Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 1 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170295) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

This first SGOTM will not feature any advanced variant.. the winner simply will be the team that wins the game at the earliest game date with either domination or a diplomatic victory. All victory conditions are still enabled though, with exception of Space Race, so you have to avoid getting another type of victory (and of course prevent the AIs from winning).

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of May 12.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM01_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Hapshepsut of Egypt
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Mystery
Game Speed - Epic

Permanent Alliances are turned on (can form permanent alliances after either communism or fascism is researched)
Space race is disabled.
Egypt is locked into war with Huayna Capac of the Incas.
Egypt is locked into peace with an unknown civilization.

The map is hand built, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization4 v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award - the Gold Laurels.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by either domination or diplomacy.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Good luck to your team, and remember rule #1: Enjoy your game :D

Checking in and starting to think about the roster.

I'm think about letting Dynamic to start. These first moves are important.

So, the roster is:

1. Dynamic
2. Ptitsa Consul
3. Witan
4. akots
5. EsatP
6. Obormot
7. Lexad
8. Cat Behemoth

If any objections to the roster, please say so.

The speed is epic, so Dynamic can play 30 turns imho and then next player can play 10 or 20 depending on what will happen. Then we go with either 10 or 20 turns for number 3 and then, may be switch to more conventional 10 turns.

Checking in :cool:

I don't really care about the roster and i think during the first rotation whoever feels like playing should take the save and play.

The first turns are importnat, but we have already discussed them in great detail and now we just have to implement the calculations from Witan's spreadsheet into the game itself. I'll do the comparison between warrior first and worker first as i promised (was a little busy), though i am sure that warrior first slows us down greatly.

Edit: your roster is fine with me too.

This approach usually ends up in nobody actually playing and we don't want that. Let's try to organize things first. We will see how it goes from that point.

I'm in.
OK, I can start the game. I also wait for Obormot's test before starting.

The save will be released on 12th IIRC.

Cat Behemoth was here. :)

Ptitsa Consul here!

I'm second! Aaaa! I'm shocking... But, I think, my team helps me :)

I'm here too. Is it 20 turns or 10 turns per player?

Btw, new info different from my previous starting location model: 3w2n from settler tile seems to be shore. 3n2w might be also, although I'm not too sure.

The main question which has to be decided upon, do we play Diplomatic or Domination? Is it a careless conquest game or research-based approach? To decide this, we need to know is it a continents map and requires Astronomy or is it more similar to a Pangea map?

I understand the reluctance of the authors of the scenario to tell us that much but we cannot decide firmly what path should we follow without knowing it.

I sincerely hate these kinds of situations and it is more of a gamble than strategy planning here. So, either we make some intelligent quess after first 30-40 turns or we would just have to vote and thus decide on how we will be playing the game.

Well as i said i'm almost sure that astronomy is required for domination here. In this case domination and diplomatic are both played the same way in the very begining and after we explore a bit we'll be able to make a choice based on the number of civs on our continent.

Agree with Obormot here. Both styles require tech development which goes pretty much the same till Civil Service at the least.

Btw, when I enter as guest I can read the team forum. Is it supposed to be so or can other teams spy on us this way?

And how much turns do we want for 1 player? AlanH said it's up to the team to decide.

The team threads are open for viewing, but people here trust each other.

20 turns for the first player and 10 turns after has been the standard for civ3. In civ4 the openings play a little slower, especially on epic speed, so we might want to give the first player 30 or 40 turns.

@Lexad: Don't even think about it. If somebody looks into other threads, they will be caught regardless of their login with a name or as a guest. ;)

As I said previously, first player plays 30 turns, second 20, third 20, and then we will see how it goes.

I'm not as sure as you are that Domination on this map requires Astronomy. I don't know why you have decided that.

I went through a painful research struggle in GOTM4 (India) only to find out that this was not needed and the game could have been finished with horse archers and swordsmen on a few galleys a thousand years earlier. ;)

Let's look at the best finish dates:
GOTM 5 - Don't think it is relevant since Warlord level leads to somewhat weird games, we might better just disregard it
GOTM 4 - Domination 960AD (1605AD next result), Diplo 1640AD (continents but can be reached with galleys)
GOTM 3 - Domination 800AD, Diplo 1300AD (pangea)
GOTM 2 - Domination 1330 AD, Diplo 1260 AD (pangea with lots of lots of land and tricky pathfinding, also with lots of ice)
GOTM 1 - Domination 1260 AD, Diplo 1410 AD (Continents requiring Astronomy)

So, overall, Domination is somewhat slightly more rapid on a map even when one needs Astronomy. Besides, we will be at peace with some civ which is not disclosed and might be they have to be reached after Astronomy is discovered.

So, even if we need Astronomy, Domination should be slightly more rapid.

It's somewhat of a galley gamble here, agreed. Also, UU calls for early wiping out of some neighbours. But if we still wish to get astronomy, our starting tech path should be pretty much the same for both strats, at least for the first 2,5K years. That was my point, and I didn't take it from any other team thread, swear :)

Well, making a race with both diplo and domination allowed simply doesn't make any sence on a pangaea/galleys map. Domination would obviously be faster. But on continents with astronomy required both come at about the same time. And turning permanent alliance on in a game that can be finished long before doesn't make much sence too. Unless evil Gyathar wants to confuse us of course.

We do need to explore our continent soon and maybe build a few early galleys to look for a safe passage just in case, but we cannot afford to slow down our research rate unless we really find that domination without astronomy is possible.

... Unless Gyathar wants to confuse us of course.
...

Oh, I'm sure he would love to. :lol:

What about me, I prefer dyplo. So much flood plains - cottages. (I like cottages :) ) Science could be very fast.

But I think that akots is wright - domination will be faster (if another continent will be able for conquesting :) )

OK, i've done the comparison between worker first and warrior first and it looks like building a warrior is not that bad as I expected. We get about the same number of shields and beakers by turn 50. Cottage growth is slowed down quite a bit though.

I calculated 3 different scenarios: worker at size1 + build 2 cottages before pasture, worker at size2 + build 2 cottages before pasture and worker at size 2 + build the pasture before cottages. I didn't do the one where we build a worker first and then build the pasture since it is obviously weaker because of idle worker turns. Of course we can build the pasture earlier or later in each case depending on whether we'll need more shields or not (for worker stealing or defense from incans if they are close).

The main question here is whether we are willing to take the risk of startштп a worker at size 1 or not. We gain about 20 turns of cottage growth with the same worker build sequence. That is about 1-2 beakers per turn.

Very interesting question: what we must to do with our abstract hammers? Barracks?

Maybe a few warriors for defense from incas if we meet them or for worker steals and then start library? I am not sure how fast will we get Writing though.

Very interesting question: what we must to do with our abstract hammers? Barracks?

Warriors imho. At least 2 extra (one more to scout and another to sit in the capital.

I know, I'm not good at that since I find many of the risks which most of GOTM players accept willingly as unacceptable. So, unless there are Inca nearby, might be barracks is a viable option.

OK, i've done the comparison between worker first and warrior first and it looks like building a warrior is not that bad as I expected. We get about the same number of shields and beakers by turn 50. ...

Let's wait for Dynamic to start and he can then decide because there are a few tiles to reveal which are very important. May be, there is something else on the map near the start.

I think, warriors, because Inca is sure to scout with one of is starting archers (and latter quechua with Combat I upgrade) - to stop him from destroying our precious cottages, we'll have to bury it under the pile of warrior corpses. That's why I think we should think of early chariots/axemen if enemy is near whatever victory type we choose.

Mmmm... What about barbs? Are they on or off? Or it's a secret before the start?

Barbarians should be default which means normal. No big problem on Monarch usually.

Very interesting question: what we must to do with our abstract hammers? Barracks?

IMHO we must buid warriors (more than 1).
1. We need to discovery map + may be look in Tribal Village.
2. In start worker can't do anysing (road no consider).

Than lets build Worker and Settler (or 2 Settlers? - if near we have 2 good places for cites)
After this - Library (more virtual with Cottages and let grow Great Scientist)

About sciense:
1. Pottery (for Cottages)
2. Animal Husbandy (Pasture & Horses)
3. Mining (for some production in capital)
4. Writting (Lab + Open borders)

If we start researching pottery as soon as we settle we'll get pottery at the same time as we complete building the worker, so we'll be able to build cottages immidiately. As i said we loose about 20 turns of cottage growth if we build warrior first.

Is EsatP planning to join you? I haven't seen him post in the signup thread or here. Please let me know if he's still on your team.

I'll ask EsatP to post something to confirm.

Hate to double post - but can't reach the forum when at work, have to post in the Russian.

How about we try to shoo Huayna by 1-2 warriors near his capital. He will hide his workers, draw back his scouting archer and thus slow down development and decrease threat to our capital. That is, if he is close :)

Barbarians should be default which means normal. No big problem on Monarch usually.

Of course not big problems. I just think that if barbarians are present - no need to build early barracks. Barbs can be used for promoting warriors. :rolleyes: If warriors remain alive. :rolleyes:

Ok, Dynamic can start whenever he feels like it! Time to do some :hammer: and then more :hammer: and a little more :ar15: and :sniper: and then we win and can :dance:

That is the main plan for the game.

If we start researching pottery as soon as we settle we'll get pottery at the same time as we complete building the worker, so we'll be able to build cottages immidiately. As i said we loose about 20 turns of cottage growth if we build warrior first.

Thank's for calculation MM in Capital - very interesting information. But, lets look on other aspects of game.

I think, that we must start production from Warrior(s):
Only one science, that we can found in Tribal Village is more useful than some extra-commerce from Cottages.
And, secondly, We need to discovery map to found Incas, to understanding what type of map we have.

Let's begin.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SGOTM01_CFR_3970BC_Centre.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SGOTM01_CFR_3970BC_Centre.jpg)
I founded capital on the plain hill and sent Warrior to the SE for discovering coast. I didn't choose science yet so we can think a little bit about starting position. I'll continue after about 1 hour. If We need more time I can save the game.

First note - 4s3w from the capital the border of trees seems very sparce - as if there is a hut in cell's centre. And it seems to be jungle as it doesn't merge with nearby wood.
Second note - with clam and rice and extra wood we can get additional 3 health (4 if we get clam by the next city and build a granary). Thus, happiness becomes limiting. Early religion might be an option now, as proposed by Agamemnum - or at least sooner Code of Laws.

Thinking in process...

By the way, is the thing to the right whale or fish? Can't see clearly.

Third note: good place for second city is SE from cows in SSE from capital - intrinsic health of (4-2) if there are no more woods/jungles/flood lains in the vicinity. Overlaps capital 2 floods, thus being able to work its cottages. It seems there is enough good land to make ring of cities round first working its cottages and lowering distance upkeep.
Fourth note: you know how to get great whom for rushing what at the finish :) It's easier now!

I don't think that the rice tile without irrigation is worth being worked, so i suggest we use the worker sequence we have discussed before the game: learn pottery then AH. Number of cottages we build before the pasture depends on what we find. I am fine with both building the warrior first and worker first. We may connect rice for extra health, but that is not urgent imho, we'll still grow fast (our research will be limited by the speed at which worker builds cottages, not by growth speed at the start).

I think we should head straight to bureaucracy slingshot. We already have agriculture at the start, so we don't need to research it. Connecting clams is not urgent, but even if we decide to do it, fishing won't take long to research.

Once in bureaucracy we should chop the piramids :)

Agree, esp. about bureaucracy - but maths first.:) And if we go for diplo, save 1-2 engineers :)
5th note: on grass hills cottages, not mines. We have enough food to cottage everything aroung capital and 1 food left (2 if spread irig to rice).

OK, I'm ready to wake up and continue. I'm still worried for hammers usage.
The good production sequence is Worker(18), Warrior(11), Warrior(11), Settler(15) at size 3, Library.
Science: Pottery-Animals-Writing.
Worker: Cottage-Cottage-Pasture then will see.

Why do you want to build the settler at size 3?

Since we have permanent war I think that the first our production should be warrior.

PS. Oh my god! It's seems too late...

Don't worry :) I bet the incas are far away so that the game is not affected by the RNG that much. And ew also have our starting warrior :rolleyes:

Why do you want to build the settler at size 3?
As I see it:
It comes 2 turns before 2nd warrior built, so you lose almost no time on popping up while producing. If enemy is near, we need fast city on horses/copper to fight with his quechua/archers.

As I understand, we put pasture 3rd because still 3 turns to AH left. If we put warrior first, though, it might have been an option.

Don't worry :) I bet the incas are far away so that the game is not affected by the RNG that much. And ew also have our starting warrior :rolleyes:

OK. Then I bid they are close to us. And no more worries in any case. :)

I decided to build Capital on the Plain Hill SW from start because of 2 hammers core and Cow is available. I choose way for science boost as universal method. Of course later we could change it depend on situation.

3970BC - Thebes has been founded. Warrior go to SE on the coast (see Fish and Clam) then along this coast to the SW direction
3850BC - The borders of Thebes have expanded, see NW sea...
3820BC - see Sugar
3700BC - Lion and Wolf on the East... Our lands looks like thin vertical continent. Warrior go South.
3580BC - contact Russian on the SW neck.
3550BC - Pottery has been discovered, start Animal Husbandry
3520BC - Russian borders have been reached. No Worker. Go SW.
3430BC - No way for Warrior - go back and try East. Thebes built Worker - go E and build Cottage.
3280BC - No way for Warrior on the East from Russia. Have to wait for Writing.
3220BC - First Cottage was built. Warrior go around Russian borders to the West.
3190BC - Worker start second Cottage on SE.
3100BC - Thebes is size 2 now (2 FP), Warrior 2 was built, start Warrior 3. Warrior 2 go NW because of Lion on NE.
3070BC - Warrior 2 on the coast (NW), see Fish
3040BC - Animal Husbandry has been discovered, start Writing. Horse appears near Russia. Warrior 2 go NE and see new Cow - double Cow in this place.
A Forest has grown near Thebes!
3010BC - Buddism gas been founded somewhere, Warrior 2 discovered Horse near the north Cows!
2080BC - Second Cottage was built.

This is my last turn (35). I cross 3000BC so it's enough for first session.
So, we met only one civ, but there are other lands on SE and SW from Russian Capital how big are its - unknown. Land to the North is not discovered yet but looks like tundra, so this is probably North part of our continent.
We have Stone and Horse near start position and this is good. Now I'm not so sure about second city position. Place on the North looks very nice...

On the next session I suppose we need to build Pasture on the Cow(6) and after Warrior 3 start Settler(15), then Library. Writing will be discovered in 12 turns.

Next science must be discussed and Worker job also. Warrior 1 go South after Open Borders, Warrior 2 go N along the coast and back. Somewhere in the fog exists wild animals so we need choose tiles carefully.
Thebes borders will expand after 5 turns.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CFR_SG001_BC2980_01.Civ4SavedGame

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SGOTM01_CFR_2980BC_North.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SGOTM01_CFR_2980BC_South.jpg

Sweet!
As I understand, we can have a look at the position, but make no moves which could give hints to player.

Edit: looked at the map - seems much like fractal, there could still be plenty of land to the north.
The Russians must die. 3 gems, sugar (+food), ideal place for commerce city or GP farm.
I would completely agree with Dynamic about North place for the city, perhaps SE from horses: 5 floods, 2 cows, horse. Getting further North would give us too much tundra.
I think, if no unexpected circumstances arise, we can start war 15-20 turns after the 2nd city is founded - to utilise our UU while we can. As the capital is planned to become our scientific centre (as I understand), we should till first horses, and then cows aroung 2nd city wich will produce chariots while the 1st develops. This will give us 3rd city w/o settler :)

Summing up: great start!

Why do you want to build the settler at size 3?
Because we haven't real building now and have good places for cities. Size 4 and 5 added only 1 food each to Settler production. And, this sequence not loses any hammers.

And, don't forget that any resourse stay available 1 turn before Worker timing for this improvenent. So, don't forget to change citizens job in time.

How high will the maintenance cost be if we capture Moscow? And can chariots actually move through jungle, or does it work the same way as in civ3?

Dynamic's build sequence looks good, an early settler might be a good idea given the great city locations around the capital, but I am still not completely convinced, just hate to delay working cottages. Have to think about it some more. If we do build a settler we'll also need a worker sometime soon to synchronise growth and cottaging.

BTW the continent looks quite small so diplo might be the faster way to go. Well, I don't know really, since I don't have that much experience with civ4. We should also look for a safe galley passage. Thing are a bit tricky here since galley movement depends on culture. Does anybody know of a reliable method to find out if there is a passage or not?

As I presume, after pop 3 for 1 of 2 turns while warrior is building and pasture isn't ready, the 3rd citizen should go to flood plain as w/o writing we have not much use for spare hammer (which might decay) but would rather have another food, and the next turn - to cow as the pasture is finished?

As for the next science - as we didn't take the religious route, do we go to CoL through maths (good!) and currency (goood!!)? The only drawback - route is rather long and we're bound to lose Oracle to comps.
The route Myst-medit-priest takes 422 bulbs (less than maths cost!) and brings us to the same CoL. If we go for CS-slingshot - shich is nerfed in 1.61, haven't still tried it here - we'd rather take this route first. Whad do grand minds think?

Afterthought - if we capture Moscow, maybe we should put BW and IW somewhere in the line (phaps after CS) to grab sugar and gems in the jungle?

How high will the maintenance cost be if we capture Moscow?
They have a gem mine there = 2/1/7(!). It will do ;)

About jungle movement - only mongolian keshiks ignore terrain.

One more afterthought - both Thebes and Moscow stand on hills. This gives any defender stationed in Belokamennaya additional +25% defence bonus, so grab an extra chariot or 2 to improve the odds :)

And a big risk idea - if russians do not build their 2nd city to the North, why don't we build NE from horses near them? At pop 2 the city will have 1+3+2 = 6 hammers = chariot almost every 6 turns! And after 9 more turns (pop 3) the mine can give us additional 3 hammers to a chariot almost every 4 turns! At the start the 2-3 citizens is all that matters (a mine on the hill will help, and the road towards horses can be built before the settler arrives. As we have only 1 builder and expect to have no more for some time, we won't be able to build the road towards Moscow from the northern horse city. Bringing unit factory towards enemy will save us 9 movement turns.
Drawbacks:
1. Distant - upkeep higher
2. Settler has to reach it - spend additional turns, means later development
3. Has to be no jungle on horses or russian city :)
4. Growth is limited till IW
5. Has to be protected against sudden counterattacks.

On the second thought - not that good idea. If it was bronze - maybe, but horses - hardly. Still, I might miss some points.

Why do you think that CS slingshot was nerfed? Did i miss something about the new patch?

Not slingshot itself - sorry if cofused anyone - but coupled with pyramids (for caste+representation and bureaucracy) as representation gives less happiness.

Awful thought - what if we're locked in peace with Russians?!! How to check this? War proposal option pops up in the diplomacy.

About jungle movement - only mongolian keshiks ignore terrain.


As I understand the question was not about ignoring terrains. But about possibility for chariots to move on jungles. In civ3 they can't. But no problems for them in civ4.

Distance maintainance for Moscow seems to be just 2 gold.

OK, then i think attacking them early is a good idea. But we'll need IW to utilize the other 2 gems. And i would first build 2 cities close to Thebes for cottage sharing.

The CoL->bureacracy slinghot is still great and the sooner we start getting bonus beakers, the better. We'll also be able to chop piramids very quickly with stone and bureacratic bonus. I would take the shortest possible path. We can build the Oracle using mines without chopping even without marble.

It takes only comps that long to find copper ;) We should decide then on war timing. Once we see a worker building a mine on a bare land we know we're late with chariot rush.

All the rest strat - unanimously :D

If we are going to kill russians, I think that we can try to steal their worker. May be we direct our warrior close to corn and capture worker if he will try to farming it?

Looks good.

EsatP dropped out of the roster.

Roster:
1. Dynamic - Just played, great start
2. Ptitsa Consul UP
3. Witan - Prepare to go
4. akots
5. Lexad
6. Obormot
7. Cat Behemoth

Next player (Ptitsa Consul) should take 20 turns.

It seems that Dynamic have clearly outlined the plan for these turns.

I think after Writing, there should be Alphabet and then CoL and Civil Service from Oracle if possible. It is hard to say if this is possible however. It is also not known how many AIs are on this landmass. If there are too few, then Alphabet is rather useless. We would have to go for Priesthood then instead of Alphabet. So, big question mark in this case.

We will certainly be able to build Pyramids.

Is EsatP planning to join you? I haven't seen him post in the signup thread or here. Please let me know if he's still on your team.

Indeed, EsatP dropped off. He will not be playing in this one. :sad:

UP, UP....

I've got save.
But I'm not understand our general strategy clearly (for my 20 turns). I'm not great player and I can crash our Great Game if I understand it bad...
I can't be online very much I connect to us at Moscow's evening 13th of May, read, ask, go and send MY save to morning of 14th...

Sorry for all...

PS
Some questions:
1. Can I open save, see and do nothing close it andthink about... Is it legal?
2. In which place I must put MY save?

PPS
Yes, I,m stupid, sometimes...

That is OK, no big deal.

Just to make sure what to do:

On the next session I suppose we need to build Pasture on the Cow(6) and after Warrior 3 start Settler(15), then Library. Writing will be discovered in 12 turns.

Next science must be discussed and Worker job also. Warrior 1 go South after Open Borders, Warrior 2 go N along the coast and back. Somewhere in the fog exists wild animals so we need choose tiles carefully.

Also, if you meet at least 2 more other civs (excluding Inca), then we might need Alphabet. If not, from Writing you might go to some other tech leading to priesthood.

Good, all right. I'm disconnect now :)

Attempting to steal a worker is tempting. But then our exploration will be blocked off. It looks like there might be some more land to the south of Moscow and perhaps another AI, especially if the map is hand made. As i said we need to explore early in this game to decide what our goal is. So i would say wait for Writing and then move south with Open Borders.

I think we should go directly to Bureaucracy and skip Alphabet to reduce the risk. Even if it allows us to get a few techs that we would have otherwise researched on our own (which may not be the case with only one neighbour) it won't be much and getting bureaucracy earlier adds up some bonus beakers too.

To Cat Begemoth: It's not Corn, It's Sugar near Moscow, so it will not used till Calendar.
I doubt that very early attack is good idea - realy it spend a big time. As was noted before we need Open Borders and explore South. Our Warrior must go on the West coast (couple of steps) because in other case it will be teleported to when Russian borders will grow. Worker - Pasture and then 3-d Cottage N from Cow. Then may be Road between rivers on NE. Tech - Mysticism after Writing. Warrior 2 along the coast - circle.
Don't forget set 3-d citizen on Flood Plain first then, 1 turn before Warrior 3 - on Cow.

Maybe if we could see expected location of the 2nd city more clearly we could decide on our further strategy better? What if Whte Hawk makes several moves by the warrior and then posts a screen so that people can advise him on city location?

Dynamic, what is yor proposed war timing? I believe that 2nd city could be used solely for the purpose of chariot production, while capital continues to build whatever you would've built otherwise. If we put the 2nd city SE from horses, the river will counter the flood plains disease, and its own pastured cow will increase it.

By the way, that is why I would propose to start developing the 2nd city not by building the road between rivers - both cities would have worked cows by the river, so nothing to share really (that is, if we dn't use capital to build chariots) - but by pasturing the cow NNNE from capital - will be in our cultural borders in 5 turns. The road will come in later.

A tip - whenever moving your worker by 2 tiles to new building place, consider stopping him at the first and building useful improvement - and then cancelling work the same period. You would still start cultivating your initial destination tile only the next turn, but the game will remember the work hours, and later it would take you 1 turn less to finish the cultivation of the tile (by any worker).

Maybe if we could see expected location of the 2nd city more clearly we could decide on our further strategy better? What if Whte Hawk makes several moves by the warrior and then posts a screen so that people can advise him on city location? ...

The game is in Consul's hands and he is free to do like he wants with it. This is basic of the SG ethics. So, let him do the thinking and calculating here and I'm sure everything will be just fine. :)

A tip - whenever moving your worker by 2 tiles to new building place, consider stopping him at the first and building useful improvement - and then cancelling work the same period. You would still start cultivating your initial destination tile only the next turn, but the game will remember the work hours, and later it would take you 1 turn less to finish the cultivation of the tile (by any worker).

This is a good tip but it will not work if the destination tile is a hill which will consume both worker moves.

If we plan on using it extensively, we would need to keep track of these things.

Also, I completely agree with Dynamic here. Early war usually is not a good idea if playing a research-based game which this one might very well be. As long as there is no danger for logbowmen appearing as AI defenders, we are in a good position to kill any AI we want with war chariots only.

... I think we should go directly to Bureaucracy and skip Alphabet to reduce the risk. Even if it allows us to get a few techs that we would have otherwise researched on our own (which may not be the case with only one neighbour) it won't be much and getting bureaucracy earlier adds up some bonus beakers too.

We still can get CS with a prophet if we ignore masonry. It would all depend on how well we can expand and what other AIs will be around. Overall, researching up to Priesthood will also take considerable time. Trading is a tricky business though and sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. However, if going for Domination, early Bronze and Iron Working are crticial techs as well even if Astronomy is required. I'd say it is 50-50 overall. Just to emphasize again, we are not playing for the score. We can get to Domination by leaving gaps between our cities and a few turns before the win, we just fill in these gaps with settlers, hire artists in these cities and expand their borders rapidly, so that the limit can be reached painlessly without slowing down research too much if we ever need to. But usually by the end of the game, the research is not important at all.

At pop 2 the 2nd city positioned SE from horses will produce 1+3+3 = 7 hammers = chariot almost every 5 turns. At pop 3 another 2 (from grass cow) or 4 (from hill mine - if we have mining) hammers arrive, decreasing builtime to "almost 4" - "almost 3" turns respectively.

My proposed improvement order (we have 7+15 = 22 turns before settler pops up, and then he takes 3 more turns to found a new city):pasture (6)+cottage north of it, as Dynamic proposed (8) = 14. Thus we've improved tiles for pop 4 at Thebes which should be sufficient for at least 36/4+39/5+42/6 = 24 turns after settler. If we don't build settlers or workers in the capital.
Then NE, cottage, cancel; goto cows, pasture - and it's finished the turn before settler pops up. Then N, road, cancel; N, road (3), pasture(6). We get horses tiled and linked 6 turns after the 2nd city is built - the quickest way possible - and 2 worked tiles for it also. After that we can mine a hil (if we have mining) or build a cottage on flood plains to the south. But to develop both cities we might require additional worker.

The game is in Consul's hands and he is free to do like he wants with it. This is basic of the SG ethics. So, let him do the thinking and calculating here and I'm sure everything will be just fine. :)
Course, I'm just tryin to be helpful, cuz the early game is the one I'm best in. Meaning the other stages I lay worse :lol:


This is a good tip but it will not work if the destination tile is a hill which will consume both worker moves. - naturally, that's just a guideline, not the rule.

Also, I completely agree with Dynamic here. Early war usually is not a good idea if playing a research-based game which this one might very well be. As long as there is no danger for logbowmen appearing as AI defenders, we are in a good position to kill any AI we want with war chariots only.
But the majority of our research is expected to come from the capital, so it might be reasonable to make 2nd city a unit producer with high shield count while the first still pumps libraries and stuff.

... But the majority of our research is expected to come from the capital, so it might be reasonable to make 2nd city a unit producer with high shield count ...

I like the idea. Build some units and go :hammer: all over the map. Spill some enemy blood so to speak.

I just calculated our approximate development using peace way. Very nice way without deadlocks. Of course I don't know yet about other civ so I skip it.

The Science way is Writing(12), Mysticism(7), Meditation(9), Priesthood(5), Code of Laws(~25), Mining(~3), Masonry(~3), Bronze Working(~4), Mathematics(~9)...

Thebes produces Warrior(7), Settler(15), Library(~23), Settler(13), Worker(7), Worker(6),Pyramids(~10) with 3 chops under Mathematics and Bureaucracy up to 112 hammers.

Second City on SE from Horse produces Warrior(7), 1 turn of Barracks then Oracle(29), Worker (6), Barracks(?), then Chariots.

Third city on the coast SE,SE,E from Capital (?)

Worker 1 Build Pasture then 3-d Cottage, Road between rivers then Pasture on north Cow, Pasture on Horse, Pasture on NE Cow, Road on Horse, Cottage near Second city then Cottage between Capital and 3-d city then go to Stone with road. Next 2 Workers from Capital helps on Stone then build Mine on Plain Hill then chop.
Oracle will be ready 4-5 turns later then CoL.

Note, near Forest chop is calculated like (Base +100%(Stone)+50%(Bureaucracy))*1.5(Math) = (30(Epic)+30+15)*1.5=112

Third city on the coast SE,SE,E from Capital (?)

Worker 1 Build Pasture then 3-d Cottage, Road between rivers then Pasture on north Cow, Pasture on Horse, Pasture on NE Cow, Road on Horse, Cottage near Second city then Cottage between Capital and 3-d city then go to Stone with road. Next 2 Workers from Capital helps on Stone then build Mine on Plain Hill then chop.
Oracle will be ready 4-5 turns later then CoL.

Scientific and Capital build side is excellent, but do we need road so early? There're no resources to share or religion to spread. Maybe faster cow and then horse and other improvements for the 2nd city.

Third city 2S3E - maybe put 2 cities: 3S2E (+1health, also reaches clam, can help capital work 2 cottages) and 4E (-1 health, but also reaches fish and extra flood plain, can help capital work 3 cottages)? This will save you flood plain from under the city and also give decent place for the 4th, which will otherwise will be hard to find (and without a city east of capital we won't work 3 flood plains.

And I'm pro fast war city, as you might've noticed :D Although I see your point on Oracle for fast bureau and pyramids - it's riskless and we can then take Russians out by macemen.

Indeed, EsatP dropped off. He will not be playing in this one. :sad:
Thanks for the update, akots. I'll stop looking out for him.

Scientific and Capital build side is excellent, but do we need road so early? There're no resources to share or religion to spread. Maybe faster cow and then horse and other improvements for the 2nd city.

This single tile road gives trade route between cities (+2 commerce at the beginning). Better make it early and then don't think about it. Delay on Cow is not so critical...

Didn't think of it. Thanks for pointing out!

I just calculated our approximate development using peace way. Very nice way without deadlocks. Of course I don't know yet about other civ so I skip it.

The Science way is Writing(12), Mysticism(7), Meditation(9), Priesthood(5), Code of Laws(~25), Mining(~3), Masonry(~3), Bronze Working(~4), Mathematics(~9)...

Thebes produces Warrior(7), Settler(15), Library(~23), Settler(13), Worker(7), Worker(6),Pyramids(~10) with 3 chops under Mathematics and Bureaucracy up to 112 hammers.

Second City on SE from Horse produces Warrior(7), 1 turn of Barracks then Oracle(29), Worker (6), Barracks(?), then Chariots.

Third city on the coast SE,SE,E from Capital (?)

Worker 1 Build Pasture then 3-d Cottage, Road between rivers then Pasture on north Cow, Pasture on Horse, Pasture on NE Cow, Road on Horse, Cottage near Second city then Cottage between Capital and 3-d city then go to Stone with road. Next 2 Workers from Capital helps on Stone then build Mine on Plain Hill then chop.
Oracle will be ready 4-5 turns later then CoL.

Wow! That is quite impressive to plan so far ahead. :goodjob: I am not that good :( But i like your plan. We set up 2 cities to share tiles with the capital and we capture those gem mines fairly early. :)

Hi all!

My report starts.

First of all I answer to Dinamic's quote
Don't forget set 3-d citizen on Flood Plain first then, 1 turn before Warrior 3 - on Cow.
When our city grow up to size 3, I try to place new citizen on different tiles, and I think, that 3 additional hummers (and Warrior-3 on one turn early) are more important then 1 additional beaker+3 food. On my silly mind we can begin settler earlier -> founded new city earlier ...

Next time, my Warrior-2 (South Warrior) was teleported, but when we discower Writing he go to russian borders again.

North Warrior (Warrior-1) went north side of our 'island' - I saw ices here. And we have not way to east in nothern side.

Now I make turn 6 - year 2800. We build Warrior-3. I start to produce Settler.
I think, that Warrior-3 stay home.

Game stopped, but not unloaded. If our command have some tips for me I'm ready to read it now... :)

My first turns was:
2950BC (1) - Worker start pasture, north Warrior (renamed to Warrior-1 or W1) move across coast
2920BC (2) - W1 killed 'wild animal' - wolf.
2860BC (4) - Russian borders expanded annd south Warrior (renamed to Warrior-2 or W2) was teleported to 4SW+1S from Thebes. Near Thebes are 2 russian Scouts.
2830BC (5) - Our borders expanded, size of Thebes is 3, one turn to Warrior-3
2800BC (6) - Warrior-3 ready in Thebes, all citizens are working at floodplains, Settler - 22 turns...

//Wait replies

PS
Here our north side (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/OurNorth.JPG)

Just play on as you like. We discussed the most important points already IMHO and stopping every time just to discuss about micromanaging 3 hammers is not a good idea. Later in the game we'll only discuss strategy and all the micromanagemnet should be done by the players themselves even if they play in the team with Dynamic himself ;) Otherwise it is just not fun :)

So, let him do the thinking and calculating here and I'm sure everything will be just fine.
I can't calculate :( My playing style not mathematical, but 'mystical' - I sence that 'that will be not OK' and stop my action. Thats why I must clearly understand my target.

Otherwise it is just not fun
Good. This is just a game!

stopping every time just to discuss about micromanaging 3 hammers is not a good idea
3 hummers was 2 turns ago :) - I discuss not about this - it was my own will

Thats all!

I discower all island - on it only we and russians.
At last turn (22 - sorry, but I want to see landform of our island) Thebes build Settler - not moved! Our Warrior-1 killed a Lion and level-up, but I not promote him!
Our best enemy H.C. was found Hinduism.
I built one more cottage, road between rivers and start to build new pasture on north cows.

Log of my game (part 2)
2770BC (7) - Pasture has done! Switch to it third citizen in Thebes - Settler - 15 turns. Start to build cottage N from pasture. One our cottage grow up to hemlet :)
2680BC (10) - Our W2 went to russians borders. I saw that russian Settler and one archer go north.
2650BC (11) - Writing -> Mysticism. Open borderd to russians. W1 go to second city place. W2 go to Moscow.
2620BC-2590BC (12-13) Far-far away Huayna Capac discover and convert to Hinduism.
2530BC-2500BC (15-16) - Move Worker and start a road between rivers on 1N2W from Thebes. I risk to move W1 on plain nearby wild Lion. Evil animal attaked him and die. W1 was level-up. Move him in forest - to heal his wounds.
2420BC (17) - Most advansed civs: 1st - Catherine, 2nd - H.C., we are 7th.
2440BC (18) - Mysticism -> Meditation.
2380BC-2320BC (20-22) - Move Worker and start a pasture. W2 went southern side of our island. IMHO - only russians are near us.

Here our southern side (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SouthernSide_CFR.JPG)

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CFR_SG001_BC2320_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Super! But still have to check SW of Russians, there is some land.

Looks good! :goodjob:

IMHO, we got to kill Peter and capture Moscow the sooner the better. He will not be a trade partner and the land will not be developed well since AI cannot handle that.

Now, the most critical part is to get to CS early or so it seems.

Witan is UP.

Its not Peter, its Catherine. Of course we need to kill them, but we also need to build at least 2 wonders settle more cities, build a library in the capital and lots of othr things. I agree with Dynamic that an ultra early rush will hamr us more then it would help us.

OK, for now we basicly need to decide where to found our next city. It seems that everubody wants to build it 1SE of the horses, but i had a look at the save and i disagree. As i said already we need to have some overlap between our first ring cities and the capital, because we want lots of developed cottages in the capital eventually and we can't work them all now because of happiness issues and because we also need to work hills at some point to build scientific improvements.

So here is a dotmap that tries to maximise that. Blue dot should be founded first. The disadvantage is that we'll have 3 green faces there because of floodplains.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/ajperc2.JPG

Black and purple are excellent, but maybe put Blue 1 more North - do we really need that much overlapping for cottages? The capital still gonna work itself at least 3, so we can relax overlapping for 1 city. We'll get better health, more workable tiles for 2 cities as a sum, and great production potential for the North city (2 cows, horse, 4 hills... 1 more floodplain :) ) Considering the black city, the blue adds just 1 overlapping with capital (in the shrt run 2 when ther's no black city - but no cottages in the overlapping also)
Orange city fights too much for the land with capital and Blue. If we put it NW from stone, it will work 3 overlapping cottages (1 is plains later), grabs the fish and in addition get much grassland and cow.

http://www.stipendia.ru/~lexa/cityloc2.JPG

As for war timing, I came to agree with the Great Ones :D that it will harm us more. The basic effect is delaying Oracle - we won't build him in the capital for not to dilute early GP genetics. And our economy is much more reliable on Oracle (=bureaucracy=supercapital) than on extra gem mine, and is less risky. Russians will have fast iron working to remove jungle (Ptitsa Consul said settler went North, and we can see its borders). This means we need macemen from the start (unless they don't have metals), but in the end get already cultivated land and a couple more cities. And a couple of techs, I think.

I do diagree both Obormot's suggested city placement up north (imho SE of horses is a good spot) and I think that early war is required for us on this map. Russian lands are too good to miss and we have to grab them early, indeed as early as possible. If we can do it with macemen, it is fine. If we still don't have macement, chariots/axemen will be good enough.

CS is important and getting there is important but it is not as important as getting Russian lands. The maintenance cost on Monarch is moderate and we can handle that with a few cottages. There is little threat to science here.

If we were playing for score, as I again would emphasize, that would not be a way to go. But we are not playing for score here, so it is OK to do that since we don't need too many farms and huge population growth here at any cost. We just need lots of productive cities and some good units to take over the world. Grenadiers might be Ok or might be we can do it with macemen. This is not a space race and research and military build up should go hand in hand. If research is too rapid and we don't have enough resources (land === resources in Civ4), we won't be able to keep our productivity in line with research.

Now, a few things about maintenance. The more cities we have, the more cottages we can build, the higher is our income. So, an important thing will be to balance expansion with city growth, productivity, and research.

The way you are suggesting to place the cities here will give us good research but will alter the balance between productivity and growth. And this does not look good for me.

I'm still not sure we need galleons here as well. That mountain ridge near the shore to the west looks like it had been placed by mapmaker/scenario creator to prevent artificially sea travel to the west which might as well be possible by galleys if we are able to place a city right there and to grow culture strong enough to enable that travel.

Hi all!
1) When our city grow up to size 3, I try to place new citizen on different tiles, and I think, that 3 additional hummers (and Warrior-3 on one turn early) are more important then 1 additional beaker+3 food. On my silly mind we can begin settler earlier -> founded new city earlier ...

2) Next time, my Warrior-2 (South Warrior) was teleported, but when we discower Writing he go to russian borders again.
side[/url]
1) You can play as you decide, I only gave advice. Finnaly you win 5 hammers but lost 8 foods and 2 beakers (don't forget about coefficients). In your case Settler was built at the same turn as in my, but now Thebes will grow 2 turns later. I noted twice, but not successfully, we can use Pasture 1 turn earlyer then Worker end his work and is ready for next job. So, we just lost production...

2) Of course, it isn't critical, but I also wrote about teleportation...

Witan usually hasn't internet connection on weekend.

If we found 3 cities, 2 of them will have very small production. And don't foget about maintenance. Sometimes better lost some tiles, but got more powerfull cities with less cost.

OK, may be 3 cities is good idea but I think we must found second city SE from Horse - this is great place for the future aspecially if we will need fast producing units for donination.
Now I think Russia will found her cities on our territiory so we will need a war after Oracle and Pyramids and will not have time for 3-d Settler.

Russia will go for Iron Working to clear jungle (2 gem mines is a prize enough), and it will take them less than us to finish the research. Chariots will do only if enemy has no metals - need to scout out.
In 1.61 comp defends more wisely - even at Noble level they have both archers and spearmen defending their cities. I fear if we don't start the chariot rush right after 2nd city is built, we must wait till macemen.

But if we will not build Oracle in time we will have serious problem with development... If Second city will produce Chariots Oracle must be built in Capital. But, in this case we delayed Settlers and Pyramids...

I know, and we must consider all sides. Capturing Moscow soon will give you without settler :) a city with excellent location (ideal for cottages) + gem mine+cow+rice, all ready for use. And another city to the north of it.

We'll have to delay Oracle, this means later bureacracy and representation, that is less production and commerce in capital, less happiness (not tha important so early?) and science from specialists (if we want to put them early). Haven't compared the costs yet.

I Just tested a little bit. Oracle after Library in Capital will be bad. It spends very long time and we have to remove some citixens from Cottages to prevent overpopulation. Oracle delay sign that we could lost it at all.

P.S. If we will try early war we need Mining or Masonry istead of Code of Laws first.

And, if we will found second city north, the better way is move Warrior towards that place.

I Just tested a little bit. Oracle after Library in Capital will be bad. It spends very long time and we have to remove some citixens from Cottages to prevent overpopulation. Oracle delay sign that we could lost it at all.
As I've said, I tend to agree on later warfare. But we should not expect to conquer Russia with chariots. The next unit dominating Russia is maceman.
And, if we will found second city north, the better way is move Warrior towards that place.
Agreed.

I noted twice, but not successfully, we can use Pasture 1 turn earlyer then Worker end his work and is ready for next job. So, we just lost production...
Yes, it was my mistake, yesterday I thought more time why your date of Settler completing and my is same. I understand it now! Unfortunately I teach by my own errors.

No, Ptits, you've ruined the game. We won't forgive you ever.:mad:
:D

Building the Oracle early is a must IMHO. After it is complete we can proceed with building chariots and/or macemen. We risk loosing the Oracle AND loosing the Piramids if we delay it. Not to mention that the gain from Piramids and Oracle will be much greater then the gain from those 3 gem mines.

I understand that my blue dot city is a little weaker then 1SE of the horses, but it also gets both cows and 3 hills into it's radius, so it is a good enough production city. The main disadvantage of proposed 1SE city is that it only shares one plains tile with the capital. And we do need to share cottages between capital and first ring cities, this was already discussed a lot before, there is no need to repeat it. This is even more important if we won't be able to found many more cities early (because of building 2 wonders and because of the coming war.)

Dynamic's proposal was to build Settler in the capital before the Pyramids, so there will be more than 2 cities and the cottage-sharing will take place, even if not with the 2nd city. Also, we ca't go to war immediately after the Pyramids as we need metal casting and machinery, so there will be spare time to put 1-2 cities in.

As for me, map of cities, that Lexard proposed is the best. But Black city i planned to build 1 cell to Norht (so we have in this city 2 additional production hills). According to this I'm going to found second city SE from Horses

Witan, thanx for approval. However, both hills are desert - not too good. Also, you lose 1 flood plain and fish.

I'm fully agree with second city (blue). And completely disagree with two Lexad's others. According to that - our capital is useless and have to be destroyed. :cry: In common I'm very dislike too close cities in civ4.

Their point is to help capital grow its hamlets to towns while it's working something else, like putting 2 scientists for fast academy. The capital is planned to become a commerce centre, so we need every point of growth we can get. The others gat what is rest - and that is not that bad, taking sea with its commerce into account. As a petty bonus, distance upkeep costs for Black and Purple is 0.

Other than that, of course, I would have not put them so close.

CB, we need lots of developed cottages in the capital. And the capital can only work 3 or 4 at a time in the early game. So if we settle cities without overlap we'll have only 4 good cottages in the capital and many small ones.

The point is that the other cities are working cottages inside the capital's border and develop them for the capital. Then once the happiness issues are sloved these cottages are handed back over to the capital. This way our capital will work a huge number of cottages developed into cities with bureaucracy bonus, with academy, etc. for huge science output.

And other cities will move over to other tiles, like working the coast, etc. We'll also need to hire merchants in other cities to help support 100% science rate untill we get Astronomy.

That is why i wanted to settle blue dot closer, but if everybody wants is 1SE of the horses, it is fine. But i still think that it'll hurt our science in the long run, even though it gives us a good production city sooner.

2330 bc (0)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Warrior-1 go NE (I'm afraid of Animals)
2. Settler go to SE from Horses)
3. Capital start to build library (26 turns, some less after grows)

2290bc (1)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Warrior-2 go West.
2. Op-pa! Barbarian Warrior near Horses - I can't build city on this turn. And worker build pasture near this place.
3. Warrior-1 get 1st Star (1.8 of healht) and go S
4. Warrior from Capital go N
5. Setttler move 1/2 of turn

2260bc (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Gm... Barbarian go N
2. Settler go to city-place and found Memphis. Worked FP and product Warrior
3. Warrior-1 go to Memhis.
4. Warrior from Capital go back
5. Warrior-2 go West.

2230bc (3)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Barbarian go N again, so i don't see him
2. Warrior-2 go West.

2200bc (4)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Warrior-2 go NW.
2. In Memphis MM: now worked on Pasture.
3. We have +1 in relationship with Russia

2170bc (5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Meditation was discovered, go to Priesthood (5 turns), but -1 Gold
2. Worker go to Horses, Warrior from Memphis too.
3. Warrior-2 go NW.

2140bc (6)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Worker start pasture on Horses, Warrior fortifed.
2. Warrior-2 go N.

2140bc (7)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Worker start pasture on Horses, Warrior fortifed.
2. Warrior-2 go N.

2110bc (8)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Warrior-2 go to appendix near Moscow and see Cow (there are 2 Archers in Moscow now)

2080bc (9)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Thebes grows to 4, worked on FP
2. Warrior-2 go W and SW. See new land!
3. Somewhere Judaism was founded

2080bc (10)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Thebes grows to 4, worked on FP
2. Warrior-2 go W and SW. See new land!

2050bc (11)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Warrior-4 was builded in Memphis and fortified.
2. Warrior-2 go home

2020bc (12)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The border of Memphis have expanded
2. Catherine adopts Org Religion
3. We have discovered Priesthood, next - Code of Laws (29 turns)
4. Memphis switch to Oracle (57 turns)
5. Attantion: In North we have 2 Barb warriors
6. Catherina convert to Judaism, so we have Religion :-) and she have now 2 cities (2nd site may be build some turns ago)

1990bc (13)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Pasture on Horses comleted, I mistake, so worker start to buid road on Horses

1960bc (14)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. St Petersburg now 2, and center og Judaism, russian worker buil pasture on Horses
2. In North I see only 1 Barb Warrior (2nd may be on Silver)

1930bc (15)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Menphis now 2, work on Horses

1900bc (16)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Worker now start Pasture on second tile with Cow. Sorry

1870bc (17)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Thebes grow, start work on Stone (lock the grow in Capital)
2. Taxes lasr turns on 90%, +1 gold. After Library was comleted we can switch to 100

1840bc (18)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. We have +2 in relationship with Russia

1810bc (19)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing new

1780bc (20)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catherina build Novgorod

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CFR_SG001_BC1780_01.Civ4SavedGame

OK, looks good and I got it, will play hopefully today. Any changes to the plans? I might take 20 turns as well since there is not that much to do overall. Or may be 10 turns depending on development of events.

I think we can continues according to our plan.

The only thing that bothers me now is that land tile that is visible across the strait SW of Moscow. Maybe it is just a small island, but maybe it is another continent reachable by galleys. I think we should slot fishing somewhere into the tech sequence and build a boat in the new city to explore there.

Obormot. I can understand the reason for black city (so I think it have to be placed 1 tile to the south from Lexad's point). But I don't see any reason for orange. In my opinion - it's just an increasing of maintainance. :(

You can play 20 turns if all will be clear. But, we still not decide 3-d city place...

I don't see where is Lexad's dotmap? I scoleed 3 pages back and still couldn't find it. If you are referring to my dotmap (orange is the city on the west coast, near the fish), then the reason is to work the cottages that will be built after chopping the forest and then handed over to Thebes. After that it can work coastal tiles. Maybe it is not a great city, but it'll definitely give us mor ethen enough gold to pay for it's mayntenance and it will develop the cottages for Thebes :) It can be moved a little bit to optimise the overlap though since the blue dot was moved.

I don't like moving the black dot 1S, because then it won't have fresh water and will have lots of green faces from FPs. And the desert hill is pretty useless IMHO. That is another pure commerce city.

These cities should all be founded some time later, so they won't hurt us much. The current settler should go to the pink dot IMHO. We just have to decide on the build order there. As i said we need work boats. One to work the clams and at least one more to explore. So i suggest researching fishing now (as Dynamic calculated we get Oracle a few turns after CoL anyway and that is propably delayed even further because we delayed settling Memophis because of barbs. So it won't delay the slingshot at all or maybe just for a turn or 2).

It does not look like we will need the 3rd city soon, not on my watch anyhow.

Do we accept Judaism as state religion if it comes to us? I think we should.

I think the plan was to build another settler after the library and if you play 20 you'll have it built during your turnset.

I don't see any problem with accepting judaism if it spreads.

And the desert hill is pretty useless IMHO.

You think pure desert is more usable than desert hill? ;)

No, i think having +2 food from health is more usefull the the desert hill. :)
And having a river does mean +2 food there because that city will be so much unhealthy that will be above the limit for most of the game.

I think the plan was to build another settler after the library and if you play 20 you'll have it built during your turnset. ...

I think we need another worker form the capital. But may be settler. The city on desert will have clams and fish, and that is a lot of food and health. The city on desert hill will get only fish but it gets extra flood plains and may be border extension will enable us to travel beyond these mountains with a galley. It is a close call but I don't think it is really important. Both cities are OK imho.

A settler and couple of workers are needed so that we can actually begin building cottages that will be worked by the Orange city. I am not sure which build order is better though.

After Library we have time for Settler and 2 workers before Pyramids. Timing was made for Masonry and Mining in time for Workers, and CoL as fast as possible for Religion. But, if we will have other religion in Capital... we could delay CoL. But, in this case Workers will not use Stone in time. Ptitsa and Witan already delayed scheduler, so may be we will need to correct calculations...

I don't think we need orange city. I even not tested 2 cities on East...

I think overall, a city on desert, 1 south of black spot, might be an OK city. It can work some cottages for capital, has access to fish and clams and can make some shields working deser hills.

But it might be a good idea to build a city down to the south just to stop Russian expansion. Also, we don't know where copper or iron are.

This is current situation and the suggested black dot of city 3.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/city3-1780BC.JPG

It seems, good idea might be to go for a worker first, who can build some roads which we eventually will need anyhow if there is some wondow left from building cottages.

1S of black dot is a terrible idea as i alredy said. It will be unhealthy at size 1! Even with the cow connected.

I planned to found 3-d city SE,SE,E from Capital and don't settle anymore before war end, but, in this case we lost several flood tiles. In other hand we could have enaugh powerfull city with small maintence.

CoL gives us Confucianism in foundation city and missionary to spread it to the second - so it would hardly spread itself. We can have Judaism later with Russian cities :)
Obormot, my map is right after yours (5th page)
Third city: Dynamic proposed building 3rd settler after Library, so we should decide now. I'd put it at Purple site (SE from cows) as it will have health higher than Black by 2, will be able to work cottages and, if need arises, cow. 1S from Black has disease from start as it is not connected to rivers.
3E2S has lower health than Purple (3S2E), costs 1 flood plain and makes us ponder where to put 4th city. However, no extensive calculations on my part.

Btw, can religion spread without trade routes? Cause we have none with Russians.

By the way, Witan, I can't see mistake in your road on horses - you would still till all tiles before pop 3. And we're not in a great hurry to grow (only then we would like to till it faster to work it at pop 2 as soon as we can) as health will become a pressing matter in Memphis at pop 4 (=in 12 turns). Thus, maybe we should build a mine near Memphis next, so that we could use it at pop 4.

But we should not build fast cities SW just to prevent Russian expansion. We don't mind it at all :)

When we start war with Russians, we'd better scout to their south to see whether there is some space SE from Moscow uncovered by Russian territory. We might put our armies there and have them reach Mosow in couple of turns, while attacking Piter with new army from the North.

Also, if the small peninsula SW from Moscow will be covered by Russian territory (if there's a city, that is), place a Scout there before declaring war - he will be teleported to the land we see!

akots, Yes, yes! Build it there! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thanx:

And I agree with Dynamic - we must say "No!" to orange city. :old:

I'd rather reconsider - it would spoil the place of 2 cities and won't be able to support capital because of low health = low growth = bad city. We need 2 cities to work all good tiles to the SE (fish, clam and all flood plains), and I can reasonably see no other allocation than proposed by Obormot and me. Let's take time to discuss, cause this wll determine our future opportunities.

I have no problems with Orange insofar. After it leaves all Fat Cross capital tiles to Thebes, it still has 4 grasslands + 1 grassland with cow + 1 ocean with fish + 8 coasts + 1 ocean and 1 hill and with lighthouse, even if you mine the hill, you still have 4 food extra after cottaging all the tiles = 2 specialists (pop max = 18). Fine enough in the long run (with commerce from 4 cottages and sea), and in the short, thanx to cow and fish, you can grow fast and work the cottage grasslands for Thebes, or swith to production by mining the hill and build an army. But we do not need it as the 3rd city, as we need the forest chops for Thebes.

[1] Stonehenge was built somewhere. Might be we are not the only ones who have stone. Barbarians from north move south. Moved warrior from pasture on horses to forest to meet them as well as the other warrior from Memphis. Worker finished pasture on cows and will go to road the horses. I want to build one chariot at least in the capital to deal with barbarians before going for a worker there.

[2] Road on horses built, barbarians are thinking but not going after Memphis yet.

[4] Library ready, Immediately set 2 scientists in Thebes, CoL ready in 13 turns. Thebes is working 3 cottages now. We need another happy face there and getting religion seems to be the best choice. Set to build chariot but it will be ready only in 17 turns.

IBT: Both barbarian warriors died to our brave soldiers and the north is safe for now. I leave one warrior to watch over there and another returns to Memphis.

[5] Memphis grows to size 3 and Oracle will be ready in 17 turns there. Hopefully, we can get it.

[6] There is an exposed Russian worker building a pasture on cow. We can grab him but it might be a bit dangerous, Russia seems to be pretty powerful.

[10] There is not much going on, I think I’ll take a few more turns, at least till we discover CoL.

[14] Russia moves a yet another settler up north in our direction escorted with 2 archers.

[16] Memphis grows and get an unhealthy icon as expected. We need to hook up rice. But worker is building cottage on flood plains.

IBT. We get CoL and Confucianism as expected. I do not revolt, it is up to the next player.

[17] Research set to mining ready in 4, Oracle will be ready in Memphis in 5 turns. We have 66 out of 150 GPPs in Thebes which is still building the chariot. Thebes grows in 4 and can be size 6 with religion.

I think the only doubt I have is switching Thebes to two scientists. But we need the Academy there and the sooner the better. There might be one problem however. It if that Russia might come and kill us now at any time. :lol: I think we will survive though. ;)

There is nothing new going on, so I have not many pictures. We can revolt to Castle system if we wish but there is little benefit from it now. Memphis has Confucian missionary but I have not moved him. It seems he can go to Thebes to spread religion there. Here is Russian settler/archer trio and it does not look good. If it were a multiplayer game, we would have been long dead...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/RT-1330BC.JPG

I'd rather reconsider - it would spoil the place of 2 cities and won't be able to support capital because of low health = low growth = bad city. ...

The city will be excellent. To fight against bad health, we just need more food. And the city will have a lot of food from fish and clams. It will even be able to grow working cottage for the capital, just slightly more slowly.

I'm also pretty much convinced that we have to kill Russia and we have to do it very soon. Otherwise, we are risking to get cornered really badly.

Some minor long-run calculations (as most people are concerned that after working the cottages for Thebes - and Memphis! for Black city - they wil become useless):
I presume that Thebes and Memphis will take all he land they can, and as they have more cottageable land, this would be efficient. Then
- Black city has for its own use 3 flood plains (assume cottages everywhere possible hereafter), ocean with fish, 5 coasts and hill = even if we mine the hill, 10 pop + 6 spare food = 3 specialists more = 13 pop. We can manage pop as we want with growth of 2 from town + 3 from flood plains + 3 from fish = 8/turn!
- Purple city has 1 flood plain, 2 grasses, 1 hill, coast with clam, 8 coasts = 13 pop + 3 extra food
- they also share 2 flood plains which we can give to any city. To reach steady state (0 growth at limit in both) we can build cottage on each, and depending on sharing, in one city mine will be replaced by windmill.

Reposting the pic to make it more visuable:
http://www.stipendia.ru/~lexa/cityloc2.JPG

Blin, too late :(

By the way, akots, you already have confucianism in Thebes as I can see. Maybe keep it for 3rd city.

Have you finished the turn or we're discussing?

I'm finished, Obormot is UP

Indeed, CoL is already in Thebes. So, we save missionary for the 3rd city then.

The city will be excellent. To fight against bad health, we just need more food. And the city will have a lot of food from fish and clams. It will even be able to grow working cottage for the capital, just slightly more slowly.
I just have to disagree. The city will be bad:
1. early game - as it's low health and thus low growth would not allow it to work much capital cottages fast enough
2. late game as it will work 5 flood plains out of 6 spare, 1 out of 2 grass and 1 out of 2 plain hills, 9 instead of 15 water tiles = less commerce (8+7 from towns+6*2 from coasts+2 from ocean instead of coast = 29 less base commerce), and will be hampered by low health

Well, all in all, good game, akots!

Russians are expanding very fast. I fear if we try to attack them with chariots only (and even axemen) and they have metal, it'll be a long war. Moscow has already 13 shields of base production = chariot every 3 turns, axeman or spearman - every 4 - and can use forest tiles to increase it . We must crush them technologically - that is, get metal casting and machinery after CS and fishing and crush them by a later-era macemen. And the joy of CS-slingshot - we can dpo it soon!

1S of black dot is a terrible idea as i alredy said. It will be unhealthy at size 1! Even with the cow connected.

With cow and rice it will be OK. We then can build 2 workboats and work fish and clams and this will be enough up to size 6.

I just have to disagree. The city will be bad.

I think victory here could be your. Obormot is the next and seems to be on your site. So, he just can build this city on your place. :D

One more thing - if orange and purple city will be built, I propose the fifth city on the west of rice with the slogan: "Kill that bureaucratic capital!!!" :lol:

The point is not about sides, CB, it's about early growth rates and kate game efficiency. And Bureaucratic capital will have it Fat Cross of 20 tiles after other cities help it cultivate the cottages, with other cities having great tiles also: east cities - one sea food resource each for growth, one hill for production, and flood plaains for commerce; Orange in the West will have even 2 food resources! I hope I've also shown that the cities will be great and we can fats get them to whatever size we like after happiness and health constraints slacken by using food resources and flood plains.

And both I and Obormot came to the eastern cities conclusion simultaneously, so don't call it my site :)

If anyone has objections backed up with numbers, please present them. The only 1 I can see is that we have to build 1 more settler - but we already are low on health and happiness, even after representation, rice, and fish our main 2 cities will have to stop the growth by producing settlers and workers.

And if we don't have metal and Russia has (and far from us), we're screwed :)

By the way, from the Power graph at team stats page seems that all 4 of the teams that have already reached the same date have gone for fast chariots. However, our score is higher :)

Obormot, you might want to reconsider worker task, production in Thebes, and Citizen allocation there. We won't be beaten to Academy, but we can be to Pyramids, and we seem to divert from the graph. Another worker, maybe. I believe you know best (and much better than me) what to do here :)

And both I and Obormot came to the eastern cities conclusion simultaneously, so don't call it my site :)


Yes, of course. I was sure it's a plot! :lol:

Indeed I have just egoistic purposes. It will be uncomfortable for me to play with 5 cities on about 50 tiles. Too much MM is tiring. :lol:

Too early scientists, I think. I hoped to save its for Representation after Pyramids with grater effect...

Too early scientists, I think. I hoped to save its for Representation after Pyramids with grater effect...

I thought about that also. We can let them go though for some time after the Oracle is finished or even right now since all effort should have been towards the Pyramids. But for that we need Masonry, Bronze working, and another worker.

Now, Thebes can grow slightly more to size 6 and we basically get everything back. It was pretty dangerous otherwise since we were risking of not getting CoL with Confucianism. I decided to play it safe here on the scientific front.

Sharing cottages is crucial, it is the most important part of the game! I think it is a great mistake to slow down cottage growth so much (first by building the blue city where it was built and now by hiring scientists instead of building a settler). With 3 cottages it will take us forever to get to Astronomy. And as Dynamic said Academy after Piramids is more optimal, not the other way around.

I don't know whether we need to continue with the academy since we have 66/150 GPP already, or proceed with building a worker and a settler faster.

I would spread the religion into Thebes, the new city will have enough happy faces for quite a while and Thebes needs it now. This will allow us to work the cow tile to build the worker and settler soon or an extra cottage if we decide to fire scientists.

I agree with Lexad's city placement. The Pink dot should be settled urgently as i said. The other 2 cities can wait for now and we can build them after the Piramids or after the Piramids and 2 WCs.

... If anyone has objections backed up with numbers, please present them. ...

You were "presented with objections" which you choose to disregard. ;)

It seems you are too much of a builder and too little of the warrior. That is OK imho, we need both approaches here.

It is certainly Obormot's call but I think it is better for the team if we resolve the conflict the easy way by deciding through discussion. ;)

... it will take us forever to get to Astronomy. ...

I'm not so sure that we need Astronomy.

...I would spread the religion into Thebes ...

We already have religion there.

If we revolt now though, we might worsen relationships with Russia and this might lead to them attacking us and we don't want that yet.

Proposed strat to rush for Pyramids: remove 1 scientist to cows and start worker (10 turns), cancel task for the worker we have (before he moves this turn, that is - immediately), move him to Thebes, next turn - to woods west, 3 turns for road, 1 turn to stone hill, 3 turns road - and we already have masonry (9 turns passed since now, mining + masonry = 7 turns, 7 (2 + 5 to go) for bronze working).
Now it is 1 turn to go for worker and 9 worker days for quarry. Start quarry with 1st, next turn 2nd pops, comes and helps build quarry the same turn. They have 3 more turns to go. Then (perhaps not immediately) switch to Pyramids, remove all growth via setting to scientists or hill to prevent red faces and revolt to Bureaucracy.
Bronze working is discovered the same turn (or 1 before if research rounds up) the quarry is built the very next turn start chopping and producing Pyramids. Chopping wood at Epic takes 5 turns, so with 2 workers it will take a while. Base city production (city+quarry+cow) is 10 + 100% from stone + 50% from Bureau = 25. First chop starts the next turn the quarry is built by moving along the road. It will take 12 turns after quarry to chop 4 tiles of wood giving 112*4 + 25*12 = 736 out of 675 => excess
If we try to chop 3 tiles, this will take 10 turns = 3*112 + 25*10 = 586 out of 675 - need extra 89. If we hit bureau right after the worker is produced, and then build pyramids before quarry (adjusting for 1 move for anarchy) = 2turn*(2town+3cow+3hill)*1,5bureau + 1turn*(2town+3cow+5quarry)*2,5bureau&stone = 24 + 25 = 49 hammers. If we also during chopping work plains wood tile for extra 2 hammers per turn * 2,5 * 10 turns = 50 hammers. That's it!

That is the recipe of Pyramids in 9 for road + 5 for quarry + 10 for chopping = 24 turns. Can anyone think of faster?

Edit: the previous calculation was incorrect. It is correct now (I believe)

I think we should revolt immidiately if it helps us. Maybe it is a little bit risky, but we have to take the risk imho. We have +2 with them already and we can bribe them with techs as soon as we get Alphabet.

I am not sure if we need Astronomy too, but as long as we are not certain that this game can be won before Astronomy we cannot afford to slow down our research.

It is quite late now and i have just started playing GOTM, so i don't want to break now to stick with the 1 hour per session rule, so i'll play tomorrow. I would really like to build a settler for the Pink dot before the Piramids. Originally we planned 2 workers 1 settler, but it looks like now we have trouble fitting just 1 worker into the build sequence due to many screwups. I think we can delay the Piramids a little bit without great risk and still build that one settler. That settler is very important and i really hate to delay it so much. First of all it is the cottages as i said and also it is exploration. We need to get that boat out ASAP so we know whether we need Astronomy or not.

We are not in a hurry now because we seem to be ahead of most teams, so I can look into the save tomorrow morning and propose my build and worker action sequence.

If we remove one and then another scientist, we will not get Bronze working that rapidly.

Another option might be to chop the third worker. We need him anyhow. That means we go for Bronze working first and only then for masonry while keeping both scientists. We then can get Pyramids in about 20 turns or may be 19, not sure.

In either case, even if we don't get the Pyraminds, we can receive substantial cash and this cash will be helpful in the forthcoming war with Russia.

If we remove one and then another scientist, we will not get Bronze working that rapidly.
We will. I've checked.

Another option might be to chop the third worker. We need him anyhow. That means we go for Bronze working first and only then for masonry while keeping both scientists. We then can get Pyramids in about 20 turns or may be 19, not sure Not so fast, I fear.

... Maybe it is a little bit risky, but we have to take the risk imho. ...
I am not sure if we need Astronomy too, but as long as we are not certain that this game can be won before Astronomy we cannot afford to slow down our research.

That is not a little bit risk, I would say it is extremely risky. Also, keep in mind, that if they attack, we lose the game altogether. AI on Monarch can kill us, of that I'm very certain. We need a few units for backup, so good idea would be to start on chariots in Memphis right after Oracle and build as many as possible. We also need to hook up rice.

We cannot afford to slow down science but also we cannot afford to work only cottages. There must be a good compromise found in this subject otherwise we cannot achieve the balance between science and productivity which we need to win here.

I'm against a clear all-out-science or all-out-hammers approaches for this game and in general.

With emphasizing science only you can win by Diplomacy but not by Domination. If the warmongering is postponed for too long, we would have to face lots of powerful AIs. Might be, our units will be superior, but we would not have enough of them. The earlier we start, the better we are off regarding the finish date.

Revolting to confucianism will add 1 happy face and cost 1 turn. It won't speed up Pyramids, but we can work cottages then AND work a plains wood during the chopping. However, still you need plains wood for 8 turns, we might make this sacrifice in order not to angry Russia beforetime - and know all it s troop dislocation, resources - and get teleport to other continent opportunity!

... adjusting for 1 move for anarchy ...

We don't have anarchy, we are spiritual.

... and get teleport to other continent opportunity!

That is unlikely, the units are teleported towards your territory unlike it were in Civ3.

... Not so fast, I fear.

I think even faster if we can get Thebes to size 6. I'm not sure what will happen to health though after the forest chops but it seems that the city will not starve either way.

We don't have anarchy, we are spiritual.
Sweeet... Then we might need even 1 less turn: first chop together along the road, then separately = 9 turns of chopping. If we revolt to Bureau immediately after we get it (in 5 turns), the sciences will come even faster.

By the way, if we start worker now, will the accumulated production of chariot decay?

Ok, fellas, good night, lot of work tomorrow.

I am not telling i will only work cottages and this is exactly why i won't to settle that city soon. We can then work some production tiles with our capital while cottages are worked by the other city and vice versa :)

Chopping one worker or settler sounds good to me.

One last proposal - we can build settler with 2 city after Oracle in 150/14 = 11 turns, that is even before quarry is finished (before the Pyramids ;), Obormot). And it can immediately after founding work cottages.

Don't forget that for good chopping we need Mathematics... By original plan we could have it in time but now... I need time for testing but not now.

Don't forget that for good chopping we need Mathematics... By original plan we could have it in time but now... I need time for testing but not now.

Well, we do need mathematics. The problem is whether we can get it in time to build the Pyramids or not. It is hard to tell indeed because we have no idea about how powerful the AI are here and even if they have stone or not.

All we need now for the following turns is Masonry and Bronze working. Mining will be discovered in 3 turns and we can start to Mathematics. We can prechop forests and actually collect the hammers after the discovery of Mathematics. If we keep both scientists running, we can get Mathematics while working on quarry on the stone tile and road there. We can build worker in Memphis as well. But before this, Thebes has to be allowed to grow to size 6 if we revolt.

So, no big hurry with chopping imho for now. I'm not absolutely sure we even need the Pyramids because health is more limiting to us than happiness and also, if we put all these hammers into units, we can go to war sooner. Research is important though and +3 extra beakers from specialists is a nice thing to have in any case. However, even if we don't get the Pyramids, it is not that bad especially if we don't need Astronomy.

Sorry, my bad, didn't notice 112 from chopping was with maths. Then it will take 1 chop and 3 turns more to build Pyramids.

I'd like to discuss military aspect of our game.

Now we have not unit exept Warriors. Relationship with Russian only +2. After Catherina was built 4th city near our Capital, IMHO she will want to attackt us. Now position of Bronze/Iron is unknown, but probability, that Catherina have these resources and we dont't is about 2/3 (her territory is bigest). So, what can we do to protect and that to atack?

I think, we need to build some (2-3) Chariots to capture Russian Bronze/Iron city as soon as we see Bronze/Iron on map.

I didn't play yestoday because i had some problems with my internet connection and i wanted to post my thoughts about the game before playing.

I assume we wan't to chop forest only with Mathematics. I calculated that we'll get Mining, Masonry, Fishing, Bronze Working and Math in about 23 turns or so if we continue using 2 scientists and then build an academy. That is assuming 90% research rate and not taking prerequisite multipliers into account, so it should actually be a couple of turns earlier.

I think we need to stick to using the scientists, because that means math sooner, and that means Piramids sooner (unless we waste shields by chopping withpout Math). I think i was wrong when i said it was a mistake to hire them.

But to connect the stone soon enough and to chop the forest we need more workers, and to build them soon we need to work the cow tile. Since i would hate to move a citizen over from one of the cottages and i would hate to remove a scientist, i think we should convert to confucianism and grow even though it is risky.

We can grow in one turn now if we remove one of the 2 scientists for a turn. Then we can work 3 cottages, cow and 2 scientists. We can build the WC for 1 turn, grow and build a worker and a settler in Thebes, then Piramidse. In Memphis we build a worker, then military units. In case of emergency we'll be able to finish the WC in one turn and if Catherine doesn't attack us we better build a barracks before the WC :p We can do the same trick in Memphis: build chariot untill there is one turn left so that we can finish it quickly in case of emergency, then build barracks, then finish the chariot.

Since we'll have to build a worker and a settler in Thebes (settler comes after the worker because we cannot connect the stone instantly) we also need to cottage 2 more tiles so that we can work cottages while building worker and settler. After that we can work a mined hill and a quarry and cottages are taken over by the third city.

Here are the details:

The build order in Thebes:
- War Chariot (1,1)
- worker (10,11)
- settler (10, 21)
- Piramids (9, 30) - 3 forest chops

Memphis:
- Oracle (5,5)
- Worker (7,12)
- Chariots
...

Worker 1
- cottage (2,2)
- cottage (8,10)
- move (2,12)

Worker 2
- Born on turn 11
- move (1,12)

Workers 1 and 2
- Road (1.5)
- move (1)
- quarry (4.5)
- road (1.5), ready on turn 21, the same turn we build the settler in Thebes and switch to Piramids

Worker 3
- Born on turn 12
- move (2,14)
- mine (6,20)

After this all 3 workers chop forest towards Piramids.

We get Piramids 30 turns from now. This may be a bit risky, but this only about 6-7 turns later then the build sequence which targets building Piramids early and completely neglects cottages and units.

We'll get BW really soon and we can adjust this strategy a little bit in that case to get a couple more WCs early on if Russia has bronze, but we don't have it. And Iron Working will take a while for them to research.

I think 2-3 Chariots isn't enough. We haven't barracks and if Russia has Copper, she will have spearmens very soon but we must have 2-3 Cariots per Spear and some for Archers. And that's only for 1 city. So, I don't know yet what type of unit we will use in war, but we need Oracle, Pyramids, first and Settler, Workers and Barracks in 2 cities also. Of course, we have potential religion conflict but we need high producton in 2 cities so we must risk.

Sorry, I just post and didn't see Obormot's post...

I didn't check Obormot's calculations but I agree with his tactics.

I didn't check Obormot's calculations but I agree with his tactics.
I did to learn how to beat my enemies in other games :D
It's even better than Obormot says as if he switches scientists to cottages as fast as the latter are ready, he gets worker in 1 (9 hammers and breads) + 3 (12=9+3 bread from cottage) +4 (5 hammers + 2 from bureau + 7 breads)= 8 turns and will have additional 11 food for settler, which will be built in 1 (14) + 8 (17 from new cottage) = 9 turns. Worker 2 turns faster means quarry 1 turn sooner.
However, there are some points I want to address:
- the second city is poor on health and happiness - maybe build there a mine to...
- ... speed up barracks and chariots.
- in the gamesI faced many time situations when after producing worker or settler prvious accumulated shields for some unit production decayed comletely. Does any one of the more experienced players know the conditions of the decay? Would it affect our WC? I it would, then we have extra 3 turns (2 if we don't want to lose pace on quarry) between settler and Pyramids when we can finish WC before starting worker.

All the rest is excellent. Research with bureau will give us maths soon enough to finish Pyrs.

Sounds like a good plan. However, I'm not sure in a few things here:

1) Building settler after worker in Thebes might be not the best choice here. We might need to finish Pyramids first. IMHO, it might be a good idea to chop the third worker there even if we don't have mathematics yet. Just one forest. By all means, if you decide to revolt to Confucianism, let Thebes and Memphis grow. Memphis will be unhealthy but not starving.

2) This means we don't have to build worker in Memphis. We can start on chariots there right away.

3) I don't see much need in building barracks. Sometimes, in Civ4 (unlike Civ3), barrack are not much needed. Promotion for mounted units is only combat 1 since flanking is somewhat useless.

4) Consider hooking up rice as early as possible as well. This will greatly speed up production of settler in Thebes and give more health to a new city.

3) I don't see much need in building barracks. Sometimes, in Civ4 (unlike Civ3), barrack are not much needed. Promotion for mounted units is only combat 1 since flanking is somewhat useless.

4) Consider hooking up rice as early as possible as well. This will greatly speed up production of settler in Thebes and give more health to a new city.
3. Yes: Flanking 2 makes it immune to first strikes - but WC already is!
4. Good point. But later, after Pyrs, because unirrigated farm on rice gives 4 food (just 1 more than cottage) and we already will have 14-17 production. And we won't be able to spread irigation so far and fast.

Checked decay in trial save game from GOTM5 - no decay for chariot after worker. Hmm.

edit: and after settler too. Was it a bug that was fixed by patch?

flanking is somewhat useless.
Really? In Granprix 26 by civfanitics.ru my early tactic was (past some restarts) quick access to chariots, promote they to Flanking 1-2 first of all and rush China. Somtimes (mostly without reloads) my chariots returns from battle with victory chance ~0,3%. And they gets experience after promotion.

For mounted units IMHO flanking-promotion is more important then "combat-1" and "combat-1" dependings...

We can do the same trick in Memphis: build chariot untill there is one turn left so that we can finish it quickly in case of emergency, then build barracks, then finish the chariot.
Good idea! Usefull trick :)

... my early tactic was ... quick access to chariots, promote they to Flanking 1-2 first of all and rush China. ...

In that game you did not play CS/Academy gambit. Here in this game, we obviously have technological superioriy and no units with which to cover up retreating chariots. Usually, advantage given by flanking can be seen only when you have many units. That GP game you are talking about, had reloads permitted. So, might be you were able to retreat all your chariots, I don't know. (Bet it could have been done even without flanking promotion, just need more reloads ;) ). With reloads not permitted, as we play this game, we need large numbers of chariots (may be about 15) to actually see the advantage. We are not going to build 15 chariots in the near future just to see 3 more of them retreating instead of dying. And the other feature of flanking II which is immunity to first strike, is already there with the chariot.

Lots of bad news.

First of all somebody built Piramids in 910BC (turn 17 of my turnset) and that is where I stopped playing because we need to change our plans now. I guess we have an Industrious AI with strong capital and stone in this game, because Stonehenge was also b