Emperor level:

Only under-Emperors players except one trainer, which MUST be Emperor or higher. (TGOM) You must have [c3c] version 1.22 to participate.

Maximum Players are eight. Twenty turns for AA and MiddleA. Ten for IA and ModernA.

Requirements:

All victories except Wonder.
Preserve Random Seed (no abusing) :scan:
Allow Culture Flips
SGLs

#1 Rule: THIS IS A DEMOCRACY! DO NOT MAKE MAJOR MOVES LIKE WAR, MAs, MPPs, PEACE, MAJOR EXPLOITS, WONDER-BUILDING/SWITCHING, OR MOBILIZATION WITHOUT CONSULTING THE TEAM AND TRAINER! IF YOU DO, YOU WILL BE TORMENTED :whipped: :spank:! TGOM HAS TO APPROVE!

You must vote for world settings and civilization. Everytime someone votes, you must repost the voting results.

Roster:

Trainer:
TGOM

Competitors:
D'Artagnan59
Tribute - Dropped Out
Conquerdude - MIA
CommandoBob
Bucephalus
Chuchui Husky - Dropped Out
AnsarTheKing - Lurking
Bahzell - Dropped Out

Votes and results:

Size:
Tiny-0
Small-0
Standard-1
Large-0
Huge-0
Random-0

Landform:
Pangaea-1
Continents-0
Archipelago-0

Barbs:
None-0
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging-1 (I'm brutal.)
Random-0

Climate:
Arid-0
Temperate-1
Wet-0

Temperature:
Cool-0
Temperate-1
Warm-0

Geology:
3,000,000,000-0
4,000,000,000-0
5,000,000,000-2

Civilizations-only ones with 1 vote will be displayed:
Celts-1

Woops, forgot that I want 5,000,000, not 4,000,000,000

Why are you playing 10 turns for MA and AA but then 20 for IA and Modern? The IA and modern era's are where turns take the longest...

Good point, great Tupac.

Just as Tupac said, turns are longer later in the game. You should reverse it to 20 in Ancient Times/Middle Ages and 10 in Industrial Ages/Modern Times. Would join this game, but my conquests isn't working. EDIT: Sorry, didn't see Artagnan respond- He posted while I was posting.

It's always nice to see new faces.

I'll step up to the trainer's position. Just call me TGOM (The Grumpy Old Monk).

Votes and results:

Size:
Tiny-0
Small-0
Standard - 2
Large-0
Huge-0
Random-0

Landform:
Pangaea-1
Continents-1 (Makes for a better game - more stuff to do and learn)
Archipelago-0

Barbs:
None-0
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging- 2 (I'm brutal.(And so is TGOM))
Random-0

Climate:
Arid-0
Temperate-1
Wet- 1 (More rivers for more commerce.)

Temperature:
Cool-0
Temperate-2 (Limits the jungle some)
Warm-0

Geology:
3,000,000,000-0
4,000,000,000-0
5,000,000,000-2 (More rivers, maybe, for more commerce)

Civilizations-only ones with 1 vote will be displayed:
Celts-1
France - 1 (Late MA Unique Unit. Commercial for the money. Industrious for the worker speed. I think that's right :hmm:)

Unless you attract a horde of warmongers, I think the overall objective should be Alpha Centauri with a launch date better than 1265. As an interim benchmark I would like to see 20 towns by 1000BC.

This is not a cakewalk objective. There will be no help from the AI and no cheap multiplier buildings for research. My goal is for the team to learn priorities and intensive micromanagement.

Just a thought, but 20 turns for more that the first couple of sessions will be a lot for trainees to try to document. If the logs are not detailed, then some players will not get all the benefits.

You guys are very fortunate to have The Grumpy Old Monk for a trainer. I've learned so much from him. :cool: I plan to lurk on this one closely.

I guess I could join. I'm Monarch/Emperor, is that all right?

Votes and results:

Size:
Tiny-0
Small-0
Standard - 3
Large-0
Huge-0
Random-0

Landform:
Pangaea-2
Continents-1 (Makes for a better game - more stuff to do and learn)
Archipelago-0

Barbs:
None-1
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging- 2 (I'm brutal.(And so is TGOM))
Random-0

Climate:
Arid-0
Temperate-2
Wet- 1 (More rivers for more commerce.)

Temperature:
Cool-0
Temperate-3 (Limits the jungle some)
Warm-0

Geology:
3,000,000,000-0
4,000,000,000-1 (production! And maybe Iron Works?)
5,000,000,000-2 (More rivers, maybe, for more commerce)

Civilizations-only ones with 1 vote will be displayed:
Celts-1
France - 1 (Late MA Unique Unit. Commercial for the money. Industrious for the worker speed. I think that's right )
Greece - 1 (Makes early wars less desired for the early GA. In the end, more money and more research for a peaceful game)

Well?

I guess I could join. I'm Monarch/Emperor, is that all right?


This is fine. You are under Emperor.

I'll join. I am also monarch and almost emperor

Always fine for you, conquerdude! Good luck on the Rising Sun II! I read the original and when the updates were complete, I couldn't wait for the next one!

You forgot to vote.

I will be away from home, but there's an Internet cafe there, hallelujah! Therefore, I can sit, drink a Doubleshot, and check every day and night. I will be talking to you from a Cafe until Sunday.

Goody. I'm in my first in a while SG!

However, a suggestion: Might we make the game level emperor. For not only would that improve those who join a bit but also allow us a chance to have difficulty. (We do have TGOM/Bede as a trainer, after all. And didn't he beat Sid for the first time in an SG?) Besides, with a 1265 launch date and 20 towns by 1000 BC [Turn 80???], we're going to need both a good start and fast researching AI. I wouldn't mind either stealing techs or selling them at extremely high prices to win.

I currently play Monarch, but I jumped from Chieftian to Monarch, skipping over Warlord and Regent. I have only finished one solo game at Monarch. This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128990) is not it.

I have also been part of two training SG's at Emperor. One (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=131696) has died at 1350 BC and the other (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=130462) has only two players left, at 1400 AD. That game gets played every other week or so.

I am in one current SG at Diety: >>Tupac03 - Aztecs in Space<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162003).

I survived SGOTM 9 and have signed up for SGOTM 10, both with Team Smurkz.

My copy of C3C is in the mail, for SGOTM 10.

I would rather learn at Monarch, since I've never played Regent.

A training game involves a lot of discussion, since the goal is the WHY and the HOW, not the WHAT and the WHERE. Which means this could last as long as SGOTM 9, which began in November 05 and is just now winding down in May 06. Or maybe even longer :eek:. I'll stick it out.

That is, if I'm acceptable. :confused:

Looks to me like the level of this game should move up a notch or two, given the players who are signing on. Though Regent has its own set of challenges as you get no research help from the AI, so watching where every penny goes becomes more important.

Mid to late game tech whoring at Emperor and above makes for a less interesting game if you are trying for an early launch.

Mid to late game tech whoring at Emperor and above makes for a less interesting game if you are trying for an early launch.

Truer words were never said. :lol:

May I join? I'm comfortable at 'Monarch' but tactically reliant on superior military prowess; I have much to learn in other areas especially early game decisions.

You all still need to vote:


Conquerdude
Bucephalus
CommandoBob

Also, you all must vote for Monarch or Emperor.

I will abstain from voting as I really have no preference personally. Just a gentle admonishment however, if the residents' management skills are not "up to scratch" Emperor will be painful to watch.

Votes and results:

Size:
Tiny-0
Small-0
Standard-4
Large-0
Huge-0
Random-0

Landform:
Pangaea-2
Continents-2
Archipelago-0

Barbs:
None-2
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging-2

Climate:
Arid-0
Temperate-2
Wet-2

Temperature:
Cool-0
Temperate-4
Warm-0

Geology:
3,000,000,000-0
4,000,000,000-1
5,000,000,000-3

Celts-1
France-2
Greece-1

Emperor gets my vote

I'll join up.

I will abstain from voting as I really have no preference personally. Just a gentle admonishment however, if the residents' management skills are not "up to scratch" Emperor will be painful to watch.
How would we know?

The Grumpy One's counsels are well-worth reading and re-reading. I'll be watching this one. Perhaps even commenting, if such would be welcome.

Count me in. Glad to see TGOM as the trainer. I still have much to learn, if I am to fully move up to Emperor.

Votes and results: (If I'm accepted)

Size:
Tiny-0
Small-0
Standard-5
Large-0
Huge-0
Random-0

Landform:
Pangaea-2
Continents-3
Archipelago-0

Barbs:
None-2
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging-3

Climate:
Arid-0
Temperate-2
Wet-3

Temperature:
Cool-0
Temperate-5
Warm-0

Geology:
3,000,000,000-0
4,000,000,000-2
5,000,000,000-3

Celts-1
France-3
Greece-1

Emperor gets my vote

How would we know?

When the first line of one of my posts has every "grumpy" (can't call them smilies :) ) in it.......

Looks kinda like this

:eek: :mad: :( :cry: :nono: :cringe: [pissed] :gripe: :shake:

When the first line of one of my posts has every "grumpy" (can't call them smilies :) ) in it.......

Looks kinda like this

:eek: :mad: :( :cry: :nono: :cringe: [pissed] :gripe: :shake:
:eek: Oops!

And we're off to a great start, mis-communicating from the git-go.

And it's my fault.

I was focused on:
if the residents' management skills are not "up to scratch"
Again, how would we know that?

:eek: Oops!

And we're off to a great start, mis-communicating from the git-go.

And it's my fault.

I was focused on:

Again, how would we know that?

As far as I know the only way to find that out is put them (those skills) on display :groucho:

[QUOTE=CommandoBob
Again, how would we know that?[/QUOTE]

A possible tipoff is that you see disorder, improper builds, automated workers or mismanaged worker turns.

Example could be a worker on a mountain on the first score of turns and it has no resource. Workers back tracking over ground they had just traveled.
Irrigating grassland in despotism and it is not for the purpose of getting water to a key tile.

Not taking into consideration rivers when founding towns, for travel or defense, prior to engineering.

Libs going up in size 1 towns and you are not scientific or did not do it for culture.

Settlers being built in a town that cannot reach size 3, before the 30 shields comes in.

Exposing damaged units for no real gain or necessity. I am sure there a lot of others, but you get the idea.

A possible tipoff is that you see disorder, improper builds, automated workers or mismanaged worker turns.

Example could be a worker on a mountain on the first score of turns and it has no resource. Workers back tracking over ground they had just traveled.
Irrigating grassland in despotism and it is not for the purpose of getting water to a key tile.

Not taking into consideration rivers when founding towns, for travel or defense, prior to engineering.

Libs going up in size 1 towns and you are not scientific or did not do it for culture.

Settlers being built in a town that cannot reach size 3, before the 30 shields comes in.

Exposing damaged units for no real gain or necessity. I am sure there a lot of others, but you get the idea.
And these are bad things? :D

OK, I understand now.

@Bede: I have no problem displaying my skills, such as they are.

My Game Votes
Standard size (the game is not too long and not too short and the action is varied).
Continents is good, since the goal is a space ship launch. Should be less warring than on pangea.
Barbs, I always play with raging, just to keep me on my toes.
Climate, Temp and Age, I tend to go with the middle value.
Civ, it really does not matter. In solo games I select Random.
Difficulty Emperor. I figure if I can be taught at Emperor, everyday playing at Monarch should be a breeze (until it gets boring).

Updated Team Game Votes
Size:
Tiny-0
Small-0
Standard-6
Large-0
Huge-0
Random-0

Landform:
Pangaea-2
Continents-4
Archipelago-0

Barbs:
None-2
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging-4

Climate:
Arid-0
Temperate-3
Wet-3

Temperature:
Cool-0
Temperate-6
Warm-0

Geology:
3,000,000,000-0
4,000,000,000-3
5,000,000,000-3

Celts-1
France-3
Greece-1
Random - 1

Bold Red indicates a tie.

Nice list, v. Comments in red

A possible tipoff is that you see disorder, improper builds, automated workers or mismanaged worker turns.

Example could be a worker on a mountain on the first score of turns and it has no resource. My personal favorite! Workers back tracking over ground they had just traveled.

Irrigating bonus grassland in despotism and it is not for the purpose of getting water to a key tile. Another of my favorites. You can add mined food resources to that one.

Not taking into consideration rivers when founding towns, for travel or defense, prior to engineering.

Libs going up in size 1 towns and you are not scientific or did not do it for culture. :eek: Watch out for that one. One of the TGOM's rules of thumb is libraries only belong in towns that can generate >= 10 uncorrupted commerce unless you seek a culture victory.

Settlers being built in a town that cannot reach size 3, before the 30 shields comes in.

Exposing damaged units for no real gain or necessity. I am sure there a lot of others, but you get the idea.

I have lots of "thumb lines" that I use, most of them based on "five thousand posts of tournament experience" but none have been codified in any meaningful way. There are a couple of exceptions to that but you will hear more of those later.:mischief:

Sounds like a good and talkative bunch here...so let's make our choices, we've already paid our money.

One of the beauties of 'On-The-Game' learning is that you do learn things, usually the hard way, but that way the lessons stick.

One of the pitfalls of 'On-The-Game' learning is that you do not know if you learned the right things and put them together the right way. A win is a win is a win, but there is a nagging question: was it luck or skill?

When this is done, I want to be able to know that my gameplay is acceptable enough to join most any C3C SG and not be the weakest link on that team.

(Hmm, now where is the pressure? The teacher to teach or the learner to learn? :hammer: )

Ten Simple Signs that Your Management Skills Need Help

1. All your cities are rioting. For the third turn in a row.

2. Your builds all complete with 4-8 shields overrun. In the Ancient Age.

3. Your one worker is busy clearing jungles. In the Ancient Age.

4. After all the jungles are clear you send your worker to the other side of your empire to mine a mountain. Outside of your culture borders. Without building any roads.

5. You've lost at least 5 buildings from your treasury going below zero.

6. You set the lux slider to 80% for the majority of the game. And your cities still riot.

7. You build aquaducts in tundra cities. Without planting trees. Ever.

8. Your cities are all at least 5 tiles apart. Except in your core, where they're 1 tile apart.

9. You avoid building cities on rivers.

10. Your first build is the Pyramids.

Hope this helps. :goodjob:

Nice list, v. Comments in red



Thanks, I left lots for others to add and did not even bring up temples or my most disliked build, the Coloseum.

Very funning Simple Moneky. :D

My comments are in Blue.
Ten Simple Signs that Your Management Skills Need Help

1. All your cities are rioting. For the third turn in a row.Actually, it would be more of a sign if all of your cities had 5+ clowns and the lux slider was at 50% or more.

2. Your builds all complete with 4-8 shields overrun. In the Ancient Age.

3. Your one worker is busy clearing jungles. In the Ancient Age.Another sign would be having 1 worker and 20+ towns.

4. After all the jungles are clear you send your worker to the other side of your empire to mine a mountain. Outside of your culture borders. Without building any roads. I doubt anybody's that stupid. :crazyeye:

5. You've lost at least 5 buildings from your treasury going below zero.

6. You set the lux slider to 80% for the majority of the game. And your cities still riot. And you had all 8 luxries, Marketplaces in every city, and 5+ clowns in every city. I'm not sure if having all those and still having disorder is even possible.

7. You build aquaducts in tundra cities. Without planting trees. Ever.
General rule of thumb: Always, always, always plant trees on tundra.

8. Your cities are all at least 5 tiles apart. Except in your core, where they're 1 tile apart. Again, I doubt anybody's that stupid. :crazyeye:

9. You avoid building cities on rivers.

10. Your first build is the Pyramids.
Or the Collosus- wonder addiction in general is bad.

Hope this helps. :goodjob:

P.S. since there are two open slots (artagnan hasn't put bahzell in yet, which is why there appears to be three) and one person who hasn't voted yet (conquerdude), there are three votes left. And the current winners in the votes? Lets see: And these are not my votes.

Size:
Standard

Landform:
Continents

Barbs:
Raging

Climate:
Tie between Temperate and Wet

Tempurature:
Temperate

Geology:
Tie between 4 billion and 5 billion

Civ:
France

Note that Size: Standard and Tempurature: Temperate will win no matter what.

Ten Simple Signs that Your Management Skills Need Help
This really needs its own post. Too good not to share.

"7. You build aquaducts in tundra cities. Without planting trees. Ever.
General rule of thumb: Always, always, always plant trees on tundra."

Maybe almost always. First you often have better things to do than improve tundra tiles, till late in the game. Then some tiles had to be mined as it was done before engineering. Finally when I can get around to working tundra, steam is coming or in.

That means I do not want to plant trees, until I have railed the tundra tile as it takes longer to rail if they have trees.

Now after tundra tiles are railed, I would probably go along with always plant trees.

Note I ignored landing parties and trees as that is seldom an issue. Invaders cannot move upon debarkment, so I should be able to kill them before they can move.

Sign me up, TGOM is one of the best teachers.:thumbsup:

I can beat Monarch everytime and can beat Emperor with a AGR civ...:D,but not with a non-AGR civ...

Barbs:
None-2
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging-4
Just a thought here...

If the 2 people who voted for "none" have NO experience with barbs, it might be a nice compromise to set them at roaming or restless. I'd never played with barbs when TGOM trained me and barbs were set to "random", and my turnset came up right at the change of age. I had absolutely NO idea what to do. I sure thought they were raging, but with 20-20 hindsight I know now they were prolly only roaming...I completely freaked out at the time. :eek:

Especially if you decide to train at Emperor, barbs are MUCH stronger. It might be worth finding out how much experience everyone has with them. Just my $.02.

I've got some experience with barbarians.... I just hate how it requires land based military builds. Curragh! Curragh! Craw, craw, craw.

I vote for emperor making a majority for emperor. AnsarKing will be trained well, right?

I'm 99.99999% sure Emporor is the majority.
@vmxa: What I meant was, Plant forests on tundra if your workers have nothing better to do.
@Commando: Maybe we should make a "1000 reasons your Civ3 management skills need help (if there isn't one already)" thread.

Hmm, now where is the pressure? The teacher to teach or the learner to learn? :hammer: That depends... but the short answer is 'yes'. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CommandoBob
Hmm, now where is the pressure? The teacher to teach or the learner to learn?


That depends... but the short answer is 'yes'.

You gents have the wrong end of the stick: the real pressure is for the teacher to learn and learner to teach.

10. Your first build is the Pyramids.
Or the Collosus- wonder addiction in general is bad.
The Colossus has been my fourth build (after a pair of curraghs and a worker) before, IIRC...usually a temple before that though. Of course I also build a colosseum as soon as possible, and I use OCP and ICS (yes, in the same game). Quite rampant wonder addiction as well. But since you're not restricting what you can build (what you start with not counting as being built, obviously), you should of course stray far from such things.

Edit: My mistake, the restriction is not what can be built (although I've played two games like that with Bede et al.), but on what can be held (although whether this restriction applies at any point or at the end of the turn may vary; it doesn't really matter with the victory condition I strive for).

You gents have the wrong end of the stick: the real pressure is for the teacher to learn and learner to teach.

Sounds like micromanagement...:twitch: :scared:

You gents have the wrong end of the stick: the real pressure is for the teacher to learn and learner to teach.I seem to remember expressing a very similar sentiment to a former student of your in MSN chat last night. :mischief:

So... does anybody have a screenshot of the starting position? Opening moves are a very important component of the game. It might even be worthwhile to have everybody play the opening, and compare results.

@Tim: I've done things like that before :( You should pretty much always build a warrior as your first unit for exploration reasons. And you shouldn't build wonders until you have your second, maybe third city and a good location to build them. If you don't have any more cities, your missing out on 50 or more turns in the expansion phase and it might be all your hard work for nothing. And no good location=AI might have better location=AI will finish it before you.

Size:
Tiny-0
Small-0
Standard-6-Winner
Large-0
Huge-0
Random-0

Landform:
Pangaea-2
Continents-4-Winner
Archipelago-0

Barbs:
None-2
Sedentary-0
Roaming-0
Restless-0
Raging-4-Winner

Climate:
Arid-0
Temperate-3-Tiebreaker
Wet-3-Tiebreaker

Temperature:
Cool-0
Temperate-6-Winner
Warm-0

Geology:
3,000,000,000-0
4,000,000,000-3-Tiebreaker
5,000,000,000-3-Tiebreaker

Celts-1
France-3-Winner
Greece-1
Random - 1

I guess the file is France, Emperor, Continents, Raging, Temperate/Wet, Temperate, 4 bil-5 bil, and I delayed the water vote.

Water percentage:
60%-0
70%-1
80%-0

You must vote for water percentage. There needs to be a tiebreaker for geology and climate.

Roster full. All newcomers must break ties.

I will not be able to load the save file until the ties are broken or Sunday.

I will PM you my email for the file. You must return with your email in the PM. Hopefully Sunday I will get to you. Once you get it, post a got it message.

Cheers,
D'Artagnan

I don't mind what's chosen.

How about randomizing the ties? If we get the one neither voted for, then it looks like nobody wins anyway. (That's supposed to be a good thing. Like a compromise.)

Water percentage: (but of course this all depends on the continent we're on. We don't want to be stuck all alone. Island fortress = win!
60%-1
70%-1
80%-0

Oh I agree with both comments Tribute made. Ties should be random and I hate starting with no one to trade with/beat on.

60%-2
70%-1
80%-0

60%-2
70%-2
80%-0

Random is good on a tie-breaker.

I want a little more land, so 60%.

60%-3
70%-2
80%-0

Water:
60%-3
70%-3 (more fresh water opportunities)
80%-0

@TheGascon,
:confused:
I will PM you my email for the file. You must return with your email in the PM. Hopefully Sunday I will get to you. Once you get it, post a got it message.

The best way to move files around is the forum attachment feature. That way everybody is in on the fun (including lurkers)

How about randomizing the ties? If we get the one neither voted for, then it looks like nobody wins anyway. (That's supposed to be a good thing. Like a compromise.)

Water percentage: (but of course this all depends on the continent we're on. We don't want to be stuck all alone. Island fortress = win!
60%-1
70%-1
80%-0

Problem: Land Mass/Water coverage and Climate/Temp./Geo are randomized together.

3. Your one worker is busy clearing jungles. In the Ancient Age.

I found an exception to this. Check this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=155122) out!

Polls officially closed. File:

France, Emperor, Continents, 70%, Raging, Wet, Temperate, 5 bil

Competitors:
D'Artagnan59
Tribute
Conquerdude
CommandoBob
Bucephalus
Chuchui Husky
Bahzell
AnsarTheKing

The file will be posted this afternoon.

Fun, fun, fun! I will be playing 2nd, right? Thank goodness Monday afternoon is free for me! :D

Starting save:

125916


Timeline coming soon.

There's a bit of a grey area in the rules. What if the AI comes calling with demands? Must we consult with the team before risking war with a refusal?

You have a new lurker :)

Starting save:
125916

Downloaded the save into a folder named 'DArt01' and renamed the file to 'DArt01_4000_BC.SAV'.

Now what?

There's a bit of a grey area in the rules. What if the AI comes calling with demands? Must we consult with the team before risking war with a refusal?
As I understand the rules, they are to prevent us as players from committing the team/game to a direction that may not be wise. On our own, we should not make war, etc., without team discussion.

In this case you mention, the player has to decide what to do. I don't think the game can be saved at that point (during negotations, but I haven't tried to save there) and in any case, the AI came to us, not us to the AI.

Must have a picture please.:D

Timeline:

Beauty!:

125917

4000 BC: Settle Paris in place with a mountain NW, a BG west, a grass SW, a wheat grass S, a BG SE, another Wheat E, and two grasses N and NE. Starts Warrior, complete in 5 turns. Worker SW. Science to 100%. Writing in 50.

3950 BC. Worker mines.

3900 BC. zzzz...

3850 BC. zzzz...

3800 BC. zzzz...

3750 BC. Mine done. Warrior finished. Another Warrior started. Complete in 4 turns. Goes SW to get near GH. Worker Road.

3700 BC. Road done. Warrior pops GH. We have woken up three bands of Marcomanni warriors. Warrior survives one attack from Marcomanni2. Warrior: 2/3. M3 fortifies, M1 goes for worker.

3650 BC. Worker runs NWW. Warrior attacks M1 and barely survives. Warrior: 1/3. Warrior goes to Paris for healing.

3600 BC. Worker mines. Warrior goes NW.

3550 BC. Warrior2 finished. Warrior named to Warrior1. Start Warrior3.

3500 BC. Paris grows and expands.

3450 BC. zzz...

3400 BC. Worker road. Warrior3 finished. Settler started, in 6, just the right amount till growing.

3350 BC. zzz...

3300 BC. Worker finished. Heading south.

3250 BC. Worker mines.

3200 BC. Why should you know?

3150 BC. Nobody knows.

3100 BC. Settler finished. Budget deficit, so science to 80%.

3050 BC. Worker road.

3000 BC. Nothing.

125933

Tribute, you are hereby declared up.

If someone demands something and their military is strong or average compared to us, you must discuss. If it is weak, it's your call.

Just wondering how one goes about training. I would have expect more details for the newest players to gain some insight.

I do not see any mention of what the worker did in 4000BC, what the research selection and sliders setting were.

ZZZ is fine for a std SG, but how can a real trainee learn anything from that? I mean worker moves occurred did they not? An improvement was done, what where and why. Those are the things I would think are the most valuable to see for new players. Otherwise why call it a training game.

I just wonder, as I have seen a lot of training SG's, but I was never sure what the training was trying to accomplish, other than to say we won with this or that conditon.

Anyway sorry I felt compelled to at least mention it. Please feel free to ignore it.

3200 BC. Why should you know?

:dubious: What is that supposed to mean? :nono:

Why should you know means zzz... in my story.

It might make sense to double check the science slider. There's no point running it at 100% to get a tech in 50 if running it at 10% would also get it in 50 and build your bank account.

Agree with vmxa that a bit more detail in the log would help. What exactly did that worker mine? Is he also roading? Where was Paris settled? Near a river? On the coast? If you're already got a second settler, where is he headed? Are there any luxury bonus tiles in sight? Why are you researching Writing, and what should come next after that?

Sorry if I've jumped in before Bede has commented. Feel free to ignore my comments as well.

I take it you guys aren't going to do comparative starts?

Should we start over with a brand-new roster or stick with the old roster?

I don't see why you would want to change the roster... I was just wondering out loud if each member of the team was going to play from the opening start.... it might be a good way to pick up some pointers on opening moves...

But I'll shut up now. :D

Oh never mind.

If someone demands something and their military is strong or average compared to us, you must discuss. If it is weak, it's your call.

Artagnan, you can't get out of the game and discuss.
P.S. Screenie pleaz?

Uhh... can you post a roster? I'm like, oblivious of everything right now...

I even forgot I was in this. :crazyeye:

Roster:
D'Artagnan59-Turn Finished
Tribute-Up
Conquerdude-On Deck
CommandoBob
Bucephalus
Chuchui Husky
AnsarTheKing
Bahzell

Tribute, you are hereby declared up.
Not quite.

No one is UP until the Teacher says so. Being UP implies that it is time to play, which it is not.

A training game involves a lot of discussion, since the goal is the WHY and the HOW, not the WHAT and the WHERE. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4009481&postcount=15)

A training game is not a rushed game. Discussion and explanation take time and effort. I think we all would learn best by each of us playing the first 20 turns and then posting the logs and saves once everyone is done. Then we should evaluate them, see what went right, see what could have been improved, give kudos and wooden spoons and after all that, then decide which save to play from.

While the current turn log is sufficient for a normal SG, it is missing many important details for a successful training game. The What and Where can be determined, but the most important part of training, the Why, is not present.

There's a bit of a grey area in the rules. What if the AI comes calling with demands? Must we consult with the team before risking war with a refusal?

There is no grey area. Whatever (s)he wants (s)he gets. Or at least until the nation is a lot better developed. Get used to it, kowtowing is a way of life at Demi-god and above.

Science to 100%. Writing in 50.
Good call. Even though leaving the slider at 0 builds the bank account, setting it at 100 builds the beaker count. I will run 100% science until the bank account is empty and then turn it down to 0 if I have to. The way the math works is that 50 is the upper limit for learning a tech, but beakers still accumulate at a rate that will appear to accelerate if you leave it at 100%

3700 BC. Road done. Warrior pops GH. We have woken up three bands of Marcomanni warriors. Warrior survives one attack from Marcomanni2. Warrior: 2/3. M3 fortifies, M1 goes for worker.

:nono:
Bad, bad choice. There are three meaningful events from huts at Emperor and the chances of getting the worst (yokels) is 67%. Only pop huts that are far far from home, or when planting a city and the hut will be popped by the new city boundaries. THe hut needs to be on the far side of the new town from any other native cultural boundary though, otherwise the yokel chance is still there.

3950 BC. Worker mines.

Not the best choice. The opening game is all about food and gold. I would be getting roads to those riverside wheat fields for the gold and then water to both. The most expensive build you will have in the first 100 turns is a settler and it takes more food than shields to build it.

It is only when the time comes to build the military do you need to worry about shields. So here's the first of Bede's rules of thumb: for an early space launch, road first then make other improvements. Show me the money!

3100 BC. Settler finished. Budget deficit, so science to 80%.


So where is the settler going?

And something is out of whack with the economy. The budget at size three with the riverside terrain should be gold neutral at 100% science.

What I see here is a set of opening moves that are on "automatic pilot". Little attention was paid to the actual surroundings. I know that Cracker's Bible says to improve first then road, but in this instance Cracker is wrong. We need cash flow to make the Philosophy gambit work (I assume that is where this is going) and you get that working riversides with roads.

I am going to run a shadow 20 turns and post them tonight.

Not the best choice. The opening game is all about food and gold. I would be getting roads to those riverside wheat fields for the gold and then water to both.
I agree. Always, Always, Always road first.

So where is the settler going?

It has to be going somewhere.

The way the math works is that 50 is the upper limit for learning a tech, but beakers still accumulate at a rate that will appear to accelerate if you leave it at 100%

:confused:
Please explain this. If it takes 50 turns to learn a tech at 10% science and at 100% science, why is adding beakers better than adding gold?

:confused:
Please explain this. If it takes 50 turns to learn a tech at 10% science and at 100% science, why is adding beakers better than adding gold?

Because at 100% the net learning time for Writing is only about 35 turns due to population growth working the appropriate improvements. At minimum, which on the opener is 20% anyway, until the second citizen is out there and working a commerce generating field, it will take the full fifty. It has to do with how commerce is converted to beakers, the effects of a growing population, and the arithmetic. That is why you can always turn the rate down from 100% to some lower value when you are two turns out, which accumulates the overrun as cash instead of wasting it.

Moving the slider up and down to get to so-called break even research will break you. It should be all or nothing at all, as a general rule. Later in the game when there are multiplier buildings in place and you have a larger population to use as specialists you can adjust the budget but in the early game anything less than 100% or more than the minimum is just wasteful.

Also in the early game, if you are trying the Philosphy gambit, you need to be very careful about buildings that cost maintenance if you don't have the economy to support it, as that -1gpt can kill your budget.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC4000_01.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC3950_01.jpg

And notice that putting Paris 1E lets me irrigate the closest wheat without having to irrigate the grass first. Though that is a secondary consideration to being on the coast with fish in range.



The warrior comes in BC3700 and is fortified in town. The worker does not need protection because he will finish the watering before the borders expand and the yokels appear, and I start a curragh for exploring the coastlines, a lot safer than using warriors, faster too and I can keep the warriors handy for protection.

3650 Worker has finished watering and roading and only now heads out to road then mine the riverside bonus grass. The citizen is working the wheatfields now that they are the gold equivalent of the riverside grass.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC3500_01.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC3450_01.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC3350_01.jpg

3300 One Jute dies against our doughty warrior and the citizens go fishing to keep the food and gold coming in.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC3250_01.jpg

The next task after the replacement warrior is a second warrior for inland exploration, then a settler.

The worker is mining the tobacco as that is a 2gpt field with a road, but he needs to get back across the river and re-improve the wheatfield just outside Paris.

Writing is due in 22@100%, with nothing in the kitty.

The reason for the deficit in D'Artagnan's save is the overbuilding of warriors and the failure to work the high gold fields. With all those warriors running around I think the French are over the support limit and by working low commerce yeild fields they can't be paid for.

My mishandling of the barbarians (should have had a second warrior in Paris) will set us back on the land grab but that game stands a better chance of making the Philsophy gambit pay off, I think.

Where are you going to plant the second town?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC3000DotMap.jpg

Two possible settlements. The northern site gets sugar and is on a river bank; the eastern site will have gold and fish and coastline available along with forests and plains.

Note to next player: there are go-to orders in place so before pressing enter please check all units and cancel the orders. The settler in the picture is after a go-to and that is precisely the wrong way.

Remember - food and cash flow are the objectives here.

:confused:
Please explain this. If it takes 50 turns to learn a tech at 10% science and at 100% science, why is adding beakers better than adding gold?Beakers are gold in another form. Watch the monk. The monk is to gold as I am to... whacking stuff. Though the monk is pretty good at whacking stuff in his own right... and I've been known to find a spare shilling or three....

In the long run, 100% is the way to go, unlike the COTM 19 Sid when I needed to gain money by researching 10%.

I will settle Lyons SW of sugar.

Many thanks to the Grumpy One for the clear explication. I never realized the drop in turns for research after pop growth if the slider is at 100% at the start, even if it doesn't look like it's going to help. Focusing on max gold is also what makes this work, I see. Of course, there are beer and dancers to pay for, so 100% is not always viable, but I agree with not going with compromise research. Nothing or max possible.

As a strong believer in CxxC spacing, I was initially taken aback by the CxxxC suggestions here. However I see the value of wider spacing in the core, then switching to tighter as you expand. Much useful tile swapping is still available.

My Demigod and Deity games have just improved. Much thanks. :worship:

As a strong believer in CxxC spacing, I was initially taken aback by the CxxxC suggestions here. However I see the value of wider spacing in the core, then switching to tighter as you expand. Much useful tile swapping is still available.



Map layout enforced the city spacing to some extent as I wanted the sugar, the river and the coast without spending on culture.

We are in a little bit of a bind here, as we can't afford any more troops without putting the Philosophy gambit at risk and we need workers more than anything which brings me to :

Bede's second rule of thumb: worker count > military always, or worker count=# of cities at a minimum.

I agree. Always, Always, Always road first.

It has to be going somewhere.

I would not agree with that. If you have a river and a cow on grass, you normally irrigate first, you want the food. There are cases where roads are first and that is when you have gold/beakers as the number one priority.

I think you could even make the case that you still should irrigate the cow as it leads to more gold than road first.

Or if you have a sugar on river next to your city, you probably want to mine it since roading it wouldnt give you a commerce bonus.:D

EDIT: Which save is the next person playing?:confused:

I would not agree with that. If you have a river and a cow on grass, you normally irrigate first, you want the food. There are cases where roads are first and that is when you have gold/beakers as the number one priority.

I think you could even make the case that you still should irrigate the cow as it leads to more gold than road first.

Agree with the v. Always is not the word to choose for CIV. If the cow is on the river by all means irrigate first. In this game (an early space shot ca. 1300AD or so) the gold matters more, so when you have the choice between gold and food, choose gold unless it will hamper growth(gold in the hills), but don't ever neglect the food.

EDIT: Which save is the next person playing?images/smilies/confused.gif

Tribute should take D'Artagnan's save.

@D'A, should I just grab a turn set when I want or do you want me at the end of the rotation, or not in the rotation at all?

How about the end, TGOM?

Okay, I'm here. That test went fairly well. Wow, you guys update quickly.

SO pick up the game, look at the save and the discussion/rants above and start asking questions if they haven't been answered already. I will be back on line about 9:00 PM but don't hesitate to play if you are comfortable doing so.

And use D'Artagnan's save!

Okay, so ALWAYS is not the right word. But you usually want to road before you mine/irrigate. It's a Rule of thumb.

3000BC (0)
Look around. Hnn, it's ugly. We need both workers, population growth, and warriors to defend us. I wonder where the settler is going. A solution for the military problem is found. A rather useless, military creating city of Orleans (max size 4 until forests are chopped or 3rd expansion) will be founded in the forests, but it gets sugar. Paris will be MM'ed for max food growth (in 6.) Warriors explore. 1 is sent to near Paris so that the one in Paris can knock out the barbarian.
2950BC (1)
Ooh, settler uncovers a village. Will be popped later (not by cultural boundaries). Paris is switched to a worker. Ah, well. We NEED pottery.
2900BC (2)
Irrigation. Warrior nears Paris. Other warrior will near but not go into future Orleans to fogbust.
2850BC (3)
Oh noes! The barbarian nears the worker and Paris. Our warrior attacks... and wins with 1 HP lost. 2/3 no promotion. Orleans founded set to warrior in 5, growth in 10. Writing back to 100%
2800BC (4)
Warrior arrives to heal in Paris. Other warriors move. 1 north 1 south.
2750BC (5)
Irrigation done. Start to road. (I guess roading first would have been better. Food will either excess or there will be no extra shields upon growth. Oh well.
2710BC (6)
Worker created. Another worker started. I'll keep this up until Paris is big enough for a settler. I think this one will do it. The worker goes to the other wheat. Orleans creates and starts another warrior.
2670BC (7)
Worker 1 finishes roading. It is sent north to connect Orleans maybe the connection and decrease in corruption will be worth it? Other worker roads. Reach southern border. See a wide chokepoint.
2630BC (8)
Nothing much. A barbarian attacks us in the interturn. We win with no losses and no promotion.
2590BC (9)
Worker starts to mine after finishing roading. We will have 5 fpt. Enough for a 4 turn settler factory. Especially with all our BG.
2550BC (10)
Warriors move. Worker moved to forest to connect Orleans. Try to make the warrior approaching Paris go in. At the same time, the one in will go out to pop the village. Unless the one from Orleans can get there first. Either way, Orleans should either create a barracks or a settler next. Paris can create another worker or start a settler. Contacts are required for Pottery or else our 4 settler factory time will be severely limited (self-research to it after writing).

Hmm, it turns out that I was supposed to play 20 turns, not 10. Okay. I'll listen to my own advice. Turns out a critical error was that I actually moved units on the last turn. Heehee!
2510BC (11)
Warriors move.
2470BC (12)
In a complicated move, 1 warrior exited Paris as well as the newly created worker. They split off after the second road, the warrior neared Orleans (next to the village) and the worker landed on the tobacco. Smokin'! MM Paris to growth in 4 again. Gee, I might be criticized for building workers at such a low level when I could do better at size 2.... Another worker then. (Don't hurt me)
2430BC (13)
Orleans makes a warrior->settler. Time to see what's in the village. (I know it's randomized.) We get free maps. Clearing about 1 fog. Or maybe none.... Oh well, better than nothing or barbs. Orleans warrior goes north. I think about it and switch Paris to a settler. Agh, an unreachable deadline! (20 cities by turn 80.) Remaining worker at Paris will start to build roads to future settlements, of course, they'll be useful. There's really nothing much else to improve at this point.
2390BC (14)
Explorations
2350BC (15)
Orleans connected. Roads finish. BG's about to be roaded then mined. Warrior sees village.
2310BC (16)
We got a skilled warrior. 3 warriors now explore our north. Paris is in for a huge growth turn. Growth in 4. Settler in 12. Sadly, we are on deficit.
2270BC (17)
Working and Exploring. A barb appears.
2230BC (18)
Two workers finish roading and now mine. Barb fortifies. Another appears (in a different place). This reminds me. We're on raging right? Oops.... 1 warrior sent back. Other wins 2/3.
2190BC (19)
Barb follows. We run. Hurt warrior moves towards a hill for protection (and to find the encampment) Paris is saved from rioting. Writing still in 7.
2150BC (20)
I am tempted but this is my last turn. (for the next person) Contact the whoever they are (in the north). Trade, if possible. Paris and Lyons will complete settlers in 3 turns each. Create defense and escorts for each settler. Make sure our warrior that is most south can defend the homeland.

That is all.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Turnset1.gif

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Turnset1B.gif

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/D'Artagnan_of_the_French,_2150_BC.SAV)

How fun! Remember to always copy and paste the roster in! Of course, wait for the comments by our grumpy old monk, Bede!

Roster:
D'Artagnan59
Tribute-Turn Finished
Conquerdude-Up
CommandoBob-On Deck
Bucephalus
Chuchui Husky
AnsarTheKing
Bahzell

SO pick up the game, look at the save and the discussion/rants above and start asking questions if they haven't been answered already. I will be back on line about 9:00 PM but don't hesitate to play if you are comfortable doing so.

BTW, I had already looked at the above posts. Did you know that your "SO" made it seem like you were ranting Bede? That's very grumpy. :p Good luck on the evaluating. And don't be so mean! ;)

:rolleyes: Tribute weren't you supposed to play 20 turns?

Well... poop. Err, I remember that now. It's just that convention was 10 turns....

Alright. I'll finish the rest!

Edited. Look back if you've already read the old post.

I am going to put in a plea that we drop to ten turns from here on out. Twenty turns will force way too many decisions on the turn player as we spam out settlers. Will look at the save in a bit and post comments.

@Tribute, that was just me clearing my throat, wait until I get into full voice. You ever heard thirty couple of American foxhounds hit a breast high scent on a fine and frosty morning in November? ;)

@Tribute, that was just me clearing my throat, wait until I get into full voice. You ever heard thirty couple of American foxhounds hit a breast high scent on a fine and frosty morning in November? ;)
WTF??????:confused: What does that have to do with anything? [offtopic]

You are right we won't see 20 cities in 60 turns unless someone gets very very creative, how many cities do you all think we can get?

The military we do have should be sent to cover the new city sites

I've got some ideas

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC2150DotMap.jpg

but I would rather have yours.....

And who can tell me what is wrong with this picture?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Turnset1B.gif




Conquerdude-Up
CommandoBob-On Deck

Aside from bad graphics, I'd say the workers should be at Orleans? We are also losing gpt. But that's fine as long as we don't lose it all, right? Oh, wait, those're my fault....

I agree on the red dot. The only other place would be 1 NW but that's crowding and wastes possible coastal tiles. The only downside is that the only 2 food tiles that produce 2 food (bonus grass and fish). But of course, that is not TOO bad with our worker crews.

The yellow dot isn't that good, but there is nowhere else to place it! It can connect and be surrounded by Orleans, a coastal city on the forest next to the river, a coastal SW most city next to the sugar, and 1 more 2W and 2SW of Paris. No tiles would be wasted and minimal overlap is created. Decent growth and production for the first few turns would exist.

I'd plan on having 1 more city south of Paris 2S and 1SW as well as 1 more on the SE front, possibly 2 if we like ICSin'. We need the silks; 4N of Paris is nice. A city there could grow with Orleans's grassland. I guess a dotmap would help more, wouldn't it? It would most definitely save me time explaining.

Red Dot secures us a port city along with the commerce from the gold and forests for chops to help with builds.

Yellow Dot give us another commerce city as it is on the river and a slight chance of having iron in the city radius on the hill to the south.

Besides the bad graphics, at least one worker should be on the sugar tile improving it.

My attempt at a city placement map.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/211/artcityplacement1rx.jpg

WTF??????:confused: What does that have to do with anything? [offtopic]
Choxorn, Bede has a wonderful and witty sense of humor...just ONE of the delightful things about being trained by him (he trained me too). I'd say it was a hint preparing you guys for why he's called Grumpy. Just wait until he gets info full rant mode, and you'll understand about the hounds. :p

You are right we won't see 20 cities in 60 turns unless someone gets very very creative, how many cities do you all think we can get?

The military we do have should be sent to cover the new city sites

I've got some ideas

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC2150DotMap.jpg

but I would rather have yours.....

And who can tell me what is wrong with this picture?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Turnset1B.gif




Conquerdude-Up
CommandoBob-On Deck

The wheat is mined when it should have been irrigated. And maybe the workers should be in a gang since more tiles are currently being improved than we have citizens to work.

@ Bucephalus: That is probably it(:clap:), one of Bede's rules(TM), i think, its you shouldnt mine food bonuses.:nono: Either that or the bad graphics.:p

@ Bahzell: I like your dotmap.:goodjob:

B's dot map is practical and useful.

No one has yet nailed the biggest :nono: in the picture. The worker north of Paris is putting a road down on a field we won't get to use until after the Jacobins send tumbrils through the streets.

I thought long and hard about the mine on the wheat and decided that move was "OK" if we are going to build a granary. The stronger move since we don't have a granary would have been to irrigate the riverside and the wheat. Probably the same number of worker turns and we would have had +6 food at Paris at pop2. And then +8 at pop3 if I am doing the sums right. Shields are not the limiter when it comes to spawning settlers - food is. So any time you can have extra food go for it. And then use the whip to pick up the last twenty shields.

Ganging industrious French workers would be an insult to the French workingman and we just might have them burning cars on the boulevards. Not really needed as then they would be improving fields before they could be worked. The best plan is to have a field ready for working just as the citizen is born to work there. Tree chopping sometimes means worker gangs if you want to get the timing right, however.

The weakest move of all however is not having a warrior standing on a hill near the two planned city locations. Barbarians before the uprising only come from busting camps, and camps only appear when you don't have a view of the terrain. IIRC barbarians don't spawn themselves until the "Change of Era" uprisings and don't spawn inside cultural borders or within sight.

That first camp was just bad luck and would have made trouble no matter how it was handled. Any other barb problems have been as result of our moves, however.

The wheat is mined when it should have been irrigated. And maybe the workers should be in a gang since more tiles are currently being improved than we have citizens to work.

Oh no, that is untrue. The wheat SHOULD be mined. We will have a total of 5 fpt. 6fpt is useless unless we need to use a forest. But we don't. We have plenty of mined bg.

Sorry to break in, but I fiercely disagree with Bede's suggestion here:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC2150DotMap.jpg

Red dot is a bad location. It should be on top of the gold hill. Why? Cities on commerce-tiles do not lose any commerce in Despotism. Cities that use commerce tiles, but are not build on them do suffer from the Despo-penalty. And the strategical advantage red dot might have over gold-hill is non-existing (as I can judge from the picture).

Bede is a great teacher, but has some weak points (his strong points outweigh them by a lot). One of them is city-locations.... But we love him just the same :) :goodjob:

From this monkey's POV, the current red dot is good in the long-term, and Rik's suggestion is better for the short-term, when every coin counts. Hmm, maybe that does make a significant difference at this stage of the game after all.

Since this isn't an Always War game, placing that city on a hill for the defensive bonus isn't crucial. Figure that if you have an enemy attacking that far into your core, you have more problems than hill placement can fix. Further out from the core and in a more aggressive game, on the other hand, hills are a major plus.

Bede's dotmap
Both Red and Yellow give us good growth for a long time, up to size 12. No aqueduct to build or maintain. ( :rolleyes: Way to go CB, state the obvious!)

Red should be built first because it needs only tile to be roaded in order to connected. That tile is a forest, which means either build the city first and chop the forest for the first build and then road it OR just road it as is. Yellow is two tiles away from being connected.

Once connected, both Red and Yellow are two turns away from Paris and Orleans (assuming that the tile north of Paris will be roaded). Paris to Red, N across a river, walk three. Orleans to Yellow, S across a river, walk two. Paris to Yellow, walk six. Orleans to Red, S across a river, walk three.

(I should state here that I prefer to road first, then otherwise improve. Not making a my-way vs. other-way statement, just want to inform of how my mind works.)

Bahzell's dotmap
The best position, to me, on Bahzell's dotmap is the lighter green dot NW of Orleans. The reason: it sits on a choke-point and can protect us from unwanted incursons from the north. Actually, one tile NE would be better. Still a good choke point for defense and a canal city between two large bodies of water. Don't have the game open (at work at lunch), so I can't really tell if the canal city would work there, but looks like it should.

I also like blue dot SE of Paris. Again, it is chokepoint, but for a much smaller section of land. But that land would be ours.

The pink dot to west of Paris could be a good chokepoint, but looks to be just a coastal city.

Commando Bob: No, the canal does not work, the passageway is too thick, its only one tile too big...:sad:

I don't really like all the spots on the dotmap. I like spread out and condensed with absolutely no tile loss. Perfectionist! That would be a great succession game type....

I guess I could make my own dotmap. But I feel too lazy. And shouldn't they be hollow, numbered squares rotated 45 degrees on a grid map? It seems easier to understand that way.

Rik is right. And I had forgotten the Commercial trait which will give the production bonus of a mine when the town gets past seven. So I would indeed plant the town on the gold.

In either case the town has the potential to be a commerce generating monster. With the gold and coast for commerce with the proper buildings we could see in excess of 100 beakers per turn from just that one town.

And the Frog Prince is right, too. I looked long and hard at that area before realizing it is neither a choke or a canal. That's another reason why it is a good thing to play with grids on so you can see those kinds of things.

@conquerdude, be careful when you open the game and go find the purple warrior in the far north before he boogies out of sight on the interturn.

We may not get to Writing in your set but if we do we need to have a plan for the next steps.

What is the next research choice?

And, since we may have an opportunity for trade, do we? And if so for what?

I will ask that whoever gets the chance to make the first trade, please save the game when you discover the opportunity and post it to the forum. And let's do that on subsequent oppportunities as well. Then go ahead and do whatever deal you think meets the objective we have set and finish the set.

That will allow everybody look at the opportunity and we can discuss whether or not the best use was made of it by trying different approaches.....

And, lastly, a big :worship: to The Meleet. You all need to know that Rik is one of the most thoughtful lurkers on the forum. I have personally learned a great deal from his insights into how the game plays. Frankly I consider it an honor to have his Orca gracing these pages. He is a lot like EF Hutton, for when The Meleet speaks everybody listens, or should!

Alright so, I've got the save, and if I finish writing, what next? I'll wait til I get a reply here until I play. And, why do you want to find the purple warrior before he boogies off? To find out which civ it is?

Sorry to break in, but I fiercely disagree with Bede's suggestion here:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/BC2150DotMap.jpg

Red dot is a bad location. It should be on top of the gold hill. Why? Cities on commerce-tiles do not lose any commerce in Despotism. Cities that use commerce tiles, but are not build on them do suffer from the Despo-penalty. And the strategical advantage red dot might have over gold-hill is non-existing (as I can judge from the picture).

Bede is a great teacher, but has some weak points (his strong points outweigh them by a lot). One of them is city-locations.... But we love him just the same :) :goodjob:
Commerce: You won't be in Despo for long. :)

Not until we get republic, which could be a while, and for that while, or people could be happy with good wealth. ;)

Or you could steal it from in AI... :mischief:

@c-d, making new friends is always a good idea. They might have something you could use.

The decision on what to research after Writing is a big one. It also has great value as trade bait and needs to be used wisely.

Now here's my dilemma: I could make a pronouncement that we must research X or Y, but that would defeat my purpose. The team should reach a consensus based on a discussion of the options.

What are the factors to consider?

1) Victory condition: Space or Military?
2) Economics: can we afford to research an expensive tech (and does everybody know how to figure tech costs and the factors that go into that?)
3) Do we stand a chance at the Republic gambit? (researching Code of Laws next, then Philosophy and taking Republic as the bonus)
4) If we don't think we can win to Republic do we want to push ahead on Philosophy now and choose something else as the bonus (Philosphy is one of the cheaper techs on the market BTW), if so what?
5) Are there any other choices that will get us closer to the objective?

That is just a sample of the kind of decision making that separates the sheep from the goats.

I've always hated military victories. It always seem that it's one leader, and the game is over. It will be won. I guess either space or diplomatic would be appropriate. But of course, selling techs to the AI at high prices might be exploited.

I'm not really sure how to calculate tech costs, but I'm sure civ assist II and the other utilities can for C3C.

The Republic gambit will most likely fail. With such a slow start, it is unlikely the commerce generated will be enough. After all, the AI normally has been able to get philosophy before me whenever I try it. So let's just get Philosophy and take something else for free.

We could choose one of our two cities (preferably Orleans) to only build military. This allows for less probable AI attacks, safety from barbarians, and a high unit upkeep cost, um rather, a bunch of MP units.

I recommend going for Philosophy, since we went directly for writing...:D We should be able to get Phil, with ease...right?

If I may, I have never done military and would sure like to know...:blush:

I am very pacifist, and I want to be warmongering for once, but in the Modern Age, where there are Modern Armor, and nukes :nuke:

But if we get Philosophy what do we do with it? There is only one meaningful choice at the moment.

And, lastly, a big :worship: to The Meleet. You all need to know that Rik is one of the most thoughtful lurkers on the forum. I have personally learned a great deal from his insights into how the game plays. Frankly I consider it an honor to have his Orca gracing these pages. He is a lot like EF Hutton, for when The Meleet speaks everybody listens, or should!:eek: Oh come on ...
I'd like to state that we have learned from eachother (and others). We balanced out eachother's weak points and learned from each other's strong points. It's not correct to compare me to EF Hutton (I had to google to know what that meant) ;)

:worship: to the Magnificent Grumpy old monk who has recorderd SID - level victories while the tiny Orca has none.

I'm not really sure how to calculate tech costs, but I'm sure civ assist II and the other utilities can for C3C.



You can DL a tool such as TechCalc or do it manually. The eidtor has the values for the cost factor for the level and the raw cost for the tech and the cost factor for the map size.

So BW is 3 at Regent and 240 is the facotr on std maps = 720. The level is 10 so it is 72 beakers for BW. Alphabet woudl be 5, so 5x240 = 1200/10 means 120 beakers. If it was Sid teh facotr is 4 and BW wold be 180 beakers.

This was done quickly, hope it makes sense.


1) Victory condition: Space or Military?

While the steps may differ, the road to Space will be the same as Military for some time. I suggest we combine them; aim for semi-Domination Victory (my term, just made up; mean at least 50% of the land be Frenchie, but less than 67%) and once we get to that point focus on leaving the planet.

2) Economics: can we afford to research an expensive tech (and does everybody know how to figure tech costs and the factors that go into that?)

I don't know enough to offer an opinion.

3) Do we stand a chance at the Republic gambit? (researching Code of Laws next, then Philosophy and taking Republic as the bonus)
At Emperor, when the AI gets a break on the beaker cost? Doubtful, but to really answer the question I would need to dig into the starting techs of our soon to be neighbors, which I cannot do from work.

4) If we don't think we can win to Republic do we want to push ahead on Philosophy now and choose something else as the bonus (Philosphy is one of the cheaper techs on the market BTW), if so what?
What an interesting idea. Iron Working, perhaps, leading to Construction? And pointy-stick diplomacy?

5) Are there any other choices that will get us closer to the objective?

And the objecitve is? (And I hope I haven't missed it!)

I think the next one can play now.

I want progress, not just planning!

I think the next one can play now.

I want progress, not just planning!
Progress without planning is just wandering. :D

We need to discuss what to research after Writing. I don't have the Ancient Times tech order memorized, so I am not even sure what options we have to research at the present time.

Besides, not everyone has replied yet.

And lest we be bedazzled by Bede (five posts back), Philosophy is not the only tech we can research. The best, perhaps, but not the only.

I'm going to play tonight. I will research philo I guess.

Well, as an emperor game, its either Philosophy now or never, and a free tech away from the AI is the main goal, IMO.:D

Anxiously awaiting a report.

And just to keep the record clear, I did not recommend any technology. There is one other choice, Literature, that should be considered.

I do disagree that Space and Domination victories have anything at all in common, unless we want to play a GOTM style game. In those games you need land and population in addition to the production and research to finish a Space Ship in order to garner a high score. So the style of play focuses on a rapid build up of military in order to dominate the map. My personal style is a little different. Military serves the Space Ship by acquiring resources, not land and population. It also acts as a deterrent against AI war declarations when the time comes for espionage.

To prove the point, take a look at the last game in the TR series. That was a Deity 5 city space victory with a respectable launch date.

YOu can look it up (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116279http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116279)

And I have an entry in the Hall of Fame that was a top ten SS launch at Emperor, and if I recall correctly all but one opponent was still around at the end of the game. (It was a while ago)

All I'm really getting at here is all options have to be carefully considered.

True. Literature = libraries.

I will play for sure after I eat.

I do disagree that Space and Domination victories have anything at all in common, unless we want to play a GOTM style game. In those games you need land and population in addition to the production and research to finish a Space Ship in order to garner a high score. So the style of play focuses on a rapid build up of military in order to dominate the map. My personal style is a little different. Military serves the Space Ship by acquiring resources, not land and population. It also acts as a deterrent against AI war declarations when the time comes for espionage.
Just adding my $.02. I've been lead by Bede in two SS games. I had been an extreme builder, expecting to have my little 10 or 15 peaceful cities build an SS, never firing a shot at anyone. What I learned was what Bede just stated...ya gotta fight to acquire resources...otherwise you may get your ship half built and find you have no uranium (or whatever), and by then it's very hard to build up your military to go take it.

So, just to that extent, there are a few similarities between Space and Domination. Most players do more warmongering than I used to, so you may not need the same lessons I did. Thanks, Bede! :)

The Republic gambit will most likely fail. With such a slow start, it is unlikely the commerce generated will be enough. After all, the AI normally has been able to get philosophy before me whenever I try it. So let's just get Philosophy and take something else for free.


You can choose your Philosophy free tech?

@Commando:
France is Commercial/Industrious. That means they start with Alphabet and Masonry. If you guys are researching writing and it's the only tech you've researched, You'll have the following techs available IIRC:

1.Bronze Working
2.Mathematics
3.Wheel
4.Warrior Code
5.Ceremonial Burial
6.Pottery
7.Map Making
8.Philosophy
9.Code of Laws
10.Literature

You can choose your Philosophy free tech?


Yeah! You really do get to choose. It's so helpful at times....

And maybe if we trade well, we'll have more options than just those 10 techs. We'll see.

I hope conquerdude does not fail to consume edible materials!

You will have those options if you don't get any new techs by the time you finish writing.

Ung.......... can someone take my turn? I can go after them. I have just WAY too much to do.

Failed to digest any energy sources, conquer dude?

Anyway:
Roster:
D'Artagnan59
Tribute-Turn Finished
Conquerdude-Skipped
CommandoBob-Up
Bucephalus-On Deck
Chuchui Husky
AnsarTheKing
Bahzell

You know, we should really have a PM system for this roster thingy.

Perhaps it might be a good time to consider which techs should never (or at least almost never) be self-researched. And to ask why exactly that is.

Democracy, Free Artistry, Navigation, Economics(?).

Just the obvious one for the Middle Ages.

The only way we'd research democracy is if we were seriously behind and needed something to sell at a high price. Free Artistry is if we want Shakespeare's... who knows? I've wanted it before!

The AI normally get Navigation first, so that is definitely out.

Economics only if we don't want to build troops and would rather Wealth it out. But that's unlikely that all cities have finished all buildings by then. Smith's is the only other reason we would do this. But that's also unlikely.

For the AA, CB, Mysticism, and Polytheism are not very desired (we should just trade), Monarchy, obviously, Horseback Riding (unless we have horses (no iron) and early war), and maybe either Currency or Construction (for they are most expensive Maybe a Republic trade for them)

In the IA, I normally ignore Nationalism, Communism, Fascism, and Espionage to focus on Steam Power, Industrialization, The Corporation, Medicine, Sanitation, Electricity, Scientific Method, and Replaceable Parts. I normally then just don't research Advanced Flight or Amphibious War.

In the Modern Age, well, anything that won't help to reach the spaceship.

I'm up, but this is not a get.

Ten Turn Plans
The first order of business is to meet the stranger to the north. They may have something worth trading for. Plan to open the game, make contact, maybe begin a trading session (for the pretty picture) but not trade, and then post back here with the updated save.

Second thing to do is get warriors on hills overlooking where we plan to have new cities. This means a warrior on the hill SW of Red Dot and one on the hill due S of Yellow Dot.

Two settlers will be produced three turns from now. Red will be built on turn 6 (turn 3, move to hill, move to hill and build), Yellow on turn 7 (turn 3, move, move, move and build).

Road to Red and Yellow.

Both Paris and Orleans make a warrior to explore and/or keep the locals happy?

Red and Yellow make workers as their first build?

Research Philosophy at 100% when we learn Writing (subject to change).

Need to plan for City 5.

Hmmm
While I see how strong a city Yellow or Red could be, were I playing solo I would build my third city near the silks to get a luxury and keep the masses quiet and productive. Not much has been said about that option and that probably means I am overlooking a factor in city placement and priority.

(It could also mean we are already connected to silks, too! :blush: )

Nice set of plans C/B.

I don't think we need any more warriors at the moment. The new towns won't need garrisons for a while yet.

As for workers, remember that Paris won't need any more worker turns, so the three we have could go to Orleans and the new towns exclusively.

So if we're not training warriors, and not equipping workers, what should the new towns do?

City placement focuses on the strongest locations first. IIRC the map, the silk forest town has nothing going for it but the silks and some trees. The rest of the land surrounding is plains and a fishing bank or two. If we watch the garrisons and keep MP's handy we shouldn't need the silks until we get a sustained population of more than four.

So if we're not training warriors, and not equipping workers, what should the new towns do?

Oh, pick me, pick me!http://67.18.37.17/2135/53/emo/eager.gif

If you dont know what to build, build a settler.

And with these towns which are growing quickly, shouldnt we build a granary, if it has not been built yet? That way maybe Orleans could be a worker factory and Paris a settler factory? All those wheat and BG's gotta be used for something, right?:drool:

I don't think we need any more warriors at the moment. The new towns won't need garrisons for a while yet.

but this is Emperor, citizens get rowdy at pop 2.:eek: or will we use the magical lux slider to fix the happiness issues?:rockon:

[IBT 2150 BC]
Yipes!

The save says 2150 BC, but it is actually the start of 2110 BC.

Dark Purple is an Iroquois warrior.

They are up BW, Pottery, Wheel, Warrior Code and CB.

Iroquois are Ag and Com (Alphabet and Pottery).

Has anyone checked the Space Race to see who else wants to share our world? (is it allowed?)

Hiawatha 2110 BC

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Dart01/2110BC_IroquoisTrimmed.jpg

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/DArt01_2110_BC.SAV).

Start of 2110BC? Uh, oops.

Anyway, that always happens. The AI has always gotten that many techs when I played. (But they rarely get writing.) So if we can hold out for a few more turns (6 or so, right?) and make another contact, we'll be doing fine.

Otherwise, why is the save there? I see no report and no point in only playing 1 turn.

Not much dealing to do with that one.

In another matter, I will have to relinquish my playing spot. Drive failure forced a reinstall of Civ3 and it won't. The CD is badly scratched, so if anybody knows how to repair that kind of thing I might be able to get back in the game.

I will continue to follow your progress with great interest though, and interject my usual pointless and inane commentary.

Well I for one wouldn't call your commentary pointless or inane Bede.

Oh, pick me, pick me!http://67.18.37.17/2135/53/emo/eager.gif

Cool smilie! Where's you get it?

The following is commentary on Bede's Rules for Trading.I would suggest that it's rarely a good idea to trade with the first AI you meet. Even if you can afford something they have, you have no opportunity to trade it to someone else. Wait until you have more contacts.

We're dying here! Shall we skip again? Is this thread dying? Aghhhhhhhh!

Tribute- 2 hours and 10 minutes does not mean this thread is dying. Seriously.

You are doing just fine. C/B is taking his time and making sure everybodyhas a chance to comment before he commits us to a course.

I would suggest that it's rarely a good idea to trade with the first AI you meet. Even if you can afford something they have, you have no opportunity to trade it to someone else. Wait until you have more contacts.

Excellent advice, if I say so myself. This game presents an interesting diversion from that rule. The only nation we know so far started with Alphabet/Pottery - bad luck for us, as we need Pottery but I hate to give up Writing for it as it risks the Philosophy gambit. And I really like having at least one additional party to any dealings. That said, wait the six turns and push the northern warriors into the fog and maybe we make a new friend. If not, and if we get to Writing before the Native American, I will strongly urge that Writing be traded for Pottery and whatever else he's willing to give up.

Pottery is very cheap relative to Writing, though, so we need to get more than just a pot to boil maize in.

Then consider the alternative, ignore Pottery and the Granaries for now, hang on to Writing and head straight for Philosophy. That means giving up a four turn settler farm at Paris, though, and depending on the whip to populate the hinterlands.

Tribute- 2 hours and 10 minutes does not mean this thread is dying. Seriously.

I was referring to the lack of gameplay, not the lack of comments. But I understand your confusion. :rolleyes:

End of Turnset 02 Stats:
Writing 6 turns; 6 gold -1 gpt (0.9.1)

Cities:

Paris (3) grows in 3, settler in 3
Orleans (2) grows in 2, settler in 3


Military:

settlers 0, 2 in production
workers 3
warriors 6

01 2110 BC

Rename southern most warrior to WarriorYellow and head to Yellow, SW.
Rename northern most warrior to WarriorNosey and head north, looking for borders. I think that eastward is just a coastline.
Wounded warrior on automove to somewhere. Bad manners.
Activate one warrior in Orleans, rename to WarriorRed and head to Red, SE across river.


Iroquois warrior attacks somebody and wins, but does not capture the tile.
2nd purple warrior appears NE on a mountain, heading west.

Beancounters want to count more money.

[I] 02 2070 BC

WarriorNosey heads N onto hill to see more. Sees an oasis and a barb camp that the Iroquois are attacking.
WarriorYellow SW.
WarriorRed reaches Red (hilltop).
All three workers need to new work.
Rename the three: WorkerA, WorkerB and WorkerC.
WorkerA (the northern one) heads towards the sugar north of Orleans, to irrigate (more food).
WorkerB (the eastern one) heads to the plains NE of Yellow to irrigate and afterwards (future plans) to the BG west of Yellow to mine.
WorkerC (the southern ones) stays in place and irrigates for Red.
Automoved warrior now stopped on hilltop next to wines and a cow. Rename to WarriorWilly and let him rest and heal.


Iroquois capture barb camp.
Beancounters complain again.


[I] 03 2030 BC

Writing in 3 turns, 4 gold in the bank.
WarriorNosey NE to mountain (see more land). Purple border to the NE.
WarriorWilly is fully healed, move N, plan to examine the west coast of France.
WarriorYellow S.
WorkerA (in Orleans) N to sugarcane.
WorkerB (in forest) W to plains.
WarriorRed heads N to reexamine this part of the landscape. Will go N two and then back.


Paris settler -> ? asked by Bede but not discussed: settle, worker, warrior, barracks, walls, wealth or Pyramids. Choose walls. They are cheap, no upkeep and will complete the next turnset, so this change can be changed.
Don't want to pay upkeep on barracks, not at negative gpt (which should change with the new cities).

Blast!
Orleans grew last turn and the new citizen got cranky and put the city into unrest (no production).

[I] 04 1990 BC

Increase the happy slider to 20%, still learn writing in two turns. We are at -2gpt, with 3 gold in the bank. Need to adjust sliders again next turn.
WorkerA irrigates.
WorkerB irrigates.
WarriorYellow S.
SettlerForRed, in Paris, east, then north, onto hilltop SW of Red.
WarriorRed N, all looks good.
WarriorWilly N onto marsh.
WarriorNosey sees a hill just outside of Iroquois borders, no other high spots visible north or east, and heads to that hill; moves N.


Orleans settles down and builds a settler.
Orleans settler -> wealth, which means that Paris should be making money also. Barbs not a problem, can build a wall quickly if needed.

[I] 05 1950 BC

We learn Writing next turn.
Happy to zero, science to 80%, 0 gpt, 0 in the bank.
WarriorYellow arrives at Yellow.
SettlerForRed arrives at Red.
WarriorRed S, back to Red.
WarriorWilly N, onto hill.
WarriorNosey N, now near hill, goody hut to the west.
SettlerYellow, in Orleans, SW to Yellow.
With Red now able to use an irrigated grassland, WorkerC heads to the grassland E of Orleans; NW, NW and N
Paris walls -> wealth


Now at 1 gold in the bank and +1 gpt. Should have fiddled with the science slider, but in the end it does not matter since we learn Writing.
Philosophy is 26 turns away.
Fiddle with the smart slider, move to 90%, +0 gpt.
Philosophy is 23 turns away.
We can now build embassies.

[I] 06 1910 BC

WarriorNosey pops the goody hut. We wake a Bulgar warrior.
WarriorWilly N, hilltop to hilltop.
WorkerC starts to mine the grassland.
SettlerYellow W.
WarriorYellow climbs the hill due S of Yellow; all is good, no surprises.
SettlerRed founds Lyons.
Lyons defaults to a warrior build, but WarriorRed is on his way.
Lyons grows in 7, curragh in 8.
Lyons is working the mined Wheat E of Paris.
WarriorRed S to Lyons.
Move the smart slider to 100%.
Two gold in the bank and +2 gpt.


The barb hut we popped had three barb warriors and two of them die attacking the Iroquois.

[I] 07 1870 BC

WarriorNosey N; the hill we had aimed for now occupied by The Purple.
WarriorWilly has run out of hills to climb; the coast looks like it turns eastward; goes NW to keep coast in sight.
WorkerA makes a road.
WorkerB heads W, heading to the BG.
SettlerYellow arrives at Yellow.
WarriorYellow N to Yellow.
WarriorRed looks fierce and fortifies.


Last barb warrior dies.

[I] 08 1830 BC

WarriorNosey sees either a red or orange border to the north. Hills to the NE and NW and 2N. Head for the one 2N to see more of the whoever's land.
The border is orange.
WarriorWilly N.
SettlerYellow founds Rheims.
Rheims grows in 10; worker in 10 (will be our fourth worker).
WorkerB SW to BG.
WarriorYellow fortifies in Rheims.


Meant to talk to Orange before the turn ended. Forgot.

[I] 09 1790 BC

Tap the orange warrior and we meet England.
England 1790 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Dart01/1790BC_EnglandTrimmed.jpg

We have Writing.
They have BW, Pottery, Wheel and CB.
We do not trade.
WarriorNosey N to hill to examine the English countryside.
WarriorWilly N.
WorkerA finishes the road, will now road to Rheims. Shortest path is two forest roads. S into Orleans and S across the river, will begin road here.
WorkerB mines the BG.


Again! I forget that anything over size 2 is bound to riot. Paris grew to size 3 and the excitable Frenchies start protesting in the streets. Hire a clown.

[I] 10 1750 BC

WorkerA begins a forest road.
WorkerC adds a road to the mined grassland.
WarriorWilly comes to the ocean and sees England to the north. Unsure of what to do, heads NE, able later to go north (England) or east (Iroquois).
WarriorNosey N.

[IBT]

End of Turnset 03 stats:

Philosophy 9 turns; 10 gold, +1 gpt.

Cities:

Paris (3) zero growth, wealth in 9999 turns.
Orleans (1) grows in 4, wealth in 1.
Lyons (1) grows in 3, curragh in 4.
Rheims (1) grows in 8, worker in 8.


Military:

workers 3, 1 in production
warriors 6

Total units: 9 Allowed units: 16

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/DArt01_1750_BC.SAV).

Done
We met the Iroquois and the English.
We learned Writing and are 9 turns away from Philosophy.
We added two new cities, Lyons and Rheims.
Lyons is building a curragh to explore the coasts.

Greater France 1750 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Dart01/1750BC_GreaterFranceTrimmed.jpg

To Do, Notes and Plans
Both Orleans and Paris have rioted because they grew to size 3 and we only get two content citizens at Emperor. Orleans rioted some time ago; Paris is uppity right now.
After the turnset I realized that setting Paris and Orleans to wealth was not wise. It gave us some gold, which I thought we needed at the time, but Paris now needs a warrior to keep the peasants happy. Paris needs to be changed from wealth to warrior.
Orleans is growing slower than Paris, but it needs a warrior also to prevent riots. It, too, should be changed to warrior.

Orange Land and Purple Land 1750 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Dart01/1750BC_OrangeAndPurpleTrimmed.jpg

Exploring Options
WarriorNosey can either head due north (shows more terrain) or NW (sees more England). Nosey’s actions depend on what we do with WarriorWilly. He is positioned to do one of two things: head east to sniff out the Iroquois borders or head northwest to explore the backside of England. If Willy heads east, then Nosey should head NW towards England. If Willy explores England, then Nosey heads north.

Worker Moves
Bede mentioned about improving a tile too early, which implies that the ideal time to improve a tile is just before it can be used. These two tiles may be too early:
1) The grassland for Lyons. Thought that would be worked by the first citizen, but the mined Wheat was worked instead.
2) If Rheims continues to build our fourth worker, then mining the BG was done too soon.
Once WorkerC finishes its current roadwork was going to have him help WorkerA road to Rheims. Together they could make a forest road in 2 turns.

(..)
Tap the orange warrior and we meet England.
England 1790 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Dart01/1790BC_EnglandTrimmed.jpg

We have Writing.
They have BW, Pottery, Wheel and CB.
We do not trade.. Why not ??

There appears to be an opportunity for a multiple tech deal for writing. The waters definitely should be tested. Start with Hiawatha and see what he will offer, then move on to Liz.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Dart01/2110BC_IroquoisTrimmed.jpg



http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Dart01/1790BC_EnglandTrimmed.jpg

Riots are bad and a sign of inattention. They should never happen.

What ever we do do not complete the walls in Paris. That is the equivalent of two MP's and now that unit support is a little higher it is not like we can't afford them. Walls are only useful in Always War games.

And wealth before economics and multiplier buildings like banks and stock exchanges is always bad. You will get a greater return having a citizen work a roaded riverside and we have plenty of those. If you need to pacify the citizens with specialists collect taxes, don't tell jokes.

Better to put a mine on sugar. A field needs three food in its native state to benefit for irigation in Despotism.

Lyons is working a dinghy, good!

Twere I both Orleans and Rheims would be training warriors to size two, then settlers. The warriors could keep the towns happy while they grow to three or they could go on ahead to their new homes for barb watch and use the entertainment budget to keep every body happy.

On a happier note, I will back to C3C on Tuesday thanks to a good friend so I can stop being a crabby commentator and become a player

"Walls are only useful in Always War games."

And in beachhead towns, but rarely elsewhere.

I would consider the techs that the Iroquios and the English already have, and that they appear to have done a pretty thourough -- though not exhaustive -- job of trading with each other. It might be worthwhile to give it just a turn or two more to see if either of them researches something interesting.

Agree completely with Bede and vmxa's assessment of walls.

If you wait to trade, test the waters at least. The risk in waitin is that will learn how to write and trade it to the other. By checking the bid you can ge a guess at whether or not they are in fact reserching it. If the bid is low make the best deal now. And Pottery is very much of interest to us. It was bad luck that we drew Commercial nations as neighbors.

Both Orleans and Paris have rioted because they grew to size 3 and we only get two content citizens at Emperor.
Two? isn't it just one? :confused:
@Techs:

According to alexman's article on tech cost, (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45559) You could probably get CB, Wheel, and Pottery for Writing and some gpt and/or gold. Then, you could sell Writing to the other person for gpt and/or gold. I might be wrong about this though.

Much depends, as Bede astutely pointed out, on whether or not Hiawatha and Liz are already researching Writing. If so, it will not be worth so much to them. (You'll find your own purchase costs for a tech go down if you've already done some research on it.) And if they've already almost finished researching it, it's good to make the trade ASAP. On the other hand, if one or the other of them is busy with something else (and the AI does tend to research all of the first tier techs before moving on to the second -- often, but not always), then it might pay to wait for that tech to emerge and then trade for that.

Yes at Emp or higher you only get one citizen born content. It does not really matter, if you just checked at the end of the turn for happy faces or use a tool.

The only time you should get caught is when WW triggers it or you lost a lux during the IBT. There is a few others times, but they are quite unusal. Really during the AA, it just forgetfulness or laziness or a lack of understanding.

That is why they have training games.

I almost got my throat hoarse shouting quietly at the screen, "NO! NO! NO!" ;)

But of course, somebody, (Bede) had to name everything that went wrong. :rolleyes:

We need practice on Luxury/Science Slider, Military Police, Build Orders, Worker/Terrain, Trading, and Micromanagement.

Otherwise, we got twice as big. Yet we don't seem to be expanding any further.... What the heck are they wealthing for? Just lower science, raise lux tax, and switch to warriors/settlers/workers! The curragh is fine, however. Additionally, don't clown when you can scientist.

BTW, Paris needs the irrigated wheat AND mined wheat, so Lyons should just take off, and make do with the normal mined grassland.

And once again, there was a damaged moving warrior? :crazyeye: My bad....

So let's see who's next!:
Roster:
D'Artagnan59
Tribute
CommandoBob-Just Played
Conquerdude-Skipped before and was Moved
Bucephalus-On Deck or Up now
Chuchui Husky
AnsarTheKing
Bahzell

So either Conquerdude or Bucephalus should play. I guess whoever takes it first could get it. But only after Bede says that we should continue.

So how about a turn plan from conqueror dude and then move on?

I've think I've made pretty clear what I think the next steps should be, but let's hear from the rest of the troupe.

Much depends, as Bede astutely pointed out, on whether or not Hiawatha and Liz are already researching Writing. If so, it will not be worth so much to them. (You'll find your own purchase costs for a tech go down if you've already done some research on it.) And if they've already almost finished researching it, it's good to make the trade ASAP. On the other hand, if one or the other of them is busy with something else (and the AI does tend to research all of the first tier techs before moving on to the second -- often, but not always), then it might pay to wait for that tech to emerge and then trade for that.
My point is, you can probably get CB, Wheel, and Pottery out of the deal, and maybe some gpt. At least CB and Pottery, as they are the cheapest techs in the game.

Yes at Emp or higher you only get one citizen born content. It does not really matter, if you just checked at the end of the turn for happy faces or use a tool.

The only time you should get caught is when WW triggers it or you lost a lux during the IBT. There is a few others times, but they are quite unusal. Really during the AA, it just forgetfulness or laziness or a lack of understanding.
With the very few exceptions mentioned by vmxa, you should NEVER have a town riot. Here are links to two tools which will automatically alert you the turn BEFORE a town riots...giving you an opportunity to make needed changes to specialists or the lux slider.

Dianthus' CrpSuite - use his MapStat utility. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52902

Ainwood's CivAssist II - more info, but also more complicated to use I think. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118540

I have and use both utilities for different purposes including new trading opportunities, but the happiness alerts are invaluable and save you hours of checking each city for happy faces each turn.

My point is, you can probably get CB, Wheel, and Pottery out of the deal, and maybe some gpt. At least CB and Pottery, as they are the cheapest techs in the game.

Refer again to Bede's 3 Questions Before You Buy (or Trade). Just because you can get a tech doesn't always mean that you should. Are CB and/or Pottery useful to you right now?

Pottery is of course, Bronze Working is too, if we plan on getting Iron Working. The Wheel is if we plan on getting horses. (Or resource trading either if possible to catch up/stay ahead.) Warrior Code is possible for additional leverage versus England.

But who knows? I think conquerdude will.

Someday there will be an award CivFanatics Darwin Award for the most boneheaded errors in a turnset. Just not today, I hope.

I normally play with MapStat, but did not for these turns. Only two cities and about ten units, should be easy to keep track of things, right? At least, so I thought. Bad decision.

I took one statement posted earlier and managed to make it say something it clearly did not say. That little piece of creativity led directly to the poor build orders for Paris and Orleans.

The number of content citizens at Emperor, well, here I forgot that the cities were content at size 2 because each had a warrior doing crowd control. At size 2 they were happy and at size 3 they were not. Again, my bad.

I should have stopped my turns when we met England. I had actually considered posting the gamea after 5 turns, because of some RL events, but thought I had time to play the other 5 turns. Instead of playing the turns, I focused on finishing the turns, which is not at all the same thing.

Which means the next player will look exceedingly good!

[delurk]With the very few exceptions mentioned by vmxa, you should NEVER have a town riot. Here are links to two tools which will automatically alert you the turn BEFORE a town riots...giving you an opportunity to make needed changes to specialists or the lux slider.

Dianthus' CrpSuite - use his MapStat utility. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52902

Ainwood's CivAssist II - more info, but also more complicated to use I think. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118540

Whe I looked at CivAssistII I saw that it is necessary to download something called the '.NET framework'. I'm reluctant to download and install things I'm not familiar with; what is it?

Whe I looked at CivAssistII I saw that it is necessary to download something called the '.NET framework'. I'm reluctant to download and install things I'm not familiar with; what is it?
Um, I'm not sure WHAT it is, but it comes directly from the Microsoft site. I DL'd it when I installed CivAssistII many months ago and haven't noticed any particular effect. A whole lot of the regular players here use CAII, nobody has mentioned having problems that I've heard and I think word would have gotten around.

You might read the last page or two from the CAII thread to see if anyone has mentioned it or check in the Technical Support forum to ask if you want to be doubly sure, but I trust the experience of many fellow users. :) Another alternative would be to PM Ainwood, who wrote CAII, and ask him to explain what .NET framework does since he is also a mod here.

I use CivAssist II because I have used CivAssist before ever touching MapStat. And I don't see any problems with CAII. So is that all?

Conquerdude or Bucephalus can either stall more or can go now. :)

I use CivAssist II because I have used CivAssist before ever touching MapStat. And I don't see any problems with CAII. So is that all?

Conquerdude or Bucephalus can either stall more or can go now. :)

I can go if required, but in my time zone it's nearly bedtime so it won't be played until tomorrow.

Refer again to Bede's 3 Questions Before You Buy (or Trade). Just because you can get a tech doesn't always mean that you should. Are CB and/or Pottery useful to you right now?
Might be. Temples, Granaries, and Horses might come in handy. However, if temples you do not want, don't get CB. It can wait, and all that's further down that line is Wonders and Monarchy, which you won't be getting/using. Pottery will definately be useful, and Wheel will be useful if you have Horses.

Pottery is of course, Bronze Working is too, if we plan on getting Iron Working. The Wheel is if we plan on getting horses. (Or resource trading either if possible to catch up/stay ahead.) Warrior Code is possible for additional leverage versus England.

But who knows? I think conquerdude will.
BW and WC are nice, but the AI values them way more than it values writing. In fact, they're the two most expensive AA techs. Pull out some gpt, and the AI might trade them.

@Bucephalus:
I'm reluctant to download NET.framework too unless I know what it is. And I still can't figure out how CRpSuite works... :(

BW and WC are nice, but the AI values them way more than it values writing. In fact, they're the two most expensive AA techs. Pull out some gpt, and the AI might trade them.

Wrong!

Writing has a beaker cost of >200. Warrior Code and Bronze Working together don't add up to a beaker cost of 160. You should in fact be able to get both for the value of Writing even with the Emperor trade premiums.

And at this stage of the game paying gpt for anything other than luxuries is folly.

It is true that the AI will prioritize Warrior Code and Bronze Working as they allow troop training but that does not make them more costly.

If I had C3C running I could provide a demonstration.

@choxorn, CRPSuite is at least three different .exe files. The one you want to use is called CRpMapStat. The others are less useful for game purposes but very nice for post game analysis.

.Net is Microsoft's implementation of C++ that allows Windoz machines to run C++ programs without translation into Visual Basic. It does not, as far as I know, introduce any security holes or other bad stuff.

BW and WC are nice, but the AI values them way more than it values writing. In fact, they're the two most expensive AA techs. Pull out some gpt, and the AI might trade them.

Actually, this is not true at all. BW is the cheapest AA tech, next to pottery. Writing guarantess you BW + WC + something else, definetily.:) I like the idea of trading Writing, but we gotta do it wisely, and see what the best offers are, right now, I say I like the wheel because knowing resources is always nice.:p We could build temples and after expansion sell them...:religion: , but that is up to the team, these are just my suggestions...

Also, is there any way we can get BW besides by Writing? I would like to know when our neighbors get Iron Working, so we can have a share on it too.:devil:

EDIT: x-post with TGOM.:rockon: :D

We could build temples and after expansion sell them...:religion: , but that is up to the team, these are just my suggestions...

Also, is there any way we can get BW besides by Writing? I would like to know when our neighbors get Iron Working, so we can have a share on it too.:devil:

EDIT: x-post with TGOM.:rockon: :D

Sorry to jump on your "good catch", Ansar. But don't go getting froggy on me here. If you look at the shield cost one temple for a non-religious nation is 2.5 settlers. Why not use a knight's move settlement pattern and get three towns for the same cost working that ground much earlier than if one town had to grow into it?

The early to mid game is not about claiming the most ground, it is about getting the best yields from the ground you control. That is where the human players get the upper hand over the AI production discounts.

The early to mid game is not about claiming the most ground, it is about getting the best yields from the ground you control.
That says a mouthful! (and a lightbulb goes off inside the mind of CommandoBob).

So how do 'best yields', 'micro-managing cities' and 'city governors' interrelate? I've picked up that there are times the city govenors do a good job (relating to settler pumps, mostly) but recall other posts where the city governor is derided. And related to this, how should the city governors be 'set'?

The early to mid game is not about claiming the most ground, it is about getting the best yields from the ground you control. That is where the human players get the upper hand over the AI production discounts.

And that is why im in this SG.:goodjob: Im too used to the easiness of building temples and such kid stuff.:p

Isnt CxxxC best for land grabbing since borders connect?:)

City governors:

Rule #1 City governors should never be active.
Rule #2 The city governor preference needs to be set to production so that when growth occurs the new citizen is working the highest shield field available.

Rule #2 has to do with the game mechanics of production, growth and commerce. I do not have all the details but I think the values of growth/production/commerce are caclulated in that order during the interturn processing. So when you are running a settler farm you want the growth citizen to be assigned to the highest shield field but you frequently go into the city screen on your turn and move him to a high food field. You will get the shield added to the bin on the interturn, however.

Mocromanagement is a huge topic and just one aspect of it will fill whole pages if explored in detail. The guiding principle is simply stated, however:

All citizens must work the most powerful fields available to them

What that requires in practice is that every town that has experienced growth on the interturn must be examined and citizens reassigned as needed.

The tricky part is that the definition of "most powerful" changes as the game progresses. And the impact of corruption and waste changes the relationships of working citizens and specialists.

Much more will be said about this later.

As a general rule, and like all general rules subject to exceptions, an effective settlement pattern is to count three fields in any direction from the city center, then one at a right angle from the third. Offers minimal overlap and a single move on roads with no river crossing for one move defenders. In the first core of cities I am tempted sometimes to go further, but then I also go much tighter in the farther out towns.

In general you need no more than twelve workable fields in core and first and second ring towns, no more than six to nine in the towns further out.

And so another day. Still no response from Conquerdude, shall I take this?

If he does not respond this afternoon, I think you should. When did he post a "got it"?

@All: okay, so the way AI's value tech and tech cost are different. Can someone tell me where the article on tech cost is?
Rule #1 City governors should never be active.
Not always true. zerksees would argue against this if he were lurking here, but he's not. My point is, it's possible to win with the city governor on- just ask zerksees. Don't argue with me over this. If you want to start an arguement, argue with zerksees, not me.

It is possible to win the game doing any number of things, but it is not to say they are the best things to be doing.

Tech cost are readily availble by looking at the editor or using any of a number of tools. Techcalc if that is all you want is a quick answer to how much or CAII.

All citizens must work the most powerful fields available to them



If I might add one small thing to Bede's counsel, it would be that they should do so in a way that minimizes waste. Here's where you get into the deep world of bean-counting and calculation, but it does make a difference.

My point is, it's possible to win with the city governor on- just ask zerksees. Don't argue with me over this. If you want to start an arguement, argue with zerksees, not me.

It is possible to win building no roads or mines or irrigation, but I wouldn't recommend it, 'cause I've done it (see Gang of Four thread). And IIRC I was on a team that conquered the world at Emperor with governors on and another team that beat Demi-god with automated workers. Both games were fun but certainly failed to convince me that either are the way to go.

And zerksee's use of governors comes late in the game when there are lots of cities to manage and all you want to do is whup the remaining opponents.

Finally, there is no argument. Player management of cities and workers will beat automated management every time. In fact that is only aspect of play that allows the player to overcome the AI discounts and premiums at Emperor and above.

@the primate, now we start to get into the nuances of tile swapping, shield and food overruns and all that. Just let me say this about that: :vomit:. I hate it, it's a nuisance, but needs to be done. If anyone is interested in examining the topic in greater detail I will offer a seminar when my turn comes around.

@Alexander's Pony - take it away the game is yours.

@Alexander's Pony - take it away the game is yours.

OK, I have it.

Sorry to jump on your "good catch", Ansar. But don't go getting froggy on me here. If you look at the shield cost one temple for a non-religious nation is 2.5 settlers.

Hmm, I always thought that temples were 60 shields and settlers were 30 shields. Temple for non-religious would equal 2 settlers.

And Bucephalus is really Alexander the Great's horse?

Hmm, I always thought that temples were 60 shields and settlers were 30 shields. Temple for non-religious would equal 2 settlers.

And Bucephalus is really Alexander the Great's horse?

You are right.

Yup, according to Plutarch, my illustrious predecessor

I don't know about the 2 settlers as you also have to use pop, but it sure is worth two 30 shields attackers and the maint on one of them.

I always felt the issue is not so much making the temple as it was the way most will make them as soon as they get CB. I am not so fussy, if they make one at the point that they can do it quickly and are no longer expanding. If they keep it to a couple of core cities.

Cranking one out ASAP, is the killer.

OK, I really think I need to make some changes here; things are a bit messy.

Paris: In flames, and building wealth. I sack the clown, put him to work in the wheat fields. The town will now grow in 5. Adjust the luxury slider to 10%.
If I can do a deal for Pottery I believe we can have a granary in 10, just as it grows to size 5. It goes (I think) like this: 5 turns x 4 shields = 20
5 turns x 6 shieds = 30
The remaining 10 shields would come from chopping the forest NW of Paris, using the badly tasked worker busily roading the forest next door.

Lyons: I move the citizen from the wheat that rightfully belongs to Paris. By placing him on the BG by the river I gain 1 gold and 1 shield. Curragh now due in 3.

Orleons: Military Advisor tells me that there are barbs nearby. Switch from building wealth to building warrior, due in 5. I leave the citizen working the sugar because a move to a 2-shield tile just gets a red shield, and the sugar gives 2 gold. But why is it irrigated? Surely it should be mined?

Rheim is building a worker. I leave it to do so.

Time to say hello to the neighbours. The guy with the bad hair has WC, Pottery, CB, BW, and Wheel.
For Writing he will give:BW, Pottery, CB and 60 gold. He will only give WC with one other tech. He'll give the Wheel with Pottery and CB. No gold.
Liz has parity less WC. She will give BW, Pottery, CB and the Wheel for Writing + 10 gold.

OK, I hope I'm doing this right. I'm going to deal with Geronimo. Here's my reasoning: Because Liz wants it more, I think that Geronimo has his medicine men researching Writing; if I sell to Liz, it's value will drop further still, far enough perhaps for it not to be tradeable anymore for WC or the Wheel.

However, if I sell to Geronimo we should at worst still pick up Wheel from Liz, and at best she may have a second tier tech (IW?) to trade.

I trade Writing for BW, Pottery, CB + 60 gold with Geronimo. He becomes polite. We smoke a pipe of something, and I depart.
Liz has IW. Liz will trade IW to me for Writing. I make the trade and............
we don't have Iron. Liz has Iron. Geronimo has Iron nearby. We do not.

I think a lot has happened here. Before I actually move anything I'll give you all a chance to tell me what an ass I've been, then at least the only damage that can't be undone is the trades. If I may make one last suggestion? I think we should stick with Phil. and hope for free MM. We need access to Iron, and have at least 2 landmasses that are attached by coastal tiles, that appear unsettled at present. Might there be Iron?

Oh, and can someone tell me how to upload my screenshots so that they come up in the thread full sized, not as a thumbnail?

Edit: Forgot to say, Geronimo is up Mysticism.

Time to say hello to the neighbours. The guy with the bad hair has WC, Pottery, CB, BW, and Wheel.
For Writing he will give:BW, Pottery, CB and 60 gold. He will only give WC with one other tech. He'll give the Wheel with Pottery and CB. No gold.
Liz has parity less WC. She will give BW, Pottery, CB and the Wheel for Writing + 10 gold.

OK, I hope I'm doing this right. I'm going to deal with Geronimo. Here's my reasoning: Because Liz wants it more, I think that Geronimo has his medicine men researching Writing; if I sell to Liz, it's value will drop further still, far enough perhaps for it not to be tradeable anymore for WC or the Wheel.

Sound reasoning all the way around. And in the end you got Iron Working. Not your fault that there is no taconite in our corner of the world.

And your thinking on proceeding to Philosophy in hopes of snagging Map Making is also a good one. Just make sure the others haven't had the same idea of going for maps before you choose it. Because then you will want to do something else.

ANd if the Philosophjy gambit fails, then what?

And I certainly can't complain about your city management. Anytime you can get one more gold piece and better productivity take it.

Without a town equipping a settler to claim the silk I fear that Paris will not get to size 5 without a change in the luxury budget. What happens if the town building a worker switches to a warrior till it gets some growth and then starts a settler. That ought to get you a settler for the silk before Paris grows
Something to think about.

On the mechanical thing. You can use the Upload File button at the bottom of the page. And just follow the instructions for copying the link and pasting it between IMG tags. Or you can use a service like Photobucket. I like Photobucket myself.

And I would say "Play on" you're doing great.

@the primate, now we start to get into the nuances of tile swapping, shield and food overruns and all that. Just let me say this about that: :vomit:. I hate it, it's a nuisance, but needs to be done. If anyone is interested in examining the topic in greater detail I will offer a seminar when my turn comes around.
I, for one, would be greatly interested. I watch my capitol and first few core cities very closely in the early turns (especially a settler farm), then my specialist towns in the later game. I'm weak in the middle period and I'm sure I miss many opportunities. You're the known expert in empire management, and there's always more for me to learn about it. :)

The real experts would be goz and g-man for this stage. I'm more of a one trick pony in the later part of the game when there are specialists to fiddle with.

@All concerning zerksees and governor: Okay, so it is possible to win like that. That's not the point. My point is, zerk seems to have the governor on all the time- just check out the threads in his sig. Can we just forget about this?

Let's see. After taking, the laborer from Lyons was it?, did you let someone from Paris go back to it?

And if the Philosophy gambit fails, hmm, I guess we could always gear up for a nice war. Or min sci our way into buying techs....

If the Philosophy gambit succeeds, but people have MM, then we need to get CoL for the Republic. The Republic can be either maxed or min sci'd. If we can get it before others and don't have things like Poly, Construction, HBr, Currency, MM, and Literature, we can get those. Else, we min sci.

Or if the Philosophy succeeds, and we have a decent prebuild, then literature is good and we can shut down research for the time being (until Education, a great money making opportunity (such as Printing Press, if possible, sold to the AI for "super" gpt), or to go down the bottom route of the tech tree, to Military Tradition.)

If the Philosophy gambit succeeds, but people have MM, then we need to get CoL for the Republic. The Republic can be either maxed or min sci'd. If we can get it before others and don't have things like Poly, Construction, HBr, Currency, MM, and Literature, we can get those. Else, we min sci.


Or if the Philosophy succeeds, and we have a decent prebuild, then literature is good and we can shut down research for the time being (until Education, a great money making opportunity (such as Printing Press, if possible, sold to the AI for "super" gpt), or to go down the bottom route of the tech tree, to Military Tradition.)

All is well until you get to the comment about "prebuild" and "Education" and "shutting down research". The last thing we need is The Great Library and minimum science. Little "l" libraries in every town that can do better than 10gpt net after corruption, yes. Great Library is the best way I know to kill the tech pace and we want the very fastest we can get. The best way to get that is to self-research at maximum affordable and trade the AI up to us, or zero science (which means no libraries at all) and feed cash into the global economy every opportunity we get. My preference is the maximum science route with libraries and universities in the core as the minimum science route just takes way too long without strong trading partners (though Hiawatha and Liz certainly qualify in that regard).

Just to make the biases clear I don't even think about wonders until Newton's and Copernicus at the end of the Middle Ages. And that coastal town on the gold hill is a great palce for those two.

Great Library is the best way I know to kill the tech pace and we want the very fastest we can get.
Why do we want the fastest? Is that a general rule of thumb or specific to our Victory Conditions? I don't disagree, but would like to know what your reasoning is for that statement.

If you are looking for an early space launch then getting the AI to help with the research up to the Modern Era is the way to go. If you are looking for a military win then you want to hustle to your Unique Unit then kill the tech pace.

I forgot about that. :(

I was just thinking about winning due to diplomatic again....

:devil:

Of course, there are other ways to obtain techs without either researching or paying for them.

Agree 100% with Bede's assessment of the true value of Literature. Libraries are the real benefit of that tech. I find it very hard to justify building the GLib. It's main appeal is in capturing it in a high-level game where the AI is significantly ahead in techs. That single move has been a game-clincher in many a tough situation.

Libraries in towns with real production. Scientists in those that don't. Theft and extortion if you don't want your hard-earned gold to end up in someone else's bank account.

IMO, I have played with No research + Great Library, it creates a mess. Money wont help you much, researching is best, but TGOM, wont we be running deficit if we run really high science?:gold:

The Great Library is a crutch.

quoted for emphasis.:D :rockon:

Also, are we going to do some kind of war in the near future?:devil:

OK, I understand a bit better now on research.

But as the Inquistive Idiot, well....
Little "l" libraries in every town that can do better than 10gpt net after corruption, yes.
Why 10 gpt? I like the number, it is nice and round, but, well, is this a rule of thumb or rule of exactness? I would not to misapply what you have said.

It is a rule of thumb, if you want exactness you start at 9 net gpt

Libraries are buildings that multiply the budget amount put into science, but cost 1gpt in maintenance. The math goes roughly like this @100% science:

Total uncorrupted commerce=9 @100% science=9beakers per turn + library (1.5*(9-1gpt for library cost)=12beakers for a net 33% increase in beaker output. And if you hire a scientist instead you get only 2 beakers net as you will most likely be taking the citizen from a roaded field. Now, if corruption is 33% in the town you do better hiring the scientist if you can afford the loss of growth.

That's how the math works but just to keep it simple I set 10 net gpt as the starting point.

And of course we will be running a deficit, that's what Bedeian Economics is all about. Trust me, it works. And once we get enough towns down we can make science and tax farms, too.

Pre flight check on post 198
OK, deep breath and press 'Enter':

1) WorkerA moves to Parisian forest. Order restored in Paris. Move citizen from wheat to BG to prevent Paris from growing too quickly for the granary to keep pace. Now the granary will complete in 8 turns (if my maths is correct), and we'll reach size 5 one turn later. Philosophy in 8 turns.

2) WorkerC finishes mine at Orleons. Moves to irrigated sugar and begins mine.
WorkerA begins to chop forest for the granary project. Philosophy in 7 turns.

3) Lyons completes Curragh (hereafter known as Curragh1); I commission another, due in 5. Move Curragh1 2 tiles East; we have what seems like a smallish, heavily forested island NE of Lyons. WorkerB finishes mine at Rheims, starts to road. Curragh1 more of the island; looks to be about 8-9 tiles, but there is a bigger landmass to the East. Liz now has WC. Neither she nor Geronimo will sell it (or the Wheel) for our 74 gold. We have a new citizen in Orleons which I move to the mined tile NE of the city. The one extra gold shaves-off two turns of research - we now get Philosophy in 4 turns.

4)WorkerA finishes chop. Paris grows to size 4. Growth in 5, granary in 4. I adjust the luxury slider to 30%, the good news being we still get Philosophy in 3 turns. Orleon completes warrior. I commission a barracks. WorkerA moves towards Orleon to begin a road to the silks. Curragh1 exposes some lush grassland on the new landmass. Geronimo has Iron. But neither he nor Liz know anything new. New warrior moves toward silks on Barb patrol.

5) Liz is building Colossus. WorkerC finishes mine and is moved SW for a forest chop towards barracks. Warrior moves NW of silks, finds a fortified barb. Philosophy in 2.

6) Curragh2 is completed in Lyons, and heads off SE. Curragh1 rounds a headland and exposes more lush green & 2 wheat. Set Lyons to build barracks. WorkerA begins road towards silks. WorkerC begins chop. Warrior kills barb. Philosophy in 1.

7) We learn Philosophy; we get MM as a free tech. I agonize over which tech to research next. From what I read of Bede's musings it seems the choice is between CoL & Lit. I decide CoL, we have no city suitable for a prebuild towards GL and our towns are too small yet to benefit from libraries. WorkerB completes road at Rhiems, moves S for a forest chop towards barracks. Curragh1 exposes more wheat.

8) Paris completes granary. 1 turn to size 5; Wealth for one turn then endless settlers - we have our factory. Curragh2 moves along a new coast with a barb galley in pursuit.

9) Paris grows to size 5; the downside is that I have to up the lux slider to 40%. However the silk will be roaded in time for the next player to put our settler down anywhere next to it and get immediate benefit; dotmaps are in order, I guess. WorkerC completes forest chop nr Orleons; begins road. Barracks now in 9.

10) Barb galley sinks Curragh2. Barb warrior shows up S of Paris. Move unnamed warrior in that direction.

Summary: We now know BW, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, CB, IW, Writing, Philosophy, and MM. Both other civs will trade WC and Wheel + 50 gold for Philosophy; I'll leave that decision to better players.

Paris is a settler factory. We will soon have silks on line.

We have exposed what seems to be a large unpopulated landmass to the SW connected by coastal tiles. No sign of any resources there yet.

We are weak militarily, even compared to the barbs. I've set barracks to be built ASAP with forest chops. We will soon be spewing out settlers, and they will need the escorts. We are lucky Liz & Geronimo are so far away, but I suspect they might make demands now we have a tech lead.

And the save?

and the save.........

@Bede: Just a quick note to let you know this one's still on my subscription list. You know my strengths (and weaknesses). If there's anything I can do to help in here, shoot me a :bump: in a PM and I'll tune in.

I caught something a page back about tile swapping and micromanaging... Whomp hosted a game with Chuckchi Husky...and I posted some MM tips in that one. If anyone wants a link I can probably dig one out.

the granary will complete in 8 turns (if my maths is correct), and we'll reach size 5 one turn later.

Excellent.

Orleon completes warrior. I commission a barracks.

Really, now. Barbs must really be a problem

Set Lyons to build barracks

Again? Paris must really need some escorts.

We learn Philosophy; we get MM as a free tech.

We must really be ahead in tech if you got MM.... But with the unsettled landmass so close to us, this is a good choice.

1 turn to size 5; Wealth for one turn then endless settlers

I'm not sure, but did you check that Paris would not complete a settler with growth?

dotmaps are in order, I guess.

Hear, hear!


Good job! I see we have plenty of expansion room. We only need some harbors to upgrade the curraghs, unless more exploration is needed, more settlers, some galleys, and some defenses. Infrastructure can come later! (Barracks and granaries don't count in my opinion.)

Can I leave this? I have too much to do and no time to do it. :(

Good job all the way around, Bucephalus.

Comments and quibbles:

Most efficient settler farm set up is between pop4-pop6. It is going to take a cycle or two to get it there. Between pop5-pop7 needs a temple to keep a lid on the lux spending; at 4-6, two MP's (get a second one down there ASAP) and the silk will do nicely, especially if you keep citizens working the high commerce tiles. To get it set up right you need to end a cycle with no food in the upper box which will happen the second settler out, I think

Here is the configuration at the start of the cycle:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/T0.jpg

And this is what it looks like at T2 of the cycle

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/D%20art%20TG/T2.jpg

Just make sure that you have +5 food at all times and the four turn cycle works. Ignore the shield box which says that it will take 3 turns to complete the settler. It does not account for the eighth shield on growth which is "invisible" during the interturn processing cycle but which happens. In fact the way I have it set up loses 1gpt and wastes four shields so the perfectionists among you can have fun looking for them.

Barracks are emphatically not needed to fight barbarians and are a drain on the treasury which is not needed right now. Warriors for local defense and archers for barb hunting are all you need; they can earn their own spurs. I would rather the shields for the barracks go into additional settlers or a harbor at Lyons or a galley as the harbor really isn't needed yet.

And it is probably time to get on the stick and do some more tech trading. If nothing else the cash will give us a cushion against the barbarians when they come, which they will.

7) We learn Philosophy; we get MM as a free tech. I agonize over which tech to research next. From what I read of Bede's musings it seems the choice is between CoL & Lit. I decide CoL, we have no city suitable for a prebuild towards GL and our towns are too small yet to benefit from libraries.
I'm new to C3C, and have only heard about the Philosophy bonus and Republic slingshot. My understanding is that any 'next' tech is a freebie. If so, why get Map Making and then research Code of Law? Wasn't CoL a freebie?

Map Making is worth more. Code of Laws is a good choice too though. However, MM allows us to sail and settle the lands east and north faster than before. Code of Laws would do nothing really. And switching to the Republic so soon might not be so beneficial since we haven't connected many luxuries, have a high unit to settlement ratio (and no cities yet), and still need to expand!

Map Making is worth more. Code of Laws is a good choice too though. However, MM allows us to sail and settle the lands east and north faster than before. Code of Laws would do nothing really. And switching to the Republic so soon might not be so beneficial since we haven't connected many luxuries, have a high unit to settlement ratio (and no cities yet), and still need to expand!
Ok, that makes sense.

Roster:
D'Artagnan59
Tribute
Conquerdude Skipped/Ghosting?
CommandoBob
Bucephalus Just Played
Chuchui Husky UP!
AnsarTheKing On Deck
Bahzell

I don't think I'll be able to play.

I guess I'll take it for a spin.:scan:

Bede one problem with T2 is that you have 1 happy face and 2 unhappy with two MP's.

Bede one problem with T2 is that you have 1 happy face and 2 unhappy with two MP's.

Increase lux by 10%, that will solve it.:p

@Bede: You are right (of course) about the barracks. I don't habitually play with barbs on, and I think I'm probably over-estimating the threat that they pose. Also, Rheims & Orleons are not going to grow much until we chop some of the forest, and I didn't want to waste the shields. However, as you point out, at this stage they don't merit the maintainance.

@all: You'll probably need a settler factory to keep up with happiness problems.

@all: You'll probably need a settler factory to keep up with happiness problems.

That's why we've got Paris. :)

That was my point :)

Umm...Turns out you'll need to skip me too. I have been swamped with homework, so if the next person could pick it up...?:blush:

good catch you guys. i took the shot beofre adjusting the happy budget. And there is an alternative to raising the budget: work another 2gpt tile, i think.

What I was trying to highlight was the +5fpt and what appeared to be a shortfall in shields.

Revised Roster:

D'Artagnan59 On Deck
Tribute
Conquerdude Skipped/Ghosting?
CommandoBob
Bucephalus Just Played
Chuchui Husky Skipped
AnsarTheKing Skipped
Bahzell UP!
Bede Skipped/Reinstall C3C

Just so's you know C3C is back omn the machine where it belongs so I can playh whenever it fits.

Well then, this is the

Revised Revised Roster:
1. D'Artagnan59 On Deck
2. Tribute
3. Conquerdude Skipped/Ghosting?
4. CommandoBob
5. Bucephalus Just Played
6. Chuchui Husky Skipped
7. AnsarTheKing Skipped
8. Bahzell UP!
9. Bede On deck

Got it, will play tomorrow after I get home from work. Will check to see if there is any more advice to follow during my turnset before I play. 20 turns right?

It is 10 turns now.

:clap: Paris is a 6879 Settler factory !!
A forest would have been better still, but this will do.

Got it, will play tomorrow after I get home from work. Will check to see if there is any more advice to follow during my turnset before I play. 20 turns right?

I think getting a settler down near those silks is top priority. And there is a barb camp S of Paris that may be troublesome.

If you're feeling imaginative, there are a couple of warriors (and a worker - I think) that I failed to rename.

It's still 20.

Why is so important to creatively rename units?

I've completed my turn set. will post log and pics tomorrow as I'm to tired to do it right now.

Why is so important to creatively rename units?
Well, for one thing it is fun. And practical, also.

In Nero04, we had a bunch of slaves to clear about 30 or so tiles of jungle. The stack was 24 slaves. Twentyfour slaves could clear a pre-roaded jungle tile in 2 turns. Twenty three would take 3 turns, and anything between 24 and 48 would still take 2 turns. I felt they needed to be renamed to something and have a number suffix, 01 to 24. Since they would be spending their time in the jungles, I named them Tarzan01 to Tarzan24 and referred to them as the Tarzans.

Normally units are renamed because that unit will have some special purpose, like 'SettlerToRedDot' or 'LondonToParisFerry' for a boat.

Military units I tend to just take the name and add a counter on the end; 'Sword05', 'Pike16', 'Catapult03', etc. This helps me to know which unit is beiing used in a stack of similar units. Normally, as far as I have seen, ordinary military units are not renamed anything special unless they produce a leader.

Boats get renamed to something that explains their purpose: 'Spanish Blockade 3', for instance.

Workers probably get renamed the most, especially early in the game. In a training SG like this, it is good idea to rename the workers, if no other units, just to keep straight which worker is being talked about when planning worker moves.

D'Artagnan 1475 BC to 1000 BC turnlog.

1475 BC (0)

Change Orleans Barracks to Settler
Change Lyons Barracks to Settler
Enter

IBT Zzzz

1450 BC (1)

Warrior renamed Warrior Bede moved S
WorkerC move NW
WorkerB Road
WorkerD Road
WarriorNosey move S
WarriorWilly move W
Curragh1 move S-S

IBT Zzzz

1425 BC (2)

Warrior Bede move SE-S
WorkerC Road
Curragh1 move E-SW
WarriorNosey move S
Warrior Willy W

IBT Paris Settler -> Settler, Lyons Settler -> Galley

1400 BC (3)

Settler(Lyons) move W
Settler(Paris) move NW
Warrior Bede move SE-SE-S
Warrior3 defeats Barbarian Warrior E of Paris no Promotion
WorkerD Irrigate
WorkerB Irrigate
Curragh1 move S-NW
WarriorNosey move S
WarriorWilly move NE

IBT Orleans builds Settler -> Warrior

1375 BC (4)

Settler(Orleans) move NW-NW
Settler(Lyons) move NW-W-NW
Settler(Paris) move N
Warrior Bede move SE-SE-SE
Warrior3 move W-Fortify in Paris
Curragh1 move W-NW
WarriorNosey move S
WarriorWilly move NE
WorkerA move SE
Warrior renamed Warrior D'Artagnan move SE

IBT Zzzz

1350 BC (5)

WarriorNosey move S
WarriorWilly move N
Settler(Orleans) move NW
Settler(Lyons) move NE-NE-NE
Settler(Paris) move NW-N
WorkerA Road
Warrior D'Artagnan skip
Warrior Bede move E
Curragh1 move NW-NW

IBT Zzzz

1325 BC (6)

WarriorNosey move N
WarriorWilly move S
Settler(Orleans) founds Tours set to Worker
WorkerC move SW
Settler(Paris) move NE-N-NW
Warrior D'Artagnan move NW
Settler(Lyons) move E
WorkerD move NE
WorkerB move NE-NE
Warrior Bede move S
Curragh1 move NW-NW

IBT Barbarian Horseman kills Lyons Settler :mad: , Rheims builds Barracks -> Spearman

1300 BC (7)

WorkerC Road
WorkerB&D Road
WorkerA move SW-SW-SW
Warrior D'Artagnan move NW
Settler(Paris) founds Marseilles set to build Warrior
Lux to 20% as the Silks have been connected with the founding of Marseilles
Warrior Bede kills Barbarian camp no promotion
Curragh1 move S-S
WarriorNosey move W
WarriorWilly move S

IBT Paris builds Settler -> Settler

1275 BC (8)

Settler(Paris) move W-N-N
WorkerA move SE
Warrior D'Artagnan fortify in Marseilles
Warrior Bede fortify to heal
Curragh1 move S-SW
WarriorNosey move S
WarriorWilly move S

IBT Barbarian Galley dies to our Curragh1, Orleans builds Warrior Bahz -> Warrior

1250 BC (9)

WorkerA move SE-E-NE
Settler(Paris) move NW
Warrior Bahz move NE-NE-N
WorkerB Chop forest
WorkerD move NE
WorkerC Irrigate
Curragh1 move SW-W
WarriorNosey move SW
WarriorWilly move SE

IBT Zzzz

1225 BC (10)

Warrior Bahz move NW-NE(kills barbarian warrior, no promotion)
Settler(Paris) move N-W-SW(case of butter fingers when moving)
WorkerD move NW-NW-N
WorkerA Road
Warrior Bede move NE
Curragh1 move W-NW
WarriorNosey move SW
WarriorWilly move SE

IBT Zzzz

1200 BC (11)

Warrior Bahz fortify to heal
Warrior D'Artagnan move E
WorkerD move SW
Settler(Paris) move W
Warrior Bede move N
Curragh1 move N-N
Warrior1 move NW-NW-NW
WarriorNosey move N
WarriorWilly move SE

IBT Warrior D'Artagnan defeats an attacking Barbarian Horseman(no promotion), Paris builds Settler -> Warrior, Orleans Warrior Ansar -> Warrior, Marseilles Warrior Tribute -> Warrior

1175 BC (12)

Warrior Tribute move E
Warrior D'Artagnan move W
Warrior Ansar fortify in Orleans for defense
WorkerB move NE
WorkerC move N-skip
Warrior1 fortify
WorkerD skip
Settler(Paris) move W
Settler(Paris) move SE-SE-SE
Warrior Bede fortify at city site to be
Curragh1 move W-NW
WarriorNosey move NE
WarriorWilly move SE

IBT Lyons builds Galley1 -> Warrior

1150 BC (13)

Galley1 move E-E-NE
Settler(Paris) move E
Curragh1 move W-W
WorkerB move S
workerC&D skip due to barbarian horseman near
Warrior D'Artagnan fortify to heal
Warrior Bahz move E
Warrior Tribute move NE
Settler(Paris) found Chartres set to build Warrior
WarriorNosey move NE
WarriorWilly move S

Following are 2 possible trades.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8829/engtrade0yz.jpg

I took this trade

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/9263/irotrade4cn.jpg

In hindsight I should have taken the English trade first as I couldn't get the English deal after making the trade with Iroquios

IBT Iroquios extortionist!

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1106/extortingiro4cx.jpg

Paris builds Warrior Chuchui -> Settler, Rheims builds Spearman1 -> Settler

1125 BC (14)

Spearman1 Fortify in Rheims
WarriorYellow move NE-NE
WorkerB Road
WorkerC&D skip due to barbarian horseman near
Warrior Tribute kills barbarian camp no promotion
WorkerA chop forest
Warrior Chuchui move W-SW-W
Settler(Paris) found Avignon set to Galley
Curragh1 move NW-NW
Galley1 move NE-NE-E
WarriorNosey move NE
WarriorWilly move S
Warrior Bahz move NE

IBT Orleans builds Warrior Dude -> Settler, Code of Laws is researched -> Republic

1100 BC (15)

Warrior Dude move N-NW(kills Barbarian Horseman and promotes to Vet)
WarriorYellow move W
WorkerC move S-W
WorkerD move S-S
Warrior Bahz move N
Warrior Tribute fortify to heal
Curragh1 move W-W
Warrior Chuchui move SW
Galley1 move N-N-NW
WarriorNosey move NE
WarriorWilly move S

IBT Seems Iroquois and the English are at war! Southern most English city razed, Lyons builds Warrior Roland -> Settler, Tours builds WorkerE -> Archer

1075 BC (16)

Worker move N
Warrior Dude move NW
Warrior Bahz fortify at city site
Warrior Tribute move S
Warrior Roland move W
WorkerD SW-SW
WarriorYellow move S
WorkerC Road
Warrior Chuchui fortify at city site
Curragh1 move NW-NW
Galley1 move W-SW-SW
WarriorNosey move NE
WarriorWilly move SW

IBT Marseilles Warrior Jacques -> Archer, Establish Embassy with the Iroquios

1050 BC (17)

Warrior Jacques move W
Warrior Dude move W
WorkerE Road
WarriorYellow move W-SW
WorkerD Road
Curragh1 move NW-NW
Warrior Roland move W-NW-N
WorkerA mine
Warrior Tribute move SE
Galley1 move SW-S-S
WarriorNosey move NE
WarriorWilly move W

IBT

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9549/incacolossus3za.jpg

1025 BC (18)

Warrior Tribute fortify at city site
Galley1 move SW-SW-SW
WorkerB move NW-Irrigate
Warrior Roland move W-NW-NW
Warrior Dude move NW
WorkerC Irrigate
WarriorYellow move SW
Curragh1 move W-SW
Warrior Jacques move NW
WarriorWilly move SE kills barbarian camp no promotion
WarriorNosey move E

IBT Horses near Rheims are connected to Paris!!:cool:

1000 BC (19)

Galley1 move N into Lyons to ambush Barbarian Galleys next turn
Warrior Roland move N-N
WorkerE Irrgate
Warrior Dude move N
Warrior Jacques move N
WorkerD mine
WarriorYellow fortify at city site
Curragh1 move SW-S
WarriorWilly fortify to heal
WarriorNosey move N

Ended my turnset here as victory screen showed that its turn 80 and here's a pic of our Growing Empire.
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2190/joansempire0yi.jpg

After action notes

Galley1 can transport a future warrior/settler pair to the island to the se. There are 4 settlers in various stages of production. Settler from Paris should settle to the west at WarriorYellow or Warrior Chuchui. Settler from Lyons should settle at Warrior Bahz or Warrior Tribute. Settlers from Rheims and Orleans should settle toward the wines to give us our 2nd lux. Warriors Dude, Jacques and Roland are heading North to search for barbarians and defend city sites. WarriorNosey is still nosing around the Iroquios Lands while WarriorWilly is heading south toward home.

Treasury is at 153 g in the kitty while losing 1 gpt
Lux is at 20%(wines will lower this)
Researching Republic due in 29turns(I think)
We have tech parity with the Iroquois and are up CoL on England.

Need to explore for iron on the se island, as I think the 3 to the north will all belong to the Iroquios before to much longer.(if the keep fighting the english that is)
Attaching 2 saves. the one before I made my trade with the Iroquios and the save for the next player.

Oh. Good point. But unfortuneately, not everybody has the ABC rename button. More things not everybody has:
1. Special Automate buttons. They have to use the keyboard commands.
2. The owner of the city in parentheses after the city name.
I am one of these people, and can only get these things through succesion games. Why do some people have these and some not? :confused:

IIRC, its crtl + n , to rename a unit.:)

A few things.

Settler(Paris) move N-W-SW(case of butter fingers when moving)


Ah, yes, butterfingers slipping cause you to move to the wrong place. This happens to me all the time.


IBT Seems Iroquois and the English are at war! Southern most English city


Hm. Maybe you can help one of them and get some new cities...:mischief:


http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2190/joansempire0yi.jpg


Wow, that is a lot of barb galleys! :wow:

Oh. Good point. But unfortuneately, not everybody has the ABC rename button. More things not everybody has:
1. Special Automate buttons. They have to use the keyboard commands.
2. The owner of the city in parentheses after the city name.
I am one of these people, and can only get these things through succesion games. Why do some people have these and some not? :confused:

Check your preference setting to see if you have turned off "Show Advanced Unit Action Buttons".

Oh. Good point. But unfortuneately, not everybody has the ABC rename button.
True, the ABC button is not in Vanilla, but it is part of PTW and C3C. In Vanilla, the only time you can rename is when an elite unit creates a leader.

Check your preference setting to see if you have turned off "Show Advanced Unit Action Buttons".
Oh. Maybe that's it. Does that also make the "city(cityowner)" appear and make the cultural advisor tell you when AI's start building GW's?

There is a preference to enable color blind and that shows the civ name. I use it as often the colors are similar bewtween some civs.

The advisor is Show Wonder initiation.