This is a training game for low level people. Chieftain-Monarch welcome to join. And now, for the settings:

SG settings:
Turnsets: 20 in Ancient and Middle ages, 10 in Industrial and (if we get there) Modern ages.
Players: Minimum 4, Maximum 6.
EDIT: Forgot to post this earlier:
Got it: 24 hours
Time to Play: 48 hrs. should be enough, but I'll make it 72 if people need the time.

Game settings:
Difficulty Level: Regent
Version: PTW v. 1.27f (would do C3C, but it's not working right now)
Map size: Standard
Opponets: 7 random AI
Barbs: Roaming
Victory Conditions: All on
Everything else will be voted on by the team. I have no opinion, but will vote in case of a tie.

Rules:
No Major Exploits, War, or Mobilization without talking to team, but I'm pretty sure everyone will be talking about war/mobilization for a while before it happens. Oh, and War includes MA's and MPP's. And don't mindlessly build AA wonders. I learned that the hard way.

Roster:
choxorn
cody the genius
jclast
kill fire
Bucephalus
goodsmell

BTW, I will open it up to Regent, then Monarch level players if I can't get any on Cheiftain or Warlord. I won't go above that, though. Man, where are all the Cheiftain and Warlord players? I know there must be some out there.

BTW, I will open it up to Regent, then Monarch level players if I can't get any on Cheiftain or Warlord. I won't go above that, though. Man, where are all the Cheiftain and Warlord players? I know there must be some out there.
Thay are scarce. Once this goes to monarch or regent I might join. But, you will have a very hard time getting chieftain or warlord. ;)

I wish there'd been a game at this level about a year ago. It's very hard to break into playing SG's when a person is just learning, and I was too shy to ask to join a game at Emperor or above. I still play at the lower levels for fun and still enjoy them. :)

I guess Warlord is alright, but you'll probably want to move it up to Regent.

I'm in. :D

One problem is those that may benefit cannot be relied upon to stay the course. They are more likely to post a few time in the forum and then not come back or even see this forum.

I guess Warlord is alright, but you'll probably want to move it up to Regent.

I'm in. :D

Welcome aboard, Cody! And Maybe I will move it up a level or two, as soon as I get proof that this isn't the first Cheiftain SG on this site.

Thay are scarce.
Then where can they usually be found? Maybe I can attract some of them here by posting a link there.

BTW, Regent/Monarch will be open 3 days after I open it to Warlord, which looks pretty soon considering there's two players already. :)

You can find them in the strategy and tips pretty often. Usually you will have a hard time because they come around for like a month or so and just leave. I won't say any names. :mischief:

Okay, I'll go get them.
Just as soon as I finish kicking Bismarck's @$$...
BTW, I have been proven wrong about this being the first-ever Cheiftain SG. There has also been warlord SG's. So if I can't gather enough players in the strategy&tips forum, I'll move this game up a level or two.

If you want someone to be a trainer for this excerise I could be that person.

You can find them in the strategy and tips pretty often. Usually you will have a hard time because they come around for like a month or so and just leave. I won't say any names. :mischief:
Yes, and they often post a "got it", take the save, and then disappear. I once saw an experienced SGer post who said it was like "herding beetles".

@CH: Okay, you can help, but I think you're at too high a difficulty level to play.
@gmaharriet: In that case, I have edited the SG settings so they will be skipped if they don't post a "got it" and play...

You can find them in the strategy and tips pretty often. Usually you will have a hard time because they come around for like a month or so and just leave. I won't say any names. :mischief:

:lol:

If you want someone to be a trainer for this excerise I could be that person.

What does a trainer do? I've never participated in a training game before, just regular ones.

While this seems like a great idea and I wish I had one when I was having trouble getting started, I think Chieftain is an all around bad idea. The difference between Chieftain and Warlord is huge. Since you are there to help and guide them, they should be playing a slightly more difficult game so they have something to learn. At Warlord, they won't be overwhelmed (they are still faster and better than the computer civs), they will have your turns to look at to learn from and you can correct their mistakes on your turn and explain why, and the AI will be resourceful enough to trade with. Chieftain AI is so boring to trade with...they don't have the ability to keep up in techs, so those aren't an option, and they have paltry amounts of gold to offer for your luxuries and techs. Pretty much all you can trade at Chieftain is maps.

I say all this as someone who really wished you did this six months ago. However, I've read the War Academy and skimmed a few threads where experts gave advice to Warlord players, and now I'm at Reagent without having lost a single game (unfortunately my time is such that I can only finish about 1 game a month so that isn't a lot of wins). So I'm still pretty much a novice and think I can make my comments about Chieftain being too easy and have it be a little more meaningful than one of those experts that plays games at Sid level saying the same thing (vmxa ;) you give good advice but hearing you say "that shouldn't be hard" is a little empty).

So I recommend you start a "help the n00bs" SG at Warlord level and invite only players from Chieftain and Warlord. Anyone higher needs to be learning on a Monarch SG to fix their bad habits, not learn the game.

But you haven't been a member for six months. Anyway, You're probably right that Cheiftain is a bad idea. I'll hold a vote and the team can decide whether or not to move it up to Warlord or Regent. But inviting only Cheiftian abd Warlord is a bad idea also: like Conquer dude said, there just aren't enough newb's out there.

What does a trainer do? I've never participated in a training game before, just regular ones.
A training game is where (I think) that it it is, like um... Describe a trainer as a teacher.

What does a trainer do? I've never participated in a training game before, just regular ones.
A trainer is usually experienced at playing at least 2 or 3 levels higher than the trainees...sometimes even more. The trainer may actually participate in playing turnsets or may just give advice from the sidelines. Sometimes more than one experienced player helps train and experienced lurkers often follow the game and give good advice.

In a training game, there is usually lots more discussion between the players about what they want to accomplish, what would work best, why they made certain decisions during their turnset, how it could be improved. In a game at this level, I imagine there would be lots of focus on worker and citizen management, as well as city placement and what to build in each city and why. Probably also discussion of strategy and tactics on both offense and defense.

I was in a training game last September/October at Emperor level, and I'd been playing personal games at Regent for quite awhile. By the time the training ended, I was able to win at Monarch in personal games and my next SG was at DemiGod (which we won :) ). An experienced player can give you lots of helpful tips, ask and answer questions, and give you options you may never have thought of trying.

Wow, People always seem to win SG's. Do they? If not, it might be interesting to read an SG that was lost. Link to one please (If one exists)?

Wow, People always seem to win SG's. Do they? If not, it might be interesting to read an SG that was lost. Link to one please (If one exists)?
Actually, they don't. If you look at the sigs of some of the very best players, they often list all the SG's they've played. They usually win more than they lose, but they'll show quite a few losses as well. I'll look around for a link.

Good. I was beginning to think that SG's were impossible to lose! Or did I... :mischief:

Good. I was beginning to think that SG's were impossible to lose! Or did I... :mischief:
Ok, I'm providing the link to Greebly's current game as a 5CC, not because they're losing, but look carefully at his sig and TheRat's sig. They both list their wins and losses, and they are both able to play at Deity...very good players. They say you learn more from a loss than a win...figure out what went wrong and do better next time. :)

Edit: Oops! :blush: I forgot to add the link. :rolleyes: Here it is... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=164569&page=7

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3979633#post3979633

I think Greebly shows 67 wins and 21 losses or something like that. Just play lots of variants and you will lose.

Okay, now I have proof. But does anyone have a link to one of those SG's that was lost?

I've got two in my sig.

If I get around to it, I'll read them. Right now, it's about time for bed (in my time zone, that is).

Well, it's Apr. 30th, so Warlord is open! ;)

Try advertising it in the SG registry thread.

Advertise what?

This game, silly! :lol:

Oh... Right. :blush:

My attempt at a noob SG died, so I would love to get in on this. I've only played on Chieftain (except for a few turns on Regent in my failed attempt). I can usually win by points, but I've yet to get any other victory type.

Same here, jclast, unless you count my culture victory in 2183 AD and the Mesopotamia conquest, where I built all seven great wonders!! :D
You're in. :)

this is my first SG. so choxorn will you let me join?.:drool:

Welcome aboard, kill fire! :) If no one else joins by May 3rd, I'll give the remaining two open slots to conquer dude and Bucephalus. If you're wondering who Bucephalus is, he's is a guy who PM'ed me a while ago saying he wanted to join when this opened up to Regent/Monarch. I don't know why he didn't just post here, though.

If conquer_dude and Bucephalus still want to play, please say so! BTW guys do you think we should move this game up to Warlord or Regent?

Either difficulty is fine with me.

If conquer_dude and Bucephalus still want to play, please say so! BTW guys do you think we should move this game up to Warlord or Regent?

Sure, count me in; I'm easy regarding the level.

Anything up to Monarch is alright here.

Six months ago I would have signed up in a New York minute. Then I made the decision to jump from Chieftain to Monarch (PTW) and haven't looked back. Of course, I had some good help and SG's, especially SGTOM 9, to get me over the hump.

For now I will lurk and lecture (sometimes).

Warlord vs. Regent
How often do you guys win on Chieftain?
Or is Chieftain eating your lunch every time you play?

(Before I decided to move up I had a win with each VC on Chieftain and played with a few variants, mainly No-Wonders and Late-Culture-Rush. Then it got boring.)

Game Stats
Stick with a Standard world size. Tiny won't teach you enough and Huge will drag out forever.

Don't pick an Industrious civ; they build way too fast for you to learn anything about proper worker-turn management.

Let the game pick your opponents and make sure that Historical start-up is not selected.

You may want to roll about three or four random starts, post them and then decide which is the best one to use.

@Team...A few ideas...



This should absolutely be a regent game. You can do it with help and focus.

You should tell everyone in the game a little more about your personal civ style..these questions were helpful to answer in my first training game.


How would you describe your style of play? Builder? Warmonger?

What do you tend to seek first, military strength, commerce, production, or science?

Do you have preferred civ traits? (This is not intended to start a 'best civ' sub-thread...)

In warfighting, do you prefer to "blitz" or use a "combined arms" approach?

Do you have a favorite Age?


It would be helpful if all of you played the first save for 20 turns and then evaluate everyone's start. You can learn quite a bit by reviewing how each of you played the save.


If you are interested I could be the "trainer of trading"..

Are you interested in having someone do this?

If you want to do this here's how I'd like to do it.
If you are going to make a trade; save the game and then trade. In your turn-report write down very detailed what was traded, how and most importantly why you made that trade. I'd also appreciate it if you send me a PM that there is a save for me to judge.

Here's the decision making process I learned from Bede and Rik Meleet and the questions I'd want answered for every trade.

1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.
--When structuring a trade: Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end for the possibility of a 3 or 4 fer and a profitable trade.
--Do you need it right away or could it wait? Dead end techs are many times not useful.

Let me know if you want to do it this way?

As an example, I'm a builder first, warmonger second.

I don't have a favorite age, but I find the science choices in the Ancient Times a bit confusing, don't know how to rightly judge between them. Try to get to the Middle Ages as quickly as possible.

When I fight I prefer combined arms, unless I get into a hurry, which does happen, and then I wished I had waited.

Welcome aboard, Bucephalus!
@commando: Are you in or not? :confused:
Oh and, warlord vs. regent:
I seem to lose a lot even on Cheiftain, :( but Warlord would be fine.
I'm getting the hang of this game. :)
Gamestats: I had already intended all of those.
@whomp: Good ideas. And answers to your spoilers questions, in this order:
1.Warmonger.
2.All of them.
3.No.
4.What does that mean?
5.No.

I think as a team, and with training, regent is the best approach to improve each of your skills. At regent the AI is at equal strength to start. With a team approach all decisions, MMing, wonder building discussion, trading, war plans etc. will be discussed. I think you should really consider this. Just my penny's worth.

Choxorn to answer your question...
In warfighting, do you prefer to "blitz" or use a "combined arms" approach?Blitzing means you send fast units in for a lightning strike on the enemies cities. The objective would be to put the AI on their heels by hitting them so quickly that 4 or 5 cities would fall in a few turns and make a quick peace. You'd do this typically when they have a wonder, resource or luxury you need.

Combined arms would be for longer campaigns where you intend to cripple the enemy. You would bring both defensive slow units, offensive fast units, artillery and skirmishing fast units. Does this make sense?


What do you think of my other ideas?
Each player playing the same save for the first 20 turns and then taking the best save out of each of your attempts? This will spur quite a bit of learning for the team.

Trading examinator? Do you want me to do this?

Okay then my preferred strategy is combined arms. And as for Warlord/Regent, that will depend on what the team says. I'll take the votes of any player who cares.

My vote is: WARLORD! WARLORD! WARLORD! WARLORD! WARLORD! WARLORD! WARLORD! :ar15:

okay, I get it. Sheesh. :nospam:

I think as a team, and with training, regent is the best approach to improve each of your skills. At regent the AI is at equal strength to start. With a team approach all decisions, MMing, wonder building discussion, trading, war plans etc. will be discussed. I think you should really consider this. Just my penny's worth.
I think Whomp is right about playing this at Regent if you really want to learn to play better. The object of a training game is not to show how well you can play at your current level, but to learn to overcome new challenges with the help of trainers. You learn from your own and each other's mistakes, with the trainers explaining how it could be improved. Most people who go through a complete training game find that they can play at least one level higher on their own afterwards.

@commando: Are you in or not? :confused:

No, I was just trying to get the discussion ball rolling.

Gamestats: I had already intended all of those.
My bad; should have checked first.

@Whomp&harriet: I know, Regent would probably be better, but I won't do Regent unless a few of the team says they're sure they want it.

@Whomp&harriet: I know, Regent would probably be better, but I won't do Regent unless a few of the team says they're sure they want it.

Choxorn: 'Conquer Dude' and myself are comfortable at Regent /Monarch so we wouldn't be flying blind; and there are plenty of others to offer advice should we want it. So I say, let's do Regent. Maybe as a compromise we could go without 'barbs'?

Okay, regent it is. Oh, and conquer dude hasn't told me whether or not he still wants to play. I'll give him until tonight, then close the roster. Oh, and I've edited my first post a little. And though it looks like I've changed the rules, I really haven't- just reworded them.

Regent is fine with me.

As for the questions (that I remember):

1.I'm a builder. War is not my thing. I tend to wait until somebody declares on me, and then capture one city and sue for peace. This is probably why I only win by points most of the time.
2. Science. I loves me some research.
3. Nope.
4. Blitz
5. Ancient, I dig the exploring.

Hey, I'm kind of an active lurker but I'd be interested in hearing your stories. A little about your experience with Civ3. What level do you play at, where is your trouble spot you'd most like to improve, how often do you win by victory condition? by points? not at all? I'm not trying to probe too deeply, I just want an impression of what skill level the players are so I know what to look for and so I don't delurk with a comment that an experienced player might be offended by ("Do you think I'd forget something as basic as that??").

I'll volunteer that I'm at Regent and my weak spots are in ancient age management and organized war. I tend to not commit totally. I have (so far) won every game with a victory condition (pretty much all of them).

Alex asks some good questions. Alex I think you should join the game as well. You could add a lot to this game and raise your game at the same time.

@Team this is your game so you can take as much as or little from it as you wish.
There are a few other things I think you should discuss...
Do you prefer a training game or simply playing it without help?
Would you like the best training civ or would you prefer to choose your civ to acheive this victory?
What victory condition would you like to acheive?

Space is always interesting because it takes you through all of the ages and offers the most training.

1.I'm a builder. War is not my thing. I tend to wait until somebody declares on me, and then capture one city and sue for peace. This is probably why I only win by points most of the time.There's nothing wrong with being a builder however there's being a focused builder, as well as being a focused warmonger, and there's being a builder who simply builds everything. As a builder, would you like to learn how to avoid letting the AI dictate the outcome?

What level do you play at, where is your trouble spot you'd most like to improve, how often do you win by victory condition? by points? not at all?


My trouble spot: Pretty much everywhere. :(
Win: Usually I lose :( :( Yes, even cheiftain pwns me.

My trouble spot: Pretty much everywhere. :(
Win: Usually I lose :( :( Yes, even cheiftain pwns me.

Don't worry about it... we'll be able to help you. gmaharriet and Whomp are two of the best SG players I've seen at CFC.

Alex asks some good questions. Alex I think you should join the game as well. You could add a lot to this game and raise your game at the same time.

@Team this is your game so you can take as much as or little from it as you wish.
There are a few other things I think you should discuss...
Do you prefer a training game or simply playing it without help?
Would you like the best training civ or would you prefer to choose your civ to acheive this victory?
What victory condition would you like to acheive?

Space is always interesting because it takes you through all of the ages and offers the most training.

There's nothing wrong with being a builder however there's being a focused builder, as well as being a focused warmonger, and there's being a builder who simply builds everything. As a builder, would you like to learn how to avoid letting the AI dictate the outcome?

I would very much like to figure out how I can be in control of the game. The reason that I try to stay out of wars is that I'm always afraid that even if I win, I'll overextend myself and then some other AI will come and roll over all my cities.

Also, I'd be up either for just a regular game or a training game. Goodness knows I could use the help. :)

The reason that I try to stay out of wars is that I'm always afraid that even if I win, I'll overextend myself and then some other AI will come and roll over all my cities.


My policy when preparing for the war is that you can never have enough offence. If you think you can win a war with 20 swords then why not make sure of it and build 30? That why you prepare for unexpectedly strong opposition and poor RNG rolls. Also when at war keep building new units to replace the fallen and always back up your offensive units with the best artillery units can build, be they cats or radar artillery. Remember, artillery units can always be upgraded.

And don't be worried too much about the AI, if you're afraid of the AI you'll never 'dare to win' as the phrase goes. Always remember that the AI, even at deity level is still a pre-programmed (although quite well programmed really) machine that cannot adapt or take proper advantage of a situation. With a human brain you should never fear the AI, they really quite stupid.

Alex asks some good questions. Alex I think you should join the game as well. You could add a lot to this game and raise your game at the same time.
Thank you for the invitation, but my unique preferences keep me from getting involved. I only own vanilla Civ3 (no PTW or C3C) and I don't install the patches because they kept changing the way the rules of the game worked and I really liked it when it came out. Plus time is a serious problem for me. I finish one game a month because I get to play so little.

I'll just watch from the sidelines and try to help as best I can.

Okay, I think everybody that would join has joined here or will join D'artagnan's game. I think I'll close the roster now- we have enough players. :) And enough senior lurkers! :D

Did you started your SG ? I'll be happy to join
btw , Regent is like the minimum level to start improving your skill , because Chieftan is waste of your own time , the AI does'nt act even a lil' similar on other levels and if you would like to play on Deity soon , don't play Chieftan anymore ;)

Sure, why not goodsmell? We can use one more player. You're in. And the game hasn't started yet. We haven't even picked what civ we want to be, or the Land Mass, Water Coverage, Climate, Tempurature, or Geology.

What's your roster so far Choxorn?
Do you all want the best training civ or choose a civ based on your goal?
What victory do you guys want to acheive? Domination, Space, diplo, culture?

I forgot to tell you that my English is'nt that good , it'll be a lil' prob :))

Anyway I've an offer :
Continents 70% water , wet , normal , 4billions .
We can choose the Ottomans, Never tried to play as Ottomans maybe it'll be a challenge.
I guess we can run for Conquest victory .

choxom , don't you think to open a new thread when we'll start the SG ?

"Do you all want the best training civ or choose a civ based on your goal?" I suggest you do the opposite. Figure out your goal and chose a civ with no useful traits for that goal. If you play the best civ for the task, will you really learn how to win, or will you get dependant on having the attribute that helps (like being Babylonian for a cultural victory)?

Remember, you learn from winning and you learn from losing, but you learn different things.

Here's my vote for stuff:
Continents map, normal size, at least 70% water, temperate climate, temperate temperature, anything except for no barbs, random age, random civ., and random opponents.

Also, I'd leave all victory conditions enabled regardless of what condition we decide to go for. If we're taking votes for that already, I'd like to see a spaceship victory.

EDIT: I don't know what civs are poorly qualified for an SS victory, but I wouldn't mind playing at a disadvantage.

The best training civ is the Americans. They have many disadvantages. Can you guys tell me why?

choxom , maybe it sounds funny and foolish from my side
but I won't know if I won't ask , what MA and MPP means ?

choxom , maybe it sounds funny and foolish from my side
but I won't know if I won't ask , what MA and MPP means ?

MA = Military Alliance
MPP = Mutual Protection Pact

The best training civ is the Americans. They have many disadvantages. Can you guys tell me why?

All I can think of is the late UU makes early warfare difficult, but I'm sure there's something else, too.

Also, prehistoric Lincoln always makes me laugh.

Late UU is one of the reasons since you can't use a golden age as a crutch. Any others you guys can think of?

The best training civ is the Americans. They have many disadvantages. Can you guys tell me why?
Poor trait combination, and next-to useless U/U.

Poor trait combination, and next-to useless U/U.
Yep that too so they don't give you advantages there either. The last I'll mention is there are no cheap buildings so you can't use that as a crutch either. Worker tasks will be to your benefit so you'll need to make sure these are effective worker moves.

Late UU is one of the reasons since you can't use a golden age as a crutch.

Is that completely true? I was thinking that there is maybe a wonder combination that would trigger one; and I think that this would be a legitimate tactic to pursue from the point of view of training, co-ordinating the building of two specific wonders would be difficult.

Is that completely true? I was thinking that there is maybe a wonder combination that would trigger one; and I think that this would be a legitimate tactic to pursue from the point of view of training, co-ordinating the building of two specific wonders would be difficult.
I think that's another crutch however what I'd like to see is an expansionist wonder combined with ToE and Hoover's. Have Hoover's launch you into your GA.

Which expansionist wonder will be the most valuable for a space win?

Remember that in some games a wonder trigger is not in the cards till around Hoovers. Sid level and some AW games at say AWE or AWDG. You just won't be building wonders.

So no real good way to trigger a GA for nearly three ages, can be rough. They have one trait I like a lot, but EXP is not it.

Well choxorn I guess we can start as soon as you decide the details ..
I like jclast's vote about civilization choice , we can random it , but I hope we won't get "Modern" civ , but anyway we can try ;)

I think that's another crutch however what I'd like to see is an expansionist wonder combined with ToE and Hoover's. Have Hoover's launch you into your GA.

Which expansionist wonder will be the most valuable for a space win?

Wouldn't it be a waste of time to build them at all? A GA could be triggered anytime after flight with the U/U. I was speculating on getting one at an earlier time with the wonders.

What's your roster so far Choxorn?
Do you all want the best training civ or choose a civ based on your goal?
What victory do you guys want to acheive? Domination, Space, diplo, culture?
Roster so far:
choxorn
cody the genius
jclast
kill fire
Bucephalus
goodsmell

AS for VC,
I don't really care. We can just can just try to acheive any condition we think we have a chance to do- as long as it's not histograph victory. Oh, and votes (Jclast's geo and water coverage votes I have made 70% and 4bil):

Landform:
Pang:0
Cont:2
Archi:0

Water:
60%:0
70%:2
80%:0

Climate:
Arid:0
Temp:1
Wet:1

Tempurature:
Warm:0
Temp:2
Cold:0

Geology:
3bil:0
4bil:2
5bil:0

Civ:
Random:1
Ottomans:1

Choxorn, I guess the whole roster inactive .
Ask them to post a votes , else our SG won't procceed or you've to start by votes for now , in case of civ I think you should decide ( I think random is good ) , and hmmm you've to decide about the Climate too . I guess you can vote for Temp cuz it's like "Average" but I prefer wet anyway.

Let's rock !

Yeah, kill fire, Buce, and cody need to vote soon.

OK let's get this ball rolling folks. What would be the most useful is each of you take the opening save and play 20 turns. We can gain great knowledge by comparing results.
Wouldn't it be a waste of time to build them at all? A GA could be triggered anytime after flight with the U/U. I was speculating on getting one at an earlier time with the wonders.
Think about how significant it would be to launch your GA for a space or domination victory when Hoover's comes in. All of the important builds would be in place (markets, libs, unis) and would be a launching pad for your victory condition. This will take some pre-build planning to accomplish so it will be very useful in the training process.

OT choxorn are you taking Sima's game or am I?

My preferences are: Standard World, Warm, Wet, and 5,000,000,000. No Barbs.
I would like to see us go for a Space Victory; my wins are always by conquest/domination. I think UN option enabled runs the risk of a really interesting game ending prematurely, and personally always disable it.

My choice would be for us to accept offers of help in making this a training game. Oh yeah, and let's choose a 'handicapped' civ; with random opponents.

All that said, this is Choxorn's gig, and I'll happily defer to what he decides.

I would like defer to what he decides too :) , let's give him the pleasure to challenge the roster by his decisions ? or let's go for Whomp's idea ? each one will start 20turns with different preferences and we'll compare ( let choxorn decide will be much faster )

btw I forgot a detail , how many Rivals do we want ?

- Standard
- Sedentary or Roaming barbs, doesn't matter to me
- Temperate
- Normal
- 5 billion
- Random is okay, I guess, but Carthage or Ottomans would be really cool.

If it's a standard map I'd use the default number of random civs. If you go with an expansionist civ without barbs you'll add another handicap. :mischief:

I would like to see you guys all play the same initial save since it will be a great learning tool. The first 20 turns are so critical in the end game and will be very useful in the learning process.

Well I got started , randomly got Carthage .. I'ma lil tired maybe it's not that good start , anyway:


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4714/startpoint4nu.jpg
1. 4000BC - Settler near a Caost , and builds "Carthage" starts Warrior.
We've a Game and river, worker sent 1W

2. 3950BC - raise science 100% +0gpt ( we lose nothing ) reaserching Bronze Working

3. 3900BC - nothing

4. 3850BC - worker finishes a road and goes to Irrigate

5. 3800BC - Carthage-Warrior->Warrior .. I sent Warrior explore SE

6. 3750BC - nothing

7. 3700BC - nothing special

8. 3650BC - I finish my ciggaret

9. 3600BC - Carthage Warrior->Settler . Warrior sent North

10. 3550BC - nothing

11. 3500BC - We're cultural expanding, I can see 3wines northen near Tundra and I guess near a Coast which looks like a good spot

12. 3450BC - there are Hills and Furs east .

13. 3400BC - zzzz

14. 3350BC - 1turn for Bronze working ;)

15. 3300BC - Bronze working--> Warrior Code ( we need some attacking millitary ) for 11turns

16. 3250BC - zzzz

17. 3200BC - zzz...

18. 3150BC - zzzz..

19. 3100BC - nothing

20. 3050BC - Sugar again near Coast hill on plains, But I can see grassland next..


Notes* I think Carthage is now need a Barracks, and don't forget our advantage with our Numidian Mercenary which good both for defense and offense
I hope you decide the Spots for settle, I'm afraid to wrong with that .

Here what is all about :
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3150/3050bc6ok.jpg

Yes! Carthage!

Man, it's like herding cats with you guys. :mischief:

Are you going to each play your own save or this save?

Specifically, I'd like you to discuss goodsmell's worker moves, research choice, his build choice, can we can disseminate from the minimap and how we can find out about the other civs in the game. Would anyone like to comment on goodsmell's turns?

If this is a training game, playing comparative starts from the 4kBC save can be really useful...

@goodsmell: Thanks for posting screenies. :)

I think we have to do comparitive starts now. Goodsmell, what were your settings? I think we should all use the same settings. As for civ, we can do random. This is going to get interesting.

Choxorn when Scout says comparative starts it means everyone plays the same save that goodsmell played. There's a lot to learn from playing that way to see different opening styles, builds, research etc.

It's either that or play your own save and we'll evaluate that way. I prefer everyone play the save opening save and compare. Your call(s).

I thought I was in this? :confused:

@conquer: You said you might join. And you didn't. Anyway, we have a full roster now, so it's too late to join.
@Whomp: We can do that if scoutsout goodsmell still has the 4000 BC save.

I thought I said I'd join. :hmm:

Whatever then.

@Whomp: We can do that if scoutsout still has the 4000 BC save.
:confused: I think you mean the original 4000 BC save from goodsmell.

What is occuring here? Last time I looked we were still discussing settings, now 'goodsmell' appears to have unilaterally started a game.

Choxorn: This is your gig, I think you need to execise your authority by making a few decisions; and the first one should be whether to continue in this haphazard fashion or allow (the incredibly patient) 'Whomp' to advise and organise. I suggest the latter.

Do you guys want me to upload the save of 4000BC ? I guess we can with continiue that cuz we got Carthage by Random, and we've good spot to settle , Coast , Game , and 3wines north to our Capital .. If my 20turns are too newbie I can upload the start with no problems , but let's just play that save !

about my turns , I started with researching Bronze Working since we can build Numidian, he has 2attack3defense .. maybe I got mistake I kept with Warrior code when we already have an attacker and defense in one unit , it means we won't spent productions on Archers and Spearman , Just build an army of Numidian and conquer the first we meet :)

btw , I need to know if the SAVE works ..
Cuz I just installed GraphicMod, Instead of placing him in Scenario's folder I placed him in the Art folder .

I'll leave this up to you guys but I have quite a few suggestions on goodsmell's opening play. I think it would be useful for all of you to play the Carthaginian 4000 opening save that goodsmell played so we can evaluate each of your starts off that save.

The alternative is to each play your own save for 20 turns and we can evaluate each of those.

I thought I said I'd join. :hmm:

Whatever then.
No, you said you might join:
Thay are scarce. Once this goes to monarch or regent I might join. But, you will have a very hard time getting chieftain or warlord.
Hope that discussion wasn't already over.
I think you mean the original 4000 BC save from goodsmell.
Doh! That's what I meant. I have edited my post.
What is occuring here? Last time I looked we were still discussing settings, now 'goodsmell' appears to have unilaterally started a game.

Choxorn: This is your gig, I think you need to execise your authority by making a few decisions; and the first one should be whether to continue in this haphazard fashion or allow (the incredibly patient) 'Whomp' to advise and organise. I suggest the latter.
I also suggest we let Whomp organize and we tell goodsmell not do this again.

OK here's the plan and my rules.

Let's work with goodsmell's 4000 BC save with Carthaginians. Everyone play his 4000 BC within 48 hours and post your log (detailed) here. We will review all of the opening plays after they are posted and discuss them. We will take the best opening play based on our discussions.

The Carths traits give you couple of cheap building crutches. Cheap barracks, temple and cathedrals. Barracks I'm ok with in core cities however I don't want to see any temples or cathedrals built early. We are not going for a culture win. We are going for a space shot and we want to spend our hard earned money on developing a highly scientific powerful economic civ.
Space will allow us to train all the way through the ages. The best kind of training.

As an old civ3 sage once said "Growth is power". That being the case, all victory conditions require land acquisition. To gain land we will need to do some fighting.

We will also need to be crafty traders.
If you are going to make a trade; save the game and then make the trade. In your turn-report write down very detailed what was traded, how and most importantly why you made that trade. I'd also appreciate it if you send me a PM that there is a save for me to judge.
[/LIST]
Here's the decision making process I learned from Bede and Rik Meleet and the questions I'd want answered for every trade.

1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.
--When structuring a trade: Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end for the possibility of a 3 or 4 fer and a profitable trade.
--Do you need it right away or could it wait? Dead end techs are many times not useful.

So off we go. goodsmell please post your 4000 BC save and each of you play that save within 48 hours.

OK here's the plan and my rules.

Let's work with goodsmell's 4000 BC save with Carthaginians. Everyone play his 4000 BC within 48 hours and post your log (detailed) here. We will review all of the opening plays after they are posted and discuss them. We will take the best opening play based on our discussions.

The Carths traits give you couple of cheap building crutches. Cheap barracks, temple and cathedrals. Barracks I'm ok with in core cities however I don't want to see any temples or cathedrals built early. We are not going for a culture win. We are going for a space shot and we want to spend our hard earned money on developing a highly scientific powerful economic civ.
Space will allow us to train all the way through the ages. The best kind of training.

As an old civ3 sage once said "Growth is power". That being the case, all victory conditions require land acquisition. To gain land we will need to do some fighting.

We will also need to be crafty traders.
If you are going to make a trade; save the game and then make the trade. In your turn-report write down very detailed what was traded, how and most importantly why you made that trade. I'd also appreciate it if you send me a PM that there is a save for me to judge.
[/LIST]
Here's the decision making process I learned from Bede and Rik Meleet and the questions I'd want answered for every trade.

1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.
--When structuring a trade: Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end for the possibility of a 3 or 4 fer and a profitable trade.
--Do you need it right away or could it wait? Dead end techs are many times not useful.

So off we go. goodsmell please post your 4000 BC save and each of you play that save within 48 hours.

Cheap temples/cathedrals? I thought Carthage was Commercial & Industrious in PTW?

I also suggest we let Whomp organize and we tell goodsmell not do this again.

No problem with that , I just thought nobody's active and wanted to start already .It won't happen again ;)

Guys I told you just to try if the SAVE of 3050BC works , I afraid my SAVES won't work since I've installed GraphicMod not Correctly. and I

anyway here's my SAVE , if it won't work I guess we'll just need to create a new one .

May I comment on goodsmell's starting moves? I'm trying to open up discussion. I don't know everything, but I think there are a number of things to comment on, and everyone else playing this scenario should play their 20 turns and then think about how their turns compare with goodsmell's.

And choxorn, this is your game and your thread. You should make the decisions. Too much democracy = indecision = failure. Listen to Whomp, but you should make the final calls.


Location:
Starting with a look at the opening screen shot. That is a good place for a capital. Every square in your initial border has a bonus and the river will let you grow without an aqueduct. But there is a problem: no potential food bonus. This will make producing settlers slower. Settlers = expansion and early expansion decides whether you win or lose. So you should plant your capital here, but your first priority needs to be finding a high food producing area (cows, wheat, floodplains) and getting your next settler there ASAP!

Worker Usage:
First action is to go west and road then irrigate. A road west of town crosses a river, so you lose the movement advantage of the road. A road on the bonus grassland south would not cross a river. Irrigation is a wasted action. When you irrigate grassland, it goes from 2 food --> 3 food. Because you are in Despotism, any production of 3 is lowered by 1, so your irrigated grassland produces 2 food...no change. Build mine instead. Irrigated/roaded grassland to west = 2/0/1. Mined/roaded bonus grassland to south = 2/2/1. With much higher production and not enough food for a settler factory, pop out 3 warriors and find a spot for a settler factory ASAP.

Science:
100% research in 1st turn. Great move! Getting only military technologies, but we don't know anybody and are not aiming for a conquest victory. Bad move. Remember, capital is not getting enough food to be a settler factory but we have high shield production due to mined bonus grassland. Get pottery and build a granary ASAP to make up for not having cows/wheat/floodplains. Then your settlers will come twice as often. We need to expand fast! After pottery we might want bronze working, but since we are going for space race and need high research keep the path to libraries in mind.

End Notes:
Ending with a look at the closing screen shot. Still haven't met anybody but goodsmell wants to build a barracks. Is there any reason to do that right now and pay the upkeep on it every turn? Are we going to be building a lot more military units right away? He's uncovered a good amount of land to the east but to the west there is black. We can see only 2 spaces away. There might be cows we could settle, but we don't know. There could be an evil empire about to stomp us be we never looked. Gotta get warriors exploring in BOTH directions! Connected wines to capital...but it is outside our borders. The worker wasted another 3 turns he should have spent improving area under our control. Once we have improved 4 squares inside our borders, he should start roading towards our next city site so the settler gets there faster. When wines come into our city radius we can build a road on them. The furs are too far away to worry about for now. If we get out there, connect them, otherwise don't even think about wasting a worker to go get them.

I can't remember PTW, but they are Ind and Seafaring in C3C.

@Bucephalus you are correct. In Play the World, the Carthaginians are considered an Industrious and Commercial civilization, therefore, they start with Alphabet and Masonry.

goodsmell do you have the 4000 BC save? If not it may have the 3950 BC save in your "auto save" file. If you save over that one we could use that.

Guys I guess I'll reinstall my Civilization soon , 4000BC SAVE takes more than 1MB I don't know why . I can rar it but it won't work anyway without having GraphicMod as I have . It will be more easlier and faster if you Whomp will get a 4000BC SAVE .

What do you think ?

edited : Whomp forget it mate , I was'nt concentrated when I started it and forgot we're running a PTW version and played a C3C . and the result is that I should'nt play anymore at NIGHT when my eyes half closed , lol .

:lol: OK no problems goodsmell. Let's start over. I think Carths are a good training civ for space and most of you like them.

It seems a consensus is for...
Continents map
60% water (more land and less chance of islands)
sedentary or roaming barbs
wet
5 billion (more rivers)
temperate

Can someone generate a few PTW 4000 BC starts to discuss or I can later.

Why won't you do it brother ? that will be more perfect without any problems like I'd :)
generate some start , that seems enough good for you ..

OK I think we've herded all of Choxorn's Cool Cats together so here we go.
This game is as Carthaginians on regent.
Continents
60% water
wet
Temperate
5 billion years
roaming barbs
All victory conditions are enabled
AI respawn is turned off
Culturally linked locations are turned off
Remember your trading reputation is everything so make sure to be very careful with it. If you make a deal follow it all the way through.


http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2550/openingsave7yu.jpg

The Cool Cats SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Cool_cats,_4000_BC.SAV)

Have at it cool cats. Report back with detail within 48 hours.

I can see jungle :( , I can see wheat :) and river , is it a coast south ?

I'll play my 20turns , I just have to patch again my civersions

Guys I guess I'll reinstall my Civilization soon , 4000BC SAVE takes more than 1MB I don't know why . I can rar it but it won't work anyway without having GraphicMod as I have . It will be more easlier and faster if you Whomp will get a 4000BC SAVE .

What do you think ?

edited : Whomp forget it mate , I was'nt concentrated when I started it and forgot we're running a PTW version and played a C3C . and the result is that I should'nt play anymore at NIGHT when my eyes half closed , lol .

Normally even a huge map should be less than 500mb so early in the game. Autosaves are much larger than manual saves. You should always post manual saves.

Well, I can say nothing besides tell you again I'was playing at night with half closed eyes :))))

1) OK. Not too bad, I think. River, wheat, 3 BG and (it looks like) 2 floodplains. Not keen to be on the edge of a jungle but to move away is to move away from the river. I move the worker to the BG by the river. Confirm at least one floodplain but see nothing to cause me to move. I found Carthage without moving. I place citizen to work the BG by the river. The wheat tempted me briefly but I'm going with the extra gold and a shield.
Warrior to be built in 5. Science at 100% gives me pottery in 12; I plan to build an early granary.

2 -3) Worker builds road.

4) Worker completes road; begins to mine same tile.

5) Worker mines.

6) Warrior is completed, and moves 2 tiles NW to the floodplain. Another floodplain confirmed. I'm thinking that some kind of settler factory is possible.
I set Carthage to build barracks as a pre-build for the granary. Pottery due in 5.

7) Worker completes mine and is moved to the forest NW. Warrior moves on to the mountain.

8) Worker begins to chop forest; Will complete in 5. Warrior moves to plains NW of furs. I'm keeping the warrior moving in a circular path for now, I'm a little concerned about barbs, and don't want to stray too far from Carthage. I stick to the mountains where I can for maximum vision.

9-10) Warrior continues to explore.

11) We learn pottery. I switch research to Writing. Realise it's been a long time since I played 'PTW', I'm wearing my 'Conquests' head; there is no slingshot to Republic. Decide to stick with Writing anyway as there are no immediate threats requiring military solutions. We can trade for the lower tier stuff later. Carthage gains a new citizen; he is placed to work a BG. Switch build from barracks to granary (due in 11).

12) Warrior explores east.

13) Forest chop completed. Granary now due in 7.

14-15) Warrior continues to explore. Still no barbs or civs. Worker moves to wheat.

16) Worker begins to road wheat.

17) Warrior explores.

18) Worker completes road; begins to irrigate.

19) Warrior explores.

20) Worker completes irrigation; moves to undeveloped BG. Growth in 2, Granary in 1, Writing in 31.

This spoiler is for Bucephalus' eyes only.
I like your turnset. Very solid. I would have done much of the same thing. Worked the commerce tiles (fast pace for space!), chopped (any loss of shields?)and pre-built for a gran...absolutely beautiful. The only thing I may have considered differently is getting the wheat up and running. I would've probably moved the warrior in a straighline NW since another warrior would likely be built before a settler. Nice turnset!:thumbsup:
Maybe add your gold and gpt so others can see.

Screenie pleaz?

I would hold off on screenies for "spoilerish" sake until everyone has their turns played.

Could we have a roster please? When am I up? :)

Here's mine. Don't look at it if you haven't played. (I took it a turn or two past 20). @Whomp: Here's my log: Pre-flight check: Mapstat goes nuts with info from a very old game in the autosave directory. Looks like I was Arabia in that one... down ... nevermind.

Turn 1/4000 BC - Since I'm not much of one for fog-gazing and exploring with workers, I found carthage on the spot. Set research to pottery at 90%. Due in 16 after I MM Carthage to work the Wheat. I sure would have liked to have that cow.

Turn 2/3950 BC - Worker Irrigates wheat.

Turn 3/3900 - Pottery due in 14.

Turn 4/3850 - worker has finished irrigating, starts roading wheat. Carthage grows in 3.

Turn 3/3800 - Pottery due in 12.

Turn 4/3750 - I had forgotten how powerful the industrious trait was in Vanilla/PTW. The worker has finished roading, Pottery now due in 8. MM the citizen to the riverside bonus grassland. This avoids a food overrun (city still grows next turn) and gets us another shield for the warrior. Worker moves to riverside BG.

Turn 5/3700 - Worker starts mining the riverside BG.

Turn 6/3650 - nada. Pottery due in 5.

Turn 7/3600 - Carthage has trained a warrior. Queue up a Barracks as a Granary pre-build. Warrior scouts nortward.

Turn 8/3550 - Warrior scouts north, spots furs. Worker starts roading mined BG.

Turn 9/3500 - borders expand. Research down to 70%, Pottery in 2.

Turn 10/3450 - Carthage is now size 3. Research to 60%, Lux to 10%. MM the city so that the third citizen works a BG instead of a forest. Worker to forest. Scouting warrior north... sees a vast expanse of jungle.

Turn 11/3400 - Pottery is in, queue up Writing at 10%. Swap Carthage's build to Granary. Warrior north. Spots a goody hut on a mountain.

Turn 12/3350 - Warrior heads for goody hut.

Turn 13/3300 - Warrior pops hut, gets a map.

Turn 14/3250 - I forgot to log this one...

Turn 15/3200 - bump lux to 30%. MM the city to get the citizen off the forest.

Turn 16/3150 - Worker has finished the chop, roads the grass.

Turn 17/3100 - warrior continues scouting.

Turn 18/3050 - worker moves to floodplain, and the stupid game crashes.

Turn 19/3000 - Carthage finishes its granary, queue up a worker. Worker irrigates floodplain (that's where your 5th food will come from team).

Turn 20/2950 - warrior keeps scouting.

At 2900 BC, Carthage is size 4 with a warrior due in 2. I have 2 workers, and the city is capable of producing 5 food per turn. When the warrior is trained, the 5th citizen will be working an irrigated floodplain tile... and you'll have your 5 surplus food per turn needed for the settler pump.

Here's my turnset.

Turn 1 - 4000 B.C. I look around and notice that if I settle in place I've got wheat and a river. I send the worker south to check for coast. It's definitely coast, and no spot I can see looks better than where we started, so I settle on the spot. Upon founding I see a cow just outside Carthage's bordersand a whole bunch of jungle to the north. Set Carthage to build a warrior for exploration. Set research to 100% with +0 GPT. Bronze Working due in 18. Turn 2 Move worker to wheat and start a road Turn 3 Worker continues to build road. Turn 4 Worker completes road. Set worker to mine wheat since irrigation bonus would be nullified by Despotism. Turn 5 Carthage completes warrior. Send him to explore the west. Set Carthage to build another warrior. Turn 6 Warrior moves onto a mountain a spies some furs to the northeast of Carthage. They're too far outside of our borders to worry about now, but eventually we should get them. After all, everybody loves a luxury! Turn 7 Worker complete mine netting us 1 extra SPT. Set worker to road to the west because I'd prefer to settle our second city outside the jungle. Despite my noobish tendancies, I am certain to not road over the river and negate the movement bonus. Warrior continues to explore west and sees nothing new since he descended from the mountain. Turn 8 Worker begins road. Warrior explores west,and sees what I assume to be another coast. Turn 9 Worker continues to build road. Warrior explores north. Turn 10 - 3500 B.C. Carthage's borders expand, there is a second fur source two tiles northeast of the first. We should definitely pick both up (one to keep and one to trade one we meet our neighbors). Carthage completes warrior. Set Carthage to build a final warrior (I'm not sure, but I think this one will serve as a garrison in case any neighbors come knocking). Warrior 1 explores north; he's definitely on a coast (either that or we've got one HUGE lake). Warrior 2 explores northeast. Worker completes road, and moves west. Turn 11 Warrior 1 explores east. Warrior 2 explores northeast. Worker begins road. Turn 12 Warrior 1 explores north. Warrior 2 explores northeast. Turn 13 Warrior 1 explores north and finds a goody hut and some silks. He'll pop the hut in 2 turns. Warrior 2 explores northeast. Set worker to road to a second city site near the silks. It's got silk, 2 mountains for mining, and some jungles for chopping, and it will be coastal for a harbor later. I want to build a granary, but it won't be available until Pottery comes in. There's 4 turns left on BW, and Pottery will take 10. Unfortunately, a barracks (my pre-build) will also take 14, so I set Carthage to wealth for a turn. Carthage completes warrior, and I set him as a garrison. Warrior 1 goes northeast toward goody hut. Warrior 2 explores north and finds a source of gold and two sources of silks. Turn 14 Set Carthage to barracks as a pre-build for granary. Warrior 1 pops the goody hut and finds maps revealing lots of jungle and yet another source of silks. Turn 15 I'm reassigning Warrior 1 to explore the south. The north seems to be full of nothing but jungle. Warrior 2 explores north, and finds the northern coast. Turn 16 Warrior 2 explores northwest. Turn 17 Bronze Working comes in, set research to Pottery. I must have missed a turn somewhere since BW took 18 turns and I started on the first turn. Pottery will come in in 8 turns. (What has changed, just a couple turns ago it was going to take 10!) Turn 19 Warrior 2 explores northwest. What the hell? Now the barracks will be done in 5, but Pottery won't come in for 7 turns. I switch to a settler for our second city. Apparently I don't understand pre-building. Turn 20 - 3000 B.C. Warrior 1 arrives on a southern mountain and sees both game and cattle to our southwest and south respectively. As I leave it, we still have only one cith, Carthage. It is building a settler, while will be done in 2 turns, and I've started roading to a second city site. Also, since Bronze Working came in, we shouldn't ever build warriors again as we have access to Numidian Mercs.

The world as I have left it:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e216/jclast/civ3carthage.jpg

And the save:
jclast's attempt (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Hannibal_of_the_Carthaginians,_3000_BC.SAV)

@ Cody play the first save for 20 turns. We'll evaluate everyone's opening turns and take the best save and build the roster from there.


Bucephalus and jclast can look at each others spoilers as well as Scoutout's.
Spoiler for jclast.
A few things....BW isn't really necessary yet. It's useful but it could be traded is my guess since the AI likes to have BW. This is the expansion phase. Remember growth is power and we are not looking for any wars soon. We need cities not wars. NuMercs will be more useful later and hopefully after we're much bigger and in a republic. A republic GA is much more powerful than a despotic GA. We'd hate to have one triggered too early.
Turn 4
Worker completes road.
Set worker to mine wheat since irrigation bonus would be nullified by Despotism. You can irrigate bonus resources like wheat in despotism.

Bronze Working comes in, set research to Pottery. I must have missed a turn somewhere since BW took 18 turns and I started on the first turn. Pottery will come in in 8 turns. (What has changed, just a couple turns ago it was going to take 10!)What the hell? Now the barracks will be done in 5, but Pottery won't come in for 7 turns. I switch to a settler for our second city. Apparently I don't understand pre-building.Gold is the reason. The more citizens you have means more gold. More gold means more science. In fact, if you'd roaded the riverside bonus grasslands they would have produce even more gold. By roading outside of the capital we also lose the capability to have citizens work developed tiles which generate gold and science. Always develop around the capital since there's new citizens coming online that should be working those developed tiles. Especially ones on rivers since they'll give us higher commerce and science. Settlers will get to their destination when it's time. Instead there's only one tile developed for the 3 citizens. All 3 should be working a developed tile.

Here's my set:

Turn 1(4000 BC):
-Send worker 1 south onto BG- uncovers coastline. hm. Tempting, but I decide to put another city on the coast and found Carthage on the spot. Set it to build Warrior.

IBT:
-Start research: Pottery at 80%
-Notice Cow tile outside our borders. Nice.

Turn 2(3950 BC):
-Worker builds road. Although this isn't the tile the Cathagininan citizen is working, he's on it anyway.

IBT:
zzz

Turn 3(3900 BC)
zzz

IBT:
zzz

Turn 4(3850 BC):
-Worker finishes road. Send him to BG tile that's being worked, 1NW of Carthage.

IBT:
zzz

Turn 5(3800 BC):
worker starts road

IBT:
Carthage: Warrior->Warrior

Turn 6(3750 BC):
-Warrior starts exploring

IBT:
zzz

Turn 7(3700 BC):
-Send Worker to Wheat 1SW of Carthage to build road.
-Warrior gets a view from a mountain and sees a fur.

IBT:
zzz

Turn 8(3650 BC):
-Worker builds road and Warrior explores.

IBT:
zzz

Turn 9(3600 BC):
zzz

IBT:
zzz

Turn 10(3550 BC):
-Worker finishes road- Heads to BG tile 1 NE of Carthage

IBT:
-Borders expand
-Carthage: Warrior->Warrior

Turn 11(3500 BC):
-Carthage Warrior fortifies
-Worker builds road

IBT:
zzz

Turn 12(3450 BC):
zzz

IBT:
zzz

Turn 13(3400 BC):
-Worker finishes road, heads to start road to future city #2.

IBT:
zzz

Turn 14(3350 BC):
-Worker starts road

IBT:
-Pottery finishes, start BW

Turn 15(3300 BC):
zzz

IBT:
-Carthage: Warrior->Settler

Turn 16(3250 BC):
:coffee:

IBT:
zzz

Turn 17(3200 BC):
-One of our exploring Warriors strikes gems and pops CB from a goody hut

And the rest of the set was :sleep:. Mostly just the Worker building road and the Warrior exploring. Here's the World looks like right now (the #2 is my intended city #2):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Hello,World!.JPG


And a Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Hannibal_of_the_Carthaginians,_3000 _BC.SAV)

This spoiler is for Bucephalus' eyes only.
I like your turnset. Very solid. I would have done much of the same thing. Worked the commerce tiles (fast pace for space!), chopped (any loss of shields?)and pre-built for a gran...absolutely beautiful. The only thing I may have considered differently is getting the wheat up and running. I would've probably moved the warrior in a straighline NW since another warrior would likely be built before a settler. Nice turnset!:thumbsup:
Maybe add your gold and gpt so others can see.

Perhaps I was unclear with my description but I had roaded & irrigated the wheat by turn 20; I planned to work it with the new citizen, due in two. The warrior thing, I never play with barbs so I'm unsure of what threat they pose; didn't want to leave Carthage undefended.
Thanks for your encouraging comments.

Here's my turnset , I post it without a Spoiler because i don't know how , lol .

Turn 1 4000BC -
Looks good , everybody found Carthage on the spot , I guess I'll have other try.
Send settler South to the Coast , and the worker already Mines it's place .

Turn 2 3950BC -
Found Carthage. starts warrior , Science raise to 80% , researching Writing since we already have tradeable expensive technologies , and writing expensive too . we'll can trade'em for other technologies , I'm sure we'll can have Pottery + other tech and maybe + gold for those .
I'm going on risk to meet someone to trade with him. We're going for Space are'nt we?
btw..I've Cattle out of my borders, but it'll inside after cultural expand

Turn 3 3900BC - nothing , but my plans to send the worker to the cattle.

Turn 4 3850BC - Mine is ready , worker start road .

Turn 5 3800BC - nothing

Turn 6 3750BC - road complete , worker moves 1NW to do the same .

Turn 7 3700BC - Warrior is ready , i send him to explore east . Carthage starts Warrior .I down the Science to 50%, and the researching turns has no change , we've now +2gpt.
Worker start build mine .

Turn 8 3650BC - nothing

Turn 9 3600BC - nothing

Turn 10 3550BC - the Warrior explores and see Cattle on plains , river over hills and a Forest Game . worker start road the mined tile .

Turn 11 3500BC - nothing

Turn 12 3450BC - Carthage Warrior . I'm going for Settler ( 10 turns ) .We've Cultural expanding, and we can now work the Cattle.
Warrior send exploring the north. I raise the lux to 10%

Turn 13 3400BC - the east exploring warrior can see Wine between hills, it's not so far from the Cattle and the coast ( can be a good settle spot )

Turn 14 3550BC - two Furs founded north. worker mines the cattle tile.

Turn 15 3300BC - zzz

Turn 16 3250BC - zzz

Turn 17 3200BC - the worker roads the tile

Turn 18 3150BC - nothing

Turn 19 3100BC - worker go 1NE to mine and road , near river ..

Turn 20 3050BC - I can see with the warrior more Furs east ( but it's too far )
Settler is now finished . and Carthage goes for Worker .

Okay finished .

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3600/coolcats5bh.jpg

Maybe not the best choice , with the writing . but who knows :)

Spoiler for Kill Fire and those that have finished their set.

You did a nice job exploring and popping CB! My greatest concern about the turnset was you built roads but didn't develop any tiles. The capital needs shields since it will be our most powerful city at the outset. By not developing the tiles after they were roaded slows down all builds. You'll notice that you got a warrior out in 5 and the 2nd in 5 more. If the bonus grasslands had been mined and the wheat irrigated we could've finished more stuff in shorter times with more citizens. We really don't need a road to our 2nd city since the settler will get there.

Spoiler for goodsmell and those that have finished their set.
I like your idea on researching writing. Good thinking for a space shot. The AI tends to finish all the first line techs before starting on the 2nd line techs. This makes writing very tradeable.

Turn 7 for warrior. Were you working the wheat? The wheat will allow the city to grow faster at the expense of production and commerce. The two bonus grasslands along the river are very powerful since they will be highly productive and high commerce sites. Your worker will not be able to finish in 3 turns since the city won't grow from size 1 for 5 turns. This is where irrigating the wheat would help a lot.

General comments:

On moving to the coast...
A mistake. You have removed yourself from the viscinity of the river. That means you are capped at 6 population and need to build an aqueduct. Yes, you got access to the ocean, but many of your cities will probably have that. And you got access to a cow, but you don't need that with wheat and floodplains. You could build a second city next to the cow and the river AND the coast later.

On irrigating wheat...
Irrigating grassland as a despot gives you nothing. See my math before. But irrigating wheat does. Normal wheat is what, 4 food, irrigated to 5 food? Despot penalty is -1, so those numbers are 3 food and 4 food. Irrigating still helps. The things you don't get a bonus from is irrigated grassland and mined hills (as a despot they are no better than forests).

On exploring...
I see some of you exploring evenly and other lopsided. I'd make it a priority to get someone on that first mountain so I can see further. Standing on mountains gives you greater distance of vision. Then you start exploring. You'd find out that to the northeast there is a sizable jungle. I wouldn't spend much time exploring that since it won't be productive to build roads or cities that way. Once you learn the jungle is large, focus on the flat lands you will be expanding in.

On worker turns...
We want our settler factory..er..capital to reach a population of 4 before it pops out a settler. So we should have our worker improve 4 squares inside the border of Carthage. I'd definitely irrigate the wheat and mine the bonus grass. I might also irrigate the floodplain (2 food sources makes an even faster settler factory).

On settlement choices...
I see killfire is thinking ahead. And he's selected a good spot, but too distant for a second city. For my 2nd city I'd found east of the cow between the river and the coast. This will be my military unit factory (remember we need a settler factory and a military factory. That forest will provide plenty of shields while the irrigated cow will give a little more food so I can grow. 3rd city might be on the north side of the river near floodplains, mountain and furs (think about obtaining luxuries as unhappiness will suck early in the game). 4th city would be right where killfire suggested. It's got a cow, a river, wines, and is defensible (on a hill). One thing I'll note is that I see a choke point. One thing I want to do is to claim all the land from coast to coast. This way I can more easily hold off AI settlers trying to get between or around my cities. Later I'd find out what jclast already knows, that it is a peninsula. Knowing that helps me later since I know that unless the AI is using galleys, I have sole access to that land which I can settle at my convenience as slowly as I feel like.

Whomp, what do you think? Am I making the right kind of comments? I'm trying to keep them hidden in case someone hasn't played his 20 turns yet. So why would you build a grainary in Carthage? I probably wouldn't. That is because with floodplains and wheat both irrigated, we're going to be growing almost too fast and those mined BGs might not keep up if we also had a granary. Plus building the granary slows down the first settler. What is your thinking on this?

Whomp you're absolutely right about the irrigation , Should Irrigate wheat first , missed that. maybe that's why worker won't be complete after 3 turns because the city grows only after 5 turns. Alex Johnson maybe you right about the Coast , but I don't know I see it's good to settle Coast. well everybody played or not ? Will you choose the SAVE we'll play the next ?
ohh I see choxorn did'nt play , so what you're waiting for :) ? go ahead .
and I think Johnson right about the Granary , we can advance our expanding early.

If continue my SAVE you can just change the production , someone said do not build Barracks before meeting someone in your continent , maybe you right but why should'nt we build it now , that we can release veteran units later . but also an option to irrigate asap the wheat and take care about our expanding .

btw , can someone please take my SAVE and check if it works ? I afraid I've reinstall again , and if I need , I'll do it now or as soon as you check it

Let's be patient good smell and let Choxorn and Cody (anyone I missed?) have their 48 hours. We're in no rush. This is a training game.

Alex my comments...for lurkers and players who've played their 20.
I agree moving off a river makes no sense. Your suggestions are solid. Dotmapping will be the next lesson for city placement. Generally, a cxxc placement will have many benefits and we will discuss this once all the saves are in and we've chosen one of them. There will be cases where cxxxc makes more sense so 'ducts are not necessary, to capture a resource or lux.

However, I would disagree on building the granary. I'd prefer to have the city go from pop 4 to 6 every 4 turns with a settler factory rather than at pop 4 to 2 or 5 to 3. Unless there's a shield intensive/high food site going from 5 to 3 can be a bit more difficult to get 4 turn settlers out.
Here's the math..
At pop 4 the city needs 5fpt and 6 shields to make this work. It would have12s in the bin when it grows to pop 5 and we get 2 added on when the citizen is added on the IT for a total of 14s.
At pop 5 the player needs to move the citizen off the forest to a bg (mined or not) for 2 more turns generating 14s again. On growth to 6 the citizen again moves to the forest and the settler pops with exactly 30 shields and the process starts again from pop 4 to 6.

It will be interesting whose start the team chooses but we still have a few players to go.

An aside...something everyone should do is have the governor "emphasize production in all cities" because this means the highest shield tile will get the new citizen on the IT. After growth the new citizen needs to be moved back to a food or commerce tile.

Granted, I'm pretty green, but the reason you don't build a barracks yet is because since we have nobody to fight, it's just lost money to pay the upkeep on the barracks. After all, if we need one really badly down the line we could always rush it.

Very good jclast. Watch those nickels and dimes. We are in the expansion phase of this game (aka farmers gambit) and what use would the capital have with a barracks (rax) if our settler factory is in the capital? It's more likely a 2nd or 3rd city will provide our raxed units.

Start thinking about locations for these specialized cities (IE dotmaps).

Where is the settler facory? Where is the worker pump (a must have)? What city has military written all over it? Where is the high commerce/science city and why?
Where are these cities going to be placed to accomplish this and why?

As a sidenote, you will see smoke coming out of my nose, ears and eyes if I see any regular (vs. vet) unit produced other than a warrior or occasional archer.

Guys I'm sorry maybe that's stupid to ask question like this , but that's for my settlement along the Coast.

We're playing as Carthage ,we're Industrious & Seafaring , Seafring giving us a commerce bonus when we're building a city near the Coast and Harbor will be much easier to build and ships unless likely to sink at middle of the ocean or the sea .

Doesn't it help ? Does'nt it usefull ?

Guys I'm sorry maybe that's stupid to ask question like this , but that's for my settlement along the Coast.

We're playing as Carthage ,we're Industrious & Seafaring , Seafring giving us a commerce bonus when we're building a city near the Coast and Harbor will be much easier to build and ships unless likely to sink at middle of the ocean or the sea .

Doesn't it help ? Does'nt it usefull ?

In PTW Carthage is Commercial & Industrious

This is one of those annoying, confusing things about expansion packs and changing the rules of the game that I hate. In PTW they added Carthage. In C3C they changed Carthage. To play this game you'll have to be playing PTW version.

@goodsmell: Here's how you do spoilers: type [ /spoiler] omitting the space.
@scout: You're playing? :confused:
Oh, and I'm spoilering this for cody. He shouldn't though, since everybody but him has played now.
[spoiler]
Turn 1(4000 BC):
-I like this start, and build Carthage on the spot. Set it to build Warrior.
-Send worker to improve BG tile 1NW of Carthage which is being worked by citizen.

IBT:
Start research on BW at 80%

Turn 2(3950 BC):
-worker builds road

IBT:
zzz

Turn 3(3900 BC):
zzz

IBT:
zzz

Turn 4(3850 BC):
-Send worker to wheat tile 1SW of Carthage

IBT:
zzz

Turn 5(3800 BC):
-worker roads

IBT:
Carthage: Warrior->Warrior

Turn 6(3750 BC):
-Warrior finds two furs

IBT:
zzz

Turn 7(3700 BC):
-Worker finishes road- prepare to road towards furs where I intend to build second city

IBT:
zzz

Turn 8(3650 BC):
-Worker clears forest

IBT:
zzz

Turn 9(3600 BC):
zzz

IBT:
zzz

Turn 10(3550 BC):
:coffee:

IBT:
Carthage: Warrior->Warrior

Turn 11(3500 BC):
-New Warrior sets out to explore SW

IBT:
zzz

Turn 12(3450 BC):
-Warrior in North disturbs angry Thracian Warrior- make that 3 Thracians

IBT:
-Thracians attack warrior: He kills them both, loses one HP, and promotes to veteran 3/4. (2-0)
-Carthage: Warrior->Warrior (I don't know why it was two turns instead of 5, either)

Turn 13(3400 BC):
-New Warrior explores west
-Worker finishes clearing forest- build road
-Warrior attacks third Thracian, redlines, but wins.

IBT:
zz

Turn 14(3350 BC):
-redlined Warrior fortifies

IBT:
zzz

Turn 15(3300 BC):
:sleep:

IBT:
zzz

Turn 16(3250 BC):
-Worker now on furs clears forest

IBT:
zzz

Turn 17(3200 BC):
zzz

IBT:
Carthage: Warrrior->Settler

Turn 18(3150 BC):
-Carthage Warrior fortifies

IBT:
-I discover BW: research set to Pottery

And nothing else interesting happened the rest of the set.

Here's what my workd looks like:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/endturn.JPG
Note: My intended second city spot is the square 1NW of where the worker is now. Guess I forgot to put it there. :blush:


And Here's a save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Hannibal_of_the_Carthaginians,_3000_BC.SAV (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Hannibal_of_the_Carthaginians,_3000_BC2.SAV)

1NW of the worker , is'nt it BG ?I never settle on BG's I settle near them .
Why did you start with BW ? better was early researching pottery , before the military tech.

You did'nt work your 1st city Tiles , and you already working on the 2nd . The settler will be ready in 7turns untill those 7turns you could mine at least the BG near the river .

you chose a nice spot to settle , but I can't avoid the spot near the Wine Cattle and River and Coast

Some comments. Not on people's games but on initial strategy.

Exploration:

As far as possible explore along cardinal lines: north, south, east or west. A move in these directions reveals more new tiles than a diagonally move. When you reach a shoreline, generally keep close enough to the coast to know where it is, but not right on it. There will be nothing of interest in the water for a long long time.

When exploring large land areas, move in a swastika fashion. One explorer goes out along one cardinal and then turns ninety degrees and continues. The next starts ninety degrees away and turns in the same direction. This optimises explorer moves.

Don't be afraid to leave cities empty. The AI rarely attacks until the land is filled up or if you settle right nextto it.

Techs:

There are only three possible setting for the slider: no research, 1 beaker research and as much as you can afford. This means that at the beginning, it should always be set at 10-20% (whatever gives 1 beaker for a 40 turn gambit) or 100%.

Plan on trading for techs. As such, never choose Bronze Working or Warrior Code as your initial research. The AI loves to research these. Get something else and trade. trade. trade.

The right initial choice depends on the situation. When you need a settler factory, as here, pottery is usually the best.

Any second-level tech you have access to immediately is another good choice. You have the jump on the AI towards that tech and will likely get it first so you can trade it around.

The final possibility is to gear up for the future. This means that you research Alphabet followed by either Writing or Math. The former is good because it opens up a bunch of third-level techs and enables contact-trading, the latter because the AI doesn't like it much. Maximum research on Alphabet followed by minimum on one of these may be a good tactic, especially it you want to save up money for an early war.

Later in this era, do not research MapMaking (unless you are alone, in which case it is top priority) or Construction. Good choices are Polytheism Literature, and especially Currency.

Carthage starts with both Alphabet and Masonry, the only civ that does, so a 40-turn gambit on Math is quite attractive even after researching Pottery. Personally I prefer max research even so, unless I am planning on an early war. This doesn't appear to be in the cards in this game.

xposted with abegweit. :lol:@scout: You're playing? No Scout is not playing however in a training game it is very useful to have a player of Scout's caliber shadow the opening moves he chose versus what the "cool cats" did. I recommend reading it again because IIRC Scout had a couple warriors, a gran and 2 workers within his 20.

OK it doesn't look like Cody will be able to play within the 48 hour limit.

Let's talk about what you like and don't like about each others first 20. I have my thoughts but this is your game so I would like to see what you all think.

Once we decide on whose save to play then we will get this thing rolling. A dotmap for city placement will be necessary once we choose the save.

A few things I think need some improvement right off the bat. Worker tasks were very scattered. We will need work on this. Many of you decided not to develop the capital and instead build roads to places no citizens could work the fields. The fastest way to get commerce and shields improved was to develop the two BG's that are on the river. Very powerful early game impact. The other decision was the wheat. Irrigating the wheat immediately gives power of growth. My guess is some of you left a new citizen on a forest tile when the city grew. :nono: Remember in this game "growth is power". It take 10 turns to grow on a BG tile and 20 on a forest tile.

Research choices were mixed. I don't see a lot of benefit to researching BW since the AI loves to research it. There was much you could've learned about who the other civs are in the game and made a good decision that way. No one told us who the other civs are in the game.

Does anyone know how to find this out?

Exploration was good for the most part. I prefer to head on an angle either SW/SE/NW/NE using hills and mountains to find the other civs based on where I'm at on the minimap. A second warrior can either head the other direction and/or scout out new city sites.
For Choxorn...
Turn 7(3700 BC):
-Worker finishes road- prepare to road towards furs where I intend to build second city Choxorn you built a lot of roads but no developments and started developing for a 2nd city when we don't have a 2nd city. The capital is the only place where science can be improved so roading and developing the BGs makes sense as well as getting that wheat irrigated. The faster we grow the more cities and more science we create. You chopped for 10 shields. Where did they go? Overrun for the warrior? Better to have chops go for expensive items rather than cheap ones. On top of that we have unit support with only warriors being built. I tend to go for techs the AI won't research. BW they will research.

Yes they'll early research tthe BW and also the Iron working .
So we can go for writing / math ..or just run to the 3rd techs and go for a slingshot.
But as Whomp said for researching it before the AI will , we've to use every opportunity to grow up and hurry our researching , since it's not an Emperor level or above we can research by ourself and not Gambit no Regent ! ( I think it's stupid )
we can do Settler factory ;) it'll be very very usefull for our expansion so we need a dotmap as Whomp said , let's rock.

We can't know if the AI will research the Polytheism or not , I saw AI not researching it and some researching it . I guess everybody played their 20turns , what now great Whomp? ;)

goodsmell who's opening 20 would you use and why? other than Scout's though he didn't tell us who the AI are either. :p

Does anyone know how to find this out?

Press F10?

I prefer to head on an angle either SW/SE/NW/NE using hills and mountains to find the other civs based on where I'm at on the minimap. A second warrior can either head the other direction and/or scout out new city sites. I am sorry, Whomp, but this is simply wrong. Explore in straight lines. As an example, consider moving through grasslands (similar considerations apply to other terrain). A move along a cardinal will reveal 5 new tiles while a a diagonal will only get you 3. If you want to go diagonally, zigzag. Moving east-east-north-north gets you to the same location as moving north-east four times. However it reveals many more tiles. The diagonal move gets you twelve and the zigzag gets you (I think I counted right) nineteen.

Cardinal directions are simply so much more powerful that even a diagonal move onto a mountain is usually a bad idea. You will get more revealed that turn, but nothing shows up on the following one. Meanwhile you have moved off the line, messing up your surveying.

Press F10?
Good. Can you tell us who were up against. I'd like to know their opening traits and techs to see what were up against.

Thanks abegweit. You guys do what abegweit said. He's right. My bad.

Good. Can you tell us who were up against. I'd like to know their opening traits and techs to see what were up against.

Mongols; Indians; Koreans; Arabs; Aztecs; Chinese; Spanish.

I vot for Bucephalus's save. He got an early granary, irrigated the wheat, and seemed to do a fair bit of exploring.

I'll vote for one who is close for settler factory , then we will build our army in our new
cities . But guys , does irrigating wheat is enough for settler factory ? maybe cattle would be more usefull after all ?

It looks like it's 3-0 for Bucephalus so far. (jclast and goodsmell and I presume he'd suggest his own start)


The irrigated wheat should be enough for 5fpt. The limiting factor in a 4 turn settler pump is food.
From one of my spoiler posts on settler factories....

I'd prefer to have the city go from pop 4 to 6 every 4 turns with a settler factory rather than at pop 4 to 2 or 5 to 3. Unless there's a shield intensive/high food site going from 5 to 3 can be a bit more difficult to get 4 turn settlers out.
Here's the math..
At pop 4 the city needs 5fpt and 6 shields to make this work. It would have12s in the bin when it grows to pop 5 and we get 2 added on when the citizen is added on the IT for a total of 14s.
At pop 5 the player needs to move the citizen off the forest to a bg (mined or not) for 2 more turns generating 14s again. On growth to 6 the citizen again moves to the forest and the settler pops with exactly 30 shields and the process starts again from pop 4 to 6.

Oh geez I forgot all about this! I'll post my turnset in a few minutes...

Sorry about being the last one, guys. At least it was inside 45 hours. :lol:

Turn 1: Carthage settled, warrior in 5 turns. Pottery in 24

Turn 2: Worker roads.

Turn 3: zzz

Turn 4: worker irrigates.

Turn 5: warrior built, goes exploring to SW.

Turn 6: worker roads.

Turn 7: worker irrigates.

Turn 8: another warrior is built, goes exploring to NE.

Turn 9: worker roads, warriors explore.

Turn 10: zzz

Turn 11: worker mines.

Turn 12: warrior is built, settler in 10 turns.

Turn 13: zzz

Turn 14: zzz

Turn 15: Warrior pops goody hut, gets ceremonial burial!!

Turn 16: Settler will be done in 4 turns due to pop. growth and mining.

Turn 17: Oopsie, civil disorder.

Turn 18: pottery discovered, bronze working in 24 turns.

Turn 19: zzz

Turn 20: settler built

1NW of the worker , is'nt it BG ?I never settle on BG's I settle near them .
It's a Plains square.
@All: I tend to build roads first to get to my first few cities, then start mining/irrigating after I build another worker or two.
P.S.
could scout and cody post screenies? it would help us compare games.
P.P.S. Will post dotmap soon. :)

@All: I tend to build roads first to get to my first few cities, then start mining/irrigating after I build another worker or two.
Bad habit and we will stop that right here. It's really not that important to get roads to new cities. It's more important to make developments and crank up the capital. The settler will get there in due time.

could scout and cody post screenies? it would help us compare games.I can't speak for cody, but here's a screenshot of the capitol:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/scout_playing_choxorn.jpg

Some notes on this screenshot:
The 4th citizen (working the irrigated floodplain) is there to show the team where you get that 5th food per turn.
If I were actually playing this, I would not have the citizen working the irrigated floodplain. Working the unimproved BG gets the warrior in 2, and doesn't affect growth. The 5th citizen will work the floodplain, and the town will not be permitted to drop below pop5 while the city is used as a settler pump in despotism.
For the classic 4 turn settler pump, you need
A granary
5 surplus food per turn
30 shields in 4 turns
5 citizens and a (preferably) full granary at the beginning of the settler build queue

So to get this settler pump up and running, one of the workers will start improving a BG immediately. The other will road the Floodplain, then cross the river to the other FP, road that, and go to the BG S of the city center without wasting any worker moves.
After improving that BG, the worker could go back to the roaded grass that we chopped the forest on. Though it appears to waste a worker move, it gets him back on the other side of the river without wasting a travel turn.
First settler could be sent NW, to claim Furs.
Note that when the worker finishes roading that second FP, you'll have a nice westward road to travel on.
The worker standing in the capitiol will improve the 2 BGs E and E-SE of the city.
After improving both BGs, its going to the cow, to start improving the 3rd city site.

The single best way to improve your game is to pay attention to your worker moves. Workers are the single most important unit in the game. You have one at 4000 B.C., and you will have them when you launch a spaceship to Alpha Centauri. Consider this carefully, and you are on your way to improving your game.

OK Choxorn how about a lineup and a team decision on whose save to use. Right now we are 3-0 for Bucephalus.

For Cody....

Cody I'm not sure which tiles you were working but pottery in 18 seems awfully long. Were you working and developing the commerce tiles? On turn 4 you said you irrigated. What did you irrigate? Do you have civassist or mapstat? Either of these programs will help you avoid disorder. Try to give us a picture and some detail for your next turnset. Good to have you running with the Cool Cats. :D

For the classic 4 turn settler pump, you need [LIST=1]
A granary
5 surplus food per turn
30 shields in 4 turns
5 citizens and a (preferably) full granary at the beginning of the settler build queue.

Hmm. Try as I might I can't see a 4 turn settler pump in Carthage; I believe it to be only capable of 5 turns.

There are many different kinds of settler factories. The most common one requires 4 turns of 6, 7, 8 and 9 shields for a total of 30 and +5 food on each one of those turns. This can be done on this site.

The most common SF starts at size 4 and generates 6 shields the first round, then 8, 7 and 9 on the subsequent ones. Really rich locations can do the same thing starting at size 3. A SF can't start at size 4 here because it's not rich enough. It will only generate 5, 7, 6 and 8. Four short.

Well. If something richer than normal can start lower, what should you do with something poorer than normal?

There are many different kinds of settler factories. The most common one requires 4 turns of 6, 7, 8 and 9 shields for a total of 30 and +5 food on each one of those turns. This can be done on this site.

Could you please demonstrate this?

We can't get enough shields if we start at size four. So how can we get more?

We can't get enough shields if we start at size four. So how can we get more?

By starting at size 5? I hadn't considered that.

There are settler factories which start at any size from 3 to 5. And don't forget the half sizes either. E.g. those that start when the city is ready to grow.

If you start at size 5, the city must be on a river (or have an aqueduct, I suppose) because in order to get the extra shields it must be able to grow to size 7 for a tiny moment in the inter-turn.

OK it seems like Bucephalus' start is it. Bucephalus can you post a screenie and save. A dotmap is in order.

The next 10 turns are very important because they will be the turns that set up the settler pump. As Abegweit stated, thanks Abegweit, the capital has the potential for a 4 turn settler pump but how? This will be very tricky because as he says you will need 5fpt and the settler has to be built just as it would grow to size 7. Can someone tell us why we don't want the city to stay at size 7?

How about this for a lineup...
Bucephalus -- just went
Choxorn-- up
goodsmell --on deck
jclast --
kill fire --
Cody the smart dude--

Can someone tell us why we don't want the city to stay at size 7?

Answer: Once you are at size 7, the amount of food it takes to grow increases to the next level, making it much slower to grow. Time spent at size 7 is wasted if your goal is to grow 2 population as fast as possible. When you shrink again by pumping out a settler, you will lose some of the time spent collecting food at size 7.

OK it seems like Bucephalus' start is it. Bucephalus can you post a screenie and save. A dotmap is in order.

Screenie on post 125.

Here's the save:

OK city is at size 2 and will finish a gran next turn. Without being able to see the save is there a way to get it to grow in 1 and still finish the gran? Remember "emphasize production for all cities" will give you shields on the IT.

Worker tasks will be very important on these next 10 turns. What are the plans for the worker? What is the most efficient use of worker turns to get our settler factory up and running? What tile should the third citizen be working?

We know that the city needs to be size 5 to start a settler factory so growing the capital and manipulating the lux slider will be very important. The objective is to get the city to 30 shields in 4 turns and food to 5fpt.

What builds make sense for these turns?
What about exploration?

Here's the screenie...


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126122&d=1147158172

For Whomp:

Yes, I do have CivAssistII. What I need help with is which tiles to work. In scout's picture, I irrigated the wheat, but I irrigated what he has mined. Also, I didn't irrigate the flood plain, but I mined the unworked tile to the east.

I'm also not really sure about the civil disorder. I'm not really sure what I did... guess I just wasn't paying attention.

I don't think we'll be using my save :lol:

I think we should first work the BG's tiles and the river tiles , we can settler our 2nd city 1SW to the 1st BG near the Furs . and then we can settle near the north and east silks

Okay... I spent too much time in this (and other stuff) last night ... one quick post and then it's off to the SGOTM. Hmm. Try as I might I can't see a 4 turn settler pump in Carthage; I believe it to be only capable of 5 turns.@Whomp: Check my math on this:

Carthage (as I set it up) isn't quite ready for settler pumping... but after some terrain improvement, here's how it might work:

Turn 0 - Carthage is size 5, working 3 mined BG (6 spt), Irrigated wheat (2 surplus fpt), Irrigated Floodplain (1 surplus fpt) and getting 2 fpt +1spt from the city center. Net 5 fpt and 7spt.

Turn 1 - Carthage is size 5, working the same tiles. 7 shields in the bin, and 5 food from growing.

Turn 2 - Carthage is size 6 with 14 shields in the bin, and working a 4th mined BG. Now Carthage is producing 9 spt and 5 fpt.

Turn 3 - Still size 6, 23 shields in the bin, one turn from growth, and will have a 2 shield overrun when the city grows next turn.

Turn 4 - As the city grows to size 7, the production bin fills, finishing the settler. It doesn't really matter what the extra citizen works, but I would have a nice riverside grass tile fully improved to pick up an extra shilling. The settler is completed, and the city drops back to pop 5.

Rinse and repeat. You could probably road and mine a couple of riverside grass tiles, and let a town near the cow have one of the BGs.

And there you have it Cool Cats. Scout showed you how to do it and Abegweit came up with the same thing.

So the question is how do you get there? What will the worker do to accomplish this for you? You should work out the moves in your head and consider the cities growth at the same time.

Turn 3 - Still size 6, 23 shields in the bin, one turn from growth, and will have a 2 shield overrun when the city grows next turn. Overrun? Absolutely. That's because three mined BGs are enough. Mining a fourth is overkill.

You could probably .. let a town near the cow have one of the BGs.Absolutely. While mining the fourth BG is not necessary to get the settler factory up and running, additional production may well be useful for other reasons. What does this imply about the proper placement of cities? The answer is implcit in Scoutsout's commentary.

@Whomp

Wouldn't you want the gran to finish a turn before pop grows? I was under the impression that the food would empty on growth and you'd have to build back those 5 stored food. Or would the gran fill as it completed before the new citizen appeared, so that only 5 food would empty and not 10? Jeez, perhaps I should be Emperor training as well. :crazyeye:

@Abegweit: Good teaching points off my notes.

@Team: Since working 4 mined BGs is overkill... what might that imply as far as the priority between roading and mining the BGs? Do we have any other potentially powerful squares are within the capitol's city radius... that aren't necessarily needed by the capitol at this time?

@ Monkey...that's a good question. Maybe Abegweit, TimBentley (if he's lurking) or another lurker could expound on that.

My thinking is the gran would still need to fill 10 food from pop 3 to 4 anyhow so why not start the turn the gran finishes. If you wait for growth at pop 2 it would seem like it would delay growth a turn for pop 4.

@Cool Cats....can someone give me the worker moves (with coordinates of the tile worked) for the next 10 turns? I think you should all do this as an exercise because this is what separates regent level cool cats from emperor level cool cats.

@ Whomp -- I'll have to sit and do the math to see just what a difference that 1 turn might make. My gut instinct says that if you can fill the gran on one turn and then add a third citizen on the next, you'll save many turns by having only 5 food to replace and not 10 to get to size 4. But this is advanced analysis that I'll have to work out on a Wendy's napkin.

@Buce: Why is your save at 3100 BC? It should be 3050 BC.

@Buce: Why is your save at 3100 BC? It should be 3050 BC.
Dunno, I thought I'd saved at the end of turn 20.

How to build a settler factory

Each starting location is different and consequently the optimal way to get the settler factory up and running wiill be different as well. The best players work out every move in advance. Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3309152&postcount=58) is an example taken from the game of one of the top teams in SGOTM-9. In a friendly game, it is not necessary to go that far. For now, maybe it will be better just to talk some general pointers.

Recognise the possiblity of a settler factory

Anytime, you have the possibility of 3 surplus food at a site (5 total), you should be on the lookout for a factory. This particular location actually has four additional (two from the wheat and one from each of the FPs). Four additional food is often useful for the general health of a civ. However, the subject here is settler factories and it is rarely required for the proper functioning of a factory.

The next question is whether the location also has enough shields. While there are other types of factories, the vast majority are of the same type as the one in Bamspeedy's excellent Diety Settlers article.

This type of factory requires 5 food at all times. It must have 6 uncorrupted shields at when size x (where x is somewhere between 3 and 5), and 7 shields at size x + 1. It also requires an additional 2s tile to be available on growth. If x is 5, the city must be on a river or lake because otherwise the city will refuse to grow and use the 2s tile.

This games shows us another example of this type. We can generate the necessary 3 additional food by irrigating and using one FP and the wheat. Unfortunately this gives no shields whatsoever. They will have to come from elsewhere. One comes from the city core, two each from a pair of mined BGs and the final one from another BG. That makes the required six. We have the necessary 2s tile for use on growth - a forest. We also have yet another BG which gives us the 1s2f tile need for use at size x+1.

Counting up, we have 1FP, 1 wheat, 2 mined BGs and 1BG at size x. There is 1FP, 1 wheat, 2 mined BGs and 2BGs at size x+1. x therefore equals 5. In the community lingo this is called a 5-7 factory because it cycles up from size 5 to size 7 at which time it falls back to size 5.

You should be able to recognise this type of factory almost automatically. Remember the required conditions: 5 food, 6 shields at size x, 7 shields at size x + 1, an additional 2s tile and a river or lake if x = 5.


Decide which tiles need to be worked.

This location is one of the easiest to develop that I have ever seen. In order to get the factory up and running, only four tiles have to be developed: one FP, the wheat, and two BGs. And we have vanilla industrious workers as well!

Later on we might consider switching some tiles around. For example, our 1s2f tile might become a river grass for the extra commerce. It is not desirable to waste valuable squares like BGs and FPs so they should later be given over to other cities to work. This is one of many reasons to put cities fairly close together - so that valuable squares are not wasted.

However, getting the settler factory up and running takes precedence over everything- and I mean everything. It takes precedence over military. It takes precedence over exploration. It takes precedence over future city growth. Everything. It takes precedence over worker efficiency too. If you have to skip roading a square to get everything done in time, do it.

In this case we, we will use all four BGs at the beginning plus the wheat and the southern FP (why that one?). Later, two of the BGs can be traded for regular grass or plains.


Know the game mechanics

We have been talking about how the game counts shields from a tile when a city grows to the next size (although not food, curiously). Well the same thing applies to improvements. If irrigation is about finish on a tile, the improvement will be counted. So if you have irrigated the wheat for one for one turn (three turns for a non-industrious civ), the game is lying when it says the tile is worth +1 food. It actually is worth +2 and that is what will be credited to you on the inter-turn. The same thing applies to mining. That one additional food or shield could be critical.


Decide the order in which the tiles need to be developed.

In general, the BGs come first, especially if you don't have a 2f-2s tile (forest deer, for example) from the beginning. This is because you need productive power to build that granary, which is very expensive at this point in the game. Once you have the granary and the food, it won't take long to get up to size.

For example, consider the case where the granary could be built before the town grows to size three. In this case, it takes nineteen long turns to get the granary up (as SimpleMonkey points out, it should be completed on the turn before growth) and only five more to get all the way from size two to size five! Even if you could use a +1 f tile all the way from the beginning of the game, that would still be 13 turns before the granary vs. five turns afterward. And this is for a 5-7 factory. For a 3-5, the difference is 13 to 1! In short, money for the granary is always the most important thing.

Most (but not all) settler factories have one tile which gives +1f immediately and +2f after irrigation plus another which adds another food. This is one example. The wheat gives us two food and the fp gives one. Getting the +2f tile up to speed is also important. When working this tile, we can grow in 5 turns instead of 7 before the granary is built and 3 turns instead of 4 afterwards.

The balance between the BGs and the +2f tile is delicate and each case is different. Often you will want to use the BGs until the factory reaches size two, switching one to the +2f at some point while the factory is at size 2 or 3. If the +2f tile is more powerful, like a grass cow, it will move up importance relative to the BGs. However, the gain from developing +2f tile is always small, at best a turn or two and usually is nothing at all. Mining BGs will get you closer to that granary and, as we have already seen, the granary is priority 1. You won't go far wrong if you simply follow the rule to get the BGs first and the food afterwards.

After the BGs and the +2f tile comes +1 food tile. This gets us from growth in three down to growth in two. While it is almost always less important to get going than the +2f tile, it may take precedence over at least one of the BGs. This is because BGs no longer serve any purpose after the granary is completed until the factory is up to size while the +1f tile helps speed up growth. However, the BGs better be very close to completion when we start to use the +1f tile because otherwise the factory will grow out of control.

The final tile to develop is the 1s2f one. It won't be needed at all until size x+1 and it should always be improved last. The only possible reason to do it earlier is worker efficiency. For example, you might put a road on it to get to another more important tile. In our case, this tile is ready for use from the get-go so this is not a consideration.

This implies that Bucephalus' start, while good, is non-optimal because the next tile he has to work is the FP and he can't get there in one step from where he is. Furthermore, the worker should be heading towards the cow at the end in order to start improving tiles for the next city. This is the best tile on the map and improving it should be our next priority after the settler factory.


Forest chops

Chopping a forest can often help get the granary up faster and should usually be considered. This is particularly true in Conquests where a chop only takes 4 turns. This is Vanilla so it's much more expensive. However, it's only five turns with an industrious civ so maybe... Nope we only have one and we need it for the factory to work properly, so it's absolutely out of the question.


Additional worker

Sometimes a second worker speeds up development of a factory. However, in this case, we only have to develop 4 tiles and our worker runs on steroids. It's hard to see why we would need it.

Should a second worker be required, an additional question arises. Should he be produced before the granary or after? The first gets more production in, which helps to get the granary up faster. It wastes food, though, because the worker costs twenty food before the granary and only ten afterwards.

In general, the answer to this question depends on whether you have excess food or excess shields. Use up whatever you have more of. In a food-rich location, build the worker first. For example, if your factory will turn around an FP wheat, get the worker out to mine those BGs. If it turns around a grass deer, get the granary up. You already have a good shield producer. Get a BG mined while building the granary, switch production to it, then chop the forest over the deer.


Putting it all together

I haven't crunched the numbers but my intuition tells me that the optimal sequence for tile development is southernBG - wheat - FP - riverBG - easternBG. This sequence wastes no worker moves and leaves him heading in the right direction at the end. The idea that the southern BG should be worked before the river BG is far from intuitive and only planning out the plays in advance can lead to the right conclusion.

However, it is not difficult at all to figure out if the right questions are asked up front. What tiles need to be developed and where do we want the worker(s) to be when everything is done? What is the most efficient way to reach this objective? The optimal sequence simply pops out.

However, there is another question which is even important - does this sequence get the granary finished when we want do to be?

OK. Time for some higher math.

Objective: get the granary up before we reach size three, at which point the FP should be ready for use. Alternately, rapidly reach size four through use of lots of food (read iWheat). Second BG must be mined before the capital reaches size five.

Intuitive sequence tile development times:
sBG: 6 turns (move, mine, road)
wheat: 5 turns (move, irr, road)
FP: 5 turns (move, irr, road)
rBG: 3 turns (move, mine)
Total: 19 turns

Note that the riverBG is only 3 turns because the factory is functional at this point. We will certainly continue through with the road afterwards. Then it's on to the eastern BG and the cow!

Nineteen turns. So the whole thing could be done exactly when the city is about to grow to size three. :D It might be a more optimal to grow a bit faster while building the granary though.

So let's count the shields we need to build that granary. The city works the riverBG for three turns and then switches to the southernBG just before the mine is about to complete. 60 - 3*2 -6*3 = 36 shields left to go when the city is about to grow. At this point we add back the river BG, giving us four shields per turn. 36 / 4 = 9. Granary built and 16 food in the bin. A perfect fit! Switch to the iWheat on the next turn and up we go! Two warriors can be built while the factory is getting up to size. Total time: 23 turns.

I suspect that this sequence is not perfect. It might be possible to shave off a turn and/or get a warrior out before the granary by judicious use of the wheat. However, it is good enough for anything other than the most serious game. Most importantly, none of the reasoning nor the math is complicated.

The only thing I'd be worried about is that the game might decide that the irrigated wheat is such a good tile that it would place the new citizen on that tile instead of the river BG when growing from size1 to 2. This can be solved by a little trick: road the wheat. Then move to the FP and improve that tile before finally irrigating the wheat. This will encourage it to use river BG instead of the wheat.

Bravo Abegweit. That is going on a piece of paper in my civ drawer!

Dunno, I thought I'd saved at the end of turn 20. Well, 3100 is turn 19, so I'll play 21 turns this set to get back on track.

@Whomp. Thanks. When I finished, I realised I had written a strategy article. With the teams' permisison to use this start, I'd like I'll re-write it appropriately and post it in the strategy forum. I'll probably add in another example, maybe something from one of my own games.

Well, 3100 is turn 19, so I'll play 21 turns this set to get back oon track.

Before you play anything we could do with discussing city placement. I don't think we can do this until we know that we all understand RCP, and then decide if it's appropriate. I must confess that I for one am hazy in my recollection as I habitually play 'Conquests'. I'm sure 'Whomp' or one of the senior lurkers will oblige with a masterclass.

With the teams' permisison to use this start, I'd like I'll re-write it appropriately and post it in the strategy forum. I'll probably add in another example, maybe something from one of my own games.
It would be an honour. Just be sure to pass on any royalties.

Yeah we need to discuss and think about a dotmap for city placement , but I guess it will be after the expert guys will finish their discussion about a settler factory and about their math for how can 1 turn save few turns . ;)

@Choxorn - Should'nt you play 10turns after the 1st turnset of 20turns by Bucephalus?
in that case it's 11turns , have fun ( after we discuss some things )

@goodsmell: according to my rules, we're playing sets of 20 turns until the IA. And it probably won't take that long since in Sima's game, I managed to play 20 turns in maybe an hour or so, maybe more, maybe less. Anyway, my point is, this is Regent and that was Emperor, and if I can finish pre-IA turnsets in a night on that game, we can easily finish turnsets that quickly here.

I highly recommend you play 10 at a time. If this is going to be a training game there's too much to discuss versus playing 20.

It's your game Choxorn but after seeing the first twenty played by this group I think it is way too much. As well, not to be too rough on you, but considering I followed you in Sima's game last time I have to say both of your 20 turn turnsets were not very focused. If it's only taking you an hour to play twenty turns then I think you're not thinking things all the way through. Just my pennies worth.

Okay maybe ten, but how about 20 for the AA at least? Otherwise it will be boring- you can play ten AA turns very quickly.

Okay maybe ten, but how about 20 for the AA at least? Otherwise it will be boring- you can play ten AA turns very quickly.
Bad plan. The AA is the difference between a good game and a bad one. Do you know your exact worker moves for the next ten turns? I haven't seen word one on your plan for the next ten turns let alone twenty.

If you want to play twenty I'd suggest you attempt a SP Regent game on your own and see how quickly you can play and win. I don't think the objective here is speed but more about learning. If I'm wrong on that I'll back off and you guys can play the game as you see fit. Please let me know whether we should stick around and help train or whether you guys want to just play it out.

Choxorn it's really your choice right , but 20 turns it's too much especialy it's a training game . let's play a 10turns more helpful , even if we'll start play faster we won't finish it in the next week , I think we will finish it soon if we will play 20 turns withought thinking about 10turns at least . ( finish by be defeated ) .

Please let me know whether we should stick around and help train or whether you guys want to just play it out.

I've already learned stuff; I'd like you to stick around.

Okay, then maybe the first few sets can be 20 turns- at least until the game starts going. I don't think a few 20-turn turnsets would hurt.

Chox: are you familiar with the principles of a Training game?

Since the goal is to learn and learning can't be done without showing what went wrong and what went right the game goes slowly. That gives the trainers time to explain and the trainees time to let it sink in.
For the same reason, training games have a small amount of turns (5 to 10) per player; so the trainings are cut into bite-size lumps. It's no use playing too many turns as the game will be changed too dramaticcaly for the trainees to learn anything. With 5 to 10 turns there is a difference in the game, but not too big a difference to become not understandable.

So: it's better in a training game to play around 5 upto 10 turns (max) and take your time between plays to discuss what happened. ;)

So: it's better in a training game to play around 5 upto 10 turns (max) and take your time between plays to discuss what happened. ;)
Choxorn, Would you want a new surgeon operating on you and having his instructor telling him what he did wrong after closing up the incision? :eek:

Training games move much more slowly than other types, but what you learn will enable you to make faster, better decisions on your own in future games. The object here is not to finish the game quickly or to get to your favorite era (cavs or railroads maybe?). The idea is to learn to make sound decisions in the early game which will affect how well the rest of the game plays out.

If I may be so bold, I'd like to add a little perspective to this "Training Game Spamfest".

If you surf back a bit (or sort the SGs by post count or read-count) you'll find "GK2 - The Training Day Experiment". I was fortunate enough to be one of the original students in that game. Rik remembers me as I was then... a hopeless, Regent level builder. ('twas true, I swear.)

In that game I learned a lot from my instructors. I also learned that you can learn a LOT about this game by playing SGs.... even if the game isn't a "Training" Game.

This is not about "instructors teaching". It's about "students learning". And "learning how to learn". Which is much more powerful than the initial knowledge gained in the initial learning.

One of the ways SGs improve your game is that you get to see the insights of other players. One player will see something another doesn't. And you benefit most from this if you take frequent breaks to examine (and re-examine) the game. As a team, you will see opportunities you might have otherwise missed.

If you dig up Bede's Celtic spaceshot game you will see Bede and me playing off each others' strengths... often to great effect. Bede engineered a Monarchy beeline that was very powerful for us. You'll see me pull of a rather audacious invasion that had the good monk a little nervous. You'll also see poor harriet in the mix... trying desperately to hand off a well-managed empire to that master micro-manager... all the while trying to slug her way through the tactical problems she inherited from me...

...and you'll see how we all benefitted from the perspective of others.

...and that shared perspective is stronger when it is checked frequently; by playing 10-turn turnsets.

That's my $0.02.

All I can add to the sage advice above is that it's quite mistaken to think that not much happens in those early AA turns. Quite a lot happens, acutally. I'd advise 5 turn sets with lots of discussion, if you really want max benefit.

If you surf back a bit (or sort the SGs by post count or read-count) you'll find "GK2 - The Training Day Experiment". I was fortunate enough to be one of the original students in that game. Rik remembers me as I was then... a hopeless, Regent level builder. ('twas true, I swear.)
What Scout is too modest to mention is that he began as a Regent-level trainee and, before the game was over, he became one of the trainers. I learned a lot from reading that thread over a year ago. Here's the link. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=81351&pp=40

If you dig up Bede's Celtic spaceshot game you will see Bede and me playing off each others' strengths... often to great effect. Bede engineered a Monarchy beeline that was very powerful for us. You'll see me pull of a rather audacious invasion that had the good monk a little nervous. You'll also see poor harriet in the mix... trying desperately to hand off a well-managed empire to that master micro-manager... all the while trying to slug her way through the tactical problems she inherited from me...

...and you'll see how we all benefitted from the perspective of others.

...and that shared perspective is stronger when it is checked frequently; by playing 10-turn turnsets.
I was the only trainee in this DemiGod game, barely being a Monarch player at that time. If you read it, you'll see my endless questions and some very useful answers. I'd sometimes stop after only 3 or 4 turns to ask questions. Here's the link. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140887

[delurk]Choxorn, Would you want a new surgeon operating on you and having his instructor telling him what he did wrong after closing up the incision? :eek:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well, maybe I'll just play this turnset 21 (to make up for Buce's incompetence :lol: ). I can't mess up too badly :crazyeye: , and 11 turns will probably be boring at this point in the game.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well, maybe I'll just play this turnset 21 (to make up for Buce's incompetence :lol: ). I can't mess up too badly :crazyeye: , and 11 turns will probably be boring at this point in the game.
Choxorn do not do the rolleyes thing. That's really not cool. You are not endearing yourself to anyone by doing that.
I can't mess up too badly :crazyeye: , and 11 turns will probably be boring at this point in the game.
As far as the turns go, do what you will Choxorn. I will not evaluate the turns so if someone else wants to do it that's fine. I'm disappointed you aren't understanding what's needed to help improve your skills but I suppose that's too boring. Honestly I'm not sure why 10 turns isn't already done since you've been up for days.

I think and I'm very sure that choxorn don't want anymore training SG , he wants to play a real SG . I think he should'nt even open this one , or at least name it withouth "training".
because people like Whomp came to help with improving our skills , but choxorn don't want it anymore .

Choxorn , I advice you to open a new one thread with SG game , not training !
but leave this one maybe there are some who wants to improve his skills :)

*open the new SG with finished Variant , without any voting for details, etc.

I would encourage you all to proceed. Up until now there has been a lot of beneficial advice and discussion here. But I am not the boss, just a monkey hanging out in the kitchen making snacks.

@Whomp: I was waiting for the arguing over turnsets to stop. I've decided on 11, but 21 if nothing happens. I'll play now. Oh, and I was hoping the rolleyes thingy would annoy gmaharriet...

Oh, and I think i'll get a line-up:
Choxorn: up
cody the genius: on deck
jclast
kill fire
Bucephalus: nice start!
goodsmell

@Whomp: I was waiting for the arguing over turnsets to stop. I've decided on 11, but 21 if nothing happens. I'll play now. Oh, and I was hoping the rolleyes thingy would annoy gmaharriet...
Well you've accomplished your mission Choxorn. You've fully annoyed me.

Count me out of this one Choxorn. I have zero interest in training you (sorry to all the other players). There are plenty of players much better than I so maybe they'll step up and fill the role. Adios.

I think I'm out, too. This game seems to have moved from training and learning to nothing at all.

@Whomp: I was waiting for the arguing over turnsets to stop. I've decided on 11, but 21 if nothing happens. I'll play now. Oh, and I was hoping the rolleyes thingy would annoy gmaharriet...

Does the phrase "when you're in a hole - stop digging" mean anything to you?

A blind man could see the respect gmaharriet enjoys in these forums. And you have alienated our mentor. I too withdraw.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand" - Abraham Lincoln.

Looks like this house is pretty divided.

Sorry, but I'm out.

Okay, just forget it. This game has died. I guess I can try again later now that I know how things work in training games. This game is over.

You could ask before you had created this one ;) but nevermind .

I have no idea what that means. ;)
P.S. Is anybody interested in seeing how I played that last turnset (which, BTW, was 11 turns :))?

What he was saying is that you started a training game, but needed to get an understanding of what that type of game was meant to be and could have asked or looked at some of the better ones.

Otherwise just play a non training SG as it hurts the trainees if they are not allowed to learn. Dropping 20 turns at any stage of a training game is not going to be very helpful to trainees.

It is best to actually show as much detail as you can stand to write and to give an explaination of events and thinking. Worker moves are one of the important aspect for new players to learn as well as city placement and builds and timing of builds.

If someone drops 20 turns with mostly ZZZ's, what is imparted? Now you had someone that was willing to under take the task, but he was ignored often and finally run off.

Even if you totally disagreed, you are not doing yourself or the others any favors, but not trying to be a team player, hence no one is left.

I guess I'll just try again later and make it an actual training game.

It's rather clear that you don't know how a teaching gane works and, if you try to set one up, you won't get any teachers.

Let me give you a bit of friendly advice: try a normal succession game instead. You might have a chance with that.

@choxorn: This game only got to 3100 BC, so a lot of the game is left to be playe. You may want to consider this. Play the game on your own, but play it as a SG, posting saves and turn logs as you go. This involves a lot of work, but by playing the game in groups of 10 or even 20 turns, you begin to plan your turns and work a little bit better than before. I've got a game like this in Stories and Tales; it might serve as a guide.

@abgweit: Yeah, maybe just a normal succesion game. If I want a training game, I'll join someone else's.
@commando: I'll check that game out and see if I want to do something like that.

well this kinda sucked