Another save for you guys to take a look at. I felt this one of the best games I have played when it came to city placement, city specialization, and defense of my land. Unfortunatly Im not sure on why I fell behind 3 other civs and looks like im not going to end up winning. Tried to rush space race but only have 46 turns left so it isnt going to happen. Question is, is how did I get surpassed score wise and how do I stay ahead?

I did notice at end of the game I only had 6 cities where others had at least 10. Then the question is, is how to I properly judge when to expand agian? I know when to early game by the way my economy holds up but later game its harder to judge.

Please take a look and thanks so much.

Examples of what I could change would be most appreciative

Sagboy, what victory condition were you trying for? First and foremost, you need an objective, and I believe in setting this objective very early in the game. All of the decisions you make during the game should be in support of this objective. It looks to me like you set out to build a strong, well run civ. It does not look like you set out to win the game. As a result, you have a great economy, tons of wonders, lots of happy citizens, and are going to lose the game because you will run out of time.

For example, Moscow is an eye-popping culture city. However, if you don’t have three culture cities, you will not get a culture victory. One culture city is of no use. Why build Sistine Chapel and Hermitage if you are not going for a culture win? Why use a Great Artist as a super specialist?

Your city specialization is OK, but I start to wonder then I see forges and barracks in the same cities as libraries and universities. On the other hand, this may be because the save is so late in the game.

It does look like you tend to want to build “everything”. For example, why does Yarolslavl have a colosseum and aqueduct? Your citizens are happy and healthy, you probably didn’t need these buildings. You should spend those hammers on something else.

Your city placement looks fine to me. I probably would have added a couple, for example, a city 1 tile south of the gems would give you 2 gems, bananas, horses, and dyes all in its fat cross… could have been an awesome commerce city (after you did some serious jungle chopping). As far as total number of cities, you are way past the point where you could have expanded… your economy is very strong, and judging by the number of towns you have, has probably been strong for a long time. But it really depends on the victory condition, I have to believe you could have won culture or spaceship with the cities you have if you had started to pursue them earlier.

So, the good news? I think you have the fundamentals down pretty good. You are doing way more “right” than “wrong”. You’ve built a strong civ, your only mistake was not focusing on winning the game. I would suggest you pick a victory condition early in the game and make sure all of your actions are in support of that objective. Other than that, just keep doing what you are doing.

^ Agreed! I downloaded the game before seeing The-Hawk's comments, and came to the same conclusion - no clear game objective.

I counted 13 possible 'at-least-half-decent' city sites to give critical mass to your empire. It's one thing to curtail expansion before Code of Laws and/or Currency - it's another to have such a small empire in the Modern Age. I am also assuming that the Greek and Mongolian cities set up on the fringes were quite recently founded also.

The other apparent factors are; (a.) I am unsure as to why you have so much cash on hand and adding to it, (b.) why there has been no attempt to explore the map, (c.) there's several opportunities to get some trades going, and (d.) some cities are quite vulnerable should anyone attack.

Again agreeing with The-Hawk, there are some positive signs in your approach to the game, so you should look forward to successfully forging ahead with your strengths in gameplay, and supplementing these with some of the suggestions above.

I would suggest you pick a victory condition early in the game and make sure all of your actions are in support of that objective. Other than that, just keep doing what you are doing.

Hope you won't mind a few questions regarding that statement. Your previous comments on early warfare being essentially a relentless assault proved invaluable. Previously, I let war weariness and costs halt my warmongering to the point that the AI was able to be quite troublesome later.

I'm playing my first game on Monarch/Marathon. When should a person decide the victory condition to pursue and how flexible should that strategy be? Obviously, in games where one is completely dominant, space race, diplomatic or domination are possible and it's simply a matter of deciding. However, that level of domination is really at the end of the equation.

For example, in a thread elsewhere here, I had a starting coastal city as Qin with three gold mines, two sea resources, four forests, hills and flood plains. A great start to be sure. Several people immediately chimed in with how they intended to win. Is it that obvious so early in a game?

Secondly, how would a person gear towards either a space race or a cultural victory condition that was chosen early in the game?

Disclaimer: I've no experience with quick speed or classic starts.

Point #1: Ignore Score. Unless you are trying to finagle a way to a time victory, score is pretty irrelevant.

Point #2: I'm guessing here, but if you've been holding off on expanding because you don't want the science slider to drop, you are missing the point. 60% science with 8 mature cities worth of commerce is going to be a lot... a whole lot... better than 70% science with six cities. The important number for research is the amount you generate per turn (as reported on the financial adviser screen).

You've got all of those beautiful green tiles, many with goodies underneath them, just waiting for some workers to chop away the jungle. Since they are inside your cultural borders, you could even improve them all before dropping a city in place to work them (if you really feel it's important that the city be immediately productive).

Point #3: It looks to me as though you were playing completely without a plan.

Here's the first obvious example. You got Judaism in Moscow as a gift, you also pursued and won the race to Christianity. You even built the shrines. By now, every city in the world should be both Christian and Jewish, and Moscow should be raking in coin courtesy of market, grocer, bank, Wall Street, and depending on your temperament as many Merchants and Priest specialists as you can.

Instead you built two missionaries, and never bothered with the gold multiplier buildings. Judaism, well you got that for free, I can see how that might not be part of your game. But what did you want Theology for, if not to reap in a lot of cash?

In other words, being first to a religion isn't a trophy, it's an advantage that has to be nurtured into part of a winning position

Likewise, trying to build every wonder isn't a plan (though it may be fun).

My suggestion would be to consider this question, and it's implications: Why was mathematics the right tech to research first?

When should a person decide the victory condition to pursue and how flexible should that strategy be?

At lower or middle levels, I usually decide before I start the game... based solely on what type of game I feel like playing. Once I pick a victory condition, I stick with it unless I find the map to be horrible for that type of victory. Even then, I might stick with it just for the challenge. This is really a personal style thing, I like to go for fast wins. To me "going for culture" means "going for the fastest culture win possible with this map and this civ". The only way to be really fast is to completely focus. (Check out some of the GOTM spoilers if you want to see some people who really focus... and finish very early.)

Obviously, in games where one is completely dominant, space race, diplomatic or domination are possible and it's simply a matter of deciding. However, that level of domination is really at the end of the equation.

Absolutely true, in fact, at higher levels early domination is probably the only way to get those other types of victories. However, at lower levels, I believe you will finish faster if you've set the goal sooner. You optimize your play to that victory condition. This is most obvious going for culture.

For example, in a thread elsewhere here, I had a starting coastal city as Qin with three gold mines, two sea resources, four forests, hills and flood plains. A great start to be sure. Several people immediately chimed in with how they intended to win. Is it that obvious so early in a game?

:lol: I think that start would look pretty appealing to anyone, regardless of their playing style or favorite victory condition. A warmonger will see the gold as quick research of BW and some hammers to build axes. A builder will see the start of a science city for spaceship or a commerce city for culture.

Secondly, how would a person gear towards either a space race or a cultural victory condition that was chosen early in the game?

To be honest, I almost never play space race, so I'm probably not the best person to say. I would be probably be setting up my first city as a science city... getting a library, using science specialist for a GS and academy, etc. The sooner you have a science city, the sooner you get up the tech tree to space. The key to culture is building massive commerce in three cities and setting up a fourth as a GA factory. I want to find these sites asap, and start building cottages immediately (or farms in the GA factory). Production is not nearly as important (when you get to the point of needing to build temples and cathedrals your high commerce allows you to cash rush them). The sooner you are building cottages, the faster you will win.

Again, this is really only important if your goal is fast wins...

Awsome responses guys I really appreciate it!!!!. Your right I really had no plan on which way I was going to win, never really thought about it, just figured when I got to the end of the game, which ever I was closer to I would go for it. Some of my cities do have extra things in them that didnt need to be there, but that was because of lack of things to build.

Also I had a lot of gold because I was trying to go for a rush space age and just buy everything, obviously wasnt going to work.

Still having troubles knowing when to pull workers off for specialists, I know it has somthing to do to make sure the city doesnt grow beyond its means, but then it just sits thier stagnant so.....

I also really didnt get trades setup or share world maps because I kept closed in my land, didnt want to get involved in anything, wanted to practice on my civ managment techniques and maybe win through score or space race.

I guess the big problem I have then is how do I determine which win path I go for and how do I set myself up? I know what the buildings do for the most part but I just dont know how to glue it all together. Sorry if that sounds dumb or somthing....

I wasnt holding off expansion, but I do measure whether or not I can expand by if Im in the negative or if im even or making money, that soley makes my decision to expand... bad I guess eh?

Sorry if this sounds kinda jumbled, as Im reading each of your posts and then responding to one I think of. Kinda sad, been playing since first civ and cant beat the game unless I go rome and zerg on noble right from the begining.

I played a game tonight, same **** happened, I had the lead until about 1600 ad then it all went down hill, now im in a constant fight with somone so.... Let me know what I can do on this game if you dont mind.

Once agian THANK YOU SO MUCH. You guys have been very and I mean very helpful...

BTW anyone actually load up a game online to teach some people proper play also?

Recent game included:

Looking at your second game, I would say two things REALLY stand out. The first is you have WAY TOO much un-improved tiles and un-hooked up resources. The second is your cities are too spread out. You should found them closer together from the start, or if you need to found them spaced out like that (to grab territory or resources) then you should fill in the gaps with cities. It is definitely acceptable, and even desirable (in some cases, especially higher difficulties) to have a couple squares be shared by two cities.

Hook up the silver, the fur, the wheat, etc. ASAP. Found a few more cities. You should irrigate some of the plains tiles. The city at bottom right, is on a fresh water lake, which means some or all of those plains tiles should be farmed not cottaged. There is unimproved flood plains and grasslands (bottom left city). There are forests to be chopped. Your capital is starving and should have a lighthouse and harbor in it. You should have some hills with windmills by now.

You should not have 100% science this late in the game.

This game is far from being lost. 300 points in score doesn't mean much. Score is partially based on population. If you better work your land and found a few more cities, you will catch up for sure. I am not sure which techs you researched in which order, but the reason AI leaps ahead around this time is usually because they get to education and/or astronomy before you and start the universities and observatories earlier. If you did not research these techs as soon as you were able, this could be why they jumped ahead (that, and they undoubtedly have more population). I am not saying that you have to research these techs as early as possible, but you shouldn't neglect them for long.

Biggest suggestions: found cities closer together, and improve the land MUCH more and MUCH better. Also, do not try really hard to keep science slider at 100 or even 90 percent. At this point in the game, I would probably have it at 70% (maybe 60), but I would also have more cities, and more productive cities.

Anyway, that is my $.02

I never set a victory objective, yet I still win on Emperor. I just build an empire, make friends to trade with, war for more territory and otherwise play it by ear. Works for me. Usually I'm building a spaceship, while I'm scratching for enough U.N. votes, scambling for more land to win a domination and/or trying to kill everyone off in via conquest.

Culture is the only win I'd say you need to plan from the start.