Welcome to your SGOTM 10 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php) page on May 7th, at midnight, server local time.

Thanks again to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

You are Elizabeth of England, and your mission is simply to destroy the barbarians, who have evolved considerably in this game, having learnt a few tricks from their cousins in Civ4. They have advanced weaponry, they can build cities, and they have an uncanny capability to learn new technologies.

All victory conditions are switched on, but the winning team will be the one that achieves the destruction of the barbarian nation earliest.

Here's the start.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/SGOTM10-start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - England
Opponents - Six: Mayans, Byzantines, Dutch, Inca, Sumerians, Barbarians.
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Emperor
Landform - Mystery
Barbarians - Non-standard :eek:

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
The game uses the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following modifications:

- Galleys can never enter ocean tiles.
- There are some unusual advanced/modified Barbarian units.
- The Barbarians have research capabilities, and can build cities and wonders.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included, as you can see from the starting screenshot. If you have played SGOTM 9 then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/saves/SGOTM-C3C.zip). Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t= 112722).

Please ensure that you have incuded the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
The SGOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112722)

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest destruction of the Barbarian Nation. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final score.

C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun :D

Welcome old and new members of team tao: Dbear, Furiey, Htadus, tao, The_Godfather, Tone. Let us have a good time working on this challenge.

Based on experience from the last sgotm, where we lost steam once and it was very hard to get going again, I want to stick with the 24 hour "got it" and 72 hour "play" rule. Cum grano salis. If you want a skip or swap, please tell us as soon as possible. We are of course flexible.

I suggest we stick with the alphabetical sequence for our play, i.e.:

Dbear (first)
Furiey
Htadus
tao
The_Godfather
Tone

unless someone want a change.

Hello everyone,
First, I am thrilled to be involved in a team game and thank you for having me.
Second, I have not, at this posting, gotton all the mods. But I will before the game start.
Third, I am ready and willing to have some barbarian beating fun.

I wonder what the catch is in this game? Barbs must have a head start?

I wonder what the catch is in this game? Barbs must have a head start?IMHO the statement "Galleys can never enter ocean tiles" indicates that we will have to cross the ocean to kill the barbs. Thus it probably is an initial tech race towards navigation or magnetism.

Reporting in and welcome to all the new team members!

I must remember that this is Conquests and not vanilla, and load the resourses file and make sure AIPatrol is set correctly. It's going to be strange not worrying about RCP.

I think it's a good bet that we will have to cross the ocean to kill the barbs so agree on the race to do so. Getting the other Civs involved will help in our task, I guess the locked war/peace is to stop a complete dogpile on the Barbs. This is going to be a World War!

I've played not with locked war/peace but would guess that war weariness would hit as usual so we will have to choose our government appropriately.

You're not taking the first 20 turns then tao?

Just saying hello to sign in. Now back to game 9...;)

See you later!

Getting the other Civs involved will help in our task, I guess the locked war/peace is to stop a complete dogpile on the Barbs. This is going to be a World War!

You misunderstand.. every civ is already locked into a dogpile on the barbs :p

OK, thanks Gyathaar.

tao: are you playing this on your Mac or PC? If it's the Mac best to contact AlanH and check the maintenance thread.

tao: are you playing this on your Mac or PC?I have switched my Civ playing to the PC. Two reasons: CivAssistII, and my old Windtunnel Mac is too noisy.

Regrettably(?), in my experience Civ runs much more stable on the Mac.

DBear reporting in.

I would rather not go first, if you don't mind. My QSC scores tend to be on the low side and I don't want to get the team behind too quickly.

And a comment. If the barbs are at war with everyone, how will they learn tech quickly?

If the barbs are at war with everyone, how will they learn tech quickly?the save is now available so I've had a look in the Civilopedia.

Barbarian specific Great Wonder: Technology Thieves, cost 20 shields. It appears to act like the Great Library so they'll have no trouble keeping up.

There's also a Barbarian specific Unit: Barbarian Guard, cost 20, attack 0, defence 8, movement 1, bombard 9, range 3, rate of fire 3. It uses the Civilopedia entry for the Cannon, but I don't know if that means that it is enabled by the same tech and needs the same resources as the cannon as there is no mention of it elsewhere that I can find.

edit: this from the maintenance thread:
Barbarians cannot build them like normal units.. they receive a limited number of them by other means.

Hi Folks, I am all set up and ready to go.:cool:

With a def of 8, the Barb Def unit seem to be quite formidable. So I guess we should have many cats and mounted units for assults.

I would suggest all out expansion at first, depending on the proximity to AI Barbs.

Should we be going for very tight city format since the goal is conquest?

Just wondering.

The bombard range of those Barbarian Guards is going to make things interesting. With bombard of 9 and a range of 3 it's going to be very difficult to get and intact stack close enough. At least it didn't say lethal bombard!

Barb Guard generation sounds like another 'Barb only' wonder similar to SoZ or KT. They will be formidable opponants, even for cavs.

Who is going first then? Furiey is next on the list, but maybe our leader should start? tao?

ps. Welcome to the new team members. @DBear: I've enjoyed reading your contributions in the XOTM threads (when I still get around to visiting that area). I'm sure that you will be full of good ideas. Maybe with new blood, Team tao can host some lively discussions again this time around.

Yes - probably better that tao goes first, he can either just swap positions with DBear or do a first set of turns then drop back into the currently listed playing order. Unless your really really want to risk me going first which I wouldn't advise doing.....

I guess we would have to have stacks of balanced units (offensive, defensive and bomb units) to deal with the bombardment. Also we can have combat settlers with the units to build cities just within the barb perimeter to speed up travel or massive ferry operations towards coastal cities.

All this would only matter if a Barbs UU defending the City.

It appear there is another bonus source 3 tiles NE of the current site. May be we should move one tile NE to get the bonus. Any thoughts.

By popular demand ;) Got it. I will play eithet today or tomorrow. Now have to hurry to the office.

It appear there is another bonus source 3 tiles NE of the current site. May be we should move one tile NE to get the bonus. Any thoughts.
Fog gazing? I was never any good at that. What is the bonus? Gaining the use of the hill will give us better production later in the game although the move you suggest means that we lose the use of the game tile in the first 10 turns and thus we'll be 10 shields short, though we'll benefit from higher commerce during these turns.

I had wondered about that, also whether there was anything in the tile we can't see by the game that we would lose. Moving does gain us another BG, but loses the game in the initial 9 tiles. My fog gazing is pretty useless and I would be interested to know what the bonus could be too.

Pre-turn thoughts:
Install mediterranean resources if you are new to sgotm. I am, at least in conquests.
Install CivAssist II - it is an incredibly useful tool and greatly enhances your gameplay.

There are those who do a lot of paper and pencil (or Excel) work to determine the optimal starting sequence. I prefer to just "play". ;)

0: 4000BC: Where to settle? In place gives immediate access to the game forest, is coastal, but in the long run shield poor.

Move worker to bg, see more hills. Decide to move settler E. Now we have 2 bg, irrigated wheat and irrigated game (after chopping), 2 bg, 4 hills. IMHO a killer site or OCC. But we have other plans.

1: 3950BC: London founded starting warrior; worker starts mining. And we have plains sheep NNE: 3/1 if irrigated in despotism. This is what some people spotted in their fog gazing.
Research starts full speed on writing. Worker starts mine

2: 3900BC, 3: 3850BC, 4: 3800BC, 5: 3750BC zzzzz

6: 3700BC: London builds warrior starts next; warrior NE on hill

7: 3650BC: mine done, start road; warrior E

8: 3600BC: warrior E

IBT message: Barbarians are building Technology Thieves

9: 3550BC: mm to wheat, warrior E on hill sees pink borders

10: 3500BC: London b warrior s granary. Pink borders have expanded and we contact Pachacuti of the Inca. He lacks alphabet, knows cb, masonry. Trade him alphabet for masonry. Warrior N, worker moves towards 2nd bg

11: 3450BC: warrior N on mountain, worker on bg

12: 3400BC: warrior goes S, worker mines

IBT Barbarian city of Barbarian Stronghold completed Technology Thieves.

13: 3350BC, 14; 3300BC: zzzzzz

15: 3250BC: CivAssist tells us Inca learned wc.

16: 3200BC: zzz

17: 3150BC: warrior sees goody hut on mountain. Should we pop it? May give barbs, but is on moutain and thus warrior has good defence. Let's try it. No risk, no fun.

18: 3100BC: worker starts road, warrior next to huts sees volcano

19: 3050BC: see blueish borders in the north.
Pop hut an get 3 Marcomanni warriors. :(

20: 3000BC: barbs don't attack but move towards us (or Inca, hopefully). Attack and kill one of them without damage.

Important: London is about to riot: you must give lux tax.

Dbear (up next)
Furiey
Htadus
The_Godfather
Tone
tao (just played)

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5407/taosgotm103000bc1it.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=taosgotm103000bc1it.jpg)

tao, if you don't mind my asking: why did you move the settler e instead of ne? By moving e you move 1 off the coast, which I dislike since those squares can never be improved without a harbor. Also, you now have 1 of the shellfish outside the city borders upon expansion. I don't think getting the 2 hills is worth losing the above benefits.

I wanted more shields. True we can't build a harbor to get more food from water, but with irrigated wheat and game IMHO we all the food we need. Of course you (and others) may disagree. Let's see what happens ....

I wondered just the same untill I saw that in the long run we will have a very good production where Tao settled. :goodjob: Also there will be additional gold from the river front real estate to compansate and we can have a another city to the east of Capitol to use the bonus coast squares.

It look like we will have been set up to fight it out for expansion.

Should we build cities really tight (CxxC) or give some room (CxxxC or CxxxxC)?

I would build a city on the grass N, NE of barb on the mountain and use chops to build a war and grainary. I am fond of river tiles.:D

We are going to need some culture to keep the cities from flipping.:)

Moving the settler away from the coast means that we lose the bonus commerce as well but we need the production of those hills so I think that it was worth it. Only two coastal tiles is not too much to worry about when considering food, and I rarely have a capital that uses all 20 tiles so maybe we can get a 'first ring' city to use at least one of those tiles from a coastal base. We will certainly need some coastal sites at some point.

BTW I don't like the surrounding terrain much from what I can see!

Greetings to all!
A question the first - me have entered into the list of your command but... I have not found myself!!!:-)
A question of the second: how many turns I can make before transfer of a turn, may be 20? - I anywhere has not found the answer!!

Hi Cron, welcome to team tao. Yes you were a late sign up but I can't find you on the submissions list so I have asked AlanH what has happened as you will need to be included to submit a save.

In answer to your second question: We normally play 10 turns each then pass it on. The very first set of turns that tao has already done is 20 as not a lot usually happens!. tao will fit you in the roster somewhere so you'll see how it works and how we report what happens before you have to play.

I hope you enjoy the game.

Oh yes, I have already made N turn, have opened Philosophy, the free Literature and I have 5 cities, iron and an other chicken-feed ;-).

Welcome to the team, Cron. I suggest we put you in the team last ;), i.e.

Dbear (up next)
Furiey
Htadus
The_Godfather
Tone
Cron
tao (just played)

More musings:

1. I looks like a 4-turn settler factory. Thus we will out-expand the AI, hopefully.

2. I would not settle to close as IMHO the game will go at least till the end of the Middle Ages.

3. IIRC in conquest RCP is not a good idea.

4. We need lots of workers.

Got it, will play tonight

I offer as follows:
3000 bc:
war att barb on the mountain (SW) - barb att he and we have veteran w/o 1 health. give people 10% entertainment

2950 bc:
1. war go to mount (SW)
2. worker go to the wheat (SW)

2900 bc:
1. war fortify, worker built mine

2850 bc:
1. Gran compl. - next war.
2. War go to volkano

next: war go S

2750 bc:
war go dyes, sity build sett, no entertainment

2700 bc:
war go (S) and wait for 2590 - go to camp and got 25g

after some turn build town near river (e-e-e-s from cap)
cap build war and sett
2-nd town build war-gran-templ-GWonder - worker clear forest (NW) and build mine-mine-mine (many mine ;-) )


what is IIRC & RCP ?

Oh yes, I have already made N turn, have opened Philosophy, the free Literature and I have 5 cities, iron and an other chicken-feed ;-).
@Cron: You do not play any turns until it's your time to play, and then you play from the save uploaded by the previous player for a limited number of turns. You play your turns to a plan that is agreed by the team.

If you do not understand the rules of the SGOTM then please take some time to read the SGOTM Reference thread, and the other information theads it refers to, and do not play the game until you are ready, and your team leader says so.

You do not play any turns until it's your time to play

Yes, i'm know :blush: , but... It's terribly interesting - hands are scratched :crazyeye:

BTW I don't like the surrounding terrain much from what I can see!

I agree and wish we had the industrious trait (do we?). So lets build workers.

As Tao stated, we should get a 4 turn factory going. I usually forget to assign the city workers and end up getting a settler in 3 turns and loose sheilds and food. I hope you all are better at that.

Also, will it be possible to do a war and a worker every two turn from a settler factory? I guess that would require 10 shelds each turn and 5 extra food. Has anyone done that in the past?

Yes, i'm know :blush: , but... It's terribly interesting - hands are scratched :crazyeye:

I know what you mean by that. I too can not wait to play.

Oh..yes... welcome to the team Cron.

3000BC: set happiness to 10%. This delays writing from 26 to 31 turns while leaving us solvent. Plans are to build another warrior as MP after grainary finishes, another worker, then settler. But where will our second city go? The terrain is rubbish and we are crowded. Warrior e.

2950: Warrior south. Writing down to 25 turns so someone must've picked it up. Worker sw to grain.

2900: A primitive (I will use this term to distinguish the men in white from the Barbarian Nation) attacks warrior and does no damage.
Warrior s, spots dye. Is there anything closer? Yuck, I see that I only had 1 shield to finish grainary. I could've had a worker on the grain to increase pop while still getting the grainary. Worker roads.

2850: London finishes grainary, starts another warrior for MP. Production now at 5 shields, 3 grain/turn. We start running a deficit, so science gets turned down to 80%. Warrior w.

2800: Warrior w to volcano, spots some good land. River, BG, and cow available.

2750: London finishes warrior, starts worker. Turn off lux, increase science to 90%. Worker irrigates grain. Warrior w.

2710: Warrior w, spots coast.

2670: London finishes worker, starts settler. Warrior n. Worker se, irrigates. Start running deficit again, turn science down to 70%.

2630: Workers n to hill. Warrior n, sees lake and marsh. Science back to 80% with additional population.

2590: Workers road. Warrior w.

2550: Warrior w.

2510: Warrior w. London reaches pop 4, so turn science down and happiness up.

2470: London finishes settler, starts warrior. Turn happiness off, maintain balanced budget. Workers mine. Settler and warrior 2se, where we spot a Mayan in the distance. We greet them, but they are ahead of us and we have nothing to offer them. Warrior nw.

2430: Warrior and settler e. Warrior n.

2390: London finishes warrior, starts rax. Warrior and settler s. Would've moved se, but Mayan is in the way. Warrior n. Science turned down for balanced budget.

To do list. Either move warrior and settler ne to BG or e. Depends on how far you want to space cities and whether you want to waste a BG. The barracks order can be changed to what you will, but I think London needs to build its population back up to make the settler factory go.

In sum, I finished the grainary and built 2 warriors, a worker, and a settler while making another contact.

Preface:
We should always put the roster at the end of our turn report:
Furiey (up next)
Htadus
The_Godfather
Tone
Cron
tao
Dbear (just played)


From now on, we should play 10 turns each.

Game Progress:
I am not at all happy with the current status.We want to turn London into a 4-turn settler factory. At least I thought so.
Mining the hill is wasting worker turns. Two shields come from forrest.
The barracks is harmful, as we want to build workers and settlers and not spend money on upkeep of improvements not needed. Just build reg units for mp and exploration.
Much much more urgent we need to either irrigate the sheep or the game to get +5 food.

If we settle 2NE of the current position, we get 3bg, flood plain, 2 hills. A killer site IMHO.

Preface:

Game Progress:
I am not at all happy with the current status.We want to turn London into a 4-turn settler factory. At least I thought so.
Mining the hill is wasting worker turns. Two shields come from forrest.
The barracks is harmful, as we want to build workers and settlers and not spend money on upkeep of improvements not needed. Just build reg units for mp and exploration.
Much much more urgent we need to either irrigate the sheep or the game to get +5 food.

If we settle 2NE of the current position, we get 3bg, flood plain, 2 hills. A killer site IMHO.

I second that.
I would prefer to change the barracks to warriors and get the 2 workers NW to irrigate the lamb. In five turns we should have a settler factory. Build settlers after we have pop of 4 in London.
If we were to send a settler (w/war) to get the lux, it should still be a good producer since rank corruption will be low.

Hm, may be, we lost:
25g from camp and give it other civ with something ;-)
2 turn for move sett on the NE-NE (town on the river with more than 4bg), and because town now nearest marsh our people can hurt.

Please put here the reference on pack with resources.
My pack is corrupt.

@Cron: You can find the resource pack in the first post in the maintainance thread here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4012802&postcount=1). Make sure you have NoAIPatrol=0 in your .ini file as well.

To answer your earlier questions: IIRC = If I Remember Correctly, RCP = Ring City Placement which involves building cities at equal distance from the capitol to reduce corruption. RCP doesn't work with Conquests though only Vanilla and Play the World, it will make it worse in Conquests. You can look it up in the War Academy on the main site if you wish.

@team: I have down loaded the save but won't have a chance to look at it until later today, I'll post a proper Got It once I have successfully loaded it.

@tao: Do you want me to play fewer turns to bring us back on track?

@tao: Do you want me to play fewer turns to bring us back on track?Only after you ask, I realize DBear didn't play 20 turns, but about 15. Therefore you may as well play some more turns also to bring us on track, if you want to do so.

Furiey, I do not think RCP hurt at all, but it is not as good as in Vanilla or PTW. It is still the best option since it will get the same distance corruption. The problem is rank corruption, which increase with each new city.

Tao, I too am willing to reduce no. of turns to get us corrected.

Cron, the site can become a problem until we clear the marsh, but in the long run it will be an awsome producer. We just got to build some workers. We can build a worker every 2 turns from the factory.

Oops, Better get back to work.

Give'em hell Furiey.;)

Cron: I deleted your message and told you it was illegal. You have replaced my warning and put back your previous text.

If you did not understand my message you should have contacted me. You must NEVER delete a message by a moderator.

I am removing you from this team roster with immediate effect. If you ever do anything like this again I will ban you from the forums.

Am I misunderstanding you or are you playing ahead again, Cron? (and are we in danger of getting disqualified?)

edit: with the save posted I guess there is no misunderstanding. Please check the rules and can I suggest that you don't post here anymore Cron until you understand what SGOTM is all about.

@Tone:
I am sorry, but a starting point for me was the first save and accordingly the result laid out here is only alternative "As I would make "
It someone cannot be repeated once again and has been laid out only for reception of an estimation by other players. (Bad, Good or other)

In any case I apologize once again.

OK, Got It.

The Workers have 3 turns left on the current mine. Eiither interrupt them sending 1 to irrigate the lambs, the other to start on mining the BG for the new city or we could let them finish first but that hill won't be used for quite a while.

Settler: 2NE and NNE both give 4 BG (not counting the one in Inca territory) and 2 hills + 1 shared with London, +1 floodplain. NNE gives more overlap with London. NE loses 2 BG, E loses the Floodplain and 1 BG gaining 2 hills. On the whole I also prefer 2NE.

I agree Warriors to build up the pop for the settler factory rather than the Barracks, DBear did say it was a placeholder and could be changed.

Writing is currently due in 16 turns, but that will change as we have to use the lux slider and build the next city.

I won't be able to play until tomorrow night and will post some more comments before then. It looks like 16 turns to get us back on track but I'll double check that and see how things go.

The Workers have 3 turns left on the current mine. Eiither interrupt them sending 1 to irrigate the lambs, the other to start on mining the BG for the new city or we could let them finish first but that hill won't be used for quite a while.Did you check whether using both workers to irrigate the lamb isn't necessary to get the factory running asap? I would give absolute preference to this task.

Did you check whether using both workers to irrigate the lamb isn't necessary to get the factory running asap? I would give absolute preference to this task.

I recommend we use both workers. Each will lose 1 turn for the move, 2 turns each to irrigate tile N of town, loose another turn to move (no road) and two more turns to irrigate the lamb for a total of 6 turns. Put a citizen to work the lamb tile on that turn and we have a settler factory in 6 turns.
If you road the first irrigated tile, it will take 8 turns total.

Using 1 worker: Loose two turns to move, 4 turns each to irrigate for a total of 10 turns. And if we road the first tile, it will take 13 turns.

So I hope Furiey use both workers. Sooner we have a settler factory, the better it would be.

I only had time for a quick look last night to check I could load the save before I posted a got it. I intend to get my spreadsheet out later today and plan out best use to tie in completion of the lambs irrigation with growth of the city. We need that tile irrigated quickly and with 2 tiles to irrigate to complete the task I will probably use both.

I've had PC problems tonight (it kept rebooting to 640x480) so have not started playing yet.

I have looked at the city and interrupting both workers we can get the Sheep irrigated by turn 6 which ties in perfectly with the city growing to size 5 the following turn. If we build 3 Warriors before the next Settler we get the next Settler on turn 9 and the city will be in sequence for a 4 turn Settler factory at size 4 to 6. However, if we irrigate a further plains tile and produce 5 Warriors before the next Settler we can have a 4 turn Warrior + Settler factory from size 5.5 to 7.5 (or 2 turn Warrior + Worker from 5.5 to 6.5). This second option will give the next Settler on turn 12, 3 turns later than the straight 4 turn settler factory.

I think the best option is to produce the first Settler as for the 4 turn Settler factory then produce 2 Warriors to allow the city to grow and become the 4 turn Warrior+Settler/2 turn Warrior+Worker factory. This will give Settlers on turns 9, 16, 20 etc and has the added advantage that the second Plains can be irrigated by only 1 worker rather than needing 2 to get it done in time.

It's too late to play tonight now, I'll play tomorrow, but if we're getting another Settler on turn 9 and I do more turns to get us back on track we need to pick some more city sites. For the current Settler I'll go 2NE.

.... we need to pick some more city sites. For the current Settler I'll go 2NE.
@team; What do you think of 4 tiles SW of London? We could chop the game forest and another forest to get a Granary going. Irrigate Game and the lamb. We should have a 3 turn worker factory. I think. Might have to do some MM. Also we should claim the two goats in the south west hills. It give 2 fpt and 2 spt. Which means even in despotism both should give 3spt once mined. It will be an awsome site.:)

The only problem with chopping the game is that London needs it if we want to do the 4 turn Warrior/Settler factory or 2 turn Warrior Worker factory. Unless we find another BG under the forest we'll either be short of food or shields.

I'm playing now and have founded York which has dropped the min time for Writing considerably. I notice however that there is no discussion on tech path. Are we going for Philosophy next for the free tech? in which case which one? Literature for Great Library? Map Making? As we are locked in War I suppose we'll be going Monarchy rather than Republic so we don't need Republic. I've picked up Bronze Working from Sumeria.

edit: turn 9 and we now have a Settler and know where Iron and Horses are. I've just had some unexpected visitors arrive so will have to finish later. It's not such a good site as others, but I'm tempted to put a city 1N of the Horses to claim them.

The only problem with chopping the game is that London needs it if we want to do the 4 turn Warrior/Settler factory or 2 turn Warrior Worker factory. Unless we find another BG under the forest we'll either be short of food or shields.

Unfortunately, :sad: I think we are going to be 1 shield less to do that. W/5 citizens, we can get only 9spt and 5 fpt. If we had a cow instead of the wheat, we would have been able to do that. too bad.

Cool thing is that you have tought me what is needed for a war/settle combo factory. I never noticed it before. Thanks Furiey.:goodjob:

...Are we going for Philosophy next for the free tech? in which case which one? Literature for Great Library? Map Making?

I would prefer to get whichever the available tech that require most turns. Usually gov techs if available or top tier techs if available like currency.


edit: turn 9 and we now have a Settler and know where Iron and Horses are. It's not such a good site as others, but I'm tempted to put a city 1N of the Horses to claim them.

I too like that idea. It appears there are no other in the vicinity.
edit: What about the hill between the olive hill and the mountain? After the first expantion, we would have both olives, horse and the goat.

Is the tile N of the horses on the river? If not, I would go NW of the olives. IMHO we build a temple first?

We're now on track for the next players to play the usual 10 turns.

2350 BC (Turn 0): Warrior/Settler NE; exploring Warrior W & meets Inca Chasqui scout; interrupt Workers NW to plains; change Barracks to Warrior due in 1. Press Button.

IBT: London: Warrior>Warrior

2310 BC (Turn 1): London now at size 3, new citizen on wheat, try to change governor to emphasise production but C3C crashes. Reboot PC. Workers irrigate plains; Settler/Warrior to site 2NE of original position; exploring Warrior W; new Warrior N to sheep to explore.

IBT: Zzzz

2270 BC (Turn 2): Build York, start Barracks; N Warrior NE; W Warrior NW; Writing has dropped to 11 at 40%, increase science to 80% for Writing in 6 at +1gpt.

IBT: London: Warrior>Warrior

2230 BC (Turn 3): Workers move to Sheep; N Warrior N, spots Sumerian Settler with Enkidu Warrior escort 3N of the sheep; new Warrior S. Sumerians have Bronze Working, Ceremonial burial and Warrior code like the Maya and Inca but are missing Alphabet (the others already have it). Trade Alphabet for Bronze Working and 22gold.

IBT: Sumerians found Lagash

2190 BC (Turn 4): Workers start irrigating the Sheep; W Warrior continues NW, N Warrior NE and S Warrior S. London now at size 4, increase Lux to 10%. Inca have now got The Wheel. MM for commerce whilst maintaining growth and completing Warrior next turn.

IBT: London: Warrior>Settler; Sumerians complete the Oracle.

2150 BC (Turn 5): N Warrior NE, S Warrior S, NW Warrior W – it looks like it is a peninsular.

IBT: Production in York has been sabotaged! Only 4 shields, but if this gives us an indication of what the game is going to be like…

2110 BC (Turn 6): Well it said production was sabotaged but there are still 4 shields in the box :confused: Workers complete Irrigation and we can now make +5fpt, ready for the city to grow next turn; Warriors continue exploring. Writing has dropped to due in 1 at only 10% science. 1 Worker roads, the other moves back to the irrigated plains

IBT: Complete Writing start philosophy

2070 BC (Turn 7): MM London for grow in 2, Settler in 2, maximising commerce; Warriors explore. Inca will give the Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial and 22 gold for Writing, decide to hold off trading for a while though.

IBT: Zzzz

2030 BC (Turn 8): Warriors explore.

IBT: London: Settler>Warrior.

1990 BC (Turn 9): All 3 Civs now have Iron Working. Sell Maya Writing for Iron working, the Wheel and 41 gold; we have no horses by Iron in the hills by York when it expands; Horses are 2 N of York, outside the city radius. Visitors arrived unexpectedly, I left Civ running but the PC crashed and I had difficulty rebooting, I pick the game up the next day. Move Settler towards horse site. This is a hotly contested region I’ll settle where I am able to.

IBT: Maya start the Pyramids

1950 BC (Turn 10): Settler moves closer to horse sight, can’t see another Settler, I’ll make the hill NNE of the horses if I can; Warriors explore; Worker moves to irrigate second plains by London; other Worker roads floodplains to York.

IBT: Inca move up from the S by the Dyes with a Settler: London: Warrior>Warrior

1910 BC (Turn 11): Somewhere (I can’t see where) we have met the Dutch; get Mysicism and loads of gold for Iron Working which everyone else has; Settler moves to site 1N of Horses, we should be able to settle 1NE; increase lux to 20% to stop London rioting; Warriors explore; Worker starts irrigating second plains.

IBT: Dutch and Barbarians start the Colossos. The Dutch have a Curragh in the far South I didn’t spot until it moved.

1870 BC (Turn 12):

IBT: Byzantines appear from the south by the Dyes; London: Warrior>Settler

1830 BC (Turn 13): London at size 6 and Settler in 3, increase lux to 30%; Warriors explore; Worker roads by York; Inca have Maths.

IBT: Zzzzz

1790 BC (Turn 14): Spot the Byzantine boundary in the S beyond the Dyes.

IBT: Zzzz

1750 BC (Turn 15): Warriors explore.

Treasury: 84 gold -1 gpt, Philosophy in 8 (70%), lux 30%

Post-turn: The Settler will be produced in London next turn and the City should drop to size 5 with the Granary full and 5 food remaining to grow in 1. It will therefore be at the start of the 4 turn Warrior/Settler or 2 turn Warrior/Worker cycle. You will have to watch the lux slider to stop rioting. The forested game is not needed all the time so can be shared with another city (4SE of London?). York is building a Barracks but this may be better changed to something else perhaps to give some culture to get the iron although that could be claimed with another city SSE of the Iron. With Maths available we may be able to trade Philosophy via the big picture and get Construction as our free tech, unless Polytheism becomes available in which case we could do the same for that, unless we can get the techs earlier for where we haven’t traded Writing. 4 possible city sites: 3W of London to get the Fish, Oyster and Rocks, 4SW of London, E of the Mountain Goats, and SSW of the Iron. It’s quite a tight spacing though. We may already be too late to get any Dyes so could end up without luxes.

Htadus (up next)
The_Godfather
Tone
tao
Dbear
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG0010_BC1750_01.SAV)

1. Creating a scientist in London allows to reduce lux and gives philosophy in 6 instead of 8 turns.

2. We should road the game, because we work it often, plus we will sooner or later expand westwards.

3. IMHO York should work the flood plains.

4. With both horses and iron, we can capture the dyes by force in due time.

5. IMHO we should build 2 workers after the settler.

Good thought on the scientist, I hadn't considered that one.

The Worker roading the plains can continue to the game, the Settler due in 1 may well go in that direction.

We still haven't discovered the Barbarian Nation and our home continent looks like territory is going to be tight - it's beginning to look like the Barbarians have got a continent to themselves where they can grow large while we have to fight over every tile.

One strange incident did occur - it was reported that production had been sabotaged in York, but when I looked no production had been lost. Is this working as planned or were we just lucky not to lose anything?

Treasury: 84 gold -1 gpt, Philosophy in 8 (70%), lux 30%

Post-turn: The Settler will be produced in London next turn and the City should drop to size 5 with the Granary full and 5 food remaining to grow in 1. It will therefore be at the start of the 4 turn Warrior/Settler or 2 turn

Furiey, how does this war/settler factory work? Is it from the new citizen?

Got the Save
1. Creating a scientist in London allows to reduce lux and gives philosophy in 6 instead of 8 turns.

2. We should road the game, because we work it often, plus we will sooner or later expand westwards.

3. IMHO York should work the flood plains.

4. With both horses and iron, we can capture the dyes by force in due time.

5. IMHO we should build 2 workers after the settler.

1. If I do this we will lose the factory for the moment, but I agree we should do this. In order to do this in 6 turns I will need 1 scientist from york too at least for one turn. London alone give a 7 turn Philo.

2. I agree and will use the next worker. I think we should chop that tile and irrigate it.

3. Should we not irrigate it first?

4. I would prefer to settle it since the cow is near by, but it is upto you. I am not a good ancient age monger.

5. Agree. but with a warrior in between now that the 5 food is gone. BTW if we chop the game and irrigate it we can get one food back.

P.S. I will wait about a hour (server time) after this posting before playing. So please comment if possible.

1. If I do this we will lose the factory for the momentI don't think so.

2. I agree and will use the next worker. I think we should chop that tile and irrigate it. We don't need to do it, since we have the sheep.

3. Should we not irrigate it first?We get 2 commerce for 1 shield lost to corruption. A no-brainer IMHO.

4. I would prefer to settle it since the cow is near by, but it is upto you. I am not a good ancient age monger.There is an Inca settler on the dyes already. The cow is too far away. Look at these nice goats with a freshwater tile next to them.

5. Agree. but with a warrior in between now that the 5 food is gone. BTW if we chop the game and irrigate it we can get one food back.:confused: I don't understand this argument.

If we use the scientist in London we will lose the +5fpt, it will drop to +3 as we will lose the 2 food from the Oysters. We should keep the factory going now we have got this far so not use the scientist. We will be able to drop lux and raise science next turn when the Settler is produced. We must not chop the game or we again lose the factory as the forested game is needed to give 2 food and enough shields to get 10spt with growth at size 5.5.

We should work the floodplains with York now as the third shield is currently going to waste and working the floodplain even as it is will give 2 more commerce taking Philosophy down from 8 to 7 turns. I missed that when I was playing.

Give me a bit of time and I'll post the arrangements for the factory, but I've got to reboot having just played Civ 4.

I still don't get it. London is pop 7, growth in 6, settler next turn.

If we create a scientist instead of working the plains this turn (of course not permanently), we still get the settler next turn, can reduce lux, create scientist, etc. :confused:

I've been basing the 4 turn Warrior/Settler factory on producing the Settler next turn and ending up with a city at size 5 with a full granary and only needing 5 food to grow in 1. In writing it all down I now have the feeling that I've got it wrong and that when the city drops to size 5 although the granary is full the extra 5 food is lost so the city needs 10 food to grow which at +5fpt will grow in 2. If this is the case then we can use the scientist now as the extra food will be lost anyway, but we will not have enough food to get the Warrior in 1 turn as the extra shields were needed from growth.

Thanks for the input team.
I used most but the no brainer Tao was talking about (working the Fplain)
I needed that Citizen for some thing else as you will see.

Picking up from Furiey at the end of turn 50.

1750 BC(turn 0): Changed production to Temple in York, reassigned a citizen each city to scientist to get 5 turn Philo. Next turn we can drop the lux tax and increase science and revert back citizens toward growth. Hoping for overall research time of 6 turns. Let the worker complete the road N of York.

Treasury: 84 gold -1 gpt, Philosophy in 5 (70% and 3 scientists), lux 30%

IBT: Inca claimed all three dyes. Hummmmmm

1725 BC(Turn 1): London: Settler>worker. Settler and a War head to 4SW to get a 3 turn worker factory going. Philo drop to six turns. Adjusted the slider for Philo in 5 turns. We still need the two scientist from York and Nottingham. War north of York goes out exploring.

IBT: Lone exploring warrior get killed by a primative.:mad:

1700 BC(Turn 2): Worker complete road and start irrigating FPlain.

IBT: Both Inca and Byzantia asked as to go elsewhere.

1675 BC(Turn 3): London: Worker>Worker. Philo in 3 turns with only one scientist (increased science to 80%). So York is back to growing. New worker is helping irrigate FPlain.

IBT: Zzzz

1650 BC(Turn 4): Zzzz

IBT: Inca boots us out. So Sensitive.:mischief:

1625 BC(Turn 5): London: worker>Settler. Worker goes to help road game. Established Hastings 4 tiles SW of London. Two workers complete irrigation. Next they will chop to speed temple in York. Philo next turn and still need the
scientist from Nottingham. So I dropped Science to 70%.

IBT: Learn Philo and tried to trade it to Inca for all our gold (80) and 10gpt but our advisor informed me Inca do not want to make the deal. So we choose Poly since we are going after Monarchy and needed most turns.

1600 BC (Turn 6): Wow, that was close. Inca also learned Philo in that turn. Good call Tao. I feel good about using Scientists. This was a first for me. We sell writing to Sumeria for 40g. They think we are generous. Inca will trade math now but I am going to wait. Lit in 20 turns. We need Librarys. May be the GLib.

Treasury: 119 gold -1 gpt, Lit in 20, Sci 70%, lux 30%

IBT: Zzzz

1575 BC (Turn 7): London need lux, so Sci 60% and Lux 40% for Lit in 22 turns. We need to keep an eye out to make sure London stay 5 fpt.

IBT: Zzzz

1550 BC (Turn 8): Workers completed chop and found BG.:D Mine in 3.

IBT: Zzzz

1525 BC (Turn 9): London: Settler>Worker. Lux 20%, Sci 80%->Lit in 16T. Settler is heading S. No escort. Changed the Spear in Hasting to Granary and will have the workers chop tile NE of Hastings. Completed roading the game.

IBT:Zzzz

1500 BC (Turn 10): Workers start the chop. War hanging out with the two inca War should be re-routed for MP-ing.

IBT: Zzzz.

File saved is at the top of Turn 61. Please make changes as needed. The new worker was meant to follow the Settler (w/o roading) and start irrigating to Hastings to irrigate the Lamb.

The_Godfather (up next) Have fun.:)
Tone
tao
Dbear
Furiey
Htadus (just played)

P.S.

No body seem to be doing any research at the moment.
There are Primatives west of Hastings.
The Settler is meant to settle 4 tiles S of London OR 3 S and 1 SW. I prefer later. So we can use the river tile 6S of London for a City.




http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_BC1475_01.SAV

My sincerest appologiest to the team. I just looked at the Score graph and realized my save should have been 1500BC not 1475BC. I have not made any moves for turn 61 (1475BC) so I hope that still leave The_Godfather with 10 playable turns. I will more than happy to forfit a turn next time. I know you are thinking newbe alert. Sorry team :( . I never considerd 4000BC as turn 0.

Yes, you shouldn't have pressed the button at the end of turn 10 so that would have been turn 0 for the next player. The Godfather should therefore only play 9 turns until 1250BC and save and upload at the end of that turn before pressing the button.

Sorry too late for me to look at the save or comment tonight.

1. I am not totally convinced that monarchy is the government of choice. Actual fighting the barbarians is a long time in the future and republic might bring us there faster.

2. Changing the York barracks to temple? I see the argument, but we urgently need vet units to protect our cities/settlers.

3. We need to connect the horses!

4. Granary in Hastings (a low food town) IMHO is bad. I would immediately switch to barracks.

5. In general, I think using specialists so early in the game is bad - despite of the success this time.

6. I am not convinced that literature is the right tech to research. We will go to war long before we have time to invest in libraries. But too late to switch now.

7. Inca have to go: the have 3 luxuries we want.

8. The warrior south of Hastings should protect the new city.

9. London should work the oysters, never the game(!) +2 commerce per turn. Shields will come after the growth from the irrigated river plains. Micromanage after growth!

Edit/add: For me it is obvious NOT to go for The Great Library nor any other AA Wonder ....

1. I am not totally convinced that monarchy is the government of choice. Actual fighting the barbarians is a long time in the future and republic might bring us there faster.

2. Changing the York barracks to temple? I see the argument, but we urgently need vet units to protect our cities/settlers.

3. We need to connect the horses!

4. Granary in Hastings (a low food town) IMHO is bad. I would immediately switch to barracks.

5. In general, I think using specialists so early in the game is bad - despite of the success this time.

6. I am not convinced that literature is the right tech to research. We will go to war long before we have time to invest in libraries. But too late to switch now.

7. Inca have to go: the have 3 luxuries we want.

8. The warrior south of Hastings should protect the new city.

9. London should work the oysters, never the game(!) +2 commerce per turn. Shields will come after the growth from the irrigated river plains. Micromanage after growth!

1. OK but we now have a tech that can be traded just as well (or better than) as CoL. Some one will have CoL pretty soon as it always happens.

2. I noticed the proximity to Inca capitol and the jungle tile where we would have to place a city to get the Iron is not going to grow fast. We can use that settler else where.

3. Yes we do. We should have horses in our border when York expand.

4. Let me try to explain my thinking;
i. We need as many workers as possible in the early game for this map.
ii. So I would like to make a 4 turn warrior+worker from Hastings for a while
a. chop the game and irrigate it-> 3 fpt+ 1 spt
b. Irrigate lamb-> 3 fpt+ 1 spt
c. Getting water to Hasting should give two more irrigated tiles->2fpt+1spt
d. We should have access to one of the goats-> 2 fpt+ 2spt(w/o mined)
Therefore 5 citizens can have +4 fpt and 7 spt minus (-)corruption. At least 5.
iii. This should give us 4 turn Warrior/Worker factory. Am I thinking wrong?
iv. Using just the 2 workers who are choping the forest, it will take about 20 turns without roading. Add the other worker following the Settler to the gang and thing will move quickly.

5. I am glad you recommended it. I've lost the sling too many times in the past. Now on, I will be using this on critical games. Thanks.

6. AI usually do not go for Lit. (I think) It should be a monopoly tech. But in case I am wrong, I apologies.

7 & 8. Yes.

9. See comment 4.i.a. Of course we will lose the two shields if we ever need to use it for London. But a mine build by the army of workers can help. :mischief:

I look forward to seeing how things will workout.;)

@ Team

If we do not have a land connection to "Barbarian" land, we are going to have to do this all by our self. This mean we will need to take over a large portion of this Continent. Any AI not researching got to go.

Any AI not researching got to go.Any AI preventing us from progress got to go. Prime candidate: Inca with 2-3 luxuries.

Regarding Hastings, I still strongly prefer barracks over granary. We will "soon" build swords instead of warriors. We need to kill the barbarians in the NW to fill the area with our cities. More cities equals more free units equals power. And we don't want AI units wandering thru our territory all the time - too risky.

And I have the ugly feeling that the "barbarians" have a big continent for themselves to settle and develop.

I think we should treat this Barb Civ as a Super Science Civ.
Any tech any civ learn, they get it free. It can build any thing and probably faster than us. My concern is with all the warring ahead, should we not get some culture going to prevent flipping? or are we going to raize the Barb Cities.

As for the grainary in Hastings, it is upto more experience AA mongers to decide to keep it or switch to a barracks. That City has the potential to grow fast either way. AA mongering is some thing I am hoping to learn.

I do agree that we need more land and good land at that. By the way, all capitals have rank of 1 and the Inca Cap is also close, So it would have low corruption. Actually since we settle after others, we may see corroption in London. :rolleyes:

@The_Godfather: I asked for a 24 hour "got it" message and we didn't hear from you for more than 2 days. In fact: we never ever heard from you, nor did you react on the pm I sent you.

Please report asap or you will be skipped/removed from the team.

PS: I see he has not been online since May 1st. Thus I declare him skipped and Tone is next.

Tone (up next)
tao
Dbear
Furiey
Htadus (just played)
The_Godfather (skipped)

Just got my internet back after 5 days-moving can be hell sometimes. I doubt whether I can do anything for 48 hours as I have some reading to do and no time tonight. Please skip/swap me as appropriate as I'm sure you would like someone to get this moving quickly.

I'm away this weekend and will be back Monday.

@Tone: How about we swap position? I will play either this evening or tomorrow the latest.

Htadus--one of the reasons I wanted to build York on the other side of the river was to avoid cultural pressure. I'm thinking the only way to beat the barbs is a massive invasion of the capital and destroy it along with its Tech Thief wonder.

The problem in my games is I try to do a bit of everything--tech, culture, military--and don't specialize very well. This is looking more and more like an always-war game.

Summary:
Canterbury at the goats and Coventry N towards Sumeria founded. Traded for mathematics and map making; will learn literature next turn. We receive wines and spices for 16 more turns. Horses connected, 2 barracks next turn.

Pre-turn assessment:
I am very unhappy that we are neither building units to defend our settlers and cities nor are preparing (by building barracks or connecting horses) to do so. This must change asap.

0: 1500bc: already played

1: 1475bc: mm London, switch Hastings to barracks, mm
send worker to colleagues, explore

2: 1450bc: York b temple s barracks, explore into Inca and Byzantine territory territory

IBT Barbarians sabotage production in Hastings :(

3: 1425bc: Canterbury founded s warrior

IBT Inca start Colossus, Barbarians Great Lighthouse

4: 1400bc: workers work, warriors explore

IBT our warriors are pushed out

5: 1375bc: London b settler s worker; I decide to send the settler towards Sumeria
Inca has lux for sale and I strike a deals:
Inca give mathematics, wines, spices, 6g for polytheism, 3gpt
we can now go 0% lux at pop 5; literature down to 6 turns at 100% research

IBT York's border expand and we claim another bg from Inca; Barbarians start Oracle

6: 1350bc: workers work, warriors explore Inca territory

IBT Inca ask us to leave

7: 1325bc: London b worker s settler; Coventry founded s warrior; continue exploring Inca, Byzantine
strike another deal:
Byzantines give map making, 37g for polytheism, philosophy
Inca give 80g, worker for map making

8: 1300bc: Canterbury b warrior s barracks
Inca know code of law

IBT news about horses connected; Inca push us out again, but by now we know their territory pretty well

9: 1275bc: at pop 6, London needs 10% lux

10: 1250bc: workers work

Post-turn thoughts:
Next turn worker can start bringing irrigation towards the Hastings sheep. We should also irrigate towards thr lambs NE of Nottingham, which hopefully will be claimed by the temple. The is a worker in York to mine and road the next bg.
I intended to have the warrior E of York make another exploration via the Inca mountain. I mined the iron befor roading to allow us building more warriors.

The settler IMHO should go (escorted by one of the Canterbury warriors) to the coastal jungle river tile S-S-SE of Canterbury. We can reduce lux once London has popped the settler!

Technology-wise I am not at all sure about where to go. As you see, we could easily trade for techs. Next turn, we (hopefully) get a monopoly on literature, but IMHO it is "worthless". We do not intend to build libraries now, and it will not buy us one of the important government techs. It would have been much much better to research towards monarchy. Should we do it now? Probably the best choice.

Sould we spend 41g to build an embassy with the Maya? Once start fighting the Inca (and we will do it sooner rather than later), Maya are an ideal alliance: Located on the other side of the Inca, they hopefully will not capture any of the towns and resources we want. What about the Sumerians?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_BC1250_01.SAV (The save.)

Tone (up next; swapped with tao)
Dbear
Furiey
Htadus
The_Godfather (skipped)
tao (just played; swapped with Tone)

The problem in my games is I try to do a bit of everything--tech, culture, military--and don't specialize very well. This is looking more and more like an always-war game.

I have the same habit.:( I start all my XOTM with culture in mind and end up doing different things. This will be a good learning experience.

Some more thoughts:

1. IMHO we should research monarchy full speed next. If the AIs learn it before we do, try to throw in literature to trade for it.

2. Otherwise we should use literature to renew the lux deal in 15 turns. In the hope that Inca build us a nice Wonder in Cuzco.

3. Meanwhile continue to settle, hopefully filling all empty spots before the Barbarian Uprising starts. And more cities mean more free upkeep and we can create a bunch of specialists if needed.

4. We should establish a few key embassies. Netherlands and Maya?

5. Obviously, we should not build The Great Library. But it may be a good idea to switch Canterbury from barracks to temple and then Palace pre-build for either Sun Tzu's of Leo's.

Thanks for the swap, tao :goodjob: Got it now!

I agree on the next location for a city. I'll also place a settler by the cow in that area as a priority if I can get there first.

We don't want to build too many warriors if we are going to go for Monarchy as we can't research and build up cash for upgrades, can we? Perhaps a couple of chariots from Hastings whilst it remains on 4spt. If HBR comes up we can trade for it to upgrade them.

I'd like to see some workers around York as this will be a real powerhouse but I guess at the moment we need settlers out of London. I do want to get that Iron roaded soon though; 10 turns to mine it and another 6 to road it is not going to lead to a quick war with the Incans. Our lux deal runs out in 15 turns so maybe getting a second worker on that iron to speed up the roading will allow us to upgrade a few warriors and take a lux (Cuzco?) soon afterwards. I was thinking about using lit as a bargaining tool for alliances but in 15 turns it may not be so useful. I'll use it to trade for other techs if they become available at non-monopoly prices.

Re future alliances: I agree with getting the Maya with us. Sumeria is more of a problem. They will be attacking the towns we want and so I would suggest that we don't want to ally with them. We will have to watch for the Incans getting Sumeria on their side so it's a bit tricky. Maybe we can decide later. I'm tempted to build the embassy with the Maya now though.

Finally a policy check: We are not in a position to defend ourselves against the iron states of Byzantine or Sumeria. If I get a demand for tribute do I give in or start building spears if/when they declare? In this position I would normally cave in to cash demands but not give up techs unless they are widely known, but that is sometimes a risking game to play whilst you are still developing.

Anyway, build warriors and head for Monarchy. I'll play tomorrow evening.

I too think we need the iron hill roaded as soon as possible. It would have been better if we connected it before mining. At 60g per swordman upgrade, we better build up our tressury if we are going to continue building warriors.

Assuming Tao is right and Lit is useless, we should trade it for the first available tech and trade Lit around to others to get all the money they have.

For Cities without fresh water, should we build them tight CXXC format? All we need is 6 workable squires at first.

I too think we need the iron hill roaded as soon as possible. It would have been better if we connected it before mining. At 60g per swordman upgrade, we better build up our tressury if we are going to continue building warriors.I think that it was correct to mine it first as we still need settler escorts and cheap MPs for at least another 6-8 turns (although personally I would have mined and roaded the bgs first). The comment was linked to my thought that I really would like a couple more workers. Our current stock cannot keep up with the pace of development.

BTW I believe that tao's comment re the value of Lit was about the tech offering us nothing towards development, as we are not going to build Libraries in the near future. It will still hopefully be a monopoly tech, but nowhere near as valuable as Monarchy and as such we should not give it away for just anything.

Ok. Being a poor tech trader, I hope to learn how you determine which is a good trade? Too often, I find the AI do not want to give you anything good after the first tier of techs. How do you get good deals?

When are we planning to go on the offensive? How many units should we take and are we going to rush units? How many defensive units should we have in each frontline cities? I usually leave one defender and have gotten into trouble in the past. That is why I usually never go to war in AA.:(

I would like to wait until Inca build a wonder or we can attack other cities until their wonder is complete.

I am all for building workers. This map and our location begs for more workers. There are several hills if we mine should give us 3 spt in despot.

We should only bluff a demand if have any intentions of going to war with the AI and will not affect our current plans. If sumaria makes demands and we are determine to go to war with Inca, we should pay. Personally, sumaria is just as good of a target as Inca. Do they have any lux? Have you guys succesfully been at war with two Civs in AA? Sorry for all these questions.;)

Sorry for not playing-I've not been well and so although being off work hs given me plenty of time to play, staring at the screen has been hurting my eyes and giving me bad headaches.

I can now play tonight though.

Set played. Not a lot to report except that we have a lot more warriors!

1250 (0)
Switch Canterbury from rax to temple as suggested and press enter.

IBT
Lit>Monarchy (35 turns!)
London: settler>settler
York: rax>warr
Hastings: rax>chariot
(Sumeria has built the Oracle and is now building MoM)

1225 (1)
settler starts long journey south towards the fish. warrior from Canterbury heads there as protection.
Warriors explore.

IBT
Various nations warriors head north-west of our capital-barb hunting?
Coventry: warrior>warrior
(Dutch have built Colossus-various wonder build changes including the barbs building the GLHouse)

1200 (2)
zzz

IBT
York: warr>warr
(Incans now know HBR)

1175 (3)
Up lux to 10% again as London grows.

1150 (4)
zzz

IBT
2 Mayan warriors head for Canterbury. It could be innocent but best to be prepared...
Incan worker moves onto iron mountain-no sign yet that the city is connected to the rest of their empire though.
London: settler>settler.
York: warr>warr

1125 (5)
Warrior in Hastings moves to support the one in Canterbury. Warrior from London moves towards Hastings and new warrior in York moves towards London. This means keeping lux at 10% for one more turn but better safe than sorry!
New settler heads south and the other settler is in position by the fish site.

IBT
Mayans don't attack!
Hastings: chariot:warr

1100 (6)
Establish Warwick (worker)
With warrior movement completed, reduce lux back to 0% and up research to 80%.
Send reg warr from York south to meet up with the settler heading towards the cows.

IBT
York: warr>warr
Coventry: warr>cat

1075 (7)
Up lux again.

IBT
Hastings: warr>warr

1050 (8)
zzz

IBT
London: settler>settler
York: warr>settler

1025 (9)
Reduce lux.

IBT
Hastings: warr>warr
Three civs now know CoL but I suggest we wait for others to know HBR before trading Lit.

1000 (10)
settler and warrior close to sothern cow now. Just started to road the iron with a second worker just reached the tile.

I've not moved the settler close to London. I was going to move it N-NW-NW of Hastings and use the fish for food.

Settler in York? This can be switched if you want but tao suggested filling the land and we can cream off a settler IMO.

I didn't go for max research as we need the cash to upgrade some of those warriors-right?


Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_BC1000_01.SAV)

Dbear (up next)
Furiey
Htadus
The_Godfather (skipped)
Tone (just played)
tao

@Tone
Does rax stand for Barracks?
What do you mean by cream off a settler?

If we settle all the, then the intrusions will stop except for melicious purposes.

Does rax stand for Barracks?Yes!
What do you mean by cream off a settler?Sorry. Just an expression I use sometimes. I mean that with our lack of luxes we cannot afford to let any population get too high before it becomes a waste, as we would either have to increase lux for more than 2 turns in every four or we would hire a
specialist. I think a settler will be better than either of these choices but a worker would also be useful. It is not too late to change this as there is only 5 shields in the bin. The next player should feel free to do what they think is best.

If we settle all the, then the intrusions will stop except for melicious purposes.Yes, but even more importantly it will stop barb camps appearing in our backyard. As tao says, we don't really want this when the uprising comes.

After am extremely busy week in the office, I learned that sgotm9 is over. ;)

Thus I am free to funnel my effort in commenting on this game. Be prepared.
I am very unhappy with the temple in Canterbury. We have no need at all for it now. I would switch it to barracks NOW.
I would NOT build a settler in York while we can still build vet warriors in 2 turns. Build warriors NOW.
I am very unhappy with 80% research. We have lots of money. Go 100% while London is pop 5, 10% lux, 90% research while London is pop 6.
We should MINE the Nottingham hills to speed our temple build.
If and where we build temples, consider pop rushing to finish faster.
Shouldn't we build a temple or even better a library instead of a catapult in Coventry to counter Sumeria's culture?
I would not trade literature around now, but wait until our lux deal with the Incas is due in 5 turns.
Once hbr is known to most civs, I would be willing to pay for it - or make a trade giving money - in order to allow building horsemen.
We want a Great Wonder (wishful thinking: Pyramids) in Cuzco before we attack the Inca. They have 3 luxuries and we want them.

Obviously, we should not build The Great Library. But it may be a good idea to switch Canterbury from barracks to temple and then Palace pre-build for either Sun Tzu's of Leo's.I am very unhappy with the temple in Canterbury. We have no need at all for it now. I would switch it to barracks NOW.Come on, tao. Make up your mind. I was only following your directions! At least have the good grace to recognise this.

Other issues:

Warriors. Why do you want so many? Are you intending to use them for upgrades. If so where do we get the cash from? (It is not vanilla!) We are close to our unit limit, Hastings is still pumping out vet warriors and we need settlers. Switch York back if you want but let us in on the reasons behind why you want so many warriors. Otherwise I still think that a settler is better value in the long run. BTW as I said in my post, I did not do 100% research as I was assuming that the cash was meant for upgrading. If this is not the case then I (we?) need to know what you have in mind.

Nottingham hills should be mined but it is a slave doing the work and mining would take 24 turns. The native workers will be able to do the mining once they finished around York and thus will not lose a turn once the road is built.

Please switch the cat build to whatever you want. Culture is fine by me.

Good point on lit trading. I was not suggesting that we trade it now anyway but it is certainly a good idea to wait for the lux renewal, if we are waiting for a Wonder build from the Incans before attacking.

Come on, tao. Make up your mind. I was only following your directions! At least have the good grace to recognise this.You caught me on this one - I didn't even remember my previous idea. :blush:

Upgrading warriors cost 60g each. And with a monopoly monarchy, we should be able trade for all the AIs' cash and upgrade quite a number of them. I would like to attack Inca with say 1-2 spears, 6-8 swords, maybe some horsemen. And if we wait for Cuzco to finish a Wonder and for the expiration of our next lux deal (i.e. 20 more turns) we can build all the cash we need later. And we will be much much better off once we are in monarchy. Therefore I spoke against 80% research. And in monarchy, we can use 3 mp. Warriors are cheap and may - if fire need arises - be upgraded later in the game, e.g. to fight naval invasions.

Fair point. Full speed ahead on research!

I'll be gone Memorial Day (29th). Will be back late that night and see if Tao's orders to switch Coventry to a lib and Canterbury to rax are advisable.

Ok, took a look at the game and I have several questions:

1. Tone mentioned moving the settler 1N, 2nw of Hastings. I disagree as that land will always be ours. I think it best to colonize the south, before the Inca push that way. Problem, with no roads it will take a long time to get there.

2. Related to question 1--cities are too far apart, there is land that can never be used. The above statement for the city placement would alleve that for the short term.

3. Canterbury does not need a temple, but Coventry and Nottingham need culture badly. They are in great danger from flipping.

4. @ 80% science, we run -1 cashflow, 20 turn research. @ 100%, we will run -7 cashflow for 17 turns. Is it worth it to burn up all that money to save 3 turns?

5. Should London and York stay with the settler builds or switch? I say we need to beat the Inca to the south. The northwest peninsula will always be ours.

Ok, took a look at the game and I have several questions: ...

ad1: We HAVE to settle the NW to stop barb camps putting up and in consequence to stop AI units roaming thru our territory. The important point is to keep London on 4-turn settler production by micromanaging every 2 turns and adjust lux/science! The current settler however may be better placed 3 SW of Warwick (supposing the southern settler is heading for the tile SW of the cow.

Next I would settle 1N, 2nw of Hastings, the NE end of the peninsula, the NW end, and on its west coast. You may also use a unit to block the tiles - e.g. 3SW of Canterbury - for AI settlers.

ad2: We will build libraries to push research and close the gaps. And the gaps are small enough to prevent the AIs from going in between (or block potential site with units - see above).

ad3: Nottingham is already working on a temple (pop-rush is an option), Coventry I also suggested to get culture asap.

ad4: Yes,definitely it is. Because being first gets all the cash back. Don't research half-heartedly.

ad5: London yes, York no (see previous post).

Good luck for your turns.

2 questions.

1. When is the Barbarian uprising and how do you know?
2. Do the AI's have alot of gold? My home net is down rt now, so I did not get to look at the save.

Comment:
We should be building more workers and need some spears to defend outpost cities when we go on the offensive. Other wise we will have a defense problem.

1. 1000BC: Turned science to 100% as instructed. Canterbury switched to rax. York switched to warrior. Settler moves along Canterbury road, heading s of Warwick. Builds in Nottingham and Coventry switched to libs. Warrior from York moves along road to Nottingham. Warrior from Canterbury moves w to mountain, to keep an eye on the coast and prevent primitives.

2. 975BC: York warrior-->worker. York will increase pop at the same time. Canterbury rax-->chariot. Production in Nottingham is sabotaged. Worker moves to horse hill to mine, speeding along lib. Iron hill roaded. Mayan warriors are in the way, so warrior and settler s of Warwick moves around them. Increase slider to 10% to prevent London rioting. Micromanage London to pop the settler next turn.

3. 950BC: London pops settler. Turn slider back to 0%, science 100%.
Hastings warrior-->warrior. Men in white sighted to nw. warrior and chariot from Hastings sent to deal with them.

4. 925BC: York worker-->worker. Even by optimizing, York can only produce 9 shields. Barbarians build the Pyramids. Worker near Coventry moves to forest for chop. Chariot makes clean kill on primitive.

5. 900BC: Hastings warrior-->galley. Newcastle and Oxford founded.
Newcastle starts warrior, Oxford starts rax.

6. 875BC: Realize I was stupid in connecting the iron. :o I send a warrior over to remove the road. York worker-->chariot. Warrior moves toward Newcastle. Settler pair moving 1n, 2nw of Hastings as planned.

7. 850BC: lux deal runs out, trade lit to Incas for spice + wine + 90. London settler-->settler. Warwick worker-->worker. Canterbury chariot-->chariot. Trade lit + 105 to Netherlands for law. With the additional towns, we aren't running as bad a deficit. Liverpool built.

8. 825BC: We can now build the FP. York switched to FP. Last turn I joined a worker to Nottingham to reach pop 4, so I could whip 2 for the lib.

9. 800BC: Nottingham lib-->rax.

10. 775BC: Nottingham flips to Sumeria anyway &#(*$@^! :gripe: And with that goes our horses. Do we wish to start a war with Sumeria to get Nottingham back and take out Lagash? I move troops in position.


There is a settler near Liverpool who should move sw to build a town. The galley in Liverpool should be used to transport settlers along the south coast. Sorry about the mess-up with the iron, workers are mining it again to correct. We are 7 turns from monarchy. Next turn, join a worker to Coventry and whip for library. Hopefully it won't have the same results as with Nottingham. York's build is messed up now since we now don't have enough cities for the FP, change it to what you will.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_BC0750_01.SAV

Htadus: It happens when 2 civs reach the Middle Ages. You will get a notice of 'massive uprising' near somewhere. That is why we are building towns everywhere so it doesn't hit us. The slow way to find everyone's gold is to use F4 and open diplomatic relations. The fast way is to use CivAssist II. Incas have the most gold, and they are also the only ones to have HB.

I've got it. I won't be able to look until tonight though.

Looking at the save.

1. York: change to Library until we can build the Forbidden Palace again, or do we want to build it anywhere else?

2. We complete Monarchy in 6 or so turns and revolt immediately via the big picture. Currency next?

3. Trade Monarchy round for loads of gold to upgrade our Warriors and HBR.

4. Hastings is building a Galley but has a Barracks sitting idle, better to build land units.

5. Settler W would place the city to match up with one on the NW tip of the peninsula to get the Whales and another on the NE tip to get the rocks. We could then stick a final city in there where the Marsh currently is once that is cleared. Otherwise where else to Settle? The hill NE of the desert goats on the coast near Ceasarea?

6. I'll probably change Oxford to a Worker to improve the land round there or it'll take ages to build a Barracks the will take ages to build Warriors. Warwick may be better with a Worker too.

7. Coventry: join Worker and whip Library

8. Horses: do we want a war with Sumeria now? They will have claim on those horses as soon as Nottingham expands. We could build a colony and get a few horse builds going until then, it should at least allow us to revolt to Monarchy until we have to do anything.

I'll play tomorrow evening.

Researched Monarchy and got 6 turns of Anarchy with 1 more turn to go.

750 BC (Turn 0):. Change York to Library for Forbidden Palace; realise if I join a Worker I can rush the Library now in Coventry – do so; change Oxford and Newcastle to Workers; with some troop juggling I don not have to raise lux.

IBT: Inca Warriors head home; Canterbury: Warrior>Worker; Coventry: Library>Temple; Maya start and complete the Great Lighthouse in Chichen Itza (Great Leader?); Byzantines and Dutch start the Great Library, Barbarians start the Great Wall.

730 BC (Turn 1): Found Dover s Warrior; Settler and Warrior head off in Galley; change York back to Forbidden Palace (25 turns); Coventry’s flip probability is still around 2% to 7% per turn.

IBT: Maya want us to leave a patch of territory that has expanded over one of our Warriors – we comply; a Mayan settler and escort enter our territory from the S.

710 BC (Turn 2): Unload Settler; prepare to blockade the Mayan Settler.

IBT: Mayan Settler turns round, Sumerian Settler and Sword escort enter from the North; Hastings: Galley>Spear;

690 BC (Turn 3): found Brighton s Warrior; drop science to 80% with Monarchy in 2; 1st galley continues round coast, new galley goes to pick up Settler built next turn.

IBT: Sumerians continue in, Maya come back; London: Settler>Settler; Canterbury: Worker>Warrior; Newcastle: Worker>Harbour; Oxford: Worker>Worker;

670 BC (Turn 4): Byzantines have Construction but we have nothing to sell them; Monarchy in 1.

IBT: Discover Monarchy, revolt via the big picture and get 7 turns of Anarchy, revolt again; Sumerians start Great Library;

650 BC (Turn 5): We have 6 turns of Anarchy, I managed to stop any cities rioting; Currency in 50 turns; Coventry expands over the Horses, change Hastings Spear to Chariot; Accidentally sell Theodora Monarchy for Construction, 79 gold and 1gpt when checking trades; sell Inca Construction for 269 gold and Horseback Riding clearing them both out; nobody else has anything.

IBT: Maya and Sumerians move in further.

630 BC (Turn 6): Civ crashes to desktop with no warning just after the IBT, I reboot and reload from autosave; block Maya and Sumerian Settlers; found Norwich leaving 1 site on the peninsula that needs a marsh clearing;

IBT: Mayan and Sumerian Settlers try to get around the blockade.

610 BC (Turn 7):: Inca have Republic; Workers work, it’s slow going in Anarchy.

IBT: Sumerians and Maya turn round.

590 BC (Turn 8): Galleys explore, Warriors block.

IBT: Maya start the Great Library, Byzantines start the Hanging Gardens

570 BC (Turn 9): There’s an Incan Galley moving round the coast, start moving troops to block the last city site.

IBT: Maya and Sumerians start the Hanging Gardens, I’ve not idea what they traded Byzantines to get it as they had nothing.

550 BC (Turn 10): Galleys explore, Warrior moves to help block last peninsula site.

Treasury: 400 gold, +1 gpt, Currency in 44 (Anarchy, 1 turn remaining)

Post-turn: We come out of Anarchy next turn. There is a Worker that has started to connect the Iron, complete in 5 turns allowing for the speed increase once we’re out of Anarchy, I started this thinking we may want to upgrade some Warriors as we have 400 gold. All cities will need adjustment once we come out of Anarchy. I started Worker builds in many of the outlying cities as they badly need improvement and it’s slow with all that Marsh/Jungle. We need to block the last city site, a Warrior on the Jungle NW of the Marsh and another 2SE on the hill should do it, then get a Worker clearing the Marsh.

Htadus (up next)
The_Godfather
Tone
tao
DBear
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_BC0550_01.SAV)

Weekend has started and I finally find the time to look at the game details.

@DBear:
Obviously you wrecked the settler factory. Was it just a small error (sometimes also happens to me) or do you need practice? In the latter case I strongly suggest that you repeat your turns on your own again and again until you maintain the 4 turn settler popping. This will greatly improve your play.

And I don't think it was good to disconnect the iron - too many worker turns wasted.

And I don't think using 2 citizens to pop-rush a library is a good move. It creates too much unhappiness, whereas using 1 citizen for a temple is fine IMHO.

And please put the updated roster at the end of your future turn reports. Thank you.

@Furiey:
Bad luck to get so many anarchy turns. I didn't look yet at the save.

My ideas on how to continue:

Obviously we have to put units on the 2 remaining city sites asap: 3SW of both Hastings and Canterbury.

We need about 7 swords plus 1-2 horses plus 1 spear (my suggestion) to attack the Inca. This IMHO has very high priority, as our lux deal expires in 5 turns and without the luxes, we will have to raise lux tax significantly (as the vet mps are attacking). It will be a few more turns but the good news is that the Inca have no iron connected yet to their main cities. But time is running out! Attack as soon as we are ready. Cuzco will give us (via temple of Artemis) the incredibly valuable fast territory expansion of newly captured/founded cities and spices.

As we will conquer Artemis, we don't need the temple build in Coventry, but should build barracks instead. The lambs must be irrigated!

5 turns to complete the road on the Iron and 5 turns left of the lux deal which we won't renew as we'll declare soon. We already have a couple of Horses, that leaves just the spear to be built and the swords to be upgraded. How many swords can we upgrade for 400 gold? Will it be enough?

I am just checking during my lunch hour. So I have not seen the save file.
With 400g we can have 6 swords or if I can save another 20g, we can upgrade 7 warriors.

It appears I will be initiating the attack, :) so should I DOW before entering Cusco land? Since this is our first war, i think this is the best way. Or should I try to get them to declare? Go next to Cusco and fortify/park and refuse to leave or give boot orders to their intruders (if any)? Let me know. I always DOW from outside.

Is one spear enough? I am used to taking 2-3. Are the perimeter Cities have defenders?

I will post again after looking at the save.

As Inca have no iron (yet), 1 spear is enough; we can uild another one "later". And yes, I would declare before enterimg their territory.

QSC details are up here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/results/sgotm_qsc_results.php). We have the highest Warrior count although we are low in cities and tech.

Got it and played 4 turns and went to bed. I will finish tonight and post. I am going to drop science. I have been doing 90% sci at -10gpt. No body has any gold. So I am dropping science to break even. Please respond within next 4 hours with any advise for me to use. Thanks.

It's 01:37 here so you won't get much from me tonight as I should be asleep by now. We need gold to upgrade the Warriors to Swords so if you have to drop science to get it you will have to do so. We do not want to delay in the attack as they will then also have Swords.... tao is in Germany (an hour ahead of me) so if you want comments from him you'll have to wait until tomorrow. If you want more you can always attach a save or pics and wait.

@Team.
We can learn currency in 10 turns and break even. Also we can sell HBR to Sumeria(23g), May(11g) and Dutch (5g). Only Sumeria has horses and others 2 know HBR. We have 380g now. If I can get all we will have 419g. I can adjust science to get the last gold to upgrade 7 warriors.

Tomorrow just started for me. ;)

I would also suggest to sign-up an alliance against Inva with Maya. That will force them to split their troops and Maya are unlikely to capture any cities we want.

I did not get to attack Cusco. :sad: We have enough units to take it next turn. I did not want to attack across river, so I moved units to the forest. We need to keep an eye on Oxford and Byzentians. Lets claim them Temples.:cool:

550 BC(turn 100): Move the fortified warrior from mntn to the jungle tile 3SW of Hastings.
IBT: Barbarians entered Middle ages. Sumerian and Mayan Settlers and escorts leave.

530 BC(Turn 1): We are a Monarchy. Currency in 8 turns at best. Sci to 90%. -10gpt. MM: London:Settler in 4,growth in 2. Coventry: Rax in 8, gr in 4. Hastings:Horse in 3, gr in 2. Canterbury: War in 2, gr in 2. L'pool: Rax in 22, gr in 3. York: FP in 17, gr in 2. Oxford: changed worker to Spear. We need defense. Galleys explore, War explore possible uprising site in Dutch land. Worker and slave mining hill NE of London. Goal: 2 turn Swords.
IBT:Zzzz

510 BC(Turn 2): Secure 2 potential sites for settling with 2 reg warriors. War and two gallys explore.
IBT:Zzzz

490 BC(Turn 3): Canterbury:War>War, Warwick:Worker>Worker. 2 workers cleard jungle N of Warwick, one roading other mining. New worker roading. Trade HBR to Summaria for 23g, maya for 11g and Dutch for 5g. Currency in 14 turns at 40% and 5gpt. Moving War to York after increasing Lux.
IBT: Zzzz

470 BC(Turn 4):Hasting:Horse>Spear, It is a 3 turn Horse or 2 turn Spear Ranch. We need a spear badly.
IBT: Inca building H.Gardens. We lost lux. Two workers are mining the goat hill.

450 BC(Turn 5):London:Settler>Spear(no rax). Canterbury: War>Swode. Dover: Worker>War(no rax). Upgraded 4 warriors at York. 3 more will be there next turn. I did not move MP's to York in time. Moving MP from New castle to Oxford for def. Lux to 50% for 1 turn.
IBT: Byz built GLib. Dutch cascade to H.Garden.

430 BC(Turn 6): Hastings:Spear>Horse, Brighton and Norwick: War>Spear, Upgraded 3 war. Not enough money for embassy w/Maya. turn off Science, drop lux to 30%.
IBT: Zzzz....3 Civs have Currency. Including Inca.

410 BC(Turn 7): Change Canterbury Sword to Spear. A Inca ship is near two cities. Have to wait for the spear before DOW.
IBT:Zzzz

390 BC(turn 8): London: Spear>Spear. Next turn we DOW.
IBT:Zzzz

370 BC(Turn 9): We declare on Inca. Changed London Spear to Barracks since a worker will chop a forest next. Move 2 spears, 2 horses and 7 swords next to Cuzco.
IBT: A single spear is heading our way.

350 BC(turn10): Got Maya alied against Inca for Construction. Moved the force accross the river to the forest. Brought out Chariot from London and Horse from Hastings to London. Barracks will be done in London next.

The_Godfather (up next)
Tone
tao
Dbear
Furiey
Htadus (just played)

Has Godfather contacted anyone yet?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_BC0350_01.SAV

Has Godfather contacted anyone yet?

Has anyone contacted The_Godfather yet?

Has anyone contacted The_Godfather yet?I sent him an email without response. And his profile shows that he has not been online since May 1. Therefore I declare him MIA until he reports back.

Therefore the roster is:

Tone (up next)
tao
Dbear
Furiey
Htadus (just played)
The_Godfather (MIA)

Ok-got it.

I've just taken a very quick look. I'm looking forward to the battles but no cats???

A bit of mm with our population is in order. Do we really need all those spears? I'd like to change the three rax spear builds to horses or swords. Is that OK?

Where exactly was the Incan galley? I guess that it's just a settler plus escort but I should look out for it just in case.

The Oxford spear-is it for pillaging their iron?

Once we get our finances back in order do we keep on zero research and look to trade for currency, maybe in a PT with the Incans? Speaking of which, what are our goals in this war? Get the northern three towns and then sue for peace once the alliance runs out?

Anyway I've got to go to work now so I'd better sign off.

The Inca boat was sitting W of Oxford and moved SE out of sight.
The spear was originaly for defense, but IS on his way for pillaging. Just like their spear. Sorry about no cats. I took Tao's recommendation too literally. I should have built a cat or two. By the way, I think they have Iron!! Before I DOW I looked at the diplomacy screen and I do not think I saw the resources tab, just lux. Does it not mean we both have same resources? I am not too sure.

Yes they do have Iron, the source by Corihuayrachina has been connected - the road is visible.

you are correct Htadus that if the dipolmacy tab is not shown then we have the same resources, either by trade or otherwise. In this case you can see the road on the iron, if our map was not up to date, you could right click on the tile and look at the terrain info to see what the commerce value was for the iron tile, if it has been roaded you get the extra commerce for the road.

I would also prefer the Spears switched to something more useful. There are also some clowns that need to either go back to work or become other specialists, they could start research again.

As for our aims, Cuzco will give Spices, Tiwanaku Wine (but it's a bit out on a limb), the Dyes city would also be nice, but we haven't got anything resembling an offensive force down there and will have to watch for an attack from that direction, and the 3 southern towns would fit in more with our territory. I think you'll have to play it by ear a bit and see what sort of resistance you come up against.

@Htadus. Thanks for the info. Oh, and don't apologise about the lack of cats. I know that not all players like them but I've played a couple of aggressive games recently and got used to having a stack of arty to help preserve my troops and go leader farming.

Thanks for the notification of the iron. I saw that it was connected to the town down there but the lack of iron on the diplo screen means that it is connected to the capital. That extra spear could be handy.

Thanks also for your response, Furiey. I wondered about the dyes but it will take a long time to connect these and they are miles away from our main thrust so I suspect that it would take a second front. I'm happy to play it by ear, I just don't like letting the side down by missing an agreed plan. I suspect that taking Cuzco and subsequent healing, plus repelling the initial Incan counter will take much of my time anyway. Swords are powerful but so sloooooow.

I think the speed is why I like fighting with Cavalry so much.

I notice we have a Settler waiting to Settle the last site on the coast, but the Worker clearing the Marsh for it has a long way to go. It may be worth bringing more Workers to help.

I think I should have made workers and cats instead of the last settler.

Originaly, I was going to estabish 2 cities, either side of the Marsh tile, until I realized Furiey wanted just one city located on the marsh tile, which is a good idea.

The spear heading to Inca was also going to pilage the lux tiles along with the iron since most likely Inca is trading them to others or may trade for alince against us. May be we should do the same at Cusco. Use one of the horses to pilage just 1 Spice tile. That way their rep will take a hit if they are currently trading Spice.

Well back to work:crazyeye:

never mind :o

I played out from where my turns ended
I'm not sure whether this means you played forward in parallel with the current player. If it does then please desist. You are not permitted to play ahead. Only the current active player moves the game forward.

Not a good start. I am in a period of reflection but so that you can share the misery...

350BC (0)
Lose some of the clowns and other mm issues. Also switch spears to horses, workers or warriors.

IT
Incan archer appears in the south, by Oxford. Cusco spear heads for horses
London: rax>sword
Hastings: horse>horse
Brighton: warrior>worker
Norwich: warrior>worker

330BC (1)
warriors from NW towns head south for mp duty in major towns.
warrior on auto-move; no no! we need mps in Liverpool and Hastings anyway.
Battle for Cuzco: using horses first for withdrawal chance
1st horse vs vet spear-loses but redlines spear.
2nd horse vs vet spear-withdraws after taking 1hp from spear.
1st sword vs reg spear-wins losing 1hp
2nd sword vs reg spear-redlined but victorious
3rd sword vs reg spear-does nothing.
4th sword vs reg spear-redlines spear but loses, leaving a 2/4 spear in defence
5th sword vs reg spear-flawless victory
6th sword vs 3hp spear-takes 1 hp from spear. No more fresh defenders but we have just one more attacker.
7th sword loses to a 2/4 spear and it becomes a 2/5 defender.
We are in trouble! 7 defenders (I think-I got a 'phone call at a bad point and I'm assuming that the last 3hp defender was a 3/4) of which 4 survived.

I move the London horse and York chariot within striking distance of Cuzco (with the reg spear protecting them), just in case the swords have some luck next turn but it looks pretty dire in the short term.

IT
archer redlines our reg spear by Oxford but loses and we have a 2/4 spear.
Incan spear moves onto horses hill
Barbs are building Sun Tzu

310BC (2)
Cuzco defenders have fully healed. I decide to try the 4/4 sword and see how my luck is. It loses and so I decide that it is best to withdraw.

(Turn unfinished)

Sorry folks.

:eek: I thought that stack would be enough, bad luck Tone. Sounds like just taking and holding Cuzco will be all we can do for now.

I couldn't even muster the troops to take Cuzco...

310BC (2) continued
I use the horse to try and deal with the spear on the horse hill. It kills the spear losing just 1hp. Withdrawal from Cuzco starts.

IT
Another archer approaches Oxford. Oxford spear is only just about to heal from the last attack and so will go nowhere yet.
Warwick: warrior>worker

290BC (3)
Wounded are back on home soil. No brass bands are there to greet the survivors.

IT
Archer doesn't attack.
London: sword>sword
Canterbury: horse>sword
Dover: warrior>worker

270BC (4)
Canterbury horse goes to help defend Oxford and so allow spear to go pillaging.
Lux down to 20%. Upgrade warrior in York.
Send two workers to help clear that marsh for new town.

IT
Forbidden Palace built-now we can crank out more units.
York: FP>sword. by alternating between fp and forest we can get a sword every two turns. working the fp every turns gives a highly frustrating 14spt.
Oxford: worker>worker
Brighton: worker>harbour

250BC (5)
Spear heads out to pillage iron
Upgrade chariot

IT
Hastings: horse>horse
Norwich: worker>harbour
We lose our horses as Nottingham borders expand.

230BC (6)
Move troops to counter archer concentration in the south. We can do this now that a number of reg warriors have made their way from the provinces to Hastings and Canterbury.

IT
Maya kick out out warrior.
London: sword>sword (15spt by taking game
York: sword>sword
Coventry: horse>sword
Incans will talk but we haven't got what we want yet!

210BC (7)
Upgrade another warrior.
Horse attacks an archer in clear ground as it approaches Warwick. It loses 2hp but is victorious.

IT
The incans want to talk but I decline.
Our warrior in the south proves to be a magnet for Incan swords. The pied piper will attempt to lead them a merry dance.
Dover: worker>rax
The Incans are building Sun Tzu. Nooooooooooooooo!

190BC (8)
Sword buildup nearly complete but if the Incans have pikes...
Spear is one tile from the iron
southern warrior turns away from the swords but lands next to an archer. If it doesn't survive our pillaging spear will face at least 2 swords and 3 archers

IT
Incans move archer onto iron so I cannot even move there next turn. Our warrior is killed by the archer (just)
London: sword>sword.
York: sword>sword
Canterbury: sword>sword
Warwick:worker>worker
Oxford: worker>rax.
All known civs now have both currency and the Republic.

170BC (9)
I move our 8 swords within reach of Cuzco into foreign territory and send two spears as escorts. They are greeted by the sight of a defending vet pike. The horses remain behind as mps.
The spear by the iron fortifies as it cannot get onto the iron this turn.

I'm totally fed up after the complete failure of our attack. After this turn set, I replayed various attack options, such as using the swords first, and all failed. Also our pillaging spear was wounded before I could even get it out of our lands and now cannot get to the iron. We are now facing pikes and possibly MDIs with swords and spears. I wish that I'd built some cats. Maybe those rax builds should be converted to them.

I couldn't get a force together again in time and so I'm left with the option of attacking pikes in a city over the river next turn (not recommended) or moving onto the forest and then attacking the turn after. As this is affecting the next players turn though, I'll pass on the save a turn early for the next player to make that decision, get 11 turns in and hopefully to show me how to attack successfully. ;)

Feel free to change any builds you want to, tao.

Notes: I have a couple of horses in the south to counter archer attacks. York gets 30 shields every two turns by alternating between the fp and the forest tiles. BTW I was going to give London another mine so that it can be more efficient with its citizen placement and still maintain 15spt.

Signing off...


tao (up next)
Dbear
Furiey
Htadus
The_Godfather (MIA)
Tone (just tried to play)

the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_BC0170_01.SAV)

Tone, it is just a run of bad luck. I should have attacked before we had the spear. :(

May be we should get some cats going, even for defense. In the meanwhile, should we try to send unit to attack another city? They should concentrate defense at cusco. So other cities may have less defense.

I've just checked with Offa's Town Capture Simulator. 2 Horses, 7 Swords attacking 7 Spears (2 Vet, 5 Reg) fortified in a city only have a 6.6% chance of taking the city.

:eek: a 1 in 30 chance!!!!

I'm in two minds about an attack on Cuzco but I'm tempted to continue as

1. it will give us a sorely needed lux, plus free temples all round for a healthy happiness boost. (Plus relieve some cultural pressure.)

2. horses in 5 turns with the expansion of borders.

3. it will hurt the Incans badly

4. I think that many of their troops were drawn to the (now dead) warrior and the spear around their iron town and so now could be a good time to strike.

5. They will give us Currency for peace IIRC. This could be because of our alliance but what will they give if we can manage to take their capital?

OTOH it may still have a number of spears/pikes. I was hoping that not many were added to the four survivors but if there are 5 or 6 pikes in that city, we don't stand a chance with what we have at the moment.

Got it, but don't have time to look at ai now.

Summary:
We took Cuzco with ToA and spices after extremely heavy losses. We took Ollantaytambo with dyes. Now we rebuild our troops to finish the Inca (but for their last town to extort them)

Preturn:
I look at the save and our situation doesn't look very good - to say the least. Cuzco is defended by pikes, we don't have have horses anymore. I don't think our swords will capture a city defended by 4-6 pikes, i.e. we have to wait for enforcements. Thus the war will go on longer and therefore I decide to start research again.

0: 170bc: 20% science; currency in 4; capture Inca worker

1: 150bc: Inca is willing to give cirrency for peace, but we want more;
move our troops out of Inca territory

IBT Inca start Sun Tzu's in Cuzco; nice - they don't build units

2: 130bc: kill Inca archer on volcano

3: 110bc: science 10%, lux 30%

IBT Inca mi attacks our spear next to iron and dies; spear yellow

4: 90bc: we learn currency and enter Middle Ages; game crashes ??? darn PCs

5: 70bc: we send our SOD: 2 spears, 16 swords towards Cuzco; horses will follow next turn

6: 50bc: cross Cuzco river, 4 horses join
kill warrior at Oxford, archer at York

IBT arches dies attacking Oxford, mi kills our spear

7: 30bc: we attack Cuzco
sword redlines pike an dies
sword kills pike
sword dies, pike 4->3hp
sword dies, pike 4->3hp
sword dies, pike 4-3hp promotes
sword dies, pike 4->3hp
sword dies, pike3 promotes
sword dies, pike promotes to 4 hp
sword kills 4/5 pike
sword kills 3/4 pike
sword dies redlining 3/4 pike
sword dies redlining 3/5 pike
horse kill 2/4 mi
horse dies vs 1/4 pike, pike promotes
sword dies vs 1/5 pike
sword dies vs 1/5 pike :mad:
sword kills 1/ pike
horse dies vs 1/4 pike
sword kills 1/5 pike
horse dies vs. 1/5 pike and our stack is done :(
York horse dies vs. 1/5 pike :( and we are the loosers again

2 swords move next to Cuzco - lets pray for next turn

IBT mi kills our 4/4 sword in stack

8: 10bc: move troops towards Cuzco

4/4 sword vs 5 pike dies ; pike 3/5
4/4 sword kills 3 pike
4/4 sword dies vs 3/pike; pike 1/5
3/4 sword vs 4 mi wins down 1/4
4/4 sword from London kills 2/4 mi in the open making way for
4/4 horse from York dies vs 1/5 pike
2/4 sword kills 1/pike and we capture Cuzco with Temple of Artemis and spices [party]
9 resistors

9: 10ad: move troops towards Ollantaytambo

IBT Byzantine want 28g - I give in because we can't fight then now
Barbarians complete Sun Tzu's
galley lost, because I was careless

10: 30ad: still 9 resistors; we attack Ollantaytambo
4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear wins
4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear wins and promotes to 4/5 elite
4/4 horse vs 3/3 warrior wins
4/4 horse vs 3/3 archer wins and we capture Ollantaytambo with dyes, making 4 slaves

11: 50ad: move troops

post-turn thoughts:
I would not make peace now; we have the advantage over Inca and should continue pushing them. I want both their iron and their wines - I want all off it.

I leave some troops outside of Cuzco in case it flips and needs to be recaptured. We should starve it IMHO.

Dbear (up next)
Furiey
Htadus
The_Godfather (MIA)
Tone
tao (just played)

Excellent! That was one hard battle. With that many Pikes in the city it was a good decision to wait.

I agree to starve Cuzco, we do not want it flipping. While we have the advantage lets keep moving against Inca, if we leave it we'll be facing MI and possibly Knights.

edit: they won't give anything worthwhile for Peace anyway. Vilcas by our FP and the Iron city would close our territory as the next move and drop them down to 3 cities, these smaller cities may be more weakly defended as the Dyes city was. The Wine city will stretch us out a bit, but another lux would be good, we will obviously need to gather a few more troops for that. At least we will get Horses back when Cuzco expands. The more we can do before we are facing Knights the better.

Awsome job Tao. Thanks personnaly since I should have attacked before there were somany spears.

I too agree we should starve the city down. Can we build/ cash rush workers? Would not that reduce size too? How many swords did you build during this period?:goodjob:

Dbear (up next)
Furiey
Htadus
The_Godfather (MIA)
Tone
tao (just played)

DBear can you take it?

It'll be tomorrow night before I can look at it. Jeez, talk about a meat grinder.:eek:

tao :goodjob:

SGotM10--Team Tao:

0) 50AD--upgraded warriors to swords.

1) 70--London, Hastings and York build swords. Norwich harbor-->cat. Rush sword in Coventry. One citizen quelled in Ollantay. Where is that galley going? Send units toward Tiwanaku.

2) 90--One citizen quelled in Cuzco, worker created.

3) 110--The ToA expansion kicks in. Oxford rax-->sword.

4) 130--Ollontay expands. Dyes are roaded. Cuzco starved again. Sword 4 vs. Pike 4--pike 3. Sword 4 vs. Pike 3--pike 2. Horse 4 vs. Pike 3--horse retreats, no damage.

5) 150--Horse pillages iron near Cory. Sword 4 vs. spear 3--no damage, spear promo. Sword 4 vs. spear 4, sword redlined. Sword 4 vs. spear 3, Cory is taken with slaves.

6) 170--Incas send an archer near Cuzco horses. Sword 4 vs. archer 3, sword wounded, goes leet.

7) 190--Sword 4 vs. archer 4 in forest--sword makes clean kill.

8) 210--Grrrr, Cory flips back to Incas. Swordk 5 loses to spear 3 on hills. Sword 4 vs. spear 4 on hills, spear to 3. 7 Swords attack Tiwanaku. First sword does no damage vs. pike, pike goes leet. Second sword knocks him to 2, third sword redlines a pike 3. Fourth sword takes wounds but kills another pike 3. 5th sword kills the former leet. 6th sword kills redlined pike and takes Tiwanaku. We can get Engineering or mono from a treaty.

9) 230--Incan archer loses to Mayan javelin. Two civs are starting Knights Templar. Leet sword vs. spear 3 in Cory. Sword wounded, but wins. Horse 4 beats archer 4.

10) 250--Machu Picchu falls. Huamanga still has pike and archer left. Settler moves. Attack on Cory fails.

We can get Mono or Engineering in treaty. We are close if we offer all gold for both. Mayans have made treaty with Incas. Move settler to forest square between Cuzco and Tiwanaku, filling in a gap.

I haven't downloaded at the save yet, I'll do that later today and post a got it when I know I have it OK, but looks like good going, pity about Cory flipping back though. So we take Cory and Huamanga leaving Vilcas with no resources next to our Forbidden Palace to extort tech from in the Peace Deal. When that expires, goodbye Inca.

OK, I've now got it. We should be able to take Huamanga and have troops next to Vilcas. They have another city on one of the southern Islands so we can take all the cities on the mainland and leave that. We should get techs from Peace and not have to worry too much about cities flipping.

We're going to have to watch the Byzantines, they could be a problem in the future.

Summary: We have kicked the Inca off our continent and made Peace getting Fuedalism and Engineering, then swapping Engineering for Monotheism from Maya. Further trades are available now for Chivalry and Invention from any Civ and Theology from Byzantines. We have 3 luxes connected.

250 AD(Turn 0): Some MM in various cities to improve production and commerce without losing growth; the MM also stops the potential disorder in Canterbury.

IBT: Sumerians approach the gap in the N with a Settler; MI kills a Sword in Machu Picha; Archer from Humanga kills sword by the city, the Archer outside the city dies attacking another Sword; Maya unit goes home; London: Sword>Sword; resistance in Tiwanaka ends; York: Sword>Sword; Coventry: Sword>Sword; Norwich: Catapult>Catapult.

260 AD(Turn 1): kill Archer outside Humanga, sword 3/4; kill MI outside, Elite Sword 3/5; retreat 2 3/4 Swords by Humanga to heal for a turn, reinforcements will get there soon to take the city; move Settler in position, can settle next turn.

IBT: Byzantines head off into the sea south of Leeds, West of Newcastle – they mush have found something there; Sumerians settle; we can still do so too however; Hastings: Sword>Sword.

270 AD (Turn 2): Found Reading, reinforcements will move next to Humanga next turn.

IBT: Byzantines are watching us round the Dyes city; Londown: Sword:Sword; York: Sword>Sword; Tiwanaka expands; a resistor is quelled in Machu Pichu

280 AD (Turn 3): move troops next to Humanga.

IBT: More Byzantines disappear into the ocean by Newcastle; Dutch start Leonado’s and Knights Templar; we quell another resister in Machu Pichu.

290 AD (Turn 4): Humanga: 4/4 Sword v 3/3 Pike – wins still 4/4, 4/4 Sword v 3/3 Spear – dies, Spear 1/3, 4/4 Sword v 1/3 Spear, wins, promotes, captures city, 1 resister; Wines are now connected; drop lux to 10%

IBT: more Byzantines head into the ocean W of Newcastle; London, York, Hasings: Sword>Sword; Machu Pichu expands; Canterbury: Library>Market; Resistance in Huamanga ends; Coventry: Sword>Aqueduct; Inca are building Knights Templar in Cory.

300 AD (Turn 5): troops and a Cat are next to Vilcas for next turn.

IBT: more Byantines head across the ocean – none have come back; cuzco: Sword>Library; resistance ends in Machu Pichu; Oxford: Sword>Court.

310 AD (Turn 6): Vilcas: Catapult knocks vet Spear to 3/4, 4/4 Sword v 3/3 Spear – dies, Spear 1/3, 4/4 Sword v 3/3 Spear – wins now 3/5; 4/4 Sword v 3/4 Spear – wins now 1/4; 4/4 Sword v 1/3 Spear, wins, captures city, a Settler, 1 resister

IBT: Urgh – I let London riot; York: Sword>Sword; Warwick: Library>Market; Reading expands

320 AD (Turn 7): move troops closer to Cory.

IBT: London: Sword > Sword; Tiwanaka: Spear>Library; Hastings: Sword>Aqueduct; Norwich: Catapult>Courthouse; Barbarians start Statue of Zeus.

330 AD (Turn 8): more troops to Cori.

IBT: more Byzantine ships head off, 1 comes back injured! York: Sword>Market; Ollyantambo: Spear>Library; Huanage expands: Dover: Library>Harbour; Byzantines start Sistine Chapel.

340 AD (Turn 9): I possibly could take Cori this turn, but have several more troops that could attack next turn so for the sake of 1 turn I wait.

IBT: London: Sword>Market.

350 AD (Turn 10): Cori: Catapult misses; 4/4 Sword v 4/4 Spear – wins and Elites, 5/5 Sword v 3/3 Spear – dies, Spear 3/4; 5/5 Sword v 3/4 Spear, wins and captures the city, 2 resistors; Maya don’t have Engineering, so make Peace with Inca getting Fuedalism and Engineering for 195 gold. Get Monotheism from Maya for Engineering and 68 gold;

Treasury: 723gold + 102gpt, Invention due in – (0%)


Post-turn: I have left it on 0% research, but at 60%, +11gpt (the highest without going negative) we can do Theology 11, Chivalry 7 or Invention 8 turns. All but Maya have Chivalry and Invention and Byzantines have Theology, we have sufficient gold to trade for any of these. I have left it here without trading further as we need to discuss our path.

Who’s going to be next? Sumeria is very high culturally and several of our cities are in danger of flipping to them. Byzantines are strong however, but have they found Dr Evil and have started on him for us or are they just settling more land to build an even bigger empire?

Htadus (up next)
The_Godfather
Tone
tao
DBear
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD0350_01.SAV)

Excellent work on the Inca. I also fully agree going a little bit on infrastructure.

On a microscale, I recommend the following:

- starve Corihuayrachina
- switch Newcastle to market
- road the forrest between London and Hastings
- irrigate the Coventry lambs
- mine London hill
- send warrior sw of canterbury to Warwick as mp

In general, see that we improve tiles we work in our core; this is much more important than improving distant tiles. Do the easy improvements first before clearing marsh or jungle.

Should we push Coventry to wltkd and switch to cathedral to fight Sumeria culture pressure?

What about war on the Maya? They have incense, but neither iron nor horses. (We have to bring swords to York for upgrade first.) The 4th luxury would do us well and a couple of Medieval Infantry should doi the job. Maybe we even get a Great Leader from elite swords.

I would like to have a good couple of knights befor fighting Sumeria. And Byzantines I suppose is keeping the Barbarians busy.

May I also suggest embassies with Sumeria and Byzantines.

We can buy invention from Byzantine for dyes, spices, 520g. Then we can research gunpowder and get back in the tech trade business, hopefully. At least with some libraries, once the markets are finished. And it will hopefully keep Byzantines from attacking us and strengthen their fight against the barbarians.

Good job on the tech, Furley! :thumbsup:

Good idea about trading luxuries with Byzantines, it may keep them from declaring from us.

If we get Invention for Dyes, Spices and 519 gold (they'll accept 1 gold less) that still leaves us wines to play with. Do we want Chivalry?

Sumeria: Chivalry for Wines, 200 gold, 18gpt is an option.

That would allow us to start building up Knights while our Swords upgraded to MI deal with the Maya. We have plenty of Swords, but will need Knights to deal with Sumeria and Byzantines.

Good Job to all. :thumbsup: I will play tonight. I would prefer to trade for Chivlry and start on Knights. I would prefer to go after Samaria first. That way we will not end up with two extream fronts just in case they (Sumeria) feel like taking our lands when we are busy with Maya. But a short campaign with Maya may be possible too.

The Sumerian trade for Chivalry can be done as well as the trade with Byzantines. Of all the Civs, Byzantines are most likely to declare on us hence the trade for luxuries which they may even demand anyhow. We will be paying Sumeria gpt for 20 turns if we do the Chivalry trade as well so they will be less likely to declare and allow us to use the time to build Knights. Maya have the big advantage that we can declare quickly as they have no horses and Iron so we need to take then soon before they trade for it. We will not be able to go after Sumeria anyway until we have built up a good number of Knights so Maya will fill in the time until then. We should be able to finish Maya (on our continent) quickly and can always make Peace if we are attacked by Sumeria or Byzantines.

Summary: Byzantine deal for Invention first, possibly then Chivalry from Sumeria, use existing Swords upgraded to take Maya while building Knights in preparation for Sumeria.

Always remember: our final goal is to kill the Barbarians, not the AIs on our continent. As we are already paying gpt for our military, we have to build-up our infrastructure (markets) and increase the number of cities. For this Maya and probably Netherlands afterwards are the best targtes efficiencywise. Esüecially since we will get The Great Lighthouse from the Maya and Hanging Gardens from the Netherlands!

Fighting Sumeria will be a major task we cannot achieve without a good couple of knights at least. And we are a long way from that.

The Byzantines have dromons and are probably creating a lot of problems for The Barbarians with their bombardment.

And let me repeat my recommendation on establishing embassies with Sumeria and Byzantine.

I noticed that godfather made a number of posts recently and pmed him. His answer confirms that he will not play this sgotm.

Re: sgotm10

Originally Posted by tao
Hi,

you registered for sgotm10 and were assigned to team tao. But you never showed up. May I deduce that you are definitely not interested?

rgds

tao

hi yea, im sorry im just too busy and dont know how to do any of the technical stuff.

sorry i havent gotten back to you before now.


godfather

Summary: We took two cities and now going after the capital. Captured many slaves and is in the process of building a settler to deny Theo any chance of getting Horses for free. We need more cats to go after other civs. We got trades with others for the next 10 turns. Two horses are heading to a Rax town for promotions. I am going to leave the Elite Horse in Oxford for the next player to promote or keep for a GL try. Did not establish Embassies due to gold flow.

Next turn we will learn Gunpowder. We have 143g. 3 fresh Knights waiting for action.


350 AD (Turn 0): we get Invention for Dyes, Spices and 519g from Theo. Moved out Swords from around Cori to Maya Border. Changed Lib to Worker. Assign a clown to starve city. Added a clown to Coventry. AquaD still in 7 turns. Will wait on Chivalary since most core cities are working on Markets. Researching Gunpowder in 13 turns and 11gpt. We will need more gold for Chiv trade.

IBT: 5 Dromans move into our waters and Inca starts Knights Templar. Cori loose a citizen.

360 AD (Turn 1): Assigned available workers to improve core tiles. Move slaves to connect the last dye. Storm gathers near Copin.

IBT: Theo gets her Knights Templar. Sumeria switch to Leo. Good. Brighton:B>Rax, S>Pike.

370 AD (Turn 2): Sumeria is Annoyed with us now. So we grade Wines, 18gpt and 195g for Chivalry. Workers road and mine.

IBT: Newcastle: B>Lib, Barracks. Dr Evil Build Leo.

380 AD (Turn 3):Storm Gathers. Brighton Pike changes to Knight(23:( turns).

IBT: Canterbury: B>Market, S>Knight. Liverpool:B>AquaB, S>Knight. Theo and Gilgamesh starts Sistine.

390 AD (Turn 4): DOW on Maya outside the border. Capture several workers.

IBT: Theo is moving many Dromans. Dutch start Sistine.

400 AD (turn 5): Two Javelin throwers parked next to us. Sword1 take out first. Sword2 die :mad: and redline the JT. Move all the remaining units(2 cats, 1Horse and 12 swords) to the hill next to Copan. Will is Annoyed with us, so we gift him our recently connected Dyes. He only had 1g.

IBT: London and Leeds:B>Market, S>Knights (4 turns), Leeds:B>Lib, S>Rax. 3 JT's are heading towards Mach Picchu.

410 AD (Turn 6): VSword1 kills RSpear1, Cat1 damage RSpear2, Cat2 miss, VSword2 kills JT, ESword dies at the hand of yellow spear????:mad: :sad: VSword3 kill spear to capture Copan.:) 2 resistors in city. VSword4 dies to a JT with in the city radius. VSword5 wins. Fortified units in or around Copan.

IBT: Cuzco:B>Lib, S>Knight. Resistance end in copan. Coventry: B>AquaD, S>Pike. Dover:B>Harbor, S>Galley. DrEvil starts Sistine.

420 AD (Turn 7): Lost 3 swords :eek: trying to kill the 3 JT's near Machu Picchu. Killed 2. Last one is redlined.

IBT: Theo asked us why we are in her lands. We say we are just leaving. Hasting:B> AquaD,S>Knight. Maya warrior land on incense.

430 AD (Turn 8): VSword Killed the last JT with the help of a cat. Two other VSwords Kill the warrior and a RJT. 6 units are at the gates of Palenque.

IBT: Maya want Peace but will not give all the remaining Cities. So no Deal. Cori: B>worker, S>Lib. Now it is time for Cori to grow.

440 AD (Turn 9): Cat damage VJT, VSword1 kill RSpear and turn yellow, VSword2 die to RSpear who get promoted and turn yellow, VSword3 Kill VJT, ESword Kill Yellow Spear and capture Palenque. 3 resistors.:king:

IBT: London, York,Canterbury B>Knight, S>Knight, Coventry:B>Pike, S>Pike

450 AD (Turn10): Advance team of 2 cats and 5 VSword are heading to Maya Cap. Cat in Palen damaged the JT but RSword died.

Plan was to send all the healed units from the south of Chichen Itza to meet with the advanced team at the southwest tile. 3 Knights are comming to join the party. Increased Science to 70% to learn Gunpowder next turn at -9gpt. The settler buing built in Copan should be used to prevent Byzentines from getting horses to the SW.


http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD0450_01.SAV

....Always remember: our final goal is to kill the Barbarians, not the AIs on our continent. ............. For this Maya and probably Netherlands afterwards are the best targtes efficiencywise. Esüecially since we will get The Great Lighthouse from the Maya and Hanging Gardens from the Netherlands!.............Fighting Sumeria will be a major task we cannot achieve without a good couple of knights at least. And we are a long way from that.
.......

We will have about 8 Knights and 3 Pikes within next 10 turns. We should take at least some Sumarian cities since those cities will be very productive for us. We want to be able to build units faster. Build few cats and lets take several if not all sumerian cities. Low corruption is :king:

We will have about 8 Knights and 3 Pikes within next 10 turns. We should take at least some Sumarian cities since those cities will be very productive for us. We want to be able to build units faster. Build few cats and lets take several if not all sumerian cities. Low corruption is :king:You don't really disagree, because you got at the Maya first. And don't build catapults, build trebuchets. And I am not convinced that attacking Chichen Itza with swords is a good idea. And Cuzco should build market or at least a barracks before knight. And a Sumerian embassy would give us a very good idea about their strength. IMHO we are only able to fight a short war, or we run into the risk of loosing some of our cities. Capturing Lagash and Nottingham should be possible.

Once the market is built next turn we should be able to drop lux with some MP juggling. I'm not sure why we needed a Clown in Canterbury. We can upgrade those Swords to Medieval Infantry to add an extra attack point. We definitely should have an Embassy with Sumeria, we need the intelligence it would give us, we don't even know where the capitol is yet other than guessing it's close to Nottingham. Knowing that would give us a much better idea of what we will need to do once we do take on Sumeria. We may need to include the capitol in our plans just to reduce the flip risk to a managable level. Veteran Knights are what we need troop wise, not Pikes or regulars, cities without Barracks can build Trebuchets or Galleys. I notice we have a Galley building, once we capture the Great Lighthouse we may be able to locate Dr Evil. Tackling Sumeria will be a harder task than Maya (think back to the trouble we had taking the Inca capitol), the Dutch would be an easier target, but I am concerned that it would leave us strung out around the Byzantines who I feel will become a problem. Hanging Gardens would be very useful though to keep our nation happy and the timing would then probably be better to take on who we need to next. We are already the largest Civ on our continent so should be able to out produce any of our neighbours if attacked, but our goal is Dr Evil and he is larger and more advanced than we are. Byzantines are helping us there, perhaps an Embassy with them and a Military Alliance when we can would keep them focussed on Dr Evil not us. If they do that then that will be troops we do not have to pay upkeep for.

Without Godfather that makes the roster (please include it at the end of the turn log):

Tone (up next)
tao
DBear
Furiey
Htadus (just played)

Whoops. Thanks, Furiey! I'd lost track of this. I'll take a look a bit later on today.

It has dawned on me that I haven't followed recent turns. Sorry about that guys. Having looked at the save, I have a 'to do' list of:

Establish embassy with Sumaria (52g)
Switch Cuzco to rax as we don't want reg knights.
Various minor mm issues with citizens.

I'd also like to switch Newcastle to market. It will be a good place to build ships so I think that the market will be more useful than a rax. The towns inland can use some of the mines.

Switch Leeds to a harbour? It lacks food and will not be cranking out military very fast. If I don't hear anything I'll switch these two builds.

Not sure about the mini stack approaching the Maya. The swords are too far away from a rax to upgrade though but we need a few more if we are to attack successfully. The knights can get there in a few turns, so that stack may not move next turn and wait for a couple of elites to join in as well.

Research. I assume that we are heading to MT rather than lose our free temples with Education. Correct?

Do we have designs on either of the Sumerians or Dutch? It looks like both from the posts I've read in which case I'll not trade Gunpowder. Limited war vs Sumerians could be on the horizon but we have deals with all other civs that stretch beyond my turnset so I'll only be looking to set the next player up. How about I post a screenie after we've established the embassy and know salt locations? We can then make a new short term target so that I know where we are heading. Knights vs muskets is not fun so wars might be out of the question. Then again we were considering attacking the Dutch and they'll have Swiss Mercs so maybe I'm not reading the situation correctly.

A piccy after Gunpowder would be interesting, and the Embassy with Sumeria will show us where the capitol actually is. I had forgotten about the Swiss Mercs, a pike substitute with the same defence as a Musket won't be fun to defeat with Knights, like Horses v Spears. Once we see the strength of Sumeria and know the Saltpetre situation we can decide where we go. Chemistry next sounds best, at least delaying the loss of the Temples until after the Mayan war, that early expansion is so useful!

If I remember correctly, The next turn or two Copan will expand its boundary, that will make it easy for the units healed in Copan and the other city to meet up with the advanced team to attack.

As for taking on Sumeria, we should use trebs and send a offensive team (w/defense) to one city and a mainly defensive team to the hill next to the traitor city of Nottingham. AI should split units that way. The pikes are for defending border cities along the Sumeria. I typically assume (verified through observation) that a Civ which spend alot of time on culture, such as Sumeria in this case, does not have many military units. (But of course I have no more that dozen games under my belt) Also I agree that the Sumerian capital should also be one of our goals, depending on the inteligent we get from the embassy.

I messed up with the reg Knight :blush: and should have built a barracks first. Please use him in the east against JT's hoping for a promotion.

Miltrade sure is the direction we should head toward.

I said that I'd post a couple of screenies after the first turn for salt locations, etc. Long day at work and I've only just done this. I'll finish on Wednesday-no chance tomorrow as En-ger-land are playing tomorrow evening.:)

One turn log:

450AD (0)
switch Cuzco to rax, Newcastle to market and Leeds to harbour. Also switch Coventry from pike to knight. Est embassy with Sumeria for 52g. A little bit of mm to get us on 0gpt rather than -9 and then I press enter to find where the salt is.

IBT
JT withdraws.
Gunpowder>Chem
Machu Picchu: Lib>Market
Resistance in Palenque ends
Warwick: market>rax.

We have an unconnected salt(N-NE of Vilcas). The Byzantines have one (connected) source on their border with the Dutch, 2SE of Varna. No other civ has salt in view but holes in our map may mean that maybe we just cannot see it!

Ur city view. (Note the 8 pikes =>any war must be very short!)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Ur_450AD.JPG

Position of Ur in relation to us
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/460AD.JPG

save file attached if you want a closer look.

see you on Wednesday!

Yikes all those pikes!

But Ur is also culturally strong, so if we take Nottingham and Iznit would we be able to stop them flipping back unless we also took/destroyed Ur? At least we have Saltpetre.

Wow. That is a major defensive force in Ur. We need a large force and rng luck to take it.

By the way, will we be able to research to MilTrade at a good rate? Beat others? I guess at this level we should be able to.

I will look at Tones save to see how he optimize the cities.

I will look at Tones save to see how he optimize the cities.I don't know about 'optimize' but I tried a couple of things that I have listed below:

Palenque had three clowns and another city had a clown when taxmen would not result in riots. +8gpt difference here. The only big change that I made. If I had decided to reduce Palenque's population further, these would be taxmen again. Taxmen/scietists are just so much more powerful in C3C.

One city (in old Incan lands somewhere) was working a mined/roaded bg tile when corruption meant that any mined grass tile would still give the same spt as the extra shield was lost to corruption. The neighbouring city was working an unroaded forest so it took the mined bg instead, resulting in +1 food for this town and +1 commerce (IIRC) due to an additional roaded tile being used.

One of our core cities (Canterbury) was given a mined hill from another (Newcastle). This meant that it reduced the number of turns from 5 to 4 for knight production out of Canterbury and Newcastle will work another coastal tile. If the +1 gpt didn't come from the example above, it came from here. Newcastle has +1 food and it will soon get a specialist, which will help our income/research rate. That's fine by me if a core town can use it to greater effect. Also Hastings got an irrigated and roaded plains tile giving it +1 food and +1 shield.

I also switched a couple of citizens in a town that was just completing it's build (Warwick?) and gave it more food or commerce. This could be switched back again to improve production. I might have done this when asked about the new build but then again it might not. I'll be scrolling through the cities as I have done nothing since going onto the new turn. Palenque and any new pop growth elsewhere may not be as I want it.

BTW I did say minor mm. It's something that I find easier to do at the start of a turnset so please don't think that I'm being critical. I might have missed something, some of it is personal preference and it was only a little tweaking here and there.

BTW I did say minor mm. It's something that I find easier to do at the start of a turnset so please don't think that I'm being critical. I might have missed something, some of it is personal preference and it was only a little tweaking here and there.

Tone, I am not offended. I am tring to learn the fine tuning of my cities. I have got the worker actions down pretty well but need more help in the cities. Until this game I did not pay attention to the lost shields due to corruption until Tao made a point about working a flood plain over a unmined BG. These little things will help me become a better player. BTW Thanks for your explaination.:)

Something to watch out for is the overrun of shields when a build is completed. All shields over those actually needed are wasted so you can move off high shield tiles to higher food/commerce tiles as needed while still completing the build in the same time and possibly give the high shield tiles to another city to produce a build earlier there.

Playing with Offa's town capture simulator, we'd need 18 Vet Knights just for a 50% chance of taking Ur with that lot of defenders. 20 Knights would give approx 70% and 23 Knights 90%. Assuming we don't attack across a river and have no trebs/cats.

Just looking at the save and do we trade Gunpowder?

Byzantines already have gunpowder, but the Dutch will not give us either Theology or Republic for it even if we throw in gold. Sumeria however will nearly trade us both techs (not that we want Republic) so will give Theology, 22 gold and 2gpt. If the Dutch are close to getting it, perhaps we should trade it now.

Do they have gunpowder? If they do we can be in trouble. But as you say Dutch most likely nkow it soon. I say go for it. Use the 20 turns to build a formidable force for the eventual anexation of Sumerian land. We can use the gold for promotions.:)

Couldn't play last night. My plan to play Weds evening ignored the fact that I would not be getting home from work until 9pm. Tonight is free though so I'll play then. Agree with trade as we might as well get something for it. If the Dutch are close to it, Sumerians will get it on the cheap anyway. The cash is a minor thing though, Htadus, and will not fund much in the way of upgrades as it amounts to just 62g.

Do they have gunpowder?If you mean saltpetre, not that we can see, but there are several large holes in our map of their land....

460AD (1)
Units on automove again. :nono: I didn't want the horse and knight in those places! The 5 workers on the forest are not what I would choose to do either.
Swords joined by elites from Copan in advance on Chichen Itza.
Do the suggested trade of giving Gunpowder to Sumeria for Theo, 22g and 2gpt.

IT
Two JTs land outside Palenque
Cuzco: rax>knight
Oxford: court>'duct
Byz and Sum have Education.
NB Dutch and Sumerians do not have salt

470AD (2)
Swords attack Jts. First loses and is enslaved. Others win and we capture a 30 shield worker :(
Swords and knights converge on Chichen Itza.
workers move to coventry lambs which have remained without water!

480AD (3)
2 cats bombard the Mayan capital and two 4/4 JTs are reduced to 3/4. reg spear steps up.
Knight is redlined but kills the 3/3 spear.
other knight loses 2hp but kills a second 3/3 spear.
vet sword kills a 3rd 3/3 spear.
2nd vet sword does nothing against a 3/3 JT
3rd vet kills the 3/3 JT and up steps another 3/3 JT so we cannot take the city this turn.
Elite redlines the 3/3 but loses. :( up steps a 3/4 JT and so 3 JTs left?
Final elite sword is redlined but defeats the 3/4 JT.
3rd knight reaches the gates of Chichen Itza

IT
Two JTs leave Chichen!
London: knight>knight
York: knight>knight
Hastings: knight>knight
Liverpool: knight>knight
Leeds: Harbour>galley
Byz are building Copers

490AD (4)
Bombarment of JT does nothing.
Knight kills 4/4 JT
3/4 sword does nothing against a 3/3 JT.
The rest of the attack force are 2hp or less so I wait for 2 swords for next turn.

IT
JT attacks Palenque and loses.
Canterbury: knight>knight
Dover: galley>galley
Barbs are building copers

500AD (5)
Bombardment of Chichen reduces 3/3 JT to 2/3 revealing a 3/3 unfortified spear.
4/4 sword kills it, upgrading to 3/5
5/5 sword loses to 2/3 JT :(
Send in 2/4 knight and we capture the Great Lighthouse.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/GLH_captured.JPG
3 resistors; starving taxmen employed. The Mayan capital relocates to Yaxchilan, south of Byzantine city of Varna.

Elite sword kills wounded JT in the open.

IT
2 resistors in Chchen quelled and the town riots.
Tiwanaku: Lib>court
Coventry: knight>knight
Warwick: rax>knight
Norwich: court>'duct
Wounded Dromon comes back from West of Newcastle

510AD (6)
zzz

IT
Resistance in Chichen quelled
Huamanga: court>'duct


520AD (7)
5 knights converge on Tikal
galley is heading for the sea, west of Newcastle

IT
London: knight>knight
York: knight>knight
Sumerians have built the Sistine


530AD (8)
Attack on Tikal: knight beats 3/3 JT
second knight beats 3/3 spear and the town is ours.
Reassess lux situation. switch of lux tax, move a couple of units and put sci @ 100% for Chem in 2 turns.

Mayans will offer us Rep or any one city for peace. I see no reason for persuing the war further and so I'd be tempted to take a city for peace. This looks a good place to hand over but I'm happy to take two more turns if you prefer, tao.

Save attached. Will submit or finish as directed.


tao (up next?)
DBear
Furiey
Htadus
Tone (just played or maybe still playing)

I can't look at the save (being in the office). I can play tomorrow, either 12 or 10 turns.

Good job on removing Mayans from the continent. Should we make peace now or wait 2(?) turns in case one of the cities flips back to Mayans?

I can't look at the save either at the moment as I'm at my sister's and although I have brought Civ with me I'v not yet had chance to install it. I don't know what the flip probabilites are, but to reduce them it may be worth waiting until the cities are out of resistance before making peace.

I can't look at the save (being in the office). I can play tomorrow, either 12 or 10 turns.OK. I'll upload the save to the server then. I think that with deals starting to run out you can have a couple of turns to set yourself up for any new action.

Good job on removing Mayans from the continent. Well they are still on the continent but their capital is beyond the Byzantines and so would be out on a limb if we took it. I think we should hold what we have. Also new knights are currently on MP duty to enable 100% research.

Should we make peace now or wait 2(?) turns in case one of the cities flips back to Mayans?Flip chances attached in a 'shot from CRpMapStat. They are not the highest risk as they have all 20 tiles securred. A couple more turns with starving taxmen will reduce the risk further. We must hold onto the GLHouse so I would certainly starve that city right down to pop size 1.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Flip_530AD.JPG

We are now in the position to explore those sea tiles and check out the Barbs. If the Byzantines can reach them via that sea passage, then we should have no problem with the GLHouse in our hands. Maybe we should now start to focus on our main objective and secure the services of the Byzantines with continued lux deals and alliances? This could mean a landing party which implies a stack with muskets and maybe trebs.

Save link on SGOTM server (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD0530_01.SAV)

Summary:
Very mixed turns: two bad flips (both recaptured), some more cities, good deals, fighting with Barbarians started, first glimps of the world, some good trades. Great Leader Edward built us an army. But we have a very long way to go.

Pre-Turn (-2: 530AD)
Switch London, Coventry, York, Canterbury, Cuzco, Tiwanaku to cathedral. Switch Liverpool to market. Starve Copan whlie speeding settler. Switch palenque to barracks - we want at least one of them in the east. Switch hastings to market. Switch Vilcas mine build to irrigation, library to granary, then market. Some mm. Move catapult towards barracks for upgrade to trebuchets.

IBT Byzantines start Copernicus'

-1: 540AD: galley can't enter sea tiles - regardless of Great Lighthouse :( :(
Byzantines know printing press; we will learn chemistry next turn.

IBT we learn chemistry and start metallurgy

0: 550AD: kill Maya spear with elite sword, but no Leader

IBT Barbarian Caravel appears near Norwich - we have to move troops to the west.

1: 560AD: deals:
Sumeria gives education, republic for chemistry
establish embassy in Constantinople (4 muskets, 1 mi)
Byzantine give astronomy, 97g, 15gpt for chemistry, dyes, spices, alliance vs. Barbarians
Netherlands give 50g, 5gpt for education
Inca give 25g, 2gpt for theology
-> we now need 10% lux
move warrior out of Leeds to attrack Barbarians

IBT Barbarians drop 2 knights, dromons sink 1 of their caravels, another one looses
Byzantines build Copernicus in Smyrna
Barbarians complete Statue of Zeus in Chanca

2: 570AD: knight looses vs Bknight (2/5)
knight kills BKnight
sword looses vs BKnight (1/5)
warrior looses vs BKnight
warrior kills BKnight
upgrade galley to caravel
move more troops west

IBT Tiwanaku and our win es flip to Inca :( - mm to prevent riots

3: 580AD: caravel goes west, finds lans and Bcara
move elite swords towards Tiwanaku

4: 590AD: we now need 20% lux
peace with Maya getting 28g, island of Magareto; there is a Dutch spear-settler combo on the only other island tile
cara explores Barb island city of Teoihuacan - looks very bad, may be 1 tile island

5: 600AD: found Birmingham
indeed: Teoihuacan is 1 tile island - we need marines :( :( :(
Sumeria gives 83g, 4gpt for dyes, alliance vs. Barbs
Byzantines give 86g, worker, 9gpt for horses (let them build knights to fight the Barbs)

IBT Barbs drop mi

6: 610AD: knight dies vs mi (1/4) :(
knight kills mi
despite of the 560 deal, we declare on Inca - we want "our" wines back; 3 elite swords, 1 knight moves next to Tiwanaku - defended by spears
caravel locates Barb city of New Apache

IBT: another desaster: Hasting flips to Barbarians - can you imagine? :( :mad:
Sumeria captures New Apache

7: 620AD: knight kills Barb spear and re-captures Hastings
battle for Tiwanaku
knight kills 4/4 spear
esword kills 3/3 spear and we get Great Leader Edward :D - build army
Tiwanaku with wines is our; lux down to 10%; starve it

8: 630AD: explore Barb coast
Byzantines, Sumeria have banking, navigation

IBT pirate ship sinks our caravel

9: 640AD: we learn metallurgy and have another important turn of deals:
Byzantines give navigation, wm, 18g, 8gpt for metallurgy - we know part of the Barbarian coastline
Sumeria gives banking, wm, 43g, 6gpt for metallurgy, wm - and we mostly learn more about water tiles
sell navigation to Netherlands for pp, 3g, wm
sell Barb contact to Maya for 28g, wm :D

10: 650AD: Inca give their last city of Vitcos, wm, 19g, 1gpt for peace :)
hurry temple in Tiwanaku

Post-turn:
a) We are 6 turns from learning military tradition - that should help fight any Barbarian invasions.
b) Our culture is weak, especially notable towards Sumeria. And as we have to capture Teoihuacan, we need marines. Should we invest in libraries and universities?
c) We may explore the ocean with the sole purpose of selling the map info. Two caravels are still unmoved, but beware of Barbarian pirate ships.
d) I set some build queues. Feel free to change, if circumstances demand it.
e) I suggest to wait till cavalry to fill our army.

DBear (up next)
Furiey
Htadus
Tone
tao (just played)

The save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD0650_01.SAV)

The world as we know it at 650AD.

Downloaded the save, will look at tomorrow. Will try to wrap up my GotM56 first, I almost have it won. How in the Wide World of Sports did a city flip to Barbarians when they're nowhere around us? :eek: I second waiting until we have cav. We'll need some galleons to ship them over.

How in the Wide World of Sports did a city flip to Barbarians when they're nowhere around us? :eek:Absolutely. No foreign citizens and surely not under cultural pressure on the borders. It didn't come up as a risk on MapStat a few turns earlier but I'll look again when I download the save.

Our culture is weak, especially notable towards Sumeria. And as we have to capture Teoihuacan, we need marines. Should we invest in libraries and universities?I haven't actually looked at the save yet but from what you've written I totally agree. These barbs are advanced enough that if we just rely on cavs, they'll be defending with infantry before we've finished the job.

I looked at the 610AD save and CivAssist II gives Hastings no flip risk at all. :confused:

I also keep meaning to look at the civilopedia for this game. The fact that we cannot enter sea tiles when in possession of the GLHouse also fooled me.

I've checked MapStat and like CivAssist, that doesn't show any flip probability for either the 530 AD or 650 AD saves. I obviously can't check the 610 AD one though. Could the problem be that we don't know where their capitol is yet so the flip chance is not given yet? Unfortunately we can't establish an embassy with them to find out.

edit: I did look in the Civilopedia, but missed about not being able to enter sea squares even with the Lighthouse. Unfortunately the pedia is large and it would take a long time to look at everything, I just picked up on what was obviously new :(

edit2: Another possibility for the cause of the flip is propaganda. The barbarians have been able to sabotage production from the start, can they use propoganda as well?

edit3: Agreed on the culture, ours sucks! We need to do something or we will lose ground on research as well. This game will not stop at Cavalry.

edit 4: There is a 2 tile island off the Barb coast with city rubble on 1 tile, do we want to establish a staging post? It will not be a productive city but should be defendable and will allow us to build a SOD a little closer to their shores before we move in. If we leave some troops on the other tile outside the city we should be able to retake it if it does flip (due to culture or otherwise).

edit 5: Looking at the Civilopedia there is no mention under the Galley entry of not being able to enter sea tiles, just the usual information about the chance of sinking if it finishes the turn in a sea tile.

I'd like to get this done tomorrow, as I've finished up GotM56--a nice pleasant romp.

I see a lot of plans at cross purposes. Military? Culture? Research? This is a problem in my games, I tend to want to do everything and suffer for it. I'll probably build libraries, they will help culture AND research, we'll also need marketplaces to pay for the military.

edit 5: Looking at the Civilopedia there is no mention under the Galley entry of not being able to enter sea tiles, just the usual information about the chance of sinking if it finishes the turn in a sea tile.
We didn't change any of the Civilopedia text for this game. The only changes you see are the ones that are automatically picked up by the 'pedia software from the game data.

Galleys CAN enter sea tiles, they CAN'T enter ocean tiles. The fact that galleys cannot enter ocean tiles was stated in the game release info and in your first post:
- Galleys can never enter ocean tiles.

Doh! I suppose it would help if we all read the game release info and first post properly! Thanks Alan.

Yes.:blush: I guess that tao meant to say 'ocean' tiles in his last turnlog.

Doh! I suppose it would help if we all read the game release info and first post properly! Thanks Alan.

:) I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that perhaps you did, but it was posted nearly two months ago :p

Ah yes, the memory does tend to go with age....

I played up to 720, when I loaded up the cav army. I stopped there, as I wasn't sure what to do at that point. The nw coast is crawling with Barb ships. The GotM site is down, so I couldn't upload the save. Will try again later and post a turn log when it's back up.

SG10

1. 650: I decide to wait until MT comes online before sending out the caravel. Why are Tiwanaku's citizens all employed as scientists? It's still 6 turns to research. Buy the lib in Ollantay for 80. Hastings and Oxford switched to lib. Shift citizen in Huamanga to get the aquaduct faster. Liverpool switched to bank, it has 6 happy people, so it doesn't need a temple. Leeds is switched to market, it needs happy people before it needs an aquiduct. Upgrade trebs to cannon. Hope y'all noticed that ocean differential is on.

2. 660: Tiwanaku temple-->market. Ollantay lib-->rax. Volcano se of Warwick is active. I pry 16 gold out of Dora while trading maps, they don't help.

3. 670: Cuzco cathedral-->market. London musket-->bank. York musket-->bank. Canterbury knight-->bank. Norwich aqua-->market.

4. 680: Barbarians sighted offshore. Warwick temple-->cathedral.
Volcano erupts, but none of our working lands are affected.

5. 690: More barb ships show up. They look like they're heading for Sumeria, but I'm watching just the same. Coventry temple-->knight. Barbs steal our military plans.

6. 700: A barb ship takes a shot at Tikal and fails, withdraws. Dora wants to trade maps again, but she won't throw in gold, so we refuse.
Machu Picchu starts settler. Dover caravel-->caravel.

7. 710: Learn military, start physics. We catch a Barb spy, but they sabotaged production in Huamanga. Barbs land a knight, mace, and pike outside Dover. Knight kills pike. Lose leet sword vs. knight. Byzantines and Sumers cross the border to kill Barbs.

8. 720: Newcastle temple-->barbs. Oxford lib-->cav. I form the cav army but I hesitate to send it across the sea when there are so many pirate ships about. I choose to stop, as I don't know how to continue from here.

Our econ is in decent shape. Our research and military could be better. Two settlers are being built, one should go in the neutral zone between Netherlands and Byzantines s of Palenque, the other should fill the gap w of Chichen Itza.




http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD0720_01.SAV

Hmmm, I can see why you stopped. With the Barb ships it's going to be difficult to get our troops across without being sunk. If we want to cross to the closest point we can get there in 1 turn or even to the 2 tile island (which may still make a useful staging post). We could perhaps take the ships N then back to the S the next turn and hope the Barbarians don't follow. Unfortunately now the Army is fully loaded it won't load into a Caravel with a capacity of 3, so is stuck on our home continent until we can upgrade to Galleons. The Southern part of the Barb continent looks to be less densely populated. Rather than attack the centre of the Barb Nation in the north we could perhaps set up base in the South with a few cities and pick of the troops as they appear before moving north. It may be easier to get a foothold but would have the disadvantage of leaving their production centre intact, plus it will be quite a journey to get there.

We definitley need to discuss this so I won't rush to play

Situation:
The way the game is rigged, I assume The Barbarians are about as technologically advanced as we are.

Thus they have cavalry.

Thus they will slaughter any musket-protected landing party we manage to put on their continent.

Even if we reach it after losses to pirate ships.

Thus we should not attempt to cross the waters now.

PS: We need marines to capture Teoihuacan 2. :(

Conculsion:
We now must push our research capability (build universities, not banks) and local dominance.

Stop trading horses to Byzantine asap. We don't want them to have many cavalry when we attack.

Build many cavalry, few muskets.

Build some more cannons.

Go for magnetism. This will allow us to build man-of-war and trigger our Golden Age. (We must have libraries/markets/universities by then.)

Man-of-war can enslave and generate upkeep-free more man-of war. :)

Hopefully we can create more armies from Leaders generated from killing Barb landing parties.

War:
Sumerians would "give" us more, if we can fight them. But IMHO we are NOT strong enough anytime soon to do so. Thus no more horses to Theo. She has to go and Willi as well.

Suggested Details:
As said: no banks, universities; switch immediately. Yikes: London, York do not even have a library. :cry: I would sacrifice the shields switching to library. IMHO it was a big mistake not to do this earlier.

- mm Copan to align settler with growth.
- Machu Picchu to courthouse.
- Palenque to market.
- Corihuayrachina should work irrigated gras, not mined horses.
- Coventry -> university, market
- Warwick -> university
- Newcastle -> university
- mm Vilca to work the mine, not the unimproved hill
- Liverpool -> university
- Dover -> aqueduct (we don't need caravels now)
- mm Lagartero, or it will riot (create scientist)
- Reading -> market, univerisity
- Chichen Itza -> courthouse

Worker actions:
- Brighton needs mine
- York forrest needs road
Cuzco needs mines
- Leeds hill need mine
- Newcastle mountain needs mine
- etc.
In general, improve core cities first. Do "easy" improvements before costly ones. Example: Newcastele mine vs. cutting jungle.

I pretty much agree with all of tao's post. We sort out our infrastructure, build up some ground forces but concentrate on getting a couple of stacks of man-o-wars so that we can dominate the seas. Let's see if our friends can then do some damage on the ground before we send over a decent force.

However I do have two differences of opinion:

1. I would not sacrifice the shields in the banks. The ability to generate gpt will be useful when we hit the early IA and Sumeria and Byzantines get their free techs. I agree that we need the Libs first really but now that they are almost built... I don't see that the libs will reduce our current research time for Physics and they'll be in place for the next research project

2. I would prefer to use the Byzantines top help push our research. This is an Emperor level game and so the AI can complement what we research. Why do we need to knock them out?

Additionally:

AFAICS we are running @10% lux to keep just three citizens working. I would suggest switching off the lux tax, creating a scientist/taxman and couple of clowns which will enable us to increase science by 10% and get to Physics one turn earlier. (Maybe Liverpool did need that temple! Using 10% lux is not cost effective if only a couple of towns need it. Temples and caths can be more cost effective if used selectively.) Using CivAssist, we don't need to have science at 90% for very long to reduce that research time by one turn so we'll also get a few turns with an extra 25gpt, which might enable us to push the limits on the next project.

I agree with getting rid of the lux tax. Shuffling some mp may also help.

I don't agree with the banks. IMHO they will increase the income (assuming we are running 80%-90% science) by 2-3gpt per city. Deduct the upkeep and we net 1-2gpt. :(

OTOH it will push back the universities following the libraries by 5-6 turns. And that will "cripple" our research.

But the player may decide ...

We're weak to Byzantines (and the Barbs), average to Sumeria an strong to the Dutch.

We have 8 turns left on the Horse deal with Byzantines before we can cancel it. I will do so then, I would prefer it if they do not have Cavalry in case they decide to declare on us. Hopefully they will use up what Cavalry they have trying to get to the Barbs.

I agree about delaying the attack on the Barbs. Dutch are not in a position to help us with them so they should go (we have 4 turns of a gpt deal from them which we could cancel but it will allow us to have a few more Cavs and position troops). Byzantines can help so I am tempted to leave them (but be prepared) for a while at least. Sumeria still has not got Saltpetre so if the Byzantines allow it, I'm tempted to go for them after the Dutch as the cities will be more productive and it will decrease the culture threat from them. We have 12 turns of a pt deal left with Sumeria.

York: Building a Bank (in 3) would waste 20 shields if switched to a Library and the 20 shields from this turn.
Machu Piccu: agreed Courthouse, I would rather cream off a Settler from a city with happiness problems.
Palenque: getting 1spt a Barracks is useless other than for upgrading and healing, a market is 77 turns away but anything else is as well, even if I went for a courthouse instead we would end up having to rush it. So MM for growth for a bit as we get no more shields at the moment.
Ollyantanbou: to Courthouse
Hastings: change to Uni, the Harbour will only improve to coastal tiles.
Canterbury: change to Uni (no lost shields)
Cory: agree about the MM, the extra shield is lost to corruption.
Coventry: we appear to have built a Cathedral here (and other places) before a market and other research based culture. I'll queue Uni & Market up.
Warwick: change to Uni, some rearranged MP will help.
Newcastle: change to Uni. some hill improvements and tile shuffling in this area would help.
Liverpool: change to Uni and give a plains tile to Hastings as the extra shield is lost in corruption.
Dover: Aqueduct - agreed - this city needs to grow and it will be productive then.
Reading: change to Market
Birmingham: change to Library
Chichen Itza: agreed on the Courthouse.
London: would waste 35 shields + the 23 this turn switching to a Library, all for saving 2 turns.

Manage to drop the Lux tax without the need for any further entertainers with some MP shuffling. But we have far too few free troops to even take on the Dutch at the moment, I'll have to try and juggle a few more Cavs in between the improvements.

London: would waste 35 shields + the 23 this turn switching to a Library, all for saving 2 turns.:confused: :confused: :confused: Do you have a different way of counting? :mischief: ;)
If we switch now, we have a library in 1 turn. If we don't switch: in 6 turns. University is the same number of turns late.

The library gives +10bpt (btw: mine the SSE grass for +11bpt), the bank +2gpt ....

Manage to drop the Lux tax without the need for any further entertainers with some MP shuffling. I forgot that we are in Monarchy! But we have far too few free troops to even take on the Dutch at the moment, I'll have to try and juggle a few more Cavs in between the improvements.I think that our main priority is to improve our towns. If we can squeeze a few cavs out, all well and good, but are we in a hurry to KO any other civs?

720 AD (Turn 0): Lots of MM as per earlier post, do not change London and York banks to Libraries; drop lux and increase Science to 90% for Physics in 6.

IBT: Barbarian Pirate ships bombard Tikal and Palenque from the E; stack of Barbarian ships heads N by Norwich.

730 AD (Turn 1): Bombard Barbarian ships to little effect; bit more MM/MP shuffling as a couple of cities have grown.

IBT: Barbarian ships land 3 MI and 2 Pike between Norwich and Newcastle; Sumerian and Byzantine troops move in (including a Byzantines Crusader); London: Bank>Library; Vilicas: Market>Aqueduct;

740 AD (Turn 2): Cavalry, Sword, MI and Cav Army deal with the landing with no losses but no promotions; more MM & MP shuffling to prevent disorder and Copan to time Settler production with growth.

IBT: More Barbarian Caravels off the West cost approach Newcastle; our people want to build the Heroic Epic and the Military Academy; Copan: Settler > Library (it’ll take a long time whatever); York: Bank>Library; Coventry: Cavalry>Uni; Barbarian Nation starts Smith’s Trading Company.

750 AD (Turn 3): Shuffle MP again; move a Cav towards potential Newcastle landing; swap a Knight and Cav round to upgrade the Knight next turn; drop research to 80% with Physics still in 3.

IBT: Barbarian ships appear in the N and drop 3 Knights, an MI and a Pike by Norwich; our Military plans are stolen!

760 AD (Turn 4): Bombard and miss the invading troops; Vet Cav dies redlining the Pike; another Cav kills a Knight; I can’t get enough troops there to prevent a city falling if attacked (both Norwich and Brighton are vulnerable and there are 2 Knights, a MI and a redlined pike left), move troops closer, empty Dover of defenders and leave some exposed Workers just out of reach in the hope they’ll go for another target so I can get defenders in. I might have to change some of the Unis to Cavs but will avoid it if I can; the gpt deal with William is over but we are in no position to attack.

IBT: Watch a Dutch Caravel sunk by unseen forces; the Barbarian MI pillages; the first Knight captures Brighton :( and I get a strange blank pop-up message); Another Knight is landed by the empty Dover; several Barbarian ships enter Brighton. A Dutch Caravel appears by Brighton and I get another message: The game will now exit. I have the save from just before I pressed the button so will have to reload from that and see if it does the same thing, but I have to go out now so will post this so you can all see the bad news.

:confused: :confused: :confused: Do you have a different way of counting? :mischief: ;)
If we switch now, we have a library in 1 turn. If we don't switch: in 6 turns. University is the same number of turns late.

The library gives +10bpt (btw: mine the SSE grass for +11bpt), the bank +2gpt ....Ah yes :blush: I have obviously invented a new method that involves adding 4 to the time that it takes to build a Library in 1..... Oh, well they're built now....

It appers that we will be in the defense for a while. So why not build some defensive units instead of relying on aged warriors for MP'ing only? We are going to need a stack of muskets just to keep our Cav units from getting exterminated. Muskets can survive a cav attack but cav has very little chance of surviving a cav attack.

We should not build improvements (excluding courthouses)in cities with significant corr. Use them to build units.

I use a trick when I am in a similar defense mode; you proberbly do some thing similar. I fill all but one landing tiles with any kind of unit. The tile I leave open usually has low defense bonus. I keep my seige units next to the open tile with many offensive units. AI always find the open landing tile irresistable if that is the only landing site within the range of their ships. Their units have no chance after landing.:satan:

There is two ways to approach the local AI.
1. Since it is most likely that the Barbs steal technology learned by two Civs, we should get rid of Bizentines soon as possible so Barbs will not benefit from it.
2. We need productive cities, so lets annex Sumerian lands.

I like to go after sumeria. I bet that after our initial attack, they will be weaker than us. With good planing we should be able to take at least 3 cities the first turn. We should take combat settlers with us to repopulate the tiles. We should make sure thay survive to use for future trades. Just in case.

Reload and no strange blank pop up or crash, but what appears to be exactly the same result to that point; Byzantines don’t want to continue paying 15gpt for the alliance against the Barbarians, renegotiate for 7gpt and 11 gold.

770 AD (Turn 5): recapture Brighton with the Cav Army s Market; attack the pillaging MI with the Elite Sword which wins but no leader; attack the redlined Pike with the Elite Horse which also wins and GL Boudica appears; leave Brighton empty to ensure landings in that region rather than elsewhere.

IBT: The Dutch Caravel is sunk by the Barbarians; Barbarians land a Knight, MI and Pike by Dover; we research Physics and start Magnetism (due in 7 at 90%); London Library>Cavalry (sorry I need them, the Uni will have to wait);

780 AD (Turn 6): defeat defenders but I need more Cavs, luckily 1 MI can just reach; more MM for happiness due to the troop movements.

IBT: no landings this turn but looks like there will be more at Brighton next turn: Cuzco: Market>Cavalry; York: Library>Cavalry; Lagartero: Spear>Spear; Leeds: Market>Aqueduct;

790 AD (Turn 7): mm after city growth, Workers continue mining around Cuzco and other places as they become free from jungle clearing; we are now average to Byzantines.

IBT: Barbarians drop 3 Knights and a MI by Brighton; we get bombarded at Dover and Palenque as we have pretty much every turn; Sumeria offers us Music Theory for Military Tradition, I decline his generous offer; Maccu Pichu: Courthouse>Barracks; Huamanga: Aqueduct>Market; Norwich: Market>Library; Dutch start JS Bach’s; Amsterdam completes Magellan’s Voyage (thank you William); Newcastle citizens are upset by a propaganda campaign.

800 AD (Turn 8):. 3 Entertainers are needed to keep Newcastle from rioting; lose 1 Cavalry killing the 3 Knights and 1 MI other Cas win but I have not had a single Cav promotion yet; drop science to 80% to still get magnetism in 5.

IBT: We get bombarded again but no landings this turn although there are Caravels off the coast that will land troops next turn; Canterbury: Uni>Cavalry; Byzantines start JS Bach’s.

810 AD (Turn 9): Byzantines (& Sumeria) now have Military Tradition; cancel deal for Horses with Byzantines; take great pleasure in redining a Pirate ship with cannon and sinking it with one of our Caravels;

IBT: Barbarians bombard again and land 3 Knights (1 Elite) by Brighton; London: Cavalry>University; Oxford: Cavalry>Cavalry

820 AD (Turn 10): Cavalry kill the 3 Knights for no loss with 2 promoting to Elite (finally); as we are out of sequence again I continue for another 3 turns.

IBT: Barbarians land a mixed load of troops; York: Cavalry>Cavalry; Tikal: Harbour>Market; Cori: Market>Courthouse; Barbarians complete JS Bach’s Cathedral; our Military Plans are stolen.

830 AD (Turn 11):. Stack by Brighton consists of 2 Pikes, 2 Longbow and 1 MI; bombard then attack with Cavalry, lose one Cav attacking a 2/3 Pike, others win, 2 Elite Cavs win against Longbows but no GL; increase science to 90% for Magnetism in 1 rather than 2.

IBT: Learn Magnetism start ToG; Tiwanaku: Market>Courthouse; Reading: Market>Courthouse;

840 AD (Turn 12): Some troop shuffling.

IBT: Machu Piccu: Barracks>Cavalry; Vitcos: Spear>Spear; Sumerians start Shakespeare’s Theatre;

850 AD (Turn 13): change Oxford to Market;

Treasury: 28 gold, +15 gpt, Theory of Gravity in 6 (80%)

Post-turn: I’ve been concentrating on Infrastructure, but have had to build some more Cavs to deal with the landings. We have enough in that region now to deal with landings. There are other Cavs dotted about elsewhere in case of landings. We do not need static defenders that can only wait to be attacked, build/use Cavalry instead that have the movement to get to any landing and attack and kill the invaders as soon as they land before they can attack us. If the defenders in the cities had been Cavalry I would have had enough to defeat the invasion that took Brighton, but I had troops I could not use as they could not get there. Old Warriors are perfectly adequate as MP. I have Workers chopping Jungle by Leeds as I didn’t want a landing in it. The Leeds Workers have got a bit mixed up, there’s an extra Slave in the Jungle that should be with those on the hill the other side of Leeds, he can join them once the Jungle is chopped. Everytime there is a landing the Sumerians send in a stack from Lagash, and the Byzantines from the Trebizond region. These leave again when the landing is repelled. We cannot stop the Barbarians from landing, we do not have enough troops, but Brighton is left empty to concentrate the landings there so that we will have sufficient troops in the area to deal with it. We are not yet ready to deal with Sumeria, we cannot afford to strip out the troops for that, but we should be able to deal with the Dutch soon. The Byzantine Horses deal has been cancelled, but we should consider what to do if they demand Horses. At the moment we do not have sufficient troops to deal with them as well. Too tired for any more tonight.

Htadus (up next)
Tone
tao
DBear
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD0850_01.SAV)

It appers that we will be in the defense for a while. So why not build some defensive units instead of relying on aged warriors for MP'ing only? We are going to need a stack of muskets just to keep our Cav units from getting exterminated. Muskets can survive a cav attack but cav has very little chance of surviving a cav attack.Only build defensive units to counter the barbs when we can be attacked. Until marines, the best way is to push them back into the sea when they land. For this we want strong, mobile units. Cavs fit the bill quite nicely.

Sorry. I can't look at the save until tonight for a view on what to do if the Byz demand horses. It sounds like you've stabalised things quite nicely though, Furiey. Yet again it appears that I've underestimated the Barb strength. They are also very aggressive with it, so it is fully understandable that some uni builds were delayed.

Got the file and opened to look.

We have
20 workers + 32 Slaves
7 warriors (all reg)
6 Spears (4 reg, 2 vet)
11 swords (1 reg, 9 vet, 1 elite)
1 pike (vet)
3 muskets (vet)
2 knights (vet)
9 Cav:( (7 vet, 2 elite)
3 cannons
2 caravels
2 armies:)
4 MIs (vet)

We definitely do not have the force required to start a second front.

I agree we should build more Cav units and I would like to add more cannons to the group.

Tikal and Planque building Market place when they should Courthouses. They have 69% and 83% corruption respectively. I would like to change them to courthouses or someone else could do it later.

I have been thinking about getting our neighbors on the Barb crosshairs. This may sound crazy, but if we block all our landable tiles (39 in all along the western coast) the landing parties should go to our neighbors. And if they manage to take a city, we can annex it to our own. Is it too unrealistic/outrageous? :eek:

Anyway, the next ten turns should be status quo. I feel we should give in to Biz if they demand horses unless we can agree to open two fronts. It is mid night and I will wait until evening of 4th to play, so feel free to comment. Later.

Quick question; in corrupt cities, other than the culture points, do libraries give a good boost to research?

Speaking of aggressive, it appears that landing ship has 3 pirate escort? We need to build a Navy. Can a caravel reach barb mainland from the east coast side? I bet thay are forcused on the short trip in the west.

The group in the N have not landed yet so should land next turn. We don't have enough units to block the landing, better to direct it to somewhere we can defend. All the landing ships have a similar amount of defenders (you may even get several simiar groups together), there are also several Pirate ships not on escort duty (on both coasts), plus even some Privateers which I have seen stacking with the Barbarian ships so are obviously also Barbarian. We cannot reach the Barbarian mainland in 1 turn from the West so we won't from the East. We can now build our UU which can enslave the shipscreating more MoW. I did not started any MoW builds.

1 of the Armies only has 1 Cav in it as I was waiting before more became available. We have 2 Elite Cavs now for leader fishing, use them carefully as that is all that promoted despite extensive fighting. I used the Leader I got for another Army, is there anything else we want a Leader for, we could (from memory) build Military Academy or Heroic Epic now, but Heroic Epic will take 7 turns in London.

I think you did the correct thing by making an army. We should hand build the heroic epic. I will focus on units for the moment and will fish for leaders. After the Penzers take on the Legionary on the football field today;) , I will play and post.

Okay. I played 4 turns and realized;

1. We are going to be in IA next turn and what are we going for. I prefer to research Steam.
2. Sumeria got all over 1750g and we can sell Physics to them and to Byz and Dutch. Sumeria will give 1315g. Should I? Theo is most likely going to be learing it soon. And they will sell to Gilgamesh.

Any comments will help. Thanks. I will play in 3 hous from this post.

Okay. I played 4 turns and realized;

1. We are going to be in IA next turn and what are we going for. I prefer to research Steam.
2. Sumeria got all over 1750g and we can sell Physics to them and to Byz and Dutch. Sumeria will give 1315g. Should I? Theo is most likely going to be learing it soon. And they will sell to Gilgamesh.

Any comments will help. Thanks. I will play in 3 hous from this post.IMHO yes on both questions (and more). Steam is the way to go.

Since both Byzantine and Sumeria are scientific, we should bring them into IA for their free tech. Thus get all you can get (cash, maps, GPT) from them and donate them the rest. It will increase their fight against the Barbarians and help us in pushing tech. Maybe we can even trade for their tech (after we research one ourselves), but don't give them too much gpt. We have to aim for Theory of Evolution with a well-timed pre-build.

Did you already re-new the alliance with Sumeria? If not, now is the time to do it.

Agreed on all points FWIW. (It's beyond the three hour deadline but I've only just got up. I guess that you're not in the same part of the world as me, Htadus.)

Did you already re-new the alliance with Sumeria? If not, now is the time to do it.

We still have several turns of the alliance, will renew at that time. I will get every thing they are willing to part and will gift the two civs into IA.

@Tone

I am in San Diego, California. I go to bed just about you are waking up. :)

850 AD (Turn 0): mm Norwich for +1gpt. Two workers are building a mine for Brighton on a irrigated plain. I see why this would benefit the city.
IBT: More bombardment, Inca ask to renew the peace treaty, we agree. Liverpool: Univ>Cav, Barbs Building S. Theater.

860 AD (Turn 1): Workers clear the jungle next to Lead. They irrigate and road the tile. Slave is sent to join the crew west of Canterbury. Added workers to clear the jungle E of Warwick, to road forest S of Oxford, build a mine for Cusco and Reading, and to road the forest for York.
IBT: 2 Knights, 2 MI's and 1 pike lands. Bombardment damage a Cav. York: Cav>Cav, Ollant: Courthouse>Cannon, Hastings: Univ>Cav, Vilcas: Duct>Rax. Theo: Start S. Theater.

870 AD (Turn 2): Canons only damage one Knight. ECav take out VKnight; nothing, Army take out RPike, ECav kill yellow VKnight; nothing, 2 VCav's kill the two VMI units. No promotions. Sending slaves to irrigate a mined grass land for Vilcas, they need food. Reduced science to 70% and still get ToG in 4 turns. Changed Cusco Cav to a University. It really need it and we have Cavs coming from other cities. We got 53 gpt now, So I will promote any available knights.
IBT: 2 knights, 1 Longbows and 1 MI land next to Brighton as before. More navel bombardment redline a warrior. We have 15 foreigners in our territory.
Canterbury: Cav>Cav, Warwick: Uni>Cav.

880 AD (Turn 3): Bad news; CivAssist II notify that the Barbs enter the IA. We are going to need Cannons. All three cannons hit the target. Army takes the longbow free shot and kills Vknight, Baudices Army take out EKnight, 2 ECavs Kill the LB and MI. No GL. Workers are mining, roading and irrigating.

(BTW this is where I would have boot out Sumerian and annex more land. Also to who ever grouped up workers great idea:goodjob: - I will be using that now on)

IBT: Solo Knight lands. More bombardment. Coventry: Univ>Cav. Liverpool riots...CivAssist did not see it coming. Sumerians: Start Smith's. FA tell us about propaganda in Liverpool.

890 AD (turn 4): All 3 Cannons find the lone Knight and one of the ECav finish him off. No GL. More worker action and city mm. Moving Cav units south. Adjust Science to complete ToG next turn. If we get a GL, I will build Newton University. Trade Physics to Sumerian for 1317g, to Dutch for 29g, Music Theory and WMap , and to Theo for 9g and WMap.
IBT: More bombardment and foreign units are leaving. We enter IA. Using Big Picture, we trade: ToG to Gilgamesh for 407g, Economics, 1gpt and WMap. Printing Press to Inca for WMap and27g. Theology to Maya for 26g and WMap. Magnetism to Gilgamesh for 63gpt. Gift Theo to IA. They both get Medicine. :mad:
Steam Power in 9 turns. Birmingham flipped to Theo:mad: :mad: . We need culture. Both Theo and Gilgamesh is building Newton’s.

900 AD (Turn 5): Switching Cav in Liverpool to MoW. Workers, clearing, Irrigating and Mining.
IBT: Barb Knight land. London: Univ>Heroic Epic. York: Cav>Univ. Vilcas: Barracks>Cav. Dover/Leeds: Duct>MoW. Norwich: Lib>Univ.

910 AD (Turn 6): Two Cannons strike the Knight and a ECav kill him. Moving more Cav units to East.
IBT: 2 MI units land. Oxford: Market>Univ. Barbs start Newton.

920 AD (Turn 7): 3 cannons damage 2 MI. ECav kills first MI and generates a GL:D . I forgot C3C won't allow wonder rushing. So instead of Newton we are going to have a Military Academy in London. Second ECav kill the last MI.
IBT: London: Mil Acad>Heroic Epic. Theo Start Smith's.

930 AD (Turn 8): Dutch campaign begins. We declare and take Ultrech.
IBT: Hastings: Cav>MoW. Reading: Courthouse>Uni. Ollanta: Cannon>Temple.

940 AD (Turn 9): Worker action. Wait on the next attack.
IBT: Cori: Courthouse>Univ. Humonga: Market>Harbor. Warwich: Cav>Cav. Coventry: Cav>Coliseum.

950 AD (Turn10): Cavs took Rotterdam. I will stop here and let next player use the workers as he pleases.

Will write a summary in the morning. I... must.....sleeeeeep.;)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD0950_01.SAV

Tone (up next)
tao
DBear
Furiey
Htadus (just played)

2 AIs knowing medicine is not a problem, it is an opportunity. They will now research nationalism. We will be able to learn steam, trade it for medicine, and establish a tech lead, because our first man-of-war win (why are the so late in completion ???) will trigger our Golden Age.

Theory of Evolution is the goal.

Just couple of thoughts.

I think we should start Newton University to time with our Golden Age. It will come in handy later as we must race toward Amphebious Landing.

We should take a risk and send a settler with several pikes, cannons and Cav units to the south part of Barb continent, if for nothing else, just to secure one of the luxes and to draw barbs there. This will get their landings to stop and we will be able to start sending our units over. Most likely we will have to wait until end of our GA. Sooner the better.

I usually learn Replacable parts before I complete ToE. Do you think this is possible in this case?

@Tao. The MoW's are late in apperance since we were building Libraries and Universities which we realy needed. There should be about 3 in the next 5 turns. One will be ready in 3 turns. We should have our GA very soon.

Ok. I'm up next but I'm just about to go to work with a very long day ahead of me. I therefore will not be able to even look at this save until Friday evening. As usual, any suggestions in the meantime will be helpful.

Tone, I did not mention the defense at each city we took.

Ultrech had three defender and one of our cav units lost to a swiss mercenary. So it is possible they are in their GA.

The second city had two SM, vet and a reg. Also had a knight in a galley. Most likely there will be few more defenders in the cap. Good luck.

Ultrech had three defender and one of our cav units lost to a swiss mercenary. So it is possible they are in their GA.Dutch traits are seafaring, agriculture. They own Colossus, Hanging Gardens. Thus they already had their GA.

PS: Why don't we hurry a m-o-w to trigger our GA?

PPS: I would NOT send troops to Barbarian lands, unless we have at least rifles and lots of cannons to defend

A couple of things...

A while back Furiey was leaving Brighton empty as an AI bait. Why don't we do the same with Norwich or didn't it work? If not where are the barb landings centred around, Htadus? Have you seen any barb activity in the East of of continent.

Much, much longer ago, I thought that we discussed building another city between York and Warwick. There's an unused marsh fish there just for starters.

BIG POINT (IMO). Why are we trying to build things in those massively corrupt areas? I can understand culture on the borders but this surely is specialist farm area in the old Mayan and Dutch lands. I would just build settlers and flood the lands. I think that the court in Tikal is a waste and suggest that we switch to settlers. We should complete the courts elsewhere I guess but then build settlers and ICS the land around here.

Colosseum in Coventry?!! Are we building this due to the cultural threat that Sumeria pose? If so maybe they should be next on our hit list, but in any case I'd rather build more troops than a colosseum. We could lose our wines at any time. How about building the Heroic Epic there instead as it gives 4cpt and London can build troops? If we get another MGL in the very near future I'll use it to rush that?

Oh, I presume those foriegn troops will withdraw, and were just the AI response to barb landings. Yes?

When we get Steam, do we trade for Medicine or hold it and wait for evidence of AI research before trading it? Also, assuming that we trade for Medi at some point, we are roughly 18 turns from completing Sci Method if we head straight there. I suggest a partial rush on Uni at York plus chop the forests and then get a prebuild going there asap? With rails, we would end up getting one more tech in before completing ToE. (Assuming of course that we do actually have coal-I'll be gutted if we don't, given how much jungle we have.) My only worry is a wonder cascade. An alternative is to use London but it is only 17 turns from completing the biggest project we can give it (400 shields) and so I think we have to go with a Palace prebuild. (next bit deleted in quick edit-forgot about GA)

In the meantime let the AIs research their fav techs of Industry and Rep Parts?

I'll play at the weekend but I'd be interested in people's views on these points.

Edit: I forgot. @tao: I'd like to have a pair of MoW but we could rush them. Also agree on no overseas action yet!

A couple of things...

A while back Furiey was leaving Brighton empty as an AI bait. Why don't we do the same with Norwich or didn't it work? If not where are the barb landings centred around, Htadus? Have you seen any barb activity in the East of of continent.

All the landings were within 1 or 2 tiles of Brighton. Only action along east coast were bombardments next to the City at the tip of the small peninsula.

Much, much longer ago, I thought that we discussed building another city between York and Warwick. There's an unused marsh fish there just for starters.

It would be a productive city but will we be able to provide it with adaquate # of tiles?

Colosseum in Coventry?!! Are we building this due to the cultural threat that Sumeria pose? Yes


If so maybe they should be next on our hit list, but in any case I'd rather build more troops than a colosseum. We could lose our wines at any time. How about building the Heroic Epic there instead as it gives 4cpt and London can build troops? If we get another MGL in the very near future I'll use it to rush that? I am all for going after Sumerians. It will give us more productive cities. Less culture pressure. I also like the idea of building Heroic Epic there if we chose to not go after Sumeria.


Oh, I presume those foriegn troops will withdraw, and were just the AI response to barb landings. Yes? Yes. They have been comming and going to match Barb landings

When we get Steam, do we trade for Medicine or hold it and wait for evidence of AI research before trading it? I say no. I think that technology thieves work just like a great library. We should use pointy stick to get Medicine.

I forgot. @tao: I'd like to have a pair of MoW but we could rush them. Also agree on no overseas action yet!
I noticed Theo has managed a city in the south of the continent for at least 5turns so far. I think we have much to gain by getting a foothold in that continent. We would need to rush a barracks and a Harbor there.

It worked well leaving Brighton empty to focus the landings in that area, Norwich could be used now without rioting, or when the jungle is cleared perhaps Dover as it's more centrally located although it may take a while for troops already on route to finish landing, we can't really deal with landings at random places.

There's an Elite* Cav near Machu Piccu that could be used to fill the Army in the north.

The foreign troops ran into our territory every time the Barbarians landed, then out again when I defeated them.

The Byzantines hold an island city just off the coast, much easier to defend than a mainland one, once we get some MoW and can start to reduce the number of Barbarian ships it would be better for us to try the same, perhaps taking New Apache (hopefully keeping the Harbour or maybe the 2 tile island nearby.

Looking at the newly captured Dutch cities, it may be worth using the Governor for a bit to stop them rioting when the resisters are quelled.

The Technology Thieves do seem to work like the Great Library which means that the Barbarians already have Medicine, but will get Steam as soon as we trade. They'll get it soon enough anyway though so it may be worth waiting until the others have Nationalism and then trading while we research Electicity. We want to be in a position for ToE which means (with the Barbarian build rate) either having a prebuild going or a leader ready. I don't think we should delay getting ToE.

We are now strong to Sumeria and they still do not have Saltpetre, they have 14 turns left of paying us 1gpt, all other deals are past the 20 turns, so we could cancel when ready. Finish the Dutch on our continent first though which may take a bit longer as we seem to be very short on Cavs and our Army needs to heal.

Looking at the Courthouse situation, Utrect has one and is over 50% productive, so we should still get something, although Tikal will probably never produce enough shields and the situation will probably change as we get more cities closer to our Capitol.

There's some MM to be done eg: Copan can work the Forest for an extra shield and the Ollantay... entertainer could be a taxman or scientist, Brighton needs to work the Rocks etc. The Worker stacks also need sorting out to get them in multiples to do the task more efficiently.

I think it would be good to have some MoW, we need to start picking off the Barabarian ships and hence building up our navy with those we enslave ready for the eventual invasion. Rushing a couple would be worth it.

Playing at the moment.

@Hdatus: please stop putting units on automove. It has not caused any drastic problems (yet?) but I have found that I have had to switch things around when units have moved in the opposite direction to where I want them to go. In the middle of a war this is not good.

950 (0)
do some stuff with workers. Switch London to cav and mm for more commerce @ 20spt. Give Heroic Epic to Coventry. Empty Norwich as AI bait city. A few cavs move south. The elite* was on automove and so it will take an extra turn to get to the army in the north. York: I partially rush the uni (up to 120 shields) and then chop the forests around the city.

I notice that Vilcas has not got a Lib and so switch it from a cav.

Switch governor on in Rotterdam and hire starving taxmen in Utrecht. Also do various bits of mm elsewhere.

Rush MoW builds (using temples) in Dover and Leeds.

IT
Shores are bombarded by pirates. Dutch knight kills a wounded cav outside Rotterdam (2 resistors quelled).

Dover: MoW>temple. Leeds: MoW>MoW.

Sumerians are building Shakes. Propoganda in Newcastle-those barbs must have money to burn.

Sum has Nationalism-did they have that last turn?

960 (1)
Adjusting moods in Newcastle due to propoganda puts them on starvation rations.

First MoW bombards a pirate and then the other attacks. It loses 2 hp but it can hide under the healthy one and:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/start_of_GA.JPG
I go through and mm our cities now that we are in a GA. Cannot get Steam in one turn and so reduce sci to 60%.

Kill the Dutch knight but otherwise it's a time for cosolidation.

IT
A pirate enslaves our 4/4 MoW and then the slave kills the 2/4 MoW underneath it. Barbs land troops (1 pike and 1 MDI) near Rotterdam to join a Dutch MDI that also likes the look of this location. Swis merc looks to be haeding for apillage session with our horses near Cori.

London: Cav>Cav. Tiwanaku: Court>Lib.

resistance in Rotterdam ends.

970 (2)
Kill Rotterdam intruders with cavs (get an elite) but a lack of troops means that this halts the intended advance on Amsterdam.

Newcastle still on starvation for another turn. Reduce research to 50% with the aid of an additional couple of scientists.

IT
Only AI activity is more bombardment of our coastal cities.

Steam>Electricity (6 turns @ 100%)-we have coal.

Cuzco: Uni>Cav. Chichen: court>market. (Not happy with this but whilst we have a GA and curruption is lower...) York: Uni>Palace (ToE prebuild). Hastings: MoW>temple. Vilcas: Lib>temple. Liverpool: MoW>MoW.

Barbs have completed Shakes.

980 (3)
Rotterdam continues to employ starving taxmen. Utrecht switches to settler. Newcastle is no longer starving but still needs three clowns. That propoganda hit the city hard.

I move some troops towards Amsterdam. I also try to deal with the merc. The cav I sent in only wounds it before withdrawing. The new MoW move towards Brighton-the target of many pillaging attempts but I'll only use them in numbers against those pirates.

The majority of workers are around York to help speed up the ToE build with rails.

IT
Canterbury: cav>cav. Huamanga: harbour>Lib. Warwick: cav>cav. Lagartero: spear>harbour.

Byzantines and Sumerians switch to Newton.

990 (4)
Army attacks Amsterdam first, killing two 4/4 mercs but losing 7 hps. A standard cav then gets killed only reducing a merc to 3/4. next 4/4 withdraws after doing the same. Next 4/4 is reduced to 2 hp but kills another merc. Another 4/4 merc steps up so the army covers a withdrawal.

IT
London: cav>cav. Leeds: Mow>MoW.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Newton.JPG
This is bad news on the culture flip battle and another reason to attack them IMO. Trouble is that they'll have stacks of rifles now.

1000 (5)
Troops withdraw from Amsterdam and more join them in Rotterdam from our core.
CA tells me that we are very close to reducing the research time by a turn, so I rush the Uni in Newcastle.

IT
Barbs land at Vitcos-I didn't notice until now that the spear is not blocking the landing area. :( Merc that was close to horses has now healed and entered our territory.
Hastings: temple>cath. Newcastle: uni>court. Brighton: market>'duct. Also switch Liverpool to temple.

1010 (6)
With some tight mm I reduce the time for Elec down to 2 more turns. No sign of the price for Steam dropping.

Vitcos is lost so I gift it to the Sumerians rather than lose some cash. They turn gracious and we also get the spear in London. I kill the merc on our horses.

To get a MoW to where I want it cannot hop from one city to another and so all three of our MoW huddle together.

IT
The barbs drop some troops (2knights, 1 pike, 1MDI) off at Norwich. Dutch ask for a chat but we decline.
Cuzca: cav>cav. Palenque: court>market. Ollantaytambo: temple>market. Tikal: settler>settler.

1020 (7)
I deal with the barbs around Norwich but moving troops out of some cities almost loses us our faster research. I just manage to move a few units to keep us on track for Electricity next turn. The three MoW then kill the galleon plus two pirate escorts but no enslavements.

7 cavs plus one army approach Amsterdam.

IT
Electricity>???.

London: cav>cav. Tiwanaku: Lib>cath. Copan: Lib>Market. Canterbury: Cav>Cav. Warwick: Cav>Cav. Vilcas: temple>uni. Liverpool: temple>MoW. Dover: temple>market.

1030 (8)
The price that we can claim for Steam has now dropped with the both the Sumerians and the Byzantines so I decide that now is the time to trade. I get medicine, 21gpt plus a small amount of cash from the Sumerians. I also trade with the Byzantines to get Demo plus a little cash. Scientific Method in 4 @90%.

Attack on Amsterdam: The army loses 5 hp to kill a merc. 4/4 cav redlines a merc but loses. Another cav is redlined but kills a 4/4 merc to reveal a reg merc. Next 4/4 cav does nothing except avoid getting killed. Next one knocks 1hp from the reg then withdraws to reveal another 3/3 merc. Next cav also does the same but no more fresh defenders. Our final 4/4 just wins. The army beats the last 2/3 merc to reveal a 4/4 spear!!! The army beats the spear and up pops another. I send the elite in against it. It gains a flawless victory but yet another spear pops up. The army still has one hp left but their 4/4 merc will survive for next turn. The army wins and another 4/4 spear pops up. We have a 5/5 cav and a 5/13 army plus a small stack of 1/4 cavs. :hmm: I hope this war is worth it! I manage to get one more cav there for next turn

IT
Coventry: Heroic Epiv>Market. Leeds: Mow>MoW.

1040 (9)
The vet cav reduces the merc by one hp. The elite kills it off. The army is then lost against a spear. Sorry guys. (BTW it looks like there is one more spear in there) The stack of wounded cavs is under threat from a longbow so I send a 1/4 cav against it. I get the luck I wanted last turn, killing the longbow and getting a promotion.

I send the stack of MoWs in against a barb stack. I get three victories and a promotion but still no enslavement.

IT
Utrecht: settler>settler.
Byzantines now have Nationalism.
Volcano near Ollantaytambo is active.

1050 (10)
4/4 cav kills 4/4 spear in Amsterdam. the other 4/4 cav does nothing. 2/5 elite kills 4/4 spear and it looks like there is one unfortifies 4/4 left. I therefore send another 2/5 in and we get a couple of presents.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/leader.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Magellan.JPG

Final act: reduce research by 10%.

Notes:
I did not cancel/renew the deals as I thought that we do not want to tie ourselves down to another 20 turns and yet holding them for the moment means that we are less likely to face an attack whilst we are stretched.

I sure hope that The Hague is not such a tough nut to crack as Amsterdam was.

I've left you a settler and our MGL to move, tao. We can get London up to 40spt next turn; I was just concentrating on our ToE town first but we should have no problems winning that race.

I've put the governor on in Amsterdam as a temporary measure.

tao (up next)
DBear
Furiey
Htadus
Tone (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD1050_01.SAV)

I've got it and it looks good.

@Hdatus: please stop putting units on automove. It has not caused any drastic problems (yet?) but I have found that I have had to switch things around when units have moved in the opposite direction to where I want them to go. In the middle of a war this is not good.

Tone, I have yet to discover automove feature of the game except setting gathering points. And to the best of my knowledge that is not being used either.

As for the ECav*, he was heading east to join up with the rest of the assult force to take Dutch Capitol. I was certain we needed him there.

As for not filling up the army to current maximum with ECav*, did I imagine reading that someone did not like having the Army loaded due to transportation issues and advised DBear that was not a good Idea?:confused:

OK back to the quote. Tone, are you saying to move a unit just one turn at a time?

OK, perhaps automove is the wrong term but this is what I am refering to:
Ettiquette and Behaviour. (Guidance only)
4. Do not leave units on goto orders that extend beyond your set of turns. If for some reason this happens, then be sure to inform your team as to what the unit(s) is/are going.I'm not saying that you should move your units one turn at a time at the start of the ten turns-just towards the end. I know that you passed the save on slightly early but the changover is when plans are reassessed. I had looked at the save and noted which units still had movement points. To then return to the save and start executing the moves I want only to then see a unit moving somewhere else of its own accord is frustrating, and it's happened with several units on several of my opening turns.

With the cav and the cannon for this turnset, no damage was done. The point that I'm trying to make though is that a situation may arise where it is critical that the current player has full control over that unit so if you send a unit to a point beyond its range, at least let the next player know that is what you have done so that they have the chance to cancel that move and send it elsewhere.

Re: loading of cav. I have no memory of the instruction that DBear got-perhaps it was when we only had caravels?

I made the comment about loading the army after DBear played when we only have Caravels. I didn't load the 2nd Army fully as there weren't enough spare Cavs!

My current thinking is as follows:
We will learn scientific method in 2 turns. York has a Palace prebuild with 318 shields to go at 45 spt, i.e. 8 turns, with some mm and starving 7 turns till ToE.
We can do 900bpt allowing us to research replaceable parts (4200 beakers) comfortably in 5 turns.
Usually the free techs selected from ToE are atomic and electronics - going for Hoover. But we don't have a Hoover prebuild and we will need about 20 turns for it.
Thus I intend to use ToE heading for flight as we need it to invade the Barbarian continent: i.e. free techs industrialization and corporation. Hopefully we can finish this game with tanks.
Attacking Sumeria will delay our invasion by 10(?) turns and I don't want to do it. We may rethink this once we have tanks, but fighting them now allows the Barbarians to just get stronger.
Sumeria offers nationalism, ivory, 58gpt for electricity, coal, and incense. I suppose we get a little more when we renew the ongoing deals. IMHO an unresistable offer.

If the Sumerians have Nationalism that also means Rifles and we must keep our focus on what we need to do to defeat the Barbarians. As productive as those Sumerian cities would be for us, fighting Rifles with Cavalry would distract us from the main goal, better get tanks first, Tanks v Rifles gives much better odds and we could do the job quickly. So if we're not going to war with Sumeria now we might as well get what we can in trade.

I also agree with the reasoning re: Hoover. At the speed the barbarians can build we MUST have a prebuild ready for when we learn the tech or we will be beaten to it, and we do not want to face a Barbarian continent with the production bonus that Hoover gives. We need to get it and to do that we need to be prepared, but we are not at the moment so we need to control the research and avoid that tech until we are. Pity this isn't Vanilla or we'd be able to use that MGL for Hoover and not have to worry.

I notice that the Sumerains have taken back New Apache, so those island cities may not be that well defended if we wanted to get a foothold that way. Hopefully our MoW will start being a little more successful in the enslavement business.

As much as I'm concerned about the magnitude of Sumerian culture and the risk of key towns flipping, I cannot fault your reasoning.

I'm not able to look at the moment-have we any idea when this Technolgy Thieves becomes obsolete (if ever)?

I'm not able to look at the moment-have we any idea when this Technolgy Thieves becomes obsolete (if ever)?Is it possibel to look it up with the editor? Not that I ever started it ....

There's no mention of it becoming obsolete in the Civilopedia.

Looking at the trade options, it's worth considering Byzantines as well, they will currently give FA, Nationalism and WM for Electricity, without Nationalism on the table that gives Ivory, WM, 120 gold, 148gpt and FA from Sumeria. Obviously once we trade it the price from Sumeria will drop, but we would not need FA, and could still throw in coal/incense if needed to get the gpt back up again. It depends how much it depreciates though.

Yeah, that was my fault on the army. We didn't have galleons yet. Not that we were going overseas soon, the coast was swarming with barb pirates at the time.

Yes, we needed the Army onshore anyway so in this case it didn't matter.

Summary:
Golden Age is nearly over. We are about to learn refining. We landed on Barbarian shores.


0: 1050AD: settler 2sw founds Cambridge claiming goats; Wallace builds army and leaves town to avoid any flip risk. Trades:
Byzantine gives nationalism, FA for electricity; next we give them dyes to renew the alliance vs. Barbarians -> gracious
Sumeria gives ivory, 141gpt, 124g, wm for electricity, incense, coal, dyes, wm, alliance vs. Barbarians -> gracious (they also know communism)
Inca give 32g for wm
Maya give 11g for tm
sign embargo vs. Barbarians with Sumeria and Byzantine to strengthen relations
upgrade 3 muskets to rifles
go thru cities for some mm and tile shuffling
hurry university in Norwich for 216g

IBT nothing happens

1: 1060AD: workers work, troops heal
hurry temple in Richmond
another round of mm - I'm overdoing it, but I currently have the time and mood

IBT lots of Sumerian units move to Lagash - probably to be shipped overseas

2: 1070: we learn scientific method and start rep parts at 100% due in 5 turns; London switches to ToE due in 5 turns
Amsterdam resistance ends and it riots
volcano at Oxford erupts :( - luckily I started a harbor last turn
load cav army at Amsterdam; attack The Hague
army kills but is down to 3hp
cav retreats
cav dies
cav kills
ecav captures The Hague

IBT Byzantine and Sumeria sign an MPP

3: 1080: workers work, some mm

IBT Maya and Sumeria sign MPP

4: 1090: Sumeria gives 98gpt, 24g, wm for sci meth
Maya give 49g for alliance vs. Barbarians (we can't attack them, while they have an MPP with Sumeria)
Byzantine give 22g for wm

IBT Barbarians start ToE; propaganda upsets Leeds

5: 1100: workers work

6: 1110: peace with Netherlands getting wm, 12g

IBT Sumerians offer ROP, MPP - we trade maps instead

7: 1120: learn replaceable parts, upgrade rifles, cannons via Big Picture, go industrialization, complete ToE, learn industrialization, corporation

8: 1130: we send expedition corps in 5 galleons towards Barbarian shore (I intend a landing next to pop 2 Chehalis2 (ivory, iron, saltpeter close-by, no defense bonus for attackers; to be on the safe side, a settler is coming along incase it gets auto-razed after barbarian pop-rush

IBT Barbs sink one of our mows

9: 1140: revenge mow; workers work, ships sail

10: 1150: scouting mow sees 3 Barbarian workers next to Chehalis2 - nice: 3 slaves if we capture the city; regrettably we can't land in the ivory

drop 2 cav armies, ecav, 5 artilleries, 4 infantry, settler, worker on Barbarian shores. GOOD LUCK!

I would probably build(hurry) barracks before temple in Chehalis2. The Barbarians will attack in force and we have to heal our troops asap.

I decided to bring more defenders in the first batch of troops. More cavs should come with the next convoy. Probably the southern Barbarian towns are not so heavily defended, that we can't get them with a cav army and some cavs.

DBear (up next)
Furiey
Htadus
Tone
tao (just played)

The save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD1150_01.SAV)

Fast progress! I've only taken a look with CivAssist at the moment. I guess we are about to see the full might of the barb empire. If they have a high pop rushing abilty, there is a juicy size 12 town in the area that will crank out some opposition. Maybe we should er on the side of caution until we know exactly what we are up against. I also need to read up on those fearsome guard units.

Also don't forget about that strange flip we had a while back. We obviously cannot rely on CAII or MapStat; I assume that the flip was barb induced. We should therefore be very careful about leaving troops in cities as a single flip could be disasterous. Maybe we should raze more frequently than taking over enemy cities?

Maybe we should raze more frequently than taking over enemy cities?

I vote for not capturing any Barb cities. Raze. Raze. Raze. Goal is to finish them off and that means give them no chance of getting their cities back. The only reason to keep one is to draw their units for a well planned ambush. Lets bring in more infantry to our beach head.

@Team. Good job so far and lets get this barb problem under control.;)

Yes, we are making progress - albeit slowly. I also built 10 more workers, because we have a lot of railroads to build. Some more are due. I did not yet do any major woodwork, because it needs more worker turns than simple railroading. I gave preference to the core, the western part, and Tiwanaku. And I started a rr down the southeast. By creating some specialists and shuffeling mps, it was possible to bring some cities in wltkd - good for production and reducing flip risk.

A pity that Mayas and Sumeria signed an mpp. I was planning on going for Mayas next - and if only to raze Yaxchilan to give us slaves.

I still hope that the southern Barbarian cities have only about garrisons of 2-3 units. If we can get (some of?) the gems at Maastricht, the silks under New Cherokee2, and the furs at and under Zapotec2, we will have lots of happiness giving us a further big boost.

A problem I foresee is The Barbarians having ironclads. They will kill our mows and we will not be able to safely send troops over unless we learn flight.

I don't think we should bother with the Barbarian islands, but go for for the big cake. Let the AIs fight the petty fights.

PS: I just saw Htadus' post. The problem is that we can't produce settlers fast enough, because we need our pop. And we need more cities to have more free units. Thus I also built 2(?) granaries. Barbarian culture is weak in the south, and if a city flips, we will take it back IMHO.

A problem I foresee is The Barbarians having ironclads. They will kill our mows and we will not be able to safely send troops over unless we learn flight.I could be wrong in this game but ironclads is rarely researched IMO, so I think that we'll be safe for a while yet. We'll have access to destroyers soon as well.

Barbarian culture is weak in the south, and if a city flips, we will take it back IMHO.Yes, but barb culture was even weaker on our continent. We had a town full of English natives, well away from barb borders, flip to them.:eek: I'm just saying that they standard rules of culture flipping are perhaps suspended for the barbs-perhaps it is espionage activity. IMO we need to keep our eyes on the situation and be ready to adapt. If we keep getting flips, we'll be wasting troops and we may need to consider only take cities that are particularly useful to us. Taking a couple of towns will save a couple of gpt in unit upkeep but these will need to be covered in case of flips. In some cases it will simply not be worth it IMO.

Our objective is to wipe out the Barbarians whilst not letting the other Civs win by other means before then. We therefore do not need to keep cities unless they are useful to us, and production is not the only method by which a city can be useful. I believe the flip was due to Barbarian propaganda. We appear to be having approx 1 load of propaganda per 10 turn set, only 1 of which has caused a city to flip, I therefore wouldn't worry about it too much and keep cities when they are useful. Initially it would probably be worth keeping the cities to help with unit upkeep and as specialist farms as this would prevent the Barbarians moving to quickly through our territory and allow us to pick them off - maybe we even build more cities inbetween so we have a solid front. As we move further into their core and their city numbers reduce then razing would probably be more appropriate as we should be moving quickly by they and they would not have time to refill the gaps.

edit: once we have Lupaca 2 we will hopefully be able to funnel all the attacks into the chokepoint.

Downloaded the save, will probably be Friday before I can play.

Just to let you all know, I'm going to be away and internetless from 24 July to 8 August. Going to Egypt :D

A couple of quick questions:

Should we switch to commie?

Why do we have so many obsolete units; what should we do with them?

Should we switch to commie? I'm no expert on communism but I'd say no. Our empire is not large enough and only our core is developed, so surely we want a government that favours smaller empires with a strong core. We're at war so Monarchy is the best bet. Have you investigated what would happen using CAII?

Why do we have so many obsolete units; what should we do with them?MPs can be obsolete and serve their purpose.

The obsolete units are Military Police to keep the cities happy, an obsolete unit can do that as well as a modern one so there's little point in spending lots of gold upgrading, as long as we have enough modern units at home to repel invaders.

Don't know about Communism, it's much better in C3C than Vanilla, but I would guess it would be later rather than sooner that we change, I wouldn't have thought we were large enough yet. What does CivAssist say would happen?

edit: x-post with Tone

Should we switch to commie?Definitely no - we need/want to cash-rush.
Why do we have so many obsolete units; what should we do with them?We use them as military police (effective in monarchy: up to 3 per city) to prevent riots while we go 0% lux. Once we claimed more luxuries on the Barbarian continent, we may disband some to gain shields necessary in speeding productions.

Edit: also cross-posting :)

CivAssist II gives a 5% advantage to communism over monarchy.

If we expect 5 turns of anarchy, we need 100 turns just to break even. Another reason for no government change.

Good response rate, team. :goodjob: We're backing you all the way, DBear!

Civ assist is not what I'd have expected but I don't think that it's worth the revolution time. Views?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/commie.JPG

I don't think it's worth it yet. Let's get a bit bigger and out of our Golden Age and see what the difference is then. We can't cash-rush once we're in communism. It may be interesting to see what a Secret Police HQ on the Barbarian continent would do.

DBear, I once played around going back and forth between Commie and Monarchy as India. Basically, we can get more units built faster in the far away cities but both the productivity of core cities and the research rates really suffered. Since we do not have the religeous aspect, we should not go commiunist route. The productivity loss is not much when you consider the gains in remote cities but we need to be able to research fast.

:thanx: for the response, gang. I'll try to get this done Saturday.

5 down, 5 to go

We're lookin' good. The end of the GA hasn't hurt us at all, only a slight delay in research. Our beachhead is established, a size 12 Barb city got razed, and I got another leader, who made a cav army. The only bad news so far is that we have no oil. There's some just inside the Byzantine border, but there is also some we can take from the barbs. Will play this out later, busy tonight.

1. 1160: Chichen Itza worker-->worker. London factory-->army. London is producing 52 shields/turn. Copan temple-->rax. Canterbury infantry-->cav. Liverpool worker-->factory. William the Conqueror's army takes Chehalis 2 (had only 2 rifles). I try to keep it and build a quick rax to repair our units. Upgrade treb to arty.

2. 1170: Utrecht settler-->lib. Coventry infantry-->factory. Norwich arty-->settler. Leeds manowar-->manowar. GA ends. Cashflow still good, but need another turn for refining. Rush rax in Chehalis. Boudicea's army razes Maastricht, redlined. Upgraded leadermaker sword to guerilla. Load galleys up for second wave of invasion.

3. 1180: Learn refining, start steel. Chichen Itza worker-->settler. York factory-->exchange. Huamanga manowar-->temple for happiness. Newcastle arty-->rax. Oxford manowar-->infantry. Chehalis 2 rax-->temple. Exeter worker-->worker. Production in Hastings sabotaged. Bad news--no oil! There is some just inside the Byzantine border by Nicaea. Rush temples in the former Dutch cities. Barbs have oil near New Zapotec. Chehalis 2 renamed Beachhead. Leet cav attacks knight and gets Cornwallis!

4. 1190: Amsterdam temple-->grain. Rotterdam temple-->court. Hague temple-->harbor. Cory arty-->infantry. Cambridge temple-->rax. Second wave shipped next to Beachhead.

5. 1200: York cav-->Pentagon. Canterbury cav-->cav. Warwick arty-->factory. Norwich settler-->settler. Reading arty-->cav. Razed New Anisazi 2, 2 of my armies redlined. Rush temple in Beachhead. Sell education for 34 + 7gpt to the Mayans, keep that cashflow up. Trade WM with Sumeria, getting 8 for it. Rush factory in Cuzco. Rush harbor in Lagartero.

6. 1210: Barbs get serious and wage a counterattack killing off my cav outside New Lupaca 2. Cuzco factory-->infantry. Vilcas cav-->cav. Lagartero harbor-->lib. Beachhead temple-->harbor. Gloucester founded.

7. 1220: Barbs land cav outside Beachhead. Ollan arty-->arty. Huamanga temple-->manowar. Leeds manowar-->manowar. Reinforce Beachhead and rush a harbor.

8. 1230: Our former Dutch towns expand. Newcastle rax-->infantry. Brighton lib-->arty. Norwich settler-->rax. Beachhead harbor-->infantry. A propaganda campaign upset Liverpool. Renew deal w/Byzants, but for considerably less per turn.

9. 1240: Chichen Itza settler-->manowar. Copan rax-->cav. Canterbury cav-->infantry. Rush infantry in Gloucester.

10. 1250: Learn steel, start combust. Cuzco infantry-->infantry. Tiwanaku uni-->infantry. Palenque aqua-->infantry. Reading cav-->cav. Beachhead expands.

We have another leader, but we have to get him to Beachhead safely. An army is set to form next turn in London. Join the cav to it and deploy it. Also try to set up the bottleneck outside Lupaca 2. And get us that oil near New Zapotec! Also, we are running a slight trade deficit. Sumeria has money, decide what we want to give them, 'cause the barbs will get it too. Good news, according to CivAssist they have no rubber. We have turn the tide, team, but much more remains to be done.

Furiey (up next)
Htadus
Tone
tao
DBear (just played)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/tao_SG010_AD1250_01.SAV

Good going DBear, I can't look at the save right now but will look tomorrow and post comments then. Looking at the screenie though it looks like there are a lot of Barbarian troops to deal with, which include Infantry, therefore they must have Rubber somewhere, we just can't see it yet hence CivAssist won't include it. Either that or they're trading for it.

Yes. As they are at war with everyone, there must be rubber in that black hole in the north. We may soon find ourselves coming to a halt until we have tanks. That looks like a couple of massive SoD in the screenie.

In the meantime maybe our presence on the continent will help our allies.

I almost wonder whether to use the leader for an Infantry Army to blockade the route from Lupaca2.

Very good progress indeed. What we now need are more troops. IMHO London should stop building armies - we get them from Leaders. Instead it can build more infantry.

More railroads are due - also in core cities. And on the Barb continent, we will connect the gems - happiness. :)c

Looking at the save:

The Barbarian SOD is mostly old troops, but there are a lot of them, sheer numbers will make it difficult to repel them all. I'll get London and the other cities back on troops as soon as the current Army and Factory builds are complete.

Tradewise, Barbarians have Infantry so they must already have Replaceable Parts. Sumerians will currently give us 63gpt (all they have) for it plus their cash and a WM, but there is a 98gpt deal that will expire in 4 turns. It may be worth waiting until that deal expires to trade. Alternatively trade Replaceable Parts now then Industrialisation (for which we could currently get the same gold plus Communism) when the 98gpt deal expires.

I'll wait for comments before playing

I'm tempted to say wait four turns (unless the price starts to drop). If the worst comes to the worst, we should still be able to get all that cash for one tech, even if they discover RepParts. The only danger is if another civ gets that gpt from them first-is that likely?