't think Tubby and myself are going to agree on which wonder to aim for first.. what does everyone else think, Collosus or GL??

Tubby Rower
Jul 18, 2006, 10:11 AM
Ah... I was wondering why the religious tech when we prolly aren't getting a religous holy site.

So Myst then Masonry/Metalworking depending on what everyone else thinks about the GLH/Collosus debacle. I won't post further comment unless asked to on that debate....

Sweetacshon
Jul 18, 2006, 10:22 AM
I'll also refrain (if I can ;)), and if nobody else voices an opinion, we can flip a :commerce: :)

Kickbooti
Jul 18, 2006, 04:38 PM
I'll also refrain (if I can ;)), and if nobody else voices an opinion, we can flip a :commerce: :)

Is that one :commerce: if we haven't built a lighthouse, or do we need two :commerce: :undecide: I'm so confused.

Okay, I already messed up the 'Archive' thread, can we pull that post out?

And I'm for Mysticism first, for the culture to grab copper.

Although, I do like organized religion as a civic - surprise, surprise - but you do get the 25% bumb for building in the cities. After Myst - Masonry I would propse looking at the possiblity of going for Monotheism. We MAY get a religion that could bump our economy, and we could get the intelligence bonus that missionaries would bring.

A debate for the future, but something to consider.

Bede
Jul 18, 2006, 04:40 PM
With this in mind, after the settler, I think a worker (very important imo, so many mines, farms, cottages to build), then warrior (or perhaps warrior til pop, then worker?), then settler or lighthouse, and then barracks, and maybe stick an axeman in there somewhere.

I like this plan, especially the warrior 'til growth and then the worker. Then the lighthouse as it will help with the settler (we will pull +1f from the fishing nets) then settler, then consider a barracks. We really only need warriors for MP duty right now, once the copper is on line we can spend hammers on those more expensive guys and then is when we want the barracks.

As for tech route: Mysticism then Masonry then when its convenient start the Great Lighthouse in London.

Conroe
Jul 18, 2006, 09:13 PM
If you take a look at London here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132109&d=1152495264), 5 population seems to be th happiness limit, I notice in that screenshot that there is no MP in London. In solo games, you get a -1 happiness when there is no MP ("fear for our safety"). No clue if it works the same in multiplayer. Assuming it does, we can grow to size 6 if we bring a Warrior home.

Sweetacshon
Jul 19, 2006, 12:02 AM
Yep, you're absolutely right. We just didn't need the happiness (although we do now). I'll update the archive.

Am I gathering from this that absolutely nobody but me wants metalworking/ Collosus before GL?? :cry:

Sweetacshon
Jul 19, 2006, 09:55 AM
Archive updated, added a few maps and the tech tree. I notice that Masonary is cheaper than MW by 8 to 43 (turns), which effectively ends (my)debate on which wonder we should go for first, I think. On the other end of the timeline, Astronomy comes at around the same time as Corporation, and is more expensive. Interesting.

The other thing is that if we ae not ready to build the GL until we have a few more cities out first, we could research something else before masonary, such as writing, iron working, or metalworki... I mean archery.

Tubby Rower
Jul 19, 2006, 10:19 AM
Doesn't a regular lighthouse require masonry? if so I think that it still might be better to get it after Mysticism. That way we can get +1 :food: out of the water tiles.

As far as the Corporation vs Astronomy tech cost, Corporation isn't necessary for a while and by the time we get to that point we'll also be concerned with getting calvary, cannons, and riflemen. Galleons are needed much more than the stock markets that the Corporation brings. Corporation isn't needed until Assembly Line (infantry). Corporation also allows +1 :traderoute: per city so it will reduce the number of :traderoute: in the coastal cities but increase the :traderoute: in the inland cities. So it might be beneficial when we get there.

Conroe
Jul 19, 2006, 11:09 AM
Doesn't a regular lighthouse require masonry? if so I think that it still might be better to get it after Mysticism. That way we can get +1 :food: out of the water tiles.Sailing enables the Lighthouse, while Masonry enables the Great Lighthouse. In order to build the Great Lighthouse, though, the city must first have a Lighthouse. HTH

Am I gathering from this that absolutely nobody but me wants metalworking/ Collosus before GL?? :cry:Honestly, I think the Pyramids are a better wonder than both of them. Representation would be great since we are Philosophical. Plus a couple of extra early happy faces ... Downside is that it is really expensive to build. :sad: It may not be worth the hammer investment unless we have some big stones laying around.

Kickbooti
Jul 19, 2006, 12:46 PM
On a completely inconsequential note, can we change the name of London?

I'm fine with calling it Piffle, or Bovine Scatology, or balderdash, flimflam, baloney, bilge, bull, claptrap, garbage, hogwash, horsefeathers, poppycock, rot, rubbish, tomfoolery, tommyrot, trash, absurdity, hokum, twadle, hooey, bunk or even Amway.

Conroe
Jul 19, 2006, 12:57 PM
On a completely inconsequential note, can we change the name of London?How about Nodnol? Any Red Dwarf fans among us?

Oldbus
Jul 19, 2006, 01:15 PM
Bovine Scatology has a nice ring to it. Plus I would love to make any aggressive warmongers in this game come and demand that we give them BS...

I think I prefer the name Tom Foolery to be given to a future unit.

Kickbooti
Jul 19, 2006, 02:37 PM
Wow, so many dot-mapping possiblities.

I am adding this map of the Isthmus with a city site in red that seems good to me (hills for production, water for commerce/food, forest for health) and one in blue that is COMPLETLEY speculative until we see more territory.

Could the dot-mappers help me see if the red dot is good, bad or otherwise.

Also, are there any calculators/resources you can point me toward that help you in your geeky pursuits (aka - where do I buy a slide rule)?

Conroe
Jul 19, 2006, 03:00 PM
Could the dot-mappers help me see if the red dot is good, bad or otherwise.With no resources in the city radius, there really is nothing remarkable about red dot. In fact, it should be moved 1-tile SW onto that desert tile. Doing that you pick up the wheat and would then have some food available to actually work those hill tiles. As an added benefit, you use up a worthless desert tile thus freeing the 2 food grassland for an improvement.

Note that there is a freshwater lake. Those lake tiles will be 3 food after a lighthouse has been built. Maybe put anycolor dot 1W of the lake to get the food from the lake and encompass all 3 forests for production.

Honestly, though, I really so no priority in any cities on this isthmus. That may change once we learn about things like iron and oil ...

Tubby Rower
Jul 19, 2006, 08:33 PM
I agree with Conroe, since there is a desert tile move it off of the grass to the desert. And a city on the desert by the lake sounds good too. That's 4 cities that get +2 :traderoute: :woohoo:

Sweetacshon
Jul 20, 2006, 09:54 AM
There's another thing to throw into the mix. If you look closely to the NW of the lake, there is a (unsignposted) fish resource!!! This brings somewhere like W of the lake into play. Blue dot looks ok, and btw, there is ivory and jungle in the fog further NE.

Kickbooti
Jul 20, 2006, 10:32 AM
I see the wisdom of the suggestions of the 'red dot.' Thanks.

The blue is highly speculative. It depends on what continues to be uncovered, but I envisioned it as a stratigic location that would allow naval movement and (probably) a wall/castle/bunker block to what I am assuming is a land bridge. Of course if any of those assumptions are faulty my 'blue dot' is faulty too.

grahamiam
Jul 20, 2006, 10:33 AM
There's another thing to throw into the mix. If you look closely to the NW of the lake, there is a (unsignposted) fish resource!!! This brings somewhere like W of the lake into play. Blue dot looks ok, and btw, there is ivory and jungle in the fog further NE.
and with a lighthouse, those lakes make 3fpt. imho, the red dot (in the lakes picture) should move N 3T and W 1T to the desert. It will then have 3 forests to also work, getting it up to 5spt. Maybe even put a workshop on the grass to get some more shields.

for the red dot, i'd move it SW 1 or 2T (to desert hill, still allows boat passage to the E) to take advantage of the wheat (unless there's something already planned down there)

Conroe
Jul 20, 2006, 12:21 PM
There's another thing to throw into the mix. If you look closely to the NW of the lake, there is a (unsignposted) fish resource!!!Good eye! I totally missed the seafood. That makes 1W of the lake a much bettter city site.

for the red dot, i'd move it SW 1 or 2T (to desert hill, still allows boat passage to the E) to take advantage of the wheat (unless there's something already planned down there)By putting red dot on a hill, the city picks up that Oasis tile and the hill defense bonus. It might also pull that incense into the borders a little quicker (not really sure). But, at the cost of the hammers from mining the hill. I'd probably be inclined to leave it at 1SW.

Oldbus
Jul 21, 2006, 11:24 AM
Could we agree to make sure we turn tiles & resources on before taking screenshots? It makes it a lot easier when looking at stuff without a copy of civ to hand.

Ahem...I might have been doing the cartography stuff too long :mischief:

Whomp
Jul 21, 2006, 11:30 AM
Could we agree to make sure we turn tiles & resources on before taking screenshots? It makes it a lot easier when looking at stuff without a copy of civ to hand.

Ahem...I might have been doing the cartography stuff too long :mischief:
Quite the cartographer I might add. We need a cartography room and I nominate you Oldbus. I'm a visual guy so it would help me a lot.

Did you guys aware that we can look at old saves as long as we don't move workers or units?

Sweetacshon
Jul 25, 2006, 12:24 PM
So I renamed our fair city Balderdash. We didn't really reach a decision there, so... To make things harder, the next city goes in next turn. We had Ham Sandwich and Hamburger, but now that there's copper involved... Hamburger with Wire?

We are in fourth spot now. Anyone know how the Leader could be so far ahead?

Whoever plays the next turn, remember to change the tiles worked in Balderdash.

Conroe
Jul 25, 2006, 12:34 PM
We are in fourth spot now. Anyone know how the Leader could be so far ahead?Four things comprise score: land, population, technology, wonders. We are the GNP leaders, so it probably isn't tech. We are tied for first in population, so probably not that either. Have we seen any messages about wonders being built? That could do it. Also, the demographics screen shows someone has 30 tiles of land (compared to our 18) which could possibly do it, as well.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if we jump to 2nd after our new city is founded.

Sweetacshon
Jul 25, 2006, 12:42 PM
We're only 1st in GNP 'cause I MMed. I don't think there have been any wonders, but we could've missed it. Maybe a creative civ with rligion has expanded boundaries?

Conroe
Jul 25, 2006, 12:50 PM
We're only 1st in GNP 'cause I MMed. I don't think there have been any wonders, but we could've missed it. Maybe a creative civ with rligion has expanded boundaries?You may have just MM'ed it, but look back through your demographics screenshots. I saw that we were 1st in GNP for the last couple turns. As for wonders, hit the F9 screen and look at the wonders tab to see if any have been built.

Our only creative civ is team Aloha in last place. The Leader is team Epsilon playing as Qin (Ind/Fin). Also take a look at the scorecard you posted in turn 42. Team Innovia (Saladin) had 84 points and were in last place. Now in turn 44 they have 104 points and are in 2nd place.

Bede
Jul 25, 2006, 08:34 PM
A jump of 20 points is accounted for by a new settlement, I'm pretty sure.

When our town goes down the leader board will change again, probably to put us first.

pindicator
Jul 25, 2006, 10:14 PM
Isn't there a 20-turn window before points from land are counted? I thought I remembered reading that in one of the patches to counter MP games where people would spam settle new towns at the last turn of an MP game to take the lead.

Conroe
Jul 26, 2006, 09:36 PM
the next city goes in next turn.Since our new city gets built on the next turn, have we decided what it is going to start working on? I would suggest a Worker.

pindicator
Jul 27, 2006, 01:34 AM
A worker is a solid choice; but most of it's resources need a cultural pop to obtain

Tubby Rower
Jul 27, 2006, 05:53 AM
Also a worker build at pop 1 isn't a good move as it stiffles growth while you are producing a worker at the slowest pace possible. I'd suggest starting a barracks.

Kickbooti
Jul 27, 2006, 07:44 AM
I'd hold off on the worker for now. I think an obelisk for the culture pop is most necessary, but since we don't have mysticism I'd work for a baracks or a lighthouse.

Conroe
Jul 27, 2006, 09:20 AM
Also a worker build at pop 1 isn't a good move as it stiffles growth while you are producing a worker at the slowest pace possible.At pop 1 it will take 15 turns (normal speed) for a Worker. At pop 2 it will take 12 turns. Assuming the wheat is immediately farmed, it will take 8 turns to grow to pop 2. Considering that we currently have only 1 Worker, I think it is a good trade off.

Although, the better idea might be to build a Worker until Mysticism comes in, and then switch to an Obelisk. Then go back to the Worker.


Edit: My math was wrong. I forgot to take into account the farming of the wheat. At pop 1, it will take 12 turns for a Worker, and 9 turns at pop 2. Still only a difference of 3 turns, though. Sorry 'bout that!

Tubby Rower
Jul 27, 2006, 10:48 AM
well if we need a worker, I would prefer to build one in our capital rather than delay the growth of our second city

edit ::, but I might be wrong

grahamiam
Jul 27, 2006, 10:58 AM
I would prefer the worker right away. Overall, the city will grow faster if it starts with a worker than if it grows to size 2 1st and then does a worker. Capitol needs to do other things, imho.

Conroe
Jul 27, 2006, 11:10 AM
If I understand SweetAcshon's archive thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=177928), London is scheduled to start another Worker next turn. Personally, I think we should stick with this build (5 turns IIRC).

I still think the new city should start building us a 3rd Worker. We are going to need more and more Workers real soon. Plus, what else can the city build? We have not met another civ in 40+ turns; we appear to be quite alone on this patch of land. A Barracks really isn't a high priority at the moment. With 2 food resources on land, the new city won't be working coastal tiles for awhile; so no pressing need for a Lighthouse. An Obelisk is a high priority, for which we don't yet have the tech. That leaves a Settler or a Worker. Either would be a good choice.

At this stage of the game, I think we should be prioritizing our builds based upon what we need right now or in the next 10 to 15 turns.

Kickbooti
Jul 27, 2006, 12:29 PM
Conroe has convinced me. I will save my pig-headedness for future diplomacy :D

Go for a worker, switch to obelisk when available, finish worker. Thus saith the Booti that Kicks...

Oldbus
Jul 27, 2006, 01:12 PM
The problem with delaying a barracks is that (depending upon who you meet) once you realise you need it, it may be too late to build it. Just because we have met no-one for 40 turns is not a guarantee we won't meet someone soon. Indeed, the longer we go without meeting anyone would make it more likely we will meet someone?

Tubby Rower
Jul 27, 2006, 01:16 PM
I'd still like to build the barracks too. I just don't have the energy to fight for it at the moment.

grahamiam
Jul 27, 2006, 01:25 PM
since the 2nd worker is slated for from the capitol, i'd prefer that the new city actually build infrastructure rather than another worker. rax would be good. I don't see the immediate need for 3 workers right now.

Bede
Jul 27, 2006, 06:59 PM
Start the barracks, switch to a worker when the town gets its growth, then build the obelisk after the barracks finishes. By then we should all the techs we need for whatever purpose we might have in mind.

Sweetacshon
Jul 28, 2006, 01:16 AM
OK, so I read the consensus as barracks first. Obviously we want to get an obelisk in there asap, so we could keep maxing commerce to speed science to mysticism, OR max food to get the worker out of Balderdash quicker (I think it'll take about 4-5 turns), which will help with mines and prod'n, cottaging, get the lighthouse in quicker, etc.

The second issue is Bubba.. where to go next? Do those of a diplomatic nature want to start talking to Epsilon, or is it too early for that?

Sweetacshon
Jul 28, 2006, 02:21 AM
Is anyone playing SGOTM2?

Tubby Rower
Jul 28, 2006, 05:45 AM
I was just looking at the demographics screen. we have 21 GNP while the next closest rival has 12. :wow: how is that possible that we are that far ahead?

grahamiam
Jul 28, 2006, 07:01 AM
The second issue is Bubba.. where to go next? Do those of a diplomatic nature want to start talking to Epsilon, or is it too early for that?
Yes, we absolutely must send them a letter saying "hi". Something silly to fit our title, no? Bubba should keep going and exploring. Perhaps there's another team near there.

Tubby Rower
Jul 28, 2006, 08:58 AM
Well I had to go look up who was on Epsilon and it appears as though the first three memebers of the Episilon team is the MIA crew from civ3 MTDG. so we likely need to contact Irongold again.

Bede
Jul 28, 2006, 09:16 AM
Call for Mr Whomp! Call for Mr Whomp!

I suppose I need to start a Department of Stranger Affairs thread.

pindicator
Jul 28, 2006, 09:39 AM
There already is a Foreign Affairs thread (that isn't getting any use)

Conroe
Jul 28, 2006, 09:42 AM
I was just looking at the demographics screen. we have 21 GNP while the next closest rival has 12. :wow: how is that possible that we are that far ahead?Comparing the 2 demographics screens, it looks like some MM happened. We went from 15->21 in GNP but we dropped from 8->3 in production. Take a look at the population number. We went from 48->91, with almost twice our nearest rival. :eek: Overall, our demographics are pretty impressive.


This map is starting to remind me of the hub map script. A normal hub map has tundra in the middle rather than jungle; so I'm not really sure. In any case, Sirian has certainly made the map interesting. :thumbsup:

Tubby Rower
Jul 28, 2006, 10:01 AM
Expanding to the middle might be a good idea as Sirian likely has put us some nice resources up there and it will also allow for a quicker strike to any foes.

Whomp
Jul 28, 2006, 12:00 PM
Holy cow! I get to be somebody finally. Let's see how many "hmm's" I can use.

Kickbooti
Jul 30, 2006, 06:36 AM
Since we have met someone on the other side of the Isthmus, and since it seems that they have some respectable players (from the banter I'm reading) is it too early to propose setting up a blocking city on the Isthmus to put up walls, caslte and all that stuff?

And is it wise to make that city our next plant?

It is probably too much to hope for that their warrior will not run down the isthmus since he has found our little red-neck so close to it, but I would LOVE to stop them from sending down scouts at their leasure...

Conroe
Jul 30, 2006, 01:24 PM
is it too early to propose setting up a blocking city on the Isthmus to put up walls, caslte and all that stuff?

And is it wise to make that city our next plant?I don't play MP, but it would seem reasonable to me.

We may want to consider not moving Bubba this next turn, to see which direction Dark Pumba goes next.

Whomp
Jul 30, 2006, 01:38 PM
I think that's a good idea Conroe. I think we should see where he's headed.

Oldbus
Jul 30, 2006, 03:55 PM
Some stuff from Turn 46:

Balderdash
Local Area http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2079/balderdashan1.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balderdashan1.jpg) City http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8135/balderdashcityws7.th.jpg (http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balderdashcityws7.jpg)

Hamburger
Local Area http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6876/hamburgeroi2.th.jpg (http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hamburgeroi2.jpg) City http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7937/hamburgercityay2.th.jpg (http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hamburgercityay2.jpg)

Regional Map
North of Peninsular
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/5895/mapnlo0.th.jpg (http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapnlo0.jpg)
Southern end of Peninsular
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/4526/mapcgh8.th.jpg (http://img110.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapcgh8.jpg)
Area around our cities
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1525/mapsdt1.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapsdt1.jpg)


One thing you'll notice is that we're no longer second :( King Kong is scaling the heights of the leaderboard and swatting off the Piffles

Conroe
Jul 30, 2006, 07:59 PM
I couldn't see Dark Puma, so I moved Bubba further north and revealed more water plus copper and bananas.Dark Puma has his Woodsman II promotion, allowing double movement. If he went east past Bubba, we would have been able to see him. North of the peak is water, which leaves 1S of the banana where you would find Dark Puma.

Is Dark Puma heading home or continuing to explore? Assuming he's not heading home, could we infer that Epsilon is to the east of Bubba? Or do we need more map?

One thing you'll notice is that we're no longer second :( King Kong is scaling the heights of the leaderboard and swatting off the PifflesBefore we built Hamburger, King Kong was ahead of us by 1 point. Now he is ahead of us again by 1 point. My guess is that they just built another city. Is it their second or third? Our score will jump again once Pottery comes in.

Conroe
Jul 30, 2006, 08:09 PM
One more thing after looking at that screenshot of London. If we move the 2 citizens working coastal tiles to the grassland forests, we will pick up 4 more hammers on our Worker build. But, at the cost of 6 beakers. We may want to evaluate that trade off and see what the impact is in turns. I don't know if it will be worth it, since an Obelisk is a high priority.

Sweetacshon
Jul 31, 2006, 10:00 PM
MM analysis:

Mysticism 71 (-15 = 56), Worker 60 (-10 = 50)
*brackets are overflow*
*Hamburger gives 2 :science:*

both coastal tiles: 21 :science: 9 :hammers: = myst 3T (7), worker 6T (4)
coast/ forest: 18 :science: 11 :hammers: = myst 4T (16), worker 5T (5)
both forest: 15 :science: 13 :hammers: = myst 4T (4), worker 4T (2)

Moving both to the forest seems the best bet, imo.

On Dark Puma's whereabouts, I think it's more likely that he went straight past Bubba and down to the isthmus, and he's on the jungle 1NE of the rice. He could've moved there and been out of our sight (just) last turn, and it makes sense considering he came from the NW. I think there is a 50% chance he might be heading our way.. what would you do, take the bridge or the mainland?

If he does come down - it took 10 turns or so for Bubba to get to his current pos from the isthmus desert, so we'd have 20 turns max before DP reached us. 3 turns for myst, 10?? for obelisk, 5?? for culture pop, 8?? to mine... whatever the numbers are, we wont have axes in time. Maybe we should post a guard up on the land bridge to give us a little time to beef up the defences just a little more if he is coming down. Ok, so it's a pessimistic view - he may not come down, and may not attack, but it's not worth getting caught with your pants down, imo.

Tubby Rower
Aug 01, 2006, 05:20 AM
I'm not concerned about our capital. Some of them have seen what an early war can do to both civs in the [c3c] MTDG. I'm fine with both coastal tiles, but it others thing that production is important, then go for both forests so that we can squirt out stuff quicker so that we can get back on the research track.

Conroe
Aug 01, 2006, 08:56 AM
On Dark Puma's whereabouts, I think it's more likely that he went straight past Bubba and down to the isthmus, and he's on the jungle 1NE of the rice.:hmm: I think you may be right. I missed that tile. Good eye! That would probably indicate that west of Bubba is where we would find Epsilon, would it not?

Sweetacshon
Aug 01, 2006, 09:02 PM
It's a fair assumption, Conroe :) Then again, look how far Bubba has walked! Still, west seems more likely to me.

I'm not concerned about our capital. Some of them have seen what an early war can do to both civs in the [c3c] MTDG.

You're right, of course. I was being pessimistic.. I guess I was thinking of the CiV main DG which just took a beating because Bismark saw an opportunity. What about the "gatekeeper" city on the isthmus then? If we go straight for settler (and warrior, I suppose) after the worker, it would mean delaying lighthouse/ barracks/ galley again. Bah... who cares about that?! Anyone want to dotmap, now that we have a full picture of the bridge?

Conroe
Aug 01, 2006, 11:44 PM
What about the "gatekeeper" city on the isthmus then? If we go straight for settler (and warrior, I suppose) after the worker, it would mean delaying lighthouse/ barracks/ galley again. Bah... who cares about that?! Anyone want to dotmap, now that we have a full picture of the bridge?I, too, think we should go with a Settler next. Maybe even chop or whip it? Probably put it on red dot (I think that was the color) -- the desert tile at the base of the isthmus. I couldn't remember the thread with the dot map discussion, but there was discussion of a desert tile that picks up the wheat and the 2 hills.

Tubby Rower
Aug 02, 2006, 05:27 AM
Settler after the worker in Balderdash sounds fine to me. Whipping it should be a last resort, but I'm not opposed to it. Chopping would be best. Chopping forests directly adjacent to the city would be much preferred as attackers can use forests as a nice hiding spot when attacking. And when patch 1.61 came out you get more hammers from closer forests anyway.

Sweetacshon
Aug 03, 2006, 07:39 AM
Just one point for the last turn, slavery is available. Do we want to switch to it, or is this a silly question?

grahamiam
Aug 03, 2006, 01:19 PM
Whipping it should be a last resort, but I'm not opposed to it. I disagree. Whipping should be abused, especially if we have a granery :D However, it may not be time yet for whipping abuse and those trees have got to go.

As for the slavery question, are we shooting for another civic soonish (Monarchy?) if so, does it make sense to wait and get 2 civics for the price of 1 anarchy?

Conroe
Aug 03, 2006, 03:08 PM
Unless we plan on whipping that Worker, I don't think we should consider switching civics until after it is complete. Units can at least still be productive during anarchy.

Sweetacshon
Aug 04, 2006, 03:13 AM
I disagree. Whipping should be abused, especially if we have a granery :D However, it may not be time yet for whipping abuse and those trees have got to go.

I'm not sure we should chop until we get at least 1 more mine in, and maybe even save the trees for the GL? Also, I'm all for the whip with a granary involved, although with three mined plains hills, is it worth it?

Sweetacshon
Aug 07, 2006, 11:50 AM
I added a new map to the archive (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4281857#post4281857). Does anyone think there might be a resource rich central land mass that we're all meant to fight over?

Sweetacshon
Aug 09, 2006, 12:11 PM
I guess not :)

Issues:
Settler in Balders - I think everyone in agreeance on this. What about the whip? We do have alot of food, and we could get the settler out quite quickly ( I think it's about 10 tuns normally). If not on the settler, then on granary (which makes it more feasible), lighthouse, barracks? OK, so we just discussed it, I don't know why I wrote all that, but it does impact on worker tasks:

Workers
- Hamb. doesn't have much to do (til obelisk). Mine a plains hill?
- Bald. could mine (would be good if we don't want to whip), farm (don't really need it yet), cottage (getting a fair bit from the sea), road toward isthmus (?)

pindicator
Aug 10, 2006, 12:21 AM
The only issue I can think with the settler is defending the town. Do we have warriors around to place in a city on the isthmus? I'm all for whipping it to get the city out there soon, especially with our food, as long as we can have a defender or two there by the time the settler shows (otherwise whipping seems silly). But the less other teams know about our core, the better.

Likewise, the worker actions really depend on what we do with Bald. If we wihp a settler, definitely need to build that road. If we don't, then mine a hill before building a road. Don't think we should farm or cottage now: we've already decided against Bald. being a cottage town, so we better stick with that, and I agree that it is too early to farm those tiles.

Tubby Rower
Aug 10, 2006, 05:46 AM
I think that if the worker is not needed for anything... road. Roads will help us to get units to where they need to be, settlers out quicker, and resources automatically hooked up after being improved.

I would prefer cottages over anything else.

Oldbus
Aug 12, 2006, 06:43 AM
From Turn 51, 1960 BC:

The World
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/577/theworldkd2.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theworldkd2.jpg)
Pifflemania
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6061/pifflemaniadr4.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pifflemaniadr4.jpg)
Balderdash
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/691/balderdashft0.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balderdashft0.jpg)
Hamburger
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7254/hamburgersh4.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hamburgersh4.jpg)
Bubba
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4125/bubbaei6.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bubbaei6.jpg)
Billy Bob
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7295/billybobxj9.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=billybobxj9.jpg)

pindicator
Aug 12, 2006, 10:46 AM
Next person needs to remember to switch Hamburger to an Obelisk. And did we decide to do the settler in Balderdash?

Sweetacshon
Aug 13, 2006, 11:24 PM
Yep, settler in BD. The lighthouse has been in the queue for a while now.

Conroe
Aug 16, 2006, 11:11 AM
Yep, settler in BD. The lighthouse has been in the queue for a while now.With 2 food resources available to Balderdash, I would suggest building a Granary before the Lighthouse (after the Settler, of course).

The only issue I can think with the settler is defending the town. Do we have warriors around to place in a city on the isthmus?I may have missed it, but I didn't see the answer to this question.

Whomp
Aug 16, 2006, 11:41 AM
We need to respond to the Leader's offer. If we have a tech/peace deal the only concern with the settler would be barbs.

pindicator
Aug 16, 2006, 10:57 PM
I like the deal..

...and looking at the pictures (to answer my own question) there are no warriors anywhere near the isthmus. Maybe we need to sneak one in between settler turns just to escort the settler over. Or we can risk wild animals / barbarians / Epsilon's honoring a peace deal.

Tubby Rower
Aug 17, 2006, 05:29 AM
I'm fine with the peace/tech deal. Just no 10 turn notice crap. Set a date (turn).

Kickbooti
Aug 17, 2006, 10:24 AM
I'd say slip a warrior in the build que, I'd hate to waste a settler.

Or, if we are confident barbs won't be a problem and that speed was essential, we could take the warrior from Balderdash and then build it.

In fact, since we don't have axemen yet, I think we need a few extra warriors around in case the barbs do start heading for our cities.

Kickbooti
Aug 17, 2006, 11:21 AM
Are we settling the Isthmus next? I couldn't remember if that was the concnsus.

And if so, a sutiable red-neck name could be "Panama-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ahhh"

Kickbooti
Aug 23, 2006, 03:43 PM
This place seems as good as any to say "Welcome Killercane!" I'm curious to know if word of Team Piffle's awesomeness has spread abroad or if Whomp is on a recruiting kick.

Either way, glad you're here.

Whomp
Aug 23, 2006, 03:49 PM
It wasn't me but I must say it was a mighty fine acquistion.

Tubby Rower
Aug 24, 2006, 06:00 AM
Hi Killer :wavey: now we have 3 Casey's on the team :woohoo: I'm no longer the guy who was named after everyone's dog :crazyeye:

Daghdha
Aug 24, 2006, 09:10 AM
Long time no check. How the heck we're doing? Have we only met 1 team? Do we have any :beer: ? Is London swinging :dance: ?

Tubby Rower
Aug 24, 2006, 09:12 AM
We no longer have London. MIA has swept across the countryside to... wait wrong game.

London was renamed to Balderdash or sumping like that .

killercane
Aug 25, 2006, 02:19 AM
I couldnt resist the free beer and good company.

pindicator
Aug 26, 2006, 05:16 PM
Is anybody else worried that our military is a bit light right now? Light as in paper-thin.

killercane
Aug 26, 2006, 05:53 PM
Is anybody else worried that our military is a bit light right now? Light as in paper-thin.
Along with no slavery to save the day in an emergency? Are you concerned with Barbs or one of our dastardly enemies? I dont know when barbs really become a threat at Prince and this speed, but I would assume we are safe from them for a while.

Whomp
Aug 26, 2006, 06:01 PM
I was going to ask why we haven't revolted to slavery? This would be the turn to do it since we just finished research. We also have another hut to pop.

We are actually #1 in military but spread thin. I think we can comfortably trust that "The Leader" will not attack once we have an agreement. They've been quite righteous about their treaties in the civ3 MTDG.