This game will involve a custom-made map and a custom civ.

Civilization: Vikings
Traits: Militaristic, Religious
Starting Techs: Alphabet, Pottery, Writing
Unique Unit: War Galley
Color: Blue
Capital: Trondheim (city list taken right out of Civ2).

Map: Large, hand drawn (by Sirian)
Opponents: 11
Landform: Archipelago
Climate: Cold, Dry
Barbarians: Restless
Victory Conditions: Space Race or Conquest, all else disabled.
Difficulty Level: up to the players, either Monarch or Emperor.

Turn length: 10 turns. (First player plays 30, second plays 20, then 10 apiece for everybody from there on).

Obviously, since I've drawn the map and tailored the scenerio, I will not be participating as a player in this game. There will be five to seven roster spots, and the game will not begin until there are enough players and the group has agreed on the difficulty level. I will upload a save file from 4000BC and it will go from there.

The War Galley is a beefed up galley, coming available at Mapmaking and capable of starting the Viking Golden Age. It has attack value of 2, standard defense of 1, can carry up to three units, costs and moves the same as a standard galley, and is advanced enough to conduct bombardment missions: the bombardment attacks are quite weak and often produce no results, but just having the option at all, and with the attack bonus, this unit will command the seas in the ancient era and remain useful through the middle ages. So the game is tailored to feature this unit, and will emphasize naval action in general.


Ozymandous and Jester are RBD crew who missed out on all the early games, so they have reserved spots in this game if they want them, and I'd like Charis to give it a shot if he's willing, since it would seem odd to have BOTH of us absent from the roster. :)

Participation open to anybody interested. If the scenerio sounds appealing, you've been following other RBD games, you think you can handle the challenge, and you can be ready to play within two weeks, possibly less, sign up.


If anybody has questions about the civ, map, or scenerio, I won't give out any spoilers but feel free to ask whatever's on your mind.

I plan to spectate quietly and probably also post some extra screenshots from the save files.


- Sirian

I am definately interested in this game and my only preference on difficulty is that it is regent or above. Also, my user name should probably hint at my interest in this game :viking:

I would love to play a Viking game. I haven't played in an SG yet, but I hae been reading several of the threads, and was looking for a good one to come along, and this looks like it! The Vikings were always one of my favorite civs in CivII. Are there any other changes to the rules, or is this a normal game?

My self-imposed moratorium on new SGs (until the ones I'm in are finished) is still in effect. Good luck guys, I'll probably fetch the 4000 save and play it solo, and avoid this thread until I've either given up or beaten it. Given that it has the Sirian Stamp of Approval, what I can't do is just ignore it ;) .

A Viking game! Hooray!

Sign up the Viking Fox the Grey!

I'm in.

Monarch difficulty is my usual, but I wouldn't object to Emperor, is everyone wants to.

Jester

:hammer: <--- Need I say anything more??

Charis


PS Ok, can't escape with words that few... This sounds really interesting, and I can't not jump at this, looks like a good idea and good job, Sirian. Mil and religious? Great combo for what they'll be having to do, with quick rax, harbors, temples... Three starting techs? Potent. Diff level? 70/30 leaning toward emperor, but looking at the requests by others, Monarch is likely best (although I'm guessing victory will not be overly difficult on that diff) Opponents? All random? Some new tribes? Will we get to face the English Man O' War?

PPS Given requests in other threads, I can see about two more rbd SG games popping up within the next two weeks. Especially if we get several 'influx' players requesting to join in :goodjob: For me the player's skill level is not as important as their committment/reliability, so any lurkers out there should not let inexperience stop them. That said, if response here is more than slots, don't worry, another game will surely start soon.

Not a true poll, but just wanted to get feedback from rbd folks and/or others who have shown recent interest, on what games to be targetting as next (rbd9, 10) Several good ideas have surfaced for possible 'next games', so I wanted so summarize a few that I could find from our game threads, and add a few more.

If you could, please respond with: x, y z sound good (or 'nn won't work because...')

1. Globocop. Simple premise - make sure no civ ever gets wiped out.
Chinese (patch 1.17 should help early/good/fast Riders, due to upgrading)
Large map, 12 civs. (There is an initial element of luck in that two civs
might start out in civil war against each other before you even meet them.
But I think it will take a LOT of skill not to just conquer, but to work
the AI's so much that none get eaten up)

2. Army game. (Jaffa showed interest here, and I like) Along the splendid
lines of the Infantry and Artillery games, only the "Army" unit may be
used for offensive attacks to take a city. Mil civ, focus on getting an
early GL, Epic, Mil Tradition, etc. With new 1.17 army-can-blitz rule,
should rock.

2B. Air Force game. Babs or Americans. Main 'offensive' units are the archer
(bowmen), longbow, all artillery units, missiles, nukes, all planes and
paratroopers. Pretty much all expansion would be ancient and middle ages,
since longbowmen is last unit until paratrooper that can take a city.
Wars are wars of attrition, pounding the heck out of enemies without
capturing their cities per se. (Recapture allowed) Carriers would be key.

3. Ignoranti, Clueless Newbies, Dark Ages, however you call it. Zero percent
science, must win by Space Race. How far can you go with a lone scientist,
the Great Library, Trading, Tribue and Espionage? Have several 'sci' civs
in the game. My MOST recent games suggest this won't be nearly as bad as
it sounds at first. (Arathorn showed interest in this one)

3B. Cretans. No culture (the palace is IT). No temples, libraries, culture
wonders. Push the limit and see what kind of impact near zero culture would
have for attitude, flipping, reversion. Crete=Greece? (Sirian suggested
this iirc, as a followup to a Dark Ages proposal) Your city radius will
ONLY be 9 total squares except for your capitol.

4. Five city challenge. Build five cities. Be first to Alpha Centauri.

5. Swiss game - neutral folks, no whipping, razing, bombarding. French, Greek
or Roman as actual civ, with mil opponents.

6. Opium Barons. Trade and luxury focus, no religious happiness wonders
(ie colliseums ok, no temples, cathedrals or related wonders)
Control the masses with luxuries. Overarching goal is to have as many
luxuries for your cities as you possibly can. Perhaps India as 'Thailand'

7. Capitolists. (Yes, that's spelled right) A definite anti-blitz game. The
ONLY cities which may be taken are capitols (and no razing of other ones).
Penetrate, capture, garrison vs flip, and hold. (Actually extend from capitols
to also include any city with a wonder) For added spice, you can't build
wonders, only capture. This has a xCC flavor in that once initial expansion
is done, you won't be getting many new cities (hmmm... capitol hopping would
be an issue) Victory: space race, with ship components only built in
ex-foreign capitols :P

8. Methodists. (No, not the denomination) A peculiar methodical civilization
which thinks some things are just done best in a certain order. Rather than
wait 3500 years to build the FP, why not make it right away? Well, you need
a certain minimum number before you can build it, but basically the last
city that causes this message to fire is the one you want for your Forbidden
Palace, and you start it right away. Max civ size is the 'optimal' size,
which is double the size where you can build the FP. (8 city/16 on std map)

Note, some of these 'combine' fairly well, like 5CC with Swiss for a 'leave me
alone!' attitude, or a 5CC+original-foe-capitols game.

Charis

-- We now return this thread to its regularly scheduled programming! :P

Justus: the game will use the default rules from the new patch, with the exception of the Viking civ itself, the draft penalty (we'll go with the 20 turns of the last patch for that), and the moving resources. Last I checked neither oil nor coal had legs, so what is it doing walking to the other side of the planet? :) The resources will stay where I put them. Whether that will be a good thing for the team or not, remains to be seen. ;)

Thiazi, Justus, Grey Fox, Jester, Charis, Ozy (probable). That leaves at most one more slot. Wow, I didn't expect it to fill up this quickly! I better hurry and finish the map!

:hammer: :viking: :fish: :arrow:


- Sirian

I'm not playing, but I have been reading past SGs with you guys. Just by reading I have learned A LOT more about the game. Good luck! I just may want to join you on the next one ;)

I would like to give it a shot :)

Charis,

I'm up for anything, but as I'm sure you recall I prefer games where the map is relatively small, as I tend to prefer short turns...

Of course I've already expressed interest in 5CC and Swiss but others are fine too. I'm with CC in waiting until some of our current ones are done before jumping in more, however.

I don't think the RBD crew has ever played on a Tiny map. Wonder what would make for a good game on that? Maybe Ignoranti -- it would make it much harder if the AI civs could research stuff really fast and there were fewer civs to trade with and extort cash for tech from.

Ohh, I finally get a shot to join one of these games. :)

Umm, er, haven't played much beyond Regent level and judging from how I attempted to play the "Isolationists" game vs. Sirian and Charis I still have a lot to learn, but I am willing to try hard. :)

Count me in (preferrably after someone who has a better clue or two? lol).

Ok, also a few comments to the "poll" posted by Charis. For anyone interested I am only adding the comments I made from notes about the individual suggestions. Some of these comments may sound strange without reviewing the initial suggestion, but I think this will be long enough without quoting each idea again, so here goes.

1. Interesting idea, seems like the "human wall" defense theory for other civ's and constant ROP would be vital to making this work.

2. Sweet, sounds good to me.

2b. Hmm, I don't recall when air power alone ever won a war, but I guess that's what the paratroopers are for.. ;) Possible tweaking of the drop range might be needed for this game, and I assume that modern combat would be a sure thing if only to race to get to the stealth aircraft needed to bypass the SAM improvement.

3. Interesting. This game would good for those (like me) who always try to get and hold a science lead. Might strengthen skills of how to "do without those favorite units before everyone else gets them" aspects of the game. What about wonders who have the "Scientific" and another trait "flag" on them? Would any wonder that was flagged as Scientific be a no-no even if it was also militaristic, commercial or religious?

3b. 9 Squares? Ouch. Can people in the city still work outside this border? If not then this would be an ICS style players dream scenario. The group playing this game would have to decide how they wanted to handle the corruption issues raised by having too many cities, assuming cities are placed 3 tiles apart. Also curious about the wonder deal with this version. Since all wonders produce culture would this be a wonder-less game?

4. Sounds like a slightly larger OOC game. Maybe a modification that the civ can never fight outside it's borders and the game might be interesting. Not to say they can't roam around and explore, but not attack outside the borders (explorers and undefended transports would be used for this I assume, might make the explorer unit actually worth something!.

5. Add a rule against "offensive" attacks and stipulate that the players civ must give the AI breaks for everything in trade and could be challenging.

"What, you want to end the war and have peace and give me stuff? Nah, no thanks on the goodies, I will end the war however."

Disable all victory conditions except diplomatic and then NOT build the UN and this game would be killer. Not sure how iffy the game would be trying to get a Diplomatic victory without the UN would be tho'.

6. Hmm, drug dealers eh? :lol: Just make sure to pick a "commercial" civ as the broker for the trade bonus (and to simulate the distribution network).

7. As mentioned in the initial suggestion what happens when the capitol moves? Maybe a stipulation that you can never capture more than the capitol and any wonder cities the Civ has in any given war and the players MUST honor the 20 turn peace rule before attacking again. Another rule that the no other civ can be attacked offensively (even if they start it) until all other capitols have been taken would make this a conquest/domination players dream.

8. Sounds sort of "standard". Any other rules/limits to impose?

Wow. This game filled up already? Put me on the reserve list if a spot opens up -- I'd like to try a game with a strong naval focus.

I was just thinking it might be good to start off one or two new games now, playing at lower priority through the quicker early years while the current batch are finishing off.

Would there sufficient interest if I were to start off a 5CC game (#4) this weekend? Emperor diff, and I'd be disabling culture and diplo victories, which seem to be the normal win conditions for OOC games. And I'm not going to keep restarting until I find a river :)

Of the others listed, I'd be most interested in #2 (obviously), 2B, 3B, 6 or 7.

--
Jaffa

Well, if you start the 5CC, I will join, since that's one I wanted to participate in... again I will only be able to play on weekends, but since you're already stipulating that it would have lower priority, that shouldn't pose a problem. However, I'd still prefer to wait until one of the other games wraps up.

Comments to several posts here...

Jaffa, I'm up for a 5CC asap, and an army one soon perhaps. Emperor sounds great. What were you thinking for civ? (Romans and Egyptians come to mind or is Swiss intent, French) Anything not expansionist would work ok. The nice thing about 5CC type games, the turns are *much* shorter than regular games. Micromanagement is crucial, BUT takes far far less time with only five cities. Placement is also crucial.

Ozy: Methodists sound standard? Have you ever built the FP in your eight city and started it the minute it was founded??? Picked it to be the 'right' distance away? Beeline settler, settler, settler to get your eight cities asap? Cap the civ at 16 cities to minimize corruption? I've never done anything like this but we keep wondering what an 'optimal # cities' game would look like (it was a big topic of discussion in rbd5 game) I have some thoughts for other restrictions that would hold after the expansion phase, but need to chew on those a little more. The key point of this game is in fact, "How well do you do running at optimal #cities for map size?"

For the Army game, Roman Legionaires, Russian Czars with Communist focus, or Zulu Impirialists come to mind. For globocop I'm thinking China. Ignoranti Zulu. Iroquiois (Spanish?) Methodists.

Charis

I'd be interested in playing either ignoranti, Swiss, or trade barons.

I've been lurking around SGs for a while and would LOVE to try my hand at one.

As far as variants go, in ideas for future RBD games, there are two I have been working on that I haven't talked about as yet:

:yinyang: Environmentalists: Our civ refuses to make ANY use of fossil fuels. No coal or oil shall ever be connected to our trade network. (Pillage the squares when they turn up at the applicable times. If one turns up under a city, someone would be designated to go into the editor and move it to another square nearby, which could be pillaged.) Lack of coal/oil takes the following things off the table: Railroads, Coal Plants, all modern ships starting with Ironclads (AEGIS Cruisers available, heh, if the game lasted that long), all planes, all motorized units, and any trade involving these resources. Our civ would also be forbidden to build nuclear plants or to use nuclear weapons. All victory conditions on the table except for diplomatic. Large Pangaea map. We would probably play this one as the Egyptians, or perhaps a custom civ.


:D Communicators: Our civ places the highest priority on communication technology. We are required to beeline our own research at the fastest possible rate straight to the communication technologies in each era: Philosophy (in the ancient era), Printing Press THEN Free Artistry (in middle ages), Radio (industrial age), then Sattelites (modern age). ALL victory conditions on the table, but WE must win through diplomacy.

We are allowed to trade techs with other civs, but may not make any side trips in our own research until our Priority techs in each era have been researched. We must buy Communications with other races at the earliest opportunity (as soon as we can afford it) and must also sell Communications at the earliest opportunity. We are also obligated to trade maps with each known civ at least once on each player's turn. Having to win through diplomacy, yet not being able to research Fission until Sattelites have been learned, would really put the pressure on in the modern era. We would play this one as the Russians. Continents map, standard size.


- Sirian

Originally posted by Charis
Jaffa, I'm up for a 5CC asap, and an army one soon perhaps. Emperor sounds great. What were you thinking for civ? (Romans and Egyptians come to mind or is Swiss intent, French) Anything not expansionist would work ok. The nice thing about 5CC type games, the turns are *much* shorter than regular games. Micromanagement is crucial, BUT takes far far less time with only five cities. Placement is also crucial.

Actually, why not expansionist? The free scout would be really useful for quickly finding our five optimum city locations.

Hmmm. Going for a space race win, so scientific would be good. Expansionist+Scientific is the Russians?

(One day, this thread might actually contain some Viking stuff :) )

EDIT: and for the army game I was thinking the Romans, who are militaristic (which is pretty much essential for a good chance of getting an early GL), and have the right vibe :D

--
Jaffa

Guys,

I would *LOVE* to have time to participate in a 5CC or a no-culture or (another) Ignoranti game. The problem is my schedule. I rarely play more than an hour or two every couple days or so. (I tell you, having a job, a wife, a toddler, one on the way, and church gets in the way of a fella getting to do what's really important in life!) [I post/read at work, as compiles of 50000+ lines of code takes a while.]

I certainly can't be counted on to keep up with any regularly-scheduled game. If the rules were more flexible (six/seven players, two others have to play between consecutive plays by one person, etc.), I might be able to squeeze it in. But such games seem to play quite a bit more slowly than you do.

I don't have the history with you guys to really do a "call it and jump in", like ? -- names escape me, Zed? ?? does.

I'll keep my eye out for more openings, though. And I'm glad I'm not completely anonymous....

Arathorn

Charis: Ok, ok, I admit I didn't give the last idea as much thought as I probably should have. Hmm, I was thinking "build FP when get eight cities, that's not unusual", but it clicked when you said the 8th city MUST build FP.

Might be interesting. Would depend on the other rules, such as "what happens when you capture a city? Can you capture a city or have to raze all others?

I assume once the "optimum" number of cities was reached then the Civ would always turn down culture flips, etc?

All these sound like good reading material if nothing else. :D

Sorry to interrupt the Discussion but how about staring a thread about RBD ideas?

EDIT: I'll start a thread right away!

A new thread for RBD SG ideas (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=196339&t=22#post196339)

Drat, posting too late to get in on this game. :(

A lot of those suggestions for future SG's sound really interesting to me, especially the Globocop, Communicator, Ignoranti, and Cretan (is that referring to the Isle of Crete or the insult, cretin?)games. I imagine the Cretan game would have a lot of culture flips to the opponents, so that would make capturing cities impossible. Also, we better hope that we start on an island because if we border an opponent, a lot of our border cities could start flipping. By the way, we wouldn't be limited to only 9 squares because if you build your cities close enough together, the game extends the cultural borders automatically.

One idea for a game that I mentioned on the builders' thread was not up here, and is something that I would definitely be interested in. The game's premise is similar to that of the Swiss game in that no offensive warfare is allowed up to the modern era. However, in the modern era, anything goes (actually, I'm thinking of modifying this to having offensive warfare only being waged with modern units to insure that we don't just conquer the world with tanks). This game was inspired because most of my games are decided in the early industrial age, so I have not seen full-scale modern warfare. To insure that there will be warfare in the modern era, all victory conditions except domination and conquest will be disabled. SDI could be key to prevent nuclear strikes. I'm thinking of making the civilization the Greeks to make defending from ancient attacks easy, but this could be subject to change.

A new thread for RBD SG ideas (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=196339&t=22#post196339)

:Viking: Let's keep this thread for the Viking Game! :) :viking:

The glorious Viking civilization is born as the ancestors receive word from the gods that they must settle down and begin to train for the final battle at Ragnarok.

Odin has declared that the Viking people must either prepare the way by conquering the entire world, or must build a great airship to travel amongst the heavens like gods themselves, to cross the Rainbow Bridge and arrive in Asgard (aka Alpha Centauri).


Version 1.17f only.

24 hours to post results, or else to post "Got It" with up to another 24 to play.

No reloads. (Autosave is back in action to recover from crashes, power outage, etc, so you may use it for that purpose).

10 turns apiece, with the first two players in round one taking extra turns.


VIKING ROSTER:

Jester
Thiazi
Justus II
Charis
Grey Fox
Ozymandous
shdwlord

Altnerate: Jaffa Tamarin


Jester will play until 2550BC.
Thiazi will play until 1750BC.
After that, each player will take 10 turns. (You may play less).
1500BC, 1250BC, 1000BC, 750BC, 550BC, 350BC, 150BC, 50AD, 250AD, etc.

Remember, this will be an archipelago map. I'm waiting to hear final word from the group as to whether you want to play on Monarch or Emperor difficulty.

BEHOLD your homeland! Such lands might make mere mortals tremble, but embolden the hearts of all true Vikings!

:viking: :king: :viking:

I don't have that much experience with Emperor level, but given that it is an island map, and the AI seems to have trouble with naval movement, I think that Emperor should be challenging enough to offset that. At least it looks like we have some carribou to hunt on our tundra!!:king:

My vote is that we play Emperor Difficulty.


Vi Vikingar ska plundra och härja, vi ska erövra hela denna vackra värld för asagudarnas skull. För Odin, Tor, Loke, Balder, Tyr, Heimdal, Frej, Freja, Njord, Skade, Vidar, Höder, Brage, Idun och Ulls skull!

Emperor is fine, slight preference that way. (Monarch wouldn't be a problem either.)

Starting position looks great.

Charis

I have never played on emperor level, but either would be fine with me. I am just hoping that Sirian reviews the game, and doesn't put on the kiddie gloves when reviewing my turns ;) Any advice and/or pointing out of mistakes would be more than welcome

I'm not sure on a few points (haven't messed around with rules or custom civs so I'm not sure how this goes):

Is the opening turn save a scenario file or a game save (is there a difference?) ? Would there need to be seperate files posted for a Monarch and an Emperor start? For my spectating, I'd play at Monarch if I could, my attention span is too short for solo Emperor play.

Oh, and Grey Fox, what's the translation of that Swedish? I personally only know one Swedish phrase: "Skittgubbe, du luktar som en gette." or however you spell it. Admittedly, it's not the most useful Swedish phrase I could know, so I never made it a point to get the proper spelling down, nor bother to remember which accents went where.

That's what I call cold. This starting location looks... interesting. Let's hope we can find a nice place for a FP-using wonder-pumping machine, because our first city doesn't look up to the task. It will, however, be nice for settlers early on, because of AMPLE food.

I just hope everyone gets the shaft as nicely as we do. But then, sirian wouldn't be THAT nice to us. :lol:

Okay, emperor it is! And may whatever god we believe in have mercy on our souls! The Hammer of Thor awaits! :hammer:

Carbon: You're right, there are two separate deals with a custom scenerio: there's the "bic" file, containing altered rules and/or a custom map, then there's the savegame.

The editor still does not allow you to designate which start location you want the player to appear at, so if I offered the scenerio file, chances are a pathetic one in twelve that you'd be able to start the map in the correct location. There is a utility available that will allow me to alter a savegame to place the player's units where they need to go, and swap them with the AI units from that location. That's why I'll be posting a save file from 4000BC, rather than the scenerio file. I'll think it over about whether to offer you a Monarch version, depends on how much hassle it turns out to be for me to take all the necessary steps.

One thing I might do, though, is post a file with the rules set for these Vikings, which would allow players to start their own random maps, and play as or against the Vikings. I'll think about it.


- Sirian

Originally posted by Grey Fox

Vi Vikingar ska plundra och härja, vi ska erövra hela denna vackra värld för asagudarnas skull. För Odin, Tor, Loke, Balder, Tyr, Heimdal, Frej, Freja, Njord, Skade, Vidar, Höder, Brage, Idun och Ulls skull!
Translation:
We Vikings shall plunder and ravage (or wreak havoc?), we shall conquer this beutiful world for the sake of the asa-Gods (?). For Odin, Thor, (and all the other God names) sake!

Could be fun with 2 special units (A Viking or Berzerker)... but would make it a lot of extra work (Greeks should have a better Sentry weapon then Catapults, and so on...)

Well I can say that our mead/ale/beer looks like it will stay nice and cold with that starting position.. :p

Hmm, assuming that is where we start would it be best to found right there or move one tile in another direction?

Anyone? Anyone?

Oh, and what is the map size? Or is that another thing we will discover as we play? I know archipelago (sp?) but size might help some as well....

You would really be hard pressed to find a better place to found than your initial location. You have 5 (6?) special food resource tiles, *FRESH WATER*, and a coastal location. Also some forest and a hill in radius for shields. It may not be your top producer of goods, but it will be a great settler source, and a decent bet to snag a very early wonder, and the Great Lighthouse. Unlike other games, the Lighthouse is our biggest 'must have'. We start with Alphabet, Pottery and Writing. (Do all civs start with 3 techs?)
Our attributes are Mil and Relig.

Wow, we *start* with all prereq for mapmaking. It will be an unprecedentedly early start getting off our homeworld. In fact, with those techs, I wouldn't be surprised at all if what we saw was all we got, a tiny tiny island that FORCES us off. And the first civ we find better brace itself, cuz the second ship will be carrying
weapons of war :hammer:

If we really are on a ultra-tiny island, we may end up with each of those fish/game feeding one city until they get their harbor, all just a few squares away from the capitol at the starting spot.

As for Golden Age, I don't think the Great Lighthouse will set it off for us. Neither will our galley for sometime - killing barbarians doesn't count as a GA-inducing win (at least it did NOT for the earliest bowmen in rbd7).

Hmm, we even have the starting tech to go for Literature (after Map Making) and go for Great Library. That would let us go zero science and focus on ship, city and unit build up.

Alas, what units? IF we had iron, bronze and iron working would be all we need, and go for a Swordsmen conquest. Hosed if no iron. If emperor diff, we'll need Ceremonial Burial and Temples much earlier than otherwise needed, especially given the food we have at the start and our religious nature. We can build them, barracks and harbors cheaply.

If no Iron but horses, Wheel, Warrior Code and Horseback riding is the way to the best offense. Sigh, so much for no science :P
We'll need Bronze, Iron, Wheel, Ceremonial Burial in addition to Map Making and Literature as bare minimums. Then either Iron or Horseback before we could consider shutting science down. That and two wonders to build, ouch.

This is going to be a fun start. I hope Jester, Thiazi and Justus consider the opening a strong part of their game - go get 'em guys! :hammer:

Charis

Charis,

Good evaluation, I think Great Lighthouse will be very useful on this map, and if I remember right, it is cheaper in 1.17 also. I think mapmaking should be our first priority, in keeping with the viking theme, and also to establish contact with other civs early. A good map can be worth gold or even techs early. If we find a luxury early, we can postpone Ceremonial Burial, expanding our culture will not be as important on an island map, as long as we can deal with the unhappiness. Although Temples are cheaper for us. A lot will be based on when we find our nearest enemies, we may be able to crush one or two before they get off of their islands! So exploration (ships) will be critical.

Alll I can say is I am glad I am going after Charis. :D

Hmm, should be fun, although I wonder how behind the eight-ball Sirian may place us, since he's editing the map...

Any bets that the island is dinky like Charis mentioned and there won't be any Iron OR horses anywhere close to us?? Heh, either that or we'll be surrounded by ocean and even having the G. Lighthouse won't help much...

Of course, the islands could all be linked with ours as the smallest and us having to fight progressivly bigger opponents as we go, that would also be interesting. Just have to wait on the game now.. :)

One question.. Having never tinkered with the editor, will we need to load anything different than the modified scenario file to play or not?

One thing about Emperor difficulty: you only get ONE content citizen. This means you need a happiness factor in place at size 2! This can be a unit on garrison, a temple, a road to a luxury, or to be running some of the budget on luxuries. This requires a lot more attention for an efficient start.

For example, the home square will provide two food, one shield and one trade. The fish in the lake will provide three food (four post-despotism, but three to start) and two trade. The game to its northwest would provide two food and two shields. So... if you start on the fish, you get 3 food per turn and 3 trade, but only 1 shield. If you go to the game, you get 2 food per turn, 3 shields, and 1 trade.

If you use the fish nonstop, the city will grow in 7 turns, and have only 9 shields progress toward a warrior. (1+1+1+1+1+1 on the first six turns, then 3 on the seventh turn because Civ3 processes food before shields, and you get credit toward shields for the extra population as the city grows, and it would automatically choose the game as the second tile). You get to size 2 before the unit is built and then end up in riots unless you increase the luxury slider to get a happy face going -- or much worse, turn your second citizen into an entertainer.

On the other hand, if you start on the game and leave it there, you build three shields per turn, in four turns you have a warrior, but you've wasted 2 shields and are still six turns away from growing to size 2.

So there are two ways to handle this.

1) You put the citizen on the game for three turns, build up nine shields, then swap to the fish for one turn. You could then swap back and forth as you please.

2) You put the citizen on the game for one turn, right away, then move to the fish and leave it there. You complete the warrior and grow to size 2 on the same turn, like this: 3+1+1+1+1+1 on first six turns, then (leaving it on the fish, you get the game shields automatically on the growth turn) you get 3 on the last turn, for a total of 11 and the warrior is produced. Then, running both the fish and game, you would grow again in 7 turns, and running 3 shields per turn, could play the farmer's gambit with the earliest possible settler. You might have to pay for some luxuries, though, to prevent riots at size 3 for one turn. That would get you the settler faster than building a second warrior first, though. You could even shave a turn off the settler production, as you would get a second game forest tile online for "free" on turn growing to size 3, then swap off the fish to another forest tile, to produce the last 7 shields needed on one turn. 16 total turns to produce a settler this way -- specific to what you can see in this start location. (Different land would require a different approach).

Now if there were TWO 3-food tiles within range, it would not automatically select the game tile next. Just that of the 2-food tiles, Civ3 clearly understands that a tile with 2 shields beats a tile with 1 or 0 shields, all other things being equal. So it's guaranteed to pick the game next if you're running the lake fish. If there was also a wheat grassland in range, it would pick that. Predicting what Civ 3 will autoselect for the new citizen can help you squeeze some "free" shields out of micromanagement, and you learn how to do it right through trial and error. You have to practice to figure it out, and it helps out the most in the early game, where a couple turns difference can literally put you ahead by a couple of turns. Think about the end game, and how much a turn makes. Every turn saved on your growth curve matters.


And that's just about going to be the limit of my advice. I won't be able to critique anybody's turn results until you guys have explored the entire world map, as I don't see any way I could prevent foreknowledge of the map and scenerio from tainting what I would say.


- Sirian


Ozy: Yes, there will be a few extra files you will need: unit info for the war galley. They won't overwrite any existing files and won't get in the way of anything. I'll post complete instructions.

We could switch between the FISH and the Forest so that we will get our First Warrior EXACTLY or Before the City expands, then build a new Warrior to explore or Build a Settler or a WAR GALLEY, but I don't know how fast we will get Map Making.

We should also try to get the Great Lighthouse, the cheapest ticket to the Middle Age, unbeatable to get.

Recently I got the Pyramids and the G.Lib in my Capital on a Large Emperor map, I could have gotten the Great Wall but I did not want to build it... it would have triggered my G.Age, 'cus I'm playing chinese...

Anyway, I don't know if we should rely on having Iron or horses on the Island, we should try to go for an Archer/Spearmen Strategy instead. (Should be Axeman/Swordman...)

Um... OOPS. Maybe I should go back to elementary school. :o I miscounted the start positions, so instead of eleven opponents, there are going to be twelve, making for a baker's dozen of civs in this game. (That's one more than a standard large map allows, but don't worry, they're not packed in like sardines).

I've tested the map and it's not crashing. I've got all the civs in their correct starting locations, and the Zulus got added as the extra civ. I am about to post the save file, but before any of you can play, you have to install the support files for the War Galley unique Viking unit.

The ZIP file for the War Galley exceeds 700k, which is too large to attach to this forum. Rather than break it into pieces, I've uploaded it to my own Civ3 site. You will have to download it from there, but I will provide a link below.


IN ORDER TO PLAY SIRIAN'S VIKING SCENERIO, YOU MUST INSTALL THE FILES TO SUPPORT THE WAR GALLEY UNIT.

INSTRUCTIONS:

1) CLICK HERE (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/wargalley.zip) to download the War Galley zip file.

2) Open up Windows Explorer, locate your Civ III directory, open up the Art\units folder, and create a new subdirectory (folder) UNDER CivIII\Art\units. You must name this new folder War Galley -- not sure if the capitalization matters, but there has to be a space between the two words (I think the folder name must exactly match the name of the unit).

3) Extract the contents of the wargalley.zip to CivIII\Art\units\War Galley\*.*

That's it, you are now set up for some brutal ancient naval action. :viking:


FOR THOSE NOT PARTICIPATING IN THIS SUCCESSION GAME:

If you wish to try your hand at the Viking scenerio, I've generated a savegame for each difficulty level. Choose the level(s) of your choice from the list below, which will download the files from my Civ3 page. PLEASE NO SPOILERS to be posted to this thread. If you have questions, problems, or comments, email them directly to me, please. Thank you.

CHIEFTAIN (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-chieftain.zip)

WARLORD (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-warlord.zip)

REGENT (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-regent.zip)

MONARCH (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-monarch.zip)

EMPEROR (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-emperor.zip)

DEITY (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-deity.zip)


If you would like to play as (or against) the Vikings, on random maps, you may Download the Vikings mod (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/scenerio/sirians-vikings-rules-mod-v09.zip) and unzip the BIC file to your CivIII\Scenerios folder. Note that you need the War Galley support files correctly installed or the game will crash.


FOR THOSE PARTICIPATING IN RBD8... get ready. :)


- Sirian

RBD8 - The Vikings - is underway!

Players, see my previous post for INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS.

Anybody not partipating here, but interested in trying the scenerio, see my previous post for links to the savegame files.

Jester is up first, and will be playing until 2550BC. Thiazi will be playing until 1750BC. After that, 10 turns per player.

Jester
Thiazi
Justus II
Charis
Grey Fox
Ozymandous
shdwlord

24 hours to post results, or to post "Got It" with another 24 (up to 48 total) to play and post.

Victory conditions: Space Race or Conquest. Emperor difficulty.

The Viking home city has been founded on a pristine lake and our workers await instructions from King Jester.


- Sirian

And may all our christmases be white!

(thanks for the furs... getting us all riled up about luxuries...)

We've got two cities founded, and a third on the way. We've got lots of fur, which helps us to keep warm in our harsh, harsh winters. By warm, I mean happy, and by winters, I mean Emperor Difficulty.

We're ten turns away from Map Making. We don't have the tech to get it faster than 40 turns; I think the GL is going to be a big part of this game.

My turn was pretty uneventful. We've got enough room for one, maybe two more cities, depending on how much we really want to cram onto this teenie little island. There is some nice grapes over yonder, though, so we can set sail as soon as possible and found new colonies.

The one really stupid move on my turn was to assume that the little barbarian hut was innocent. It wasn't. I moved a warrior to it, thinking "hey, maybe we'll get something nice!" Instead, we got a dead warrior, and 37 gold pillaged. So, I officially give myself a "Weedie", in honour of not playing it safe.

:smoke: :goodjob:

However, I think we'll be able to recover. We're pulling in money pretty quickly, and it's not like we'll be money-rushing anything anytime soon.

Trondheim is set to a settler, but that can be changed to whatever is necessary. I don't think another settler is a good idea for this little island, but then it's not my decision to make anymore!

Good luck, and for heaven's sake, try not to get pillaged!

Thiazi's up next, playing until 1750BC.

Here's a shot of the known world after King Jester's reign:

Got it. It looks like we will be moving our capital later in the game.

Sorry for the rather Spartan report but once I’ve done a few rounds, I am sure I can get up to a level of detail that is more fitting :)

2470: The city of Uppsala is founded near two gold deposits.

2190: The research of Map Making is complete and we start researching Literature, so that we can build the Great Library.

1750: A War Galley (should have called them Dragon Ships) is complete in Kaupang and is being sent to pick up a group of a warrior and two settlers. We should use one settler to secure the wines and the use of the other will be up to the next leaders discression. The Great Lighthouse is finally started in Kaupang and micromanaging reduced the build time from 100 to 75 turns. I probably should have started that earlier in my reign but we really needed two cities producing at the time and while Uppsala should be a nice commercial city, it isn’t right now.

I wish I had more to say about these turns but it looks we are off to a decent start, we will finally start exploring in the next turn or two and if we get lucky, we will have a landmass to the south that will be worthy of moving our capital to.

The Viking home island has been fully explored and settled!

Justus II is up next, playing until 1500BC.

Got it. Looks like I will have the honor of spreading our glorious Viking culture across the sea. Time to go for the grapes!

Our intrepid captain, Leif Erickkson, set out with our first War Galley and two hardy groups of pioneers to find a new land to settle. With only one band of warriors for protection, he knew he would have to make some tough decisions, and when they found the first island, the legendary Vinland, he landed one group of settlers to fend for themselves, as he continued on around the island. These industrious folk founded the city of Hladir in 1650, and began immediately to organize a work crew. It is still several years before they will be trained and equiped, but they intend to build a road to the hill with the vineyard.

Leif continued west and discovered a New World, an island as large as our homeland, if not larger. He landed our warriors to climb the nearest mountain and scout the area, then found a good site for a fishing village, and landed the remainder of our colonists there. They soon discovered valuable Gems in the nearby mountains, and they also dedicated themselves to training workers to build a road to retrieve those gems for themselves. Our warriors continued to scout around, and discovered a small village. These villagers gave us 50 pieces of gold before disappering, but strangely, left a working mine and a stretch of road behind. This will be an excellent location for a new city, as soon as we can raise a new group of settlers. Leif found another group of huts on the northern edge of this island, and that is where our warriors are headed next.

Meanwhile, back in our homeland, the citizens of Uppsala completed a training ground and barracks so new bands of warriors would be able to go off into the world trained and ready to face any enemies we might find. They immediately began training a new band of warriors to go defend Kuapang, where workers continued to work on a Great Lighthouse that will enable our War Galleys to travel farther and faster. This work will still take many centuries to complete. Our workers completed the road from Kaupang to Upsala, and then returned to begin digging into the tundra near the carribou grazing grounds, looking for materials to help in the construction project.

Chief Justus II decided to raise more warriors in our capital, Trondheim, to keep order as our population expands. He then decreed that we would build a great Harbor, both to build better War Galleys and to prepare to accept the flow of tribute from our new colonies. This work is nearly complete. Of course, we will need to build harbors in our colonies as well, but this will allow all our cities to share in the many luxuries we see, from Furs to Wine to Gems.

(It will be my successor's decision to continue with the workers in our new cities, but without the luxuries the cities will be unhappy when they hit 2 population, I have timed it that the workers are produced as the population expands, so they can be out developing the terrain while the city then turns to a warrior. We cant build temples yet, so our culture wont expand to get the gems for a while, we might need to do a colony. Also, as mentioned, we will need harbors to connect those new luxuries with our mainland.

I think mining the game-tundra squares will be a big help, especially in Kuapang, in order to speed up the wonder, but we will also need warriors there to keep the peace.)

Here is a picture of the map, I hope this works. The city names are blurred, but the new ones are Hladir on the wine island and Aarhus on the new island to the west.

Has anyone else seen a goody hut with a road and a mine? Look to the far west, that was a hut before the warrior moved in, but now there is a mine and road, no other civs. Strange.
:confused:

The reign of Justus the Intrepid comes to an end after a glorious era of exploration!

An advanced minor tribe with their own roads and mines? How curious. :enlighten

Marvelous looking results :goodjob: new cities founded in spots that secure lots of food -- er, they will once temples come online. Gambit with grabbing the hut with a lone warrior around paid off this time, although it haunted Jester on the first turn.

Charis is batting cleanup in the heart of the order, he's up next.

- Sirian

Its a custom map, I wonder what other surprises Sirian left for us :D

1500 BC(0) - Charis the Red took over the reigns of the great Viking
nation when he defeated Justus the Intrepid in an arm wrestling
match. When he looked over the realm, things seemed to be in good shape.
We have five fine cities, spanning three islands (ice rocks, to be sure!)

Kaupang, going for Great Lighthouse (good move!) - it can reach exactly
size 6 (coincidence? nay :cool: ) Alas, shields are MAX'd at 4/turn.
A temple before the lighthouse would have expanded the radius to get that
other forest square, more shields, and better happiness. It will need
two happy faces from taxes to be happy at that size.

Trondheim. Proud capitol, home of the palace. Soon to be our first
harbor! Excellent! Vet ships, exported luxuries, and more FOOD.
It's on a fresh water source, so this extra food means it can grow
as large as we can keep happy! Granary and settler are needed here.
If those are done as Colossus becomes available, might be a second wonder.

Hladir. An island unto itself, key because of... wine! And wow look at
those whales - we'll want a harbor and temple asap.

Uppsula. A strong producer once mined, and helping out Kaupang. Alas,
until we get temples, it's stuck at size 3.

Aarhus. The very hub of life in our largest island. The task falls on the
shoulders of Aarhus to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the island.
With our exploring capabilities, getting a settler back on that war
galley will be important too. Lots of fish and game and whales on
this island, fantastic! A river too! (Alas, **NO** irrigable land)

Overall, good call on all the workers in production, we need to get the
MOST out of what few squares we have! (And a good analysis by our previous
leader, Justus). One key deficit... temples and the prerequisite
Ceremonial Burial. We seem to have been going for Literature
at min rate, such that now I can't speed it up faster than 20 turns :(
That almost 300 in the bank does us no good, we need the 'key techs'
before going into science shutdown mode - Burial, Lit, Iron Working,
Wheel. (So I slide back to 10%, since 10 through 100 make no difference)
If we were on less than Emperor or pre-1.17 I would hope for contact soon
and a great boon of tech trades, but hopes for that are very low now.
Also, with Barbarian activity and this diff, chances are good we'll see
a ransack at some point and lose a large chunk of our treasury.

So how long does our 'war galley' advantage last? A looooong time, til
Frigate at the END of the middle ages. Until then, especially if we
have the lighthouse, we rule the sea. Alas, our 'ground troop' support
is far weaker, I don't see being able to overwhelm a good size island
for a long time. A 'colony' island is another matter -- if we can fill
up about three war galleys we can become terrors. But even that requires
Spears, Horses and/or Swordsmen (not to mention barracks, and spare production
to make all of those plus a small armada). So Charis the Red's take is that
any island with zero or one cities is his for the forseeable future, while
homeland invasions are further out (don't fear, they WILL come!! :hammer: )

With these thoughts, the Red literally takes the helm...

1475 BC (1) - On Gem Island, there's a fishing nook foundable spot in the
SW corner with two fish, AND a whale, our galley finds. Our warrior decides
to hop back on board and let Aarhus handle the island itself.

1425 BC (3) - Just note definite sea currents North of homeland. Send our
galley to pick up Trondheim's settler due soon.

1300 BC (8) - Ah, excellent spot up North! On a hill, next to a hill,
with three whale squares in range (post temple :( ) I can see another
spot with at least 2 whales to the NW of that. Initial visible pieces
suggest it's a three-city island.

1275 BC (9) - Viborg is founded on this hill+whale spot.

1250 BC (10) - Hmmm, that NW spot isn't 2 whales, it's four! Yum!
Well these turns sure are short, time is up.
To the East of Viborg, there's a chance that's not actually an island
but a thin land strip leading east (can't see any eastern coast yet)

Next up... (Grey Fox)
- Decide whether to take the hut near Viborg now. I would if mid-turn but
will let you benefit/suffer your own consequences of this.
- Aarhus needs worker citizen shuffle to be sure to complete warrior
at or before city grows.
- Please get science rate up much higher for next one-three techs.
At this stage we'll actually use libraries instead of temples to
expand our boundaries :p

Good luck,
Charis

(PS Now back to rbd5 :P )

I have the game...

Fredrik Gråräv takes command over the vikings, as he easely wrestle downs Charis. Not so strange when you think about how old that man was :).

1: 1225 BC
The War Galleys continues their exploring. And in Grårävs command they discover a new Continent, and it's full of Ice and totally unliveable (Arctis). Gråräv calls it Iceland

(the real thing isn't so icy...).

2: 1200 BC
Our war galleys continue their exploration and finds that the island which Viborg is located on is bigger then Gråräv thought from the start... We find 2 more whales, and we should be able to build at least 4 cities on this wide thin island.

3: 1175 BC
Aarhus (Århus), grows and completes it Warrior, a new Warrior squad is being trained to explore. Fredrik Gråräv notices a strange thing about the wide thin Viborg island, it has a road conection between two freindly looking villages. The village on the other "large" part of the island has Incense!

4: 1150 BC
The most eastern part of the Viborg Island has 3 fish resources, two incense and 4 gold resources as I can see at the moment.

5: 1125 BC
I can now see 2 more fish resource and a total of 5 Gold resources, we could build a city getting three fish resources and 5 gold resources!

6: 1100 BC
A new island is found, south of the Wine island. All I can see at the moment is a little tundra, some grassland, Furs! and Wheat!

7: 1075 BC
Some more exploring.

8: 1050 BC
Something happened... you'll never know what...

9: 1025 BC
Nothing Special...

10: 1000 BC
Let's see what's going on in that freindly village over there...
No wait a second, an army run it's an army... now wait a little an army for me?

I don't beleive my eyes, we get an army from the village. Thanks Siria... I mean Oden.

We now know how to store our knowlede for future use, we now know about literature!
Our next research goal is Ceremonial Burial (Because frankly, Charis is beginning to

rotten here in the Palace...) we will learn how to do that in about 200 years (4 turns) with a payment of 1 Gold per turn.

Trondheim will build a Settler in 2 turns, and grow in 2 turns, so when the settler is built we will have a 3 Size city still...


In some turns we will get a road to the Wines and those are crucial for us to build Both the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse. In a little more turns we will have Diamonds, and furs and incense. Those four should do when having +10 cities.

We will also having surplus incense maybe even Diamonds, I'm not sure... but those could be traded later.

We have to decide what to do with the Army. Having an army this early is a great advantage.

My thought is that we should go for Iron working, after we have C.Burial and get Swordsmen.

An army of Swordsmen should be nice, don't you think?

!!! But !!! remember that an army with 3 units in it is considered as 4 units! So if we are going to use it before we get Caravels or Galleons, we should transport the Army to the Island where it would be used and fill it there!

Here is a picture:

Here is the save!

Odin checks in on his people, finds them thriving and expanding. :goodjob: :viking:

The reign of King Ozymandous shall begin soon. :king:

In a vision as he comes to power, the great Ozymandous learns from the gods themselves that the Viking civilization is but "average" compared to distant rivals. The "greatest" city on the earth is one known as Athens. Other great cities of note: Delhi, Babylon, Paris. The glorious Vikings are the most learned, literate people in the world! :D However, they rank dead last in occupied territory. :eek:

Dead last in occupied territory??! :eek:

Confounded rapid expansionist AI warmongererers!

Great turn Grey Fox. An Army too fat to fit in the War
Galley, lol! I do like the Swordsmen idea, with simultaneously the best offense and the best defense around for their time. Those city dots you pointed out look good. And tnx for picking up Ceremonial Burial.

Charis

That we are last in Territory does not chock me...

The others probably started on larger Islands, and/or they have built temples in all their cities.

And you all know how fast the AI is in expanding.

We must get the G.Lib and the G.Light...

Oops I accidently took away the image I posted earlier...

Have the game, but as I am at work I will play later tonight. :viking:

In the year 1000 BC Ozymandous took command of the Viking nation when he beat the aging Fredrik Gråräv in a mead drinking contest. Rumors abounded that he had somehow spiked his opponents mead, but they were later proved false, he had instead watered down his own mead thus proving that brains, not brawn sometimes wins the day. ;)

Ozy the Clever surveyed the Viking lands and found that everything was pretty good, but that a few things could be better.

Inhereted turn (at 1000 BC) : Changed Aarhus from worker to settler since we need more cities on this rock. To speed production on the settler while ensuring continued growth the people of the village were instructed to put away their fishing nets and hunt the wild game that was so plentiful. As everyone knows dried venison makes much better jerky than fish and the deer pelts and bones can be used for clothing and other useful items that the hardy settlers will need to start their journey. :)

End result, city growth in 6, settler produced in 9. Mental note to make sure to adjust luxuries the turn before the town grows so no turns are lost in production.

Ozy sighs heavily as he decides to whip the poor people of Hladir unmercifully to complete their harbor. As soon as the road to the grapes/wine is completed the bigger cities on the main island would remain content without the cost of higher luxuries.

The people of Uppsala are ordered to construct a glorious galley, instead of more warriors, so that our people can spread across the waves and conquer all we find. What good is there to have warriors but no boats to transport them?

975 (1) : Hladir completes harbor, changed to temple place holder (Ceremonial Burial discovered in 3 turns), our warriors set out to explore the barbarian villages charted, but not explored, previously.

950(2) : Trondheim produces a settler, who then loads a waiting galley to settler the island south of Hladir. Production changed to the Great Library and production time reduced from 134 turns to 58 turns with some city-worker adjustment. City still growing as well.

The road on the grapes/win on the island of Hladir is started this turn and expected to be completed before the main wonder building cities expand again.

The worker near Aarus moves onto the nearby mountain to build a road so our people will have access to the wonderous diamonds found there.

Ozy happens to be visiting Aarhus to see the reported diamonds when he hears alarming news!! The warrior we had exploring to the north of the island entered the seemingly abandoned village and was ambushed by three Goth wariors!

The first Goth warrior attacks and the heroic Viking warrior is severely injured. The Viking warrior is again struck a disasterious blow and seems to be in dire peril until he enteres a Berzerker rage and slays his attacker!! His deed was so mighty he then promoted to veteran!

The second Goth warrior then attacks the wounded Viking hero and again the Viking is struck a serious blow. Once again the Viking warrior enters a Berzerker rage and slays his attacker and is promoted to Elite!

Finally the last Goth warrior, undaunted by the fate of his friends and anticipating an easy victory over the severely wounded Viking attacks. Again the Viking warrior is wounded and once again he froths at the mouth and enters a Berzerker rage! The Goth, now realizing his error in attacking instead of fleeing for his life turns to run and is cleaved almost in twain by the Viking warrior!!

The warrior wins against three enemies and is now Elite!! Ozy quickly finds the best medical person in the tiny village (his personal doctor/herbalist) and goes out to tend the wounded warrior. The warriors wounds are grave but he recovers fully due to his undaunted spirit.

On his way back to Aarhus, after seeing the wonderous diamonds, Ozy hears even more great news. Apparently the other exploring warrior on the island to the north so impressed the Phonecian tribe he found that they taught him Bronze Working!

Ozy was overjoyed at this news because he now knew that the kingdom would be much safer with spearmen than the warriors previously trusted with defense. Not that the warriors could not strike fear into the hearts of any man (as proven to the Goths :D) but spears allowed men to keep others further away thus ensuring they were wounded before they could wound you, which is always a good thing. :)

925(3) : The Warrior having sent word back on how to work Bronze next boards a war galley to sail around the treacherous mountains to explore another primative encampment.

The War Galley with settler from Trondheim sails southward past Hladir in preparation of crossing the open sea.

900(4) : Ceremonial Burial discovered and Ozy (along with Fredrik Gråräv), is finally able to send Charis off in a Viking funeral pyre as befitting the past leader. (About time to, he was getting a tad ripe :lol: )

The sages offering different suggestions to Ozy on which direction he should advise them to research next, Iron Working or Mysticism. The warriors want Iron working so they could get better weapons but the clerics think Mysticism would better benefit the people, because while iron may break the spirit of the Viking people should never falter.

After many months of musing on the subject Ozy finally decides on the path of Mysticism (due in 7-8 with 90% science), not because he thinks the spirit of the Vikings is weak but because the clerics have promised to build a great temple to gladden the people once this is discovered.

(Note: This was chosen because I gambled that we'd research Mysticism and Iron working before meeting anyone else. Delaying Iron working might not make us as strong militarily but Mysticism allows us to swap wonders if needed without losing as many shields hopefully.)

The ship with the settler sails south, across the open sea, until it ends up close to the previously sighted land. The other galley, with the warrior aboard sails next to the barbarian village and the warrior offloads, only to find an abandoned village.

Hladir, Viborg and Uppsala changed to temples because they have whale or other "goodies" outside their current culture border and need to expand. Temples complete in 40 shield, library complete in 80.

875(5) : Luxuries increased to 20% so that Aarus will not riot the last three turns it is building a settler. We change from -1 gp per turn to -3 gp now with 500+ in the bank. (We can afford it.)

Ship with settler unloads the settler on the southern island. The only problem was that the drunken captian unloaded the settlers in the wrong spot (oops!). The error was not discovered until after the ship had sailed further around the island and saw the true shape of the island.:( (Sorry about that.)

The warrior loads back aboard the northern ship and the ship sails across the open sea.

850(6) : We recieve word from traders that the Babylonians have completed a Wonderous achievement, the Pyramids!! Ozy is worried about what this could mean to the fate of the Viking people until word is recieved from the northern warrior that the Burgundian tribe had taught him the Code of the Warrior! This is great news! :goodjob:

825(7) : Not much going on except the workers moving to mine the game on the main island to help the production of the Great Lighthouse.

800(8) : Word is received that Moscow, of the Russian people, has built the Collosus(sp?). Ozy is not worried because he knows that eventually all the world wonders will be in control of VIking hands anyway. :viking:

775(9) : Roskilde is finally founded on the southern island amid the ice flows but next to a forest full of beaver dams (fur) and grassland filled with wild-growing wheat.

The settler from Aarhus moves to the mountian nearby to meet up with the elite warrior that defeated the Goths.

Aarhus selects a temple as it's next build item so that the people will no longer fear the deamons of the sea and will have the courage to venture upon the open waves as the warriors aboard the galleys do now.

Science set to 100%.

750(10) : Settler from Aarhus, along with the elite warrior, moves toward the fertile spot charted previously as a rich place to settle.

Ozy sits in his cushioned chair (he is a tad old after 250 years!) and marvels at the accomplishments of the people while under his rule. WOrk proceeds on two great wonders and soon he knows the VIking nation will be strong and glorious, in health, military power and gold from trading the many luxuries they shall have.

Notes to the next leader:

Viborg will complete it's temple in two. This will help with unhappy people and also grow it's borders to get the yummy items two squares away.

Uppsala has 2 happy and 1 unhappy people but will complete it's temple in 2 turns, well before it's next growth. It also needs it's borders to spread to gain access to the items currently unavailable.

Trondheim should (IMHO) use the furs when it next grows to boost production then the fish afterwards to keep it growing faster, you can do otherwise if that's not a good idea. :)

Roskilde can go two more turns as it is, then be swapped to the wheat to grow shortly after it's warrior is completed.

Mysticism will be discovered in 4 turns at 100% science with a -3 gpt penalty. We have over 500 gold still so that shouldn't be an issue.

Next will be a few pictures (if I can attach them correctly) showing possible city sites. Hopefully everyone can chime in with their ideas as well.

(Credit to Sirian for first doing this.)

Thoughts on settling the big island...

Red Dot = 2 game, 1 fish initially. Border bonus = +1 game, +2 fish, +1 whale.

Total = 3 game, 3 fish, 1 whale and it's on a river. Needless to say I like this spot.

Blue Dot = 2 game, 1 fish. Border bonus = 1 game, 1 fish, 1 diamond.

Total = 3 game, 2 fish, luxury. We'll have the luxury sooner with Aarhus so this is 2nd priority after Red Dot IMHO.

Green dot and yellow dot's would be "fishing villages" that would eventually have decent production but not as high a priority as red & blue respectively.

Anyone else have a better plan or something feel free to tell me how wrong I am. :)

This is the island initially discovered by Grey Fox. I agree with his city suggestions on the thin strip of land and in the NW of the current city on the left side of the island but thought to suggest something different on the right side.

Red Dot = 1 game, 1 fish, 1 gold, 2 incense (city is founded on top of one), plus hill defensive bonus if ever needed. Border bonus = 3 game, 1 fish, 2 gold.

Total = 4 game, 2 fish, 3 gold, 2 incense, plus it's on a hill and adjacent to the ocean so it can build a harbor.

Blue dot = 4 fish. Border bonus = 2 gold. With the tundra and high shield producing terrain this will be a decent site as well.

Red dot = good mix of ocean and potential production terrain, little overlap if any.

Barbarian camp = access to 3+ wheat on plains so good food and decent production as well.

I am not sure of these sites as well as the others but shouldn't be that bad.

These islands might only be worth mild attention but seem to be worth founding some cities on, as long as we're not over our limit and the corruption isn't too bad.

Red dot = An ok site, nothing special.

Blue dot = Another ok site.

Light blue dot = Not sure which of these would be best. If the blue dot is settled then the top spot would probably be best as they wouldn't overlap as much and the top spot would get both hills. However, the bottom light blue spot get's both game squares and the whale and also the mountain potentially.

Hopefully everyone else will have better ideas on these, if they are even worth settling.

Good job Ozy! And thanks for taking the time to draw up our now beloved "colored dot" plans :D

Big island:
- I would move blue dot to the SE one to get that extra mountain
and forest for production options.
- Add one more dot in the very NE corner of island as a small fishing village, as a very low priority dot.

Skinny island:
- We may want one city smack in the middle of the skinny
leg, both as a canal to get across the land as needed, and
as a choke spot in case one leg of island gets attacked.
(Low priority if we can found the others first) (Oops, on re-read you did mention this)
- Red and blue spots look great

South island:
- Red dot looks fine
- Add the last dot smack where the barb hut is, catching
all the wheat and not missing any of those fine mined grassland spots. Very high priority, this is a SWEET spot

Scattered ones:
- These look good too. The cyan dot's exact location may depend
on what we end up seeing in that fog to the east

One last comment... when you post your save file it would be a great help to say "xyz is up, and abc is on deck"

shdwlord is up and Jester is on deck, in this case :hammer:

Charis

Oops, on second look the blue dot on the "Big island" should be one square SE, somehow I overlooked that. :)

Thanks for the clue about saying who is next, I needed that. :)

Oh, BTW, to the SW of the South Island is more shoreline, might be worth investigating.

I believe I can safely comment on these fine dot maps. :)

Great job with the Big Island plan, Ozy. I like your blue right where it is, as moving it would get less food, create three overlap, and just how many mountains can that site support anyway? Icy lands, the food is invariably the limitation. Each fish could support one mountain, each game could support one extra forest. Green, on the other hand, could get less overlap, more sea tiles, and a whale, by moving one SE.

South Island plan also looks solid. :goodjob:

I like Grey Fox's plan for the north island better, though. His spots would give two strong cities, while yours would leave the eastern city with virtually no shields.

As for the scattered islands, even the world creator has no comment there. Odin must have been sneaking some incense :smoke: when he fashioned those lands. ;)

Odin wishes to say more, but Freya is shooting him a scolding look so he holds his tongue. :viking: :queen:


- Sirian


ALSO: regarding the temporary loss of attachment options, those due up next either need to make email arrangements, tell me they can't (I can host files at my Civ3 page for a couple days), or ask for delays until this forum problem is corrected.


GREY FOX: have you been paying attention to the RBD10 thread? We'd like to hear from you over there, please. :)

got it

Hrm, question or two and a comment.

Skinny Island: Yep, on second look I like Gery Fox's plan better as well. I had tried limiting the overlap from that city with the plan to put the city on the middle of the skinny connecting piece of land.

Big Island: If I moved the green dot one SE, would it still qualify as being next to the river? I initially wanted it one square SE but thought in a previous game that when I did that the city lost the benefit of the river, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for the comments, glad I didn't mess them up too badly. :)

Ah, the vikings. Probably the civ2 feature I missed the most. But as a descendant of vikings, I noted some things. War Galleys? War GALLEYS :eek: :confused: ??? The vikings went to Iceland, Greenland and America in those boats, you know. That's not exactly what I call sticking to coastal waters. Still, that was probably the best choice available. But religious/militaristic? If any traits fit the vikings, it would be any two of militaristic, commercial and expansionistic. They sailed out into the world and raided, traded and settled. Their gods, however, are imported.
Still, any vikings are better than none. Thanks a bunch.

Ozy: you can right click on the tile to find out if its on the river or not. If there's a gold bonus, it's on the river. In the case of green dot, though, it doesn't matter, because a free aqueduct would not be worth reducing the city's maximum potential population by so many, with less food available.

Melle: NONE of the civs are even close to historically accurate. It's just a game. I could write an essay two pages long on how distorted the American civ is in this game. :) I picked Vikings to fit with the naval/icy theme of the map and tailored it to make the best scenerio, nothing more.


- Sirian

Inherited turn: Roskilde switched from warrior to spearman.

1) 730 Uppsala finishes temple, begins spearman.
Thucydides has completed a list of the wealthiest nations of the world:
1) Vikings
2) Japanese
3) English
4) French
5) Russians
6) Greeks
7) Iroquois
8) Egyptians.
Settler heading for the green dot is inspired by divine wisdom from a mysterious force guiding him, and heads SE of his original destination.

2) 710 Viborg finishes Temple, begins harbor. The Udal formed, begins work on a temple.


3) 690

4) 670 Mysticism learned, masonry began.

5) 650

6) 630 Uppsala finishes spearman, begins Settler. Hladir finishes temple, begins library. The Zulu have finished the Oracle.

7) 610

8) 590

9) 570

10) 550 Masonry learned, Polytheism begun.

Ack!

I was hoping tha settler would go for the Red Dot instead on the big island, but green is better than nothing. :)

Woo hoo, we're the wealthiest, let's hope we can get Lighthouse and GL!

Jester up next.

Thiazi on deck.

I'm a little strapped for time today, so I'll play it out tomorrow.

Jester

Sorry for stalling this game as long as I have; I'm going to have to pass this one. I won't be able to play it until late tomorrow, maybe monday.

So give me a pass here, I'll make it up later when there's a space.

Jester

Originally posted by Sirian
Melle: NONE of the civs are even close to historically accurate. It's just a game. I could write an essay two pages long on how distorted the American civ is in this game. :) I picked Vikings to fit with the naval/icy theme of the map and tailored it to make the best scenerio, nothing more.


No doubt you could. I've seen your two-page essay on why cattle should be irrigated, not mined ;)

I suppose the ends justify the means. Great scenario, I mean. Especially the cool :nono: No, mustn't spoil ;)

I'll play tonight, I just had a busy weekend and forgot to check the forums.

510 BC: We lost a galley and two of our men scouting the isles to the west.

490 BC: The dreaded Romans have completed the Great Lighthouse.

470 BC: Kaupang switches to building a Library.

450 BC: New land spotted to the west.

430 BC: A yellow border has been spotted! We are finally not the only ones stuck in this godforsaken land.

370 BC: Our traders have made contact with the Egyptians and they have spotted French borders. The Egypitans have the wheel and iron working but I will leave it for the next leader to negotiate.

Looks like the gambit of building the Lighthouse in Kaupang instead of in the capital (where it could have been finished sooner) did not pay off. :o

Still a lot of game left to play, though. Really, just getting started. :viking:

:fish: :fish: :fish:

Wow, Thiazi, you sure had an eventful turn! Looks like I will need to sharpen my axe, er my manners and introduce our culture to the Egyptians!

Argh, ack, cough, sputter.... The Great Lighthouse, in the
hands of a "City on the Hill" nation??!

This will not stand!! :ripper:
Rome better be wearing asbestos underwear! We were
unforunately stuck between a 4 shield and a 5 shield city at the time lighthouse was started. More unfortunately, the city picked was already at its max with 4 shields.

Gonna be some even worse sputtering if we also lose Great Lib :P

Oh well, that's why they call them "gambits" :P
Should be an interesting ride.

Charis

When the clan of Justus II returned to the palace in 350 BC, they saw that the glory of the Vikings had spread far indeed. Our realm had doubled in cities since last they had ruled, and we were spread over many lands that were not even known at that time. With growth, however, comes adjustments, and Justus saw that many of the citizens of our beloved capital were unhappy with the crowding. Some even questioned the wisdom of laboring so hard on the Great Library, seeing what had happened in Kaupang when another people built the same project they had worked so hard for. Justus knew, however, that the Library would be a cornerstone of our future, and in order to keep the workers happy and productive, he decreed that henceforth a tenth of all trade would be directed into luxury items to reward the Viking workers. This pleased many in the capital, :)
although some of our scholars grumbled that it would delay their research by two decades :(

Justus, however, had other plans for helping our wise men. One of our voyages had seen a city of another people, and Justus thought he could learn from them, while teaching the greatness of the Viking culture. These people were called the Egyptians, but at first they wanted much gold to share their secrets with us. Our fearless Captain Lind continued east, however, and landed a band of warriors on another island, where they found a city ruled by the French. The French were eager to learn of Viking literature, and taught our captain the process of working Iron into swords and other weapons. They also shared their map of the world in exchange for ours, which included a map of Egypt! :egypt:

Finally, Joan d'Arc, leader of the French people, agreed to sell us a model of the Wheel for only 75 gold. Knowing that we knew where their cities were, and were now friends with the French, Cleopatra was much more reasonable, and offered us her map and 135 Gold for examples of Viking literature, as well as our map. Knowing that the French would probably sell them to the Egyptians if we did not, Lind decided to get what gold he could.

As news of these discoveries reached our homeland, our people realized that there were sources of both Iron and Horses near our cities, and that if we could build roads to them, we could equip our warriors to defeat any foe. Iron was discovered near Viborg, and west of Aarhus, while there were wild horses near Hladir, as well as near a barbarian camp southeast of Roskilde. In order to build a road to the iron ore, and bring it back to Viborg, some workers were sent from Trondheim on a new War Galley. Workers form Hladir were able to build a road to lead those horses to town by 190 BC.

Also, as our advisors studied the French and Eqyptian maps, they noticed markings of other treasures, such as Silk and Spice in Egypt, and Dye and Ivory in France. Our advisors think that someday we might be able to trade our furs or gems for these exotic goods.

By 310 BC, the people of the Udal had completed their temple, and the people of Aahrus, encouraged by their new temple, claimed the mountains to the north, and the gems found there. Meanwhile, Justus remembered the debates among past rulers about where to build new cities on the islands near our homeland. As he looked at the maps, he knew that our explorers had found many great city sites, but that we had no one to go forth and build these cities. He declared it a Viking duty to go forth and establish new strongholds on the islands, and decreed that over half our cities would focus on equipping bands of settlers to travel to new locations. He knew that this would also ease some of the overcrowding in many cities.

In 290 BC, Captain Lind and our exploring Galley discovered several small islands north of the Egyptian lands, and the captain landed some settlers to look for a good colony site, while our warriors explored an old village. They were ambushed by Goth warriors, but prevailed, and reboarded the galley to continue exploring south. The settlers, however, built a new city, called Lindholm, in honor of their captain. He continued south along the Egyptian coastline, and along the way was able to get an updated map, and 140 gold, just for explaining the concept of Polytheism to them. They were not interested, however, in learning of our new techniques for horseback riding.

Justus, knowing of the waste and corruption that seemed to increase as our realm expanded, set his wise men to study a better way to govern our people. :king:

Meanwhile, the garrison of Roskilde had become restless, and knowing that there were horses to the south, decided to explore the old barbarian village. The village was not abandoned, however, and the spearmen found themselves surronded on three sides by Alemanni warriors. The brave Vikings held their ground, however, as first one band attacked and was killed. The second wave caused some injuries, but our spearmen were hardened in victory. As the third wave approached our veterans, they were defeated before they could strike a blow, and our spearmen now have a reputation as an elite unit. With courage and skill such as these men, who will dare to oppose us!

Looking over his reign, Justus felt a sense of satisfaction. The workers in trondheim were close to completing the Great Library, and should be done within the next reign. Although he was not able to build many great cities, or raise armies with the new weapons, Justus tried to prepare his people for a great age of expansion to come. Even now, we have four seperate bands of settlers on their way to new locations, ready to establish more settlements to continue the glory of the Vikings! :viking:

Just a few notes, and a map for my successor, of the house of Charis. You should get the glory of completing the Great Library!
Egypt and France did announce they were starting construction in 330 BC (8 turns ago) but the cities doing the building do not look that productive, and we are within 7 turns of completion now. Keep an eye on Roskilde, I miscalculated the growth there, and sent the garrison off to raid the barbarians. It is wasting its production right now due to corruption, but if you put the people back on the wheat, it will grow before the warrior is done and be unhappy. There is a warrior on the Galley near Hladir, but I'm not sure he would get there any faster. I sent a worker to build a road at the fur near Kuapang, so we have a spare once we are able to trade overseas.

I would STRONGLY recommend breaking out the whip to rush the harbor at Aarhus, it will save us 20 turns in getting those gems to the mainland, as well as food growth. Also, it means the cities of the Big Island will have access to our fur and wine, which should more than compensate for the unhappiness due to whipping. I was going to do it, but on a transition turn I didn't want to make any irrevocable decisions.
(besides, now the people can blame you instead!)

Also, the road to the Iron near Viborg will be done in 3 turns, you might want to switch some of the spearmen in production to swordsmen when that happens. I thought about moving the Army back to our homeland when I sailed the worker up there, but then forgot to, you may want to do that, then load it with a couple of swordsmen. If we put 3 units in the army, it won't fit in the galley, IIRC.

You will get the opportunity to solve the great City Site debates, there are four settlers either at or near good sites ready to build, there has been plenty of discussion on the pros and cons of each site, but looks like my reign was just meant to get them there, I did not have the time to build them. I marked with red dots my votes, for what its worth, (and because I wanted to figure out how to do it!). I know we discussed putting a city midway across the skinny neck of the north island, but I think it is more valuable to cross that and build a city on the incense, gives us another luxury which helps with happiness, and we can go back and get the other site later.

SKOL VIKINGS!

P.S. After Charis, Grey Fox is on deck!

150 BC (0) - The annals showed some benevolent and exciting reigns by our
previous leaders, and a vile and cursed upset by Romans stealing the
Great Lighthouse. We must be sure to get the Great Library.

As Charis the Red II came to power he studying the world maps. His heart
did sink as he saw his own nation, renowned for exploration, excellence
in the ways of the sea, an firce raids, would have virtually no chance
for martial engagements anytime this millenium. Our foes had large island,
and to take them would require an armada of ships *and* troops. If they
were, instead, on the small island, they would be mincemeat. C'est la guerre!
(Who are these "France" people anyway?!)

"Total Units 26, Allowed 36." said his advisors. "What does that mean?"
"My liege, it means we have too few workers (one per island, one per two
cities), too few military units, and for all the PRIME area left to grab
right near the shores of our foes, we have zero settlers in production.

Sir, there is one more thing...

"We have ZERO offensive units. Nil. Nada. Kuch nahi!!"

:blush: Let's see if we can fix that! If four settlers is good, ten is better!

First order of business is to shave GL time down a turn, if we lose that by
one Charis the Red would need to vomit :vomit:

Second order is to go into a mad whipping frenzy. With the Great Library
we may end up in Republic or Monarchy at a moments notice, with our days
of rushing behind us. Harbor in Kaupang, Vet War Galley in Uppsala,
Harbor in Aarhus, Also, Viborg is set to Settler.

Finally, a screeching halt on science! Our current deficit spending only
gets Monarchy in 25 instead of 38, and the GL is due in six turns. If we get
a new gov soon, fine, if not, more chances to whip before those days are gone!
His advisors remind the Red One that the apparent "slowness" with workers and
settlers is due to the weather and coldness, very scarce food, and that the
previous leaders have done all they can... "I know my friend, I know..."
(BTW, excellent narrative write-up Justus!)

130 BC (1) - We'll go with Grey/Odin plan for North Island, after careful
thought. "Fox Nest" is founded on the east end of North Island.
On big island, 'red' and 'blue' are set in motion. 'Barb camp' is a *KEY*
next target, on South Island. Other ships make first step toward expeditions.

110 BC (2) - Kaupang whips temple (to make people less unhappy about whipping!)
Roskilde's warrior pops south a bit to get that hut.

90 BC (3) - Jorvik is founded on red dot of Aarhus Big Island. Azul West is
founded on blue dot of same island. At end of turn SIX new settlers are
being trained. Given our widespread empire and massive corruption, and our
strong gold position now (since no science spending), we may wish to stay
a little longer in despotism to whip these far-out places more. Speaking
of corruption, where are we going to put our Forbidden Palace?

70 BC (4) - :lol: Advisor says the people think we should build FP! Good,
my senses aren't off. From a goody hut, philosophy.

Forbidden incense is founded, on Grey Fox' insense square. It
has good food, good production, enough lack of corruption it can stil make
things. Is the name an omen??? Hard to say! It also has iron connected up
as well as horses. My initial thought there are: temple built naturally
in 15 (will grow in 10). Immediately after you get any shields there, whip
the harbor (although there is a road connecting it to harbor town Viborg)

We snatch a goody hut just steps away from an Egyptian colony, and there
do we learn the secrets of Mathematics.

50 BC (5) - "Great One, you have completed the Great Library in Trondheim!"

[party]

30 BC (6) - Our nervous west-exploring galley makes it across brief seas
after seeing sea currents last turn, and comes across a tiny island,
and two barbarian galleys! Hmm, make that three - the first one is mowed
down by our unique war galley! Sadly, the island is one square and a
mountain, and hence its two whales wasted.

Check diplo, we sell Philosophy to Cleo for World Map and 70 gold,
then Math to backward Joanie out of pity. These two need to do some of
our research, and we have to meet new people :P

10 BC (7) - The barbaric toy boats come a calling, and we send them packing,
becoming elite in the process.

Four luxuries online now. We went 0% lux on 3, now we're "comfty" zero.

10 AD (8) - New coastline seen!!

30 AD (9) - The Coastal city of "Amber Waves" is founded in the very rich
wheat spot on ri island. The new found island ("Charis Isles") is uninhabited.

50 AD (10) -

There's a settler in Uppsala. Build him a ship!! He is thinking about heading
to stake a claim in the scattered island (or new Charis Isles). Up to
the next leader. The settler just out of Viborg is en route for 3 squares
NW of there (or onto the mid-island spot), then follow up with one more settler
to 'complete' the island. A settler from Azul West or Aarhus should found in
the SW corner which catches the iron, two fish and whale. (Hmmm, whip the
ship in Uppsala in 3 turns??) After the last settler, Viborg should make
a barracks and either horses or swords for his Army. Hladir next turn finishes
a settler but will also need a ship to pick him up. Catch both he and the
Uppsala settler and hit two island clumps in same direction.

Before even fully exploring Charis Isles there was a definite current to
South which we peeked cautiously out into. Bingo, coast right away! So now
you're just at the tip of land, bigger than one square and with at least one
non-mountain square. (Also a big barb camp). I'm thinking it CAN'T be much
further to the South of that spot where we'll meet more civs. At that point
you will either want to definitely NOT broker communications, to slow down
our opponents big time, or broker the heck out of it to start getting techs
via the GL. I favor the former. The techs we'll get anyway. Going slow as
the world lets us take advantage of greater skill and greater ships in
colonizing all these islands!

Charis the Red leaves office with the treasury at 800 Gold! :hammer:
Five cities founded, two settlers ready, about five in progress.

Good luck!
Charis

Do we plan to win via the whip, i.e. have some cities do nothing but whip units? If not then why would you want to whip something that will be done in a few turns anyway? After having read most of the RBD (ok, all) games where it was said that whipping any city more than three times (back when it was only twenty turns and not fourty penalty) was bad, so that if any whipping was done it should be considered carefully, why whip when the unit/improvement will be done in less than 10 turns anyway?

I'll be the first to admit I have learned a tremendous amount of good ideas from reading all these games, but would you mind explaining your mind-set or goals Charis? Not being used to using the whip myself (or having to deal with it in game), I only have what I have read here for experience and would appreciate any tips or hints (especially clues, I seem to have lost mine :crazyeyes ) you have to offer, thanks. :)

The less production, the more value in whipping. Charis is talking about staying in Despotism longer to further improve all the new island colonies, which will be stuck at 1 shield production because they are too far from the capital. You can get a temple and a harbor in each with two whippings, and the harbor would bring online some luxuries anyway, which would compensate for the whipping penalty until it wears off.

Now whether or not that's the best plan is a different question, and I must stay out of that aspect of it. :)

:viking:

- Sirian

Excellent questions Ozymandous, and very nicely phrased too, thanks :P

> Do we plan to win via the whip, i.e. have some cities do nothing
> but whip units?

Eep! No, nope, never, haven't done, never will. They tried hard to close that 'endless whipping' exploit in 1.17 and left a small hole. In any case, no that's not the plan at all.

> If not then why would you want to whip something that will be
> done in a few turns anyway?

Hmmm... I don't like to whip when things are done in a 'few' turns, and especially dislike whipping when the shield savings is small (and choke if it's whipped with less than 20 shields to go)
Let me re-read my post and see what was done...
First I may have used too strong a description, a 'whipping frenzy' :P I thought it a good chance we would be out of despotism soon, if not my turn next, so chances to save time with whipping soon to disappear. The Kaupang harbor was to get luxuries onto the island asap, and it's a big ticket item. The War Galley was because we needed settlers and transports, now, not in 20 or 10 turns, and Harbor in Aarhus was probably the most solid whipping, with even Justus suggesting it pre-turn. Later in the turn, Kaupang whipped a temple because we've got far too little culture as a civ (and perhaps to expand the boundary quickly?) A Forbidden incense harbor whip was suggested because it's high shield item, brings lux to others (I wrote that before noticing another road-connected city on island had a harbor actually), and because we may very well need to crank out more vet war galleys at some point. The final comments on "whipping the colonies" and staying in despotism a little longer is just because they will be stuck at one shield production, but food is unaffected by corruption. If you can whip something and save 40 shields, that's 40 turns not a few turns!

> Not being used to using the whip myself (or having to deal with
> it in game)

In my single player games I don't think I used forced labor once, and was likewise concerned at first when I saw it in games.
I also had a big distaste from reading about whipping because the "guides" from the "experts" were all along the lines of endless despot-all-game-whippings. Here's some general tips from my own understanding (feedback requested at points I may be off)

- With core cities and good production, it may not make sense to whip because i) they'll be big size and unhappy soon, and ii) they CAN build things in a "few turns", and finally, because you may get almost no benefit, when you factor in the time it takes to re-grow and the shields lost in that period.

- With 'hopeless' cities, those where corruption means permanent 1 shield output, be sure not to miss every chance you can to whip. In 1.16 that meant whipping every infrastructure building that you truly needed. In 1.17 that means 2, 3, or 4 whips, whatever you can do and not cause the happiness to require a bump-up in the luxury slider.

- With "borderline" cities, at 1 shield but capable of producing more once you get a courthouse, make it a TOP priority to get the courthouse whipped.

- For cities 'stuck' due to terrain, condemned to be a small ice rock city, they won't get large enough to cause big unhappiness problems.

- With terrain or game conditions such that things move very slow (low food, low shields), the 40 turn penalty isn't much. When you are 'finished' with the whip, the next ONE building it will work on may take 40, 60 or 80 turns to build! (In colonies for sure)

So in this game, when I mean 'widespread' whipping, I don't mean the same city endlessly, but not being scared to whip it about twice in almost every city.

The "need" I felt in this specific game to get things going quickly with these rushes was that when I saw the map I thought, our biggest need is to RAPIDLY expand and COLONIZE. The luxuries brought in via harbor outweigh the unhappy citizen. The extra food from the harbor is also great, outweighing the loss in one citizen to improve his food situation. For those colonies, my routine would be: found, one warrior, whip the harbor.

I hope those help, if not by giving sound advice, then at least by explaining my reasoning.

That said, I must offer a criticism of my whipping here, and two criticisms of my general rbd-game whipping exploits.

First, granaries may well have been the very best thing to be the first whip. With a granary in place the time to recover in size after a whip is cut in half. In fact, I should add this to the "general tips" - if at ALL possible, do your whipping in a city with a granary or make that building one of the first items to whip.

Second, I may whip too much in colonies, NOT for factors of unhappiness, food or growth, but for corruption and maintenance costs. If I whip a temple in a game where the civ culture doesn't matter much, then the colony becomes an economic liability. Continuing with harbor or hurts the economy more. I know very well the impact of "one shield" production but the fact of "one coin" income is something I'm just now starting to get. (Sirian has, uh, been "helping" me with this :D - eg in rbd14 it's a new goal of mine to be economically responsible in my colonies)

Third, whipping in low food towns might just be as much or more harm than good. In this game, if there were any valid criticism of whipping it would probably be along these lines. Taking 20 turns to recover in size would be bad if you lose back 40 shields! I don't think I did that, but if so, I need to have a longer-range view :P

If there is :smoke: in the above, do comment, all :P
Charis

I've got the game...

I was trying to write a good and 'pleasant to read'-story but I had no time or put no effort into it, sadly :(...

Fredrik Gråräv takes the position as Leader of the Vikings.

1: 70 AD
A War-Galley is whipped in Uppsala.
The city Westness is founded in the west part of the skinny island.

2: 90 AD
Granary completed in Trondheim. A temple is now being built.
A temple is whipped in the Fox Nest.

3: 110 AD
A Regular Swordsman trained? Who issued this? Must be a reminder of the old Warrior program.
The barbarians on the Crow Island (southmost C-formed island) is fulled with barbarian Archers.

4: 130 AD
A forest cut down on tundra, Gråräv wonders what Charis was putting in his mead, poisonius mushrooms possible, maybe his thought was to build a mine there? Everyone knows that forests are best to be left alone on tundra, maybe this was a wise choice made by Charis. Gråräv is starting to wonder why is mead tastes so strong. (Charis was saved by the furs...)

5: 150 AD
A temple is completed in Trondheim.

6: 170 AD
We learn Code of Laws from books supplied by the French and Egyptians in the Great Library.
The Egyptian city Avaris on a future Viking spot. We have a Temple near, but we should need a Library too, but it costs 80... if we had 4 citizens a major whipping could be made but I don't want to make that decision. The city also needs a harbor.

7: 190 AD
A temple is whipped in Lindholm, the egyptians landed on a part of this Island series that is 3 tiles away from Lindholm.
Two War galleys full of Settlers is on their way to two diffrent 'island-familys'.

8: 210 AD
Settlers are being moved to their positions.

9: 230 AD
The town 'Charis Island' is founded.

10: 250 AD
A harbor is whipped in forbidden Incense
A new island and new borders are Sighted with Fredrik Gråräv II's own boat, the boat is currently in the middle of the Ocean, but dark-blue borders can be spotted.

There is two ships in danger in this moment, one with a Settler and Warrior in the sea to the SW of 'Charis Island', and one in the Ocean far, far east past the France and Egyptians.

I'm currently building a Barrack in Trondheim but that could be changed to whatever (maybe Library), but it has 1 turn left.

Fredrik Gråräv II has currently left his post as a Leader of the proud Vikings, in favor of someone younger, and for a vacation in some warmer lands...

http://medieteknik.bth.se/frst01/vikings.jpg

The current locations of the galleys...

Nice turn GreyFox...

> A Regular Swordsman trained? Who issued this? Must be a
> reminder of the old Warrior program.

Ah yes... the AI ordered it. Was just building a warrior for MP duty, then just before done it gone Iron on line. I figured (correctly? not sure) that the AI considers what your best "offensive" unit is in the game, regarless of experience. So it thinks "They have Swordsmen!" and treat us with more respect. No hard data on whether they think like that, but hey, even our military advisor says "The best unit they have is the Knight" even if it's a conscript and there is only one.

> A forest cut down on tundra, Gråräv wonders what Charis was
> putting in his mead, poisonius mushrooms possible, maybe his
> thought was to build a mine there? Everyone knows that
> forests are best to be left alone on tundra

Hehe, yes the general "forests are best on Tundra" conflicted with "I want that settler and I want him now" to save 10 turns. Cutting a second forest there would be cutting our nose to spite our face (if the first one wasn't, itself!) I'm not sure why, but the settler craze really colored thinking that turn.

> We learn Code of Laws from books supplied by the French and
> Egyptians in the Great Library.
Republic won't be far behind. (Although do we have the economy to support it yet? Probably not)

> A new island and new borders are Sighted with Fredrik Gråräv
> II's own boat, the boat is currently in the middle of the Ocean,
>but dark-blue borders can be spotted.
Cross those fingers!

> There is two ships in danger in this moment, one with a Settler
> and Warrior in the sea to the SW of 'Charis Island', and one in
> the Ocean far, far east past the France and Egyptians.

More finger crossing! I should realized that if I have to cross sea to explore the place that if I find something to settle, a FULL boat will have to do the same.

That right-most exploring is doing the right thing. His mission was from the start, explore-explore until you die, don't come home until we have astronomy!

Let's hope the Deacon is praying for those fine sailors in the ships!! :hammer:
Charis

Er, I will get it when I get home tonight. Have a few papers to write (yah, grad school!:rolleyes:) so may not get the write up (or even turns played) till tommorrow however.

As soon as I get the time to play and post I will. BTW Charis, I still have questions about whipping but I'll reply to that later as well. :)

I was going to ask some questions myself today, but I see that they have already been answered! Still, here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I had wondered about the workers clearing forest, I saw some doing the same during my turn, but they had just started, and I had more important jobs for them to do;)
Then when looking at Charis' savegame, I saw he had some workers doing it as well, and I wondered if I was forgetting something. I always leave forest on tundra, in fact I will usually plant forest on tundra if I have no better options. I can see it in some cases, if the city is highly corrupt, and not getting the use from the extra shields anyway (at least the 10 dont get wasted!), also if it is a low pop city that cant work all the forest squares anyway. The third case is for an urgent project, such as a courthouse, or in this case a settler. I agree Charis, my last turn was a settler crusade as well.

I had also been pondering the extent we would whip in this game, I have done it rarely except in one game as the Germans, being able to whip libraries in one turn was pretty awesome! But that was before 1.17, and I don't have a lot of experience with the new penalties. I agree with the harbors, especially the first on an island, because the benefits outweigh any costs. The additional luxuries should sooth the unhappiness, the extra food can speed recovery, and in some cases (like Aarhus) it allows access to luxuries for the rest of the empire. One unhappy there equals one content in every other city, to me that's a bargain. :)

Other cases where I would consider it are temples where we need the borders, and courthouses, that will often improve the city to the point where it can build the rest. Granaries for me are a case-by-case basis, they can speed recovery, but also speed growth which might make the happiness problem worse. If food is a problem there, I might, but otherwise the food is usually more plentiful than shields, otherwise we wouldn't be whipping there anyway, right?

As for the galleys crossing oceans, I hesitated to do that because of the risks, and at the time we only had two galleys. We need some exploration, and should send out a couple to "Boldly go where no Viking has gone before", but I would be cautious about sending loaded galleys out until we have more settlers available. We must weigh the value of the new city site with locations closer to home that we haven't settled yet, and that could be more productive. However, the strategic value of a foothold on a new island chain might outweigh the risks. I'm not saying I wouldn't send them out, just make sure it is a deliberate decision.

BTW, speaking of galleys, I was thinking earlier, since this is our unique unit, winning a combat will trigger our Golden Age, right?
I assume since we already fought off some barbarian galleys, that a barbarian galley won't do it, but we need to think about the consequences if we do get into a war. I would like to be more developed before we trigger the GA, which hopefully we will, but again we need to consider the timing of it.

Well, this short note turned out to be more than I thought, but everyone has gotten me thinking more about the game, which is always good!

As you can guess by the title I have had a chance to play my turn, but I left my notes and the save at home this morning (at work now). :(

A few things that stood out in my mind from my turn...

1. Losing the Great Lighthouse has been the worst thing that could have happened to us IMHO. Two reasons why.

- Without the Lighthouse the harbors on the far-flung islands are useless as luxury importers so until we get over 50% through the Middle Ages we'll have to spend money on luxuries we might not have otherwise.

- Our Galley's, fierce as they may be in the Ancient Age, are just as prone to sinking in Sea and Ocean squares as the "normal" galleys. Without the ability to get out and explore more before everyone else we've been severely limited in what we can and cannot do.

2. France and Egypt went to war about half-way through my turn. Anyone else think the wild idea of trying to take them both out (take over their islands as they fight each other) and build the FP over there a very good idea? Just a random thought I had.

3. England (I believe it was they) finished the Great Wall during my reign. This doesn't bode well for us since the only two people we're in contact with are just as scientifically backward as we are.. :rolleyes:

That's about it for now. I will post the notes and save as soon as I can. Oh, and if anyone is curious, we lost both of the galley's left on the sea's when my turn began as well as two others I was trying to push out and explore with. Basically we're out of coastal waters to explore without having to cross at least some sea (even the French and Egyptian islands are potentially hazardous since they are 5 squares away so guarenteed one sea square per trip there), so until we get to the point where we can cross safely we have no choice but to keep trying (and losing ships).:(

In order for the game to be lost, the AI's would either have to complete their spaceships, or come conquer you, and either way, plenty of time left to make up for lost ground. You've had some setbacks, but hang in there. I have faith in you. :)

You don't HAVE to keep sending ships on suicide missions, though. You could always build more infrastructure, workers, or troops, right? Then again, without having sent any suicide explorers out, you wouldn't have met any neighbors yet at all. So which is better, I have no comment on that. :) I'll be watching the results closely though.

:viking:

- Sirian

Quite sad, the fate of those intrepid sailors...
It was a risk, but probably one worth taking.
One more civ... if we could have found one more civ...

I would myself probably go to a build up plan. Unless a new island were lush beyond compare, risking settler and escort loss as well as the ship is more than we can handle. More exploration without settlers? Perhaps, but... aren't we now at the point where it would take TWO sea crossings to find more territory?
(I do agree with Ozy's assessment regarding the loss of the Lighthouse. It was no ones fault, we just underestimated the speed and desire with which the AI would build it.)

Build up cash, low sci while we have Great Lib, and when Astronomy is about to come online, load up about 10 ships and get to the edge of sea ready to boogie :P

One thought came to mind, so let me toss it out. We have a most glorious UU, but one which we have squandered (at the risk of being blunt). One thought at making use of them *AND* grabbing all the good colonies would be to gear up for...

TOTAL Naval Domination

- Bombard every foreign port
- Blockade harbors if a civ has just a few
- Totally cut off supply lines to foes' colonies
- With the ports bombarded and kept as size one cities,
they can never get out enough ships to break our strangle lock
until Flight!
- If domination can be effected, we can colonize pretty much all islands in the game in the Navigation to Flight era (pretty long)
- We can also with full impunity take over any current colonies not on the mainland of our foes

Only with the Viking civ and this UU would such an option even be feasible -- the entire world will be angry or at war with us.
How would we do this?

- While building basic infrastructure at a rate non-zero but not great, make harbor-built War Galleys the main unit produced. Forget science and use lux for happiness. Crank TONS of ships, such that all known foes can have about 3 War Galleys parked at every coastal city, bombarding them.
- Locate the city of the Great Lighthouse and take it by force
- With either the Lighthouse or the advent of Astronomy, continue this prosecution to every other civ
- To be able to support such a navy, homeland defense would be scanty in the extreme, and improvements that cost more than they generate would not be built (yet)
- Once the ships are in place to start the first wave of bombardment, we're probably in Monarchy for the rest of the game. War weariness from repeated minimally successful bombardment would be MASSIVE.
- We would start, pre-Astronomy with our 2-3 unlucky neighbors
- The key to how this works is that other civs have limited 'coastal' cities (this is an assumption that would break the idea if wrong), and once you get them to the point of defeating existing units, you can bombard to 1 with impunity, and once you do that, your ship-making ability is tenfold higher.
- With every civ stuck on its mainland only, we will have a massive resource and luxury advantage. When oil is found, make beachheads and capture all the oil in as many civs as we can. Without oil, our advantage is unbreakable!
- By the time flight DOES come around, we've upgraded our navy and started to replace one form of domination with another. Our battleships and carriers will one day rule the seas!

If you think this is feasible, it would make for a *unique* game. If instead you think it's weedy, we can proceed in a more standard fashion. Still.... I would always be left wondering, "what if only..."

Thoughts??!
Charis

I have never played a game were I totally dominated the seas, I have never even blocked harbor cities.

And bombarding... never done that so much...

So I say, yea let's try that Idea... don't know if we could grab the G.lighthouse though, who built it anyway?

Naval blockade would stop their trade, but the War Galley only has 1 defense, so it would be owned in any fight where the enemy has the initiative. Frigates would sink one of the defenders, and the AI would then return the ship to port and repair it. Plus... where the AI's build any artillery units, they would bombard back. Wouldn't happen in a lot of places, but Charis is suggesting a strategy that gives every advantage to the enemy, and even a few holes in the dragnet would crumple the effectiveness of the blockades. Plus the time to get reinforcements to where they are needed... and you're going to try to do this against twelve opponents? :smoke:

I'll say this. I designed the map so that either victory condition COULD BE winnable without having to get a particular wonder, or any wonders at all. But even your closest neighbors required either the Lighthouse... or Astronomy, for safe crossings into their territory. By losing the Lighthouse, you're either going to keep sinking lots of ships, or accept that your chance at ancient glory crumbed along with your unfinished Lighthouse and hunker down for the longer haul. The War Galley can keep THEM from invading your lands, and keep you alive, perhaps even against ironclad-escorted galleons, but an offensive global blockade? Riiiiight. :)

Building lots of War Galleys may or may not be a good idea, but taking on all dozen AI's at one time with an Us-vs-All-of-Them war is dramatically overestimating your reach, don't you think? Even if by divine intervention you pulled it off, what use would all those island resources be with no trading partners? :lol:


- Sirian

Total Naval domination is a *very* interesting idea. I can honestly admit I have rarely done much with navies in any of my games as the games are usually decisively handled one way or another by the modern age. (Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug! :D)

I am not sure how well we'd be able to blockade the Civ's however, based on the two others we have seen thus far. France and Egypt both have at least 3-4 cities each on the coast (probably more, I didn't pay really close attention to them), so it would, in my opinion, be better to load galley's with troops and take over the cities rather than spend the same amount of units simply trying to blockade them.

I still like the idea, so I'd be happy to join in a "strategy discussion" if we do that.

Oh, to answer Sirian, no we don't *have* to build the ships, but we'd not be proper Vikings :viking: if we did otherwise would we? :)

By the way, Trondheim (when I get the save loaded for the next person to play) is done with all infrastructure now, is size 8 and still growing and can crank a galley every three turns. At least we have a good place to start building our navy. :)

(Would be interesting to start the game over and see how the game would be if we did have the GL tho', if that's at all possible).

If we took over a large landmass or two (France and Egypt?) and plopped a FP down with the help of a (hopeful) Great leader I could see us becomming a world player like everyone else. :)

I guess I have always been a bit of a mizer when it comes to sacrificing my ships, but I would suggest we follow the strategy of building on all the known islands that we can safely reach. There would be no risk of losing our galleys in doing this. The reason I hate losing galleys? Its a simple investment problem. How many turns did we spend building each of those galleys? Now, to settle more islands quickly, we will have to rebuild them. If this were a game of chess, how many turns have we let our opponent move without making a move ourselves? Fortunately, in civ, the results of this aren't nearly as bad, but it still puts us behind expodentially. Lets say it only takes us 3 turns to build a galley now. The city that can build them and have a settler meet them sends the galley out to found a new city. That city eventually builds a settler to get on the galley, 3 turns later than it would. We have now lost 6 turns. Every city to be founded from any of these cites would each cost us an additional 3 turns throughout the game. If one of these future cities adds a luxury that would keep just 1 person in other cities happy, well, lets just say that the loss of 1 galley early in the game when their are islands to settle can easily cost us hundreds of turns of production if it sinks.

Thanks to the earlier efforts of Charis and others there were FIVE cities founded on my turn.

We have, at most, one city position left that we can get to "safely" without having to end at least one urn on a sea square.

I hate losing ships and the time and production they represent but IMHO we *must* take the chance because we know for sure some other civ's are apparently way ahead of us in research (since England built the Great Wall during my turn). We can't wait for steam power and the rails it provides to make transport easier, ships are all we have and since we lost the Lighthouse we need to get to Astronomy or Navigation ASAP.

By the way, to even attack anyone else right now we'd have to leave all of our ships at least one turn in the open sea and at risk of sinking. To the bold go the spoils, otherwise we're simply a very widely scattered nation waiting to be conquered.

I hope a lot of questions about our situation will be answered when I post the update shortly. :)

To start I'll say that this will not be that narrative since I'm a tad tired, but I want the game to progress as quickly as possible so this goes up tonight instead of tommorrow. Oh, and no questions about whipping anymore Charis, my earlier questions arose because you were whipping when some cities had less than ten turns to build items. Having whipped some cities this turn (time will tell if that was a :smoke: decision or not) I think I better understand what you were doing.

And away we go...

250 - IT: The Udal changed from harbor to settler so the last area on Big Island (BI) can be settled. Azul West changed to a temple.

260 - 1: The south galley faces three barb galleys and the viking warriors prove why all other men quake when they see the square sails of the Viking ship. Elite Galley with ONE health left sinks all three barb galleys.

-Trondheim builds barracks, starts library.

-Forbidden Incense builds harbor, starts granery.

-Jarrow founded on South Island.

-Embassy's established with Joan and Cleo. ROP with Egypt nets 50 gold, ROP with France nets 1 gp (but we need it anyway to get back to where the undiscovered Civ's are.)

-Both galley's left at sea disappear under the waves. Much morning ensues.

270 - 2: Jorvik builds a temple, starts granery.

280 - 3: Kaupang builds galley, starts granery.

- Fox Nest builds warrior, starts harbor.

- The Udal builds settler, starts granery.

- Skara founded on BI.

290 - 4: Lindholm grows and changes production to harbor. Harbor then whipped.

- Lux bumped to 1.

300 - 5: Lindholm builds harbor, starts granery.

- Exploring galley lost at sea.

- Aarhus builds worker, starts another.

- Azul West whips it's harbor, due next turn.

- Ravening Enge founded.

310 - 6: Hladir finishes granery, starts courthouse.

- Azul West finishes harbor, starts temple.

- Westness builds temple, starts harbor.

- Birka founded.

- Uppsala granery whipped, due next turn.

320 - 7: Egypt declares war on France.

- Uppsala finishes granery, starts library.

- Viborg builds settler, starts worker.

- Roskilde builds warrior, starts temple.

- Jarlshof founded.

330 - 8: Sigtuna founded on Skinny Island.

340 - 9: Amber Waves builds warrior, starts temple.

- Charis Island builds warrior, starts warrior.

- Fox nest whips a harbor.

- Jorvik whips granery.

- Kaupang whips granery.

350 - 10: Trondheim builds library, starts war galley.

- Kaupang finishes granery, starts barracks.

- Fox Nest finishes harbor, starts granery.

- Jorvik finishes granery, starts harbor (can be whipped again next turn maybe).

- London builds the Great Wall.

-------
Notes:

I did a lot of whipping this turn it seems. The hope was to whip the few things that would do the best thing for each situation. I am sure I probably messed up somewhere in there, so if someone see's what could have been done better let me know. :)

Ah, a lot of cities founded this turn, what is the max we are allowed with this map size before we're penalized??

Charis Island desperately needs to have it's borders expanded due to it not getting the near-by fish when it was founded (growth is extremely slow!!). Hopefully it can get a temple there one day.

Most of the whips I did were in cities that could access the 4 luxuries we have, so the damage wasn't as bad, IMHO. Be careful when whipping any citiy not connected to the mainland with coastland water otherwise it could be bad.

Here's the save, if anyone has comments or questions let me know.

(I hope I didn't mess up to badly. :))

-Ozy

EDIT:

Forgot to add the roster.

Jester <----- On deck
Thiazi
Justus II
Charis
Grey Fox
Ozymandous
shdwlord <----- Up next

got it

Inherited: Switched Jorvik to courthouse.
Egyptians begin the Hanging Gardens.

1) 360 Lindholm grows to size 2, with an unhappy person, and content person. Switched to warrior.

2) 370

3) 380 Forbidden Incense switches to a settler for the scattered islands. Trondhiem finishes galley, begins a settler for islands to the southwest.
The Egyptians are building the hanging gardens (again?)

4) 390 Galley lost in trecherous waters trying to find a way to the dark blue border.

5) 400

6) 410 Trondheim finishes settler, begins spearman. The French have construction.

7) 420

8) 430 Monarchy learned, currency ordered. The Vikings fall into anarchy. Cities think about revolting until Shadow Lord pronounces himself King of the vikings and establishes a feudal form of government. Charis Island rushes a temple. Skara rushes a temple. Ravning Enge rushes a temple. Lindholm rushes a library. Science set to 50%, currency in 10 turns.

9) 440

10) 450 Jarlshof rushes temple. Uppsala finishes settler.

Summary: I started up with research again, even though we have the great library, because we know 2 other civs, who know no one else. Those 2 civs are still at war, and are not trading techs between themselves. Currency will give our economy a big boost, and I had no idea how long it would have taken to get from the GL. Other than that, I just tried to build up our infrastructure/road system.

I'll play this one tomorrow, when I've got the time.

Jester

We seem to be a little stuck. I spent my entire turn building infrastructure. We've got a bit of a "whip deficit" from whippin' cities, but by the end of next turn, I think people will have forgotten about that. I didn't whip anything on my turn, but it's not too late for my successor.

France and Egypt made peace. That was the most exciting moment of my turn; the rest was caretaking.

We're researching engineering, to milk the GL for all its worth. We're fairly wealthy, and nothing seems to be happening.

I think we're a little stalled here. The GL (the boat one, not the tech one) would have helped that, but it's too late for that.

So good luck, and I hope we get to interesting things soon!

Jester

I'll play later today.

My turns were generally spent working on infrastructure and after three failed attempts, yes you heard me right, at settling the gem-laden islands to the south, much of our production has been focused towards responding our decimated navy. I knew that we didn’t have the Great Lighthouse, so we were always in danger when sailing out of the lightest zone but in two turns, we lost our southern fleet of three ships and three settlers. I knew it was risky to try and expand to the south and my downfall was probably sending one of my ships to explore another possible continent but for now the Gods do not wish for us to know what lies in the darkness. The Hanging Gardens were started in Uppsala and I’ve made quite a few other city improvements. I did not make any efforts to discover who lies within the mysterious blue border but we should probably send one, if not two ships to explore. My gut instinct tells me that they are either the Germans or the Persians, both are scientific and maybe they can bring new technologies to our land. For now our strategy, should be to prepare for a war once we get navigation. I feel that the Egyptians would be a prime target for invasion but at this stage of the game, we are not in a good position to go one the offensive. I’m perfectly happy letting the French and Egyptians continue to weaken each other and when the time comes, we can finish them off. Here is a turn summary but not too much happened that was worth recording. I also, played half a turn longer than I was supposed to but it was an accident.

570 AD: The Hanging Gardens are started in Uppsala.
580 AD: We have lost two galleys trying to settle lands to the south.
590 AD: A third galley is lost in an effort to scout what appeared to be a new continent.

Sorry for the lack of success during my turns but not doing anything with the galleys would have been just as much of a waste as not using them, or at least I am trying to convince myself that :)

In my own game of Vikings, I got the Great Lighthouse, but in a burst of :smoke: smoke :smoke: I decided that the Great Library was boooring. I always went for it. But the Oracle now, I had never built that. I followed the vision in the smoke and switched wonders.

I wonder who's worst off.

Justus up, Charis on deck?

I will play this evening, I think we will have to reach another nation to make our Great Library kick in. Here's hoping for calm seas!

Has anyone tried to explore to our west? I know we saw some borders on the other side of france and egypt, but I know I didn't check the other side.

Maybe we'll be lucky and some relatively close civ will be in that direction. :) If people have already checked that direction then nevermind. :)

If nothing else we should have a good chance to build up infrastructure and troops until someone finds us or the people we know suddenly get smarter. :)

(Maybe we'll do like RBD7 and get 18 techs at once!! Although we'd probably not get them until all the wonders they allow had been built. :()

EDIT:

Almost forgot, in my opinion we shouldn't send any more settlers out on boats exploring. By the time we find any islands they will probably either be settled or else be too far away to be of much use for anything anyway. Best to just waste the production on the lost ships, if we send any out at all. If nothing else we should make a strong War Galley navy since they can upgrade to transports, which will allow us to kick butt later.

I wonder if we will ever find a decent place to put the forbidden palace?? I'd hate to put it on any of the islands we're on now, just because knowing Sirian there wil probably be some huge continent here somewhere, with the rest of the civ's all on it just waiting for us to conquer and plop the forbidden palace on. :) Or maybe just to work on tech as a group and come kick our butt's at once. :p

As King Justus III ascended to the Viking throne, he knew that his great nation faced many challenges. All of our recent attempts to set out and colonize new islands had met with disasters, while the colonies we already had built were overrun with corruption and waste. Even the new government, an organized monarchy that King Shadowlord I had established, did little to keep our subjects focused on their assigned tasks. Meanwhile, the citizens of our home island were disgruntled, needing constant entertainment to keep from rioting. Finally, our fleet had been depleted to one surviving galley, which sank before he could even send it orders.

Therefore, King Justus decreed that his would be a reign of law and order, and that he would rebuild our fleet to its previous glory, to go forth and explore new lands, before sending more colonists. He also decreed that a tenth of all revenues would be distributed to the people. This cheered many in the home islands, but the corruption in the far-off islands meant that there was not enough revenues to distribute. Justus then decided to focus his efforts on improving those cities nearest our homeland, letting those colonies further away just build more galleys for our fleet, since they could not afford to maintain any other buildings anyway.

Knowing that the corruption was rampant, it would take drastic measures to overcome it. Justus went on a spending spree, going through over half of the treasury to build courthouses in three colonies, Lindholm, Roskilde, and Forbidden Incense. He spent most of the rest to complete 4 War galleys, as well as a temple at Sigtuna. He made other decisions as well. Although the people of Uppsala had begun work on a magnificent Hanging Garden, many were thirsty and cried out for an aqueduct. By reassigning the workers in the capital, Justus saw they could quickly finish the marketplace they were building, and start on the Garden in Trondheim and still complete it sooner than the people of Uppsala could have. Therefore, Uppsala and Kaupang both began to build aqueducts, and they too built marketplaces to allow the people to trade in luxuries. Hladir, meanwhile, continued to build War Galleys.

Shortly, the Galleys were completed, and set out on their voyages. Many towns began to train workers, as our scientists discovered the science of engineering, allowing our workers to plant new forests on barren patches of tundra. By 690 we had lost another galley sailing south of Charis Island, but Justus continued to spend the treasury to complete two more galleys. Westness completed their courthouse, and the people of Trondheim were so grateful for the direction of Justus that they came forth to build additions onto the Royal Palace. This happened three more times over the next 50 years.

As we completed the 7th Century, times looked dark for the Vikings. Two more galleys were lost, and a third in 710. However, that year one galley saw signs of land to the west, and the flutter of a light blue flag. Justus waited anxiously for word if that last galley would make the crossing safely, or be lost like so many others. Finally, in 720 AD, came word that they had arrived off the coast of Chengdu, a city of a new people called the Chinese. Although their leader, Mao, was annoyed that we had entered their territory, he was very interested in our new engineering techniques. He was willing to pay us 20 gold, plus 5 more per decade, showed us maps of their lands, and introduced us to Ghandi of the Indians. Ghandi also wanted to know of our engineering, and wanted to trade us knowledge of a new government, The Republic. However, Justus knew it was only a matter of time before the secrets of the Republic would be found in our Great Library, so he insisted on gold, and recieved 90 gold, and the promise of 22 more per decade. Justus also offered this knowledge to the Egyptians, who offered 40 gold and 12 per decade, and the French, who appeared bankrupt, and could only offer 10 gold.

Justus used some of this new wealth to complete a courthouse in Amber Wave, and galley in Lindholm. He also decreased our spending on research, knowing that with four different nations to trade with, we would soon discover many of their secrets. (He also needed to take a few turns to replenish the treasury, since he had been so extravagant in his spending) ;)
Just as Justus had predicted, his librarians soon told him they had learned of this new Republic, as well as the Feudal system we had been researching. He then directed them to focus on modern Inventions.

During the remaining years of his reign, Justus continued to push galleys out into unknown territory, but none became lost! One galley to the southwest of Charis Island, however, discovered a village of nearly 30 barbarian war parties, as well as three barbarian galleys. Although the crew was able to defeat the first two galleys, the new veterans's ship was badly damaged, and the third galley finished them off. Still, Justus looked back on a reign that began with no Galleys, and he now had 9 under his command. He sent one north toward Fox Nest, where he had also ordered his Army. He was building a barracks there, where some warriors could be retrained as swordsmen, or maybe some horsemen could be trained, then wait for better equipment. That will be a decision for another ruler to make.

Three galleys continue south along the French and Egyptian coasts, looking for that mysterious dark blue border. The far east islands, Jarlshof and Ravning Enge, continue to build new galleys, but they are slow, and may need to be bribed to finish early. Trondheim is nearly finished with the Hanging Garden, although other nations are also said to be building such a Wonder. Some have thought we should spend our time building a great academy of War instead. The people of Hladir have begun work on a Colleseum, like that at Trondheim, but they could build a wonder as well. Many of our other core cities, on Big Island and North Island, are working on marketplaces, to get more benefit from the luxuries that we have. Uppsala and Kaupang are nearly completed with their projects, and they may be a good place to start building up an army, so we would be ready when we decide to attack one of our neighbors. Our cities in the south and east islands do not have access to the iron that they would need to train swordsmen. These and many other decisions await our new king, Charis III.:king:

EDIT:

P.S. Ozy must be psychic! I had already downloaded the game, and come to many of the same conclusions, before seing his post tonight! As it turns out, he was right, we did find civs to the west, although it did cost several galleys, but it will be worth it.

This is focused on our homeland. I tried to look at our empire by regions/islands. Our home island, and Hladir, is our core. All four cities have double-digit shield production, and all either have or soon will have all the main improvements, including aqueducts. (I look at colloseum as an optional, at least until it gets closer to 12 pop, like Trondheim). They can crank out units or Galleys in 2-3 turns.

The West Island (Big Island) is getting there. Two cities, Aarhus and Jorvick, don't need aqueducts, and they are both working on marketplaces. This island, with the gems, generates a lot of cash for us, and is productive. It will be more so as more forests are planted and mountains are mined. Corruption is not too bad, especially in the eastern cities, and it is connected to our homeland by coast, giving it access to all luxuries and resources.

The North Island (Skinny Island) is a similar situation, although all cities need aqueducts. Most cities are dependent on sea tiles, so production is not quite as good, except for Fox Nest as those mountains get mined. This island seems well positioned to build troops to send against Egypt or France. It is also connected by coast.

The South Islands (Roskilde etc., and Charis Island), are not connected by coast, so they do not have access to the main luxuries. Also, corruption seems to be worse here. They do have horses, so could build up some horsemen, but no iron for swordsmen or knights. I built some Courthouses here, and then concentrated on Galleys, rather than build a lot of improvements that they can't pay for. (I know they don't actually pay by city, but I like to try and keep maintenance somewhat in line). This would be a good staging area, or a settler farm once we can sail to the southwest islands safely.

Lindholm is a special case, due to it's strategic location. I paid for a courthouse here to give it at least some production, and it has a temple and library for culture. This is a great base for any kind of offensive against Egypt, we must keep it. May want to build a barracks to use for recovering troops, although no resources to build Swordsmen/Horsemen/Knights etc.

The Far East Islands, Ravning and Jarlshof, are totally corrupted, and without luxuries. Once Astronomy gives us sea trade, or if we went into another government with less corruption, they might be more useful, but for now I look at them as just outposts, where we can build or buy extra galleys for exploring, and didn't want to sink much investment into them.

Anyway, that was just some of my thoughts for why I did what I did, obviously it is subject to change by the next ruler. But I would like to discuss overall strategy more, so we can be working toward the same goals. For example, there has been talk of invading Egypt at some point, and that seems like a logical step, but if so when? Wait for Chivalry to build Knights? If so, we should build some horsemen now, so we can upgrade them quickly and sail over before the Egyptians get knights. I did not sell them feudalism, mainly for that reason. But we could move our empty army closer, and have some units ready to load into it. Or do we wait until we have astronomy, so we dont risk our ships loaded with troops. Even Lindholm is a risky voyage.

BTW, I did notice that the Egyptians have Monotheism, so we should get that soon through the GL. Also, I did not trade communications between China/India and France/Egypt, so we could be a broker, hopefully that will last after the GL expires, and we can continue to benefit from it.

Also, as far as wonders go, I noticed that Egypt started building HG back in the 300's, Alexandria is only size 8, but has several mined hills, so they could be ahead of us for all I know. China and India are also building it, in Shanghai and Delhi, but they dont look as well developed as Trondheim. Shanghai is size 8, mostly tundra and forest, Delhi is size 12, but all irrigated plains. With Trondheim cranking out 20+ shields/turn, we still have a good shot. If we miss, we can switch to Sun Tzu. Again, China and India are building it, not sure when they started, since they already had feudalism when I met them.

Anyway, here is the map of the central empire as of 750 AD. China and India are in blue and grey, respectively, on the left side of the world map.

:viking: :king: :viking:

Yeah baby! That thought worked well, way to go Justus!:goodjob: :D

As mentioned previously, I did wonder about the West once I passed off the game (thinking "Why the heck did I concentrate so much on east of France/Egypt?") but I guess like most I was to intent on exploring what we had a tantalizing glimpse of instead of looking for something new. :p

Question:

We do have Republic correct? Have we switched to that yet? If no, then my vote would be to do that ASAP because 1) I think corrpution may be less with Republic (almost positive that's the case but not 100%) and 2) all the extra trade!!!

With Republic we will get even more money than we are now which will do better for us once the Library expires.

Engineering will allow us to be logging fools. (I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day.:lol: ) Maybe now some of this ice will be a little more usefull, not to mention all those "bare" game squares. Talk about a production boost! :)

Great turn, I can't wait to see what happens next. :D

EDIT:

Oops, forgot something. Sun Tzu should NOT be a priority for us unless we do it just to deny some other civ of it (if possible anyway). The reason is that it only benefits the civ's on the same land mass as where it's built. Since we have only three cities on that island it would be an awful waste or production, IMHO. Better for us to get Sistine or Leo's if possible.

Oh, and regarding colleseums... Unless a city is really unhappy I wouldn't bother, since we have at least three luxuries (4?) then with market places two people will be happy. Add cathedrals (cheaper and better culture) and we'll be set. our cities might all have a little unhappiness but nothing that bad.

Umm...I've not been following this too closely, so my apologies if I missed it, but who is the light green civ just at the eastern border of pink (France, I presume)? Contact with them yet?

Arathorn

Originally posted by Arathorn
Umm...I've not been following this too closely, so my apologies if I missed it, but who is the light green civ just at the eastern border of pink (France, I presume)? Contact with them yet?

Arathorn

I think that is a yellow Egyptian City.

Charis up right?

Arathorn, that city east of france is actually an egyptian city, its just that the yellow looks greenish in the picture. There is another civ in that direction, dark blue borders, that we have not yet been able to contact. (Might be Babylon, they built Pyramids, I believe, according to the F7 key).

Another thing I noticed in looking at the wonders (F7), the Zulus have captured Rome! They have the Oracle and now the Great Lighthouse. They must be close together, probably to the south.

Ozy, I did plant several forests during my turn, and there are workers planting some more, especially on those game tiles!

I agree on Sun Tzu, as a militaristic society barracks are cheap anyway. What is everyone's thoughts on Leonardo's? I have found it very useful, especially before a tech change, to build a lot of older units, then pay to upgrade them quickly. (i.e. build horsemen, then pay to make them all knights when we get chivalry). One disadvantage in our current situation is they can only be upgraded in a city with access to iron (or whatever), which means they will still be in our home islands, but it was a thought.

Most of the whipping has passed from memory, a few cities still out there have unhappiness, mostly fringe cities w/o access to our luxuries (4). An average city w/ luxuries, a temple, and a garrision unit will have 3 happy, one content, and up to 3 unhappy without a problem, pop 7. Those cities that grow past that need a marketplace (adds 2 smileys), and a second garrison, that will take them to 5 happy, 5 unhappy = pop 10. With the 10% luxuries, you might get to 11-12 even without the coloseum. Hanging Gardens will be a good boost when we finish it, should be able to get most cities to 8 as is, 12 with marketplace.

The problem is the distant cities (South and East Islands) who dont share the luxuries. Their corruption is too high to get much benefit from the lux rate either. They basically get their temple and a garrision unit, giving them 3 content, and then have to go into entertainers. HG will be a help for them, but the key to making them useful will be Astronomy for sea trade.

Finally, as far as Republic goes, I did not want to go into anarchy until we complete Hanging Gardens. I forgot we were religious, I don't know if we would still lose a turn, when we are this close I say finish it first. Also, all those garrisons will no longer provide happiness, we will need the HG to make up for that, and probably bump up the lux rate too. That will be up to the next ruler, I guess.

This went long for a short note;)

Got it... might be tonight, else tomorrow night.

Should be interesting -- good job.

Charis

750 AD (0) - Charis the Red finds himself at mixed feelings about the state
of the empire. Fate has been cruel. Posseiden has sunk more ships and settlers
than can be counted. Perhaps it is that we forsake the sea, the lighthouse, and
yet now, our research line is purely infantry, it ignores the line leading
up to Astronomy and Navigation and the benefits of Magellan. His early plan
for naval domination was not just spurned but ridiculed. Surely those who
watch over the sea are not ignorant of these facts...

Recent leaders have done well, at least as well as fate allowed them to do.

Yet there is talk of invading a closely knit, road connected nation (Egypt)
with nine size 6+ cities with no safe route to them, three ships in the area
to transport, a single swordsmen, no fast attack unit, and 3 pikes.
Charis the Red fears that our greatest import might in fact be W*E*E*D!!
Our Military advisor says we are weak compared to them, nevermind against
a home turf advantage, and they have a better government. The *shape* of
lands we want to conquer is china or india, which are thin and scraggly,
lots of choke points and no way to send reinforcements. Also, with our
war galleys, forget homeland attacks and go for small-island takeovers.
Still... that's not even an option until we have safe routes, until we've
snagged the *empty* islands first, and have a real army to put inside the
boats. It's going to be hundreds of years yet, folks. (This are merely the
thoughts of the Red, no doubt there is a young general who could prove
him wrong... or... wreck the struggling nation :P )

Some minor changes before we get too far. Charis Island switches to harbor
before war galley, neither wanting to build non-vet ships, nor wanting to
starve or be left out of the luxury loop. Ditto Jarlshof, Amber Waves,
Ravning Edge. We're 'allowed' more units and are considered weak, so let's
at least built that up some.

Colosseums are vetoed unless they've gone too far. Cathedrals are cheaper,
more culture, and if we would get over to the *SEA* research path, are
coming up soon. So Hladir is put on placeholder for Leo. Lindholm to aqueduct.
Fox Nest to aqueduct (again, not seeing invasion soon, and poor shield output,
so not the right time for barracks) Sci spending 30% with the Great Library.
Reluctantly the veto stamp comes out again. ("Uh, sir Charis the Red, easy on slamming the no-sea path sir, that path goes through Education which would be, uh, problematic" "Er... yes, of course, I knew that... belay that rant! :P )

On the marketplaces and courthouse in Skara, excellent choices :P

Hmm, could we cut off the luxury? Forget the corrupt colonies, they can
entertain. Kaupung and Hladir are the only two key cities that would
revolt. 0% vs 10% is 20 gpt, not insignificant. Entertainer on the former
has minor impact and on the latter, there's a one food one shield tile
which gives a wasted shield, so using it to entertain is no loss in production.
Savings: 20gpt, now surplus is 172 per turn.

Ships currently exploring will continue to do so, but we'll not send more
sailors out to die under this watch...

760 AD (1) - Well the people like that last phrase... they build onto the palace.

Sonofabiscuit! Alexandria of Egypt completes the Hanging Gardens. The Indians
cascade to SunTzu, joining London and Beijing in the race. Delhi might just
be pretty advanced on that.

No embassies there? What better time to check?! Beijing has iron and horses,
and 3 lux, due to complete SunTzu in 27 with 15 shields per turn. It's on a
spot much like us, and making good use of forest and hills. Delhi, otoh,
is in a hill and forest-free plains and coast area, a mere 9 shield output,
and not due to SunTzu for 44 turns. Also three lux, and four spear defenders.
We know nothing about London. Trondheim switches to SunTzu, due in 20.
Hrmm, ok, so we DO have to land Invention and switch to Leo in less than 20.
The placeholder in Hladir isn't due for 41 and should catch another wonder.

The army reaches Fox Nest, and goes to sleep.

770 AD (2) - Monotheism is mastered by our Sooths. Fate smiles not once but
twice this round - we get a non-coast crossing safely for a change.
Hmmm... the feudalism path won't expire the GL, so let's accelerate that one!
Sold to Egypt for world map, all her gold (56) and 20 gpt. France is too poor
to pay, and does without.

830 AD (8) - Lots of exploring past few turns, and a few of the last scout
ships go down (one got rather deep first, east of India). Finally, one
sees a colored border, light green, and does NOT sink! This round we make
contact with...

The Greeks! Alex actually contacts us first, and we see he has communication
with English, Romans and Zulu, sold for a mere 475 gold and 8 gpt ('mere' due
to our forsaking science and luxuries for so long... we had over 1000 gold)
Done! We strictly avoid selling world or even territory map, and *definitely*
not communication with anyone. This crossing was a "double dip" in the ocean
and unlikely repeated. This galley won't make it home until Navigation :P
He had Theology and Invention, but that should fly out of Library soon.
Our advisor notes he is a betrayer of our delightful friends the Zulus.

Rome steps up to the plate next. Utter peon in dark ages, nothing to offer.
Of course Liz comes next, offering Theology for 500 gold. No thanks lizzie,
that's free for me.

Also midround, we learned the secrets of theology. Alas, Education is next
on that branch 8-\ Let's hope for luck on other branch soon. The Egyptians
start Sistine (ah that's who research it).

But wait, not just Theology... Invention and then... Education!

:eek: End of the Library. (At end of turn anyway, any more right now????!)

Yes! Gunpowder. Banking. That's five techs. Not Cuba, but nice -- I was sure
hoping for a mini post-Education windfall by contacting some civs just before
the 'locals' figured out education. [dance]

The people think this is worth another palace addition. Ok, back to actually
spending on science full time. Astronomy is due in about 8 turns!

Saltpeter check? Yes! Already connected via road to Trondheim. Was greeted
with a choice to build Musketeer?! That's it though. Egypt doesn't know it
has it next to Thebes. France has NONE. (Target acquisition alert!! :P )

I establish an embassy in London to check progress on SunTzu. 30 turns,
we've got 'em beat. So Leo, or whichover one we choose and have the tech for
in 20 rounds, is ours at Trondheim :D (London puts out only 7 shields, looks
to be on an island like 'Infantry' and has *NO* infrastructure. NONE. Just
the Great Wall. Zululand's Zimbabwe also has zero infrastructure, just a wonder
(The Oracle). However it's cranking out 12 shields/turn and is due for
Sistine in 25 turns. 5 lux but no marketplace. 4 Impi defense. They have salt,
iron and horse. Athens of Greece has 3 entertainers, rax and courthouse ONLY
(what goofy city planning the AI has!), puts out 9 shields per turn and is due
for Sistine in 23 turns. Also have salt, iron, horse and 5 luxuries. No hills
for them. Roman capital is in Veii, not Rome - ah, Zulus are kickin' their butt.
It's working on an archer. They're toast.

This is an 11 opponent game, so there are two more. One is I think Germany
to the SE of France (the blue border we couldn't quite reach). The other
is unknown, but seems from the map to be either west of Greece or NE of France.
Going to sail the explorer galley east to Germany then swing up North if there
is an opening.

Wonder situation??
- Unless a darkage miracle occurs, we've got Leo's locked up. We'll beat
nearest opponents by ~8 and ~13 rounds. Unfortunately, the cascade is
going to be brutal. All to SunTzu and Sistine, with BOTH done within
13 after we finish Leo. The placeholder in Hladir will be more like
20 away. The masses with Astronomy (most by then?) will shift to Copernicus,
and if anyone reaches Navigation before then (a fairly good bet), it
will cascade to Magellan, the next one we want. But... Magellan and Coper
are cheaper, and Magellan requires coastal. Seeing how lame the cities
investigated are, and none coastal, I would say Hladir is definitely the
frontrunner for Magellan's voyage! The question is...
Does Trondheim want to go for another wonder right after Leo? It's shield
output is much higher than any seen. It could end up losing all shields
and there may be no good wonder in range, although Copernicus is so-so.
In this game, Smiths would not be bad at all given our large # harbors.
So Econ or Music Theory after Navigation would be needed if Trondheim turns
around after Leo going for another wonder.
- Assuming you also like Magellan, be sure to research Navigation after Astro.
* Summary - I think Trondheim will snag Leo, and Hladir Magellan *
I think the cascade closes shortly after that (with Trondheim losing its
shields) unless we *aggressively* research Economics or Music Theory.
If you don't do the latter, don't start another one after Leo in Trondheim.

- With Astronomy and these half-dozen harbors I've got going, our happiness
problem should disappear soon.

- Settler in Viborg - can go to Far East Island or get a boat to him soon
and he'll be capable of sea travel just as he reaches the sea with
Astronomy (Ocean still not safe 100% til navigation)

- Settler AND Boat ready in Jarlshof. He was planning to hop right next door
to the hill with fish, but... he could hang 7 turns then hit the sea.
Toward? Well those massive gems islands look REAL attractive with sea travel!!

- Remember NOT to broker communications to groups who don't know each other.
Let us gain from being middleman as long as we can. Once others get Astronomy,
shortly after that is the point to sell World Map and Communications to highest
bidders!

It's not ten, but eight turns, but the world is a new world, with new choices
to make. Charis the Red has focused on infrastructure, and told the scouts
already in the water that was it until Astronomy. Apparently that spurred them
on to great deeds!! :hammer:

Good luck, Vikings!
Charis

The Viking World in 830 AD...

Behold the beauty of it... we're the brokers between three groups that know NOTHING about each other. That is, until about 1 turn after Astronomy is learned...

Skip me this round...

What a difference a few turns make! Charis, great job on the wonder calculations. I definitely like the idea of going for Magellan's in Hladir, and then Smith's in Trondheim after Leo. That combination (cheap upgrades and more cash) will allow us to build up forces in the interior, then move them to a good staging area with just a barracks and upgrade en mass, more useful with high corruption. This would be especially great if we can time it with Cavalry. I see no hurry to go to war before then anyway, also by then Magellans will make our invasion fleets faster. So research to Econ would be a priority, if others agree.

BTW, I believe the dark blue is Babylon, they were listed in either the F7 wonders screen or top 5 cities, not sure which.

Well the dark blue in this game... is YOU. The Vikings. (Taken a look at your portrait lately? You ARE the Germans, or rather have replaced them) Babylon would be the indigo nation, though, yes. :p

"We have met the enemy, and it is us. . ."
(I don't remember where that quote is from)

Anyway, that is who I meant, the border SE of the French. I thought it was Babylon, I think they had completed the Pyramids.

Oddly enough, the quote is not from a world leader or statesman, or Star Trek. It seems to be from a 1971 cartoon "Pogo"
http://www.nauticom.net/www/chuckm/whmte.htm

Boy and animal are walking through woods and see it littered with all kinds of junk. Animals says "My feet hurt" and Pogo responds "Yup, we have met the enemy and he is us"

:D

Charis

Got it, should post the results soon.

Originally posted by Sirian
Well the dark blue in this game... is YOU. The Vikings. (Taken a look at your portrait lately? You ARE the Germans, or rather have replaced them) Babylon would be the indigo nation, though, yes. :p

No we are Regular blue, the Babylons are Dark blue

I didn't take notes and am kinda rushed but here are the general notes of what happened.

- Zulu's destroyed the Romans.
- We discovered Astronomy and Navigation, Economics was selected next, but it just started if someone wants to change it.
- England and Greece discovered both Astronomy and navigation before we did so massive world map trades and resource/lux trades ensued around 920 AD.
- Some civ's don't have astronomy or navigation because they are poor (now :D), but a lot of them have the option to build something we offer, keep checking diplomatic screen.
- We are terribly under-trooped. MOST of our cities have WARRIORS defending them, I had 2-3 cities producing pikemen (I pillaged the saltpeter because pikes were faster to build and when we get Leo's they aren't that expensive to upgrade) but the next leader may change this.
- I changed to Republic (finally) because our science rate sucked horribly. With all the trade deals we have going we're doing decently with 10% lux and 90% science and still making a profit.
- I settled the southern island with the saltpeter (now we'll have two sources) and have two other galleys (1 with settler, other with 2 swordsmen) heading south to the island with the gems on them. The galley's should get there in 6-7 turns. Careful of the barbarians that were there originally.

future thoughts:

- Keep building defensive units!!! Since everyone got our world map (maybe a bad idea, who knows) and contact with everyone else the AI's should start to explode in the science department. We don't want to face future attackers with warriors or swordsmen in our cities.

- Skip the extra tech's (except maybe Printing Press and Democracy) and try to get to Nationalism, Steam Power/Industrialization or Medicine/Sanitation ASAP. Democracy will give us extra trade for science and lower corruption a little, Industrialization will give us production boosts (assuming we have coal), and Sanitation will give us more of everything in our cities which always helps.

- There are still two large unexplored areas on the map, including the dark blue border area. The other missing Civ's should be there so try to get there ASAP.

- Economics was chosen to research next because Smiths Trading Co should help cut a lot of our costs. It doesn't have to be completed but IMHO is a good idea.

Good luck! :)

Can you skip me this round? My son has been sick all wekend, I haven't had a chance to get any sleep, let alone try and play.

Sorry to hear that, hope everything's better now, and that you get some sleep.

Jester

I'm going to drop from this game, I just haven't been paying enough attention to it and it will move faster with one less player. Sorry for any inconvienace I may have caused.

Well, I'm glad the forum is finally back up. Jester, do you still have the game? With Thiazi out, I think I am next up. Let me know when it is posted.

Scanning for Life Signs... :scan:

Jester, this is Enterprise, please come in. Any sign of Intelligent Life down there??

Get this game going again!

Syop not playing...

Okay, done, finally!

The whole world has been discovered, I think. We found the Iroquois and the Japanese in the south, and the Russians and Babylonians in the north. The entire world is pretty much at tech parity; we're ahead by an economics. I hope they don't manage to get that before we've gotten an incontestable lead on adam smith's; there's a huge cascade that's been coming down from all the wonders that's conglomerated at J.S. Bach's cathedral. Shakespeare's, Smith's and Newton's are all at risk of being swallowed, depending on how fast this all plays out.

We got Magellan's and Leo's. I upgraded our spears to pikes and our warriors to swords, at fairly minimal cost. For about 500, we could upgrade our pikes to muskets. I leave the decisions to the next ruler.

I ordered lots of universities and cathedrals. I think we have a very real chance at a technology and production lead. That means space racing it out. Does anyone else think this isn't a bad way to go? Regardless, more science never hurt anyone.

Our defenses are, by most people's standards, paper thin. I chronically overestimate the strength of a couple defenders in each city, so I don't mind, but maybe the next ruler would want to change that slightly.

Invading people seems to be a bad idea. Nobody seems to be a huge threat at the moment, and with island based warfare, I'd wager that we could outthink the computer if we ever did go to war with them.

Aside from that, not much. Just moved some ships around. The egyptians beat us to a middle island by about 2 turns, so we've got 2 swords and a settler floating adrift. See if we can do anything with those.

Justus IV was sworn in as Consul with a mandate to modernize the military. After looking at the mighty forces of the Vikings, he was saddened to realize that many of our fine warriors still had nothing but axes to fight our foes with, and even our city garrisions had nothing better than long poles with axes. Justus used the advantages of Leonardo's workshop to quickly replace all such pikes with firearms, although it cost 450 gold. He also decided to replace our aging warriors with new units of musketmen as soon as feasible, and equip the rest with swords, at least. Jester's economic agenda was sound, and Justus continued with most of those, although he knew that the Vikings would need more ships, and invested in finishing harbors at a few of our outpost islands.

While these military reforms were progressing, disturbing news reached him from foreign lands. In 1070, the city of Thebes completed a grand Cathedral, named for someone called "Bach". This news had several implications. First, it meant that soon many other lands, who had been working on such a project, would probably turn their attention to the trading company Mr. Smith was working so hard to establish in Trondheim. Also, it was the last known religious wonder, meaning that we could not peacefully trigger our Golden Age. Knowing that our scientists were already deeply involved in researching Magnetism, which would allow new, faster ships with cannons, time was running out to use our beloved War Galleys to smite our foes and bring about a Golden Age within our nation.

As Justus pondered his options, he knew it was time to teach some of these other arrogant tribes who was the REAL ruler of the seas. But whom would make a good example? The Egyptians had long been a rival for some of the southern islands, but none of their ships were in sight. The Greeks had just sailed a new Sailing Ship (caravel) past two of our damaged Galleys, perhaps we could chase them down, but they had just recently concluded a peace treaty and ROP with Jester, and still had many years of payments due us. ;) Then, seemingly, opportunity knocked. The Iroquois were about to invade Japan, our advisors said they were no longer at peace, so Justus proposed an alliance with Japan, which they gladly accepted. There were two Iroquois galleys near one of our glorius Viking War Galleys, and our brave captain quickly sank the first one! The celebrations began throughout our empire as our people became happier and more productive immediately! (1070 AD).

Justus, although eager, had not prepared for this war as well as he should have, and had only two galleys near the Iroquois lands. He quickly rushed several more south, but it might take a century or more before they arrive. Looking over the Iroquios lands, he decided an all-out invasion was probably beyond our capabilities at this time. However, one city intrigued him. Tyendenaga is on a small island, surrounded by their continent but not attached to it. If taken, it could be defended by naval ships easily. It also is a source of Ivory, one of the two luxuries we do not currently have access to. A galley with a settler and 2 swordsmen is on its way there even now.

HOWEVER, in an ironic twist of fate, hostile galleys appeared off the coast of Jarlshof on our northeast frontier in 1100 AD. But they were not Iroquois! The backward Russians landed and declared war, and their swordsmen quickly overwhelmed our poor, mismatched warriors. (The modernization program had not been completed there yet, since they did not have access to resources). The skirmish against the Iroquois was now a sideshow, as all efforts were directed at destroying the Russian threat. Shipyards by now were retooled to build a new class of sailing ships, Frigates with cannons on board, and larger Galleons to carry our armies. But the first wave of counterattack were the venerable War Galleys, which quickly sank 4 of the enemies galleys. They also landed some veteran Warriors, and a unit of the new musketmen, to besiege Jarlshof. By 1130, a Galleon had been completed in Fox Nest to carry our beloved army, although only two groups of knights had been trained. They formed into the army, boarded the Galleon, and set sail for Jarlshof. Declaring emergency war powers, Justus held onto the reigns of power for a few years past his term limit, to ensure that this army succeeded in recapturing Jarlshof, which they did in 1170. By then, the Russians had also landed on our West island, near Udal, but their spearmen were defeated by our knights, and our new Frigate sank their galley, only to sight another one.

Our next leader, from the house of Charis, will take over at a critical time for our nation. We are halfway through our "Golden Age" of production, and just entered a new "Industrial Era" of technology. Our scientists are currently researching nationalism, but just started that last turn. Smith's Trading company will be completed next turn, probably just in time, since at least 4 other nations are researching it. (The French and Indians switched the turn after Bachs was complete, so they probably have a good amount of shields into it, the Greeks and English just started in the last couple of turns). The Golden age dropped it from 15 turns to 9 when it kicked in. We recently aquired Democracy from the Babylonians, that is a decision for the next government. War weariness has not seemed to effect us yet, but it may be masked by the GA.

The Iroquois will see our envoy this turn, but I also left that for Charis to negotiate a peace, that should reduce the war weariness, but offend the Japanese. If we stay at war, our only real reward would be to take Tyendenaga as an Ivory "colony", and protect it with War Galleys, etc. as long as we build a harbor, maybe coastal fortress? Corruption would of course be brutal, but it is a luxury. The galley is within a couple of turns of arriving, it does have a settler so you could raze the city to avoid the flip.

Speaking of corruption, we probably want to look at when/if we will build our Forbidden Palace. If we decide to invade Russia (possible, but would require more of a buildup than we have now), then we should use it there, get a productive continent up and running. That might be our best bet. Lots of decisions ahead! :confused:

Charis up next, Grey Fox on deck.

P.S. Sorry about going over the turn limit, but I felt responsible for losing Jarlhof and had to retake it before I was done!

The timing on the Golden Age was perfect. I took this turn to rock on infrastucture, amass over 4000 gold, rake in a surplus of 3000 gold per 4 turns, capture an island or two, and establish some new luxury sources... :hammer:
----

1170 AD (0) - "Give me the military update first", barked Charis the Red.
"Sir, we're at war with the Iroquois, but Japan is an ally and they
are prosecuting the war. Our military is bested by NO one! As strong as
most, and stronger than that of Japan, China, India, and Babylon."
Our economy is fair, but could be better. 8 foes in Democracy, 1 in
Republic, 2 in Monarchy." Oh, yes, we're at war with Russia too.
What ships and offensive troops do we have at sea? Er... none sir.
We have 3 frigates, 2 galleons and 12 war galleys, building more frigates.
Fine, ignore the Russians, we have a Golden Age to press. Do patrol
the oceans though. And belay the frigate orders, at twice the cost of
a War Galley an NO upgrade, they're useless spineless ships that lack
character. Let the landlubber nations build frigates! Let them build
the Privateers too, we're PROUD to fly the Viking flag!

Sir, what's our plan. The people feel we have no... er... direction.

The Red called his advisor close. "Lieutenant, take a very close look
at the world map, what do you see?" "Uh, I see a lot of big tough
enemies we would have a very tough time defeating." The Red shook his
head -- the kind of shake that says "You idiot!" "Look again"
Blank stares.

Lt., out of the HUNDRED or more great cities of the world,

ALL BUT ONE DOZEN ARE ON THE COAST.

Sadly, another blank stare. We need not land transports of artillery
and give them time to react. Marines. Marines, my friend. They ignore
city defenses! They ignore city size! They can strike starting from a
range out of sight of the enemy! We even have Magellan and Leo.
Do you realize the importance of this tactical advantage??!

"Sir, what's a marine?"

Bah... think long term lieutenant, think long term! We must bend our will
to this great cause. Forget Hoover, forget tanks, forget theories of
science, forget ancient combat! Railroads, ironclads, factories,
Battleships, Carriers, Destroyers, Infantry. This is our research goal.
Oh, and we can upgrade our galleys to Transports to carry these marines.

One other aspect - with 90% of world cities on the coast, we can break the
back of EVERY nation, one at a time, even if we don't step on their
vile shores. Naval domination, lieutenant. The "all at once" approach was
shot down, but let not this path be struck down by the senate as well!!

Other techs we can take as tribute from our victims.

Hmmm, how many banks do we have, by the way? None, but two on the way??
Work on getting five, would you? Oh, and the three or so places with 20%
corruption and no courthouse, switch them immediately please.

I almost forgot to ask, how are we doing on research? Behind, ahead?
Well, England has Nationlism and...

"Hold it right there! We were planning to research that, costing
exactly twice as much gold? This is the time for friendships, lieutenant.
Buy the "on the way" techs, and save your research dollars for ones you
need to jump ahead on! And buy from the weakest, dont put money in the
coffers of our toughest foes" Ah yes, here's the report, MOST countries
have identical techs, there is great parity except backward Japan.
Tell ya what, turn off science - we'll have cash for Nationalism in 3
instead of 4 turns, and have money leftover to boot. Keep it off to
save up money for Wall Street interest, then buy whatever next tech
the rest of the world gets. Our GA will be one of infrastructure.

Smith's Trading Center comes online! :hammer: What a great boon for a
people such as ourselves, spread out, many harbors, increasing finance
centers, and one day, something called airports :P
We go right into another placeholder, thinking Heroic Epic, Newton, or
quick jump on Wall Street. (Everyone and their brother switches to Newton)

One last item before we start in earnest... I notice the people in
recaptured are starving. Alas the Russian will get the food and we'll
lose on of our own. Go fishing for extra food. An about the Iro's wanting
to end it, we'll keep our pledge to Japan, although in name only. 10 turns.
Recall any ships down there. (After you take Tyendenaga :P )

As the Lieutenant left, Charis the Red muttered, "Darn fine move by
that Justus, kicking off our Golden Age. Da** fine move!!" :hammer:

1180 AD (1) - The Red renders Jarlshof invulnerable (preMarine anyway)
by squatting on all landing squares. We consider sending the Army
to Novgorod, but decide against. Too high a flip chance. With two
extra attack units on hands, it's an option... we'll think it over
while the Army heals. That choice won't go away - maybe we'll let
them build up the city more first.

We get Nationalism from Bablyon for 595 gold and 12 gpt.
Rifle upgrades are a measly 20 gold a pop. Sweet.

1190 AD (2) - The Russians land a warrior and spear next to j.
:eek: Throw in the towel!! surrrender!!! No, not the spear!!!
:rotfl:

The Greeks want and MPP *and* us to pay 39 gpt for it!
:rotfl: What a great round for laughing...

West of Manchester we've landed a musket and sword on 'gem' island.
There are dozens there but the first 8 die without even scratching our
mountain-based musketman.

Oooooh.. Nationlism... the draft... instance defence. Careful Red, careful!
Defenseless Viborg gets the hit for sure, then

Tis the GA, and so thoughts naturally turn to a Forbidden Palace.
Good spots: Rheims in France or Giza in Egypt, RIGHT across the straight from
either other. Expected time: 600 years from now, one leader, and
going for troop-based rather than naval-based domination. Other choices
in our realm: Udal, central to the six cities on our 'big' island.
Forbidden Incense- only 2-3 cities affected. The island between Ravening
Edge and Jarlshof? Could fit seven cities there, would make a huge
revenue center, but almost no production due to few land tiles.
Lindholm?? There's a thought. Would have direct effect on Northern
Egypt, turns Jarlshof area cities into 25% cities instead of desolate.

Charis the Red orders the starting of the Forbidden Palace in Lindholm!

(Next leader can _freely_ veto and make it Heroic Epic instead if that
seems a poor idea. In either case, get some better defenders there)

By some *miracle*, our lowly knight defeats their mighty spear! :hammer:
Also our piddly little ships sink two of their 'naval superiority galleys'

1200 AD (3) - Manchester picks a bad time to expand (for us) taking up
the borders of gem island. We get a free RoP to let us park there :P
Actually, one spot is covered, one not. Aiming to get a settler there
to found it.

We add a worker to the city of Aarhus to complete its bank (the fifth in
line a turn early). Tyendenaga doesn't fall this round since they had a
spare longbow backing up the two spears.

1210 AD (4) - Shaka has Free Artistry (ya, how cultured)
The Greeks and Indians start Shakespeare (must have talked to Shaka).
With culture win off the table, I can do without a +8 happy city for
that shield cost.

Tyendenaga is razed (way to close too capital) and we found one square
further away the Ivory town of Lunde. (A nice Mughalesque maneuver)
The workers we capture allow us to seal off the island :lol:

Jarlsfish is founded on the small island north of Jarlshof.

1220 AD (5) - The Mancester barbs gambit fails. Our musket defends
off *17* barb archers, but the next one scored *two* hits to finish
him. The swordsman then handled 4, became elite, then died. Before this
round 1-2 dozen were killed, and there are still several left on
the island. We'll pick up some more troops and try again - perhaps a
conscript rifle.

Somehow though, the people decide to expand the palace! :hammer:

Japan will give us Mil Tradition for horses. 20 rounds to help them vs
the Iros for permanent knowledge? Deal! Uh, one sec... whoa! He'll throw
in 'Useless' Free Artistry too :P (5 rounds left to the war)

1230 AD (6) - Our people remind us maybe we should build the military
academy... Maybe we should?!?! (Jorvik starts it, but you can switch
off before it's committed!)

1240 AD (7) - Kaupang starts the Heroic Epic, done in 10.
Our wandering privateer finally sees some action, sinking an Egyptian galley.

Fort Pisces is founded west of Jarlshof.

1250 AD (8) - Fifth bank arrives, 'maybe' we should build Wall Street??
It's due next turn! :P (Switch off Newton, don't want that)
Hladir, our next best producer takes over the Military Academy, and
Kaupang takes on the Epic.

1255 AD (9) - Russia and Greece sign an MPP (****crud****)
Just the very turn before we invade Riga. (They chose... wisely?!)

"Our righteous crusade against sniveling Russia has caused the morons
in Greece to declare war on us -- they had a mutual protection pact!"

Umm.... don't I actually have to **attack** Russia to set that off.
Greece *WILL* pay for this (Not sure when, but oh they will)

1260 AD (10) - Well, ok, since it comes "predeclared" I won't hold off
my attack on Riga afterall!

China and Greece have signed a trade embargo against us!!!
Grr... been ignoring diplo too much I see.

We land once more at "Gem Island", this time with rifle, sword and
settler! Fortify on the mountains til the bars impale themselves, then
settle the spot RIGHT on the camp, not in England's borders. That ship
up by North island, at Skara, it was intending to bring down one or two
workers (heading for the town) down to gem island to connect the lux.
(By this I mean "South Gem" island, the one we're about to found)

Enough playing with the Iro - our treaty with Japan is up and we've
gotten their island, so we take peace for their treasury of 3 gold.

Now, about these other clowns... England is top dog, and right next
to Greece, and has Man-o-Wars. I can pull them in for furs and 500ish gold.
That will lock us in to about 20 more years of war though, and we ARE
starting to see weariness. For the human however, I'm pretty sure an MPP
with England would ONLY fire when we're attacked directly by Greece/Russia.

The Zulus would take an ally vs Greece for just Furs and 250 gold.
*THAT* would sure keep them occupied :lol:

If Russia is offered peace, they'll take it but can only give 11 gold

I'll leave this call to our next leader, since it will shape our next 20 yrs.

At the end, the treasury sits at *4411* with a surplus of *753* gpt (!!)
(OMG Charis has gone of the very deep end of fiscal responsibility!!)

Tips to next leader...
- On small islands which have units outside the city, keep them outside,
as this prevents invasion.
- If you *press* the war with Russia, take their islands, Riga and Novgorod.
- As soon as we landed next to Riga, they draft a rifle - so much for a
mere spear defender. They will no doubt draft one per turn for next four
turns. We have one vet rifle on the way, but that's it. You might pull
the army out, OR get another knight to fill it up. It *WON'T LAST* vs
four rounds of drafted rifles, even conscripts. Don't waste them! :P
(Note they would never see it coming and could not draft vs Marines :P )
- Nothing raises war weariness quite like bombardment, and our ship volleys
are *so* weak they're just not worth it vs cities or foot units.
- You might punish Greece by taking their ill-defended island off France,
with Hieraconopolis. Marathon is their other puny island.
- I did make about 3 cav in case things got rought, but they're scattered.
- Lunde near Salamanca, has ivory and is unconnected. You could rush a
harbor *next* turn (not this one) for only 250ish gold.
- Sadly, our GA should end *THIS* turn 8-\

* Decide if you want to let the FP complete at Lindholm. If not it can switch
to Heroic Epic. When it's done with either, draft a rilfe.
* Top 5 score civs are: England, us, Russia, Zulu, Greece. Keep this in mind
carefully as you choose your next plans/ally!

Good luck, (Grey Fox, then Ozy?)
Charis

If we want a tech lead, shouldn't we go for the Theory of evolution and get to COMBUSTION with that?

Ah, for the record, if it's not switched or built before I get my turn I plan to STOP production of the FP in Lindholm. Why waste a FP when we could use it so much better in other areas?

I'd prefer to use the FP in one of the other area's mentioned like between Egypt and France in Russia or even on the main island down below with the Greeks and Zulu's. The logistics of taking the largest land mass would might be a tad much however since it's so far away, but if nothing else we could always take over Egypt/France one half at a time and make life easier (it's closer) and still build the FP there in one of the cities close to the middle of the area for a more consolidated empire.

We have awhile until sanitation so we could easily draft from our main cities to get the defensive units and our top producers (if in WLTKD) make Cav's relatively quick.

What say we make a modernish army and then go pillage and invade like true Vikings would?? :)

I planned to stop it... sure a F.P. is always great to get as early as possible... but not through wasting it.

If Lindholm has a lot of water around it... it's wasting it.

And the MARINE idea sounds great.


Anyway... You could skip me from this game as I'm hooked up in many new SG's.

I'll be watching though, and I hope that Marine Idea will succeed.

(BTW, how do you know Marines won't suffer from Walls? It doesn't say so in the Civilopedia)

That good a turn and the comments are on the "I started this here but feel free to switch it" line?! :rolleyes: hehe

On ToE, what I meant was unlike past umpteen games, don't beeline ToE for Atomic and Electronics then Hoover, because what we really want are all in the other line. ToE for other techs would work well... sorta...

I don't really want a tech lead, at least not yet. The treasury is HUGE because I've been settling for tech parity and saving 50% on techs. This you do until you reach a tech where the timing or the tech gives you an advantage during which you plan to strike. For that kind of tech you research it yourself. I think we're a while into 'one beaker' Steam Power. After that if we want to research Industrialization on our own, or Electricity for ToE, that would work. Those both give immediate advantages. Otherwise, no need to do our own research and 'get a tech lead' until (if) we go for Amphib warfare. We want a production and infrastructure lead, to translate to a NAVAL lead when we get the tech. The money saved from staying at parity can rush build a lot, and can get us that naval advantage. Being 5 turns early to combustion does nothing for us.

If we do go ToE... what Techs? Here are the costs for some:
100: (Medicine,Sci Method), Corporation
120: (Steam Power,Electricity,Nationalism) Industry, Amphib War
140: Steel, Replaceable Parts, Mass Production
160: Refining, Combustion
180: Electronics
200: Atomic Theory

With this size map (tech rate 180), 12 players, at (for example) 8th civ price (there are about 8 'contenders' for tech parity in this game), the price for these (100..200) are (tech rate * tech cost * discount[5/12] * 2-if-you-research-it):
1500,1800,2100,2400,2700,3000 gold to research 8th
750, 900,1050,1200,1350,1500 gold to buy, but...:
3600, 4320, 5040, 5760, 6480, 7200 to research *first*
(if 7 other civs buy it at max price, and all at peace with you, can recoup up to 2800...5600)

You can see here why the "ToE-Hoover" combo is so powerful, you snag two VERY expensive techs that way.

Anyway, going ToE, Refining and Combustion would be our ideal choices. If the AI goes straight for Electricity and SciMethod, then Industrialization and Atomic Theory would work (the latter cuz it costs double Corporation, and the money savings would let us research Corporation quickly)

If the AI goes for the 'Oil' techs and ignores SciMethod, so do we. We can prebuild or outbuild the ToE and getting the tech quick isn't stricly required.

--- What about the FP?

It would be a solid and appropriate choice to target the elimination of either France OR Egypt to grab Rheims in France or Giza in Egypt as our FP site. Once the FP is built and we have strong cities on that island, we conquer the other one next.
There are issues with this: we're already at war with Greece and Russia, and China and Iros don't like us. Adding two more to the list when we have no military advantage is dicey. One other issue: you almost REQUIRE a great leader to rush the FP at one of these sites. We *could* take on either country, probably weaker France, with cavalry. Actually, if one lacks saltpeter, go for them. There are nine cities to conquer on either island. Geographically Egypt is a better land mass, but France can be chopped in two, making it a partial conquest by taking Tours and cities North.

War weariness. We've had this masked by the GA, but with that ending and ANOTHER country entering the war, it's going to get oppressive. Someone spoke of democracy... forget it unless we make peace now and stay at peace until Amphib Warfare. We might see a fallback into Monarchy before long, and if so we'll no doubt stay there the rest of the game. (And hope to drag the others into Communism)

Three basic paths in front of us:
- "Bring it" to Russia, crank mil troops like mad and cripple them. Subchoices there: main island, north island, meaty south island. Being split up like that, if WE concentrate, they won't have a chance. Engage an ally vs Greece, probably England (or Zulu good too) Hold off on FP (but a GL could rush it in Moscow)
- "Make peace", amass a huge naval fleet, build up cash, staying at parity, then research Amphib, crank 40 marines in 10 transport, and literally storm the world, seeing each civ lose EVERY coastal city they have in ONE turn. Crush consolidate, load the boats for the next civ, and meanwhile go gung ho on flight.
Note this peace is quite temporary. The added production of a FP many many moons from now will make no difference, and this is the scenario I envisioned for Lindholm. We blow our entire treasury, thousands of cash, rushbuilding those marines. The ten xports are upgraded war galleys.
- "Slap Russia" razing a north island or both, then demand peace. Build up and use cav for this. Demand peace and get something out of it. Then load up these cav, along with, oh, at least 12-18 more, and crash land them at Tours and Rheims, or Giza and Thebes. Annihilate one of those nations. Build/rush the FP.

These are all very Viking, very military, even the one with another 1/2 era full of peace. The middle choice is not incompatible with the other two, but would have a huge impact on if it worked or not. Money and production on cavs and rifles is not money on ships and (later) marines.

Either way, this should play out fun :hammer:
Charis

My vote would be the assault on Russia initially, then move into the Marine strategy as the time arrives. There are several reasons, but I think we have enough enemies without declaring war on Egypt or France, and we need a continent to make the FP really worthwile. Taking at least a good chunk of Russia with Cav would give us several productive cities, and a good shot at a GL, especially if we finish Heroic Epic first. We need to move quick, though, maybe even start with knights, we dont want to fight their Cossacks, and take a chance on triggering their GA against us! How close behind us are they in tech? If we have enough breathing space, I say go for it, at least one island, then with FP we should be able to build up culture enough to stop any flips.

Once they are taken care of, we will have an additional 5-6 productive cities to crank out Marines for Phase II! :soldier:
I do like the thought of Viking ships appearing out of nowhere to raid and pillage our enemy's coasts! Even if we Raze the cities and leave!!!!

Meanwhile, I would rather try to buy our way out of the war with Greece, then take on an ally and lock us into war for 20 turns. This might allow us to stay in Republic for a while. Since Russia declared war on us, will war weariness stay milder if we make peace with everyone else? I'm a little confused on how war weariness takes effect with multiple opponents.

Charis: Glad you made it to Tynedaga, I was wondering whether that was such a good idea, or if I was just running too low on sleep at the time! Another luxury is always worth it! :)

I don't think I'm out of this game yet though... I just want you all to skip me this round.

Anyway.. Vikings have never been that keen on Taking land Far away from their Capital. Sure they were half-way around the World, even discovered North America first of all civilizations in the World. But they were too Home sick to Keep all their Colonies...

BTW, I'm trying the Marine Tactic in this GOTM, too keep the others from winning the game (and about 95% of all cities are harbor cities...)

Grey Fox brings up an interesting point, that could still tie in with our debate. The Vikings did not settle most of the lands they invaded, with one exception: RUSSIA! The Rus were a Viking people who sailed down the Volga river to take over the principalities that had been there, if I remember my Russian history classes correctly. We could occupy Russia, use it as an industrial base, then raid and pillage the other nations coastlines while we continue to build, or go for a space victory. Corruption would be high for landing on all those seperate islands/continents, but we could just raze all those cities, and set those nations back centuries in development!!! :viking:

I did start my turn (since Grey Fox stepped out of the rotation this round) last night on this game and discovered a few things.

1) We have coal near Virborg, also Iron in that area so we can build the Iron Works! :)

2) Steam Power, Medicine and Communism are CHEAP when you buy them last (<300 & WM for Steam, same for Communism and 180 gold flat for Medicine).

3) Knights, even in an army are no match for riflemen. :( The knights didn't die but I had to pull them back out of the northern Russian city when Cathy started drafting riflemen to defend.

I will hopefully get to finish my turns tonight and should post tommorrow.

Ah, regarding our standing with the other leaders at this time... Well all of them, except those at war with us, are now POLITE with us thanks to establishing embassies and ROP's. Any particular reason why we didn't do that earlier in the game? Not trying to blame anyone just curious why we let our relations go down the dumper when we might have avoided some of the bad feelings from all the other Civ's.

Invading Russia would be a good solution (especially since Cathy seems to invade for no ggod reason) except for a few issues I don't particularly like.

1) Russia is at the top of the map and we'd have to sail MUCH further to try to do any sort of offensive operations in the future. IMHO, I'd think a more centralized location would be better. This is why I was/am so in favor of wiping Egypt or maybe France.

2) Russia seems to be mostly tundra under all the forests while France has less and Egypt is the next best thing to the bountiful southern continent. From a purely production standpoint we'd do MUCH better to take over an area where rails actually HELP production, be it food or shield.

Personally I'd have no problem with attacking Russia but I have this uneasy feeling that if Greece takes over the Southern continent we might have a run for our money. then again sicne the AI can't manage as well as we can then it'll still be close, but I'd just as soon get a land where we have hills, grassland and plains to mine/irrigate than all this tundra and water.

Just my $.02.

-Ozy

PS The large southern continent has FOUR sources of coal as well. If that area wasn't 7-8 turns away by ship I'd say we ammass a huge invasion fleet and go for it down there, but that might be a better idea to try once we get to flight so we can airlift units without having to wait on transports after the initial invasion.

Pre-Spender? What's that? Well, it's when you inherit a lot of money and spend large chunks of it getting ready to do something. In this case the cause is war.:viking:

As mentioned previously we now have Steam Power, Communism and Medicine and have workers trying to rail all the areas that actually benefit from the rail. I didn't start the military rail network because frankly, with all the islands we own, a rail network isn't as high a priority IMHO.

On the trade front we now have ROP or other binding agreements with everyone except Greece (who we're still at war with) and France (poor Joanie, she has NO saltpeter still). Why France you ask? Well because she HAS no Saltpeter and because, well, about three turns into my turn she signed a MPP with Greece. Since Greece had declared on us with little to no provocation I decided that if she laid down with a dog we'd help her get some fleas! :) (If you don't understand that saying let me know.)

Our army isn't bad now, except for being somewhat scattered a little (although I tried to consolidate as much as I could), but we SERIOUSLY need some sort of artillery boost before invading. Cav's do great vs. riflemen in the open usually but when you stick that same rifleman in a size 12 city you run the risk of losing units needlessly.

My suggestion to the next leader would be to try to build a few more galleys (since they upgrade to transports) and at least a dozen more Arty to go along with our mobile forces.

Almost every city we have is working on Police Stations to i) reduce corruption as much as possible and ii) to reduce war weariness when we start the next phase of our plan.

Our current war weariness? Zero since I made peace with Russia early on in my turn and the war with Greece has been in name only (well name only until I signed an alliance with England and the Zulu's against Greece early on) so we should be in good shape to take on another foe shortly.

Our army and fleet is either gathered to the SE of our main island (the one with Trondhiem) or around the area having just picked up the last of the troops or troops walking over there after being shuttled to the island.

22 Cav, roughly 5-7 riflemen, thesame number of swordsmen and our lone 2 cannon are in that area. I also added a settler to the mix so we could raze Reims (the French city sticking out the furthest into the channel between France and Egypt) and two explorers to help pillage with. There are also some workers in that stack, but not really included, they just so happened to be in the area building rail at the end of my turn, take them or not (I'd suggest not) up to the next player.

Have fun, we're back to roughly 1k gold in the bank and still making over +500 a turn with a lone scientist working on our next discovery. Don't forget the southern colonies, they need better defensive troops and workers (maybe captured ones from France?) to found colonies. Oh, I was able to found a city next to the gems in the jungle/mountians but the English city nearby is still showing a strong culture radius, if we get extra funds we'd probably want to rush more culture building down there, might even get the English city to flip! :)

Good luck!

I got worried when I saw the 'spender' thing, but if the money is used to get us closer to the FP, super :P

I didn't like Russia as the next target simply because it did NOT move us any closer to an FP. If France has no saltpeter and no money, and if they chose to bed the Greeks, her doom is indeed now our target! :hammer:

When we invade her, do it quick and hard. There's a chance she could buy saltpeter if we're too slow. Does she even have nationalism? Will we see the draft? If she does, the BIG reason for artillery will be to get size 12 down below size 7 to cut the draft. Each size decrease above 7 is equal to killing one rifle with one shot, when the AI is in draft mode! Conversely, each extra turn you take requires killing one more rifle.

England *and* Zulus? That'll teach him, hehe.

Shadowlord, you're up, good luck! (Jester on deck)
Charis

AFIK Joanie does have Nationalism, pretty much everyone does (I learned that when Cathy started drafting riflemen to defend against the knight army we had outside her city).

I forgot to mention that France only has one source of Iron and horses. The Iron is on a mountian near her northern-most mainland city and would be an ideal spot to unload 1/2 our invasion force onto to attack the city (it's adjacent) while the other 1/2 the invasion force would land outside Tours (or is it Reims(sp?)?) on one of the hills there to attack while sending one of the explorers out to pillage the horses on the other hill the next turn.

With both of these cut she'd be forced to import everything or else use only riflemen/archers to attack and defend with.

Since everyone has Nationalism that's why I mentioned building artillery to go along. Essentially if we did land a two prong attack as mentioned we'd almost cut France in half which would make it MUCH easier to conquer. This is especially true if we attacked the city near the horses, it's sort of the link between the two halves of Joanie's country.

Sorry about spending so much but I wanted to get the Cav's out of the way because they cost more to build, more in shields or to rush, and you gave me such a nice lump of money! :D Trondheim can build a Cav in 4 turns cold so should be able to crank cannons one every other turn I believe. Once the Iron Works and factories come into play we'll be able to do even better. Now would definitely be the time to attack because once the other groups get factories we'll have a much tougher time having to ferry all our troops over, at least until airports come into play.

I love the Marine idea, but we can almost do that now. Get 4-6 cannon, 4-6 Cav and a defender or two next to Joanies major cities (roughly 4 cities could be taken with the Cav we have on hand, if not more) and we could easily cripple her in the first round or two after we land. All we need are the cannon and maybe a few transports. We have 2 galleons and I believe 10-11 galley's waiting to load, but will probably need more depending on how many cannon are built (if any).

Should be fun. I know I had fun building up the force, just waiting now to see how well it goes from here. :)

will see what I can do ;)

Well, it's been three days or so. I know the forum was down since last night but just curious if the turns have been played or not.

Whats going on shdwlord? :)

Sorry for the delay. I tried to post yesterday afternoon, but the forum was down.

Inherited: Looks like we are about to do something I don't know if I have ever done in any of my games, turn on the french when there are other targets available.

1) 1315 After watching some ships moving somewhere, troops loaded on available ships and set sail towards france.
The French complete Newtons in Rheims. Greeks start shakespeare's. Babylonians start shakespeare's. Indians start shakespeare's.

2) 1320 ROP with france cancelled. I have heard that moving troops into someone's territory then cancelling it gives you black marks diplomatic wise with everyone, I am not sure if it is true, but broke the ROP just in case.
Russia offers an MPP which I turn down because of their wars. Egyptians start shakespeare's. Babylonians complete shakespeare's in Babylon.

3) 1325 Troops unloaded outside Marseilles.
France demands that we move our troops or declare war that turn, since I didn't want our troops moving to who knows where, I declare war.

4) 1330 Marseilles captured. Orleans captured at the cost of 2 cavalry. Sanitation bought from China for world map + 90 gold. No one can even afford 1 gpt for our new furs.
Japanese ironclad sinks an iroquois frigate north of Lunde. 2 cavalry lost to French swordsmen. France and England sign a peace treaty. England cancels our RoP.

5) 1335 French pikemen and spearmen approaching Orleans eliminated. Cavalry moves outside Paris.
Our troops are forced to leave English territory? I didn't know that we had any there. Ahh, a frigate was fortified near manchester.

6) 1340 Harbor rushed in Larne. Temple rushed in Orleans. 1 French conscript rifleman holds off 4 of our cavalry in Paris.

7) 1345 5 French riflemen and a cavalry defeated as Paris is captured.
England and Greece have signed a peace treaty. England asks us to ally with them against the russians, I decline for now. Egyptians begin Universal Sufferage. Indians begin Universal Sufferage. Zulus begin Universal Sufferage. England must have just gotten Industrialization, they didn't have it on my turn.

8) 1350 Lyons barely holds, only defender is now a spearman.

Japan, Babylon, India and the Iroquois do not have Industrialization yet, not sure about france and greece as we are still at war with them. I will leave it up to the next leader to decide if we should buy it now (asking price is 1000+ or 500+ and salt peter or horses and salt peter to England) or wait to see if we can get it cheaper if one or more of the other civs acquire it. I usually go for a tech lead, not parity, so I am not sure which would be the better strategy. I moved our scientist to the french continent since those cities were being starved anyway, figured might as well make some scientists over there and put our people back to work.

Rheims or Orleans looks like the best place for the FP to me, as it will affect the egytian continent too if/when we take it over. If it hadn't been for a few super defenders of Joanie's, they would both be ours now instead of just Orleans.

Originally posted by shdwlord
Rheims or Orleans looks like the best place for the FP to me, as it will affect the egytian continent too if/when we take it over. If it hadn't been for a few super defenders of Joanie's, they would both be ours now instead of just Orleans.

Heh, two things...

1) The settler was included in the stack so we could raze Rheims and rebuild with OUR city there, but since they had just built Newtons there I guess we can keep it now.

2) Did you bring any more cannons than the 2-3 that we had when I handed off? If not, then that's why the "super defenders" caused you any problem at all and is why I mentioned that the next leader would need to build some before attacking. If you did build cannons then ignore what I just said. :)

Cavalry can beat even infantry but usually only if the city is below size 12 and the infantry only has ONE HP left after being bombarded by artillery/cannons.

Sounds like a good job so far however. :):goodjob:

Looks like Jester is up next.

After looking at the map, it looks like we inherited massive unhappiness from Joan's mismanagement, coupled with the war weariness, and the fact that we are still invading their motherland, and those cities are starving themselves. Orleans in particular has lots of improvements, worth keeping, but it will take some massive infusion of happiness to get things right. Need to rush marketplace, maybe even cathedral to get it under control. Also, if we bring Viking workers and add them to a city, they start out content, right? I mean, depending on size, etc, they do not inherit the unhappiness already present in the city?
The first city (Marsailles?) is down to a population of 2, but if we moved a couple of workers in so half the population was Viking, that should bring some stability, and also reduce the risk of culture flipping. Of course, the best solution is to annilhate the French, and then there would be no more whining about "our mother country"!!! :D

We have plenty of cash to rush some key improvements. Also, remember we NEED a Great Leader for the FP project, whoever is next make sure to maximize the use of our elite cav, focus the elites on picking off the wounded riflemen for easy kills after cannons and veterans weaken them.

> if we bring Viking workers and add them to a city, they start out
> content, right? I mean, depending on size, etc, they do not
> inherit the unhappiness already present in the city?

Actually they do :( They don't resist, but unhappiness due to whipping, drafting, previous mismanagement **is** kept, as it's associated with the city, not the workers in it (booooooo)

Not only that, adding Vikings won't, afaik, add 'stability'. The flipping pressure depends on how many foreign nationals are in there, NOT the percent foreign nationals, nor how many of our natives are there. Starve them down I'm afraid. 8-\

We need to end the war, and once France is gone there is no chance to flip. By end the war I mean wipe out France, not make some wimpy peace! :hammer: If war weariness gets bad, go to Monarchy. We have a TON of war ahead of us, by any reckoning.

> Of course, the best solution is to annilhate the French, and
> then there would be no more whining about "our mother
> country"!!!
There ya go... better said than I did.

> Also, remember we NEED a Great Leader for the FP project,
> whoever is next make sure to maximize the use of our elite cav,
> focus the elites on picking off the wounded riflemen for easy
> kills after cannons and veterans weaken them.

Excellent points.

Charis

Quick Note about the game mechanics: the AI's are apparently not subject to negative happiness, or perhaps not even subject at all to the penalties of military unhappiness. How else to explain a small coastal town that has managed to accumulate about 15 drafting penalties and about 30 whipping penalties? Not even 8 lux and marketplace can counter that. I am attaching a screenshot from my Deity solo game below, showing one citizen protesting aggression vs mother country... at TWO PERCENT of the total unhappiness, meaning 40 to 60 instances of other unhappiness penalties. It's insane.

The game in the current patch is simply BROKEN in regard to capturing AI cities post-industrial. Any such city will come with heavy penalties, and the further into the game, the more such penalties accumulate. You pretty much have to figure that any city you capture will be worthless for population or production, and good only for territorial control, any resources in range, and any great wonders it has.

Therefore... if you guys are SERIOUSLY intending to make AI lands your second core, you'd better start razing and bring in your own settlers. Otherwise you'll have an FP sitting there with a bunch of permanent size 1 Whipped-to-Death cities of no use to you.

One thing you can do to redeem is "settle around" any useless AI cities. You can't disband them. Just leave them there and settle a new city on top of them, as close as possible and leave the whipped/useless city with just a couple tiles, or none at all. Give them to the new cities.

Another solution is to give away the corrupt cities to an enemy, then attack and raze them all next time you go to war, and then replace with your own settlers. Your second chance to raze, so to speak.

I hope they address this problem in the next patch, as its currently the MOST absurd aspect of the game, yes even counting the ridiculous half-price-in-coin-vs-beakers for tech, and the overbearing tech devaluation routines, with Deity games hitting industrial age in BC times. Even that is less distorted than the insane accumulation of draft-whip penalties in AI cities (which they seem not even to be bothered with! How logical that they whip their people to death and it's all good, but as soon as you step in and take over, the citizens all of a sudden "discover" they are unhappy about what the LAST regime in control of them was doing to them! Ridiculous).


- Sirian

If you disband a City, the closest city you control Inherit the Unhappiness from that city. Or so I have heard anyway.

Raze the cities you know they have Whipped and Drafted in like hell. Bring Settlers with you and build some cities, then build or/and buy settlers in those cities.

This is just too many games at once for me. I've got too much junk to do for school these next couple days before I get a _slight_ easing up, then exams...

I hate to pass this game up again (It's finally got some real character!), but there's realistically no way I can play this sucker anytime before sunday.

So I'll pass.

Jester

I will hopefully be able to play yet tonight, looks like a tricky situation. I have wondered in the past about the AI's ability to keep their cities from burning down around them, every one I take over has so much unhappiness, even after the war is over, that they usually starve themselves down for a while.


Jester: I remember those days, it always seemed that exams hit when I had everything else going on at once.

I said I skipped this game before and then I regret it. But I have to skip this game, I have no time... so drop me...

Justus V was elected during a time of great turmoil for the Viking Republic. The righteous war with the French had begun to drag out, and the ungrateful citizens of our liberated cities continued to blame US for their problems. Even our own citizens were getting agitated. Justus knew he must act fast. As he reviewed the situation, he noticed that although the Viking treasury was full, very little was being spent on luxuries for the people. Also, our people clamored for luxury items like spice, and dyes, which we did not posess. By negotiating with Cleopatra, he was able to secure a supply of spices for 500 gold and 10/turn, and our ally Shaka was willing to sell us some dye, for 200 gold plus 10/turn. This improved the mood of many citizens, although some towns did not seem be able to get access to all these goods. Justus then decreed that all Cities "should build a market where the peasants can barter for needed goods!" (Civ2 Flashback) ;)
He actually paid to rush these in a couple of cities. He also announced a special "War Tax Rebate", turning 30% of our income to our citizens. These measures were cause for much celebration throughout the Republic, with most cities erupting into spontaneous celebrations. Even the recently liberated french cities of Orleans and Marsailles began to reemploy a small fraction of their population when the marketplaces were complete. (Net increase of 11 happiness - +2 Lux and 9 bonus).

While negotiating these trade deals, Justus also saw England beginning an Industrial revolution. After sweet-talking Elizabeth, promising her horses and 400 gold, and 10/turn, she agreed to teach us her methods. This allowed our cities to begin to build factories, which would greatly increase our productivity. Justus was so intrigued by this new concept that he purchased two new factories immediately, one for the Capital, of course, and for Kaupang. This would enable them to contribute more arms to the war effort.

Finally, Justus wanted to follow the sage advice of Grey Fox and others, and rush more cannons to the front lines. This would be a slow process, however, and even slower once they arrived. He therefore decided to build three great "floating cannons", short boxy ships with no resemblance to our great War Galleys, but which could move faster and bombard the french cities into submission. He also ordered a couple groups of Settlers outfitted to travel to France ASAP. All of this cost the Vikings dearly, spending over 3000 Gold in the first year of his reign. But desparate times call for desparate measures, and this was WAR!

1355-1360 saw a series of battles over Lyons, where a Rifleman, Pikeman, and Spearman held off the might of the Viking Army. Then a French cavalry unit sortied out to kill a wounded cavalry regiment that had dropped back to recover. A cavalry unit was added to our Army to reinforce the knights, and Lyons eventually fell. For their obstinance, Justus decreed that the city would be burnt to the ground, to teach those ungrateful French a lesson. We also saw several French galleys moving about, and when we sent a Frigate to destroy them, it was sunk by the evil French!:mad:

In 1365 our trusty ally, Shaka Khan of the Zulus, wimped out and made peace with the French. Oh well, Trust No One. Back home, Hladir completes the Viking Military Academy, but they start to build a Hospital before beginning to train a new Army. Trondheim also has started a hospital.

A new group of our settlers arrived in 1370 to build a new city on the ruins of Lyons, and named it Lion's Den. A detachment of cavalry that had been sent south to block French reinforcements saw that the city of Tours was defended by Pikemen. They rushed the city and captured it, dividing the French continent! The city was a very strategic location, so Justus decided to take it intact, and actually had most of its buildings still standing (Barracks, granary, Market, Courthouse, Aquaduct, Harbor). Our main forces move in to begin the sieges of Chartres and Rheims, our primary objective. The french send two untrained, conscript riflemen out of their cities to attack our Swordsmen, and the french are struck down. :ninja:

1375 sees our bombardment strategy begin to pay off. At Rheims, the ironclads kill off citizens until the population drops below 6, then they destroy the barracks, and the city walls come tumbling down! Even one of our glorious War Galleys gets in the action, wounding a pikeman. However, the french hold off a desparate assault. In the city of Viborg, the new Iron Works is completed, and production goes up to 50/turn. They immediately begin a factory, which Justus pays for next year. They then begin to pour their efforts into a new concept, Universal Suffrage, which theorizes that allowing the Viking women to vote will somehow make the war more popular?!?!? Anyway, it should be done in 90 years (18 turns). Many other nations have begun to develop a similar concept, but none have the great capacity of Viborg and the Iron Works behind them!

1380 - Egypt is getting touchy, they object to two of the ironclads having drifted into their waters, and order them out of their territory or they will declare war. They are adjusted back on course, and the incident settles. Meanwhile, a half-dozen nations inform me that our right-of-passage agreements are expiring, and most will not renew it for less than 300 gold, which Justus refuses to pay.

1385 is a dark year. Disaster strikes across the war front. First, the evil people of Tours reject our liberators, rejoining France, and kidnapping a regiment of riflemen and a cavalry unit that was recovering from their wounds. From Chartres and Rheims, Longbowmen somehow sneak out and kill off our riflemen, capturing two cannons outside each city! Meanwhile, a galley lands a spearman and warriors outside of Lion's Den. Justus tells the people this must be their last desparate gasp, victory is within sight! Meanwhile, money is poured into the former french cities to train new regiments of riflemen and cannons to replace our losses, while swordsmen finish off the bowmen.

1390 - The cavalry arrives! Two galleons from the home islands reach the coast of France, with three regiments of cavalry, some riflemen and cannons. These forces quickly finish off the French counterattack. The constant bombardment of the ironclads reduces Rheims to a population of one, and after losing 4! cavalry units and two swordsmen, the last pikeman dies. The remnants of the city are preserved, primarily because of Newton's University. The Aqueduct survives as well. Some of the victorious troops move south to retake Tours once and for all, with their ironclads for support.

1395 - The defenders of Chartres make a fatal error. Two riflemen and a Longbowman had attacked out to destroy our swordsmen. Although they held off our counterattack last turn, they remained outside the city again this turn. Sensing their vulnerability, Justus ordered an all-out assault, led by our Army. A War Galley joined a Frigate in an opening bombardment. After the lead Cav regiment was defeated, the knights struggled against an entrenched rifleman, and were almost annihilated, finally killing him with one hit point left. They were sent back to Paris to recover. Meanwhile, all remaining forces were thrown at Charters, including a swordsman and a rifleman that had been guarding the cannons, and the gamble pays off. Chartres falls, and is quickly burnt to the ground. A settler waiting offshore prepares to land and rebuild the city, but Justus holds off, deciding that it is too close to Paris, and that the settler would be more valuable if needed to build a city at the current site of Tours. He orders another settler sent just in case, but the settler stays on the galleon.

1400 - Justus knows his term is coming to an end, but he wants to exact his revenge on Tours for their treachery. Leading off with his floating cannons, he then charges south with as much cavalry as he can find to rush Tours. The single rifleman is overwhelmed, and quickly defeated. Justus oversees the destruction of the city, vowing that he will not repeat the mistake of trusting the fickle French. The settler is landed, but the glory of founding the new city will pass on to the next ruler, as Justus must step down.

Looking over the republic, Justus was satisfied. Although the battles were bloody and took far longer than he had thought, northern france was now securly in Viking hands. The treasury had been rebuilt to about half of what it was, but the people were happy. Many still grumbled about the war, however, and if the money were taken away, the celebrations would cease. This could also lead to riots in some of the newer cities, as well as more corruption. Fresh troops, including cavalry and cannons, were loaded on ships and parked offshore of Avignon, our next likely target, while our Viking explorers have been travelling throughout southern France disrupting the road network and breaking their irrigation dikes.

One major regret is that no Great Leader has emerged from all this combat, one who could inspire the people of Rheims (or Paris, or Tours, etc) to build a second Palace to rule these new provinces. The corruption in France is so rampant, most cities will not build anything without paying cash. Many improvements have already been purchased in Orleans and Paris, but the new Forbidden Palace would allow these cities to become productive contributors to our republic.

A final note: without putting money into research this past century, we are well behind most other advanced nations. There are three new technologies that the Zulus, Egyptians or English would be willing to teach us, for a cost, of course: Electricity (roughly 1000g, or 700 and Ivory to the Zulus), Espionage (300 g), and a new business concept called the Corporation, (900 g). They have stayed pretty even in tech with each other, Electricity has been available for 3-4 turns at least, but it wasn't an urgent need, and I hoped the cost would come down. Still cheaper than researching it ourselves, at this point, but to get all three would empty the treasury. This decision I leave for my successor. It would become urgent if we decide we must have Theory of Evolution, especially if someone beats us to Universal Suffrage and we don't want to waste all those shields. It might be useful to get Electricity, at least, so that path is open to us.

I will also post a screenshot of the French Theater of War.

FORMER French cities to the north, soon-to-be Former French cities to the south. Notice Egypt's culture boundaries have expanded due to the vacuum of the French demise, leaving only a narrow channel for ships to get by, and they need to actually sail through Rheims, at least until it starts pushing out its own borders again. Rheims is still probably the best spot for the FP if we get a leader, otherwise Orleans could probably be made to build it, but slowly (I think it is producing 3 shields after corruption, so 66 turns to complete the FP there.)

Also, depending on how much longer the war continues, we may want to consider either a temporary truce to let war weariness subside, or switching to Communism. Right now I think we are OK, 30% luxuries to counteract WW still puts us ahead, I think, and if we do complete Univ. Suffrage, it will be a big help. Police stations might be another option to consider. Many cities were building Police stations when I took over, but I switched the larger ones to factorys/hospitals first. Of course, the best option, as I said earlier, is to finish the French off quickly! :D
At least finish off this main island, I'm not sure how much influence the smaller island cities would have if we made a truce with them.

Note that the Ironclads are on the west side of the island, I was going to sail them around to reach the other french cities, but since the settler was landed at the bottleneck (where Tours was), they can sail through the city when it is built. There is another settler in a galleon with a couple of cavalry north of Lindholm (not in the picture).

Well done! :hammer:

Almost choked on reading of the flip of Tours, and wondered what massive losses of units there we lost. When you said what was lost it was clear why it flipped :P

It was a gamble, which if it worked (bigger garrison, destroy their capital and push it further away) would have been nice, a city with a lot of improvements there. With 1 shield, it will take quite a while to build those same items now.

Still plenty of action against the French. Focus on elites, getting them, and having them cherry pick the weak units. We really would love a GL for the FP. So much so, I fear for Egypt's safety if we wipe the French out and don't get a leader.

Corporation already??? Blasted mega-fast tech progression. We, a viking nation, get out our very first frigate, and we're on the verge of seeing the technology for destroyers become available? ToE and Hoover might be started before we even have 4 factories in our nation?

:goodjob:
Charis

Good job on the fighting...

Hrm, tours took that long to finally take? I guess my idea of landing a two prong attack wasn't so hot after all.. :eek:

Charis you're up next (in case your post wasn't some sort of vague "got it"). I'd say to take all of the French out except for maybe Amiens, and then use the extra wine and incense to trade to everyone else.

When southern france falls we will have our own dyes, so shouldn't need to import them from Shaka.

Cleo should next, even if we do get a GL to finish off the FP in Rheims, since she has the spices we need and her lands will be highly productive with a FP in former France. Also, we may need to fight her just to get a leader.. :(

EDIT: I'll be out of town and away from my PC next week so skip me this turn if needed. :)

I'm sort of hijacking the thread, but don't know where else to say this:

Originally posted by Sirian
The game in the current patch is simply BROKEN in regard to capturing AI cities post-industrial. Any such city will come with heavy penalties, and the further into the game, the more such penalties accumulate. You pretty much have to figure that any city you capture will be worthless for population or production, and good only for territorial control, any resources in range, and any great wonders it has.


Just a thought - When in modern or even industrial-age history has it happened that a nation conquered territory belonging to another and turned it into productive land? One could argue that the last real occurrence was the land the US conquered from Mexico in the Mexican-American War. Even when Germany occupied all of France in World War II, French cities were barely marginally useful productively for Germany, just as captured cities in Civ 3 are.

And you say "replace it with your own settlers" -- well, that IS the way to do it in real life. For example, Israel has been trying to do that the West Bank for a few decades.

Complain all you want about that, but it IS realistic...

Shoot, missed that somehow, tnx for the reminder.

I'll play the game tonight.

With regards to T-hawk's comments- There's a difference between "not-top" efficiency and *useless*. Once nationalism kicks in, if you capture and not raze a city there is no real choice but to starve the city down and put it on one entertainer - 1 gold and 1 shield output. Modern era its even worse - they draft down a size 20 city to size 7 and it's going to be unhappy, as much as 13 people, for the next 520 turns. The kicker is that people unhappy that their cruel *ex*-country drrafted them is transferred to the liberators. (Same silliness as being mad for your previous ruler's whipping)

Charis

Complain all you want about that, but it IS realistic...

Hardly, T-Hawk.

The US conquered Japan in 1945. Japan surrendered unconditionally, and in Civ3 terms we conquered them. The Japanese emperor is still there, but he does not direct the government any longer, so again, in Civ3 terms, Japan was "wiped out" and I could make a case that (in civ3 terms) those cities are "under the control" of America. Or a case could be made for other interpretations, but none will line up accurately because the game is not sufficient to account for real history. Japan's people rule their own land. However, the reconstruction of their land came with our assistance, and under strict treaty agreements between our nations which remain in force today (and to which we are both still wholly and enthusiastically committed -- it is far better for both our peoples to be close allies than ever to be adversaries again -- that much we seem to have learned, and we are doing well at honoring one another and acting as friends, not just ceasing to be enemies). Japanese cities today (even the two that were nuked!) are highly productive. Even with their economy in a long slump, they are leaps and bounds ahead of (arguably) all but a handful of other nations.

If that isn't conquered lands being productive, I don't know what is.

Civ3 is just a game, and its realism must -- must -- cease at some point, in favor of gameplay.

My example was America-Japan, but there are others. ... British and Soviet forces liberating parts of Europe, "conquering" the lands, which fell under their cultural sway but which, in one way or another, also retained some form of self-control. There was, as recently as 1991, a US war in which a nation (Iraq) conquered one of its weak neighbors, and then a large allied coalition (US, British and Saudis doing most of the fighting, but many others engaged) conquered that land back, "liberating" it, and then conquered part of Iraq, too. (Heard of the No Fly Zone? Iraq is NOT currently in military control of all its airspace and territory).


I admit all of that is arguable, but it turns based on how you try to squeeze the historical facts and any conclusions you draw from them into the simple model of the Civ3 game design. That's not a fit in which "realism" can survive in any meaningful way.

It's a game.

And within the game, the elements of city captures are broken. The most absurd point of all is that the AI's suffer no penalties from whipping the tar out of their own citizens, but if you come in and conquer (liberate?) their cities, YOU get hit with all the penalties.

You may be right in that the game SHOULD reflect lower production in conquered lands, or in some cases no production, but the current implementation does so not by design, but by way of side effects from design flaws, bugs, or whatever you want to call them. They tinkered with the game to reduce the effectiveness of the despotic whip, and now need to tidy up all the side effects this caused, without undoing the main fix. At least, that's what they need to do if they want the game to play more smoothly and make more sense within its own context.


- Sirian

(Apologies again to the players for the thread hijack)

The US conquered Japan in 1945. Japan surrendered unconditionally, and in Civ3 terms we conquered them. The Japanese emperor is still there, but he does not direct the government any longer, so again, in Civ3 terms, Japan was "wiped out" and I could make a case that (in civ3 terms) those cities are "under the control" of America.


I'd disagree. We didn't conquer Japan in Civ3 terms. Japan's cities are very productive, but not for America. Only a military invasion and HUGE garrison could add them to the federal government of the USA, and in that case they wouldn't be productive just like French territory was for Germany during occupation.

What we did was nuke two cities, then they sued for peace. Part of the peace deal was, effectively, an MPP. The one thing that doesn't exist in Civ3 is the other condition of peace - that Japan switch government to Democracy and stay there.

That's the only part that Civ3 doesn't simulate - the ideological nature of war. Nearly every war in history has been ideological in nature -- and the USA is no exception. We'll ally with any Democracy, fight any war against a Despotic or Communist state, and make peace with them as soon as they agree to switch to Demo or Republic.

The other facet is the reluctance of most real-world leaders to wipe out the sovereignty of a nation. The last time that happened in the real world was the US to the Native Americans. In WWII, Germany was carved up and split among the allies, just as would happen in Civ3. But then the separate Germanies were reformed. In Civ3, that last part wouldn't happen, as the only repercussion would be a few cultural resisters.


My example was America-Japan, but there are others. ... British and Soviet forces liberating parts of Europe, "conquering" the lands, which fell under their cultural sway but which, in one way or another, also retained some form of self-control. There was, as recently as 1991, a US war in which a nation (Iraq) conquered one of its weak neighbors, and then a large allied coalition (US, British and Saudis doing most of the fighting, but many others engaged) conquered that land back, "liberating" it, and then conquered part of Iraq, too. (Heard of the No Fly Zone? Iraq is NOT currently in military control of all its airspace and territory).


Sure, that's all in Civ3. Britain and the US re-conquered the cities from Bismarck and gave them back to Joanie for goodwill. The Soviet Union conquered Eastern Europe, which remained in unproductive unhappiness. In 1991 an MPP (the UN) between Kuwait and several nations was triggered. Part of Iraq was then conquered, and it isn't productive land for the UN. Only reluctance to wipe out Iraq's sovereignty even keeps the nation existing.

The whole thing of unproductive conquered cities in Civ3 is a blanket that accounts for all the gray-area sovereignty situations that exist in the real world. They're useful for military and strategic purposes but not for economy or production, in the real world exactly as in the game.


You may be right in that the game SHOULD reflect lower production in conquered lands, or in some cases no production, but the current implementation does so not by design, but by way of side effects from design flaws, bugs, or whatever you want to call them.


I think the game's "unhappiness" can be thought of as generalized "damage" to a society. Loss of education, loss of infrastructure, loss of economic activity, things like that. That carries over to a conquering nation, and is accurately reflected in the game.

I do agree that any difference between the AI and the human player with regards to happiness is a bug. (Or it can be documented as a feature like the number of default content citizens on each difficulty.)

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled program!! :hammer:

1400 AD (0) - A pregnant pause in the battle while the leadership changes
and war plans are drawn up. Tech and the world are moving quickly, TOO
quickly!

Only TWO cities left on the French mainland? Excellent! (We're light on offense)
Tech? Only five techs from Marines, it's not far away. Replaceable Parts
is probably available for many nations quick, which is NOT good for our
invasion plans. Wonders? Everybody is trying for Suffrage - we're 15 turns
away (perhaps slightly less after pollution cleanup) That's in an Iron Works
and factory city (!), so I'm feeling pretty confident on our chances there.
Our next leader may have the option of buying Sci Method if it's researched
and choosing ToE instead. Hoover is pretty useless in this game, being only
continent wide (would build in France, but sheesh, we need our FP first)

I don't THINK war weariness will end up being a huge issue for us, and if it
is I don't mind Monarchy (NOT Communism, no way no how). Our hope is for
'serial' conquering rather than a bunch of civs at once.

Hmmm... how are our old 'friends' the Iroquois and the city we founded there?
Ah Lunde is still in good shape, except that's now Japan territory around it!

Production orders look pretty good, although I switch a few mil units to
Factories.

1405 AD (1) - The game's size is showing. I found "Panama City" at the neck of
French land and it cranks for about 30 secs.

1410 AD (2) - Egypt is either very smart or very dumb. They sign a military
alliance against us with the Greeks! They BREAK a spices contract to do this.
Looks like we get to play "FISH FOR GREAT LEADERS!" Yay!
(Loss of spices leads to an abrupt end to several WLTK. Can't help with
weariness either)

Egypt is in Democracy, so choosing war will mean and end to their way of
life. Basically they won't see peace again... ever.

England do you have any luxuries? No, in fact you need gems? What can you
give for them? Espio, treasury and 7gpt? Not bad. But why don't we give YOU
7 gpt and you give us Electricity too? Good deal, Liz! The Corporation for
another 900 (well, 25 gpt and 400 gold) Mao can shave off 40 gold, OK :P

Just to add to Egypts' woes, we pull Shaka in for Ivory and the grand sum of
... 11 gold.

To keep Russia OUT of it, we trade ivory for 110 gold and 18 gpt.
Now we're caught up in tech, still have 3000 gold, and raking in 450 gpt.
Well, that's before I notch up lux (since no one has extra spices)
Where ARE Spices? Ah! Memphis! : snicker :

The fighting continues... first shots from freshly arrived Ironclad and
cannon knock out the barracks and walls (sweet). The city is size 6, which
mean they drafted. Again. Sigh... will have to raze it, since we WANT it
to be a productive FP core city.

1415 AD (3) - Egypt strikes first at sea, and scores a Galleon and a War
Galley. Their day is coming... Greeks want peace, but I'm not going to
break my alliance with Liz for that!

The Russians start ToE! With all the Suffrage building, the Cascade will
mean we get one OR the other.

Back at those Egyptian pirates, our clad beats their clad.
Toward Besacon, we slowly move up the cannons (and army)

1420 AD (4) - Our War galley defends against an Egyptian ironclad.
England starts on ToE too. The price on Sci Method should continue to
drop over the next few rounds. China and India too? Quicker than I thought.

Rouen, a small French city alone on an island, now faces a just-landed
cav pair and rifle. Two cav promotions to elite and 2 spears and an archer
fall, along with the city! :hammer: It was never big enough to draft, or
old enough to whip to death, so I try keeping that one.

I notice the Babylons are not far from Egypt, not top dogs, and not committed
either way in the war. Why not let the AI's make enemies of themselves?
For 200 gold, they're in with us against Egypt. Do we plan to make peace
with Egypt in 20 turns? HECK NO! So we go for it. :P Hammurabi moves from
cautious to polite.

1425 AD (5) - Japan and Greece join a trade embargo against us. So....
Japan... that's whose side you're on. Greece has been a MAJOR weasel!!
Bought in by the Russians, they have paid handsomelely to several civs
to start war against us. Perhaps now we turn the heat up a bit against
Greece and damage their relations/ability to foul more civs??! :mad:
No sooner do I finish that sentence then I see Greece buys Babylon into
an embargo against us. (Some "Ally" Babylon is!!)

Mid-turn we lose a galley and an ironclad, Egypt loses one ironclad.

Trondheim starts CIA (could be a placeholder or changed)

Besancon magically shrinks (more unhappiness, and another city to add to
the 'raze' list). They send a conscript rifle and spear out into broad
daylight. Going for a worker constructing a road back in our territory
about 2 more squares out no doubt. After they nicely split their forces,
we mop them up. Besancon is razed. Now just two French cities left, each
on a different island. If they can offer us something we'll extort for 20,
else finish the task. Hi Joan... NOTHING at all to offer except puny
Amiens? That's unfortunate... still... I would much rather land a galleon
on Egypt soil than your little islands. And the people who stop whining
about war weariness... I will be merciful for now, so that I can focus
on Cleopatra and rattle Alex' chains a bit. (Sheesh, we don't even get
a free defender in a peace treaty city?! bah) At least Amiens is now
a 'Viking' city with Viking people. (Magic?)

Wowza are the people happy with the peace treaty with France! Major happiness,
and can kick back lux slider some. Some?? 0% instead of 50%! Even Paris is
happy :P

1430 AD (6) - Ah yes, Alex. Hmmm, no active ally with England right now?
We'll take ally vs Greek and Scientic Method for about 1250 gold equiv.
She'll embargo Egypt for free. So will Mao. Babylon is polite although
embargoing us? They'll embargo Egypt for free? Odd stuff... India will for
free embargo Greece, Japan, and Egypt. Greece is in Commnism, btw :P
Japan is furious at us. (oh well)

New plan hatched! Switch Trondheim off CIA to ToE. No one has significant
progress on ToE, but we're well ahead on Suffrage. Suffrage takes 800 while
ToE 600, so if we finish Suffrage first, we lose ToE to cascade. If we finish
BOTH SAME TURN, we get both and our foes are out a ton of shields :D
Suffrage due in 7, ToE in 10. I plan to slow Suffrage by (just) 3 turns to
make them hit the identical turn. I don't think any competitor is THAT close,
within 3 turns, given we're building it in an Iron works city (and how poor
the AI is at developing railroads)

Egypt plan? Hmmm... Army is too fat to fit on a ship. 8-\

1435 AD (7) - Tokugawa demands Sci Method!!

:rotfl:

He declares war, but we're laughing too hard to notice!
(Our dinky island in the area, btw, has a unit on every square, it can't
be taken pre-Marines) Showing he has NO sense, Japan declares war on
England too. India and Egypt sign an alliance against.... Babylon?
(What a tangled web!)

Oh, if you thought THAT was funny, you needed to see what happened next.
Egypt lands next to two cav, down south, with a settler, spear and sword.
Up North, they land near our ARMY with a warrior, spear and a...
War Chariot!!! HAR! :lol:

But it gets better... while wiping out France and having tons of elite
battles did not yield a leader, that silly War Chariot *DID*

[dance] FP time!

A few looks at diplo, we get Silk from China for about 300 gold.

With the GL, a good point to turn it over (several moves left undone this turn). KEY issue - Forbidden Palace.
The leader is in Panama City, our centrally located 100% Viking town on
the choke spot in France. Not far from Egypt, I think it's probably the
best place, but wanted to see if the other players had a better idea
before pulling the trigger. Rheims was the target but has 11+ unhappy
people due to major whippings and draft - it may never come off being
a single entertainer city :P Paris seems ok, but... it's close enough
to Panama it would be a 90% productive city, and it's not 'natively' ours. If next leader likes a better city, please say so and try to get input if you get the chance, tnx.

Other *KEY* item -- TAKE SOME SHIELDS OFF VIBORG and manage it to finish
in 9, not 6, SAME TURN as Suffrage. That way we get both Suffrage and TOE.
On the turn before we get ToE, you MUST choose the tech you actually want.
Ignore the '10 turns' into Replaceable Parts, those are just 10 beakers,
nothing lost. I think we do actually want Replaceable Parts, and then
either Atomic Theory, Steel or Refining. From a cost point of view
Refining is a heavy 160 tech cost, Steel only 140 (so NOT that one),
and Atomic is the costliest, 200. But... we're headed for Marines and
don't need Hoover (afaik) so it's not on the top priority path.

There is a settler in Orleans who just hopped off a boat. But that
was meant as temporary, due to the ironclad in the area. Get him back
on board and into Southern ex-France asap! (Or divert to Egypt if you
land there and raze the first city, can use him to establish a 'native'
beachhead) Just landed an explorer in Amiens to keep the small island
impregnable. (But it's a flip risk if we get no more garrison there)
You can leave the cav for garrison or put the second explorer there, and
take the cav up to Rouen, or whatever you like.

We're in good shape men!
Good luck, (Ozy up, shadow on deck)
Charis

We finally got our leader!! [party] :viking:

Good turn, I am glad we finished off that continent, and it sounds like the Eqyptian attack was a blessing in disguise. (We were going to attack them anyway, I think, so this may make the War Weariness easier to deal with). It will be important to keep track of all these alliances, etc. so we dont accidently offend one of our "Allies" by making peace too early.

As for the Wonders, I understand your strategy, and there is a huge payoff if it works. If I remember, the others had started Suffrage before we did, but I would guess that Viborg, with Ironworks, is at LEAST twice as productive as any of their cities. Still, might be worth investigating a couple of the rival cities to make sure we have enough of a lead.

Forbidden Palace - I am suprised Rheims is so unhappy, even after the war is over. It was a good location, being so close to egypt. Panama will do, however, if we can build up its production and population. It will also have a better effect on the southern half of the island, so we will need to settle a couple of cities there to get the benefit.

Overall, great turn, one less enemy to deal with, now on to Egypt!

Aye, I'm counting on the AI's lameness in maximizing productivity and the rarity of iron works to carry us through to glory.

And *yes*, we need a settler on those dyes *NOW* in southern ex-france, and room for 1-2 more for sure.

Roster -- with Grey out and Ozymandous out of town this week...
shadowlord <<< up, defender and invasion prep man, beachhead
Jester << on deck, probably the lucky one :P
Justus << probably "clean up" man in the French-Egypt campaign
Charis
Ozymandous

The way things are progressing, if we can take out Egypt, finish France after 20 turns of deal is up, make peace and stop allying on these silly 'bogus' wars, we'll have a brief "build up" period, with FP online and more cities just cranking, and can finally see the light of the oncoming Marine tunnel. Lots of Naval production to go, and once they're ready, with about *30* marines made, load them up on six ships (war galleys upgraded to transports) along with 2cav per boat -- on same turn declare war, bombard six cities, assault them with Marines, take the city, move the boat in, and the fast cav still have all their movement left to go. Wowza, talk about instant crippling of a nation! :D
"Intersperse" what cites you go after, and keep most of the Marines loaded on the boat, and attack up to six more cities next turn. Yum!!

Even if there were more efficient strategies, tanks etc, this campaign would be so different from any I've done I'm *REALLY* hoping we get to pull it off (at least once, in a significant way).
That's quite a war machine to crank 30 marines, 12 cavalry, and about 12-18 war ships. (Well, we have the cav and the transports) Don't know yet what civ will be most amenable to being first target (Russia???!) but we'll see who has (when the time comes) ticked us off the most.

Good luck shadow! (Remember... slow down wonder to get them due same turn :P )

Charis

Wow, I wasn't expecting to come up so soon, and looks like I get to start the next war too, even though I started the last one. Ok, I will do my best.

Shdwlord, you're up and been up and BEEN UP FOREVER in RBD10. This is symptomatic of the forum being busier and active threads spilling over to page 2, but many players (not just you) paying attention only to page 1.

How can this be resolved? I bumped the thread but it apparently slipped back to page 2 before you noticed, and this problem is growing (it's not just you). With so many active threads, if we have to "bump" them to compete for attention, that's still not going to work. Players are going to have to start paying attention to page 2, it seems to me. This would go for all players in RBD games: please keep track of ALL games in which you are playing.

Thanks.

- Sirian

Wouldn't it be easier to subscribe to the different SG game threads one is currently playing?

I'm currently subscribed to a few SG games I'm interested in following, like this one, and receive an email notice whenever someone posts to the thread. It makes it easier than trying to find them in the thread listings.

Just a thought =)

Ya, that might be a great idea for some folks. Some who rely on that option, though, have also been the most notorious at overlooking a reminder email and go missing in action for days, so that too has its limits. We all get busy and sometimes take longer or have to be skipped, but we are also reluctant to take a hard line on the deadlines. Sometimes it really isn't a big deal if someone is late or whatever. It's a bigger deal if they forget they are even on the roster of a particular game, though. :)

Just that I see more and more Bumping posts in RBD game threads, and that's not a good trend, because it leaves something to be desired as a solution. People are just going to have keep really close track of any threads they are playing, one way or another, not just scan the top of page 1 for something familiar-looking. This goes for all RBD players.

- Sirian

I should be back on track from my vacation (heh, a mini vacation from my vacation!) in the next day or so. If Shadowlord doesn't post results by then do we skip to the next person after him, or do I take it and then try him again?

Sorry to post twice in a row but I wasn't sure if just editing my last post would bump this thread to the first page or not.

It's been 5 days since Shadowlord said he had the game. I know the forums have been busy, but IMHO shadow should be skipped and the next person continue.

Jester you're up (unless someone has an objection).

Oh, and I'd agree with our FP in "Panama City" since it shouldn't be too far off from the initial plan for Rheims and it might even give a bonus on the Russian and Bab's land masses as well. :)

Good luck Jester!

I'll see if I can play this out tomorrow morning.

Jester

Okay, not much happened during my turn, really. I didn't have the forces to invade egypt, so I didn't. Our navy, sadly, is mostly at the bottom of the ocean, thanks to egyptian ironclads. The russians and egyptians are mostly just fighting it out for water control.

However, we did...

-Get both suffrage and ToE
-Build two cities on the south french continent
-Develop some more infrastructure
-Build the Forbidden Palace in Panama
-Buy Replaceable parts, combustion and refining from babylon for... 3400 dollars (what, the ToE was coming! I wanted to go into it with as much tech parity as possible.)
-Got Atomic theory and combustion from ToE, set research on mass production, now at 7 turns making 44 gpt.
-Got limitless oil, 3 sources already, one more easily attainable, possibly more, didn't check.

However, there is one hitch in this plan. Egypt has rubber. Two rubber. OUR rubber. We have NO rubber.

This is not a tenable situation. So, for the next couple rulers, we need egypt, preferably all of it. I haven't left this with as good a military situation as I maybe could have, but we could convert the core over to cavalry and artillery, take the rubber at that little island northeast of southern france (forget the name) and start pumping infantry. Then, it's going to be all about marines.

So, good luck with the egyptians!

Jester

P.S: There's a few things fortified in south france and panama that maybe shouldn't be, but I didn't want to have to keep spacebarring every turn. Just so you know they're there.

I just got the game, haven't taken a look at it yet, but it looks like I am heading for Egypt!! I have a paper due for CGSC this weekend, but I will try to play tonight.

I know I spelled that wrong, but anyway....

This was an intense turn, lots to do, sorry I'm too tired to post a better narrative tonight. In summary, I decided that we must upgrade/modernize our military, so right off the bat I started spending money. I upgraded 8 cannons and a catapult to artillery (380), 4 War Galleys to transports (280) and then rushed 6 Destroyers at various harbors near the front. I also rushed several riflemen, and a settler to use in replacing enemy cities. Also, by rushing a Marketplace at Rheims, I overcame their horrible unhappiness, and it actually became a productive city. All told, I spent about 3000 of our 5000 gold, but I then made the trading rounds, selling Atomic Theory to our allies (India, China, England, Russia, and Babylon). In total I got over 2000 lump sum and 300+ GPT, also got Ivory from India which helped with happiness. I did NOT sell combustion, although they eventually developed it, and at the end of my reign we have Mass Produciton, which I also have not sold. That will be a decision for my successor.

The majority of my turn was consumed with attacking Hiero, small city on an island SE of French mainland, but the nearest source of Rubber. 1490-1500 was spent gaining control of the seas, the destroyers sank 4 ironclads, two frigates and a couple of Galleons, and the russians sank a couple more. I then began to bombard Heiro while I landed my invasion force, looked good. Used the two explorers to pillage the rubber, then landed 7 artillery, 4 cav, our Knight/cav army, and a couple of Riflemen. The destroyer bombed the city down to size 6, more good news. Then Egyptians counterattacked out of the city with two INFANTRY, which they didn't have when I landed (at least the defender showing was a rifleman). They captured the explorers, and killed a cav. The next four turns turned into a race, as I bombarded the city down to 1, destroying every improvement, but lost several cav trying to take the city. Finally, in 1520, I had to make an all-out assault, because the Russians had landed a stack of cossacks and I was afraid they would take the city, and the rubber. After 3 Cav and our army each went down to one HP, my last Rifleman attacked, killing his last infantry (1HP), and going elite in the process!!! :goodjob:

In 1525 I landed a settler and rebuilt the city on the rubber (Firestone;) )
Unfortunately, I noticed later that that meant I couldnt get the whale tile, but at the time I was focused on getting the rubber connected. I disbanded the remaining frigate, then rushed the harbor in 1 turn. Voila, instant rubber factory! Also I landed another task force at Avaris, near Lindholm north of the mainland, with two destroyers and several riflemen and arty, I took the city. Again, I razed it and landed a settler to replace it, it should be a useful base against Northern egypt. Upgraded 41 Riflemen to infantry (thank goodness for Leo's).

Throughout this entire time, I sent one of the first destroyers to bombard Egypts other source of rubber. The rubber must have made our shells bounce off, becuase even with 3 Destroyers, and 3-4 Babylonian ironclads firing every turn, we have not disconnected the rubber. Several times I have destroyed the railroad, only to leave a road beneath still connecting it, then she sends a worker and some riflemen out to rebuild it!@#$@#!
Then, when I fire again, I damage the riflemen, but not the road!!
However, that is the site of our first landing on the Egyptian mainland, which is where I left off.

We are one turn away from Amphib War (at 90% science), so our marine plan is close to fruition. We just completed our first Battleship, and our capital Trondheim will complete Battlefield Medicine next turn. (Would really have come in handy during my attacks on Hiero). Our main landing force is adjacent to the rubber, south of Elephantine. It is 4 infantry, 4 Cav, 7 artillery, and 6 destroyers for fire support. As a reserve/second wave we have our Knight/Cav army, an elite cav, and a settler, with 3 transpors, at Panama city, as well as several infantry near completion. They can be switched to marines next turn. Also, another transport with another elite cav and two artillery are coming from the east side of panama city. We have another task force forming in the north, near Lindholm. This has two transports with 9 Infantry, 2 arty, a Cav and a new Army unit (built at Hladir). This group also has a destroyer and our new battleship for support. I did not fill the army yet, left that for our next leader, there is plenty of vet infantry there. I thought about waiting for the marines, I am not sure if an ARmy can still conduct amphib attacks, but even if it can't it might be worth it for the higher attack factors.

We still have 2152 gold, but only making 51/turn with 90% science, 10% luxury. We have been starting to see some war weariness, at 10% luxury about half our cities are in WLTKD, 20% would be better, but on the other hand we could afford to go without it, but the celebrations would end :(

I will leave the rest of the invasion strategy up to Charis, we have the beachhead in the south, and ready to land in the north, I think the key is destroying their rubber. I haven't seen any oil, or any ships for a while for that matter. Greece had 2 oils, since they were allied I thought they might be trading them, but between one of our destroyers and the Indians, we did destroy the roads to both of them.

BTW, this is a true world war, I cant even remember who all is at war with who. Babylon asked us to get involved agaisnt India, I think, who we have been trading with, so I said no, but every turn there were new alliances/embargos/wars breaking out. I just tried to keep focused on Egypt, they have been enough of a challenge. I thought about turning to finish off France, the peace treaty 20 turns was up in 1525, but right before then they declared war on Egypt! Plus that Hiero city took more than I thought it would. Again, that could be done with forces from the mainland/Panama city, they only have one city left, I leave that up to you.

Exciting turns, unfortunately did not get much done on my paper tonight ;) I will be busy tomorrow!!

I have to pass (health-ish related), see:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=259327#post259327

EDIT -- originally was:

Got it

Marines are almost here??

[dance]

Wonder if I'll get to use them or just set up the next guy ?
Good job, Justus :D

Charis

Charis: Hope you are feeling better soon, I would recommend getting out and getting some fresh air, but for me that would mean golf, and that probably wouldn't help the wrists.:p

I believe this means Ozy would be up next, and Shadow after that, I'm starting to lose track. If so, let us know when you have "Got it" so we are back on track.

BTW: What is the procedure with the new patch? Will our savegame work if I upgrade to 1.21? If anyone knows, let me know, I would like to start using it, but I don't want to mess up the old game.

Hrm, I guess Grey Fox is out of this one permanently?

Looks like there are just three of us in it for now then (not counting shadow, he's been MIA for over two weeks now).

What is the concensus on patching? I have already patched to 1.21 but will remove and install the game again if everyone wants to stick to 1.17.

Let me know.

I have not patched yet either, was waiting to see how well it worked on other save games. If you can run it in 1.21 without any problems, go for it, and I will upgrade also. If there is anyone out there with negative experiences, let me know. Also, I would like to confirm who we have left in this game, right now it looks like Ozy, me, and Jester, and Charis when he recovers. Is that correct? I do want to continue, it is getting to an interesting era with marines, I have not had the chance to use them much, too many pangea or large continent maps.

Hrm, sorry I didn't keep exacty turn records, but here's the jist:

- We have marines, my first attempt to use them worked decently, but the second failed horribly. If we plan to attack with them we'll have to have either i) a LOT of ships or ii) a LOT of carriers with full loads of bombers. I lost 8 marines without killing ONE infantry, this is not good. :(

- We're in a monarchy. We were never in a democracy and I stayed in a Republic as long as possible, but when Trondheim hit 50% war weariness and I'd only taken two Egyptian cities, I swapped us over.

- We're in the modern age. Russia, China and India appear to be the main researchers. I sold Motorized Transportation on my initial turn for Flight and bought both Electronics and Radio before I could research them at 4 turns each.

- We're at peace with everyone BUT Egypt but no telling how long it will last since almost everyone is cautious or worse with us now. I don't know what crawled up Cathy's butt but I couldn't get her to polite but once for about 2 turns, she's stuck on annoyed. *shrug*

- On my initial turn I loaded all the troops unloaded in the south and redeployed them in the north to take the silks on the Egyptian mainland. I had to run 20% lux for about 4 turns until I razed the city and built one of our own nearby but we have 7 native luxuries now. :)

- I didn't raze Thebes (captured last) or Alexandria because they had Wonders and I like those. :P Alexandria I probably should have razed because the Hanging Gardens doesn't help us much but Thebes has Bach's cathedral and that's a good one for us.

- I tried to build airports on each of the land masses that had more than one city on them so we'd be able to airlift from almost anywhere. Helps to be able to airlift tanks and not have to send them all over in transports.

- Thebes NEEDS more troops in it to keep it from flipping. I had been trying to build workers from Alexandria instead of starving but hadn't been buying the workers fast enough, although it is down to size 4 now (Thebes is a 5-6 I believe).

- Beware the Egyptian longbowmen when you attack. :D I severed their rubber and then horses and saltpeter when they started sending Cavalry against me. All they can draft now is riflemen and archers, just be careful to try to bombard all roads leading to the rubber down south.

Have fun! :)

Sounds like a great turn! I think you're right, for now it is you, me, and Jester, until Charis gets back. Jester should be up now, then I will be after him. Did you play with 1.21? If so, did you notice any problems? Hopefully not, I want to upgrade, but have a couple of games I am in the middle of.

Okey dokey, we're all good to go here.

When are we patching?

Jester

I thought Ozy already had, that's why I asked how it went. I guess we can go ahead and upgrade now.

Ah, sorry for the late response, but I already patched. I didn't notice any problems at all, except that the AI's didn't seem to all have any given tech at the end of each turn it was discovered.

Seems like Russia, China and Bab's are the top science groups for now with England, Zulu, India and Greece behind by a tech or more.

BTW, it's a global dogpile with almost everyone one at war with everyone else. I made peace with everyone but Egypt (not sure if I mentioned this already), but everyone else has MPP's and alliances with everyone else as it is.. heh...

These turns are getting longer and longer, aren't they?

I've played out 5 turns. I'm posting the game up for grabs now. If nobody takes it by the time I can play the last half, I'll play them out.

I'm just not sure I can finish this round soon enough, so I thought I'd give the option of moving on past me.

My turn's been pretty sleepy, mostly researching computers and fission, starting the seti program and ordering research labs everywhere they'll fit.

I think this is going to be a space race game, whether we like it or not. This is a good thing, because we're almost guaranteed to win it.

Fisson is coming along. When trondheim finishes its research lab, prebuild something, either for UN or Manhattan. Diplo is disabled, right?

Giza was razed, I'm moving some troops to take memphis. Thebes looks like an NRA gun show, no way is it flipping on us. Just to be safe, though, razing memphis will really help.

Oh, and something new (I think) with the patch: The science advisor told me that we are funding our research GENEROUSLY! OMG! Like, totally! You mean we shouldn't increase funding? What? Has he ever said that at any time in the past? Not that I've seen, anyway.

Rocketry is widespread, but expensive. Should we buy it, or research it at 4 turns? Dunno.

If anyone gets this game, good, run with it. If not, I'll return to finish it soon.

Jester

They finally fixed the bug in the Science Advisor where he will use the "more than adequate" sayings instead of the below adequate sayings. I first noticed it the other day as well. :)

If we get a GL, we need to try to build Hoover in Memphis, otherwise Cathy will get it.

Sorry for my prolonged absence, a couple of drunk teenage boys got upset with my step daughter, and threw a couple of beer bottles at our windows. 1 of them managed to get threw and soaked my computer, fried it. Sorry it took so long to post here, I just had a bunch of other stuff on my mind.

Justus, you're up.

I got the message, I am at Guard this weekend, but I should be able to play tonight.

It is 1685, and our two bitter enemies, France and Egypt, are both destroyed. When I took over, I moved some forces from Thebes into attack positions near Pi-Ramses. I also rushed a couple courthouses and upgraded about a dozen infantry into Mech Infantry. I also switched a couple cities over to bombers.

In 1635 we took Pi-Ramses, and attacked Memphis, and almost took it, but instead lost our Army of infantry trying to take out the last conscript infantry!!! It fell the next turn, and we captured the city with a market, aquaduct, mank, factory and hospital!
Meanwhile I flew in mech infantry from several continents to reinforce and garrison our new cities.

1645 I took Byblos, razed it, but sent a settler to build a new town, Askirg. I traded with China to get rocketry for computers and gems, then sold computers to Russia for 60/tn plus 420 gold.
1650 Elephantine fell, then 1655 our tanks rolled into El-Armens. The last tank generated a Great Leader, Baron Richtoffen came to our assistance. I sent him to Memphis, where he rushed Hoovers Dam, beating the Russians, among others. I also started the Apollo project in Trondheim.

Russia, it seems, is still our true enemy. After the previous trades, they traded Space Flight for Fission and some gold/turn, then declared war when I asked their cossacks to leave our lands (they had landed near the island south-east of France). They also drug France into the war, and I was determined to make them pay for it.

1660 We completed Hoover Dam, and our landing force took Dijon, mostly with Marines. The next turn, our tanks moved on Aslya, and we got a new Great Leader!! (Hesling, I think). Anyway, we had no pressing needs right now, so I returned him to Memphis, and he is awaiting our next leader's orders. (More on that later).

1670 I landed a tank and some mech infantry at Grenoble, and after several bombing runs, they took out his Rifleman and 2 spearmen, destroying France once and for all. I also finished off the Russian Cossacks, and sent a couple of destroyers to check out the Russian lands. One was attacked by a cruise missle, but survived.

By 1675 I had landed forces on the remaining two Egyptian islands, and was nearly finished with them once and for all, when suddenly ElArman flipped on me! Two population overthrew 3 mech infantry?? Anyway, I rushed some tanks down, and retook it in 1685, eliminating the Egyptians.

Meanwhile, in 1680 we finished the SETI project, and Russia switched over to the Manhatten project, which they are probably close to getting. I have completed 4 SAM sites, and the fifth will complete this next turn, which will allow us to build the Strategic Defense. I think we definitely should, maybe use the leader to rush it at Memphis. Other choices would be to build it at Viborg and save the leader for Cure for Cancer, but we now have several Elite tanks and Mech Infantry, so we could probably get another GL quickly if we used this one, and I do think the Russians are close to finishing the Manhattan project, since it has cascaded ever since the Hoover Dam.

Otherwise we are in good shape, several cities are building riflemen because the culture flip took out a rubber source, and I had already made a trade agreement for our second one. It is back online now, but those cities should finish the riflemen so we can upgrade them to Mech Infantry cheap. There is a new Carrier battle group forming NE of our home island, Carrier, Destroyer, 4 bombers, and a couple of transports. One has a cruise missle, I meant to load it on the carrier, but it went on the transport.

Anyway, our next leader (Ozy) will have some decisions to make. We are only at war with russia, and have some allies, England, Babylon, and one or two more. Most of them were brought in in 1670, so we need to stay at war for a while. However, once our navy gets into position, we can keep them from coming near us, so it is up to us to decide if we want to go on the offensive or not. I think we should, we have a strong military, and with airports etc. it would not take long to concentrate our forces to make 2-3 strong landing task forces. We have several bombers already along our eastern islands, plus the carrier to base them on. We may need another carrier to land on the two parts of Russia.

We are also well positioned to go for the space victory, we are 5 turns from synthetic fibers, and only 3 more turns I think from completing the Apollo project. Either way, we are in good shape, should make for an interesting set of turns!!

Got it, I should be able to play tonight (iffy) or tommorrow night (likely).

Sounds like fun. :)

Since I am home today (sick day) i decided to go ahead and play this one.

I took a few extra turns to even up the time-line, I stopped at 1750 (started at 1685).

Notes:

- Still at war with Russia. I found that entrenched Mech Infantry is hard to root out. I think we're going to need a bigger gun (to paraphrase a line from "Jaws"). I unloaded 5 transports full of artillery, modern armor, tanks, mech infantry and other assorted units around Sevastopol and when I lost about 5 modern armor attacking one Mech infantry I stopped and fortified the units awaiting more artillery.

- We've researched Synth Fibers (you could tell from the modern armor comments I am sure), Nuclear Power and working on miniturization.

- I tried to build Solar Plants or Nuclear Plants where I could, so our production is pretty decent.

- I did so well in bombarding the rubber when we attacked Egypt, but forgot about it when I started attacking Cathy. :( I'd raze the first city I've surrounded (settler is in the mass of units around there already) and build an airport and we should be good (you all know this already I am sure).

- Japan allied with Russia to attack us and after about two turns of having Japanese bombers try to blast our southern Ivory city I decided to help the situation a little, so everyone else in the world, except Greece, was allied with us vs. Japan and Russia, so no peace treaties!

- We're doing decently in research, I think I left it at 70% or so with 20% lux (to try to get more WLTKD, than for unhappiness problems) with over 2K in the bank and still making a profit.

--Have fun, watch out for those Russian fighters, they are hell on bombers..

Hello....

I am not sure who is still playing this game, I know I was up before Ozy, so I shouldn't be up again, unless it is just down to the 2 of us. If anyone else is still interested in playing, please post and let us know. Thanks.

Justus II

I think it's Jesters turn, if he's still around...

*sigh* For as good as this game started (team wise) it sure has dwindled down a bit.. :(

Oh well... Maybe we should just do the space thing to get it over with? Conquest is good, but with only three people left in the rotation (and turns seeming to take a week per person to get and play) maybe this thing should be put out of it's misery sooner rather than later.. :(

My turn? Jeez!

I suppose if I haven't been skipped by now, I could take my turn...

Why on earth didn't someone boot 'n skip me?

I'll see if I can keep this going, then.

Jester

Just for amusement,

Jester
Thiazi
Justus II
Charis
Grey Fox
Ozymandous
shdwlord

Oh, and Jaffa as an alternate.

That was the original roster. Some people have dropped, I guess, I haven't been paying enough attention to that, only on the game.

But there's only the three of us? Yikes. If ANYONE else on the roster wants it, please grab it.

Jester

Yes, just three left now, with Charis an unknown.

Jester
Justus II
Ozymandous

I'm a bit discouraged by the dropout rates. I know that life happens, but it would be cool if it happened less often. ;)

- Sirian

I am still interested in this game, but I will be out of town this weekend. If no one gets it by Sunday, I will try to play Sunday night.

I would play but I was the last one to play as it is.... Also, since I played this one to completion (not this game in particular but started at 4000 BC) my interest is not necessarily as high as it was way back when.

Now I want to see how we do as a group score wise and game wise since this game has already become radically different than the other I played. Oh, and for anyone worried I didn't start the other until after this one had bogged down and become really slow. I was curious to see how it would play with the Great Lighthouse in possession of the Viking Civ.

Sorry, I got caught up in a lot of stuff and forgot I was going to jump in and play this one. I will play it tonight.

What a turn! Haven't fought too many battles against opponents in the modern age, and the AI is getting sneakier, but I pushed on, and eventually took Moscow! I started with Sevastapool, once we got the naval bombardment and artillery to soften it up, then just steamrolled on from there. I forgot you mentioned the settler, so I kept Sevastapol, but razed the next city, Minsk, and founded a new one Risby. That is where I built the airport, Sev. got a marketplace to make it happy, and somewhat productive.

Next was St. Petersburg, which I kept, then Odessa, which was razed and Jelling was built, and finally Moscow, which was kept. By the time I got to Moscow, I had pounded it with 3 Battleships, a few bombers (those fighters are tough, but I did take out a couple of them myself), and about 15 artillery, destroyed the wall, barracks, etc, and brought it down to 3 population. In taking Moscow, we got a leader!!

For some reason, I don't know if we forgot about it, we had a leader sleeping in Memphis. Since we had no wonders available (except Manhattan project, which I did NOT want to build), I used him to build the SS Engines (600 shields, I think). Sure enough, we got another leader when I took Moscow, he is waiting there, I have not moved him this turn. We could save him for Cure for Cancer or something, but as long as we are fighting the Russians, we should keep getting leaders, we have a lot of Elite Modern Armor out there. Could use him to rush the intelligence agency also, or an expensive improvement in one of the new Russian cities, like a police station or a factory, to make it more productive. That decision will be up to our next ruler.

As I mentioned, I started the spaceship, (also got the message we destroyed Russia's when I took Moscow :lol: ). We have 2 parts done, Engine and Cockpit, and 5 more under construction, done in the next 1-7 turns. I wasn't sure if we were going to go that route, but I thought it couldn't hurt to get started on some of the pieces.

We are 2 turns from Miniturization. We might want to change direction and go for SDI defense. Russia is building Manhattans at Kharkov (I did try to bomb the mines there, but no effect.) Either that or land some forces to take it out or at least mess up their production.

The Russians have been aggressive, bombing roads/rails between Risby and St. Pete, sending a battleship around the north side of the island, and using their armor and mech to get behind our lines and take workers or artillery. That is why there is a line of mech infantry near Kiev. There are still plenty of forces up there, and I have been flying in one or two more mech inf. and Modern Armor each turn. Also, there is another settler in St. Pete, to rebuild at Minsk after we take it, or whichever city we go after next. By razing and replacing about half the cities, and rushing temples as I go, I think we can keep away from the culture flips, but make sure we garrison them, probably need more than I have (2 mech inf. per city, more for Moscow).

Good Luck, whoever is next, Ozy or Jester whoever is available.

I will probably be able to get this early next week. If you want to get it before then go right ahead Jester, otherwise, I'll do it when I can. :)

Hi everyone,

Sorry I haven't picked this game up yet but due to RL circumstances it looks like I won't be able to play any more succession games. *sigh* I planned to try to get to this over the weekend, but my relatives came from out of town and a new project came up in work...

I will be posting this in all threads in which I am participating.

Sorry everyone, but these games have dragged on much longer than I anticipated and the break I had from major projects at work and in graduate school evaporated, which in turn robbed me of free time. :(

Good luck all, I hope I can at least read (while at work rebuilding PC's, etc) of the great exploits that everyone else is able to do... :D

-Ozy

I'll pick this one up, and get us that much closer to finishing.

Jester

@Jester.

Tell you what guys. RDB13 won't be a good enough game to fill up the weekend.

If you get a save here today, I might be able to play a few turns of this tomorrow. Make sure I can tell how we want to win.

I'm screwed out of Civ for in indefinite amount of time. Civ has stopped working on all my computers, and I just figured out why; there's a crack growing down the middle of my CD. This was somewhat present in the original CD, but didn't touch the readable part, so I figured it was harmless. Now I'm going to have to replace it. I hope Firaxis will be nice enough, otherwise I have to drop another 50 bucks.

Until then, however, I'm back to alpha centauri.

So, go nuts, LKendter.

As for winning, my vision has always been the space race, but I think we may also be trying to conquer as many people as possible, going for that victory.

Jester

Consider this my "GOT IT".

The last of my filler games for the stuck in hotel weekend.

(0) 1770 AD - Sevastopol can eventually crank some shields.
Rush a factory there with the leader.
Diplo screen reveals a very rich Mao.
We sell him incense for a flat fee of $580.
Ivory to Babylon for $160, $6/turn

I agree - space race is the only viable choice.
To many islands to hop for Domination.

(I) China wants to cancel the RoP, and I do.
I sell him wines for $580.
SpacePart #3 and #4 complete


(1) 1772 AD - England has us by the nuts.
To get Aluminum back - Wines, SaltPeter, THE LASER, $165/turn.
(I) We can begin the KEY tech - SuperConductor research begins.
Crank science to get it in 6 turns.
SpacePart #5 is complete.
I have NEVER gotten this message before:
An agent of Sir Mao was caught attempting to steal a technology.


(2) 1774 AD -


(3) 1776 AD - We capture Kiev - it cost several modern armour.
ARGGGGGGGGG - I just realized the Aluminum problem.
We are exporting it to 2 civs, and we must have lost a source just before I got the game.
SpacePart #6 is complete.


(4) 1778 AD -
(I) Zululand / Russia MPP - guess what is coming up next?
Zululand / Russia alliance against us - the MPP won't even trigger.
Zululand declares war on Greece.
It was very satifying to see OUR interceptor shoot down a Russian Bomber.
SpacePart #7 is complete.
WAR Happy - Zululand declares war on India.


(5) 1780 AD -
(I) Science Choice - WHO CARES?


(6) 1782 AD - We capture Tblisi
(I) SpacePart #8 is complete.


(7) 1784 AD -
(I) SpacePart #9 is complete.
SpacePart #10 is complete.
The LAUNCH order is given.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-066.jpg

The final score is 4770.
Erik the Magnificent.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/RBD8-1784AD.zip

Jester, you dont have to buy another copy...

Go to gamecopyworld (http://www.gamecopyworld.com) civ3, and download the no CD patch. You are legally entitled to ONE backup copy of any CD you own.

This patch works great, you dont need the CD to play as long as you have Civ3 installed and the loading time is a lot less.

I hope this helps you too, Lkendter, since it seems like you travel a lot hehehe.

Awesome!! After it seemed this game might die away, it moved pretty quickly at the end. Thanks to our newest Viking, Lkendter, for "filling in" and bringing the launch codes ;)

For my first succession game, this was a great experience, I learned a lot about other people's styles, and about the modern age (most of my games don't seem to last that long, win or lose somewhere in the industrial). I would also like to thank Sirian again for creating the mod, and the Viking civ before PTW was even a hint!!

Well I very much accomplished my goal yesterday of trying to help closeout all the almost complete RBD games.


RBD6 is mucn closer - with slow Monarch science - at most 30 turns.
RBD8 - You just read it.
RBD13 was a bad guess - that one still needs a lot of time, but I did KILL Egypt during my reign [party]. However, I have NO guess how much more time. That one could become another weekend (stuck in hotel) filler game.

I suspect I can still find something with RBD to help close ;)

Heh, that was quick. :)

1784, eh? Well the solo version of this game I played had me launching in 1776 with a slightly higher score. :)

Great game, too bad it took so long. :(