This game will involve a custom-made map and a custom civ.

Civilization: Vikings
Traits: Militaristic, Religious
Starting Techs: Alphabet, Pottery, Writing
Unique Unit: War Galley
Color: Blue
Capital: Trondheim (city list taken right out of Civ2).

Map: Large, hand drawn (by Sirian)
Opponents: 11
Landform: Archipelago
Climate: Cold, Dry
Barbarians: Restless
Victory Conditions: Space Race or Conquest, all else disabled.
Difficulty Level: up to the players, either Monarch or Emperor.

Turn length: 10 turns. (First player plays 30, second plays 20, then 10 apiece for everybody from there on).

Obviously, since I've drawn the map and tailored the scenerio, I will not be participating as a player in this game. There will be five to seven roster spots, and the game will not begin until there are enough players and the group has agreed on the difficulty level. I will upload a save file from 4000BC and it will go from there.

The War Galley is a beefed up galley, coming available at Mapmaking and capable of starting the Viking Golden Age. It has attack value of 2, standard defense of 1, can carry up to three units, costs and moves the same as a standard galley, and is advanced enough to conduct bombardment missions: the bombardment attacks are quite weak and often produce no results, but just having the option at all, and with the attack bonus, this unit will command the seas in the ancient era and remain useful through the middle ages. So the game is tailored to feature this unit, and will emphasize naval action in general.


Ozymandous and Jester are RBD crew who missed out on all the early games, so they have reserved spots in this game if they want them, and I'd like Charis to give it a shot if he's willing, since it would seem odd to have BOTH of us absent from the roster. :)

Participation open to anybody interested. If the scenerio sounds appealing, you've been following other RBD games, you think you can handle the challenge, and you can be ready to play within two weeks, possibly less, sign up.


If anybody has questions about the civ, map, or scenerio, I won't give out any spoilers but feel free to ask whatever's on your mind.

I plan to spectate quietly and probably also post some extra screenshots from the save files.


- Sirian

I am definately interested in this game and my only preference on difficulty is that it is regent or above. Also, my user name should probably hint at my interest in this game :viking:

I would love to play a Viking game. I haven't played in an SG yet, but I hae been reading several of the threads, and was looking for a good one to come along, and this looks like it! The Vikings were always one of my favorite civs in CivII. Are there any other changes to the rules, or is this a normal game?

My self-imposed moratorium on new SGs (until the ones I'm in are finished) is still in effect. Good luck guys, I'll probably fetch the 4000 save and play it solo, and avoid this thread until I've either given up or beaten it. Given that it has the Sirian Stamp of Approval, what I can't do is just ignore it ;) .

A Viking game! Hooray!

Sign up the Viking Fox the Grey!

I'm in.

Monarch difficulty is my usual, but I wouldn't object to Emperor, is everyone wants to.

Jester

:hammer: <--- Need I say anything more??

Charis


PS Ok, can't escape with words that few... This sounds really interesting, and I can't not jump at this, looks like a good idea and good job, Sirian. Mil and religious? Great combo for what they'll be having to do, with quick rax, harbors, temples... Three starting techs? Potent. Diff level? 70/30 leaning toward emperor, but looking at the requests by others, Monarch is likely best (although I'm guessing victory will not be overly difficult on that diff) Opponents? All random? Some new tribes? Will we get to face the English Man O' War?

PPS Given requests in other threads, I can see about two more rbd SG games popping up within the next two weeks. Especially if we get several 'influx' players requesting to join in :goodjob: For me the player's skill level is not as important as their committment/reliability, so any lurkers out there should not let inexperience stop them. That said, if response here is more than slots, don't worry, another game will surely start soon.

Not a true poll, but just wanted to get feedback from rbd folks and/or others who have shown recent interest, on what games to be targetting as next (rbd9, 10) Several good ideas have surfaced for possible 'next games', so I wanted so summarize a few that I could find from our game threads, and add a few more.

If you could, please respond with: x, y z sound good (or 'nn won't work because...')

1. Globocop. Simple premise - make sure no civ ever gets wiped out.
Chinese (patch 1.17 should help early/good/fast Riders, due to upgrading)
Large map, 12 civs. (There is an initial element of luck in that two civs
might start out in civil war against each other before you even meet them.
But I think it will take a LOT of skill not to just conquer, but to work
the AI's so much that none get eaten up)

2. Army game. (Jaffa showed interest here, and I like) Along the splendid
lines of the Infantry and Artillery games, only the "Army" unit may be
used for offensive attacks to take a city. Mil civ, focus on getting an
early GL, Epic, Mil Tradition, etc. With new 1.17 army-can-blitz rule,
should rock.

2B. Air Force game. Babs or Americans. Main 'offensive' units are the archer
(bowmen), longbow, all artillery units, missiles, nukes, all planes and
paratroopers. Pretty much all expansion would be ancient and middle ages,
since longbowmen is last unit until paratrooper that can take a city.
Wars are wars of attrition, pounding the heck out of enemies without
capturing their cities per se. (Recapture allowed) Carriers would be key.

3. Ignoranti, Clueless Newbies, Dark Ages, however you call it. Zero percent
science, must win by Space Race. How far can you go with a lone scientist,
the Great Library, Trading, Tribue and Espionage? Have several 'sci' civs
in the game. My MOST recent games suggest this won't be nearly as bad as
it sounds at first. (Arathorn showed interest in this one)

3B. Cretans. No culture (the palace is IT). No temples, libraries, culture
wonders. Push the limit and see what kind of impact near zero culture would
have for attitude, flipping, reversion. Crete=Greece? (Sirian suggested
this iirc, as a followup to a Dark Ages proposal) Your city radius will
ONLY be 9 total squares except for your capitol.

4. Five city challenge. Build five cities. Be first to Alpha Centauri.

5. Swiss game - neutral folks, no whipping, razing, bombarding. French, Greek
or Roman as actual civ, with mil opponents.

6. Opium Barons. Trade and luxury focus, no religious happiness wonders
(ie colliseums ok, no temples, cathedrals or related wonders)
Control the masses with luxuries. Overarching goal is to have as many
luxuries for your cities as you possibly can. Perhaps India as 'Thailand'

7. Capitolists. (Yes, that's spelled right) A definite anti-blitz game. The
ONLY cities which may be taken are capitols (and no razing of other ones).
Penetrate, capture, garrison vs flip, and hold. (Actually extend from capitols
to also include any city with a wonder) For added spice, you can't build
wonders, only capture. This has a xCC flavor in that once initial expansion
is done, you won't be getting many new cities (hmmm... capitol hopping would
be an issue) Victory: space race, with ship components only built in
ex-foreign capitols :P

8. Methodists. (No, not the denomination) A peculiar methodical civilization
which thinks some things are just done best in a certain order. Rather than
wait 3500 years to build the FP, why not make it right away? Well, you need
a certain minimum number before you can build it, but basically the last
city that causes this message to fire is the one you want for your Forbidden
Palace, and you start it right away. Max civ size is the 'optimal' size,
which is double the size where you can build the FP. (8 city/16 on std map)

Note, some of these 'combine' fairly well, like 5CC with Swiss for a 'leave me
alone!' attitude, or a 5CC+original-foe-capitols game.

Charis

-- We now return this thread to its regularly scheduled programming! :P

Justus: the game will use the default rules from the new patch, with the exception of the Viking civ itself, the draft penalty (we'll go with the 20 turns of the last patch for that), and the moving resources. Last I checked neither oil nor coal had legs, so what is it doing walking to the other side of the planet? :) The resources will stay where I put them. Whether that will be a good thing for the team or not, remains to be seen. ;)

Thiazi, Justus, Grey Fox, Jester, Charis, Ozy (probable). That leaves at most one more slot. Wow, I didn't expect it to fill up this quickly! I better hurry and finish the map!

:hammer: :viking: :fish: :arrow:


- Sirian

I'm not playing, but I have been reading past SGs with you guys. Just by reading I have learned A LOT more about the game. Good luck! I just may want to join you on the next one ;)

I would like to give it a shot :)

Charis,

I'm up for anything, but as I'm sure you recall I prefer games where the map is relatively small, as I tend to prefer short turns...

Of course I've already expressed interest in 5CC and Swiss but others are fine too. I'm with CC in waiting until some of our current ones are done before jumping in more, however.

I don't think the RBD crew has ever played on a Tiny map. Wonder what would make for a good game on that? Maybe Ignoranti -- it would make it much harder if the AI civs could research stuff really fast and there were fewer civs to trade with and extort cash for tech from.

Ohh, I finally get a shot to join one of these games. :)

Umm, er, haven't played much beyond Regent level and judging from how I attempted to play the "Isolationists" game vs. Sirian and Charis I still have a lot to learn, but I am willing to try hard. :)

Count me in (preferrably after someone who has a better clue or two? lol).

Ok, also a few comments to the "poll" posted by Charis. For anyone interested I am only adding the comments I made from notes about the individual suggestions. Some of these comments may sound strange without reviewing the initial suggestion, but I think this will be long enough without quoting each idea again, so here goes.

1. Interesting idea, seems like the "human wall" defense theory for other civ's and constant ROP would be vital to making this work.

2. Sweet, sounds good to me.

2b. Hmm, I don't recall when air power alone ever won a war, but I guess that's what the paratroopers are for.. ;) Possible tweaking of the drop range might be needed for this game, and I assume that modern combat would be a sure thing if only to race to get to the stealth aircraft needed to bypass the SAM improvement.

3. Interesting. This game would good for those (like me) who always try to get and hold a science lead. Might strengthen skills of how to "do without those favorite units before everyone else gets them" aspects of the game. What about wonders who have the "Scientific" and another trait "flag" on them? Would any wonder that was flagged as Scientific be a no-no even if it was also militaristic, commercial or religious?

3b. 9 Squares? Ouch. Can people in the city still work outside this border? If not then this would be an ICS style players dream scenario. The group playing this game would have to decide how they wanted to handle the corruption issues raised by having too many cities, assuming cities are placed 3 tiles apart. Also curious about the wonder deal with this version. Since all wonders produce culture would this be a wonder-less game?

4. Sounds like a slightly larger OOC game. Maybe a modification that the civ can never fight outside it's borders and the game might be interesting. Not to say they can't roam around and explore, but not attack outside the borders (explorers and undefended transports would be used for this I assume, might make the explorer unit actually worth something!.

5. Add a rule against "offensive" attacks and stipulate that the players civ must give the AI breaks for everything in trade and could be challenging.

"What, you want to end the war and have peace and give me stuff? Nah, no thanks on the goodies, I will end the war however."

Disable all victory conditions except diplomatic and then NOT build the UN and this game would be killer. Not sure how iffy the game would be trying to get a Diplomatic victory without the UN would be tho'.

6. Hmm, drug dealers eh? :lol: Just make sure to pick a "commercial" civ as the broker for the trade bonus (and to simulate the distribution network).

7. As mentioned in the initial suggestion what happens when the capitol moves? Maybe a stipulation that you can never capture more than the capitol and any wonder cities the Civ has in any given war and the players MUST honor the 20 turn peace rule before attacking again. Another rule that the no other civ can be attacked offensively (even if they start it) until all other capitols have been taken would make this a conquest/domination players dream.

8. Sounds sort of "standard". Any other rules/limits to impose?

Wow. This game filled up already? Put me on the reserve list if a spot opens up -- I'd like to try a game with a strong naval focus.

I was just thinking it might be good to start off one or two new games now, playing at lower priority through the quicker early years while the current batch are finishing off.

Would there sufficient interest if I were to start off a 5CC game (#4) this weekend? Emperor diff, and I'd be disabling culture and diplo victories, which seem to be the normal win conditions for OOC games. And I'm not going to keep restarting until I find a river :)

Of the others listed, I'd be most interested in #2 (obviously), 2B, 3B, 6 or 7.

--
Jaffa

Well, if you start the 5CC, I will join, since that's one I wanted to participate in... again I will only be able to play on weekends, but since you're already stipulating that it would have lower priority, that shouldn't pose a problem. However, I'd still prefer to wait until one of the other games wraps up.

Comments to several posts here...

Jaffa, I'm up for a 5CC asap, and an army one soon perhaps. Emperor sounds great. What were you thinking for civ? (Romans and Egyptians come to mind or is Swiss intent, French) Anything not expansionist would work ok. The nice thing about 5CC type games, the turns are *much* shorter than regular games. Micromanagement is crucial, BUT takes far far less time with only five cities. Placement is also crucial.

Ozy: Methodists sound standard? Have you ever built the FP in your eight city and started it the minute it was founded??? Picked it to be the 'right' distance away? Beeline settler, settler, settler to get your eight cities asap? Cap the civ at 16 cities to minimize corruption? I've never done anything like this but we keep wondering what an 'optimal # cities' game would look like (it was a big topic of discussion in rbd5 game) I have some thoughts for other restrictions that would hold after the expansion phase, but need to chew on those a little more. The key point of this game is in fact, "How well do you do running at optimal #cities for map size?"

For the Army game, Roman Legionaires, Russian Czars with Communist focus, or Zulu Impirialists come to mind. For globocop I'm thinking China. Ignoranti Zulu. Iroquiois (Spanish?) Methodists.

Charis

I'd be interested in playing either ignoranti, Swiss, or trade barons.

I've been lurking around SGs for a while and would LOVE to try my hand at one.

As far as variants go, in ideas for future RBD games, there are two I have been working on that I haven't talked about as yet:

:yinyang: Environmentalists: Our civ refuses to make ANY use of fossil fuels. No coal or oil shall ever be connected to our trade network. (Pillage the squares when they turn up at the applicable times. If one turns up under a city, someone would be designated to go into the editor and move it to another square nearby, which could be pillaged.) Lack of coal/oil takes the following things off the table: Railroads, Coal Plants, all modern ships starting with Ironclads (AEGIS Cruisers available, heh, if the game lasted that long), all planes, all motorized units, and any trade involving these resources. Our civ would also be forbidden to build nuclear plants or to use nuclear weapons. All victory conditions on the table except for diplomatic. Large Pangaea map. We would probably play this one as the Egyptians, or perhaps a custom civ.


:D Communicators: Our civ places the highest priority on communication technology. We are required to beeline our own research at the fastest possible rate straight to the communication technologies in each era: Philosophy (in the ancient era), Printing Press THEN Free Artistry (in middle ages), Radio (industrial age), then Sattelites (modern age). ALL victory conditions on the table, but WE must win through diplomacy.

We are allowed to trade techs with other civs, but may not make any side trips in our own research until our Priority techs in each era have been researched. We must buy Communications with other races at the earliest opportunity (as soon as we can afford it) and must also sell Communications at the earliest opportunity. We are also obligated to trade maps with each known civ at least once on each player's turn. Having to win through diplomacy, yet not being able to research Fission until Sattelites have been learned, would really put the pressure on in the modern era. We would play this one as the Russians. Continents map, standard size.


- Sirian

Originally posted by Charis
Jaffa, I'm up for a 5CC asap, and an army one soon perhaps. Emperor sounds great. What were you thinking for civ? (Romans and Egyptians come to mind or is Swiss intent, French) Anything not expansionist would work ok. The nice thing about 5CC type games, the turns are *much* shorter than regular games. Micromanagement is crucial, BUT takes far far less time with only five cities. Placement is also crucial.

Actually, why not expansionist? The free scout would be really useful for quickly finding our five optimum city locations.

Hmmm. Going for a space race win, so scientific would be good. Expansionist+Scientific is the Russians?

(One day, this thread might actually contain some Viking stuff :) )

EDIT: and for the army game I was thinking the Romans, who are militaristic (which is pretty much essential for a good chance of getting an early GL), and have the right vibe :D

--
Jaffa

Guys,

I would *LOVE* to have time to participate in a 5CC or a no-culture or (another) Ignoranti game. The problem is my schedule. I rarely play more than an hour or two every couple days or so. (I tell you, having a job, a wife, a toddler, one on the way, and church gets in the way of a fella getting to do what's really important in life!) [I post/read at work, as compiles of 50000+ lines of code takes a while.]

I certainly can't be counted on to keep up with any regularly-scheduled game. If the rules were more flexible (six/seven players, two others have to play between consecutive plays by one person, etc.), I might be able to squeeze it in. But such games seem to play quite a bit more slowly than you do.

I don't have the history with you guys to really do a "call it and jump in", like ? -- names escape me, Zed? ?? does.

I'll keep my eye out for more openings, though. And I'm glad I'm not completely anonymous....

Arathorn

Charis: Ok, ok, I admit I didn't give the last idea as much thought as I probably should have. Hmm, I was thinking "build FP when get eight cities, that's not unusual", but it clicked when you said the 8th city MUST build FP.

Might be interesting. Would depend on the other rules, such as "what happens when you capture a city? Can you capture a city or have to raze all others?

I assume once the "optimum" number of cities was reached then the Civ would always turn down culture flips, etc?

All these sound like good reading material if nothing else. :D

Sorry to interrupt the Discussion but how about staring a thread about RBD ideas?

EDIT: I'll start a thread right away!

A new thread for RBD SG ideas (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=196339&t=22#post196339)

Drat, posting too late to get in on this game. :(

A lot of those suggestions for future SG's sound really interesting to me, especially the Globocop, Communicator, Ignoranti, and Cretan (is that referring to the Isle of Crete or the insult, cretin?)games. I imagine the Cretan game would have a lot of culture flips to the opponents, so that would make capturing cities impossible. Also, we better hope that we start on an island because if we border an opponent, a lot of our border cities could start flipping. By the way, we wouldn't be limited to only 9 squares because if you build your cities close enough together, the game extends the cultural borders automatically.

One idea for a game that I mentioned on the builders' thread was not up here, and is something that I would definitely be interested in. The game's premise is similar to that of the Swiss game in that no offensive warfare is allowed up to the modern era. However, in the modern era, anything goes (actually, I'm thinking of modifying this to having offensive warfare only being waged with modern units to insure that we don't just conquer the world with tanks). This game was inspired because most of my games are decided in the early industrial age, so I have not seen full-scale modern warfare. To insure that there will be warfare in the modern era, all victory conditions except domination and conquest will be disabled. SDI could be key to prevent nuclear strikes. I'm thinking of making the civilization the Greeks to make defending from ancient attacks easy, but this could be subject to change.

A new thread for RBD SG ideas (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=196339&t=22#post196339)

:Viking: Let's keep this thread for the Viking Game! :) :viking:

The glorious Viking civilization is born as the ancestors receive word from the gods that they must settle down and begin to train for the final battle at Ragnarok.

Odin has declared that the Viking people must either prepare the way by conquering the entire world, or must build a great airship to travel amongst the heavens like gods themselves, to cross the Rainbow Bridge and arrive in Asgard (aka Alpha Centauri).


Version 1.17f only.

24 hours to post results, or else to post "Got It" with up to another 24 to play.

No reloads. (Autosave is back in action to recover from crashes, power outage, etc, so you may use it for that purpose).

10 turns apiece, with the first two players in round one taking extra turns.


VIKING ROSTER:

Jester
Thiazi
Justus II
Charis
Grey Fox
Ozymandous
shdwlord

Altnerate: Jaffa Tamarin


Jester will play until 2550BC.
Thiazi will play until 1750BC.
After that, each player will take 10 turns. (You may play less).
1500BC, 1250BC, 1000BC, 750BC, 550BC, 350BC, 150BC, 50AD, 250AD, etc.

Remember, this will be an archipelago map. I'm waiting to hear final word from the group as to whether you want to play on Monarch or Emperor difficulty.

BEHOLD your homeland! Such lands might make mere mortals tremble, but embolden the hearts of all true Vikings!

:viking: :king: :viking:

I don't have that much experience with Emperor level, but given that it is an island map, and the AI seems to have trouble with naval movement, I think that Emperor should be challenging enough to offset that. At least it looks like we have some carribou to hunt on our tundra!!:king:

My vote is that we play Emperor Difficulty.


Vi Vikingar ska plundra och härja, vi ska erövra hela denna vackra värld för asagudarnas skull. För Odin, Tor, Loke, Balder, Tyr, Heimdal, Frej, Freja, Njord, Skade, Vidar, Höder, Brage, Idun och Ulls skull!

Emperor is fine, slight preference that way. (Monarch wouldn't be a problem either.)

Starting position looks great.

Charis

I have never played on emperor level, but either would be fine with me. I am just hoping that Sirian reviews the game, and doesn't put on the kiddie gloves when reviewing my turns ;) Any advice and/or pointing out of mistakes would be more than welcome

I'm not sure on a few points (haven't messed around with rules or custom civs so I'm not sure how this goes):

Is the opening turn save a scenario file or a game save (is there a difference?) ? Would there need to be seperate files posted for a Monarch and an Emperor start? For my spectating, I'd play at Monarch if I could, my attention span is too short for solo Emperor play.

Oh, and Grey Fox, what's the translation of that Swedish? I personally only know one Swedish phrase: "Skittgubbe, du luktar som en gette." or however you spell it. Admittedly, it's not the most useful Swedish phrase I could know, so I never made it a point to get the proper spelling down, nor bother to remember which accents went where.

That's what I call cold. This starting location looks... interesting. Let's hope we can find a nice place for a FP-using wonder-pumping machine, because our first city doesn't look up to the task. It will, however, be nice for settlers early on, because of AMPLE food.

I just hope everyone gets the shaft as nicely as we do. But then, sirian wouldn't be THAT nice to us. :lol:

Okay, emperor it is! And may whatever god we believe in have mercy on our souls! The Hammer of Thor awaits! :hammer:

Carbon: You're right, there are two separate deals with a custom scenerio: there's the "bic" file, containing altered rules and/or a custom map, then there's the savegame.

The editor still does not allow you to designate which start location you want the player to appear at, so if I offered the scenerio file, chances are a pathetic one in twelve that you'd be able to start the map in the correct location. There is a utility available that will allow me to alter a savegame to place the player's units where they need to go, and swap them with the AI units from that location. That's why I'll be posting a save file from 4000BC, rather than the scenerio file. I'll think it over about whether to offer you a Monarch version, depends on how much hassle it turns out to be for me to take all the necessary steps.

One thing I might do, though, is post a file with the rules set for these Vikings, which would allow players to start their own random maps, and play as or against the Vikings. I'll think about it.


- Sirian

Originally posted by Grey Fox

Vi Vikingar ska plundra och härja, vi ska erövra hela denna vackra värld för asagudarnas skull. För Odin, Tor, Loke, Balder, Tyr, Heimdal, Frej, Freja, Njord, Skade, Vidar, Höder, Brage, Idun och Ulls skull!
Translation:
We Vikings shall plunder and ravage (or wreak havoc?), we shall conquer this beutiful world for the sake of the asa-Gods (?). For Odin, Thor, (and all the other God names) sake!

Could be fun with 2 special units (A Viking or Berzerker)... but would make it a lot of extra work (Greeks should have a better Sentry weapon then Catapults, and so on...)

Well I can say that our mead/ale/beer looks like it will stay nice and cold with that starting position.. :p

Hmm, assuming that is where we start would it be best to found right there or move one tile in another direction?

Anyone? Anyone?

Oh, and what is the map size? Or is that another thing we will discover as we play? I know archipelago (sp?) but size might help some as well....

You would really be hard pressed to find a better place to found than your initial location. You have 5 (6?) special food resource tiles, *FRESH WATER*, and a coastal location. Also some forest and a hill in radius for shields. It may not be your top producer of goods, but it will be a great settler source, and a decent bet to snag a very early wonder, and the Great Lighthouse. Unlike other games, the Lighthouse is our biggest 'must have'. We start with Alphabet, Pottery and Writing. (Do all civs start with 3 techs?)
Our attributes are Mil and Relig.

Wow, we *start* with all prereq for mapmaking. It will be an unprecedentedly early start getting off our homeworld. In fact, with those techs, I wouldn't be surprised at all if what we saw was all we got, a tiny tiny island that FORCES us off. And the first civ we find better brace itself, cuz the second ship will be carrying
weapons of war :hammer:

If we really are on a ultra-tiny island, we may end up with each of those fish/game feeding one city until they get their harbor, all just a few squares away from the capitol at the starting spot.

As for Golden Age, I don't think the Great Lighthouse will set it off for us. Neither will our galley for sometime - killing barbarians doesn't count as a GA-inducing win (at least it did NOT for the earliest bowmen in rbd7).

Hmm, we even have the starting tech to go for Literature (after Map Making) and go for Great Library. That would let us go zero science and focus on ship, city and unit build up.

Alas, what units? IF we had iron, bronze and iron working would be all we need, and go for a Swordsmen conquest. Hosed if no iron. If emperor diff, we'll need Ceremonial Burial and Temples much earlier than otherwise needed, especially given the food we have at the start and our religious nature. We can build them, barracks and harbors cheaply.

If no Iron but horses, Wheel, Warrior Code and Horseback riding is the way to the best offense. Sigh, so much for no science :P
We'll need Bronze, Iron, Wheel, Ceremonial Burial in addition to Map Making and Literature as bare minimums. Then either Iron or Horseback before we could consider shutting science down. That and two wonders to build, ouch.

This is going to be a fun start. I hope Jester, Thiazi and Justus consider the opening a strong part of their game - go get 'em guys! :hammer:

Charis

Charis,

Good evaluation, I think Great Lighthouse will be very useful on this map, and if I remember right, it is cheaper in 1.17 also. I think mapmaking should be our first priority, in keeping with the viking theme, and also to establish contact with other civs early. A good map can be worth gold or even techs early. If we find a luxury early, we can postpone Ceremonial Burial, expanding our culture will not be as important on an island map, as long as we can deal with the unhappiness. Although Temples are cheaper for us. A lot will be based on when we find our nearest enemies, we may be able to crush one or two before they get off of their islands! So exploration (ships) will be critical.

Alll I can say is I am glad I am going after Charis. :D

Hmm, should be fun, although I wonder how behind the eight-ball Sirian may place us, since he's editing the map...

Any bets that the island is dinky like Charis mentioned and there won't be any Iron OR horses anywhere close to us?? Heh, either that or we'll be surrounded by ocean and even having the G. Lighthouse won't help much...

Of course, the islands could all be linked with ours as the smallest and us having to fight progressivly bigger opponents as we go, that would also be interesting. Just have to wait on the game now.. :)

One question.. Having never tinkered with the editor, will we need to load anything different than the modified scenario file to play or not?

One thing about Emperor difficulty: you only get ONE content citizen. This means you need a happiness factor in place at size 2! This can be a unit on garrison, a temple, a road to a luxury, or to be running some of the budget on luxuries. This requires a lot more attention for an efficient start.

For example, the home square will provide two food, one shield and one trade. The fish in the lake will provide three food (four post-despotism, but three to start) and two trade. The game to its northwest would provide two food and two shields. So... if you start on the fish, you get 3 food per turn and 3 trade, but only 1 shield. If you go to the game, you get 2 food per turn, 3 shields, and 1 trade.

If you use the fish nonstop, the city will grow in 7 turns, and have only 9 shields progress toward a warrior. (1+1+1+1+1+1 on the first six turns, then 3 on the seventh turn because Civ3 processes food before shields, and you get credit toward shields for the extra population as the city grows, and it would automatically choose the game as the second tile). You get to size 2 before the unit is built and then end up in riots unless you increase the luxury slider to get a happy face going -- or much worse, turn your second citizen into an entertainer.

On the other hand, if you start on the game and leave it there, you build three shields per turn, in four turns you have a warrior, but you've wasted 2 shields and are still six turns away from growing to size 2.

So there are two ways to handle this.

1) You put the citizen on the game for three turns, build up nine shields, then swap to the fish for one turn. You could then swap back and forth as you please.

2) You put the citizen on the game for one turn, right away, then move to the fish and leave it there. You complete the warrior and grow to size 2 on the same turn, like this: 3+1+1+1+1+1 on first six turns, then (leaving it on the fish, you get the game shields automatically on the growth turn) you get 3 on the last turn, for a total of 11 and the warrior is produced. Then, running both the fish and game, you would grow again in 7 turns, and running 3 shields per turn, could play the farmer's gambit with the earliest possible settler. You might have to pay for some luxuries, though, to prevent riots at size 3 for one turn. That would get you the settler faster than building a second warrior first, though. You could even shave a turn off the settler production, as you would get a second game forest tile online for "free" on turn growing to size 3, then swap off the fish to another forest tile, to produce the last 7 shields needed on one turn. 16 total turns to produce a settler this way -- specific to what you can see in this start location. (Different land would require a different approach).

Now if there were TWO 3-food tiles within range, it would not automatically select the game tile next. Just that of the 2-food tiles, Civ3 clearly understands that a tile with 2 shields beats a tile with 1 or 0 shields, all other things being equal. So it's guaranteed to pick the game next if you're running the lake fish. If there was also a wheat grassland in range, it would pick that. Predicting what Civ 3 will autoselect for the new citizen can help you squeeze some "free" shields out of micromanagement, and you learn how to do it right through trial and error. You have to practice to figure it out, and it helps out the most in the early game, where a couple turns difference can literally put you ahead by a couple of turns. Think about the end game, and how much a turn makes. Every turn saved on your growth curve matters.


And that's just about going to be the limit of my advice. I won't be able to critique anybody's turn results until you guys have explored the entire world map, as I don't see any way I could prevent foreknowledge of the map and scenerio from tainting what I would say.


- Sirian


Ozy: Yes, there will be a few extra files you will need: unit info for the war galley. They won't overwrite any existing files and won't get in the way of anything. I'll post complete instructions.

We could switch between the FISH and the Forest so that we will get our First Warrior EXACTLY or Before the City expands, then build a new Warrior to explore or Build a Settler or a WAR GALLEY, but I don't know how fast we will get Map Making.

We should also try to get the Great Lighthouse, the cheapest ticket to the Middle Age, unbeatable to get.

Recently I got the Pyramids and the G.Lib in my Capital on a Large Emperor map, I could have gotten the Great Wall but I did not want to build it... it would have triggered my G.Age, 'cus I'm playing chinese...

Anyway, I don't know if we should rely on having Iron or horses on the Island, we should try to go for an Archer/Spearmen Strategy instead. (Should be Axeman/Swordman...)

Um... OOPS. Maybe I should go back to elementary school. :o I miscounted the start positions, so instead of eleven opponents, there are going to be twelve, making for a baker's dozen of civs in this game. (That's one more than a standard large map allows, but don't worry, they're not packed in like sardines).

I've tested the map and it's not crashing. I've got all the civs in their correct starting locations, and the Zulus got added as the extra civ. I am about to post the save file, but before any of you can play, you have to install the support files for the War Galley unique Viking unit.

The ZIP file for the War Galley exceeds 700k, which is too large to attach to this forum. Rather than break it into pieces, I've uploaded it to my own Civ3 site. You will have to download it from there, but I will provide a link below.


IN ORDER TO PLAY SIRIAN'S VIKING SCENERIO, YOU MUST INSTALL THE FILES TO SUPPORT THE WAR GALLEY UNIT.

INSTRUCTIONS:

1) CLICK HERE (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/wargalley.zip) to download the War Galley zip file.

2) Open up Windows Explorer, locate your Civ III directory, open up the Art\units folder, and create a new subdirectory (folder) UNDER CivIII\Art\units. You must name this new folder War Galley -- not sure if the capitalization matters, but there has to be a space between the two words (I think the folder name must exactly match the name of the unit).

3) Extract the contents of the wargalley.zip to CivIII\Art\units\War Galley\*.*

That's it, you are now set up for some brutal ancient naval action. :viking:


FOR THOSE NOT PARTICIPATING IN THIS SUCCESSION GAME:

If you wish to try your hand at the Viking scenerio, I've generated a savegame for each difficulty level. Choose the level(s) of your choice from the list below, which will download the files from my Civ3 page. PLEASE NO SPOILERS to be posted to this thread. If you have questions, problems, or comments, email them directly to me, please. Thank you.

CHIEFTAIN (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-chieftain.zip)

WARLORD (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-warlord.zip)

REGENT (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-regent.zip)

MONARCH (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-monarch.zip)

EMPEROR (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-emperor.zip)

DEITY (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-deity.zip)


If you would like to play as (or against) the Vikings, on random maps, you may Download the Vikings mod (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-rules-mod-v09.zip) and unzip the BIC file to your CivIII\Scenerios folder. Note that you need the War Galley support files correctly installed or the game will crash.


FOR THOSE PARTICIPATING IN RBD8... get ready. :)


- Sirian

RBD8 - The Vikings - is underway!

Players, see my previous post for INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS.

Anybody not partipating here, but interested in trying the scenerio, see my previous post for links to the savegame files.

Jester is up first, and will be playing until 2550BC. Thiazi will be playing until 1750BC. After that, 10 turns per player.

Jester
Thiazi
Justus II
Charis
Grey Fox
Ozymandous
shdwlord

24 hours to post results, or to post "Got It" with another 24 (up to 48 total) to play and post.

Victory conditions: Space Race or Conquest. Emperor difficulty.

The Viking home city has been founded on a pristine lake and our workers await instructions from King Jester.


- Sirian

And may all our christmases be white!

(thanks for the furs... getting us all riled up about luxuries...)

We've got two cities founded, and a third on the way. We've got lots of fur, which helps us to keep warm in our harsh, harsh winters. By warm, I mean happy, and by winters, I mean Emperor Difficulty.

We're ten turns away from Map Making. We don't have the tech to get it faster than 40 turns; I think the GL is going to be a big part of this game.

My turn was pretty uneventful. We've got enough room for one, maybe two more cities, depending on how much we really want to cram onto this teenie little island. There is some nice grapes over yonder, though, so we can set sail as soon as possible and found new colonies.

The one really stupid move on my turn was to assume that the little barbarian hut was innocent. It wasn't. I moved a warrior to it, thinking "hey, maybe we'll get something nice!" Instead, we got a dead warrior, and 37 gold pillaged. So, I officially give myself a "Weedie", in honour of not playing it safe.

:smoke: :goodjob:

However, I think we'll be able to recover. We're pulling in money pretty quickly, and it's not like we'll be money-rushing anything anytime soon.

Trondheim is set to a settler, but that can be changed to whatever is necessary. I don't think another settler is a good idea for this little island, but then it's not my decision to make anymore!

Good luck, and for heaven's sake, try not to get pillaged!

Thiazi's up next, playing until 1750BC.

Here's a shot of the known world after King Jester's reign:

Got it. It looks like we will be moving our capital later in the game.

Sorry for the rather Spartan report but once I’ve done a few rounds, I am sure I can get up to a level of detail that is more fitting :)

2470: The city of Uppsala is founded near two gold deposits.

2190: The research of Map Making is complete and we start researching Literature, so that we can build the Great Library.

1750: A War Galley (should have called them Dragon Ships) is complete in Kaupang and is being sent to pick up a group of a warrior and two settlers. We should use one settler to secure the wines and the use of the other will be up to the next leaders discression. The Great Lighthouse is finally started in Kaupang and micromanaging reduced the build time from 100 to 75 turns. I probably should have started that earlier in my reign but we really needed two cities producing at the time and while Uppsala should be a nice commercial city, it isn’t right now.

I wish I had more to say about these turns but it looks we are off to a decent start, we will finally start exploring in the next turn or two and if we get lucky, we will have a landmass to the south that will be worthy of moving our capital to.

The Viking home island has been fully explored and settled!

Justus II is up next, playing until 1500BC.

Got it. Looks like I will have the honor of spreading our glorious Viking culture across the sea. Time to go for the grapes!

Our intrepid captain, Leif Erickkson, set out with our first War Galley and two hardy groups of pioneers to find a new land to settle. With only one band of warriors for protection, he knew he would have to make some tough decisions, and when they found the first island, the legendary Vinland, he landed one group of settlers to fend for themselves, as he continued on around the island. These industrious folk founded the city of Hladir in 1650, and began immediately to organize a work crew. It is still several years before they will be trained and equiped, but they intend to build a road to the hill with the vineyard.

Leif continued west and discovered a New World, an island as large as our homeland, if not larger. He landed our warriors to climb the nearest mountain and scout the area, then found a good site for a fishing village, and landed the remainder of our colonists there. They soon discovered valuable Gems in the nearby mountains, and they also dedicated themselves to training workers to build a road to retrieve those gems for themselves. Our warriors continued to scout around, and discovered a small village. These villagers gave us 50 pieces of gold before disappering, but strangely, left a working mine and a stretch of road behind. This will be an excellent location for a new city, as soon as we can raise a new group of settlers. Leif found another group of huts on the northern edge of this island, and that is where our warriors are headed next.

Meanwhile, back in our homeland, the citizens of Uppsala completed a training ground and barracks so new bands of warriors would be able to go off into the world trained and ready to face any enemies we might find. They immediately began training a new band of warriors to go defend Kuapang, where workers continued to work on a Great Lighthouse that will enable our War Galleys to travel farther and faster. This work will still take many centuries to complete. Our workers completed the road from Kaupang to Upsala, and then returned to begin digging into the tundra near the carribou grazing grounds, looking for materials to help in the construction project.

Chief Justus II decided to raise more warriors in our capital, Trondheim, to keep order as our population expands. He then decreed that we would build a great Harbor, both to build better War Galleys and to prepare to accept the flow of tribute from our new colonies. This work is nearly complete. Of course, we will need to build harbors in our colonies as well, but this will allow all our cities to share in the many luxuries we see, from Furs to Wine to Gems.

(It will be my successor's decision to continue with the workers in our new cities, but without the luxuries the cities will be unhappy when they hit 2 population, I have timed it that the workers are produced as the population expands, so they can be out developing the terrain while the city then turns to a warrior. We cant build temples yet, so our culture wont expand to get the gems for a while, we might need to do a colony. Also, as mentioned, we will need harbors to connect those new luxuries with our mainland.

I think mining the game-tundra squares will be a big help, especially in Kuapang, in order to speed up the wonder, but we will also need warriors there to keep the peace.)

Here is a picture of the map, I hope this works. The city names are blurred, but the new ones are Hladir on the wine island and Aarhus on the new island to the west.

Has anyone else seen a goody hut with a road and a mine? Look to the far west, that was a hut before the warrior moved in, but now there is a mine and road, no other civs. Strange.
:confused:

The reign of Justus the Intrepid comes to an end after a glorious era of exploration!

An advanced minor tribe with their own roads and mines? How curious. :enlighten

Marvelous looking results :goodjob: new cities founded in spots that secure lots of food -- er, they will once temples come online. Gambit with grabbing the hut with a lone warrior around paid off this time, although it haunted Jester on the first turn.

Charis is batting cleanup in the heart of the order, he's up next.

- Sirian

Its a custom map, I wonder what other surprises Sirian left for us :D

1500 BC(0) - Charis the Red took over the reigns of the great Viking
nation when he defeated Justus the Intrepid in an arm wrestling
match. When he looked over the realm, things seemed to be in good shape.
We have five fine cities, spanning three islands (ice rocks, to be sure!)

Kaupang, going for Great Lighthouse (good move!) - it can reach exactly
size 6 (coincidence? nay :cool: ) Alas, shields are MAX'd at 4/turn.
A temple before the lighthouse would have expanded the radius to get that
other forest square, more shields, and better happiness. It will need
two happy faces from taxes to be happy at that size.

Trondheim. Proud capitol, home of the palace. Soon to be our first
harbor! Excellent! Vet ships, exported luxuries, and more FOOD.
It's on a fresh water source, so this extra food means it can grow
as large as we can keep happy! Granary and settler are needed here.
If those are done as Colossus becomes available, might be a second wonder.

Hladir. An island unto itself, key because of... wine! And wow look at
those whales - we'll want a harbor and temple asap.

Uppsula. A strong producer once mined, and helping out Kaupang. Alas,
until we get temples, it's stuck at size 3.

Aarhus. The very hub of life in our largest island. The task falls on the
shoulders of Aarhus to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the island.
With our exploring capabilities, getting a settler back on that war
galley will be important too. Lots of fish and game and whales on
this island, fantastic! A river too! (Alas, **NO** irrigable land)

Overall, good call on all the workers in production, we need to get the
MOST out of what few squares we have! (And a good analysis by our previous
leader, Justus). One key deficit... temples and the prerequisite
Ceremonial Burial. We seem to have been going for Literature
at min rate, such that now I can't speed it up faster than 20 turns :(
That almost 300 in the bank does us no good, we need the 'key techs'
before going into science shutdown mode - Burial, Lit, Iron Working,
Wheel. (So I slide back to 10%, since 10 through 100 make no difference)
If we were on less than Emperor or pre-1.17 I would hope for contact soon
and a great boon of tech trades, but hopes for that are very low now.
Also, with Barbarian activity and this diff, chances are good we'll see
a ransack at some point and lose a large chunk of our treasury.

So how long does our 'war galley' advantage last? A looooong time, til
Frigate at the END of the middle ages. Until then, especially if we
have the lighthouse, we rule the sea. Alas, our 'ground troop' support
is far weaker, I don't see being able to overwhelm a good size island
for a long time. A 'colony' island is another matter -- if we can fill
up about three war galleys we can become terrors. But even that requires
Spears, Horses and/or Swordsmen (not to mention barracks, and spare production
to make all of those plus a small armada). So Charis the Red's take is that
any island with zero or one cities is his for the forseeable future, while
homeland invasions are further out (don't fear, they WILL come!! :hammer: )

With these thoughts, the Red literally takes the helm...

1475 BC (1) - On Gem Island, there's a fishing nook foundable spot in the
SW corner with two fish, AND a whale, our galley finds. Our warrior decides
to hop back on board and let Aarhus handle the island itself.

1425 BC (3) - Just note definite sea currents North of homeland. Send our
galley to pick up Trondheim's settler due soon.

1300 BC (8) - Ah, excellent spot up North! On a hill, next to a hill,
with three whale squares in range (post temple :( ) I can see another
spot with at least 2 whales to the NW of that. Initial visible pieces
suggest it's a three-city island.

1275 BC (9) - Viborg is founded on this hill+whale spot.

1250 BC (10) - Hmmm, that NW spot isn't 2 whales, it's four! Yum!
Well these turns sure are short, time is up.
To the East of Viborg, there's a chance that's not actually an island
but a thin land strip leading east (can't see any eastern coast yet)

Next up... (Grey Fox)
- Decide whether to take the hut near Viborg now. I would if mid-turn but
will let you benefit/suffer your own consequences of this.
- Aarhus needs worker citizen shuffle to be sure to complete warrior
at or before city grows.
- Please get science rate up much higher for next one-three techs.
At this stage we'll actually use libraries instead of temples to
expand our boundaries :p

Good luck,
Charis

(PS Now back to rbd5 :P )

I have the game...

Fredrik Gråräv takes command over the vikings, as he easely wrestle downs Charis. Not so strange when you think about how old that man was :).

1: 1225 BC
The War Galleys continues their exploring. And in Grårävs command they discover a new Continent, and it's full of Ice and totally unliveable (Arctis). Gråräv calls it Iceland

(the real thing isn't so icy...).

2: 1200 BC
Our war galleys continue their exploration and finds that the island which Viborg is located on is bigger then Gråräv thought from the start... We find 2 more whales, and we should be able to build at least 4 cities on this wide thin island.

3: 1175 BC
Aarhus (Århus), grows and completes it Warrior, a new Warrior squad is being trained to explore. Fredrik Gråräv notices a strange thing about the wide thin Viborg island, it has a road conection between two freindly looking villages. The village on the other "large" part of the island has Incense!

4: 1150 BC
The most eastern part of the Viborg Island has 3 fish resources, two incense and 4 gold resources as I can see at the moment.

5: 1125 BC
I can now see 2 more fish resource and a total of 5 Gold resources, we could build a city getting three fish resources and 5 gold resources!

6: 1100 BC
A new island is found, south of the Wine island. All I can see at the moment is a little tundra, some grassland, Furs! and Wheat!

7: 1075 BC
Some more exploring.

8: 1050 BC
Something happened... you'll never know what...

9: 1025 BC
Nothing Special...

10: 1000 BC
Let's see what's going on in that freindly village over there...
No wait a second, an army run it's an army... now wait a little an army for me?

I don't beleive my eyes, we get an army from the village. Thanks Siria... I mean Oden.

We now know how to store our knowlede for future use, we now know about literature!
Our next research goal is Ceremonial Burial (Because frankly, Charis is beginning to

rotten here in the Palace...) we will learn how to do that in about 200 years (4 turns) with a payment of 1 Gold per turn.

Trondheim will build a Settler in 2 turns, and grow in 2 turns, so when the settler is built we will have a 3 Size city still...


In some turns we will get a road to the Wines and those are crucial for us to build Both the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse. In a little more turns we will have Diamonds, and furs and incense. Those four should do when having +10 cities.

We will also having surplus incense maybe even Diamonds, I'm not sure... but those could be traded later.

We have to decide what to do with the Army. Having an army this early is a great advantage.

My thought is that we should go for Iron working, after we have C.Burial and get Swordsmen.

An army of Swordsmen should be nice, don't you think?

!!! But !!! remember that an army with 3 units in it is considered as 4 units! So if we are going to use it before we get Caravels or Galleons, we should transport the Army to the Island where it would be used and fill it there!

Here is a picture:

Here is the save!

Odin checks in on his people, finds them thriving and expanding. :goodjob: :viking:

The reign of King Ozymandous shall begin soon. :king:

In a vision as he comes to power, the great Ozymandous learns from the gods themselves that the Viking civilization is but "average" compared to distant rivals. The "greatest" city on the earth is one known as Athens. Other great cities of note: Delhi, Babylon, Paris. The glorious Vikings are the most learned, literate people in the world! :D However, they rank dead last in occupied territory. :eek:

Dead last in occupied territory??! :eek:

Confounded rapid expansionist AI warmongererers!

Great turn Grey Fox. An Army too fat to fit in the War
Galley, lol! I do like the Swordsmen idea, with simultaneously the best offense and the best defense around for their time. Those city dots you pointed out look good. And tnx for picking up Ceremonial Burial.

Charis

That we are last in Territory does not chock me...

The others probably started on larger Islands, and/or they have built temples in all their cities.

And you all know how fast the AI is in expanding.

We must get the G.Lib and the G.Light...

Oops I accidently took away the image I posted earlier...

Have the game, but as I am at work I will play later tonight. :viking:

In the year 1000 BC Ozymandous took command of the Viking nation when he beat the aging Fredrik Gråräv in a mead drinking contest. Rumors abounded that he had somehow spiked his opponents mead, but they were later proved false, he had instead watered down his own mead thus proving that brains, not brawn sometimes wins the day. ;)

Ozy the Clever surveyed the Viking lands and found that everything was pretty good, but that a few things could be better.

Inhereted turn (at 1000 BC) : Changed Aarhus from worker to settler since we need more cities on this rock. To speed production on the settler while ensuring continued growth the people of the village were instructed to put away their fishing nets and hunt the wild game that was so plentiful. As everyone knows dried venison makes much better jerky than fish and the deer pelts and bones can be used for clothing and other useful items that the hardy settlers will need to start their journey. :)

End result, city growth in 6, settler produced in 9. Mental note to make sure to adjust luxuries the turn before the town grows so no turns are lost in production.

Ozy sighs heavily as he decides to whip the poor people of Hladir unmercifully to complete their harbor. As soon as the road to the grapes/wine is completed the bigger cities on the main island would remain content without the cost of higher luxuries.

The people of Uppsala are ordered to construct a glorious galley, instead of more warriors, so that our people can spread across the waves and conquer all we find. What good is there to have warriors but no boats to transport them?

975 (1) : Hladir completes harbor, changed to temple place holder (Ceremonial Burial discovered in 3 turns), our warriors set out to explore the barbarian villages charted, but not explored, previously.

950(2) : Trondheim produces a settler, who then loads a waiting galley to settler the island south of Hladir. Production changed to the Great Library and production time reduced from 134 turns to 58 turns with some city-worker adjustment. City still growing as well.

The road on the grapes/win on the island of Hladir is started this turn and expected to be completed before the main wonder building cities expand again.

The worker near Aarus moves onto the nearby mountain to build a road so our people will have access to the wonderous diamonds found there.

Ozy happens to be visiting Aarhus to see the reported diamonds when he hears alarming news!! The warrior we had exploring to the north of the island entered the seemingly abandoned village and was ambushed by three Goth wariors!

The first Goth warrior attacks and the heroic Viking warrior is severely injured. The Viking warrior is again struck a disasterious blow and seems to be in dire peril until he enteres a Berzerker rage and slays his attacker!! His deed was so mighty he then promoted to veteran!

The second Goth warrior then attacks the wounded Viking hero and again the Viking is struck a serious blow. Once again the Viking warrior enters a Berzerker rage and slays his attacker and is promoted to Elite!

Finally the last Goth warrior, undaunted by the fate of his friends and anticipating an easy victory over the severely wounded Viking attacks. Again the Viking warrior is wounded and once again he froths at the mouth and enters a Berzerker rage! The Goth, now realizing his error in attacking instead of fleeing for his life turns to run and is cleaved almost in twain by the Viking warrior!!

The warrior wins against three enemies and is now Elite!! Ozy quickly finds the best medical person in the tiny village (his personal doctor/herbalist) and goes out to tend the wounded warrior. The warriors wounds are grave but he recovers fully due to his undaunted spirit.

On his way back to Aarhus, after seeing the wonderous diamonds, Ozy hears even more great news. Apparently the other exploring warrior on the island to the north so impressed the Phonecian tribe he found that they taught him Bronze Working!

Ozy was overjoyed at this news because he now knew that the kingdom would be much safer with spearmen than the warriors previously trusted with defense. Not that the warriors could not strike fear into the hearts of any man (as proven to the Goths :D) but spears allowed men to keep others further away thus ensuring they were wounded before they could wound you, which is always a good thing. :)

925(3) : The Warrior having sent word back on how to work Bronze next boards a war galley to sail around the treacherous mountains to explore another primative encampment.

The War Galley with settler from Trondheim sails southward past Hladir in preparation of crossing the open sea.

900(4) : Ceremonial Burial discovered and Ozy (along with Fredrik Gråräv), is finally able to send Charis off in a Viking funeral pyre as befitting the past leader. (About time to, he was getting a tad ripe :lol: )

The sages offering different suggestions to Ozy on which direction he should advise them to research next, Iron Working or Mysticism. The warriors want Iron working so they could get better weapons but the clerics think Mysticism would better benefit the people, because while iron may break the spirit of the Viking people should never falter.

After many months of musing on the subject Ozy finally decides on the path of Mysticism (due in 7-8 with 90% science), not because he thinks the spirit of the Vikings is weak but because the clerics have promised to build a great temple to gladden the people once this is discovered.

(Note: This was chosen because I gambled that we'd research Mysticism and Iron working before meeting anyone else. Delaying Iron working might not make us as strong militarily but Mysticism allows us to swap wonders if needed without losing as many shields hopefully.)

The ship with the settler sails south, across the open sea, until it ends up close to the previously sighted land. The other galley, with the warrior aboard sails next to the barbarian village and the warrior offloads, only to find an abandoned village.

Hladir, Viborg and Uppsala changed to temples because they have whale or other "goodies" outside their current culture border and need to expand. Temples complete in 40 shield, library complete in 80.

875(5) : Luxuries increased to 20% so that Aarus will not riot the last three turns it is building a settler. We change from -1 gp per turn to -3 gp now with 500+ in the bank. (We can afford it.)

Ship with settler unloads the settler on the southern island. The only problem was that the drunken captian unloaded the settlers in the wrong spot (oops!). The error was not discovered until after the ship had sailed further around the island and saw the true shape of the island.:( (Sorry about that.)

The warrior loads back aboard the northern ship and the ship sails across the open sea.

850(6) : We recieve word from traders that the Babylonians have completed a Wonderous achievement, the Pyramids!! Ozy is worried about what this could mean to the fate of the Viking people until word is recieved from the northern warrior that the Burgundian tribe had taught him the Code of the Warrior! This is great news! :goodjob:

825(7) : Not much going on except the workers moving to mine the game on the main island to help the production of the Great Lighthouse.

800(8) : Word is received that Moscow, of the Russian people, has built the Collosus(sp?). Ozy is not worried because he knows that eventually all the world wonders will be in control of VIking hands anyway. :viking:

775(9) : Roskilde is finally founded on the southern island amid the ice flows but next to a forest full of beaver dams (fur) and grassland filled with wild-growing wheat.

The settler from Aarhus moves to the mountian nearby to meet up with the elite warrior that defeated the Goths.

Aarhus selects a temple as it's next build item so that the people will no longer fear the deamons of the sea and will have the courage to venture upon the open waves as the warriors aboard the galleys do now.

Science set to 100%.

750(10) : Settler from Aarhus, along with the elite warrior, moves toward the fertile spot charted previously as a rich place to settle.

Ozy sits in his cushioned chair (he is a tad old after 250 years!) and marvels at the accomplishments of the people while under his rule. WOrk proceeds on two great wonders and soon he knows the VIking nation will be strong and glorious, in health, military power and gold from trading the many luxuries they shall have.

Notes to the next leader:

Viborg will complete it's temple in two. This will help with unhappy people and also grow it's borders to get the yummy items two squares away.

Uppsala has 2 happy and 1 unhappy people but will complete it's temple in 2 turns, well before it's next growth. It also needs it's borders to spread to gain access to the items currently unavailable.

Trondheim should (IMHO) use the furs when it next grows to boost production then the fish afterwards to keep it growing faster, you can do otherwise if that's not a good idea. :)

Roskilde can go two more turns as it is, then be swapped to the wheat to grow shortly after it's warrior is completed.

Mysticism will be discovered in 4 turns at 100% science with a -3 gpt penalty. We have over 500 gold still so that shouldn't be an issue.

Next will be a few pictures (if I can attach them correctly) showing possible city sites. Hopefully everyone can chime in with their ideas as well.

(Credit to Sirian for first doing this.)

Thoughts on settling the big island...

Red Dot = 2 game, 1 fish initially. Border bonus = +1 game, +2 fish, +1 whale.

Total = 3 game, 3 fish, 1 whale and it's on a river. Needless to say I like this spot.

Blue Dot = 2 game, 1 fish. Border bonus = 1 game, 1 fish, 1 diamond.

Total = 3 game, 2 fish, luxury. We'll have the luxury sooner with Aarhus so this is 2nd priority after Red Dot IMHO.

Green dot and yellow dot's would be "fishing villages" that would eventually have decent production but not as high a priority as red & blue respectively.

Anyone else have a better plan or something feel free to tell me how wrong I am. :)

This is the island initially discovered by Grey Fox. I agree with his city suggestions on the thin strip of land and in the NW of the current city on the left side of the island but thought to suggest something different on the right side.

Red Dot = 1 game, 1 fish, 1 gold, 2 incense (city is founded on top of one), plus hill defensive bonus if ever needed. Border bonus = 3 game, 1 fish, 2 gold.

Total = 4 game, 2 fish, 3 gold, 2 incense, plus it's on a hill and adjacent to the ocean so it can build a harbor.

Blue dot = 4 fish. Border bonus = 2 gold. With the tundra and high shield producing terrain this will be a decent site as well.

Red dot = good mix of ocean and potential production terrain, little overlap if any.

Barbarian camp = access to 3+ wheat on plains so good food and decent production as well.

I am not sure of these sites as well as the others but shouldn't be that bad.

These islands might only be worth mild attention but seem to be worth founding some cities on, as long as we're not over our limit and the corruption isn't too bad.

Red dot = An ok site, nothing special.

Blue dot = Another ok site.

Light blue dot = Not sure which of these would be best. If the blue dot is settled then the top spot would probably be best as they wouldn't overlap as much and the top spot would get both hills. However, the bottom light blue spot get's both game squares and the whale and also the mountain potentially.

Hopefully everyone else will have better ideas on these, if they are even worth settling.

Good job Ozy! And thanks for taking the time to draw up our now beloved "colored dot" plans :D

Big island:
- I would move blue dot to the SE one to get that extra mountain
and forest for production options.
- Add one more dot in the very NE corner of island as a small fishing village, as a very low priority dot.

Skinny island:
- We may want one city smack in the middle of the skinny
leg, both as a canal to get across the land as needed, and
as a choke spot in case one leg of island gets attacked.
(Low priority if we can found the others first) (Oops, on re-read you did mention this)
- Red and blue spots look great

South island:
- Red dot looks fine
- Add the last dot smack where the barb hut is, catching
all the wheat and not missing any of those fine mined grassland spots. Very high priority, this is a SWEET spot

Scattered ones:
- These look good too. The cyan dot's exact location may depend
on what we end up seeing in that fog to the east

One last comment... when you post your save file it would be a great help to say "xyz is up, and abc is on deck"

shdwlord is up and Jester is on deck, in this case :hammer:

Charis

Oops, on second look the blue dot on the "Big island" should be one square SE, somehow I overlooked that. :)

Thanks for the clue about saying who is next, I needed that. :)

Oh, BTW, to the SW of the South Island is more shoreline, might be worth investigating.

I believe I can safely comment on these fine dot maps. :)

Great job with the Big Island plan, Ozy. I like your blue right where it is, as moving it would get less food, create three overlap, and just how many mountains can that site support anyway? Icy lands, the food is invariably the limitation. Each fish could support one mountain, each game could support one extra forest. Green, on the other hand, could get less overlap, more sea tiles, and a whale, by moving one SE.

South Island plan also looks solid. :goodjob:

I like Grey Fox's plan for the north island better, though. His spots would give two strong cities, while yours would leave the eastern city with virtually no shields.

As for the scattered islands, even the world creator has no comment there. Odin must have been sneaking some incense :smoke: when he fashioned those lands. ;)

Odin wishes to say more, but Freya is shooting him a scolding look so he holds his tongue. :viking: :queen:


- Sirian


ALSO: regarding the temporary loss of attachment options, those due up next either need to make email arrangements, tell me they can't (I can host files at my Civ3 page for a couple days), or ask for delays until this forum problem is corrected.


GREY FOX: have you been paying attention to the RBD10 thread? We'd like to hear from you over there, please. :)

got it

Hrm, question or two and a comment.

Skinny Island: Yep, on second look I like Gery Fox's plan better as well. I had tried limiting the overlap from that city with the plan to put the city on the middle of the skinny connecting piece of land.

Big Island: If I moved the green dot one SE, would it still qualify as being next to the river? I initially wanted it one square SE but thought in a previous game that when I did that the city lost the benefit of the river, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for the comments, glad I didn't mess them up too badly. :)

Ah, the vikings. Probably the civ2 feature I missed the most. But as a descendant of vikings, I noted some things. War Galleys? War GALLEYS :eek: :confused: ??? The vikings went to Iceland, Greenland and America in those boats, you know. That's not exactly what I call sticking to coastal waters. Still, that was probably the best choice available. But religious/militaristic? If any traits fit the vikings, it would be any two of militaristic, commercial and expansionistic. They sailed out into the world and raided, traded and settled. Their gods, however, are imported.
Still, any vikings are better than none. Thanks a bunch.

Ozy: you can right click on the tile to find out if its on the river or not. If there's a gold bonus, it's on the river. In the case of green dot, though, it doesn't matter, because a free aqueduct would not be worth reducing the city's maximum potential population by so many, with less food available.

Melle: NONE of the civs are even close to historically accurate. It's just a game. I could write an essay two pages long on how distorted the American civ is in this game. :) I picked Vikings to fit with the naval/icy theme of the map and tailored it to make the best scenerio, nothing more.


- Sirian

Inherited turn: Roskilde switched from warrior to spearman.

1) 730 Uppsala finishes temple, begins spearman.
Thucydides has completed a list of the wealthiest nations of the world:
1) Vikings
2) Japanese
3) English
4) French
5) Russians
6) Greeks
7) Iroquois
8) Egyptians.
Settler heading for the green dot is inspired by divine wisdom from a mysterious force guiding him, and heads SE of his original destination.

2) 710 Viborg finishes Temple, begins harbor. The Udal formed, begins work on a temple.


3) 690

4) 670 Mysticism learned, masonry began.

5) 650

6) 630 Uppsala finishes spearman, begins Settler. Hladir finishes temple, begins library. The Zulu have finished the Oracle.

7) 610

8) 590

9) 570

10) 550 Masonry learned, Polytheism begun.

Ack!

I was hoping tha settler would go for the Red Dot instead on the big island, but green is better than nothing. :)

Woo hoo, we're the wealthiest, let's hope we can get Lighthouse and GL!

Jester up next.

Thiazi on deck.

I'm a little strapped for time today, so I'll play it out tomorrow.

Jester

Sorry for stalling this game as long as I have; I'm going to have to pass this one. I won't be able to play it until late tomorrow, maybe monday.

So give me a pass here, I'll make it up later when there's a space.

Jester

Originally posted by Sirian
Melle: NONE of the civs are even close to historically accurate. It's just a game. I could write an essay two pages long on how distorted the American civ is in this game. :) I picked Vikings to fit with the naval/icy theme of the map and tailored it to make the best scenerio, nothing more.


No doubt you could. I've seen your two-page essay on why cattle should be irrigated, not mined ;)

I suppose the ends justify the means. Great scenario, I mean. Especially the cool :nono: No, mustn't spoil ;)

I'll play tonight, I just had a busy weekend and forgot to check the forums.

510 BC: We lost a galley and two of our men scouting the isles to the west.

490 BC: The dreaded Romans have completed the Great Lighthouse.

470 BC: Kaupang switches to building a Library.

450 BC: New land spotted to the west.

430 BC: A yellow border has been spotted! We are finally not the only ones stuck in this godforsaken land.

370 BC: Our traders have made contact with the Egyptians and they have spotted French borders. The Egypitans have the wheel and iron working but I will leave it for the next leader to negotiate.

Looks like the gambit of building the Lighthouse in Kaupang instead of in the capital (where it could have been finished sooner) did not pay off. :o

Still a lot of game left to play, though. Really, just getting started. :viking:

:fish: :fish: :fish:

Wow, Thiazi, you sure had an eventful turn! Looks like I will need to sharpen my axe, er my manners and introduce our culture to the Egyptians!

Argh, ack, cough, sputter.... The Great Lighthouse, in the
hands of a "City on the Hill" nation??!

This will not stand!! :ripper:
Rome better be wearing asbestos underwear! We were
unforunately stuck between a 4 shield and a 5 shield city at the time lighthouse was started. More unfortunately, the city picked was already at its max with 4 shields.

Gonna be some even worse sputtering if we also lose Great Lib :P

Oh well, that's why they call them "gambits" :P
Should be an interesting ride.

Charis

When the clan of Justus II returned to the palace in 350 BC, they saw that the glory of the Vikings had spread far indeed. Our realm had doubled in cities since last they had ruled, and we were spread over many lands that were not even known at that time. With growth, however, comes adjustments, and Justus saw that many of the citizens of our beloved capital were unhappy with the crowding. Some even questioned the wisdom of laboring so hard on the Great Library, seeing what had happened in Kaupang when another people built the same project they had worked so hard for. Justus knew, however, that the Library would be a cornerstone of our future, and in order to keep the workers happy and productive, he decreed that henceforth a tenth of all trade would be directed into luxury items to reward the Viking workers. This pleased many in the capital, :)
although some of our scholars grumbled that it would delay their research by two decades :(

Justus, however, had other plans for helping our wise men. One of our voyages had seen a city of another people, and Justus thought he could learn from them, while teaching the greatness of the Viking culture. These people were called the Egyptians, but at first they wanted much gold to share their secrets with us. Our fearless Captain Lind continued east, however, and landed a band of warriors on another island, where they found a city ruled by the French. The French were eager to learn of Viking literature, and taught our captain the process of working Iron into swords and other weapons. They also shared their map of the world in exchange for ours, which included a map of Egypt! :egypt:

Finally, Joan d'Arc, leader of the French people, agreed to sell us a model of the Wheel for only 75 gold. Knowing that we knew where their cities were, and were now friends with the French, Cleopatra was much more reasonable, and offered us her map and 135 Gold for examples of Viking literature, as well as our map. Knowing that the French would probably sell them to the Egyptians if we did not, Lind decided to get what gold he could.

As news of these discoveries reached our homeland, our people realized that there were sources of both Iron and Horses near our cities, and that if we could build roads to them, we could equip our warriors to defeat any foe. Iron was discovered near Viborg, and west of Aarhus, while there were wild horses near Hladir, as well as near a barbarian camp southeast of Roskilde. In order to build a road to the iron ore, and bring it back to Viborg, some workers were sent from Trondheim on a new War Galley. Workers form Hladir were able to build a road to lead those horses to town by 190 BC.

Also, as our advisors studied the French and Eqyptian maps, they noticed markings of other treasures, such as Silk and Spice in Egypt, and Dye and Ivory in France. Our advisors think that someday we might be able to trade our furs or gems for these exotic goods.

By 310 BC, the people of the Udal had completed their temple, and the people of Aahrus, encouraged by their new temple, claimed the mountains to the north, and the gems found there. Meanwhile, Justus remembered the debates among past rulers about where to build new cities on the islands near our homeland. As he looked at the maps, he knew that our explorers had found many great city sites, but that we had no one to go forth and build these cities. He declared it a Viking duty to go forth and establish new strongholds on the islands, and decreed that over half our cities would focus on equipping bands of settlers to travel to new locations. He knew that this would also ease some of the overcrowding in many cities.

In 290 BC, Captain Lind and our exploring Galley discovered several small islands north of the Egyptian lands, and the captain landed some settlers to look for a good colony site, while our warriors explored an old village. They were ambushed by Goth warriors, but prevailed, and reboarded the galley to continue exploring south. The settlers, however, built a new city, called Lindholm, in honor of their captain. He continued south along the Egyptian coastline, and along the way was able to get an updated map, and 140 gold, just for explaining the concept of Polytheism to them. They were not interested, however, in learning of our new techniques for horseback riding.

Justus, knowing of the waste and corruption that seemed to increase as our realm expanded, set his wise men to study a better way to govern our people. :king:

Meanwhile, the garrison of Roskilde had become restless, and knowing that there were horses to the south, decided to explore the old barbarian village. The village was not abandoned, however, and the spearmen found themselves surronded on three sides by Alemanni warriors. The brave Vikings held their ground, however, as first one band attacked and was killed. The second wave caused some injuries, but our spearmen were hardened in victory. As the third wave approached our veterans, they were defeated before they could strike a blow, and our spearmen now have a reputation as an elite unit. With courage and skill such as these men, who will dare to oppose us!

Looking over his reign, Justus felt a sense of satisfaction. The workers in trondheim were close to completing the Great Library, and should be done within the next reign. Although he was not able to build many great cities, or raise armies with the new weapons, Justus tried to prepare his people for a great age of expansion to come. Even now, we have four seperate bands of settlers on their way to new locations, ready to establish more settlements to continue the glory of the Vikings! :viking:

Just a few notes, and a map for my successor, of the house of Charis. You should get the glory of completing the Great Library!
Egypt and France did announce they were starting construction in 330 BC (8 turns ago) but the cities doing the building do not look that productive, and we are within 7 turns of completion now. Keep an eye on Roskilde, I miscalculated the growth there, and sent the garrison off to raid the barbarians. It is wasting its production right now due to corruption, but if you put the people back on the wheat, it will grow before the warrior is done and be unhappy. There is a warrior on the Galley near Hladir, but I'm not sure he would get there any faster. I sent a worker to build a road at the fur near Kuapang, so we have a spare once we are able to trade overseas.

I would STRONGLY recommend breaking out the whip to rush the harbor at Aarhus, it will save us 20 turns in getting those gems to the mainland, as well as food growth. Also, it means the cities of the Big Island will have access to our fur and wine, which should more than compensate for the unhappiness due to whipping. I was going to do it, but on a transition turn I didn't want to make any irrevocable decisions.
(besides, now the people can blame you instead!)

Also, the road to the Iron near Viborg will be done in 3 turns, you might want to switch some of the spearmen in production to swordsmen when that happens. I thought about moving the Army back to our homeland when I sailed the worker up there, but then forgot to, you may want to do that, then load it with a couple of swordsmen. If we put 3 units in the army, it won't fit in the galley, IIRC.

You will get the opportunity to solve the great City Site debates, there are four settlers either at or near good sites ready to build, there has been plenty of discussion on the pros and cons of each site, but looks like my reign was just meant to get them there, I did not have the time to build them. I marked with red dots my votes, for what its worth, (and because I wanted to figure out how to do it!). I know we discussed putting a city midway across the skinny neck of the north island, but I think it is more valuable to cross that and build a city on the incense, gives us another luxury which helps with happiness, and we can go back and get the other site later.

SKOL VIKINGS!

P.S. After Charis, Grey Fox is on deck!

150 BC (0) - The annals showed some benevolent and exciting reigns by our
previous leaders, and a vile and cursed upset by Romans stealing the
Great Lighthouse. We must be sure to get the Great Library.

As Charis the Red II came to power he studying the world maps. His heart
did sink as he saw his own nation, renowned for exploration, excellence
in the ways of the sea, an firce raids, would have virtually no chance
for martial engagements anytime this millenium. Our foes had large island,
and to take them would require an armada of ships *and* troops. If they
were, instead, on the small island, they would be mincemeat. C'est la guerre!
(Who are these "France" people anyway?!)

"Total Units 26, Allowed 36." said his advisors. "What does that mean?"
"My liege, it means we have too few workers (one per island, one per two
cities), too few military units, and for all the PRIME area left to grab
right near the shores of our foes, we have zero settlers in production.

Sir, there is one more thing...

"We have ZERO offensive units. Nil. Nada. Kuch nahi!!"

:blush: Let's see if we can fix that! If four settlers is good, ten is better!

First order of business is to shave GL time down a turn, if we lose that by
one Charis the Red would need to vomit :vomit:

Second order is to go into a mad whipping frenzy. With the Great Library
we may end up in Republic or Monarchy at a moments notice, with our days
of rushing behind us. Harbor in Kaupang, Vet War Galley in Uppsala,
Harbor in Aarhus, Also, Viborg is set to Settler.

Finally, a screeching halt on science! Our current deficit spending only
gets Monarchy in 25 instead of 38, and the GL is due in six turns. If we get
a new gov soon, fine, if not, more chances to whip before those days are gone!
His advisors remind the Red One that the apparent "slowness" with workers and
settlers is due to the weather and coldness, very scarce food, and that the
previous leaders have done all they can... "I know my friend, I know..."
(BTW, excellent narrative write-up Justus!)

130 BC (1) - We'll go with Grey/Odin plan for North Island, after careful
thought. "Fox Nest" is founded on the east end of North Island.
On big island, 'red' and 'blue' are set in motion. 'Barb camp' is a *KEY*
next target, on South Island. Other ships make first step toward expeditions.

110 BC (2) - Kaupang whips temple (to make people less unhappy about whipping!)
Roskilde's warrior pops south a bit to get that hut.

90 BC (3) - Jorvik is founded on red dot of Aarhus Big Island. Azul West is
founded on blue dot of same island. At end of turn SIX new settlers are
being trained. Given our widespread empire and massive corruption, and our
strong gold position now (since no science spending), we may wish to stay
a little longer in despotism to whip these far-out places more. Speaking
of corruption, where are we going to put our Forbidden Palace?

70 BC (4) - :lol: Advisor says the people think we should build FP! Good,
my senses aren't off. From a goody hut, philosophy.

Forbidden incense is founded, on Grey Fox' insense square. It
has good food, good production, enough lack of corruption it can stil make
things. Is the name an omen??? Hard to say! It also has iron connected up
as well as horses. My initial thought there are: temple built naturally
in 15 (will grow in 10). Immediately after you get any shields there, whip
the harbor (although there is a road connecting it to harbor town Viborg)

We snatch a goody hut just steps away from an Egyptian colony, and there
do we learn the secrets of Mathematics.

50 BC (5) - "Great One, you have completed the Great Library in Trondheim!"

[party]

30 BC (6) - Our nervous west-exploring galley makes it across brief seas
after seeing sea currents last turn, and comes across a tiny island,
and two barbarian galleys! Hmm, make that three - the first one is mowed
down by our unique war galley! Sadly, the island is one square and a
mountain, and hence its two whales wasted.

Check diplo, we sell Philosophy to Cleo for World Map and 70 gold,
then Math to backward Joanie out of pity. These two need to do some of
our research, and we have to meet new people :P

10 BC (7) - The barbaric toy boats come a calling, and we send them packing,
becoming elite in the process.

Four luxuries online now. We went 0% lux on 3, now we're "comfty" zero.

10 AD (8) - New coastline seen!!

30 AD (9) - The Coastal city of "Amber Waves" is founded in the very rich
wheat spot on ri island. The new found island ("Charis Isles") is uninhabited.

50 AD (10) -

There's a settler in Uppsala. Build him a ship!! He is thinking about heading
to stake a claim in the scattered island (or new Charis Isles). Up to
the next leader. The settler just out of Viborg is en route for 3 squares
NW of there (or onto the mid-island spot), then follow up with one more settler
to 'complete' the island. A settler from Azul West or Aarhus should found in
the SW corner which catches the iron, two fish and whale. (Hmmm, whip the
ship in Uppsala in 3 turns??) After the last settler, Viborg should make
a barracks and either horses or swords for his Army. Hladir next turn finishes
a settler but will also need a ship to pick him up. Catch both he and the
Uppsala settler and hit two island clumps in same direction.

Before even fully exploring Charis Isles there was a definite current to
South which we peeked cautiously out into. Bingo, coast right away! So now
you're just at the tip of land, bigger than one square and with at least one
non-mountain square. (Also a big barb camp). I'm thinking it CAN'T be much
further to the South of that spot where we'll meet more civs. At that point
you will either want to definitely NOT broker communications, to slow down
our opponents big time, or broker the heck out of it to start getting techs
via the GL. I favor the former. The techs we'll get anyway. Going slow as
the world lets us take advantage of greater skill and greater ships in
colonizing all these islands!

Charis the Red leaves office with the treasury at 800 Gold! :hammer:
Five cities founded, two settlers ready, about five in progress.

Good luck!
Charis

Do we plan to win via the whip, i.e. have some cities do nothing but whip units? If not then why would you want to whip something that will be done in a few turns anyway? After having read most of the RBD (ok, all) games where it was said that whipping any city more than three times (back when it was only twenty turns and not fourty penalty) was bad, so that if any whipping was done it should be considered carefully, why whip when the unit/improvement will be done in less than 10 turns anyway?

I'll be the first to admit I have learned a tremendous amount of good ideas from reading all these games, but would you mind explaining your mind-set or goals Charis? Not being used to using the whip myself (or having to deal with it in game), I only have what I have read here for experience and would appreciate any tips or hints (especially clues, I seem to have lost mine :crazyeyes ) you have to offer, thanks. :)

The less production, the more value in whipping. Charis is talking about staying in Despotism longer to further improve all the new island colonies, which will be stuck at 1 shield production because they are too far from the capital. You can get a temple and a harbor in each with two whippings, and the harbor would bring online some luxuries anyway, which would compensate for the whipping penalty until it wears off.

Now whether or not that's the best plan is a different question, and I must stay out of that aspect of it. :)

:viking:

- Sirian

Excellent questions Ozymandous, and very nicely phrased too, thanks :P

> Do we plan to win via the whip, i.e. have some cities do nothing
> but whip units?

Eep! No, nope, never, haven't done, never will. They tried hard to close that 'endless whipping' exploit in 1.17 and left a small hole. In any case, no that's not the plan at all.

> If not then why would you want to whip something that will be
> done in a few turns anyway?

Hmmm... I don't like to whip when things are done in a 'few' turns, and especially dislike whipping when the shield savings is small (and choke if it's whipped with less than 20 shields to go)
Let me re-read my post and see what was done...
First I may have used too strong a description, a 'whipping frenzy' :P I thought it a good chance we would be out of despotism soon, if not my turn next, so chances to save time with whipping soon to disappear. The Kaupang harbor was to get luxuries onto the island asap, and it's a big ticket item. The War Galley was because we needed settlers and transports, now, not in 20 or 10 turns, and Harbor in Aarhus was probably the most solid whipping, with even Justus suggesting it pre-turn. Later in the turn, Kaupang whipped a temple because we've got far too little culture as a civ (and perhaps to expand the boundary quickly?) A Forbidden incense harbor whip was suggested because it's high shield item, brings lux to others (I wrote that before noticing another road-connected city on island had a harbor actually), and because we may very well need to crank out more vet war galleys at some point. The final comments on "whipping the colonies" and staying in despotism a little longer is just because they will be stuck at one shield production, but food is unaffected by corruption. If you can whip something and save 40 shields, that's 40 turns not a few turns!

> Not being used to using the whip myself (or having to deal with
> it in game)

In my single player games I don't think I used forced labor once, and was likewise concerned at first when I saw it in games.
I also had a big distaste from reading about whipping because the "guides" from the "experts" were all along the lines of endless despot-all-game-whippings. Here's some general tips from my own understanding (feedback requested at points I may be off)

- With core cities and good production, it may not make sense to whip because i) they'll be big size and unhappy soon, and ii) they CAN build things in a "few turns", and finally, because you may get almost no benefit, when you factor in the time it takes to re-grow and the shields lost in that period.

- With 'hopeless' cities, those where corruption means permanent 1 shield output, be sure not to miss every chance you can to whip. In 1.16 that meant whipping every infrastructure building that you truly needed. In 1.17 that means 2, 3, or 4 whips, whatever you can do and not cause the happiness to require a bump-up in the luxury slider.

- With "borderline" cities, at 1 shield but capable of producing more once you get a courthouse, make it a TOP priority to get the courthouse whipped.

- For cities 'stuck' due to terrain, condemned to be a small ice rock city, they won't get large enough to cause big unhappiness problems.

- With terrain or game conditions such that things move very slow (low food, low shields), the 40 turn penalty isn't much. When you are 'finished' with the whip, the next ONE building it will work on may take 40, 60 or 80 turns to build! (In colonies for sure)

So in this game, when I mean 'widespread' whipping, I don't mean the same city endlessly, but not being scared to whip it about twice in almost every city.

The "need" I felt in this specific game to get things going quickly with these rushes was that when I saw the map I thought, our biggest need is to RAPIDLY expand and COLONIZE. The luxuries brought in via harbor outweigh the unhappy citizen. The extra food from the harbor is also great, outweighing the loss in one citizen to improve his food situation. For those colonies, my routine would be: found, one warrior, whip the harbor.

I hope those help, if not by giving sound advice, then at least by explaining my reasoning.

That said, I must offer a criticism of my whipping here, and two criticisms of my general rbd-game whipping exploits.

First, granaries may well have been the very best thing to be the first whip. With a granary in place the time to recover in size after a whip is cut in half. In fact, I should add this to the "general tips" - if at ALL possible, do your whipping in a city with a granary or make that building one of the first items to whip.

Second, I may whip too much in colonies, NOT for factors of unhappiness, food or growth, but for corruption and maintenance costs. If I whip a temple in a game where the civ culture doesn't matter much, then the colony becomes an economic liability. Continuing with harbor or hurts the economy more. I know very well the impact of "one shield" production but the fact of "one coin" income is something I'm just now starting to get. (Sirian has, uh, been "helping" me with this :D - eg in rbd14 it's a new goal of mine to be economically responsible in my colonies)

Third, whipping in low food towns might just be as much or more harm than good. In this game, if there were any valid criticism of whipping it would probably be along these lines. Taking 20 turns to recover in size would be bad if you lose back 40 shields! I don't think I did that, but if so, I need to have a longer-range view :P

If there is :smoke: in the above, do comment, all :P
Charis

I've got the game...

I was trying to write a good and 'pleasant to read'-story but I had no time or put no effort into it, sadly :(...

Fredrik Gråräv takes the position as Leader of the Vikings.

1: 70 AD
A War-Galley is whipped in Uppsala.
The city Westness is founded in the west part of the skinny island.

2: 90 AD
Granary completed in Trondheim. A temple is now being built.
A temple is whipped in the Fox Nest.

3: 110 AD
A Regular Swordsman trained? Who issued this? Must be a reminder of the old Warrior program.
The barbarians on the Crow Island (southmost C-formed island) is fulled with barbarian Archers.

4: 130 AD
A forest cut down on tundra, Gråräv wonders what Charis was putting in his mead, poisonius mushrooms possible, maybe his thought was to build a mine there? Everyone knows that forests are best to be left alone on tundra, maybe this was a wise choice made by Charis. Gråräv is starting to wonder why is mead tastes so strong. (Charis was saved by the furs...)

5: 150 AD
A temple is completed in Trondheim.

6: 170 AD
We learn Code of Laws from books supplied by the French and Egyptians in the Great Library.
The Egyptian city Avaris on a future Viking spot. We have a Temple near, but we should need a Library too, but it costs 80... if we had 4 citizens a major whipping could be made but I don't want to make that decision. The city also needs a harbor.

7: 190 AD
A temple is whipped in Lindholm, the egyptians landed on a part of this Island series that is 3 tiles away from Lindholm.
Two War galleys full of Settlers is on their way to two diffrent 'island-familys'.

8: 210 AD
Settlers are being moved to their positions.

9: 230 AD
The town 'Charis Island' is founded.

10: 250 AD
A harbor is whipped in forbidden Incense
A new island and new borders are Sighted with Fredrik Gråräv II's own boat, the boat is currently in the middle of the Ocean, but dark-blue borders can be spotted.

There is two ships in danger in this moment, one with a Settler and Warrior in the sea to the SW of 'Charis Island', and one in the Ocean far, far east past the France and Egyptians.

I'm currently building a Barrack in Trondheim but that could be changed to whatever (maybe Library), but it has 1 turn left.

Fredrik Gråräv II has currently left his post as a Leader of the proud Vikings, in favor of someone younger, and for a vacation in some warmer lands...

http://medieteknik.bth.se/frst01/vikings.jpg

The current locations of the galleys...

Nice turn GreyFox...

> A Regular Swordsman trained? Who issued this? Must be a
> reminder of the old Warrior program.

Ah yes... the AI ordered it. Was just building a warrior for MP duty, then just before done it gone Iron on line. I figured (correctly? not sure) that the AI considers what your best "offensive" unit is in the game, regarless of experience. So it thinks "They have Swordsmen!" and treat us with more respect. No hard data on whether they think like that, but hey, even our military advisor says "The best unit they have is the Knight" even if it's a conscript and there is only one.

> A forest cut down on tundra, Gråräv wonders what Charis was
> putting in his mead, poisonius mushrooms possible, maybe his
> thought was to build a mine there? Everyone knows that
> forests are best to be left alone on tundra

Hehe, yes the general "forests are best on Tundra" conflicted with "I want that settler and I want him now" to save 10 turns. Cutting a second forest there would be cutting our nose to spite our face (if the first one wasn't, itself!) I'm not sure why, but the settler craze really colored thinking that turn.

> We learn Code of Laws from books supplied by the French and
> Egyptians in the Great Library.
Republic won't be far behind. (Although do we have the economy to support it yet? Probably not)

> A new island and new borders are Sighted with Fredrik Gråräv
> II's own boat, the boat is currently in the middle of the Ocean,
>but dark-blue borders can be spotted.
Cross those fingers!

> There is two ships in danger in this moment, one with a Settler
> and Warrior in the sea to the SW of 'Charis Island', and one in
> the Ocean far, far east past the France and Egyptians.

More finger crossing! I should realized that if I have to cross sea to explore the place that if I find something to settle, a FULL boat will have to do the same.

That right-most exploring is doing the right thing. His mission was from the start, explore-explore until you die, don't come home until we have astronomy!

Let's hope the Deacon is praying for those fine sailors in the ships!! :hammer:
Charis

Er, I will get it when I get home tonight. Have a few papers to write (yah, grad school!:rolleyes:) so may not get the write up (or even turns played) till tommorrow however.

As soon as I get the time to play and post I will. BTW Charis, I still have questions about whipping but I'll reply to that later as well. :)

I was going to ask some questions myself today, but I see that they have already been answered! Still, here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I had wondered about the workers clearing forest, I saw some doing the same during my turn, but they had just started, and I had more important jobs for them to do;)
Then when looking at Charis' savegame, I saw he had some workers doing it as well, and I wondered if I was forgetting something. I always leave forest on tundra, in fact I will usually plant forest on tundra if I have no better options. I can see it in some cases, if the city is highly corrupt, and not getting the use from the extra shields anyway (at least the 10 dont get wasted!), also if it is a low pop city that cant work all the forest squares anyway. The third case is for an urgent project, such as a courthouse, or in this case a settler. I agree Charis, my last turn was a settler