Although Rihiter says we cannot loose these guys (Sword and axe), if they lose a battle with over 90% chance then such is life.
Yep, such is life. If you have bad luck, you cannot help it. But you can help the "luck" to be good as much as it's possible. So try to not get them killed ;].

And realy, we don't need more troops ( only catapults... maybe ;] ).

Just checking back in here. I agree that we should try to keep Cyrus and Gandhi happy with us. Any chance we could get one of them to declare on Cathy too for the "mutual military struggle" bonus?

Pre-check :
Trade with Gandhi : sugar for dye. We'll have enough sugar soon (I hope)

Next turn, check for trades with Cathy. There is no tech available. I Declare war
Chariots pillage the horses on road to Moscow. Set reserach to 0% (this should have been done on turn 0)

I whip a library in Memphis for 3 pops. Now we have +3 we cannot forget your cruel oppression

The troops advance at Moscow. Courthouses are started in Oh Drat and Yakutsk. Thebes is churning archers

After that Memphis starts courthouse too and Thebes is already on the third archer. Archer 2 goes to Memphis.
I spot a galley of Cathy with 2 chariots on. It is going north. Rostov finishes a cat and starts a spear. The army arrive at Moscow and the first bomabrdment drops defenses from 60% to 24%

The second round, defenses at 0% but I don't attack. I want to send at least two cats before attacking. Cathy sent one of the 3 archers at moscow south :smoke:. Courthouse is whipped in Oh Drat at 2 pops cost

Now it is time to attack at Moscow (archer has been replaced):

- cat 1 promoted to CR1. Huge Damage + withdraws
- cat 2 pormoted to CR1. No Damage + withdraws
- cat 3 pormoted to CR1. Kills axe
- sword kills archer
- axe kills archer
- chariot kills archer
Moscow is ours, 0 losses. It seems like Kikinit magic hand effect is ongoing

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM1/turnSet2/01-MoscowFalls.jpg


On internal affairs, Oh Drat starts churning missionaries. Four finishes his job and go to St-Peterburgh to make us rich. One has almost finished clearing the jungle there to hook the gems. The city breaths now that Moscow is down. Anyone knows why the hell this plot has three golds ? no resources there. A plain coastal tile. Maybe some gems dropped from the coast :)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM1/turnSet2/02-St-Petersburgh.jpg


Cathy drops the chariots on the horses south of St Pertersburgh.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM1/turnSet2/03-CathyChariots.jpg


The spear is ready but won't get there in time. I attack with cats. cat 1 promoted to combat 1 and attacks combat 1 chariot, kill him. Cat 2 attacks unpromoted and wins. Free promotions from Cathy, thanks a lot

Chariot is renamed to Dr Judah in Moscow. Gets a medic and start healing troops
The unharmed chariot and a cat go to Yuroslav'l to start destroying defenses

In the north east, a barb galley appears and plays hide and seek. This is not good for our fishboats. I switch to galley in Memphis. Two finishes a cottage and starts a farm north of Thebes. CS is due in 6, we may as well start to spread irrigation to that rice. Thebes finishes monastery and starts a courthouse

The barb galley is hesitating. I switch back to courthouse, the galley can be whipped for 2 pops in case of emergency now that some hammers have been spent on it

The first missionary fails in Yakutsk. I already had too much luck with RNG, so pbffft.

Now troops are healed and are regrouping at Yuroslav'l. Meanwhile, an axe and spear arrive at novgorod to start bombarding. Novgorod is heavily defended

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM1/turnSet2/04-Novgorod.jpg


Moscow gets out of revolt, it already has a courthouse. I start a temple

And now the second battle at Yuroslav'l
cat 1 attacks archer -> little damage but withdraws
cat 2 attacks archer-> wins
cat 2 attacks archer-> wins
cat 3 attacks axe -> wins
Sword attacks spear with 100% -> wins and gets 17 xp. We have west point unit

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM1/turnSet2/05-Yuroslavl.jpg


Again 0 losses . Can we get disqualified for too much luck :lol:

At this point, I got carried away with these easy victories, and made :smoke: 'in moves. In place of bombarding Novgorod, I see the copper mine and felt like pillaging it to stop Cathy from making spears and axes. It is guarded by an archer. Axe attacks and win, he is wounded. Cat follows axe. Next turn Cathy attacks with a spear and kills the axe :blush: (Okay after all Rihiter don't know where I live ... )
An archer attacks the cat but dies. At least I am able to pillage the copper.
Next turn, next :smoke:'in move. I send Dr Judah to defend the cat instead of the other chariot. I should have let him die for all the cats we have

Situation now is we have lot of experienced cats that need to heal, a sword (that cannot die :)) and probably only one chariot. I am suspecting Dr.Judah to die IBT. If Cathy don't attack, get him back to healing duty

Civil service is due next turn and with it, economy should blossom
The courthouse at Memphis is already whippable but no hurry yet. The last city to have its courthouse will be Yakutsk (a worker is chopping there). Courthouses are due in 3 and 4 turns in Rostov and Thebes. St-Petersburgh is a lost cause.

Not a single tech to trade during all the turnset. I did check from time to time Frustrating ...

keep the massacre (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG001_AD0335_01.Civ4SavedGame) going

@ZerrorR, mike p : Gandhi will not declare (don't like us enough). Cyrus don't even know Cathy

(Okay after all Rihiter don't know where I live ... )
Are You sure about this? ;]

a sword (that cannot die )
Lets change his name to: Connor MacLeod ;]

Situation now is we have lot of experienced cats
Experienced cat might sometimes be more useful then a swordsman ;]

BTW... Great work :D

Say byebye Dr. Judah, we'll miss you.

Nice turns blid. Not only you made some :smoke: moves. Why would the AI build a courthouse in the capital already? The academy is also a bit of a bonus to our future research efforts.

We've only got 2 more of her towns to take and then we can start to build towards our next goal. Good luck Mike!

The Roster:
-- Kikinit
-- Rihiter
-- sooooo
-- blid -- Just Played
-- mike p -- Up (for 15)
-- ZerrorR -- On Deck
-- Ralph_Jackson (upcoming skip 26-30/June)

EDIT: I've been looking at the graphs and charts and they are quite interesting. The list of saves shows that we have all played all sorts of numbers of turns and mis-counted alot. blid played one turn too little so Mike you should play through to the year 575AD to even it up again. To be honest, it doesn't really matter that much does it?

Can anyone see any merit in keeping Yekaterinburg? I would keep Novgorod but maybe we can raze Yekaterinburg. It may have enough food if we chain farms to it and destroy the cottages that have been built, but it will be a bit of a drag on our economy at this point in time.

Kikin, you're right that Yekaterinburgh is useless. My only concern is that Gandhi settles there before culture expansions. The scout saw a galley of his wandering with a settler. We don't need cultural problems with him

Lets leave the city. It is not in a bad location, and like blid said Ghandi is hunting for settle place.

About Dr Judah... there is a simple way to save him. Sign a case fire. And when you're be ready to attack declar war again.

And where did this name came from (Dr Judah)?

Jeez... Such an simple and elegant way. Great idea Rihiter.

I guess it's showing that we (or at least I) do not use cease fires much. I normally sue for peace with a peace treaty or if I can't get anything I just keep on attacking. Can you resume attacking in the immediate next shot?

Can you resume attacking in the immediate next shot?

Yes, that is the beauty of it, though you gain no techs for sueing (assuming that she has any ]:->

Gandhi will not declare (don't like us enough). Cyrus don't even know Cathy

Keep trying... :)

Almost there

This is your Spoiler thread for mid-game discussions between teams on your progress so far.

To qualify to READ in this thread your team must know all the rivals in the game, or know of their demise.

You can determine that you have met or eliminated all your rivals by

(a) checking the Victory Conditions screen to see how many rivals you would need to eliminate for a Conquest victory, or

(b) watching for the messages that tell you how you are doing relative to the other civs. When the screen lists no Unknown civilizations you have found them all.

To qualify to POST in this thread a nominated scribe from your team must post a summary of your game up to the point defined above.

Your summary should include your early decisions on city placement, research, units and improvements, and the milestones in the development of your economy, civics, contacts and diplomatic relationships.

When posting, please do not discuss future events beyond the date you met the spoiler condition. And remember that your viewing public will be looking out for literary flair, historical accuracy, humour, and strategic insight. Comments on the SGOTM experience so far will also be welcome.

So, how was it for you? Still alive and kicking?

Who will be our scribe... I vote Rihiter or Kikinit, I know I can't, haven't researched (proper) writing yet.

I know I can't, haven't researched (proper) writing yet.
:D
We are not qualified for this spoiler yet. Still two civs to meet

I propose that one of us will put together a first draft and can send it off to each of the others to add their own comments and flair if any. This should be done by email rather than here so it will be 'new' when we post it on the spoiler thread.

:D
We are not qualified for this spoiler yet. Still two civs to meet
You are right so none of us are even allow to go into that thread yet. And really, we haven't even met HC yet.

You are right so none of us are even allow to go into that thread yet. And really, we haven't even met HC yet.

We are not allowed to write about anything after 500 AD, therefore, we can write a history of our glorious wars with Catherine and the rise of Duncan MacCloud between 4000BC - 500AD . Just to prepare a post...

Yes you are right. I think it's a matter of going through our early posts and putting together a draft and then putting the flourishing touches to it. I don't consider myself much of a story writer but am one of the native english speakers so don't mind putting the finishing touches on it. I guess Ralph, Mike and sooooo are also so we've got plenty of choice there.

Hmm, so am I allowed to read the spoiler or not? ZerrorR says we can write in the thread, but how is that possible if we cannot even open the thread because we haven't met everyone yet?

no I didn' say we can look at the thread... nor we can write in it, but we can prepare what has happened in one nice Fistful of Dynamite.doc And when we meet all civs, just post it then

sooooo, none of us can open that thread until we have met all the other civs. Our nominated scribe would then post our spoiler and then you can go in. Or at least that's what I understand.

I like writing, but I'm not native english, and what is more I have my exams coming up at the university soon. So I would rather like not to be the scribe.
But ofcourse I can help a little bit when we will decide who will be the scribe and start writing.

About the case fire... you can even start war in the same turn you sign the case fire ;]

When the next player is going to play? We need a plan until then ;] .

Yes, we need, What are you waiting for, mr. Secretary :D

keep the massacre going

:D

I got it.

Is a courthouse really worth it in Thebes? It will save us 1 gpt. If we had a couple of more units instead, Cat would be toast. As it it, I'm going to try for a cease fire heal up, then wipe her out.

I'm thinking we raze Yekaterinburg. There still looks like a spot on Gandhi's continent where he could grab spices and incense. I'd try for it myself if we had any galleys handy. He's probably got choicer spots and our borders will expand pretty quickly.

Any preferences on research after civil service? We could certainly use currency.

Should I go for an aqueduct in Thebes for health, and then the Hanging Gardens just because? We have stone and will have the bureaucracy production bonus too. It won't take long.

I'll play 16 turns tomorrow to even things out. I would go right now, but if anyone has any bright ideas first, I'd like to hear them.

Yeah not sure the courthouses in the towns near to Thebes are worth it. Especially in Thebes itself! :smoke:

My vote for tech is Currency, then Metal Casting.

Aqueduct -> HG seems fine; we'll want a market when currency comes in and then a forge. We could do with more galleys too.

OK, I read that the CH in Thebes is for the Future Palace. Fair enough I guess, but as Mike says a few more units would have been more useful. We only needed to build it to coincide with the 5th one being built. I take back my :smoke: :mischief:

We need that corthause. And we don't need any more units. Cathy is almost death and you want more units ? For what? I will write down a plan in a couple of hours and we will discuss it.

Like soooo said, courthouses are all being built to start forbidden palace at Moscow asap (need 6 to do that). I tried the best timing possible, delaying courthouse for monastery in Thebes and for lib at Memphis. The last courhouse in Yakutsk should be draggin by few turns

Concerning Thebes, I'd rather go for national epic and irrigate all the way to the rice and start more specialists. IMO, this is more powerful than HG. We don't need score here, we need to get the tech lead

For health and happiness, we'll grab two new sources of gems soon. Trade one to Cyrus for Wheat and the other one to Gandhi for silk
The rice near moscow will be ours soon too (remember that our rice is dealt for Gandhi)
Hook the sugar (ours is dealt for Gandhi again) for the happy

Tech-wise, I like currency too. AI tend to research it but is not willing to give right away

We should think of settling this units factory north and get it ready for the intercontinental war. It needs to get some infra and it is close to capital so it has little maintenance costs

Ok, here's my plan:

City production:
Thebes: finish CH -> Colosseum -> National Epic ( when Thebes reaches happy limit move those lazy bastards <citizens> from rice to mines. Work cottages all the time )
Memphis: wipe CH -> Monastery -> Aqueduct or Colosseum ( what will be needed )
Oh Drat: Missionaries ( we need 3 more for our continent ) -> Colosseum -> Harbour - should be avible until then, if not build library
Rostov; this city might be good as the "Unit Factory" so I propose: finish CH -> Heroic Epic
Yakutsk: finish CH -> lighthause -> library
St Petersburg: finish CH (no wiping ) -> library
Moscov: keep building library but change to Forbiden Palace when possible ( then chop it, chop it hard - as fast as possible ;] )
Yaroslav: granary -> lighthause
New cities: something to make them grow

Workers actions: (I will write what we need)
- finish current actions
- gems near St Pet.
- sugar near Moscov
- mine SSW of Yakutsk
- chop the forests around Moscov for the Forbbiden Palace ( fast ;] )
Ofcourse use those workers which are close to the place of work :P

Reserch:
We should stick to those techs which are compatible to our main strategy. So we should reserch only those tech which will give us science bost and also naval and military adventage ( and then permanent alliance ). Also we should get some techs which will allow us to build usuful wonders ( such as Hagia Sophia or Spiritual Minearet for example ), but not necessarly. All other techs we should get by trade.
Now our main goal is to find other civilizations and to dominate the seas. That is why I think that we should go straight to Optics. Ghandi has Metal Casting and he doesn't feel he should trade this tech so soon - so he will in the near future, that is why we should reserch Compas first and wait for Ghandi to be willing trading MC. I propose this:
Reserch patch: finish CS -> Compas -> if Ghandi will trade Metal Casting - trade it and start reserching Machinery, if he still doesn't want to trade MC start reserching Curency and trade MC when he decides he can trade it
USE BINARY RESERCH. NO TECH JUMPS NEEDED.

Goverment: change to Bureaucracy

Trades: like you said already
- get wheat from Cyrus
- get silk from Ghandi
- profitable tech trades ( Civil Service should be a nice catch for the AIs )

War: Finish Cathy. Don't raze cities! ( Yakaterinsburg and Novograd are at the best locations possible, there is no need of razing them - with the Forbiden Palace our economy will be good ).
Remember!!! Connor MacLeod must survive!!!!!:D:D:D
Keep those highly promoted catapults alive to if possible ;]

I think that's all. Any amends, corrections, ideas? Let the discussion begun. :]

In the future ( after Cathy is doomed ) we should make some settlers and found new cities in the good locations available ( to fill the whole continent ). Then concentrate on the reserch.

Rihiter, that seems like a sound plan to me. I have reserves about only two points :
- why colossuem in capital before national epic ? With silk and sugar, city won't grow unhappy before we finish both of them (we'll have +50% next turn)
- Heroic epic should'nt go to Rostov. It is to go to the blue dot down here. Rostov has the same number of hammers but don't have the food to work all the hills. The blue dot has plenty of food

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg


The other city should be settled right on the silver (silver dot :) ) and start a lighthouse immediately

We need to know what to do about the great scientist. He is due in 12 turns. My idea is to discover philosophy (this is one tech you can wait forever before AI wants to trade it). Switch to pacifism and caste system and start running merchants in Memphis when it has decent size and more scientists in Thebes. I think this is the right moment to run pacifism cuz we don't have a big army and we are not starting to build any before we get astro. If there are things to whip, we can switch back to slavery temporarily. We are spiritual so we should abuse of civics change

The other option is of course the academy in capital but this has long term benefit and we are running for fastest domination

National Epic in Thebes? Thebes is set up with cottages, not flood plains for specialists. Granted the Great Library is there, but I think a bigger population from the Gardens will give us a bigger jump towards victory. What do others think?

I wasn't even thinking of putting the Forbidden Palace on this continent, but I'll go along with that. A smaller boost sooner is better than the long term, since this is a sprint.

As for Connor surviving, he's our only CR unit left besides the catapults. Looks like he's staying home though. I won't risk him if he absolutely needs to survive.

I'll work in a settler somewhere to grab the Silver.

Are you sure we want to keep Yekaterinburg? It has no resource bonuses besides the copper, which is also in the fat cross of the other city. It will have 2 grasslands, a grassland hill, one plains, 2 mountains and some coast. Seems like a waste of time and income.

You have a good point about production in Thebes - we don't need colosseum right now. Start the N.epic right after CH.

About the blue dot... I would move it to the E ( on the desert ). It will has acces to fish then and still 5 floodplains.

We cannot settle on the silver, it is just a waste of a good tile. We should settle on the ice to the S ( ice - which is totally useless ). The city will have still plenty of sea tiles and also few hills for some production ( and the silver tile ofcourse ).

And I see Rosov still a better place for the Heroic Epic. In new city (blue spot) will get from hills 4*4H + 1*3H = 19H. In Rostov from hills and ore mines we can get 4*4H + 1*4H + 1*5H = 25H. And with lighthause and irrigation it will grow enough population to work all the hills plus iron and copper deposits.

The other option is of course the academy in capital but this has long term benefit and we are running for fastest domination
Fast domination = fast reserch. So Academy is quite needed. Philosophy would be a wast of great person to me ( we will get it in a trade sooner or later ).

National Epic in Thebes? Thebes is set up with cottages, not flood plains for specialists. Granted the Great Library is there, but I think a bigger population from the Gardens will give us a bigger jump towards victory. What do others think?
We don't need high population ( score doesn't counts ). Nepic in Thebes will provide us with many Great Scientists which will bost our reserch nicely.

As for Connor surviving, he's our only CR unit left besides the catapults. Looks like he's staying home though. I won't risk him if he absolutely needs to survive.
Don't worry. If he stays on tile with catapults and Wchariots , when Axe attack the catapult or chariots will do the defending.

I'll work in a settler somewhere to grab the Silver. First Cathy and Forbbiden Pallace, then new cities. We cannot allow our economy to catch a hiccup.

Are you sure we want to keep Yekaterinburg? It has no resource bonuses besides the copper, which is also in the fat cross of the other city. It will have 2 grasslands, a grassland hill, one plains, 2 mountains and some coast. Seems like a waste of time and income.
hmmm.... That is worth discussing.

National Epic in Thebes? Thebes is set up with cottages, not flood plains for specialists. Granted the Great Library is there, but I think a bigger population from the Gardens will give us a bigger jump towards victory. What do others think?

Thebes has still 2 flood plains to farm and lot of grassland. 2 of the cottages can be handed back to Memphis if necessary. IMHO, hanging gardens is not a great help.


Are you sure we want to keep Yekaterinburg? It has no resource bonuses besides the copper, which is also in the fat cross of the other city. It will have 2 grasslands, a grassland hill, one plains, 2 mountains and some coast. Seems like a waste of time and income.
I agree on the razing. Care with Gandhi wandering galleys though

BTW, we have a galley south and a scout wandering on Gandhi/Cyrus continent. The scout should embark the galley somewhere to get back home. We'll need him on a caravel soon



And I see Rosov still a better place for the Heroic Epic. In new city (blue spot) will get from hills 4*4H + 1*3H = 19H. In Rostov from hills and ore mines we can get 4*4H + 1*4H + 1*5H = 25H. And with lighthause and irrigation it will grow enough population to work all the hills plus iron and copper deposits.

Lighthouse don't give surplus food. They are just autosufficient tiles. With irrigating all the grasslands, we will still be short on one mine, so this gives 21H
For blue dot, I was counting 25H with stealing horses and cows from Oh Drat.
Thinking of it, penalizing Oh Drat to gain 4 hammers is not worth it. Another cottage spamming city is better. So I agree about 1E of blue dot



We cannot settle on the silver, it is just a waste of a good tile. We should settle on the ice to the S ( ice - which is totally useless ). The city will have still plenty of sea tiles and also few hills for some production ( and the silver tile ofcourse ).

If we settle on ice, we can't work silver cause city won't grow. So the best option is to grab the maximum possible sea tiles and this is the silver spot. Those hills don't have a single food either

About tactics...
Sigh a case fire. Units ready for action which we have now are: Swordsman, 2xWarChariot, 2xCatapult. So we could advance even before healing other units.
128079
I propose moving along the red arows 2 turns after the case fire. Take Connor, uninjured catapults and chariots, and advance toward Novograd. Start bombardment. Sword will be on a hill+forest tile so even an Axeman won't be any treat. And if he will damage the sword badly, chariots and catapults will do the defending then. Use the promotions for fast healing on the enemy territory. Other units will join the sidge when they'll be healed. Or even they will march toward Yakaterinburg at sight if the Novograd will fall already.

If we settle on ice, we can't work silver cause city won't grow. So the best option is to grab the maximum possible sea tiles and this is the silver spot. Those hills don't have a single food either
If we settle on silver the city won't grow without a lighthause either ( or extreamly slow ). If we settle on silver the city will have 14 sea tiles, if on ice will have 12 sea tiles. So generaly it doesn't make any difference (in the matter of food).
Ice = crap, hill with silver = useful (maybe someday we'll be able to work on it).
Second thing: location on ice is closer to the capital - less maintance.

Lighthouse don't give surplus food. They are just autosufficient tiles.
Yes. But still we can grow the city to a certain size using sea tiles and farms + sugar, and then move the citizens to work the mines. Even with hunger (-1 or -2 food ) the city will be able to work for many turns at 25H, and produce tons of units fast. Then change back to food production.

Lot's of good discussion going on here. Have we any chance of popping a settler onto the Gandhi/Cyrus island while there is still space? Even if it's not a great city?

I think we should just give Yekaterinburg a miss. If any of the AI settle there it will be overun with culture in no time.

There was a sweet spot with a couple of happiness resources on the other continent that I will grab if available. It was open last time our galley went by, but in the time it took to go around the other continent it was probably filled.

Not sure if everyone is aware of this, but galleys can move into ocean tiles we control, or that we have a right of passage with. From the map it looks like our galley hugged the coast the whole way. It's possible that by heading out into the ocean still within Indian or Persian borders we could have made contact with other civs or seen other land. Probably means nothing, but consider it next time if you weren't aware of this.

Looks like we go with national epic in Thebes then. I doubt a settler will be done before my turns are up, but I'd just settle on the silver. That way it's hooked up instantly. We'll never work it anyway without stopping growth in the new city since no tiles up there will give more than 2 food. The only reason to build a city up there is to get another happiness resource and for the land area for the domination limit. With no bonus food it's crap otherwise.

I'm going to raze Yekaterinburg. Just need to keep an eye on Gandhi and Cyrus, if they send a galley over we'll just close borders and shut them out till the culture expands.

I'm going to bed now. I'll check tomorrow morning for any other feedback and then play after I get home from brunch at my parents.

Everything looks good exept this silver thing. I have still concerns about it. ;]

Mostly followed the plan. Connor is still alive. Forbidden Palace and National Epic are completed. Built Academy in Thebes. Wiped out Catherine. Did binary science the whole way. We're one turn from currency at the handoff.

335 AD (Inherited Turn): Cease fire to save Dr Judah

350 AD: Revolt to Bureacracy and begin researching compass.

365 AD: Confucianism spreads in Kohlapor (Indian)

395 AD: We trade a spearman for a spearman and catapult - which is why one of our cats has shock promotion now - all I had left in Moscow was 2 catapults when Cathy started her last, laughable, invasion.

410 AD: In my first deviation from the plan, I start a settler in Oh Drat to claim the silver. (All of our missionary work is done until we found more cities.)

Novgorad falls with no losses on our part.

425AD: Sixth Courthouse is whipped to completion. Forbidden palace and deforestation started in Moscow.

455AD: A forest grows near Moscow. This means that we'll be able to leave forests in both of the tiles that overlap with Moscow and Yakust so both will still get +1 health.

485AD: Catherine is wiped out. I raze her last city. Put our galley and scout along the approach from India to make sure no one tries sneaking in a settler.

500AD: Compass is completed. Gandhi still won't trade Metal Casting. Cyrus will trade Horseback Riding for Alphabet and Polytheism. Seems like a decent deal for us, but why not wait for currency so we can get some cash out of him too? No deal.

515AD: Build Academy in Thebes

530AD: Forbidden Palace is completed

545AD: I found Heliopolis. Instead of going for the silver, I founded the city on the desert tile to the east of Oh Drat. This location gives us 5 floodplains, 3 plains hills to mine, and fish, along with a plains river and desert hill. I'm surprised we didn't cottage spam here sooner actually. Let's go cottage crazy here.

Happiness won't be an issue for a while and we have enough troops to move around if it does become a problem somewhere.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG001_AD0575_01.Civ4SavedGame

All in all, a supremely executed war against Cathy by all. We had minimal losses due to great planning and execution and a large slice of luck. Let's hope we can keep that going for a bit longer. It started halfway through my turns and took all the way through to Mike so it was a 60+ turns war. On that, let's hope the next one is a bit more decisive.

The Roster:
-- Kikinit
-- Rihiter
-- sooooo
-- blid
-- mike p -- Just Played
-- ZerrorR -- Up (for 15)
-- Ralph_Jackson (upcoming skip 26-30/June) -- On Deck

Great job mike. Yes, the silver can wait, right about starting the cottage spam already

Concerning Gandhi, he won't trade techs because he has monopoly. Let's get to friendly with him. Convert to buddhism, make the tech trades we want then get back to confucian. Spiritual is great help in such situations
Get Metal casting, then beeline to optics
I also thought of helping Cyrus by giving him alphabet or something Gandhi already has. If this guy can discover some techs, Gandhi will accept to trade them (like drama for example). OTOH, he will be pleased with us.

Trade for the wheat with Cyrus. Some cities will turn unhelathy on next population growth

We need to churn missionaries to spread the confucian word to the other continent (and earn more money). BTW, Memphis should be switched to market next turn once currency is discovered. This is the shrine city

We need to get a buddhist monastery too and spread buddhism in our cities. By the time we'll want to set a defensive pact with Gandhi, we'll need to convert to buddhism and keep it. AI can drop defensive pacts if attitude drops from friendly to pleased

I wasn't paying attention to this but take a look at persepolis :
coastal city with 5 sea food and ehmmm six plain hills, one of them with iron :eek:
And wonder how we got beaten to pyramids : the industrious Gandhi has stone in his capital BFC. And marble too but he can't chase two wonders and beat us at the two
I wonder if the map script did that :mischief:

First thing. ZerrorR, make sure you play on from the save from the gotm link that mike provided and not his uploaded save. Not sure if it will affect anything but better to be safe than sorry.

Game-wise: So what now? I would think we should be bee-lining to astronomy whilst we are going for some military techs to give us an army to take out HC. In the meantime, optics for caravels to find him.

So what are the paths to astronomy? I'll do some mapping it out in my lunch time.

Ok.. I'm at work so can't load up the save and check what techs we actually have and I don't have the fold-out so I have to work off the CFC tech tree. I would think that the tech research from here will go something like this.

Finish Currency (in 1)

Then Bee-line to Optics: Metal Casting (9) -> Machinery (17) -> Optics (15).
At this stage we can send out some caravels to get the circum bonus if it's still available and to find HC. We should also build CR macemen that can be later upgraded to Grenadiers.

We should be trying to get Metal Casting as trade material asap to speed this up.

Then we have two ways to get to Astronomy.
Calendar (we know already) -> Astronomy (49!) (if I read the tech tree right :confused: - I did but we've got calender)

Or: Liberalism slingshot. (the long way)
Paper (13), Philosophy (16), Calendar (0) -> Education (44) -> Liberalism (35)

Now Education and Liberalism have a lot of other uses as well as getting a free tech give this way a lot of merit, but missing it would really hurt our domination time. Education also opens up the alternate route to gunpowder and chemistry. Chemistry would need engineering dropped in or traded somewhere along the line.

Just to add to all those needs, we also need to think about getting a defensive pact as soon as possible if we expect to get a PA eventually with Gandhi. That means we need to consider the Military Tradition line as well.

I put this down for discussion and to be amended as we see fit. I will try and put some research times against them all when I am at home and can load the last save.

EDIT: Put in the tech timings. Note they are based on 50% research which is our current affordable level. We will probably do binary research but it should average to our affordable rate. We also may be able to get a great person to shortcut a tech or 2.

Yes, the optics bee-line is good. After that, we'll just have to see. If there's a civ we can realistically take out with macemen and catapults, we go for astronomy. If not, we should just go the usual way via education and liberalism.

I don't particularly like the phrase "bee-line", because there are often techs you need not on the bee-line too. We'll just have to wait until we meet everyone else. If a liberalism slingshot is feasable, we go for it. If we are likely to get beaten, we go via guilds and banking. If we're feeling risky, we get both banking and liberalism.

What I'm trying to say is that we need to be flexible, and see what our opponents are doing. The knowledge we get from optics is probably more valuable than any +25% bonus.

I got the save... I can play tonight and post a full review tommorow or tommorow night and post a review without pics early in the morning, after that I will be away until saturday...

Good job Mike.

Sounds good ZerrorR. I'll try to scratch some plan something around 21 or 22PM (CET), or maybe ealier if I find time.
I think that you're in the same time zone as I am.

If you could do it a bit earlier I would be gratefull, I am leaving my job at 20:00. plus we need to discuss it, maybe it is better to leave it until tommorow...

ZerrorR, I don't know about the rest of the team but I don't mind if you delay for tomorrow.
I was thinking that it would be good if you load the save, convert to buddhism and post a screenshot of the tech trades screen so that we can discuss the best options we have
Prefer to know what others think about that before though. Changing religion would cost us happiness points and the 25% production bonus for 5 turns

The happiness can be made up by stationing more troops, but the 25% in a building phase might be a bit costly. Unless we want to make some troops for a while and then we won't loose out so badly.

troops to attack what, I am against it... We don't need any more maintenance cost than we already have, I will micromanage to get most of the research going on... 50% is bad at 500AD, but we did have a rough war going on... Trust me, our economy will thrive after me :D

I am for 15 turns, right?

The happiness can be made up by stationing more troops, but the 25% in a building phase might be a bit costly. Unless we want to make some troops for a while and then we won't loose out so badly.

Well, the 25% bonus should be weighed out against the possibility of tech trading. Speaking of that, I know that a friendly attitude would erase the WFYABTA but is it the same for WDWTSTTTJY (we don't want to start trading ....). If not, then changing religion would be useless. Anyone experienced that before, I can't remember such a situation

Yes you are up for 15 turns ZerrorR. And I hope that you can make our economy thrive as 50% with so many courthouses, a shrine and the forbidden city does seem low.

. Speaking of that, I know that a friendly attitude would erase the WFYABTA but is it the same for WDWTSTTTJY (we don't want to start trading ....).

In my experience WDWTSTTTJY will still be there even if friendly as the AI is "doing something" with the Tech (Often Wonder building or aiming towards a wonder)

In my experience WDWTSTTTJY will still be there even if friendly as the AI is "doing something" with the Tech (Often Wonder building or aiming towards a wonder)

When doing something, message is WHOR (we have our reasons). I think WDWTSTTTJY stands for monopoly techs or techs detained by only one or 2 AIs

Anyway, I just figured that switching religion is not enough to become friendly with Gandhi. I made tests on an old save I had from another game and even changing religion and gifting techs to Alex was not enough to get him friendly (I was at +10). Maybe Gandhi is different but I won't take the risk.

Concerning economy, currency is due next turn (don't drop to 0%, let it finish at 90% then get back to binary science if you want) and I think we'll be in the green at 70%. We need >12 gold for that and we have 10 cities. The +1 trade route will definitely do it


Please don't neglect production by working sea tiles just to have a nice +80% in the green. Infrastructure is investment for the future

Ok, here's what I propose:

City production:
Thebes: Aqueduct -> Forge -> then Market of just Reserch ( rather Market since we use binar reserch )
Memphis: we should finish Galley first ( after 10 turns in the quelle units starts to loos hammers ) -> forge (wipe) -> then harbour
Oh Drat: Settler -> forge -> harbour or lighthause
Heliopolis: granary -> forge (wipe)
Rostov; finish HE -> Lighthause -> forge -> harbour
Yakutsk: library ( change to forge when possible ) -> after those buildings we could build some buddish missionaries and spread it to other cities
St petersburg: finish library -> start harbour ( change to forge when possible )
Moscov: finish library -> start monastery ( change to forge... )
We need some farms around Moscov
Yaroslav: finish granary -> couthause ( change to forge <wipe>....)
Novograd: granary -> forge (wipe) -> corthause

Workers actions: (I will write what we need)
- more cottages around Thebes ( it would improve our reserch )
- cottages around Heliopolis and build mine there
- make more cottages around Memphis ( it could be useful I think ), and a mine on hill/desert
- drag irrigation to rice near Thebes and Rostov
- make some farms near Moscov and drag irrigation to Novograd
- we could build plantation over another sugar

Reserch: go to optics
Metal Casting ( trade if possible ) -> Machinery -> Optics
After those Techs I propose Engineering ( to build hagia Sophia - we must discus if we want to build it or not )
USE BINARY RESERCH. NO TECH JUMPS NEEDED.

Goverment & Religion: I think we shouldn't change our religion yet. Metal Casting is a matter of 4 or 5 turns for us, and saving those turns isn't worth loosing the 25% production bonus.

Trades:
Wait until currency is finished and trade Horses for Wheat + cash/t with Cyrus. Also if Ghandi will have some free cash to spare renegotiate current trades if possible.

Army: Change swordsman's name to Connor MacLeod :D. Use units to provide cities with happines. Kill barb galley on the N, before settling there ( the galley could go for our fishing boats then ).

Discuss, etc., etc...

My 2 cents before getting to bed :
Don't attack the barb galley, let it attack instead. Go when you have two galleys. If we loose and it gets promoted, it can be a real pain in the a$$

Don't forget to pick the scout before getting back the galley home

For Hagia sophia, it is a bit early to decide but I think it is rather a gamble against Gandhi. Remember he is industrious and has marble. I'd prefer to go for libaralism path and trade for engineering later

And I am not sure about the cottages in MemphisThebes. I'd rather put farms and hire scientists. Otherwise, IMO we'll be wasting national epic effect. Once we get drama, we can hire artists too. Artists help a lot for triggering dominations. You can kill revolt in city and culture bomb will grab all the ravaged battlefield

Agree though about cottaging all around Memphis.

I don't see confucian missionaries in the plan but I guess they can wait for the next turnset when infrastructure is up ;)

And I am not sure about the cottages in Memphis. I'd rather put farms and hire scientists. Otherwise, IMO we'll be wasting national epic effect. Once we get drama, we can hire artists too. Artists help a lot for triggering dominations. You can kill revolt in city and culture bomb will grab all the ravaged battlefieldI think you meant Thebes and I agree. We have put the National Epic there so should be looking at specialists.

As usual Rhiter is mostly right. Only thing is - Moscow has plenty of food and then some. It should take over the mine it shares with St. Pete's, but it has a cows, sugar and rice and every land tile is grassland. We're running a big food surplus already - there's enough food to work every tile without building more farms there. Moscow needs either cottages if it's a commerce city, or workshops if it's going to be a production city.

You can chain the farms to the south off of the rice tile without needed to build new farms more Moscow. For the most part, our workers need to concentrate on Thebes, Rostov, Heliopolis & Memphis IMO.

I am playing tonight... hehe,
first copy paste, then economy,
maybe to throw another worker in?

I forgot about this one. Memphis should start a market after the galley. This is the shrine city

EDIT : and yes I was referring to Thebes for the farm spamming. Get units there if unhappiness strike

These are city specialization basics I always try to follow

I would like to start markets, wherever we have high commerce ===> more money ===> more research ===> faster domination
25% production boost is not primary here, since we are not to attack anyone soon, I hope, until we find HC
I repeat, only in cities with high commerce :)

I forgot about this one. Memphis should start a market after the galley. This is the shrine city
That's true, I forgot about the market and it should be build after the galley.

Farms and specialists in Thebes is a good idea too. But I like to accent that we are going for a fast domination so we need fast reserch and military adventage. So we should mostly go after great scientists. About great artists... they can be useful but we don't need cultural bombs realy -> we are planing to conquer all the land which is on the other island so geting some tiles fast isn't so importand. But we could use some great merchants. Our economy might have a problem with handling fast expansion ( after finding the last continent ) and great merchants might be quite useful if that happens. It's better to be prepared for that kind of situation.

I would like to start markets, wherever we have high commerce ===> more money ===> more research ===> faster domination
25% production boost is not primary here, since we are not to attack anyone soon, I hope, until we find HC
I repeat, only in cities with high commerce :)
If we use binar reserch almost every city has much comerce for some time. But building forges will alow us to build markets faster too.

Notice that we will lower our reserch rate to 0% in few turns. And then we will turned it back to 100%. So markets are going to be needed in something like 15 - 20 turns ( it's impossible to build them before this first 0% term ). So it's better to build forges now, and then ( before the next 0% term ) we will build markets.
Memphis is the only city which needs market now.

ZerrorR, just to let you know, 15 turns is up to 800AD as far as I can tell.

Good luck. :ninja:

CU tommorow morning

ZerrorR, are you going to be able to get this today?

If not, we may have to skip you as you're approachng 72 hours and we need to keep this moving so everyone stays interested. This message is only to see what's going on as you are still within the allowed window.

To all, if you have any days or time that you know you won't be able to play, give us some notice and we'll swap it around and work something out.

Save uploaded,
empire is forged, i dont have time to post a full review, but i didi ok
research at 60% in green

timeline

Turn 205, 575 AD: You have discovered Currency! *at 100% :D

Turn 206, 590 AD: You have constructed Heroic Epic in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 207, 605 AD: Confucianism has spread in Heliopolis.

Turn 209, 635 AD: The borders of Heliopolis have expanded!

Turn 210, 650 AD: You have trained a Galley in Memphis. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 210, 650 AD: Ptolemy has been born in a far away land!

Turn 211, 665 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 211, 665 AD: The borders of Yakutsk have expanded!

Turn 212, 680 AD: You have trained a Settler in Oh Drat. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 212, 680 AD: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 214, 710 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Thebes. Work has now begun on The Hanging Gardens.
Turn 214, 710 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Memphis. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 214, 710 AD: You have constructed a Forge in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 214, 710 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Confucian Monastery.

Turn 215, 725 AD: Cyrus adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 215, 725 AD: The Sistine Chapel has been built in a far away land!
Turn 215, 725 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Galley (2.20)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Combat Odds: 31.9%
Turn 215, 725 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Fistful of Dynamite's Galley is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Fistful of Dynamite's Galley is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 215, 725 AD: Fistful of Dynamite's Galley has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 216, 740 AD: Elephantine has been founded. *at silver
Turn 216, 740 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!
Turn 216, 740 AD: Ling Lun has been born in a far away land!

Turn 217, 755 AD: Islam has been founded in Hyderabad!

Turn 218, 770 AD: Fistful of Dynamite has completed The Hanging Gardens!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Vassalage!

Turn 219, 785 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 219, 785 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 219, 785 AD: Ananda has been born in Delhi!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Hypatia has been born in Persepolis!

()ptics in 6 at 60%, few deals are renegotiated,

Anything of note happen? Find HC yet? Any diplomacy or trades? Are we to expect a report?

Here's the roster.
-- Kikinit -- On Deck
-- Rihiter
-- sooooo
-- blid
-- mike p
-- ZerrorR -- Just Played
-- Ralph_Jackson (upcoming skip 26-30/June) -- Up (for 15)

Ralph, you should play to the year 1025AD as far as I can tell. It gets a bit confusing here. Just in case you loose count anyway :p .

I guess now's as good a time as any to discuss whether or not we should go to 10 turns after Ralph. We'll let him do 15 as being at the end of the roster has meant that he's only on his 2nd shot and we are at 800AD.

OK will look at the save tonight and post any questions / my plan-Then play and post tomorrow night.

Suggestions, plans and instructions gratefully received, I will not be upset so feel free to teach Grandma (I am quite old:) ) to suck eggs as I want to minmise any :smoke: moves.

Ralph

I am sorry I had to be brief as I hadn't time to write more, nothing realy impotant happened,

I edited my previous post with a logfile with some remarks. I gave Alphabet to Cyrus for 130 gp, made +6gp/turn renegotiating, on the team scoretable we are now first :D

now I have to run... again...

Looks good. But didn't we agreed not to build the Hanging Gardens ?

We should think about future strategy.
Our current first goal ( finding other lands ) is almost ready to be started: Optics -> Caravel.
After this me must decide what to plan next? Do we want to build some wonders? Do we want to reserch something which is beside our mine tech route? Or do we just want to go straight science+navy+military and conquer then?

My proposition is ( since the score doesn't count!!! ) Optics -> Engeniring (optional) -> then go straight to Education ( build Oxford University ) -> Liberalism ( get Actronomy with it )-> Economics ( with everything what needed -> reserch or trade it ) -> go straight to Iron ( cannon ) -> then go to Rifling -> CONQUER + go to permanent alliance

If we decide to use this route we will skip most of the techs from the upper part of the tech tree. And we will go straight for fast conquere ( which is the main goal of this SGOTM! ).

Othere way is to reserch some "upper techs" , try to build some wonders... etc. First thing would be to reserch Divine Right and try to beat Ghandi in building Spiritual Mineraet. But since he allready has DR it might be immpossible. So I propose: F*** the wonders and techs from the upper side, go straight military and rule the world ;]

We agreed to prioritize National Epic over Hanging Gardens, but Thebes needed the aqueduct anyway and was able to finish the Gardens relatively quickly. Probably worth it for just the +1 health and GE points, the added population is just gravy. And it keeps our opponents from getting bigger too.

We need to go forth and conquer the world.

If we get to liberalism first, what is more valuable? Astronomy or Nationhood? Nationhood is a pre req for permanent alliances. The sooner we start that, the closer we'll be to victory. Are we definitely going Military or could we win a Diplomatic victory if we get Cyrus and Gandhi both on our side?

Da Plan, feel free to correct before I play later this evening

Research

Optics - Paper aiming for Liberalism. Gandhi has researched Phislosphy, but wont trade it yet (aiming for Angkor Wat?? or probably just preserving a monopoly Tech) hopefully we can pick this up in a trade over the coming turns to shorten our :science: needs for Liberalism.

Builds

Harbors and Markets other than St Petersburg and Oh Drat who will go for a caravel each when Optics comes in. Aim to Build a missionary for each as we can infect somebody with Confusionism when we encounter them.

What do we want do do if we pop a Great Prophet in Thebes rather than a scientist burn him for Theology?

Longer term.

When we get close to liberalism we will reach a fork in the roads.

Do we go down the bottom side by picking up astronomy then gunpowder / Chemistry :hammer: or top side by picking up Nationalism (aiming for Fascism for Perm Alliance). My gut tells me that we shouldn't divert to Nationalism but stick with the bottom half as it get us to war with our distant neighbours sooner. Not something we need to decide before I play but a key choice. I think

I think we need more workers (2 or 3) for all this continent. We have enough happiness and health to prosper.
- Irrigate the rice at Thebes and farm the new built cottage and the unimproved Flood Plain
- Farm all grassland at Rostov
- Mine the hill S,SW of Yakutsk and get it into Yakutsk cultural control. This city can serve as buddhist missionaries factory
- At St-Petersburgh. jungle clearing
- Cottage spam at Moscow. It has academy, so it is better as scientist city
- Cottage spam at heliopolis

We need to cancel the silver for dye deal with Gandhi. We have forges but we don't have theatres so silver is better than dyes

About caravels, I was thinking one to go east, probably at Rostov and the other to go west at St-petersburgh or Oh-Drat. The confucian missionaries is a good idea. Just wander with them a bit before burnin'

After optics, I also prefer to go directly for paper->edu->lib.

Too bad we can't see what are the techs we have up HC
Just wrote that then had the idea to go to tech screen and click on the leader head. What a moron I am, this is the first time I use that. Well, it says that HC needs CS and ... alphabet :eek: . But he is up with 4 techs and he already has optics

Maybe we can sneak guilds before the liberalism slingshot and get some knights. This way we will have an army ready when we get astro. we'll have some galleys waiting to upgrade then straight to kill HC
With cats, maces and knights, it is possible to take him down before grenadiers.

For the diplo, I fear we'll have Cyrus as opponent. This expansive guy is second in food graph.
Gandhi is first in power graph. We need to find a solution for this as well to be able to get the permanent alliance
But all this will be much clearer once we meet the missing AIs. That is Ralph job

The bottom tech path next sounds nice to my ears : chemistry = frigates + grenadiers. And cannons just rule, even against rifles

I think we need more workers (2 or 3) for all this continent.
We need to cancel the silver for dye deal with Gandhi. We have forges but we don't have theatres so silver is better than dyes

About caravels, I was thinking one to go east, probably at Rostov and the other to go west at St-petersburgh or Oh-Drat.

Agreed on more workers and cancelling the Silver deal, we need to use the silver with our forges or we will end up wondering why we ever settled Elephantine!!

I picked St Pete's not Rostov for number 2 Caravel as it has better production and will soon finish its market.

Ralph

Pre-Turn
Silver deal can’t be cancelled yet come back later

Turn1-2 Rostov & Oh Drat go to worker which will complete before optics comes in

Pop a great Prophet from Capital put him to sleep as I cant decide best use and would rather discuss with the team.

Spread Buddhism to Thebes as it has no priority builds and can act as missionary Factor for a bit.

Turn 3 :coffee: and start on Blid’s excellent worker check list :goodjob:

Turn 4 :coffee:

Turn 5 optics in switch to Paper order up 2 Caravels.

Turn 6 Hook up fishes w of Heliopolis

And what is this we See HC’s work boat he is near or being clever and exploring with a WB?? (Quite pleased to have noticed this in a sad way!)

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/nicespot.jpg

965 AD Thebes has popped 2 confucian missionaries for the Caravels. Starts on a Buddhist Monas for the 10% :science:

980 AD Caravel form Oh Drat launched NE cancel silver

995AD Carvel 2 launched NW

1010 Cyrus demands we switch to Buddhism I refuse

1025 Education due in about 14 with Binary research

Education due in about 14 (hard to tell with Binary Research)
Economy before and after
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/econstartend.jpg
and the check list

- Irrigate the rice at Thebes (done) and farm the new built cottage and the unimproved Flood Plain (not done)
- Farm all grassland at Rostov (done)
- Mine the hill S,SW of Yakutsk(done) and get it into Yakutsk cultural control. This city can serve as buddhist missionaries factory
- At St-Petersburgh. jungle clearing (started)
- Cottage spam at Moscow(started). It has academy, so it is better as scientist city
- Cottage spam at heliopolis(started)

The save upload http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG001_AD1025_01.Civ4SavedGame

Just noticed we have more posts than any other SGOTM thread bar one that has twice as many as us!!

Ralph, things are looking good :goodjob:

HC is our neighbour :eek: Let's see how good are his our lands

BTW, I agree with Kikinit about the 10 turns

Just noticed we have more posts than any other SGOTM thread bar one that has twice as many as us!!

Well, we are second after VQ and they have a good advance :) though they are more advanced in the game than any other team

Okey! That looks good!We finaly seen HC! And what is more it seems that he is quite close to us!

So after Astronomy we'll be able to lunch our armies at him. But before that we must prepare those armies! He's got the longbowmens, so we need something in advance to take them out. HC is equal powerfull to us ( military ) and he is little less advended ( reserch ) then us... but his score is rather low. So I think that he doesn't have many cities nor much land.

Currently we have one highly promoter city rider male unit and 7 nicley promoted catapults. I think that to conquer HC we will need cannons and then Riflemans . Macemans ( promoted Connor as well ) and catapults aren't enough to take him smoothly.

First lets finish Astronomy ( if we take it as a free tech with Liberalism it will take us something about 30 turns to reserch it ). When we will have Astronomy, we'll promote our Galleys to Galleons ( and maybe build one or 2 more ) then lunch them on his territorial waters and be as much pain in the a** for him as possible. That include complet destruction of his navy. During that we will fill the lower part of the tech tree to get Grenadiers and Cannons ( during that we'll also reserch Banking and Economisc to make sure our economy will handle with more maintance - ane we'll save the great merchant for bad times or just implant him to our cash city ).Also during that we could reserch Printing Press to get more money from our cottages. When we'll get Iron we'll attack HC using cannons, macemans, grenadiers and knights.

About the Greats Prophet... I would make him join our cash city ( memphis ). He will give us +5C and +2H ( Memphis has little of those ).

One is for sure. We don't need to go after the Permanent Alliance before we get Iron, simply because we don't need to get into an alliance before conquering other rivals then Ghandi and Cyrus.

About economy and production... Spread buddism only into our biggest cities, and then start building confucian missionaries. We must spread it on the continent controled by Ghandi and Cyrus. It will be a good way to keep our economy prosperous during future conquests. So stop building those buddist missionaries ( let Ghandi spread his religion by himself ) and concentrate on spreading our religion.

Cyrus is offering the same tech for trade as Ghandi. Lets trade with him since he is less advenced then Ghandi.

Ah... one more thing. Don't build more workers. We will get feudalism ( serfdom ) soon. By building more workers we only increase our maintance costs.

Ofcourse we could try to attack HC earlier then with cannons, but would it be a good idea? Although we could try one thing... taking one city on his continent. Build hard defences there and let him wast his troops trying to get it back while we will get cannons and then finish him off.

During the sea exploration we must watch out for vacant islands ( especialy those small ones). When we find that kind of an island we should build a settler and send him there ( but not settle ). The settler will wait until some of other AI players will try to settle there or to the end of the game ( settle at the one of the last turns to get land % ). If we let our rivals to settle on those islands it will lenghten a lot time needed to dominate the world.

If only we had founded Heliopolis earlier. With two more border expansions, we could have gotten to HC without Astronomy.

Priest in Memphis sounds OK, but what tech will he provide if we use him for research? We are going for speed here so it might be better to use him for instant beakers.

Nicely done Ralph.

Now we know why those mountains are like that. To stop us from putting a city onto the tip and getting to HC by a culture bridge. We have to get Astronomy to get to him.

I like the idea of trying to get a city onto his continent that we can start staging forces from. It'll have to have some defenses though as I expect that HC would start throwing lots at it.

The Roster:
-- Kikinit -- Up (for 10)
-- Rihiter -- On Deck
-- sooooo
-- blid
-- mike p
-- ZerrorR
-- Ralph_Jackson (upcoming skip 26-30/June) -- Just Played

I will be getting this tomorrow night 24 hours from now, so we can discuss how we want to proceed in the meantime.

Priest in Memphis sounds OK, but what tech will he provide if we use him for research? We are going for speed here so it might be better to use him for instant beakers.

He will provide Theology

Ralph

Well we definitely need theology for when we go full-on mililtary mode, so I guess that's the best use for him/her.

Mmm ... cannons ... *drools*

I would rather put him in Memphis.

Just a point about this war with HC. We can never declare peace or even cease fires. So any WW that develops in the war will stay until we can eliminate his last city. For this reason, we want to make it quick and decisive.

If we have a city on his continent that is constantly being attacked and we loose a few units then WW will start. So maybe it's not wise to settle a city until just prior to we're ready to go at him with everything. WW will badly dampen our research if let to get too far out of control.

Some of my statement is conjecture as I don't fully understand WW. Can it ever reduce over time while you are still at war and not suffering any losses?

war weariness

edit... sorry, wrong article

:lol: I just read about 20 messages on that page and then I saw the dates and thought... huh... Civ4 wasn't even out then (2003). It's all for Civ3. Wonder if there's something similar for Civ4.

Here's my plan of attack. I'll be playing in about an hour.

1. Explore with galleys. Goals: 1. Find out about HC's lands, 2. Circumnavigation (on this, Gandhi has optics too and may beat us to it).

2. City Builds:
Thebes: Buddhist Missionary -> Research (to speed up Education)
Memphis: Market (8) :whipped: -> Lighthouse
Oh Drat: Market (8) -> Conf. Missionary
Rostov: Library (9) -> Maceman
Yakutsk: Market (2) -> Harbor
St. P: Barracks (3) -> Maceman -> Conf. Missionary
Moscow: Cat (4) -> Maceman
Yaroslavl: Harbor (12)
Novgorod: Harbor (3) -> Library
Heliopolis: Courthouse (28) :whipped: -> Library
Elephantine: Lighthouse (71) :whipped: -> Courthouse

Our troops are costing us a little in maintenance but we need to start building in cities that haven't got anything else to do.

I need a ship to take the missionaries over to Cyrus/Gandhi. If there isn't one, I'll build one somewhere.

3. Workers: Thebes: Farm the new built cottage + FP
St. P: Jungle Clearing
Moscow & Heliopolis: Cottage Spam
Otherwise, develop cells that cities are working that aren't developed.

4. Civics: No Change

5. Military: May exchange a boat or 2 for the macemen. Watch maintenance costs.

6. Tech: Education in 14. May shorten a bit by putting Thebes onto research.

7. Great Prophet: merge into Memphis.

Just had a look at Gandhi and boy is he some research hound. He's damned hard to keep in front of. Cyrus also wants extortionate deals in trade so I don't think I'll do any at the start but I'll keep an eye on it. HC is a bit backwards at the moment and hasn't met Cyrus and Gandhi (IIRC). Hopefully we will start mowing through him before he gets a chance to get any techs from them.

Pretty well to plan. Met all the Civs now (I think) and we are 1 turn away from the circumnavigation bonus (again, I think).

(0)-1025AD - I started by renegotiating our deals with Cyrus. I cancelled the sugar for 4g and gave Sugar for Wheat and Gems for 6g. We are running into health caps in a few cities so it will come in handy.

Rostov is way short of food. I send the workers to chop a forest to make way for a farm. The chop is going towards a library so it's not too bad.

One point to note Ralph, be cautious when grouping all the workers into stacks. When they finish what they were tasked to do, if there's still one worker turn left then all the workers that have finished just sit and waste a turn that could be spent moving to the next task. I find it best to just separate them always. Even if they are following each other and doing the same things.

(1) - I renegotiated the sugar to Gandhi deal for 1 more gold.
Thebes was set to Research which shortens the time to education by a few turns. The prophet was merged into Memphis. Make sure to build all the money buildings here to make the most of it.

(2) - Here's an island to the North of Gandhi.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0105.jpg

Yakutsk: Market -> Harbor for the trade route money.

Here's a pic of HC's town Vilcas.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0106.jpg

(3) - St. P: Barracks -> Caravel (for shipping missionaries)
Novgorod: Harbor -> Library
I decide not to whip Memphis. The market is due in 4 and the city will take much longer to grow back. The whip is really losing it's effectiveness for us at the moment.

Here's a pic of the next HC town Vilcabamba.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0107.jpg

(4) - Rostov: Library -> Caravel
Moscow: Catapult -> Maceman

IBT: Hmmm Gandhi offers Feudalism for CS. I contemplate long and hard and decide to give it a go as we need to get out workers moving quicker and Cyrus won't give anything of value. I immediately revolted to Serfdom as it's more useful to us right now. I got him to throw in his world map as well but it didn't reveal anything new that I can see.

(5) - Another of HC's towns. Machu Picchu.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0108.jpg

I spread confucianism to Gandhi's city of Bangalore with the caravel on the way west around the world. The eastern caravel has nowhere to drop his missionary yet.

(6) - Memphis: Market -> Lighthouse
Rostov: Caravel -> Confucian Missionary

(7) - ooooooooh... oooooooh... I can see a blue border.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0109.jpg

A great scientist is born in Thebes. He will give education or 1H/6 beakers. He's sleeping in Thebes.

A picture of the next HC town, Huamanga.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0110.jpg

(8) - Oh Drat: Market -> Confucian Missionary
St. P: Caravel -> Maceman

Here's the trade screen with Roosevelt whom we finally meet.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0112.jpg

(9) - And we meet Saladin. Here's his trade screen.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0114.jpg

That's everyone right? Now we have to do the halfway spoiler without giving anything away that others wouldn't already know.

(10)-1130AD - Rostov: Confucian Missionary -> Maceman

The years are weird now. I think they are going in 6's. It's quite hard to know what turn you are on. I use F8 which says how many turns are left to tell me how it's going.

The circumnavigation bonus, if still available should come next turn. I haven't seen notices or heard the noise that accompanies it so we should be ok.

HC's got guilds so we will probably be up against a few knights when we go attack him. We'll need a few pikes in each stack to guard against them.

There is a boat on the way to Oh Drat to pick up the missionary that is due in the next turn. Education is due in a few. I didn't write it in my notes. I guess we are going straight for Liberalism and get Astronomy as our free tech.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG001_AD1130_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Turn 236, 1040 AD: Buddhism has spread in Memphis.

Turn 237, 1055 AD: Mo Tzu has been born in Delhi!

Turn 240, 1100 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Fistful of Dynamite adopts Serfdom!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Confucianism has spread in Bangalore.

Turn 241, 1106 AD: Zu Chongzhi has been born in Thebes!
Turn 241, 1106 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' have expanded!
Turn 241, 1106 AD: Cyrus adopts Vassalage!
Turn 241, 1106 AD: Cyrus adopts Serfdom!

Turn 243, 1118 AD: Gandhi has completed The Masjid al-Haram!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Cai Lun has been born in a far away land!

Turn 244, 1124 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Mercantilism!

One more thing.

The Roster:
-- Kikinit -- Just Played
-- Rihiter -- Up (for 10)
-- sooooo -- On Deck
-- blid
-- mike p
-- ZerrorR
-- Ralph_Jackson (upcoming skip 26-30/June)

I think 10 was more than enough. The turnsets are going to take a while now with all the MM that we are doing trying to run things at their best.

Ok, I think that I will play tonight. Any sugestions?

I will write a plan before playing ( in few hours, not sure when exactly).

In my opinion 10 turns is a little short term, but I will stick to others will.

Plan for my 10 turns:

City production:
Thebes: Longbowman ( explained below ) -> change to university when possible
Memphis: finish lighthause -> university
Oh Drat: finish missionary -> missionary -> univeristy
Heliopolis: continiue with the corthause
Rostov: I'll build longbowmans in this city
Yakutsk: finish harbour -> monastery
St petersburg: continiue with mace man ( change to univeristy when possible - to minimize unit cost ) -> after univeristy finish the maceman
Moscov: finish maceman -> university
Yaroslav: finish harbour -> lighthause
Novograd: finish library -> university
Elephantine: continiue with lighthause

I'm planing to change to Slavery in some turns, to wipe those universities a little. We need 6 universities as fast as we can to build Oxford in Thebes.

Workers actions:
I will improve what is needed.

Reserch:
main plan: finish Education -> Liberalism

But there is another option. Since none of our rivals has Education or even Paper then they cannot reserch Liberalism. So we can reserch something first. There are few options:
1) Astronomy, and then use Liberalism to get something more valuable ( for example Iron after few other techs )
2) Devine Right and try to build Spiritual Mineraet ( risky )
3) or just Guilds...etc.... go to Iron, and reserch Liberalism when Iron will be avaible
Not reserching Liberalism right now has one big advantage... We don't have Philosophy which is needed to reserch it. If we wait with it and reserch something else we will be maybe able to trade the Philosophy.

Goverment & Religion: turn to slavery again to wipe some universities ( somewhere at the end of my turns ).

Trades:
- I'll try to get HBR and Teology. Washington want's to trade both of those techs and Cyrus will trade HBR.
- And maybe Philosophy if becomes available.

Army:
The Caravel which is going to Oh Drat will go to Yaroslav and from there it will transfere the missionaries to Ghandis land ( because -> caravel 3 movement on sea, missionary 4 movement on road ).

I'm not planing to build more land offensive units now ( I will just finish those which are started already ). We should build some archers/longowmans to replace swords, catapults and WarChariots used as city garrison. Then after reserching needed techs we will upgrade them to Macemans, Cannons and Knights.

Discuss:
- do we want to try building the Spiritual Mineraet???
- wait with the reserch of Liberalism. And if yes what to reserch? ( I propose Guilds->...->Iron or Astronomy and then Guilds... and start Liberalism if somebody gets Education )

I will play in 3 hours.

I am in a hurry so didn't have time to check a lot.


One thing is about confucian missionaries. Send them to Persia in priority, not Gandhi. It is easier to convert a non religion founding civ and we want them to drop relations a bit. If they sign a defensive pact, we may not even be able to declare on Cyrus :sad:
We need to keep 2 galleys north. HC have settled a city that will touch our borders once it reaches its first expansion. He may use our culture to bring galleys, though I don't know if you can use culture bridges with enemies
I don't mind about delaying astro if we are not going to war immediately. The path I would use is printing press->guilds->gunpowder .... You have a great scientist there and my guess is that he will help with printing press once education is discovered. So sacrificing a few more turns to finish PP and get the extra money is worth it IMO.
I thought you were going to farm the new cottage in capital, and I see yet another new one :crazyeye: . Don't know about this, I don't like it much. And the capital is using a great engineer. What is the point of it ? Use another scientist to up the odds or we'll finish with another prophet or artist
Getting the continents shapes with caravels is a no brainer

Concerning playing 10 turns, it is like that so sooooo can't capture/raze all cities on his own :). Good luck

...3 hours later...

OK. I'm plaing...

turn 0 (AD1130):
- Some micro managing... mostly I changed specialists in cities to normal workers ( I don't understand why do you use specialist so much in cities where we don't want and don't have any chance to generate great person ). I also maximized food production in some cities due to the plan of wiping univerisities.
- Cyrus: HBR + world map for Compas
- Roosvelt: world map + 80gp for world map...
128744
...Roosvelt has more land and more cities ( R-10, S-7 ), but Saladin has founded 3 religions. Most powerfull religion on the continent is Hunduism ( stage religion for both R and S ). So there is a chance to spread confucionizm in USA ( but is it worth our precious time? ).

I'm looking at our territory and I just can not understand why do you build so many cottages in such a stupid places? For example near the lake (near Oh Drat ) where is a perfect spot for a farm and near the river ( where a cottage could have more sence ) you are building farm...
Or cottages near Moscow. What is the sense of building cottages in 1100AD on tiles without any gold? They will mature to vilages or Towns after 100turns.. or something like that. We want to finish this game in 100 or 200 turns max!!! Please stop building cottages. We have enough. So I'm building them ( only those which don't have sense ) and starting for exampe: dragging irrigation to St Petersburg.

I have seen that many players have this weird habbit to build cottages almost everywhere... and I just don't know why are they doing that ;]. Cottages are needed near your science city, cash city, and maybe on floodplains when you have a lot of food even with them. But building them EVERYWHERE is just without sense.

turn 1 (AD1136):
- we have circumnavigated the globe
- harbour in Yakutsk -> monastery
- missionary in Oh Drat -> monastery ( we have max missionaries )
- pop up in: Moscow, St Petersburg, Yaroslaw and Heliopolis

turn 2 (AD1142):
- Education reserched, using the great scientist for Printing Press ( he gave 2600 :science: ) and finishing it
- pop up in Thebes
- longbowman in Thebes -> University
- Lighthause in memphis -> University
- Maceman in Moscow -> University
- Harbour in Yaroslav -> Lighthause
- Library in Novgorod -> University
- prod. in St Petersburg changed to University
- prod. in Oh Drat changed to University
- HC caravel is near Memphis... there is also our Caravel, I hope our will win ;]

turn 3 (AD1148):
- unfortunately our Caravel has lost...
- prod. in Rostov changed to Longbowmen ( almost finished Mace is left in quelle to minimize unit costs )
- started chooping some trees for universities
- open borders with Roosvelt
- unloaded our missionary on Roosvelt land, Caravel is sailing away to explore the sea...
- pop up in Oh Drat

turn 4 (AD1154):
- pop up in Rostov
- Confucionizm has spread in Chicago ;]
- I have disbanded our Scout ( there is no more land to explore so he was useless )
- trade with Cyrus renegociated ( +1gp/t )
- trade with Ghandi renegociated ( +1gp/t )

turn 5 (AD1160):
- Printing Pras finished ( +12 beakers in Thebes!!! ) -> Guilds
- pop up in Yakutsk

turn 6 (AD1166):
- pop up in Moscov and Heliopolis
- I'm using our galleys as a decoy, and HC caravel is chasing them along the shore :D

turn 7 (AD1172):
- Longbowman in Rostov -> longbowman ( Mace still waits in quelle )
- Hagia Sophia has been built in far away land... that means HC because only he has Engeniring. What's interesting, he has used a great engenire because he have reserched Engeniring the same turn! Smartass...

turn 8 (AD1178):
- pop up in Thebes, Oh Drat, Rostov
- Corthause in Heliopolis -> forge
- Confucionizm has spread to Pasargarde
- ok... University in Thebes is going to be finished in 1 turn... so I'm changing civic to Slavery and wiping other universities all over the continent ( 5 other cities ). So it's going to be some rough wiping.... ;]

name: pop wiped = pop after
Oh Drat: -2 pop = 13
Mamphis: -3 pop = 9
St Petersburg: -2 pop = 6
Moscov: -2 pop = 10
Novgorod: -2 pop = 5
I have also wiped Lighthause in Elephantine...

...score -60 :D:D:D

turn 9 (AD1184):
- pop uo in Moscov and Memphis
- University in:
Thebes -> Oxford University in 10 turns :)
Oh Drat -> prod. back on Monastery
Memphis -> Monastery
St Petersburg -> prod. back on Maceman
Moscov -> Missionary
Novgorod -> Lighthause
- Monastery in Yakutsk -> Missionary
- Lighthause in Yaroslav -> Library
- Lighthause in Elephantine -> Granary
- Confucionizm failed to spread in Gordium :\

turn 10(AD1190):
- our Caravel has killed HC caravel near his island
- Maceman in St Petersburg -> Missionary
- Longbowman in Rostov -> finish Maceman

Ok... my work is done. Guilds in 2 turns. Oxford in 8 turns. Galleys are hiden in Elephantine. Engeniring and Teology is available for trade.
Liberalism is still booked for us... Ghandi has Philosophy but hasn't Paper yet, and the others don't have Philosophy and Education.

I guess I'll have to load the saves and study where I went wrong with specialists. I didn't actually specifically assign any in my turns, I just left the previously assigned ones as they were. As for worker builds, I guess I'll live and learn from looking at the save and what you guys are advocating.

The Roster:
-- Kikinit
-- Rihiter -- Just Played
-- sooooo -- Up (for 10)
-- blid -- On Deck
-- mike p
-- ZerrorR
-- Ralph_Jackson (upcoming skip 26-30/June)

I think those specialists were assigned by the governors automatically. This is one thing I hate in civ 4. There is no way to tell governors don't hire a single specialist until I tell you so. Kikin, I hope you got no offense there. I know that MM is tedious but with only 10 turns, checking for AI :smoke:'in assignements and correcting them will help finish earlier

HC has a lot of coastal cities and has colossus. That is why he is so advanced technologically even after starting alone on a island

I guess a regular visit to diplo screen is mandatory to check when to begin liberlalism. We can even research it partially (leave only one turn or so) and switch when necessary.

I think we need to settle the island north of india. This is 10 easy land tiles to grab

blid, I did look and sometimes the specialists give good research and hammer bonuses. What looks alright to one person is another persons grievance I fear. I won't take any offense, I'll just try and work out how to do it better.

What is the point of delaying Liberalism? What more expensive tech than Astronomy are we hoping to get? And what is worth more to us stratregically anyway?

We've met all the AI's now so we need to do our first spoiler.

Any volunteers?

The reason not to finish Liberalism so fast is that we can wait with it, reserch Guilds -> Gunpowder -> Chemistry and then Liberalism to get Iron as a free tech. But I think that with HC actions ( sea expansion ) we need to get Astronomy fast. So we must reserch it after Guilds or we must reserch Liberalism and take it as a free tech. Main argument about reserching the Astromomy ( not getting it as a free tech ) is that we don't have Philosophy and we can wait until Ghandi will trade it.

OK. I see it quite clearly what we have to do now.

- Finish Guilds
- Check trades -> if Philosophy available, take it ( only Ghandi has it, give him Guilds for it and if he wants more, add Paper but ask him to add Drama or Teology. Try to trade with Ghandi and Cyrus rather then with others - we're planing to attack others soon so they must be technolog retarded ). When we'll have Philosophy change reserch to Liberalism and don't finish it, leave it with only 1 turn to the ending, and switch to other tech.
- Astronomy
- Check trades... like above
- Gunpowder
- Check trades... like above, and trade Engeniring from Roosvelt ( or somebody else if has it ). Give Education for it end ofcourse try to make this trade as good as it's possible. But watch out! If the person who will get Education from us will also have Philosophy, he will be able to start Liberalism.
- Chemistry
- finish Liberalism -> get Iron as a free tech

With current reserch output we will finish this plan in:
Guilds 2t ( ~700:science: left )
Astronomy 11t ( ~5000:science: )
Gunpowder 6t ( ~3000:science: )
Chemistry 10t ( ~4000:science: )
Liberalism 7t ( ~2600:science: ) = ~15300:science: total
We loss -65gp at 100% reserch rate and gain +233 at 0% reserch rate. So for every 2 turns at 0% we can go on reserch at 100% for 7 turns ( 466/65=7.1 )
After 8 turns we will build Oxford University and beakers output in the capitol will increase from 165 to 240 ( there will be also a great person with high ods that it will be a great scientist ). Our total geaker output is something about 530 so after the Oxford and some buildings in other cities ( some monasteries,ect... ) it will increase a bit. So I think that we can remove some turns from that count.
Counting...
15300/530=29 turns... + 29/7 = 29 + 4.14 = ~33 turns

Ofcourse if Liberalism will be not safe eny more we'll have to finish it a litle ealier ( or risk a little bit ). And if trades won't go like planed some additional turns might be needed.

During those 33 turns we must build some Longbowmens to exchange our troops in city garrisins.
We have 4 male units, 2 mounted units and 8 siege wepons. That should be enough to take HC out ( we will build some more cannons when Iron finished ). But we have to build some Longbows in addition for the garrison in conquered cities.
We also have to build some naval force. So after Astronomy we should build 2 more Galleons ( 2 we'll have from Galleys ) and after Chamistry we'll need 2 Frigats.

After reserching Iron we will turn our reserch to 0% and gather money for unit upgrades ( we can also do it ealier, but only if Liberalism will be still safe ).
After upgrading we attack. And during that we will build another army which will attack Saladin. The time has come. Now we must go straight millitary!!!

If everything will go right we'll finish the game in 100 or max 150 turns.

:D Now that's what I call a plan. 150 turns sounds good. We've got a lot of battling to do and I'm amazed with your statement that 4 melee units, 2 mounted units and 8 siege weapons is enough. I guess once they are upgraded that will be a formidable force and with longbows following along to garison in cities it should go well. Dr Judah can stay in the stack to help them heal faster.

Looking at your research plan, even if we miss liberalism it will only add a little bit of time to everything. Our core island has been built into a real powerhouse. Lots to learn from how that has been done. :goodjob:

At what stage are you planning on attacking? With cats or waiting all the way to steel?

At what stage are you planning on attacking? With cats or waiting all the way to steel?
If we attack with cats only, we will suffer to many losses. We would have to attack "with numbers", and it is better to wait a bit and attack "with quality" ;].

We've got a lot of battling to do and I'm amazed with your statement that 4 melee units, 2 mounted units and 8 siege weapons is enough.
Well HC has lately reserch Engeniring so his next steps might be Gunpowder -> Chemistry. That means he can have Grenadiers (12str) in garrison. But most likely he will still have Longbowmans. We will attack with Cannons, Macemans and Knights. Longbowman with 2 city def. upgrades can have something about +100% so he has 12 str. Cannon with 2 city raider upgrades has 12 +45% = >17 str! So we can divine our attack force to two groups each containing 2 Macemans, 4-5 Cannons, 1 Knight ( and we can also build and add 1 Pikeman to each ). Each group will go along the shore and capture cities. Captured cities will be garrisoned with Longbowmens/Grenadiers. Hc has only 9-10 cities so I think it will go quite fast.
If he has Grenadiers allready, we will have to go with numbers a little. Grenadier with 2 city def upgrades has 12 +45% = 17 str. So the first cannon which will attack ( the weakest one - new unit without any battle experience ) will have odd like 40-50%. And will die probobably. But after 3 or 4 first cities our units will be promoted to city rider 3 and with that it would be even easier.

About loosing Liberalism. I think that we won't loss it. To be sure be can just take Astronomy with it, and add 2-4 turns to the plan due with reserching Steel (6k:science:) insted of Astronomy (4k:science:).

One more thing. I have just noticed that we can wipe Oxford allready for -6 pop. Lets do this. All the money tiles will be still worked and we don't need production in Thebes ( with +220% bonus to reserch it could be wise to produce reserch there ). And beside that it will grow pretty quickly. Also if it's to big we will have problems with WW in the future.

And it will be the best to reserch Guilds -> Liberalism ( Philosophy first if there isn't a way to trad it ) -> get Astronomy as a free tech. Thanks to fast astronomy we will be able to get advantage on sea fast and destroy HC navy.

Hi everyone, I'm back from my trip to my parents. Looking forward to some civving tonight. So are we playing 10 turns now? Seems a little light for peacetime epic speed, but if that's what the team has decided then it's OK by me. I'll play tonight.

City production:
Thebes: wipe Oxford immediatly -> reserch until Astronomy is reserched -> Observatory
After wiping keep the money tiles worked, and move the rest of the workers to food for pop ups. After popups change some citizens to scientists ( for fast great person ). If great person is borned: save him.
Memphis: finish mansonary -> grocer -> Galleon
Change new citizens to merchants
Oh Drat: finish monastery -> longowman -> grocer
Heliopolis: finish forge -> lighthause
Rostov: finish maceman -> longbowman -> longbowman -> Galeon if possible
Yakutsk: finish missionary -> university
St petersburg: change to monastery -> missionary
Keep this city growing ( work food ).
Moscov: finish missionary -> missionary -> grocer
Yaroslav: finish library -> monastery
Novograd: finish lighthause -> monastery
Keep this city growing ( work food ).
Elephantine: continiue granary

Workers actions:
South part of the continent
- stop building cottages!!!
- drag irrigation to St Petersburg
- choop forest W of Moscov for grocer, build workshop there
- finish chooping jungle N of Yaroslav, build workshop there
- if any worker will has nothing to do near Moscov, build workshop on cottage 2N from the city
- finish farm near Novgoro, and make another farm SW ( on cottage ) after that choop forest then and build mine and windmill. Make road on hills.
North part of the continent
- finish mine N of Memphis, then build road on hill NW of Memphis ( fast connection for units ), then choop forest S of Mempnis and build watermill there
- finish mine N of Heliopolis, then build a watermill 2W of Memphis
- finish workshop near Oh Drat, then choop forest S of the city and build another workshop there
- choop forests near Yakutsk and build workshops there
- choop forest near Thebes for Observatory

Trades:
- after finishing Guilds trade it to Ghandi for Theology + Drama
- try to get Engeniring from Roosvelt for Guilds + something, Calendar for example ( but dont give too much ;] )

Reserch:
finish Guilds ( tech jump MIN ) -> Philosophy ( tech jump MAX ) -> Liberalism ( get Astronomy as a free tech ) -> Gunpowder
USE BINARY RESERCH

Goverment & Religion:
- Change to Selfdom after wiping the Oxford Universty ( and when possible due to the revolution delay )
- Change to Pacyfizm after Philosophy is reserched
Those two changes might be done together if you wait a little bit with selfdom.

Army:
- New built Longbowmans: move them to the cities on the east shore of our continent ( Heliopolis, Mempnis ), and units which are garrisined there send to exchange units from the south part of the continents ( cats, sword, chariats ). Longbows should be on the east shore bacause war is camming up, and HC is quite close to that shore.
- Caravel E of our continent: heal it, and then try to eleminate HC caravel ( use the help of Galleys if needed ). Don't attack, let him attack you!
- Caravel near Yaroslav: use it to trhow the missionaries over the pass to Cyrus, then explore "black territory" SE of our continent

Discuss:
Is there enything to discuss?

What does Tech Jump MIN and Tech Jump MAX mean?

Oh, and I thought we were going for steel from liberalism? Why did you change your mind?

What does Tech Jump MIN and Tech Jump MAX mean?

Oh, and I thought we were going for steel from liberalism? Why did you change your mind?
First reason: We need Galleons to eleminate HC navy right away
Second reason: It's higly probable that somebody will finish Liberalism before we get to Steel

TECH JUMP MAX: ( used when we want a max overflow due to the bonuses at tech which is currently reserched )
How it works: When there is only 1 turn left to finish tech, change reserch rate to the max rate which won't finish the tech ( so only few beakers will be left t reserch in the tech after this turn ). In the next turn change reserch rate to 100% to maximize the overflow.
TECH JUMP MIN ( used when we want to minimize the overflow due to the bonuses at tech which will be reserched next )
How it works: When there is only 1 turn left to finish tech, change reserch rate to the min rate which will alow us to finish current tech. And then change it back to 100% when starting new tech.

I hope that you will understand it, if not ask somebody before playing for further explanation.

I finished my turns. Most cities were managed to grow quickly while the workers build the workshops. When we have the desired military techs the citizens can be switched to working them. No point in discussing each build and worker action because I pretty much followed the Rihiter Plan. It's quicker to write the exceptions:

Novgorod built a barracks instead of a monastery.
Thebes did not build research. After the 6-pop whip, most citizens were working food/commerce improvements to grow it back to a high size. It would not have cut one turn off any tech, even if you added them all together. Instead it built a knight and started a grocer.
Moscow started a grocer because we had too many missionaries alive at the same time.

Tech: I followed the tech jumping plan. I did binary research too. Liberalism is 2 turns away.

Military: Moved our best troops to Memphis and Heliopolis. Moved archers and warriors to former Russia. Killed an incan caravel but lost a galley (built one in Rostov to replace it).

Government: We are now in serfdom and pacifism.

Diplomacy: Roosevelt DEMANDED 260 gold (or else!). I told him to go shove it.
Gandhi was bragging about his horse archer (scary!). I traded away Guilds to him and in return got a map, some gold and two needed military techs: Drama and Theology.
Cyrus is very backwards, bless his heart. He has few cities but is the second highest in pop. I spammed him with missionaries and eventually he converted to Confucianism for the cost of Literature (:lol:).
Roosevelt was pretty annoyed at us refusing his demand. I kept seeing what he wanted for Engineering. At one point he thought it would be a fair trade for Education, Calendar, Guilds and Drama. I thought that deal was less fair. Eventually he relaxed and gave Engineering, his WM and 10 gold for Philosophy and Drama.
Saladin hates us for our differing religions. What else is new?
Huanya Capac now loves us. He has forgotten about all those years of war. He gave us his excess techs and gold for free. However, I refused his sexual advances and recommend the next player does the same. The big weirdo.

Techs gained: Guilds, Philosophy, Engineering, Drama, Theology

No piccies because not a lot happened.

Good work.
Nice trades.
Well, it appears that HC is gay...

I'm wondering if any team has attacked and conquer Cyrus when they meet him. I'm curious how are they doing... ;] .

I have just read the First Spoiler Thread... the VQ
And if you would excuse me, I have a Golden Laurel to grab Very Quickly ...
Well, I wish him luck ;]

The Team One...
...they are doing quite well. But I think we can beat them.

Nice stuff sooooo. Good work on getting those techs out of everyone.

I guess I'll have to work up a draft for our spoiler. Seems everyone's a bit busy. :p Means someone else will have to do the final spoiler.


This is your Spoiler thread for mid-game discussions between teams on your progress so far.

To qualify to READ in this thread your team must know all the rivals in the game, or know of their demise.

......

To qualify to POST in this thread a nominated scribe from your team must post a summary of your game up to the point defined above.

Your summary should include your early decisions on city placement, research, units and improvements, and the milestones in the development of your economy, civics, contacts and diplomatic relationships.

When posting, please do not discuss future events beyond the date you met the spoiler condition. And remember that your viewing public will be looking out for literary flair, historical accuracy, humour, and strategic insight. Comments on the SGOTM experience so far will also be welcome.

So, how was it for you? Still alive and kicking?

The Roster:
-- Kikinit
-- Rihiter
-- sooooo -- Just Played
-- blid -- Up (for 10)
-- mike p -- On Deck
-- ZerrorR
-- Ralph_Jackson (upcoming skip 26-30/June)

A Team is Born

Our team consists of veterans from the KK series of SG's, Mike p, Ralph_Jackson, sooooo, blid and Kikinit with the addition of 2 strays :D, Rihiter and ZerrorR. After a quick discussion on team names, Team Fistful of Dynamite was born and was primed to explode [pissed] . The team has come together very well and are all enjoying the experience of discussing the options available to us and each member trying their utmost to carry out the plan to the best of their ability.

A Civilisation is Born

We started with discussion of where to settle our first city. In a team building unanimous decision, 1SW of the settler's starting position was chosen due to the merits of the additional hammer in the city from the start and using the floodplains to provide food for all the mines. It also had access to the cows for health. In the year 3970BC, Thebes was settled. Moving to the hill had also revealed some stone and more food and health in the form of rice. The choice of capital looked to be extremely promising. First build for those who like to know this sort of thing was a worker as he would be essential to us getting a fast start with mines and cottages.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/Civ4ScreenShot0032.jpg
Photo of Thebes on it's year of founding 3970BC

At this point, we were debating what techs to research and in what order. It was decided that Hunting should be first to get scouts and allow exploring to see if we could get some lucky huts and then onto Animal Husbandry for the cows and to reveal the horses for our UU. Initial exploration showed that all huts had been removed and initial impressions were that we may have been isolated on an island.

The general area was looking promising and would provide a solid foundation for our future empire.

The Early Years

A bit more discussion took place about the tech path and finally Pottery was selected to allow us to get some early cottages on the floodplains between the capital and a future city to the East. The location of the Eastern city is shown in the first pic. The cottages were to be put on the FP's common between the capital and this future city to allow them to be worked even when the capital switched to production mode. This would allow the cottages to mature that little bit earlier and give us a boost in our tech research pace.

There was a bit of talk back and forth about where to put the second city. Those who deemed research to be the most important aspect advocated the city to the East whilst those who wanted early war and to see our War Chariots rolling over our enemies quickly advocated the North.

Next research was Mining to allow us to build some mines. An Oracle slingshot was also put on the drawing board here for discussion. The plan called for the Oracle to be followed by a shot at the pyramids and onto the Great Library eventually.

In 3280BC, we finally met Catherine and so found that we weren't on an island by ourselves.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/3280BCmeetCatarina.jpg
Vivacious Catherine getting petulant and a suitable response

A dot map was made and put up for discussion and the game held up until all the team could discuss the merits and choose a path of action. A number of these cities had there positions varied later with more thought and also due to the fact that Cathy didn't seem to get the email showing her where to build. She will be made to pay for ignoring that.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/InitialDotMap.jpg
Initial Dot-Map discussion

Eventually in what was to become common for the rest of the game (so far), Rihiter succesfully argued his strategy and the city to the East was to be founded and we would stick for two cities while we pulled off our Oracle-Pyramids strategy. Memphis was eventually founded in 2530BC.

Catherine in the meantime was not sleeping and was expanding towards us. Nice of her to go and develop cities for us isn't it? While we concentrated on getting up the tech tree quickly, she went and founded all our cities and started developing the countryside. We however only built enough warriors to unfog the land to prevent barbarians and left it at that.

In Search of a God

Our chosen tech path was to go Mysticism, Meditation with a diversion half-way through to finish Masonry. Once masonry was finished the Pyramids were started and Priesthood was selected next. Immediately upon finishing Priesthood, the pyramids were put on hold and the Oracle was started together with research of Writing. The aim of course is a mini-Oracle slingshot of Code of Laws. The Civil Service slingshot being deemed too risky for a monarch level game.

Writing was finished quite fast and then Bronze Working was selected. The Oracle race was won in 1210BC and Code of Laws selected as the free tech. Confucianism was founded in Memphis which suited us fine as this would be a cottage rich city and we converted immediately. The missionary was sent to Moscow to convert it and give us recon on the Russian Capital.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM1/1210BCOracleCompleted.jpg
Would you like a free tech with your burger Sir?

In 1000BC, our plan had a hitch as we missed the Pyramids by a few turns. But the best laid plans have contingencies so we had anticipated it and swiftly swung onto our main path of destruction of Cathy. Missin