View Full Version : SGOTM 01 - Peanut


Pages : 1 [2] 3

Phabuk
Jun 07, 2006, 04:14 PM
ok i got the save.
good job mailman! we can now turn our eyes to the cyrus empire and make our people prosperous...

I will play the 11 turns in about 24 hours so please don't hesitate to give me your suggestions. I will already take into account Davidjes remarks.

My policy is to enhance production and trade to be strong enough for a good research level, to prepare a future invasion of cyrus.

concerning the galley, i'll go south and explore the unknown part of the cyrus coast.

we also should found a city, west of moscow, near horses and rice, with the new settler...

DaviddesJ
Jun 07, 2006, 04:43 PM
we also should found a city, west of moscow, near horses and rice, with the new settler...

Perhaps before that we should build a city near our iron deposit (either 1E of the iron, or 1E 1S), which can connect up iron for us, plus work the iron mine, rice farm, and eventually sugar plantation. This will be a strong production city.

By the way, I think the workers near Alexandria are wasting their time. We can chop down those forests, but why? The city will never do much, even with granary and lighthouse (and how long would it take to build all that?). Better to send them somewhere else where we need them more.

DaviddesJ
Jun 07, 2006, 05:43 PM
P.S. To elaborate on Alexandria, even if we had a Lighthouse right now, I'd still argue that we should work the silver (and not grow) rather than the coast. Five commerce in hand beats two now and the potential for more later.

Eventually we could come back and chop those forests, but we might as well wait until after Mathematics. If we have a Lighthouse and a Granary, eventually, then I could be swayed in favor of working the coast. The way to get there is to accumulate hammers by working the silver mine, and to save the forests until we have Math.

Meanwhile, improving other tiles (e.g., the rice farm near Thebes, a mine near Elephantine, maybe more cottages near Memphis, clearing jungles all around) look more important.

P.S. Also, shouldn't we be converting the farm near Thebes to a cottage? That looks much more useful than the farm NW of Heliopolis, which won't be needed for a long time. Eventually, I guess Heliopolis will be our GP center (unless we capture Cyrus's capital first), and we may want farms all around it. But it's quite a while before those will be needed.

DaviddesJ
Jun 07, 2006, 07:07 PM
My policy is to enhance production and trade to be strong enough for a good research level, to prepare a future invasion of cyrus.

I don't think we need much research to invade Cyrus. I think we should expect that we're going to roll over him with a big pile of swordsmen, and a sufficient number of galleys to get our troops there. Our research isn't so great (because of our high maintenance costs, which will only go higher), but our production is certainly unmatched by Cyrus and when you combine that with more intelligent battle tactics, we should be able to completely chew him up with swordsmen and axemen and our existing WC force. St Petersburg might build nothing but galleys (except perhaps a Lighthouse), as we'll want several of them both to transfer our forces over, and for rapid coastal redeployment. I think we should seriously consider hitting Persepolis in the initial wave of attacks---it's easy to attack from the sea, not on a hill, etc.

It would be great if we can get India to join us in the war. I don't have a lot of experience with diplomatic manipulation (it's not usually the part of the game that interests me the most), but here I think we should be thinking in terms of making India our really, really good friend (conveniently, we can convert to Judaism) and getting him to war to distract Cyrus. But is Gandhi too peaceful to be persuaded in this way?

Of course, massive further expansion through conquest will slow our research even further, in the short term. Yet, if we remain friendly with Gandhi, we can keep up through trading, and eventually we'll be a superpower so that we can quickly rule the world once we do get Astronomy.

concerning the galley, i'll go south and explore the unknown part of the cyrus coast.

My guess is that our initial workboat will finish circumnavigating the Cyrus/Gandhi continent soon, and that other lands won't be reachable without Optics. But that's just a guess.

If we find a way to make further contacts, then that's even a stronger argument for attacking Cyrus sooner rather than later. (The more people we have to trade with, the less we mind slowing our own research somewhat.)

We should pay close attention to all of the places where it might be possible to cross to a new continent. E.g., the tile 6W of Elephantine could theoretically be Coast. Also, the tiles 5S 3W of Madras, and 7S 1W of Madras, are worth revisiting at some point. (But, let's definitely finish the current circumnavigation first.)

ainwood
Jun 07, 2006, 07:49 PM
But is Gandhi too peaceful to be persuaded in this way?
Not necessarily. If cyrus & gandhi are different religions, there will be tension. Cyrus is fairly aggressive - so they may not like each other much (although a check on the diplo screen should confirm this). As such, we may be able to either get him to join us in a war on cyrus, or, if that's not possible, he may be convinced to dog-pile once we take a city or two (although, that's a bit late...)

DaviddesJ
Jun 07, 2006, 08:16 PM
Not necessarily. If cyrus & gandhi are different religions, there will be tension. Cyrus is fairly aggressive - so they may not like each other much (although a check on the diplo screen should confirm this).

That's true. Gandhi is currently cautious toward Cyrus (+1 for peaceful relations, -3 for different religions).

As such, we may be able to either get him to join us in a war on cyrus, or, if that's not possible, he may be convinced to dog-pile once we take a city or two (although, that's a bit late...)

I think that's not necessarily too late. Suppose we attack from the sea and grab two cities quickly (Persepolis and the one farther north, just inland from copper). Then we convince Gandhi to declare war. This could serve the main purpose, of drawing Cyrus away from harassing us further, and perhaps getting him to make peace with us down the road. We probably aren't going to have enough forces to completely roll over all of his cities without pausing, we're going to want to eat him up in two gulps, like Catherine.

I haven't attempted to draw up an actual production schedule, but I imagine we could do this in as few as 30-40 turns from now. Build up several galleys, transport our WCs over to the new continent and explore it all (using open borders to our advantage), then park them just outside his territory and declare war while landing stacks of swordsmen and axemen to make war along with the WCs. If we only need enough troops to grab two target cities, this won't be that hard to do.

DaviddesJ
Jun 07, 2006, 08:23 PM
concerning the galley, i'll go south and explore the unknown part of the cyrus coast.

P.S. Don't forget to transport some WCs to the new world. You can use them to explore all the interior, while the ships check out the coastal areas and look for new lands. On the other hand, limit the number somewhat, so we don't pay unnecessary unit support costs. (We get free supply for 4 units outside our borders.) Growing our city population as much as possible will also help with unit support costs, if we keep building our armies. (This is the main reason I started building axemen instead of WCs; dollar for dollar, the WCs are probably better, but they also cost more to maintain, which adds up while we're not at war. Similarly, when we hook up iron we should build primarily swordsmen, for the same reason.)

P.P.S. Unit maintenance formulas are here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141475

civ_steve
Jun 08, 2006, 12:09 AM
There's a lot to digest right now, and it's been a long day ... so I'll put that off for now! I did have one question - MailMan said that he couldn't declare on India. I'm assuming this means we are in locked peace with India. One thing that occurs to me is that this will make Domination much more difficult if there's an entire race whose cities we can't capture! Especially if Gandhi occupies a significant chunk of real estate. Perhaps a strategy (once we know where everyone else is and their status) is to use Gandhi as front line troops, let him get beat about and lose cities to our enemies, then swoop in to capture them ourselves. Hope this makes sense, and this is future stuff to think about, rather then something to take action on immediately.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 12:28 AM
I don't think it's going to be hard to achieve Domination without being able to fight Gandhi. He's got 11% of the land area now, he's likely to get up to 20% or so by taking his half of the continent and some of Cyrus's land, but he's not going to go much higher. When we overrun Huayna Capac we'll be able to get effectively 80%; it will just take a while.

Since Permanent Alliances are enabled, we can also form a PA with Gandhi to achieve domination. But my goal is really to win before Communism/Fascism.

Realistically, it looks like Huayna Capac was given a huge head start (a big land mass to himself, and a bunch of huts?), so winning the game essentially comes down to conquering him.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 12:31 AM
By the way, my plan to attack Cyrus from the sea works better if we maintain Open Borders with him (in order for our galleys to be able to position themselve s offshore from his cities we want to attack, they will have to move through some of his territory. So we should think carefully before doing anything to upset him (e.g., adopting Judaism as our religion). On the other hand, I agree with MailMan that if Gandhi asks us to convert to Judaism (or for almost anything else, within reason) we should agree to it, as it's more important to maximize his happiness with us.

MailMan
Jun 08, 2006, 01:24 AM
You didn't switch the citizen in Alexandria to work the silver mine! We should do this asap.
By the way, I think the workers near Alexandria are wasting their time. We can chop down those forests, but why? The city will never do much, even with granary and lighthouse (and how long would it take to build all that?). Better to send them somewhere else where we need them more.
the silver tile do not produce any food, therefore I think it is better to work the sea tiles. I think the chops should finish the lighthouse, after that the city will only work the sea tiles and produce some commerce. once in a while it can rush a building. I think this is a very bad city location that generally heart us, but it need the lighthouse in order to be somewhat productive.


> Cyrus offered only myst for IW. it means that he is very close to researching it himself.
Are you sure? Maybe he just doesn't like us much (we declined to give him Alphabet, etc.).
I believe this is the case. even if it was not the case, I still think I managed to get the best out of IW.

it looks like Huayna Capac was given a huge head start
I am not sure that the land he got is bigger, it must be better due to his research speed, but his score is lower than Gandhi's

future plans:
I think we should wait for catapults to show up before taking down Cyrus, he is creative and therefore will have high city defense value. we need to improve our land. we will not be able to hold his cities due to high city maintenance
I originally thought of the galley to go to the next island and settle it.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 02:02 AM
the silver tile do not produce any food, therefore I think it is better to work the sea tiles. I think the chops should finish the lighthouse, after that the city will only work the sea tiles and produce some commerce. once in a while it can rush a building. I think this is a very bad city location that generally heart us, but it need the lighthouse in order to be somewhat productive.

There's no reason for the city to be productive. The purpose of Alexandria is that it gives +1 happiness to all of our other cities, which is worth a lot (i.e., it's a 10% boost or so, across the board). If it works the silver, then it generates 8 commerce every turn (1 from city center, 5 from silver mine, 2 from trade route), which (more than) offsets its cost to our empire.

Working coastal tiles instead of the silver mine does make the city hurt us, because now it's not producing enough commerce to pay for itself. Eventually, with a lighthouse, Alexandria will generate more commerce by working 3 coast tiles than it would by working 1 silver mine, but that's a long time off, and the value of 1 commerce now is much more than the value of 1 commerce 50 turns from now. Plus we've lost the other work that those workers could have done.

At 1 hammer/turn, we're 22 turns away from finishing a lighthouse, even with both forests chopped. And then it's another 90 turns (!) to get a granary. The other advantage of working the silver mine is that we get the buildings much faster, and then we can grow more efficiently.

I think we should wait for catapults to show up before taking down Cyrus, he is creative and therefore will have high city defense value.

It's not that hard to take cities. We did it with just WCs. A WC and a sworsdman will easily take out an archer, at the cost of the WC, even in a 60% defence city (and his capital is the only one of those he's likely to have). We can spare a bunch of WCs. He's likely to have 4 or 5 archers defending his capital, and maybe a spearman or axeman---nothing we can't overcome with a big stack. Our production is 2x Cyrus's already, and that difference is likely to increase.

Capturing faraway cities does cost us some additional maintenance; however, it's not that hard to get them to pay for themselves relatively quickly. And we do get a reward in gold for capturing each one. And the cities give us access to more resources (e.g., we might get access to marble), and make it easier to expand further later on. The tradeoff is that war slows our research somewhat in the short term, but accelerates our growth and productivity in the long term.

If the consensus is to wait for catapults before we attack, that's certainly ok too. As long as we don't wait long enough for him to get crossbowmen or longbowmen. (And, hopefully, he doesn't have ivory.) In that case, we should be still building up an attack force, so that, when we do get construction, we can quickly pump out a handful of catapults, and ship them off, and attack. The danger is that he's got better units because we delay, which is much more of a problem than the +60% defense (and that's only his capital, the rest should have 40% at best). The +60% defense only boosts his archers from 4.5 to 6.3. Stronger defenders are worth more than that.

The other downside of delay is that it slows the process of building up the productivity of the captured cities.

MailMan
Jun 08, 2006, 02:11 AM
If we do not want to wait for cats, we should plan how to leave Cyrus without copper and iron.
we should scout the land and see if it is easy or not first. I do not want to face spears and axes without cats.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 02:17 AM
I certainly agree on scouting; my plan would never include declaring war on Cyrus unless we can actually see what's in the target cities and we know we can take them easily with what we have right there.

The foreign advisor tells us that Cyrus doesn't have copper hooked up yet, but we've seen it in his borders, so he certainly will connect it. It would be good to know how many other sources he has: the coastal city with copper would be one of our first targets, and we should certainly arrange to cut off any other sources.

In my experience, the AI doesn't build many axemen for defense, and spearmen are no worse than archers (if we don't attack them with WCs).

ainwood
Jun 08, 2006, 03:04 AM
I don't think we should wait for cats - in fact, I'd advocate ignoring that half of the tech tree and going for civil service and machinery so that we can get maces & courthouses. Maybe grab (say) currency - but ideally if we can research to macemen & let gandhi fill-in some gaps, then that would work.

MailMan
Jun 08, 2006, 03:16 AM
IIRC - India is missing copper as well. we will soon have extra copper near Novgorod. we can sell/gift it to them.
This will make them stronger and will boost our relations (you supplied us with resources bonus).

Edit: we may also use the copper as payment to trigger war

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 03:22 AM
India probably has copper somewhere but just hasn't hooked it up yet. The idea of just giving it to him is an interesting one. If we give him copper for free, can we later cancel the deal, or do we pay a relationship penalty for that? Helping him build better units which will make him more effective against Cyrus is probably a plus. Is there a potential downside in that if he builds more units then Cyrus may feel threatened and build more units which will make him harder for us to attack?

Another alternative is to give India our extra fish. We know he has access to fish and will hook it up eventually, so it probably doesn't have any long-term trade value, so maybe that's a reason to give it now.

One danger of giving copper to India is that, if he hooks up his own copper, he might then trade copper to Cyrus. It still seems like an interesting idea, though.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 03:47 AM
We should also start formulating a Great People strategy soon. Realistically, our only source of GPP in the short term is libraries (maybe Great Lighthouse in the medium term), so we're going to have Great Scientists, who will just give us Compass. That isn't very useful by itself, but we can always put an academy in Thebes. Or maybe we can trade Compass for something more useful, like Calendar or Code of Laws.

Phabuk
Jun 08, 2006, 08:39 AM
By the way, my plan to attack Cyrus from the sea works better if we maintain Open Borders with him

I am not sure it is very important because you must cancel any open borders deals before declaring war, and then your galleys are repelled outside your ennemy borders.

The invasion will not take place before 3 or 4 turnsets so we have time to found a city on the west coast (more convenient to built invasion galleys), i will build another settler.

I think it is not useful to wait for cats for the war. I agree on scouting with WCs...

MailMan
Jun 08, 2006, 08:47 AM
If we give him copper for free, can we later cancel the deal, or do we pay a relationship penalty for that?
we can cancel it freely after 10 turns. I think that the relationship bonus takes longer to accumulate.

Another alternative is to give India our extra fish. We know he has access to fish and will hook it up eventually, so it probably doesn't have any long-term trade value, so maybe that's a reason to give it now.
we are already +4 on trades (the maximum) due to the trade on the first contact. I do not think that giving him fish will change anything.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 12:50 PM
I am not sure it is very important because you must cancel any open borders deals before declaring war, and then your galleys are repelled outside your ennemy borders.

But we can move the galleys to near his capital, unload the troops, and then the troops will relocate to a nearby land space outside his borders. Or we can move the galleys near his capital, leave the troops onboard, and then the galleys will be moved away from his capital, but only by a few spaces.

If we don't have open borders, we won't be able to get our galleys anywhere near his capital, because we can't sail through the coast around his other cities (until we declare war).

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 02:21 PM
The invasion will not take place before 3 or 4 turnsets so we have time to found a city on the west coast (more convenient to built invasion galleys), i will build another settler.

Perhaps we should have gone with MailMan's suggestion of razing St Petersburg and rebuilding it at the "neck" of the continent. That sure would be more convenient now. On the other hand, our exploration would have been significantly delayed. Water under the bridge at this point.

Building a city on the west coast makes sense. Another good plan would be to found a city on the other continent, on top of the incense, if we can bring our galley around and ferry a settler there before Gandhi or Cyrus expands that far. This will be a decent city because it can work cows and clams. We can then also use it as a base for our military excursions (always good to have a territory within our own cultural borders).

But it seems not easy to build more settlers right now. Most of our cities (e.g., Moscow) would like to grow some, first. Memphis could finish the barracks and then start a settler.

It would be really nice to get the Great Lighthouse since we are going to have a whole lot of coastal cities and that would really help with the costs.

By the way, another reason to attack Persepolis is that it's the holy city for Hinduism and Buddhism. If we're really lucky, we can arrange the timing so that Cyrus builds a shrine for us, and then we capture it.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 02:23 PM
we can cancel it freely after 10 turns. I think that the relationship bonus takes longer to accumulate.

If canceling the gift of copper doesn't leave us any worse off than before, I'm in favor of giving copper to Gandhi once we connect our second source.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 04:56 PM
I think this is a very bad city location that generally heart us, but it need the lighthouse in order to be somewhat productive.

By the way, I thought about putting Alexandria one space further south, so that it could work the horses and get some more production. But that still woudn't give it much growth (since the 2f from the horse tile only feeds the citizen on that tile) so I thought it was not worth anything, that the horses are much more valuable to Memphis, and the best thing for Alexandria is to just let it be size 1 forever (or at least for a long time---if it can build lighthouse and granary with the organic production from the silver mine, then that might be a good time to shift to growth).

(I'm not sure if you're saying that you think we shouldn't have connected the silver at all, or if you think a city farther south that could take the horse tile away from Memphis would have been better. If I could have reached a cow tile, or any other tile with more than 2 food, I would have done that---but it wasn't an option.)

Phabuk
Jun 08, 2006, 06:27 PM
the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC0400_01.Civ4SavedGame
***
550 BC:
galley finished --> galley
galley moves to west coast
worker chop in alexandria the other go south to help
chop finished near novgorod
Wc in novgorod wait for the galley
give fish to gandhi

535 BC:
barb near iron
worker finished farm in moscow, goes to help on jewels
WC from moscow toward galley (in order to scout)
switch library to granary in novgorod
poprush barracks in memphis --> settler
poprush galley in st peter --> galley
wc in st peter promote to combat 2, heal
wc in thebae promote to combat 1, send to barb
wc in memphis send to sw

520 BC:
novgorod borders extend
poprush settler in thebae --> axeman

505 BC:
moscow borders extend
kill the barb warrior
send the settler to found a city near iron
WC from novgorod in galley
mine finished on jewels, go to the next one
mine finished near memphis

490 BC:
WC up to combat 2 and stay to protect new city
our trade relations with gandhi were +2 and are now +3, perhaps i will exchange some jewels

475 BC :
moscow finish axeman --> worker
axeman to combat 1
elephantine finish library --> lighthouse
christianism is founded somewhere!

460 BC:
galley in st peter --> galley
chop finished in alexandria, go for mining
Pi-Ramses founded near iron --> axeman
poprush lighthouse in elephantine --> Great Lighthouse (35 turns)
we have now 3 jewels, give one to gandhi, our trade relation are up to +4
research to 100% (-55GPT/metallurgy in 9 turns)

445 BC:
hindouism is spreading in our empire (Memphis)... I didn't convert to.
send on worker from st peter to road copper in nov
chop finished in nov --> road on copper
send another one to iron
the last one chop the jungle on the hill

430 BC:
cyrus seems to have found a city on incense
nothing much

415 BC:
axeman in thebae --> worker
settler in memphis -->axeman
send the settler toward SW to found near rice and horses
axeman combat 1

400 BC:
St peter border extend
research back to 0%
we have road the second copper
WCs unload near arbela (only one archer in!)
we cannot exchange copper with gandhi, he 's got one probably (?)

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 06:58 PM
Hmm, things are going pretty well, but I have several comments, as usual. I really dislike the location of Pi-Rameses; putting it where we could work the rice, and grow faster, would be much better. I also don't agree with building an (unpromoted) axeman. It really needs a granary, so it can grow to a useful size quickly. The road 2N of Pi-Rameses is nearly useless; we don't need to connect it by road because it's already connected by sea.

At Elephantine, a mine should be a very high priority, if we're trying to get Great Lighthouse. Meanwhile, we're working a plains hill that just gives 2 hammers. Certainly moving that citizen to the plains forest (1 food, 2 hammers) would be better!

Something went wrong with the timing in Thebes because we now have an unhappy citizen draining 2 food/turn. The cost of this is greater than the benefit we got from poprushing. (Note: you could have used the "Avoid Growth" button to prevent this unhappy citizen from being produced---or just move a citizen off a food producing tile.)

We should make a priority to chop the jungles on sugar tiles near Pi-Rameses and Novgorod; these are good tiles to work, even without plantations. (If we have extra workers, we can even put cottages on them, and then replace those later when we get Calendar.)

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 07:12 PM
430 BC:
cyrus seems to have found a city on incense

Unfortunately (typical AI) he put the city in a poor location near the incense. When we attack Cyrus, we should probably raze this one, and rebuild on top of the incense (gaining access to cows and clams).

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 07:18 PM
It's going to take a while, but I think we should have our workboat reverse course and go back and check the places we skipped where there might be a coastal connection from the Gandhi/Cyrus continent, to another continent. I see 3 of these (i.e., places where a coast tile is adjacent to a black/undiscovered tile).

We can send one of our galleys north along our own coast to check out the possible connections in the area north of St Petersburg (2 of those).

Since the map is hand-constructed, I'm more suspicious than I would be otherwise, so we should check carefully. Finding a connection to more players to trade with would be a big advantage.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 08:48 PM
Another comment---there are two WCs west of Moscow that are costing us 1 gold/turn just because they are sitting outside our borders. Moving them back inside our cultural borders would save 1 gold/turn, with nothing lost as far as I can see.

DaviddesJ
Jun 08, 2006, 10:16 PM
Civ_steve is next, right? With Keith out, should we try to repeat the order from the last cycle? I.e.,

civ_steve
ainwood
PaulK
DaviddesJ
MailMan
Phabuk

civ_steve
Jun 09, 2006, 01:23 AM
Yes, I'm up and I've 'got-it'.

Everyone's had 2 turns at the helm, so either order is fine. We can work to the most recent turn sequence and rearrange if someone needs to swap or delay their turn.

I'll post some more coherent questions tomorrow, and plan to play tomorrow night.

I'd just as soon save 2 gpt if possible, so the WC move (and occasionally checking the Finance Advisor) looks like a good one. Also, scouting for additional land masses - more contacts.

More questions or statements tomorrow.

DaviddesJ
Jun 09, 2006, 01:51 AM
I'd just as soon save 2 gpt if possible, so the WC move (and occasionally checking the Finance Advisor) looks like a good one.

Just to clarify, I think it's 1 gpt for the 2 WCs: the unit supply cost is 1 gpt per 2 units outside your borders (above the 4 free units).

civ_steve
Jun 09, 2006, 09:41 AM
OK, 1 gpt saved.

I've looked at the save and have a better understanding of our status. I need some clarification on our research goals for now; it seems that Mathmatics (more shields from Forest chops, Aquaduct) and MetalCasting (forge) are the options; Mathmatics can get us to Civil Service and Macemen; MetalCasting to Guilds and Knights. I'm inclined to go for MetalCasting and see if we can trade for Math along the way.

Near term - develop our cities, prepare for a WC/Swords assault on Cyrus, scout the India/Persia continent and see if there are more lands to reach.

Regarding GPP, Academy in Thebes should be useful; if we have reasonably easy access to other lands, this might not be a major thrust of our game.

I notice that we were paired with Catherine, and India is paired with Cyrus. I expect one more continent, HC paired with another civ.

Anything else?

DaviddesJ
Jun 09, 2006, 11:50 AM
Since we're halfway to Metal Casting (Phabuk turned our research rate up for a while, then back down), we have no real choice at this point but to continue toward that goal.

Gandhi has Mathematics, at some point he will be willing to trade it to us.

Note there are 7 total civs, I believe. Two on our continent, two on the Cyrus/Gandhi continent, and three more undiscovered (including Huayna Capac).

Unless we have some reason not to do so, we should, relatively soon, assign two scientists somewhere, so we can at least get our first GP and either use it for an academy or for research. It doesn't have to be in our "ultimate GP city"; we can always shift to a different GP city later. Heliopolis is the best GP city location, but it doesn't have a library (and won't for some time).

BTW, Memphis should be working a floodplain for growth and income, not the mine.

civ_steve
Jun 09, 2006, 02:45 PM
Metal Casting it is. The F8 screen (I think its F8) showed 5 Rivals to eliminate for Conquest, but that might have been existing rivals.

I've taken note to review the cities for good use of terrain.

Still at work, so sometime tonight I should be able to play.

BTW, I noticed yesterday that we were leading the Spam count with 2.08 posts per turn played! :) Some players contend that high Spam count is an indication of superior play. :lol: I don't fall in that camp ... but it is a sign that the team is performing a lot of discussion, which is a good thing.

civ_steve
Jun 10, 2006, 05:03 AM
Turns are finished -

Turn 0 - 400 BC
Switch Memphis around to work 2 more Floodplains - Axe is delayed for more Commerce
Thebes - switch from Farm to cottaged Floodplains, Worker still in 6
Elephantine - move from Plains Hill to Plains Forest
Switch PI-Ramses to Granary
Sci at 40% - MetCast in 13 turns
Most cities have pop-rushed recently
Move Settler SW towards Moscow area - make available for push into Persia

Turn 1 - 385 BC
Moscow completes Worker --> Axeman
Workers are Cottaging near Moscow and Memphis, roading to Novgorod and Iron near PiRamses
Scouting with Workboat and 1 Galley (and 2 WC's) is on-going

Turn 2 - 370 BC
Adjust Heliopolis for no growth (would cause Unhappy citizen)

Turn 3 - 355 BC
Heliopolis finishes Lighthouse --> Worker
Iron is connected - Switch Moscow to Swords
2 more turns for Axe in Memphis, so let it finish then go to Sword

Costs have increase 6 gpt over the last few turns - mostly in Civic Upkeep, and some City Maintenance
Adjust Sci to 30% - +2 gpt and 14 for MetCast

Turn 4 - 340 BC
Moses is born far away

St Pete's finishes Galley --> Barracks
Novgorod finishes Granary --> Galley
Interesting - our Galley can enter Ocean, if it's within Gandhi's cultural radius (or anyone elses, I suppose)

HC knows Metal Casting
Workers start chopping Jungles near Nov and PiRam

(IBT Gandhi asks for Alphabet - we say no)

Turn 5 - 325 BC
Mahavira has been born in a far away land!

Gandhi completes Great Lighthouse (we still had 18 turns to go!)
Pop rush Sword in Moscow

Turn 6 - 310 BC
We get 104 gold from Great Lighthouse build, research to 50%
Thebes completes Worker, starts on Sword
Put 2 Citizens of Thebes into the Labs as Scientists

Cyrus has Iron 2 spaces North of Persepolis; a Worker is roading the space, a mine can't be far behind!
Cyrus has 2 Archers in Pasargadae, 2 Archers (now) in Arbela and 3 Archers in Persepolis

Gandhi completes Temple of Solomon

Turn 7 - 295 BC
Tarsus has been founded on Coast between Persep and Susa - 1 Archer defending
Attack Units are being loaded
Alexandria finishes its Lighthouse, and starts Working Coast spaces

Turn 8 - 280 BC
Worker is Mining Cyrus' Copper

Turn 9 - 400 BC
Advance units towards Persia coast

Turn 10 - 400 BC
Jungle cleared near PiRamses - start on Cottage
Finish Cottage on cleared Jungle near Nov - move towards hills for Mining

end of log

Cyrus's Eastern holdings have been scouted - he has 5 cities, and nothing but Archers present. 3 Archers in Persepolis, with no promotions. He is working Iron and Copper, but they aren't mined and connected yet.

We still have 2 WC's scouting around - I've been positioning them for expulsion. 3 Galleys are along the Persian coast - containing 3 WCs, 2 Axes and a Sword. We certainly can start operations against Persia - where is a good question. The 6 units plus a 7th (southernmost scout WC) should take Persepolis; perhaps this force can then go up the coast while additional units (as built and brought over) can start at Arbela, raze it to build on Incense, then go down the coast. This would definitely prevent him from getting any use of his Iron. The Northernmost WC can probably prevent the Copper from being connected.

We are 2 turns away from Learning Metal Casting. Thebes is accumulating GPP for now.

Over to you, ainwood!

250 BC Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC0250_01.Civ4SavedGame)

DaviddesJ
Jun 10, 2006, 02:26 PM
I'm away from home, and I forgot to bring my Civ4 disk with me, so I won't be able to look at the save for another 30 hours or so.

I think we should have given Gandhi Alphabet when he asked for it?

civ_steve
Jun 10, 2006, 05:22 PM
I didn't see a negative diplomatic effect for denying him his request. Also, since we're in locked peace mode with him, I'm not sure how that interacts with typical diplomatic effects. If we're going to give it to him, I'd just as soon trade it, perferably for Math, but that is still not an option.

Alternatively, we're about to learn Metal Casting. In my (limited) experience, giving Techs to an AI may sometimes open the door to trade Techs that are currently non-tradeable. If we gave Alphabet to the Indians, and traded it to Cyrus for the 2 Techs he'll trade with us (make the Trade first, just before declaring War), that might please Gandhi enough that Mathmatics will be available for trade once we learn Metal Casting.

As far as India goes, I think the trick here is not to let them capture too much land. They're up to 15% of available land. I don't think we want them to be involved with the war against Cyrus - we want to control that land, not the Indians. We may also want to see if we can ship Settlers over to any open territory and try to take it before Gandhi does. And at some point we may want to take territory culturally away from India; if so we'll eventually want Drama.

DaviddesJ
Jun 10, 2006, 05:55 PM
How fast can we realistically get to Communism? It's not all that far past Astronomy. One approach to fastest victory is to try to form Permanent Alliance with Gandhi. In that case we don't really care how big he gets, as long as he likes us enough.

I'm (pleasantly) surprised if we didn't get the -2 penalty for "You refused to help us." I think, however we proceed, keeping Gandhi as happy as possible with us is important (whether it's for forming permanent alliance, or getting him to join wars, or give or trade technologies to us), so my instinct is to say yes if he makes a demand. If we gave him Alphabet, we'd still have Metal Casting (soon) to trade for Mathematics.

I haven't really ever played the diplo game though (and never with permanent alliances enabled).

civ_steve
Jun 11, 2006, 03:57 AM
What does Permanent Alliance do? Are we talking about switching to a diplo victory? We'd still need to research to Fission in that case. We need a lot more Cottages!

I'm fairly confident that gifting Alphabet will gain us a Math for Metal Casting trade (not 100% but fairly certain).

MailMan
Jun 11, 2006, 04:22 AM
permanent alliance affects the game play in several levels:

- sharing the victory conditions:
both our lands will count for domination
both out population will count for diplo win
the top 3 cities of both our empires will count to cultural (if it was relevant)
we share score, space ship parts and we do not have to kill each other to win conquest.

- research:
we share our technologies
we can either research the same thing together, or two thing apart
we can ask him what to research
I believe that the research cost is increased to balance this.

- we fight wars together
we can ask him to attack specific targets.

- we also share some other stuff
wonders effects
visibility
he will give us any resource that will ask of him (even if it his last)

DaviddesJ
Jun 11, 2006, 11:40 AM
For our purposes, the relevant effect of Permanent Alliance is that it lets us combine our pop and area with Gandhi for purpose of achieving Domination victory (which is our goal). In case that's easier than directly claiming all the territory we need, or if Gandhi gets too big and we can't.

If we're trying to get Gandhi to trade more with us, perhaps we should start by converting to Judiasm. We're going to do this eventually. We can first trade Alphabet to Cyrus for whatever we can get? It doesn't matter after that if he dislikes us, if we're going to attack him soon.

civ_steve
Jun 11, 2006, 01:46 PM
Sound good! Looks like we need Astronomy either way, and a Permanent Alliance helps out for either VC.

ainwood
Jun 11, 2006, 03:21 PM
OK - I probably can't play for another 36 hours, and haven't looked at the save either. I'll try to check it tonight, and then formulate what to do in the turnset. Input welcome.

DaviddesJ
Jun 11, 2006, 05:18 PM
I don't think Diplomatic Victory is on the table at this point: I'm sure we can achieve domination faster than we can build the UN.

Astronomy can be achieved quite early with a beeline research strategy: it doesn't have many prereqs and it's highly valued by Great Scientists so you can get them to pay for most of it.

The fastest route to Domination may be to get Astronomy and soon after shut down research and pour $$$ into upgrading a large stockpile of cheap prebuilds, then at some point crank up culture to control territory. This conflicts with going for Permanent Alliance, though, so we will have to make a decision at some point.

One team finished in the early 1600s, I think. We certainly should be able to do better than that.

DaviddesJ
Jun 11, 2006, 11:25 PM
A couple of quibbles with the last save:

Moscow is working rice instead of cows, which is costing it 2 hammers, in favor of 1 extra food that we don't need (because we're at the happiness limit anyway).

Heliopolis is working an unimproved floodplain, when it could be working a floodplain/hamlet instead (Thebes could shift its citizen to a different hamlet), or at least a floodplain/cottage.

Elephantine has one citizen that isn't assigned at all!

The mine east of Alexandria will never, ever be useful.

Memphis should probably build WCs rather than Swordsmen, just because the latter take so long to get into action. It looks like we're going for a quick attack, we want to throw lots of troops into action quickly, it doesn't matter if we lose several (since once Cyrus is gone it looks like we won't be fighting again for a long time).

It would be nice to connect up our rice resource. Why did we build the road to Novgorod through the hills (where it doesn't do anything for us) instead of through the rice?

DaviddesJ
Jun 11, 2006, 11:36 PM
Looking at the save position, I think we should go for the quick attack on Cyrus before he gets metal. I would declare war next turn. Move the galleys near Susa 1 space SW (which puts them outside Cyrus's borders), then declare war, then grab his worker with one or more units off the boats. Also move the galley near Arbela 2 spaces S before declaring war.

The WC west of Susa may be able to grab the worker there, depending on where it moves this turn.

The WC near Tarsus should be able to move back toward the iron hill and either capture that worker or drive it away. Cyrus is in a very weak position because he doesn't really have any units that can go on offense against us.

We could take Susa, but it's not such a prize (in the short term it will cost us more than it gains us) so we would probably raze it. Or maybe we should just ignore it and drive south. The purpose of declaring war at this time isn't so much to grab cities, as to make sure he never gets metal which will make him easy to kill, and to disrupt his economy.

Before we declare war on Cyrus, I would go ahead and trade Alphabet to him for whatever we can get. Then I would convert to Judaism and see how much that helps our relationship with Gandhi. It would obviously be nice to get Mathematics. If we declare war on Cyrus, then there's also no reason not to give Alphabet to Gandhi (if we can get Math or something useful for it); he doesn't have anyone else to trade with, and we would rather he research something we want, rather than researching Alphabet himself.

DaviddesJ
Jun 12, 2006, 01:33 AM
P.S. We can get Metal Casting in 1 turn by pushing research up to 60%. We should go ahead and do that. I don't know if there's any advantage in getting Metal Casting before we declare war, but there's certainly no disadvantage. Might be useful in trading.

Then we should put research down to 0% for quite some time. Note that we'll still get some research from our specialists. We do have to decide what to put that into. The choices that make sense to me are: Code of Laws, Currency, or Calendar. I like Currency more than some other people because it gives an immediate income boost at no cost (through extra trade routes), it creates the possibility of perhaps getting some gold from Gandhi through trading, it gives a discount toward Code of Laws. This obviously works best if Gandhi researches Calendar, and we can trade Currency (or something else) for Calendar.

We have to get Priesthood or Mathematics, of course, to research any of these.

Literature is also an option, I suppose.

civ_steve
Jun 12, 2006, 10:47 AM
Sorry about Elephantine! I was reassigning citizens and my computer is really bad about selecting a citizen to be taken out or put back into a space; I didn't notice that one specialist had been created. :blush:

Alexandria - I should not have let the Worker finish the mine; only one space other than coast can ever be used by Alexandria, and that will always be the Silver.

Good points about Moscow and Heliopolis.

Road through Rice - :shake: ; that would be better

War plan sounds good. Another round to position Galleys and WC's should just about do it. If we plan to go for Permanent Alliance with India, razing Susa should be fine. No doubt we can either harass or capture the workers, and pillage Cyrus' resource before he can do anything about it. I switched St Pete's to Barracks to give us 2 good production cities in the South for Ground Units and Novgorod to Galley production. Memphis in the North is a good production center but it is very far away. WC's at Memphis sound good for quicker access to the South and to Cyrus and will give us more Horse based units to decide what to do with later in the game.

Hopefully gifting Alphabet to India will open up a MC for Math trade in a few turns. (BTW, I like the thinking that this will ensure India ISN'T researching Alphabet and probably researching something useful for us!) Currency sounds OK - I like the extra trade route per city and per DaviddesJ's discussion, a trade for Calendar would be great.

Going for Astronomy - requires Optics and Calendar; Optics requires Compass and we have to research Machinery. Our first Great Scientist will give us Compass (I believe?), so if we trade for Calendar, we can go Machinery, then Optics, next Astronomy. Is research of Currency beneficial enough on our path to Astronomy to justify the cost, or should we go for Machinery next and try to trade for Currency later? It looks like Astronomy will be required to reach the other civs and Currency may delay that up to 20 or so turns.

Good Luck, ainwood!

ainwood
Jun 12, 2006, 03:22 PM
Shouldn't we use our first GS for an academy?

civ_steve
Jun 12, 2006, 04:19 PM
There's a trade-off to be calculated. It's the turns saved taking the Free Tech now vs potential turns saved having the Academy (in Thebes, or wherever we gain the most benefit). I believe we're planning on just enough research to get us to Communism to sign a Permanent Alliance, and win domination with Medieval type Units (Maces, Knights and Catapults I suppose).

We'll definitely get to Astronomy faster taking the Free Tech; not sure whether Academy or Free Tech is best to get to Communism.

DaviddesJ
Jun 12, 2006, 10:50 PM
Overall, I think we're probably going to be more interested in using GS for free techs than for academies. A main reason is that we have a large empire with high maintenance costs, and no extra source of income (like a shrine), so we're going to be running at a low research rate, on average (but make up for that, to some extent, by having many cities). This makes the academy much less valuable than if you have a small, efficient empire with only a few well-developed cities, that can run at a high research rate, and perhaps you have a single super science city producing a big chunk of your research, e.g., with the Great Library.

To get Astronomy, we only need Compass, Machinery, Optics, Calendar, then Astronomy. Many of these are techs that are highly valued by Great Scientists. On the other hand, if we only research those techs and no others, it's not so clear that we're going to be able to defeat the overseas civilizations that have way better units than we will, even given the human advantage in tactics. After all, Huayna Capac has had Macemen for some time now; he's far ahead of us. We don't know how advanced the other civs are.

Making contact will give us some trade opportunities, but the new civs we encounter won't necessarily like us so much. They probably won't have chosen Judaism.

So we're certainly going to have to research (or trade for) some other techs. I think at a minimum we will end up needing Guilds, for knights (which needs Feudalism, which needs Monarchy). We also certainly need Code of Laws (for courthouses and Caste System)

If we want to aim for Permanent Alliance with Gandhi, then I think we're going to have to go for Military Tradition relatively early; my understanding from the discussions I've seen of PA is that in order to get a PA with an AI player you want to have established a Defensive Pact much earlier. And of course Military Tradition is a natural place to aim if we're going to conquer the world, as well---I'd like to think we can conquer the whole world with knights, but, realistically, I suspect we'll have to have cavalry because by the time we get knights and ship them overseas, we'll be up against gunpowder units.

But, even though I do think we're going to have to research a lot of stuff, the Academy has relatively low value for us, for the reasons in the first paragraph, and the other issue is the short-term benefits of the free tech. E.g., if a Great Scientist will give us Compass, which lets us build a bunch of harbors, and right away start generating more commerce, and we can also trade Compass for something else useful, like Code of Laws or Calendar or Monarchy, which also lets us make our empire more productive, then, I think the short-term benefits of getting those abilities right away, plus the value of the free tech itself, are going to significantly outweigh the value of an Academy. Note that Compass has synergy with Currency, because Currency gives extra trade routes, and Compass lets us build harbors to increase the value of those routes.

Getting to Optics (for caravels) will also give us definite trade benefits, especially if we do it in a beeline so we're likely to be able to trade and fill in some gaps when we cross the ocean. (We can also try to cross the oceans by extending our cultural boundaries out far enough, before Optics.)

By the way, we should be able to pump a lot of GP out of Cyrus's capital, with all of those food resources. Seems like we could get five or six specialists, easy. It looks to me like aiming for National Epic in Persepolis makes sense? And maybe focus primarily on cottages around Heliopolis.

Our tech trading should focus on trying to avoid duplication with Gandhi, by researching stuff he's less likely to research (but that's still useful to us), and trading him whatever we do have so that he won't research it later. And of course on getting the techs we actually need. It wouldn't surprise me if, when we get Mathematics from him, we find out he already has Calendar, which would certainly be a huge boon for us to get sooner rather than later.

DaviddesJ
Jun 12, 2006, 11:24 PM
P.S. For planning purposes, here's the priority list for GP tech discoveries (also available various other places around CFC).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4135261&postcount=13

ainwood
Jun 13, 2006, 05:48 AM
Pre-Flight check:
Novgorod - OK.
Pi-Ramesses - OK
Thebes - at the happiness limit, but still making +3 FPT. As we're about to get into a war, I'll look to mine a hill so that we can build faster. At the moment, its OK, as we're making lots of GPT.
Memphis - as per Thebes. Needs some mines. Swithc to WC to use overflow.
St Petersburg - fine.
Moscow - switch rice to cow.
Heliopolis - switch from 1 GPT tile to 2 GPT one. It is going to be a very unhealthy city, but with massive food surplus - who cares?
Elephantine - at its happiness limit, so switch fish to forests. Decide to let it starve at -1 FPT for an extra hammer. Again - needs mines.
Alexandria - leave to grow. Swithc to granary.

We're at -22 GPT. If we take Susa in 3 turns, we'll be broke before that - drop research to 30% - still metal casting in two, but only -11 GPT.

Turn 1:
IBT - welathiest civs, and we're last :ack:
St Petersburg - Barracks => Swordsmen.
Notice we don't have rice connected - fortunatley, we have a worker next to an unroaded irrgated rice farm.

Now the interesting bit:
I move the two galleys next to the worker.
The other, I move north of arbela.
I trade with cyrus - giving him alphabet for priesthood & archery (not much, but we'll take it).
Gandhi is redded-out. I convert to judaism, and we get an immediate +2 "care for brothers & sisters in the faith". Mathematics & monotheism are now whiote, but he'll only give us monotheism for alphabet. I'll wait a turn for metal casting.

I declare war, and grab two workers. One goes on a galley, the other is escorted byt the war chariot to the hills of susa. I unload near arbela, and load a WC & Settler onto the galley.

Memphis finishes a mine, so I start working it. Start cottage on plains, so we can (eventually) get shield & commerce from it.
Novgorod - start mine on grassland hill.


Turn 2: IBT:
Finish metal casting, start machinery.
Elephantine Galley => archer (garrison for our incense city).
Swap alphabet & metal casting with gandhi for monotheism, mathematics and his brand-new meditation. Unfortunately, he won't stop trading with cyrus ("can't betray close friends).
Can go to organised religion, for four GPT. I figure its not worth it - we have only one city with judaism, and war units are more of a priority than monks (for now).

Turn-off research (+3 GPT)

Could attack susa with 3 WCs vs two archers, but at 25% win chance, I decline.

Turn 3:
Moscow - sword => sword.
Susa has pop-rushed an archer. Given that it has three, I decide to ignore it.

Instead: WC attacks arbela (Archer with city defence 1) 33% chance, and it wins! I check what the instructions are for this, and it seems its raze to build on the incense.
Sounds fine!
Second C2 WC attacks. 63% chance, and wins. I raze arbela for 43 gold. I build on the incense, and start a granary.

Perpolis has 3 archers, a worker and a settler. I move WC to the iron to reduce their production, and wait for reinforcements.
Incense isn't showing-up in the happy roster yet - still need calendar. :(


Turn 4:
Elephantine archer => barracks.
Swith heliopolis to aquaduct.
Cyrus has evacuated an archer from susa, to send it south. Sword kills it to get promotion (but is now 3.5 str)
I pillage iron mine. tarsus has only one archer (albeit defender 1, on a hill, 20% culture bonus) in it.


Turn 5:
St P sword => sword
Damn - careless! Thebes & heliopolis both have one unhappy! Sorry! :(
Cryus now has 4 archers in persepolis, and two in tarsus.
Could probably take tarsus, but perspeolis is the prize. I bypass. We have two axes and a sword in boats on the way.

Turn 6:
memphis Sword -> sword
Gandhi has calendar, but won't share.

Turn 7
Thebes Sword -> sword
Novgorod: Galley => barracks
Cyruss really likes slavery -> 5th archer in persepolis!

Turn 8:
Hmm. Clever. He's just sent two archers out with a settler, just as our stack arrives.

Turn 9:
Memphis -> Sword -> sword
St. P Sword -> sword.

Judaism spreads to novgorod.
Now back to 4 archers in persepolis.
I unload axe next to it.


Turn 10:
Elephantine => Barracks => Sword.
Gandhi has literature, but won't give it up.

....and we leave it there.

We can attack this turn if we like, I haven't used the units in the stack. I suggest holding-off for a couple of turns, because:
* Cyrus will probably get one further archer, but we will get another axe & sword, and our city raider 2 sword will be fully-healed.

Note:
* Unit costs are hurting us - we need to attack within 3 turns to stop going broke. Then we need to pillage a few more cities.
* We have a couple of cities about to grow and get unhappiness -> these need to be sorted (eg. St. P can move from cows to mined hill)
* And sorry about the unhappiness. :blush:

We really need to get our economy out-of-the-toilet. Maybe we just raze all of cyrus' cities (except persepolis)? Calendar would help, because we'd get a happiness bonus, allowing us to grow bigger. I also think Moscow should build a monastry & spread judaism around. I figure getting rid of happiness problems is worth about 10-15 GPT for us.

>>THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC0100_01.Civ4SavedGame)<<

MailMan
Jun 13, 2006, 06:03 AM
I think I am next. I got it. I will probably play tomorrow's night.

It seems I will have the war turns and will probably sign peace near the end of my turns.

Can someone post screenies for discussion, I will not see the game until I have time to play.

DaviddesJ
Jun 13, 2006, 04:13 PM
1. I regret giving up Metal Casting to Gandhi for Monotheism and Meditation (which don't do us much good). Now we have nothing to trade for Calendar (which we need much more). I also question Machinery as a research topic, for reasons in my prevoius posting. It's very expensive and doesn't do much for us (we can easily kill Cyrus with just swordsmen, so the units aren't an immediate benefit). We would be better off with something cheaper, like Currency, which we might be able to trade for something else useful.

2. Our economy is getting untenable. We can't afford to have so much military unless we're actually using it. Losing some units in combat against Cyrus would be good, because it would reduce our maintenance. Even leaving aside capturing his cities for pillage value, we should attack and kill his units while we're at war, even at the cost of our own. It also seems to me that we've overdone the galleys (I don't know if we can bring ourselves to disband them).

3. Growing our population will reduce our unit maintenance somewhat (because free unit support is based on population), but increase our civic costs. What we need most is a lot more cottages. We also need to shift citizens to generate commerce. E.g., Heliopolis is working a forest to produce 1 hammer at the cost of 2 commerce, which is just insane in our position. Elephantine is generating many hammers for a swordsman that will arrive after the war is over, when it could be generating many commerce. Novgorod is building a barracks, which we hardly need, instead of a lighthouse, that would help it generate much more commerce. Or it could have some cottages. Incensetopia also could be generating 2 commerce, while it waits for its borders to expand. Memphis could be generating many commerce, again instead of building swordsmen that will arrive too late anyway. St Petersburg too. In summary I think we could be generating plenty of commerce to be running at a comfortable surplus, rather than deficit, just by reallocating citizens away from hammers that we don't need (or that are even counterproductive because we're then going to have to pay to maintain those units).

4. The good news is that in 11 turns we'll have a Great Scientist. I strongly suggest we use this to discover Compass and then (I hope) trade that to Gandhi for Calendar. That will give our economy a huge boost as we have lots of Calendar resources to exploit.

ainwood
Jun 13, 2006, 04:41 PM
1. I regret giving up Metal Casting to Gandhi for Monotheism and Meditation (which don't do us much good). Now we have nothing to trade for Calendar (which we need much more). I also question Machinery as a research topic, for reasons in my prevoius posting. It's very expensive and doesn't do much for us (we can easily kill Cyrus with just swordsmen, so the units aren't an immediate benefit). We would be better off with something cheaper, like Currency, which we might be able to trade for something else useful.
Metal casting was actually required to get gandhi to give-up mathematics. Without mathematics, we couldn't get calendar anyway, so choices were limited. Machinery gets us a pre-requisite to optics, which I figured would be what we would get with our second GS.



2. Our economy is getting untenable. We can't afford to have so much military unless we're actually using it. Losing some units in combat against Cyrus would be good, because it would reduce our maintenance. Even leaving aside capturing his cities for pillage value, we should attack and kill his units while we're at war, even at the cost of our own. It also seems to me that we've overdone the galleys (I don't know if we can bring ourselves to disband them).

I just finished the galley builds, but I actually think we have about the right number (-ish). Our main problem is actually that our supply lines are too long - its taking about 10 turns to get units to the front lines.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments that we should be attacking more, there is not a lot of point in suiciding units if we don't have a reasonable chance of capturing / razing a city - otherwise, units are wasted. For me, the prize is persepolis, which is the holy city for both budhism & hinduism - if we're lucky, it may have a shrine. I didn't want to attack susa or tarsus, because winning chances are fairly low, and losses would be high: we wouldn't have enough units to then take a second city (both are on hills with city-defender promoted archers). In fact, I think trying to take persepolis now is high-risk: I advocate waiting for the sword & axe to arrive (two turns to land, plus one to attack).

The other units being ferried-down can stop-off and attack susa & tarsus.



3. Growing our population will reduce our unit maintenance somewhat (because free unit support is based on population), but increase our civic costs. What we need most is a lot more cottages. We also need to shift citizens to generate commerce. E.g., Heliopolis is working a forest to produce 1 hammer at the cost of 2 commerce, which is just insane in our position. Elephantine is generating many hammers for a swordsman that will arrive after the war is over, when it could be generating many commerce. Novgorod is building a barracks, which we hardly need, instead of a lighthouse, that would help it generate much more commerce. Or it could have some cottages. Incensetopia also could be generating 2 commerce, while it waits for its borders to expand. Memphis could be generating many commerce, again instead of building swordsmen that will arrive too late anyway. St Petersburg too. In summary I think we could be generating plenty of commerce to be running at a comfortable surplus, rather than deficit, just by reallocating citizens away from hammers that we don't need (or that are even counterproductive because we're then going to have to pay to maintain those units).
Yes - we can probably balance the books, which is why I didn't intervene earlier. If we are serious about destroying cyrus, then we probably have about enough units just now - I didn't want to do it half-arsed and then have to do it again later against longbows. OUr best chance to destroy him is still "now".

I also think that spreading judaism will help - as we are happiness constrained more than health. Calendar is very necessary - maybe we can extort it from cyruss for peace (not sure what techs he has)


4. The good news is that in 11 turns we'll have a Great Scientist. I strongly suggest we use this to discover Compass and then (I hope) trade that to Gandhi for Calendar. That will give our economy a huge boost as we have lots of Calendar resources to exploit.Hopefully. We have sugar, spices & incense, so calendar will enable a massive improvement.

DaviddesJ
Jun 13, 2006, 05:40 PM
Have you been chaining galleys to move units faster? That's the most important thing for reducing the length of the unit supply pipeline.

I don't question that we get the most bang for the buck by taking (or razing) cities, we just want to time our war so that we do use all of our units to attack before making peace.

If we could have gotten Math for Metal Casting, and kept Alphabet for later, I think that would have been better. Water under the bridge, at this point.

I think we should assign two scientists in at least one additional city now, in order to start accumulating GPP toward our second GP. We can de-allocate the two scientists in Thebes, when we get our first GS, if we want.

Using the second GS for Optics sounds great, although I don't know if we can get Machinery by then. If we start now, it's 50 turns max to a 2nd GS, so to get Machinery in that time we'd have to average 30 bpt. I guess that's possible.

Given our locked peace and good relationship with Gandhi, we might actually want to adopt a "research" strategy where we never do any research, and just try to buy techs from Gandhi for gold (and/or free techs from GP). We avoid duplication this way, plus, if we give him more gold that will accelerate his own research.

Researching Machinery is probably worthwhile if we know he's not. It would be bad if we spend 50 turns researching it just to get it the same time that he does. We'd rather have saved up gold and trade gold to him.

Persepolis doesn't have a shrine; it would show up on the wonders page (F9). Plus we would have gotten an announcement when Cyrus made a GP. Unfortunately, it's hard to see us getting a shrine there ourselves, any time soon. It certainly would have been nice if Cyrus had built one for us.

Cyrus doesn't have any techs that we want. He does have Meditation, which we probably could have gotten for peace.

In addition to sugar, spices, and incense, there is silk near Susa if we manage to take that city.

DaviddesJ
Jun 13, 2006, 05:43 PM
What's the workboat doing off by Calcutta? Probably it should just come improve the clams near our incense city.

civ_steve
Jun 13, 2006, 07:56 PM
@DaviddesJ - thanks for the link to the free Techs list from GP! I knew there were a few lists floating around; this one seems pretty straightforward and comprehensive.

Not sure how the AI works, but I'd think India would finish whatever he's researching now first. If this is the case, then he's not research Machinery since he just got MetalCasting. Do you know of anyway to find out for sure?

Trading MetalCasting was essential to get Mathematics, which we definitely needed before the GS shows up, or that's what we'd get. And we needed it for Currency or Calendar anyway. Gandhi had already asked for Alphabet, so trading it to clear the table seems a good idea - lets Gandhi research something else. Hopefully not Machinery if he was researching Alphabet.

I agree that Currency would be very useful - gold trading and extra trade route per city. However, Machinery is on our critical Tech path and we have to research it to reach Astronomy now or later. Now gets us to Astronomy that much faster.

I like the idea to start accumulating GPP's somewhere already! Perhaps Heliopolis? (If they have a library). Timing a free Optics immediately after learning Machinery would be sweet! Or even Astronomy itself ... yum!

I don't like the idea of letting Gandhi leading the research and we buy Techs from him. Prefer to push along critical path and trade for other useful Techs to extent possible.

I can imagine our unit costs are really high right now (our Power and Score charts look good, BTW! I think we're about 20-30 turns ahead of the other teams for capturing territory purposes.) Persepolis is one city we need to capture and hold; the other two coastal cities can be razed, I believe, although Susa has nice resources. Cyrus has at least 1 city on the West coast of the continent so we will need at least one more offensive to totally eliminate him. Not sure if we can or should do in Pasargadae this round as well. If we plan to eventually have permanent alliance with Gandhi, then leaving more space to him to take over is better than us eating the maintenance cost for the extra cities.

Definitely convert the Northern cities into Cottage/commerce powerhouses - they have very long support lines to get to the South anyway. Might use Moscow and/or St Pete's to support current operations (additional units if needed); otherwise agree we should go to a commerce development per DaviddesJ's ideas.

I take it the Workboat did not find any other nearby land masses. If so, time to put it to work.

My 2 cents. Sorry for no screen shots MailMan; I'm far away from my home computer right now. Good Luck!

ainwood
Jun 13, 2006, 08:08 PM
The workboat is on its way back to the clams by insenstopia.

Heliopolis was on a library, but I actually changed that to an aquaduct when we bought more mines on. It was a tough call (and maybe the wrong one), but I figured that the medium-term growth would allow more commerce. Actually, on reflection, we should probably go back to a library there - probably pop-rush it.

Units costs are (IIRC) 9 for supply & 21 for costs. :ack:

DaviddesJ
Jun 13, 2006, 10:16 PM
I don't know any way to know for sure what he's researching. I was pretty sure he would research Calendar before Alphabet, the AIs always seem to do that, which is why I would have traded Metal Casting for Mathematics and then wait to see if we could get Calendar for Alphabet.

At this point, I'd be (quite) surprised if he researches Machinery, so, from that point of view, it's an ok track for us to pursue. We should still leave research at zero for at least 20 more turns; we're going to need that long to accumulate gold to fund a higher research rate.

I hate to commit to needing permanent alliance with Gandhi for a win, since we don't really know how long that will take . On the other hand, even if he grabs most of his island, we still can get to domination on our own by taking everything else, I am willing to take that chance.

Once we make peace with Cyrus, we should send two galleys to circumnavigate the two continents, checking again for any possible routes to other lands. Probably keep the rest in our borders (at least for the most part) to avoid supply costs. Note that complete circumnavigation of Gandhi/Cyrus will be infeasible because of Cyrus's city on the other coast (where we can't move through his territory after peace), so we may want to send one galley clockwise and one counterclockwise.

Phabuk
Jun 14, 2006, 03:35 AM
what is the playing order ?

it's mailman turn now, and after ?

civ_steve
Jun 14, 2006, 08:46 AM
DaviddesJ suggested we play the order from the last round. That would be:

civ_steve
ainwood
PaulK
DaviddesJ
MailMan
Phabuk

The Original order was:

civ_steve
ainwood
MailMan
Keith Larson
PaulK
DaviddesJ
Phabuk

No one objected to playing to DaviddesJ's suggested order, but they might have missed that post in the sequence of posts. MailMan posted a 'got-it' before PaulK. Probably best to maintain the original order and swap turns as personal needs arise.

In any case, either way, after MailMan plays it goes:

PaulK
DaviddesJ
Phabuk

and back to the top of the order.

MailMan - How's it going?

Paulk
Jun 14, 2006, 08:49 AM
Civ_steve is next, right? With Keith out, should we try to repeat the order from the last cycle? I.e.,

civ_steve
ainwood
PaulK
DaviddesJ
MailMan
Phabuk

I guess were going bak to orignal order, if mailman is next. Which would be:

Mailman
DaviddesJ
Paulk
Phabuk
Civ_steve
ainwood

DaviddesJ
Jun 14, 2006, 09:17 AM
I guess were going bak to orignal order, if mailman is next. Which would be:

Mailman
DaviddesJ
Paulk
Phabuk
Civ_steve
ainwood

Fine with me.

civ_steve
Jun 14, 2006, 10:14 AM
I'll assume that was a request to swap. DaviddesJ is up next after MailMan completes his turns.

MailMan
Jun 14, 2006, 01:19 PM
preturn
rush aqueduct in Heliopolis
move units forward

1. 85BC
noticed that Gandhi has calender
attack Perepolis and capture the city.

2. 70BC
IBT Cyrus attack a wounded axe with an archer and kills him
I counter attack and lose another sword against the odds.
cities that complete units I put on forges (for both happiness and 25% bonus)

3. 55BC
WW starts to show its ugly face
Attack and capture Susa

4. 40BC
heal units

5. 25BC
6. 10BC
move forces

7. 5AD
attack and raze Tarsus
I made peace with Cyrus strait up (he has nothing to give)

8. 20AD
Gandhi has connected some calender resources.
I trade rice + out last crabs for silks and dyes.
I started the colossus. I think we really needs that wonder and we got a good chance of getting it.

9. 35AD
10. 50AD
nothing much

Note for next player
I think we should disband few units, especially galleys and warriors.
We need to focus on out economy.


Here is your Session Turn Log from 100 BC to 50 AD:

Turn 160, 100 BC: The borders of Thebes have expanded!
Turn 160, 100 BC: You have constructed a Aqueduct in Heliopolis. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 160, 100 BC: The borders of Incensetopia have expanded!
Turn 160, 100 BC: The Kong Miao has been built in a far away land!

Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (5.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (7.65)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 9.3%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Peanut's War Chariot!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (7.35)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 25.9%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Swordsman (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (5.40)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 62.8%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Peanut's Swordsman!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (7.05)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 28.1%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman (5.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (5.09)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 42.0%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (61/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Peanut's Axeman!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (5.20)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 60.0%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (50/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (32/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (14/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (4.30)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 76.0%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 19 (42/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 19 (23/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 19 (4/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 161, 85 BC: You have captured Persepolis!!!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer (3.00) vs Peanut's Axeman (3.60)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 64.9%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 13 (24/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 13 (11/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 13 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Peanut's Axeman!

Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Swordsman (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (4.26)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Combat Odds: 84.8%
Turn 162, 70 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 162, 70 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 21 (50/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Peanut's Swordsman!
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Axeman (5.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (3.00)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Combat Odds: 94.9%
Turn 162, 70 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 162, 70 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 21 (29/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 21 (8/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Peanut's Axeman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!

Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (7.35)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 21.7%
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (6.45)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 27.3%
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Peanut's Swordsman!
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (2.77)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (21/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's Swordsman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 163, 55 BC: You have captured Susa!!!
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (6.04) vs Cyrus's Archer (4.80)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 75.3%
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 17 (76/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!

Turn 164, 40 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Pi-Ramesses. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 165, 25 BC: The borders of Heliopolis have expanded!
Turn 165, 25 BC: Judaism has spread in Susa.
Turn 165, 25 BC: Homer has been born in a far away land!
Turn 165, 25 BC: Cyrus converts to Judaism!
Turn 165, 25 BC: Merit Ptah has been born in a far away land!

Turn 166, 10 BC: Hinduism has spread in Elephantine.

Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (7.95)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Combat Odds: 22.1%
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot (6.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (7.35)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Combat Odds: 30.3%
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's Axeman (5.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (3.84)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Combat Odds: 81.8%
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 20 (44/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's Axeman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Peanut's Axeman!
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot (6.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (3.23)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (22/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 167, 5 AD: You have captured Tarsus!!!
Turn 167, 5 AD: You have destroyed the city of Tarsus!!!
Turn 167, 5 AD: You have made peace with Cyrus!

Turn 170, 50 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 $ for Novgorod.


The 50AD SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0050_01.Civ4SavedGame)

DaviddesJ
Jun 14, 2006, 02:41 PM
Got it. I understand I'm next. Will post my thoughts in 6 hours or so.

DaviddesJ
Jun 14, 2006, 10:08 PM
OK, here are my comments:

1. Susa is costing us roughly 15 gpt; it's not going to pay that back any time soon. I think we should have razed it, but too late now. My idea now is to gift it to Gandhi. That way, we save money, he may get some benefit (which indirectly helps us), and we still keep Cyrus from reconnecting to copper. There's some danger that Gandhi will trade copper to Cyrus, but I think not all that much, and soon we can just wipe Cyrus out (it wouldn't be that hard to do that anyway, even if he gets copper). The potential value of Susa was the silk, but we got that in trade from Gandhi anyway. (Admittedly, if we didn't have to trade a resource for the silk, eventually we could get some gpt for that resource from Gandhi, so we're giving up an eventual benefit from the silk, but it's pretty far off.) Susa is always going to be a crappy city because it has no bonus food, and can't even build a lighthouse.

2. When we get the GS, I plan to use it for Compass, and then trade for Calendar. I'll start working toward some more GS's in other cities (MailMan didn't do this yet, as far as I see---which is a shame as it will delay our next GP). I'll try to figure out if I can get two scientists and an engineer somewhere so that we can get a GP faster, with a chance for a GE (which I think we prefer to a GS, even given our Optics plan??).

3. Should we shift citizens in St Petersburg off the gems, in order to get more hammers toward Colossus? It could be a close race. I'll try to work out how fast we can build it, under various scenarios. The Colossus is not a huge benefit (grassland/cottage is competitive with coast, even with the Colossus).

4. I really wish Pi-Ramesses were 2E, where it could work the rice. :( :(

5. Novgorod is building a barracks we don't really need at this point, but it's already finished. How about building a lighthouse next, rather than the library that isn't going to do us much use for some time? Alternatively, I could just concentrate on giving it some cottages, and forget about working the coast (even if we get Colossus?).

6. Same question for Pi-Ramesses: should we build lighthouse, before forge?

7. I think Moscow should work gems and lake (or farm), for faster growth and more commerce. Jewish Monastery is useful but not urgent.

8. I'm inclined to disband our warriors, as soon as I can find alternate garrison troops from our overseas forces. How soon are we going to re-attack Cyrus? Do we want to basically move into position during the turns of enforced peace, then take him out right away, and then we can just send our units home (and disband those we don't need)? Or should we leave him alone for a while, and pull our units back for garrison duty, planning to set up for a re-attack in a few cycles? The land isn't worth much to us now. The only immediate gain that I see is access to marble, which we don't need right now but would be nice if we get Literature from Gandhi at some point. I can pull back the war chariots for garrison duty, which are pretty easy to rush to the front again (but then we'll need units to replace them at home, if we disband the warriors).

DaviddesJ
Jun 14, 2006, 10:33 PM
Note: I will play in about 24 hours from this post; if you have any comments, please post them by then. I'm particularly interested in comments on whether I should set up for an immediate repeat attack on Cyrus, or withdraw WCs to our home continent while disbanding warriors (I lean toward the latter). Also, I want feedback on the idea of gifting Susa to Gandhi (I'm leaning toward it, unless I hear a contrary opinion).

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 12:16 AM
P.S. Susa has access to wine, so that's a possible reason to keep it (but is it enough to justify 15 gpt?). I wish we had razed it and could then build later.

civ_steve
Jun 15, 2006, 01:31 AM
Let me start by saying its a crime to have St Pete's and Moscow at Size4, when they can be as high as Size11. Our Commerce problem is due to not growing our cities and not building and using Cottages. I would put Moscow on strict growth regimen, using Rice, Suger, Cows and Gems (growth in 1), and go from there. (So agree with #7 but with emphasis on growth). Monastery is OK, but secondary.

Also, we need several Workboats right away to work Persepolis' bonus spaces once it expands. I would use Novgorod for this, delaying Barracks for later.

Specific responses

#1 We get GS in 4 turns; if Susa and Compass is required for Calendar, I would trade it at this time. Long term it benefits us, but only if we build Cottages everywhere we can. Wine is a ways from benefitting us, since we're nowhere near pop limit anywhere (I guess that can be fixed fairly quickly)

#2 I like the plan. See #1 about using Susa also if Compass isn't enough to get Calendar. Definitely behind since another city wasn't generating GPP; 2nd GS is delayed 10 turns.

#3 Colossus? Not sure if I like it. It expires when we learn Astronomy (which is 3 Techs away, once our economy is restarted). Right now it only gets us an additional 6 Commerce/turn; we'll get more once Persepolis is online, but probably at most about +20 or so. I can go either way, but we should build it as fast as possible if we go for it.

#4 Yup

#5 See above; I prefer it help Persepolis get started by building Workboats. Cottages and Lighthouse are good additions (better than Barracks since we're high on units right now)

#6 It will want a Forge at some point; Lighthouse makes Colossus more valuable. Needs some cottages as well. Probably suggest Lighthouse first, then finish Forge, and focus on Growth.

#7 Agreed

#8 I'm inclined to dispose of Cyrus right away. It wont be until the next set of turns in either case, but we have the units to do it (at least the 2 nearby cities, probably leaving his Western cities). Don't mind disbanding any extra garrison troops we may have, but Unit costs are not our main issue.

So, focus on Growth and commerce generation is my main input.

ainwood
Jun 15, 2006, 04:27 AM
Persepolis already has two work boats, so I don't think getting more is ultra-urgent, although agree that the more, the better.

I'd like to get rid of cyrus straight away - we have enough units to do it, and have open border with gandhi, so can get to phonecian. Units costs will decrease if we lose a few as well...

As for our economy, it is pretty-much nerfed! We're going to have to go for a great-person research strategy, because I think it will take us a long time to recover. On this, I think that giving-away susa is a good option, although it does make us more reliant on the permanent alliance.

One thing to consider is that if we're going to commit ourselves to the permanent-alliance victory, then we will have to research further down the tech tree (otherwise, stopping at macemen + galleons was an option), although given how advanced that mans musa will be, this will probably turn-out to be the correct call anyway.

In terms of turning our economy around - I agree that getting to the pop limit is the key, with cottages (note that you're better to grow to the max on high-food tiles & farms, then switch to cottages - the effect is even higher if you have granaries; rather than work cottages early to grow them).

I'd also like to get code-of-laws. SOme courthouses would be very useful!

I like the suggestions for moscow - grow it - with rice & cows, as well as a farm, it can grow reasonably quickly. Seeing as there are forest to be cleared, is there anything wrong with chopping them (to build the monastry & then monks?) then cottaging the area.

Re the colossus - no strong feelings either way. I would probably stick to commerce (and maybe emphasising growth) - if we lose it, we at least get cash, which could be worth a lot to our cause.

Phabuk
Jun 15, 2006, 05:39 AM
I vote for Cyrus destruction right now!

I agree to give susa to gandhi if it helps to trade for calendar.

Nothing more... just the fact that we need to grow our population, it is the base of our economy.

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 10:34 AM
Giving Susa to Gandhi won't get us any benefit in terms of trading for other things. The Civ4 model doesn't allow trading cities for tech---too exploitable.

I am quite surprised that everyone wants to attack Cyrus now given that everyone also agrees that we have an economic burden. If we attack Cyrus now, and keep his cities, that will further damage our economy, with little benefit to us any time soon. If we raze his cities, then Gandhi will claim that land, and the direct benefit to us is minimal. (Or we can capture them, and gift them to Gandhi, with similar effect.) Meanwhile, just fighting the war is very expensive in the short term (support for away troops, maintenance for more units), and will take quite some time if we want to march all the way to the west coast just to raze that city so that Gandhi can rebuild there.

Why not just leave Cyrus alone and grab his remaining cities when perhaps we've built up enough infrastructure that the additional cities aren't such a burden?? I guess I don't see the benefit that others are seeing, from attacking him again soon. The purpose of the last attack was to grab resources (which we did), the prime site of Persepolis (which we did), and cut off Cyrus from metal (which we did). What's the purpose of the next attack?

P.S. Our costs (for civics) are about 0.5-0.6 gold per pop, I think. So growing our pop does help our economy, but not as much or as quickly as some might think, as we also have to develop tiles for those citizens to work.

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 10:58 AM
#3 Colossus? Not sure if I like it. It expires when we learn Astronomy (which is 3 Techs away, once our economy is restarted). Right now it only gets us an additional 6 Commerce/turn; we'll get more once Persepolis is online, but probably at most about +20 or so. I can go either way, but we should build it as fast as possible if we go for it.

We could also build 99% of the Colossus, then put it on hold until someone else completes it. Result is that we get 375 gold right away, as opposed to a commerce benefit from sea/ocean tiles which is probably in the range of 10-20 gpt for 50-100 turns. The latter is worth more in the long run but the former gives us an immediate benefit which we can leverage.

Either way it's worth building the Colossus (i.e., if we try to build it ourselves, but someone finishes it before us, that's good too).

Don't mind disbanding any extra garrison troops we may have, but Unit costs are not our main issue.

Being at war costs us probably something like 20 gpt for 20 turns. It's quite a lot.

civ_steve
Jun 15, 2006, 12:04 PM
I still have in my mind the Civ3 model for combat, and haven't fully incorporated the Civ4 costs of holding a larger empire.

With that in mind, and since we want the Marble city most likely, and Persepolis has nice Rivers and Forests we can use, I've switched my mind to delaying the attack on Cyrus to later. This would be more consistent with growing our economy; resuming the war will cost our economy even more at this time, and we really need to get back on track. Cyrus is mortally wounded and will not be a problem in the future.

Colossus discussion makes me feel better about this build.

Regarding Permanent Alliance - don't know if this is the way to go until we locate the rest of the AI and see what we're up against. If Susa is costing us 15 gpt (I see 8 in the city window; is the other 7 due to cost for the extra city spread over the empire?), gifting it would benefit us, short term, as much as completing Colossus would. But it would tip us towards the Permanent Alliance option (not necessarily a bad thing). I can go either way (probably a bit towards gifting it to Gandhi; need some research now!). Didn't know that Cities for Techs weren't an option. Don't know a lot of things about Civ4 yet! :)

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 12:12 PM
Colossus discussion makes me feel better about this build.

At a minimum, Colossus will get us roughly 10 gpt, even if we work no water tiles except the ones with resources. So it's clearly worth building.

If Susa is costing us 15 gpt (I see 8 in the city window; is the other 7 due to cost for the extra city spread over the empire?), gifting it would benefit us, short term, as much as completing Colossus would.

Yes, that's right---the city has a cost itself, plus it increases the maintenance for all other cities, and also increases our civics cost a bit. My estimate of 15 gpt is based on the increment in total city maintenance from capturing the last two cities. We should subtract from that about 5 gpt that the city can easily generate (2 from trade, 1 from city core, 2 from additional tile), so the net cost of the city is about 10 gpt. It's not that hard to get this city to a rough balance, over a few tens of turns, but it's never going to be a big net contributor. In the long run, the only things it's going to give us are wine and territory (for domination).

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 12:32 PM
By the way, if we were going to re-attack Cyrus soon, then we could gift Susa back to him now (perhaps after pillaging the copper mine), instead of gifting it to Gandhi. As long as we re-attack before he can hook up the copper, there wouldn't really be any downside for us. And we could raze it the next time we capture it (I think).

civ_steve
Jun 15, 2006, 01:50 PM
That sounds even better! I would hate to give away Wine Permanently. I would think Cyrus could wait roughly 20 to 30 turns; or maybe until we have Machinery just about in the bag.

civ_steve
Jun 15, 2006, 02:05 PM
Just thinking about this some more. We don't have Open Borders with Cyrus. If we gift Susa back to Cyrus, does it regain the Cultural Radius it had prior to us capturing it? If so, was it big enough to isolate Persepolis? If the answers are yes - yes, maybe not a good idea.

ainwood
Jun 15, 2006, 03:21 PM
My view on attacking cyrus was linked to the statement about being committed to needing a permanent alliance to win.

I don't mind waiting to attack cyrus - its just that I don't want to get stuck in a half-way house: paying maintenance on an attack force that we're not using, only to have them go obsolete before we attack - if cryus gets fuedalism, that's exactly where we'll be.

Phabuk
Jun 15, 2006, 04:45 PM
at least we could take parsagades and then make peace, and disband units to reduce the expanses. Cyrus will then really be down on his knees.

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 05:35 PM
We don't have Open Borders with Cyrus, but I believe he would accept if we offer, so we would still connect our cities. He could revoke it at some future time, which might be a hassle.

I don't like gifting Susa back to him because in 30-40 turns he can likely connect copper and build spearmen and axemen. We can still kill him, though, so maybe that's not a huge issue. I can't imagine him getting Feudalism in time to matter, with his empire virtually destroyed.

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 11:21 PM
I'm going to try to play my turns soon, and probably going to gift Susa to Gandhi. One further observation: given the wine location, we might actually be able to found a city nearer to the wine than Susa, and thus gain control over it culturally. Note that it will take Gandhi longer to expand his cultural borders, because he's not spiritual, although he does get 1 culture/turn from Judaism. Also, I do plan to pillage the copper mine (which gives us money? or does it have to be in someone's cultural borders?).

ainwood
Jun 15, 2006, 11:24 PM
Well, the comments re cultural borders are only really valid if we found a city "soon", but founding such a city would put us right-back in terms of maintenance - might as well just keep susa.

I think we should just forgo the wines - for now.

DaviddesJ
Jun 15, 2006, 11:41 PM
Well, the comments re cultural borders are only really valid if we found a city "soon", but founding such a city would put us right-back in terms of maintenance - might as well just keep susa.

Why? I think that if we have a city generating 5 culture/turn (let's say we chop a library, and bring in a jewish missionary) that's adjacent to the wine, and he has a city that's only generating 1 culture/turn (it would take him a long time to build a library, although maybe he will eventually) and is two spaces away from the wine, that it won't take us long to gain control of that space, even if he has controlled it for 30-40 turns and built up some influence there. Indeed, I think I've done this before.

Indeed, we might even get the wine without discovering Monarchy, if we can get him to build a winery there, and then push his borders back. :mischief: (Does that work?)

Another possibility is that Gandhi may have a 2nd wine and be willing to trade us this one, as he did with the other resources we need.

Phabuk
Jun 16, 2006, 07:08 AM
I am leaving for the WE.
I 'll be back on monday, just in time to play after paulk...

DaviddesJ
Jun 17, 2006, 01:47 AM
200 AD save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0200_01.Civ4SavedGame

I did my best to get our economy back on track. I decided not to disband very many units (because we might need them, and it's cheaper to keep them than rebuild them), so we're still at -11 gpt Unit Cost. But we're running a net +42 gpt (at 0% research), and +14 bpt (from specialists), so that's not too bad. I think we can get Machinery in about 10 turns (i.e., 4 more turns at 0%, then 6 turns at 100%).

My plan to gift Susa to Gandhi didn't work out exactly as expected; he apparently did a culture bomb there a few turns later, so he's got a lot of territory from it (but not territory that we particularly want or need). We aren't going to get the Wine, though.

We look good for getting the Colossus in 2 turns (with some micromanagement next turn). This will be a significant economic boost (especially in the short term). Gandhi got the Great Library (good---better than Huayna Capac getting it). I didn't start on the Hanging Gardens, but I suggest that Memphis do that next (after finishing the Aqueduct).

Unfortunately, we're 40 turns from a second GS in Heliopolis, although we can accelerate our GPP by building a forge and allocating an engineer soon (or perhaps by trading for Literature and building Heroic Epic somewhere). In less than 40 turns, i'm sure we can research Optics directly, so we may want to do that and then use our next GP toward Astronomy. Note that we're not necessarily in a big hurry to get Astronomy. Optics is very important, for making contact with Caravels. Getting Astronomy, to actually cross the oceans in force, is less important, unless/until we're ready to actually conquer people. I just started accumulating toward a third GP in Thebes (but PaulK can reverse that, if he wants).

I can't tell how we're actually doing in the team competition. We're #1 in score at 200 AD, by a lot. We've also turned Gandhi into a real superpower. Wiping out Cyrus primarily benefited him, I think. Not to mention all the resources we've given him. So, if we can get him on our side very strongly, that should be a big advantage. Note that we don't need to discover Communism for a Permanent Alliance (or Military Tradition for Defensive Pact); we just need Gandhi to discover those techs! That might be much easier!

Turn 170, 50 AD: Memphis citizen from hill/mine to floodplain/cottage
Turn 170, 50 AD: Moscow citizen from hill/mine to gems
Turn 170, 50 AD: Moscow citizen from hill/mine to sugar
Turn 170, 50 AD: Thebes citizen from town to farm
Turn 170, 50 AD: Heliopolis citizen from farm to scientist
Turn 170, 50 AD: Heliopolis citizen from desert/mine to scientist
Turn 170, 50 AD: Elephantine citizen from forest to coast
Turn 170, 50 AD: Elephantine citizen from mine to coast
Turn 170, 50 AD: Elephantine citizen from quarry to coast
Turn 170, 50 AD: Novgorod build lighthouse after barracks
Turn 170, 50 AD: Pi-Ramesses build lighthouse before forge
Turn 170, 50 AD: Persepolis citizen from forest to lake
Turn 170, 50 AD: Disband warrior in Alexandria
Turn 170, 50 AD: Pi-Ramesses axeman move toward Thebes
Turn 170, 50 AD: Disband warrior in St Petersburg
Turn 170, 50 AD: Disband warrior in Moscow
Turn 170, 50 AD: WC pillage mine near Susa (15 gold!)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Gift Susa to Gandhi
Turn 170, 50 AD: Novgorod builds Barracks, begins Lighthouse.
Turn 170, 50 AD: Thespis has been born in a far away land!

Turn 171, 65 AD: Disband warrior in Thebes
Turn 171, 65 AD: Moscow citizen from mine to lake
Turn 171, 65 AD: Persepolis build granary before workboat
Turn 171, 65 AD: The borders of Persepolis have expanded!

Turn 172, 80 AD: Cyrus wants open borders: I agree
Turn 172, 80 AD: Gandhi has Drama
Turn 172, 80 AD: Persepolis citizen from lake to fish

Turn 173, 95 AD: Thebes citizen from farm to quarry
Turn 173, 95 AD: Xi Ling Shi has been born in Thebes!
Turn 173, 95 AD: Incensetopia builds Granary, begins Lighthouse.
Turn 173, 95 AD: Judaism has spread in Incensetopia.
Turn 173, 95 AD: Persepolis builds Granary, begins Work Boat.
Turn 173, 95 AD: The Great Library has been built in a far away land!

Turn 174, 110 AD: You have discovered Compass! (via GS)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Thebes scientist to rice
Turn 174, 110 AD: Thebes scientist to farm
Turn 174, 110 AD: Moscow sugar to cottage
Turn 174, 110 AD: Incensetopia spices to cows
Turn 174, 110 AD: Novgorod builds Lighthouse, begins Work Boat.

Turn 175, 125 AD: You have discovered Calendar! (trade for Compass)

Turn 176, 140 AD: Disband warrior in Memphis
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi has Monarchy
Turn 176, 140 AD: Pi-Ramesses builds Lighthouse, begins Work Boat.
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 177, 155 AD: Peace Treaty with Cyrus expires (no action taken)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Persepolis builds Work Boat, begins Lighthouse.

Turn 178, 170 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 54 $ for Memphis.

Turn 179, 185 AD: Chichen Itza has been built in a far away land!

Turn 180, 200 AD: Gandhi has Horseback Riding
Turn 180, 200 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 $ for Heliopolis.
Turn 180, 200 AD: Allocate 2 scientists in Thebes

civ_steve
Jun 17, 2006, 02:35 AM
Part of my ongoing education with CIV. So the ability to enter Ocean is tied to the unit - Galleys and Workboats can't (unless cultural radius allows it) and the other naval units can. So Optics, which provides Caravel, allows Ocean travel by permiting Caravels.

So if we build Colossus, Astronomy will cancel it out, so it may be worthwhile to research other useful Techs while we explore with Caravels to keep the Colossus benefit. Getting a 2nd GS can help us to dictate the timing for this. If we research Optics after Machinery, the 2nd GS would give us Astronomy for Free. (So Optics next sound good.)

Other Techs that lead us to Communism is the Theology - Paper - Printing Press route. Printing Press is required for Scientific Method (after Astronomy), which leads to Communism.

Communism requires Liberalism. From Paper, Education then Liberalism. Liberalism grants a Free Tech, which could be Communism.

If we can lead Gandhi down this path, that would be great! Machinery should gain us a Couple of Gandhi's Techs, and at each new Tech we can do more trading. We look to be on track to make contacts soon (after Machinery and Optics) - very good progress, and the Commerce game is coming under control.

PaulK - you're UP!

DaviddesJ
Jun 17, 2006, 10:58 AM
Astronomy is too expensive for a GS: the GS will give us a credit toward the cost of Astronomy, but not all of it.

The most important thing is going to be conquering the rest of the world. If we do that, we'll have a choice whether to try to achieve Domination by extending our culture over virtually all of that territory (not too hard with Drama, if we shut down research), or trying to get the Permanent Alliance, in which case we won't need to control nearly as much territory.

ainwood
Jun 17, 2006, 05:57 PM
The creative trait helps, too. Once we have optics, should we either try to get currency and/or code-of-laws (trade?), or go for astronomy? Any other things we'd like? (Eg. monarchy for hereditory rule?)

DaviddesJ
Jun 17, 2006, 09:46 PM
I wish we had Currency. We could get gpt from Gandhi for those resources we're just giving him for free now. But I don't want to research it now. And I definitely don't want to research anything that Gandhi already has. I think we should head directly for Optics and then make overseas contacts (we should pre-position our Galleys, preferably with Explorers onboard, so that we can upgrade them and set off immediately when we get Optics). If we're lucky, we can trade for lots of techs when we make contacts.

When we get Machinery, we should be able to trade that for multiple techs from Gandhi. Of what he presently has, I would prioritize Literature, then Monarchy, then Drama. (We will want Horseback Riding for Knights and Cavalry, eventually, but in the short term we want to avoid it because WCs at $37 are better than HAs for $75.) But Gandhi will probably research other stuff that we may want more. Since we're at least 10 turns from Machinery, we should be able to discuss this after the next cycle.

ainwood
Jun 18, 2006, 02:05 AM
Thoughts:

Thebes should switch from rice to mined, and from floodplains farm to mine. This gives us forge in 3 (currently 6) for the loss of one gold. It should then build an aquaduct (as there will be -1 health with the forge), and assign an engineer. Spreading judaism there should be a priority as well, as happiness is maxed-out.

Memphis will finish an aquadust soon - then what? Not many options. Research? Has both forge & library, so could start working towards a GP?

St. Petersburg can be MM'd to get colossus in 2. Lighthouse & harbour are already queued - looks good.

Moscow should stay on missionaries, although I think we could work farms instead of cottages, and perhaps build another farm next to the lake - it still has a lot of growth potential.

Heliopolis is about to grow. Then can start working mines, and finish forge faster. How many cities do we want to go for GP in? This already has 60 GP points, so I think we should try and get the forge ASAP. It still has whip unhappiness, but can finish the forge in four-five turns if hills are worked.

Elephantine - I think we should prioritise harbour over forge - especially if we can get currency 'soon'.

Alexandria - should finish granary, then harbour? Maybe chop the forest to help?

Persepolis - perhaps wait two turns to grow, then work mines for a few turns to speed lighthouse? Then maybe build its own workboats (travel time from novgorad is quite a few turns!)

Paulk
Jun 18, 2006, 02:56 AM
"Got it"
I'll play in the next 16-24 hours.
So we have some time to discuss.

civ_steve
Jun 18, 2006, 03:05 AM
Cities that have a religion already can build Temples. This would allow the assignment of a priest, so with Library, Forge and Temple, these type of cities would generate 12 GPP/turn. Perhaps Memphis can do this after finishing Aquaduct.

I have no argument with ainwood's suggestions for Thebes, Memphis and St. Petersburg. Moscow - Growth yes, but I'd also like to see more Cottages being developed.

Heliopolis also needs a Missionary sent to it, and lots more Buildings, such as Harbor and Temple. (And more Cottages)

Elephantine - harbor ... currently would add 1 cpt; with Currency, possibly another cpt. And more health. Forge would add more Happiness, and shields. Really needs both. Perhaps Forest chops now?

Alexandria - Granary, then ... harbor is OK, so would be Library.

Persepolis - faster Lighthouse is good; allows faster growth afterwords.

Novgorod - definitely needs a lot of development, so a Forge soon followed by other buildings. Cottages as well.

Pi-Ramses - lots of building to do; suggest Forge for long term building benefit.

PaulK - I believe you are up! Phabuk is on deck.

(edit - crossposted with PaulK; he's 'got-it')

DaviddesJ
Jun 18, 2006, 10:01 AM
Thebes should switch from rice to mined, and from floodplains farm to mine. This gives us forge in 3 (currently 6) for the loss of one gold. It should then build an aquaduct (as there will be -1 health with the forge), and assign an engineer. Spreading judaism there should be a priority as well, as happiness is maxed-out.

You're consistently overestimating the value of hammers compared to food. One food is worth quite a bit more than one hammer; extra food can be converted to hammers by pop rushing. It's also not as if there is a big hurry to get the buildings. We're going to get +3 happiness in the city soon (forge, spices) so the missionary is not urgent either.

Memphis will finish an aquadust soon - then what? Not many options. Research? Has both forge & library, so could start working towards a GP?

Hanging Gardens, is what I suggested above.

Moscow should stay on missionaries, although I think we could work farms instead of cottages, and perhaps build another farm next to the lake - it still has a lot of growth potential.

You really don't gain by working farms for +1 food instead of the +3 gold (more or less) from cottages. If you work out how many extra tiles you get to work from the extra growth, it's less benefit than just working cottages right away. Assuming you do have some bonus food, which we do.

Heliopolis is about to grow. Then can start working mines, and finish forge faster. How many cities do we want to go for GP in? This already has 60 GP points, so I think we should try and get the forge ASAP. It still has whip unhappiness, but can finish the forge in four-five turns if hills are worked.

This was my plan, too: growth, then finish the forge. I already chopped the forest nearby to help, I think. It still has residual unhappiness, so pop rushing isn't so good here.

Alexandria - should finish granary, then harbour? Maybe chop the forest to help?

If we get granary and Colossus, then that will be the time to switch the citizen from the silver mine to a coast (-2 gpt in the short term, but more growth in the long term).

Persepolis - perhaps wait two turns to grow, then work mines for a few turns to speed lighthouse? Then maybe build its own workboats (travel time from novgorad is quite a few turns!)

Eventually we will need to work mines (at least, the iron mine), but the improved food resources, and probably the lake+lighthouse, are worth more for growth (especially if we get Colossus). There's one workboat en route, and another under construction, but it may want to build one, after Colossus. We can also chop remaining forests.

The MM of the cities is good but it's not as important as overall strategy, at this point. (E.g., managing research and trading, positioning ships for upgrades and exploration, probably building some explorers.)

ainwood
Jun 18, 2006, 03:24 PM
You're consistently overestimating the value of hammers compared to food. One food is worth quite a bit more than one hammer; extra food can be converted to hammers by pop rushing. It's also not as if there is a big hurry to get the buildings. We're going to get +3 happiness in the city soon (forge, spices) so the missionary is not urgent either.So what's the harm in getting the forge finished sooner c.f. letting the city grow (and spending a few turns unhappy?). The forge sooner gives the happiness bonus sooner, as well as letting us start on an engineer sooner. My suggestion was to get the forge, then go back to growth - I agree that growth is the most important factor. Judaism is still worthwhile, because the forge happiness only buys us a finite period of happiness.


You really don't gain by working farms for +1 food instead of the +3 gold (more or less) from cottages. If you work out how many extra tiles you get to work from the extra growth, it's less benefit than just working cottages right away. Assuming you do have some bonus food, which we do.
+2 food, if they're irrigated - which is why I suggested the one next to the lake. I spent quite a lot of time a few weeks back doing direct comparisons on whether it was better to grow the city before working cottages, or try to do both at the same time - the clear winner was growth. I even played around with discount factors (gold "now" being worth more than gold in the future), and growth was STILL the best option. I'm not suggesting pushing growth to sacrifice working the plantation or gems, but seeing as moscow is still well below the happiness and health caps, I think we should get it as big as possible, as fast as possible.

DaviddesJ
Jun 18, 2006, 09:40 PM
+2 food, if they're irrigated - which is why I suggested the one next to the lake.

I think you have some misunderstanding about how farms work. Except for food resources, the only tiles that can be farmed (without Biology) are "irrigated" tiles: i.e., those with access to fresh water, or, after Civil Service, those adjacent to other irrigated farms. The farm (with irrigation) adds +1 food to the tile. Just look at the farms we already have.

In a case like Moscow, where the city already has +7 food from the city center, rice, and cows (and soon will get another +2 from the sugar), you aren't going to get more commerce from working additional farms for growth than you will by working cottages. It's not a big difference though, certainly not something that's going to have a noticeable effect on our results. I do try to MM and shift from a cottage to farm when the +1 food will get us to the next growth step 1 turn sooner. But not because I think it's really important.

DaviddesJ
Jun 18, 2006, 09:57 PM
Heliopolis also needs a Missionary sent to it, and lots more Buildings, such as Harbor and Temple. (And more Cottages)

You can't have more of everything: they are mutually inconsistent. More buildings requires more hammers, which means we're working less food tiles, which means either slower growth or more farms instead of cottages.

The city was hurt by too much pop rushing many turns ago, and we're only coming out of that now. When we get back to being able to pop rush at reasonable cost (i.e., only 15 turns of unhappiness), we'll be able to add buildings rapidly.

In cities with Forge (for +25% production bonus), it's very beneficial to pop rush when the current project needs 45-56 hammers. Then you get +88 hammers for the cost of only 1 pop (bug). I didn't get to use this during my 10 turns, because I did hardly any pop rushing: we needed to grow. But it can be a big advantage over the next several turns.

ainwood
Jun 19, 2006, 03:03 AM
I think you have some misunderstanding about how farms work. Except for food resources, the only tiles that can be farmed (without Biology) are "irrigated" tiles: i.e., those with access to fresh water, or, after Civil Service, those adjacent to other irrigated farms. The farm (with irrigation) adds +1 food to the tile. Just look at the farms we already have.Sorry - of course, you're right. We need to build next to the lake, not because of irrigation, but because we can't build a farm away from it.

In a case like Moscow, where the city already has +7 food from the city center, rice, and cows (and soon will get another +2 from the sugar), you aren't going to get more commerce from working additional farms for growth than you will by working cottages.

I redid the numbers - and you're correct. I did quite an analysis a few weeks back, and found the exact opposite - although the analysis was for a city without a granary, and on "normal" as opposed to epic.

For me, this therefore suggests that the decision on growth then cottages; or cottages then growth is a "depends". I was going to write a strategy article on it, and now that I've done this further analysis, I think its worthwhile.

DaviddesJ
Jun 19, 2006, 09:34 PM
I'd like someone to do a small test for planning purposes:

1. What are the exact circumstances where one can upgrade a Galley to Caravel (I think it just has to be within cultural borders?).

2. Does having an Explorer-type unit on a Galley keep it from being upgraded to Caravel?

To maximize our exploration we want to have a couple of ships ready to be upgraded and go, at appropriate points along our coast. If they have Explorers on board, and they can be upgraded in that situation, then that will help us make additional contacts when we reach overseas lands (and/or, possibly claim huts, on uninhabited islands).

Paulk
Jun 19, 2006, 11:00 PM
I cant play anymore, ever. Im sorry.
Paulk

ainwood
Jun 19, 2006, 11:05 PM
My 0.02:

* For the workers, get more cottages built.
* As to which to work? Generally, go for the higher commerce, but it depends on whether the village / hamlet is on grassland or plains, and whether the city has a lighthouse.

DaviddesJ
Jun 20, 2006, 12:04 AM
I cant play anymore, ever. Im sorry.

Sorry to hear that. :( Phabuk, then?

Remaining people: anything we can do to make this more fun and less stressful for everyone? Would less discussion/analysis be better---just let everyone do their own thing??

DaviddesJ
Jun 20, 2006, 12:07 AM
P.S. I think working a 2f 1c cottage is generally better than a 2f 2c coast. In only a few turns, the cottage will improve to equal the coast, so you're sacrificing 15g (at most) for a long-term payoff of a higher output.

The tradeoff between a 2f 1c cottage and a 2f 3c coast (with Colossus) is less clear. My inclination at this point in the game would be the latter, figuring that commerce now is worth more than commerce later. And that we're not worried about the very long term (i.e., space race timeframe).

DaviddesJ
Jun 20, 2006, 12:12 AM
P.P.S. We're definitely at the point in the game where we have more workers than we really need. This often seems to happen. I was almost tempted to disband a couple, when I took my turns, but I resisted the impulse (perhaps wrongly). I just figured there wasn't that much money to be saved, and there are some advantages to having extra workers. I do miss the option (from Civ3) to join them to cities.

If we are feeling really generous, we could continue the Gandhi-fest by gifting some to him. The AI is less efficient than we are at development, and he could probably use more workers.

ainwood
Jun 20, 2006, 12:20 AM
I cant play anymore, ever. Im sorry.
Paulk
Sorry to hear that. :(

ainwood
Jun 20, 2006, 03:19 AM
I'd like someone to do a small test for planning purposes:

1. What are the exact circumstances where one can upgrade a Galley to Caravel (I think it just has to be within cultural borders?).

2. Does having an Explorer-type unit on a Galley keep it from being upgraded to Caravel?
Galleys upgrade to galleons or frigates - you can't upgrade them to caravels.

Looks like we need to hammer-rich coastal cities. :(

DaviddesJ
Jun 20, 2006, 03:33 AM
Galleys upgrade to galleons or frigates - you can't upgrade them to caravels.

Oh, that's right. Now I remember why this upgrade strategy didn't work the last time I tried it. :mad:

We should plan to pop-rush or chop-rush some caravels immediately after reaching Optics. (A few turns of delay probably doesn't make a huge difference, but every turn does count.)

Phabuk
Jun 20, 2006, 07:08 AM
ok i am ready to play. Sorry that Paulk won't play anymore...

To answer your question Daviddesj, I think it is a good thing to have discussion. I don't participate too much because I have not such a good experience of the game than many of you here, and not enough time to make my own tests and calculations... So I try to follow and learn strategies from your discussion: it's good for me and I thank you very much for that.

Now I think I will play within the next 36 hours, perhaps tonight if I find the time for that.

There have been a lot of posts recently and I need to sum up some ideas:

- our economy is better now but we must try to do best by working the cottages
- we must prepare a bunch of caravel with explorator to reach others civs. but in which direction? I will send to the north-west a big expedition, and another one to make a world tour.
-we must develop GP in thebae and memphis
-moscow must spread religion and grow
-trade with gandhi

what else ?

MailMan
Jun 20, 2006, 07:50 AM
I was out for only a few days and about 45 posts have appeared and only 1 turnset was played.

On that subject - I really think that discussion is very important for the team success.
However my native language is not English and therefore I do not like to read long posts. I prefer short and to-the-point posts (preferably using points - like previous post)

My thoughts:
- there is no real urge to take out Cyrus, he is too crippled now to cause any problems and we do not gain anything from capturing his land (or even gifting them to India).
- we need to send caravels ASAP. there is no point in waiting for explorers. I find them very unusual in most cases. If we produce an explorer from inland city in time - we can load it, but I would not aim for this.
- we should re-check all deals with India. I gave them our last crabs for calender happiness resource, we already has calender and we will probably need the health bonus.

DaviddesJ
Jun 20, 2006, 10:49 AM
I have trouble being brief, but I'll do my best. :blush:

Important points for the next 10 turns:

- Build Colossus in 2 turns: shift citizens after next turn, to make sure we have enough hammers in St Petersburg after growth.

- When we have Colossus, take advantage by working coast tiles where we have lighthouse (but not to neglect hamlets or villages, or where we don't have lighthouse).

- When Memphis builds Aquaduct, consider starting Hanging Gardens there.

- When Thebes and Heliopolis build Forge, consider adding engineer specialists to the existing 2 scientists in each city.

- When we have accumulated enough gold, raise research to 100% to finish researching Machinery. Want to have enough gold to fund economy for the remaining turns of research needed.

- If Cyrus researches any techs we don't have (unlikely), then trade one of our older techs for them.

- Current resource deals should be ok. I connected a second Crab resource during my turns, so no need to take back the one we gave to Gandhi. Finish building Spice plantation and connecting road. If Gandhi has a new resource for trade (e.g., Wine) then we can try to get that in exchange for one of the resources we're now giving for free.

- It's a long time still before we can build Caravels. When we do have the chance, the quickest way to discover new lands will probably be to sail east from Heliopolis. Building another to sail northwest from Elephantine, and maybe one to sail southeast from Novgorod or Pi-Ramesses, will also be worthwhile.

- Micromanagement of pop rushing is the most important development tool, but it's impossible to describe briefly all of the strategies involved. Generally, if a city has no unhappiness from past pop rushing, and it's at its current growth limit, and it has something useful to build, it's often a good idea to pop rush something. In cities with forge, it's an especially good idea to rush things that need 45-54 more hammers.

Phabuk
Jun 20, 2006, 06:25 PM
save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0350_01.Civ4SavedGame

pre turn: incensetopia --> mv citizen to spice

215 AD:
nothing much

230 AD:
- we've built colossus! --> lighthouse
- WC in Pi-Ramses for garrison
- MM of the cities to improve income (+70 GPT)

245 AD:
- memphis finish acqueduct --> gardens
- moscow finish misionnary --> misionnary
- we have a new gold source near elephantine
- plantation finished near moscow --> plantation north
- forest chopped in persepolis and incensetopia
- give sugar to gandhi
- poprush forge in elephantine

260 AD:
- lighthouse in incensetopia --> library
- imhotep is born in a foreign country
- forge in thebae --> acqueduct
- forge in elephantine --> harbour
- working boat in nov --> library
- +1 engineer in thebae, disease in thebae
- chop forest near moscow
- plantation in incensetopia
- research to 100% (machinery in 5 turns)
- judaism in St petersbourg

275 AD:
- nabu-rimanniis born in new delhi
- heliopolis (disease, +1 engineer) --> forge finished --> harbour
- forest chopped in thebae
- poprush acqueduct in thebae

290 AD:
- granary in alexandrie --> axeman, change cit for growth
- lighthouse in persepolis --> library
- acqueduct in thebae --> explorator
- taoism founded in jaipur
- novgorod extends
- forest chopped in piramses

305 AD:
- lighthouse in St peter --> harbour
- nothing much

320 AD:
- missionary in moscow --> missionary

335 AD:
- we have machinery --> optics
- research to 0% (+84 GPT)
- capac gets hereditary rules
- trade machinery with gandhi against currency and monarchy
- +100 gpt

350 AD:
- harbour in piramses --> library
- poprush harbour in heliopolis
- change for market in thebae


I didn't optimize goods trade with gandhi, perhaps we can earn money... we also must think about revolt to monarchy and organized religion.

DaviddesJ
Jun 20, 2006, 07:23 PM
Changing to Hereditary Rule should be automatic: it costs us nothing (over Despotism) and gets us at least +1 happiness everywhere. We have avoided Organized Religion so far, because it gives us bonus hammers but costs us commerce. We could reconsider that, as our economy grows.

DaviddesJ
Jun 20, 2006, 08:51 PM
We need to send a worker to build a road to our new gold source!

We've got so much happiness now, health is more of a constraint almost everywhere. We should be cautious about chopping forests; i.e., only where there's a real benefit.

I see that Huayna Capac has Optics. We should hurry with maximum speed to make contacts. It looks like we can get Optics ourselves in about 6 turns.

civ_steve
Jun 21, 2006, 12:10 AM
I'm out of town on travel for my company; I'll be back in 24 hours and can play in 36, so I'll post a 'got-it'.

Getting caught up - very sorry to hear that you can't play anymore, PaulK! Please let me know if there was anything I or the Team could have done to facilitate your continued involvement; I would appreciate the information. Otherwise, it's very understandable if RL doesn't allow the time to participate.

Regarding discussions - they are very welcome, IMO! I appreciate the information (still learning). They could be more concise (ala MailMan, and Phabuk as well, I'm sure), but that is tough to keep in mind and be as precise as possible. Please keep the discussion coming!

OK, need Optics ASAP, keep the GPP's accumulating, get ready to build Caravels from scratch (possible chop or pop-rush), connect Gold, Hereditary Rule, continue to develop empire.

Do we need some Crossbows soon to counter HC and his possible Macemen. Perhaps not; he would still need Astronomy to reach us. We also want Explorers on our Caravels, I assume?

MailMan
Jun 21, 2006, 01:26 AM
- we have a new gold source near elephantine
+2 happiness and extra commerce !!! that's a great news.

trade machinery with gandhi against currency and monarchy
more great news.

I haven't looked at the save, but it seems that we should be able to assimilate more cities into our empire.

we should check each turn for Gandhi's spare gold. I am sure that we will make better use of it than him.

Phabuk
Jun 21, 2006, 03:31 AM
I thought that there was already a road to the gold... and I didn't revolt to monarchy to avoid the turn lap (I didn't pay attention to the fact that we are spiritual, sorry about that!)

Since our economy is quite good now, i think we should go to organized religion and to monarchy.

DaviddesJ
Jun 21, 2006, 10:16 AM
Organized Religion costs us 8 gpt (I think) and only benefits 4 cities (for now). It's borderline and I don't have a strong opinion either way. It does help us spread Judaism more.

We could expand but it's not clear where. Taking Cyrus's inland city may make sense soon. The marble city will be an economic drag in all likelihood. I'll look more closely at that. There's a decent city site west of Moscow which we might settle on soon. And also east of Memphis.

Realistically, we aren't going to gain much from expansion. We have enough economy now to conquer the world, I think, if we can get tech parity (or perhaps a slight advantage) on Huayna Capac.

We don't need any defensive troops, imho. HC is probably some ways from Astronomy, and if he does get it we should still be able to see him coming. Obviously, it helps to find out where he is (and to get the circumnavigation bonus if we can, which is a reason to send ships both east and west). I like putting Explorers on the Caravels, myself, but it's really only a minor issue and not a high priority.

civ_steve
Jun 21, 2006, 05:22 PM
My trip has been extended a day; I'll be returning Thursday night and can play Friday morning, California time. Or, if ainwood wishes to take it, I'll switch with him. (If he doesn't post I'll play Friday morning.)

DaviddesJ
Jun 21, 2006, 05:24 PM
we should check each turn for Gandhi's spare gold. I am sure that we will make better use of it than him.

How are we going to get him to give us his gold?

ainwood
Jun 21, 2006, 08:53 PM
My trip has been extended a day; I'll be returning Thursday night and can play Friday morning, California time. Or, if ainwood wishes to take it, I'll switch with him. (If he doesn't post I'll play Friday morning.)
You go for it - we can wait a day. :)

DaviddesJ
Jun 21, 2006, 11:25 PM
I'd vote for more swaps if we could play faster.

ainwood
Jun 21, 2006, 11:43 PM
I'd vote for more swaps if we could play faster.
Actually - friday morning is saturday morning our time.... I guess I can go now.

ANy last-minute instructions?

DaviddesJ
Jun 21, 2006, 11:50 PM
ANy last-minute instructions?

You'll have to decide what to research after Optics. (Even though your research rate will be 0%, it's still important because we'll accrue beakers from specialists.) My suggestions are either Feudalism (on the path to Guilds), or Astronomy (because we know we'll need points in the latter eventually, in addition to a GS). I'd suggest Astronomy just because it seems like there's a good chance that Gandhi will research Feudalism for us (or maybe someone else we contact will have it).

Key point, again, is to get some Caravels out soon after Optics. Pop rushing in a single turn is too expensive (you pay double if you have no production in the project yet), but building for one turn and then pop rushing may be viable in some cases. We have so much extra happiness now that health is more of a constraint, still, I don't like to overdo the pop rushing. As mentioned before, in cities with forge it works especially well to pop rush when you need 45-54 beakers (i.e., for a Caravel when it reaches at least 36/90 and no more than 45/90): in that range you pay 1 pop and get 88 hammers.

Another thing you might want to do is create a couple of task groups of galleys to destroy Huayna Capac's caravels if they show up off our coasts. It might take as many as 3 galleys to kill a caravel?

ainwood
Jun 22, 2006, 01:11 AM
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0500_01.Civ4SavedGame

Ok - Aim is to get optics ASAP, then chop-rush some caravels.

We have 174 gold.
If we put research at 50%, we get optics in 6, at -12GPT (net -72)
At 60%, we get it in 6 at -34 GPT (net -204)

If we wait 1 turn, we get +102 gold, giving total of 276.
We can then research optics in 5 turns (6 overall) at -57 GPT.

In summary - this shows that our beaker-multipliers are better than gold multipliers - delaying does no good. Set to research optics in 6 at -34 GPT, and hope to pick-up a turn with extra growth etc.

I revolt to hereditory rule.
MM memphis to get HG in two.
I also halt forest chop near novgorod => will use it for caravel instead.
I then realise I can sell Cyrus monotheism for 110 gold. This allows optics in 5.

Turn 1:
Heliopolis Harbour=>explorer. Work mines to get explorer in 5.
Spread judaism in elephantine.

Turn2:
Thebes explorer => explorer.
Memphis HG in one, so move back to work cottage. Optics in 3.

Turn3:
Cyrus cancels open borders.
Complete HG. Start market.
Moscow => Missionary => missionary.
Fishing boat reaches fish near persepolis.

Turn 4:
OPtics in one, so I back-off research to make a profit.
Gold is hooked-up.

Turn 5.
Finish optics. Start astronomy, but back-off research to zero (+88 GPT)
Elephantine harbour => caravel (6)
Novgorod: Switch to caravel, and max-out hammers (6 turns, but will get a couple of chops)
Ditto pi-ramesses.

Turn 6:
St. Petersburg Harbour =< Caravel
Helipolis: Explorer => caravel (but food biased. Still unhappy, but how long can that last?)
Get literature & drama +70 gold for optics from gandhi. He won't give-up hbr.

Turn 7:
Moscow Missionary=> missionary.
Chops completed in pi-ramesses (caravel in one) and novgorod (also in one)

Turn 8:
Persepolis library => harbour.
Pi-Ram caravel => library.
Novgorod => caravel => caravel (chop means we get it in 3)
Chop completes in elephantine - caravel next turn.

Turn 9:
Elephantine caraval =>caravel.
Incensetopia library => harbour.
Start market in thebes. Should we build the national epic & heroic epic somewhere?

turn 10
Pop-rush caravel in elephantine.
Land sighted! Looks uninhabited, although it unfortunate that it was found by a caravel without an explorer.
We can pop-rush another caravel in helopolis - although the old happiness hasn't subsided, it is still fairly happy!
Changed moscow back to explorer - should not have start market, or could have rushed an explorer to sail on the boat from heliopolis.
Caravel in St. Petersburg will finish next turn as well.

Gandhi has fuedalism & philosphy. We could research code of laws in two turns @ 100%, and give ourselves a trading option - plus get some courthouses built.

DaviddesJ
Jun 22, 2006, 01:32 AM
Sounds pretty good---I'll try to load the save up tomorrow and send more comments. I think it might have been better not to trade Optics: we could delay Gandhi's contacts, which might be more important than getting a couple of minor techs (Drama isn't doing anything for us, and Literature not much). Meeting other civs before he does could be quite important.

Code of Laws might make sense---I would certainly like to build courthouses---but Gandhi isn't going to give us Feudalism or Philosophy for that, because it's too cheap. I guess he might give us some spare gold. If we can find someone else in a few turns, we might be able to just trade for it. We also want to have a gold reserve as when we meet someone we may want to spend gold to buy a tech to then resell.
Still the cost is low enough that it seems very reasonable to just do it ourselves, at this point.

For pop rushing, you can see how long the current unhappiness will last by hovering over the poprush button. If it says "+1 unhappy for 30 turns", that means the current unhappiness will expire in 15 turns (subtract 15). It also means you're buying "twice as much" unhappiness as if you wait.

We don't want to get too carried away with building caravels: I think you may have too many going now. They cost money to maintain and once we've found the remaining civs they aren't worth much.

It's impressive to see on the status page that we're staying well ahead of all other teams in our score. They may well have significant advantages that aren't well reflected in score, though.

DaviddesJ
Jun 22, 2006, 02:42 AM
I browsed through the current save. Mostly looks pretty good. I saw several places where cities should be placing a higher priority on food, rather than commerce or hammers. I'd also wish that we had at least one more city generating GPP: after our 3rd GP, it looks like it's going to be a long time to a 4th one. Since we have Literature now, we should also think about the best place for Heroic Epic, as part of our GP strategy.

Going to 100% research for COL in two turns looks reasonable to me. I definitely think we have enough caravels in production (probably too many), so everyone should shift back to other stuff when these are done. (They may be useful for patrolling/fighting HC at sea, though.) Also, perhaps we overdid the chopping a little as some cities lost useful health points.

MailMan
Jun 22, 2006, 03:05 AM
Re techs: code of laws in 2 sounds great. we have a wide empire, we should whip some courts in the outskirts. for example a whipped court in Cyrus old capital will give us 6-8 gpt.

Re caravels: I agree with DaviddesJ - we do not need many of those. we need approx 3. their usage is very limited to finding other civs and aim for the circumvent bonus. once its done, they should be returned home for some minor defense against future galleons.

Re score: score is not so important in this game as the tech speed IMHO. we have nice score due to taking out Cyrus and Cathi, but we can not compare out tech rate to other teams to see who got astronomy first.

BSmith1068
Jun 22, 2006, 08:42 AM
Sorry for the intrusion, but how about some screen shots for us poor lurkers? It has been a little while!

Good luck, and I am enjoying watching your progress. :goodjob:

DaviddesJ
Jun 22, 2006, 10:58 AM
Here are some current screenshots. (P.S. You know, you can load the save file yourself?)

BSmith1068
Jun 22, 2006, 11:11 AM
Thanks!

I know I can load the files, but most of my lurking occurs when I am at work, where I don't/can't have the game!:cry:

ainwood
Jun 22, 2006, 03:43 PM
The other benefit from code of laws is that it allows caste system.

Yeah - maybe we have too many caravels, but I figured that three going east and three west might be good: one high, one equatorial and one low. Given that this is a non-standard map, land masses might be more difficult to find. I also suggest that one caravel should concentrate solely on circumnavigating the globe.

Sorry about trading optics. I figured that literature would help with the GPPs, although couldn't decide on where (or when) to build the national epic. I also feel that getting gandhi to replicate research is a bit wasteful. Granted that if we can get CoL in two turns, we could probably get literature in one. :ack:

DaviddesJ
Jun 22, 2006, 04:31 PM
Personally, I think staying in Slavery is better than switching to Caste System. If we are sufficiently motivated, we can switch back and forth, but that's really a big hassle (trying to switch to Slavery and schedule pop rushing in the next 5 turns, then switch back to Caste System and assign more specialists for 5 turns, and repeat). It's not clear that our specialist cities can sensibly have significantly more than 4 specialists (which we can get from library, forge, temple).

You don't need to literally circumnavigate with a single caravel to get the movement bonus. Just send one east and another west until they reach the same longitude from opposite directions.

No need to apologize for trading Optics. It's very true that Gandhi might have researched it himself, and we'd rather have him do something else. The cost is also hypothetical (but it's true that he's likely to meet people to his west before we can). I would perhaps have waited a few turns to try to get Feudalism for Optics instead. But that could easily backfire (I don't know much about predicting what the AI will research).

ainwood
Jun 22, 2006, 04:40 PM
You don't need to literally circumnavigate with a single caravel to get the movement bonus. Just send one east and another west until they reach the same longitude from opposite directions.
Or in our case, its probably easier for the one sailing east to keep going until it sights gandhi's lands that we've explored. Others can stop and map the coastline of anything its finds.

DaviddesJ
Jun 22, 2006, 09:32 PM
Re score: score is not so important in this game as the tech speed IMHO. we have nice score due to taking out Cyrus and Cathi, but we can not compare out tech rate to other teams to see who got astronomy first.

Of course, it's not just a race to Astronomy, especially because Huayna Capac is so advanced. And we are certainly well placed to churn out lots of military units for conquest, even if our tech rate isn't faster.

I'm surprised by how few postings there are in the spoiler thread (only 4) (I assume it's not "cheating" to look at the SGOTM forum index page!). Many teams have played many more turns than us; have they still not reached Optics, or have they chosen not to post in the spoiler thread, or is there some other obstacle we don't know about (e.g., land barriers that will make it hard for our caravels actually to reach all remaining civs)? Probably, much will become clear in the next 10 turns.

DaviddesJ
Jun 22, 2006, 10:33 PM
there is no real urge to take out Cyrus, he is too crippled now to cause any problems and we do not gain anything from capturing his land (or even gifting them to India).

If we capture Cyrus's cities and give them to India, then Gandhi will gain a second source of Marble and Wheat, and we can probably get both of those from him in trade (in exchange for resources that we're now giving him for free). So that's a significant benefit. Plus we speed Gandhi's research, which is probably a net plus for us (although it's not entirely clear).

I agree that we don't want the cities ourselves. Pasargadae and Phoenician look superficially attractive, but, if we do capture them, their cultural boundaries will be squeezed by India to the point that they really won't be good for us at all. And Gordium is good for nothing but Marble.

But there's a real case for attacking Cyrus in order to give the cities to India.

civ_steve
Jun 23, 2006, 10:47 AM
Great Progress! and the game is definitely entering an exciting phase! I've got the save, and here's the general points to pursue that I see:

- Research Code of Laws, sounds good; courthouses will help, and possible trade opportunities.
- explore and make contacts; also, find HC; might want more Caravels to fend off possible raiding parties.
- take out Cyrus' cities and gift to Gandhi, very nice idea especially where he gets a 2nd resource to trade to us. Sounds like more commitment to Permanent Alliance, which should be OK.
- National Wonders; HE where we have good production and Barracks; NE perhaps, where we have a World Wonder (for more GPP); maybe determine a Wonder city.
- further research, doing pretty good; I'm thinking more and more that we'll need Cavalry more than Knights to finish this; if this sounds good, we should research in this direction; leave Music to the AI, need Philosophy or Divine Right plus Civil Service to get to Nationalism, and then we can learn Military Tradition. Meanwhile Great Scientists can help us with Astronomy, Paper, Printing Press and Scientific Method, we should get help towards 2, maybe 3 of these.

DaviddesJ
Jun 23, 2006, 11:02 AM
I would think the National Epic should go in Heliopolis or Persepolis. (I can make a reasonable argument either way.) Increasing the GPP from a city that can feed lots of specialists seems more important than increasing the small number of GP from a wonder.

Gandhi already has Music so we definitely shouldn't research that. After COL, I assume you will just switch back to Astronomy at 0%, for now, while we wait to see what the other AIs have and will trade. I see no reason to actually finish Astronomy until we're ready to launch an attack. (It gets us some trade opportunities but also obsoletes our Colossus.) But putting some points into it is fine.

DaviddesJ
Jun 23, 2006, 11:26 AM
We could build the Forbidden Palace in Persepolis, which would save us some gold in the short term. But I think this is a bad idea; it's better to save it to build overseas once we start conquering new continents.

ainwood
Jun 23, 2006, 04:36 PM
We could build the Forbidden Palace in Persepolis, which would save us some gold in the short term. But I think this is a bad idea; it's better to save it to build overseas once we start conquering new continents.
I agree. Once we start our main offensive, we'll probably put research at 0%, and just try to keep total gold +ve through capturing cities.

civ_steve
Jun 23, 2006, 08:00 PM
OK. I've played 4 turns and need to do some consulting. (In fact, I changed a major consensus point once I had gotten into the game, and this has some significant effects, good and not so good. More about that shortly).

I decided to restart the War against Cyrus. Declared, and moved Swordsmen on Gordium, the Marble city. It's been captured, roads are being built to connect Marble, and a couple of Archers from Cyrus have been fended off. However, he's got 7 Archers defending Pasargadae, which is a bit much with our current forces in play; I'm planning to get India in the war with us, and between the 2 of us Cyrus should be finished. Or I can build a few more Swords, ship them over, and do the job ourselves, but I think that would take longer.

With Marble, both HE and NE are speeded up. I was thinking, and have started HE in Memphis; it has plenty of shields and would make a great city to produce 8XP units from (or 10 if we choose another civic that gives us the extra XP). I agree that Persepolis would be a great GPP farm, and plan to start NE there shortly unless there's vehement disagreement. Rather than figuring out a trade with Gandhi, I plan to keep Marble to complete these 2 Wonders, then gift him the city.

HC has sent a Caravel our way - we greeted him with a few of our own and that was that.

We now have contact with the Arabs and with the Americans, both are located to the SE. Traded MetalCasting and Calendar to Saladin for Construction and HorsebackRiding. He has Feudalism, also wont trade it. Neither Saladin nor FDR have Alphabet, so they are both somewhat behind in Tech. Saladin is pleased with us and HC; FDR is cautious towards both.

Now the point of departure. For trading value, I changed the next Tech to Theology, 4 turns - half again the value of Code of Laws and I thought we might have a chance to trade for CoL with new contacts if they were following HC's lead. CoL and Theo should gain us Feudalism from Gandhi at least. (In retrospect, I should have delayed that decision and the research until the contacts were made to see if this type of a trade would be available.)

So Gandhi is almost interested in the trade (Theo for Feud), and some more Gold would probably seal the deal. Feudalism would allow us to research Guilds next, if Knights are the unit we want (vs Cavalry later, or Macemen). Right now I'm not too impressed with the Arabs or the Americans, and am thinking that Knights would probably do the job against them. For Cavalry we would need Guilds and Gunpowder anyway, so I'm thinking save Gold, trade for Feudalism and set up to research Guilds next.

However, researching Theology has changed the order of Techs the GS's will give us. Paper and Printing Press (possibly Education as well) will be benefitted by GS before Astronomy gains a GS benefit. This is OK if Permanent Alliance is our goal; these Techs help us on that path, and preserve the Colossus' benefit in the meantime. However, if we think we can gain the land requirement with Knights, then not getting the GS help earlier in learning Astronomy will slow us down some. Setting up GPP factory in Persepolis will alleviate some of this, possibly (I figured at least 7 Scientists with NE and Caste System, eventually, is 40+ GPP/turn so this is a good city to set this up for).

One other option we can do: trade, or gift, Alphabet to Saladin. This may free up Feudalism from him to be available for trade, and we have Machinery and other Techs to trade for it (save some gold from Gandhi). Also, if Saladin then trades with HC, we might get Code of Laws this way as well (we will want Caste System for Persepolis). Drawback is that these AI's are strengthened and may make it more difficult to use Knights for domination if that is our choice and is available to us.

I've just located HC's culture, so the next few turns will tell us how well he is defended.

So. looking for some feedback or ideas on these subjects: 1.) plans to build HE in Memphis (this is well located to build units for HC combat, who is to our ENE) and NE in Persepolis. 2.) war with Cyrus - get Gandhi allied or do it ourselves. 3.) research from here, a couple of paths:

3a) acquire Gold, to trade Theo and Gold to Gandhi for Feudalism - learn CoL next, then start on Guilds for Knights (and Grocer)

3b) Gift Alphabet to Saladin, look for trade with existing Techs for his Feudalism (if he changes his mind about trading it), start on Code of Laws in meantime or save money

I think Persepolis will be ready to be GPP farm before we can learn Guilds, so I'm thinking we should pursue CoL next; only question is how to obtain Feudalism, and I'm leaning towards 3a, primarily to keep Arabs, Americans and Incans further behind.

We get a GS on turn 9 from Heliopolis; do GS get a certain number of research points that apply to the appropriate Tech on the list then cascade to the next if they exceed the amount required, or are they done once the Tech is learned? If no cascade, we might want to store GS's to help us with the expensive Techs, and learn the cheaper ones (like Paper) first by our research. After Guilds, though.

DaviddesJ
Jun 23, 2006, 08:55 PM
However, he's got 7 Archers defending Pasargadae, which is a bit much with our current forces in play

I could have told you that. You can easily conquer Cyrus with a few catapults to reduce his defenses, right? I would have built those first, and moved them up, and only then attacked.

I'm planning to get India in the war with us, and between the 2 of us Cyrus should be finished.

I don't think you can get Gandhi to attack Cyrus. They are relatively friendly.

Rather than figuring out a trade with Gandhi, I plan to keep Marble to complete these 2 Wonders, then gift him the city.

I think we can probably save 15 gpt by just giving the city to Gandhi and then trading for the marble. We're giving him two resources for nothing, right now; we can just cancel those deals and trade him the resources instead. But I guess I'm not 100% certain; it might not work for some reason. Actually, he may have developed his own source of one of the resources we're sending him, in which case he won't give us anything for it now.

However, researching Theology has changed the order of Techs the GS's will give us.

Yeah, this was a bad idea. Theology does almost nothing for us and seriously screws up our research path. :confused:

We already had Philosophy outranking Astronomy, but I figured we could get that somehow. Now we have to get Paper and Education and Printing Press! It's cheaper to just research Astronomy directly.

One other option we can do: trade, or gift, Alphabet to Saladin. This may free up Feudalism from him to be available for trade, and we have Machinery and other Techs to trade for it (save some gold from Gandhi). Also, if Saladin then trades with HC, we might get Code of Laws this way as well (we will want Caste System for Persepolis). Drawback is that these AI's are strengthened and may make it more difficult to use Knights for domination if that is our choice and is available to us.

We definitely don't want to help them! The idea is that we should gain by arbitrage (trading certain techs that they could also get from some other AI), but not speed them up if we can help that. And Alphabet is absolutely the worst thing to give because it takes away our trading advantage (they can then just trade back and forth more easily and cut us out---it makes them much more efficient researchers, as a group).

Especially since it's going to be way longer before we can attack them now, it becomes more important to keep them relatively backward. And you have no assurance that making a gift will get him to trade more with you, anyway.

3a) acquire Gold, to trade Theo and Gold to Gandhi for Feudalism - learn CoL next, then start on Guilds for Knights (and Grocer)

What good are knights without Astronomy? There's no hurry to get Feudalism now. I also (as posted earlier) dislike the idea of switching to Caste System for GP production: Slavery is so powerful (if used well), especially when you have high happiness levels (which we do).

Realistically, we have two choices now. One is to assume that we aren't going to attack overseas until we get Cavalry. In that case, we might as well head toward Cavalry now, and then get Astronomy relatively late (in order to keep the Colossus as long as possible). An idea might be to research toward Military Tradition, which will get us a Defensive Pact with Gandhi (I've heard that getting an early DP is a good way to get PA later), and will enable Cavalry when we can trade for the other stuff we need.

The other approach is to research Astronomy the hard way (no GP boost), and hope that Gandhi gets Guilds in the meantime, and we can trade with him, and still build our knight army on a reasonable schedule.

I don't know which of these is best. Neither of them makes Feudalism or Guilds, now, a priority. I don't like either as much as if we could use the GS for Astronomy and go on a knight rush.

We do want COL soon, in either case, because we still would greatly benefit from courthouses.

We get a GS on turn 9 from Heliopolis; do GS get a certain number of research points that apply to the appropriate Tech on the list then cascade to the next if they exceed the amount required, or are they done once the Tech is learned?

You just get the tech. E.g., we used a GS to discover Compass; there was no "carryover".

ainwood
Jun 23, 2006, 10:57 PM
Do we really want to attack with knights? Personally, I think knights are fine if you're either prepared to take high losses, or your opponents don't have longbows.

If they have longbows, then my preference would actually be macemen. Give them city raider, and they're as good as knights with the first promotion, and better with 2 or more. Secondly, because the attack stack moves at 1/turn, you can stack 4 catapults with them, and bombard-attack to take cities much more easily (you can do that with knights too, but the speed bonus is negated). I would actually suggest maces + cats for taking cities, with a few knights for pillaging, cleaning-up & cutting resources.

BTW - if we're going to do a lot of self-research, then we may want to consider an academy.

DaviddesJ
Jun 23, 2006, 11:16 PM
If they have longbows, then my preference would actually be macemen. Give them city raider, and they're as good as knights with the first promotion, and better with 2 or more.

I don't think so!

Maceman(CR1,CR2) vs Longbowman(CG1): 8 vs 6*(1+0.45-0.45) = 1.33
Knight(C1,C2) vs Longbowman(CG1): 10*(1+0.2) vs 6*(1+0.45) = 1.38

The Knight with 2 promotions is better than the Maceman with 2 promotions. It also doesn't suffer a first strike.

Put the target city on a hill, and the Knight is much better:

Maceman(CR1,CR2) vs Longbowman(CG1): 8 vs 6*(1+0.45-0.45+0.5) = 0.89
Knight(C1,C2) vs Longbowman(CG1): 10*(1+0.2) vs 6*(1+0.45+0.5) = 1.03

Secondly, because the attack stack moves at 1/turn, you can stack 4 catapults with them, and bombard-attack to take cities much more easily (you can do that with knights too, but the speed bonus is negated).

You don't need or want to move them together. You want to send a few catapults ahead, and spend a few turns bombarding, then bring up the assault troops when the defenses are down to zero. Then the catapults can keep moving toward the next city, while the assault troops need to rest. Matching speeds has no particular benefit. The higher speed of the knights means you can dash them around to whichever city is next to fall. You definitely can accomplish the same amount of conquest with fewer units this way, because they spend less time en route.

You may need a melee defender to stack with the catapults, but, you don't need very much defense because we're going to be a lot stronger and getting the AI to expend its units attacking out generally just helps us. Especially if you have knights, because you only have to be within a range of 2 spaces in order to be able to counterattack if he does attack out.

ainwood
Jun 23, 2006, 11:38 PM
:ack: - sorry - I'm used to playing as aggressive civs (in which case free combat1 + CR1 + CR2 is better than Combat1 + Combat2, especially when macemen cost less). But you're right about the hills.

DaviddesJ
Jun 23, 2006, 11:46 PM
BTW - if we're going to do a lot of self-research, then we may want to consider an academy.

If we can get an expensive tech that we want, I think that's going to be significantly better. I'm not sure what the maximum beakers we can get from using a GP for a tech is, at this difficulty level, map size, and speed, but I think it's between 2000 and 3000. If we're running at 50% science, on average, an academy might be worth 20 beakers per turn? That means it takes over 100 turns just to break even. Way too long, compared to getting an immediate benefit (and trading for other stuff we can use---one advantage of getting a tech by GP discovery is we can guarantee we don't invest beakers in something that Gandhi might discover before we're done). The game might be over in less than 100 turns from now.

ainwood
Jun 24, 2006, 12:34 AM
If we can get an expensive tech that we want, I think that's going to be significantly better. I'm not sure what the maximum beakers we can get from using a GP for a tech is, at this difficulty level, map size, and speed, but I think it's between 2000 and 3000. If we're running at 50% science, on average, an academy might be worth 20 beakers per turn? That means it takes over 100 turns just to break even. Way too long, compared to getting an immediate benefit (and trading for other stuff we can use---one advantage of getting a tech by GP discovery is we can guarantee we don't invest beakers in something that Gandhi might discover before we're done). The game might be over in less than 100 turns from now.
Firstly, if the next GS won't give us astronomy, then purely to get astronomy, the academy may help us get there faster - and isn't that our next major goal?

The academy bonus is worked-out on top of (base-commerce * research rate), so you get a greater benefit out of it from it at higher research rates - 50% average doesn't give the true picture, because whilst it may be 20 bpt at 50%, it can be 30 bpt at 100%. It doesn't invalidate your point, but I think the decision on an academy (or not) is best framed by how we're going to research and run our civics. Eg. Bureacracy vs vassalage? Will we ever bother with printing press? Will we research by stop-start, or will we go slow-and-steady? Also - how are we going to get any intermediate techs? We can't get everything with GSs, and on current specialists, we'll get the odd GE. Caste system would help here (especially if coupled with the national epic), although self-research of these would probably be preferred, because we don't realy want to increment the GP counter with artists & prophets (although a great merchant can effectively be used as a GS over a few turns!)

DaviddesJ
Jun 24, 2006, 12:59 AM
Firstly, if the next GS won't give us astronomy, then purely to get astronomy, the academy may help us get there faster - and isn't that our next major goal?

It's almost as fast to get to Astronomy by researching Paper, using a GS for Education, and then researching Liberalism and taking Astronomy as our free tech. And then we get a bunch of other useful techs, too. (Including stuff that we can trade away for techs we need, without having to give away Astronomy. If we aren't going to depend on PA then we would rather that Gandhi not have Astronomy so he doesn't start colonizing overseas.)

Actually, I like this plan quite a bit. Using the GS for Education, we might be able to get both Liberalism (for the free tech) and Economics (for the free Great Merchant) first. And it's all on the route to Communism for the PA. Note that, with a PA, we might be able to achieve domination without ever defeating Huayna Capac, but just the other two wimps.

Doing the direct research plan, I don't think an Academy speeds Astronomy by more than a few turns.

As noted in my previous post, the other possibility is to head for Military Tradition, for cavalry and defensive alliance, and only then get Astronomy. In that case, getting Astronomy soon isn't the most important thing, and the question is what's the best way to use the GS to advance on that research path. We can also very reasonably just save up GS's for Printing Press and Scientific Method, which are on the route to Communism, which may end up being the limiting factor in how fast we can win.

The academy bonus is worked-out on top of (base-commerce * research rate), so you get a greater benefit out of it from it at higher research rates - 50% average doesn't give the true picture, because whilst it may be 20 bpt at 50%, it can be 30 bpt at 100%.

It's only the average research rate that matters. If you run every turn at 50% and get 20 bpt, or you run half the time at 100% and get 30 bpt and the other half the time at 0% and get 10 bpt (from specialists, that assumes 7 scientists which is a lot), then it comes out to the same 20 bpt on average. This is a mathematical principle called "linearity".

civ_steve
Jun 24, 2006, 01:35 AM
Theology was a radical departure and even though I wanted to get the turn going because it had been a while, I should have brought it up for discussion first. If we are going for a later attack (Cavalry) and want the Permanent Alliance (Communism), then Astronomy can be delayed and doing this helps us out two ways - 1.) we're not trying to learn a lot of advanced Techs while paying tons of city maintenance for far off cities; 2.) we retain the Colossus benefit for much longer.

(I was just checking the game, and coming back to the thread, it looks like delaying Astronomy is catching on.)

I can get CoL in 4 turns, and see if Gandhi will trade Feud for CoL and Theo. Philosophy would be nice also, but is not currently available for trade. Neither is a declaration on Cyrus. After CoL I will save Cash; Civil Service would be a good Tech to go for next, perhaps we can get a trade for Philosophy and it is a prerequisite for Nationalism, leading to MilTrad. (We will also need Music). I will save the GS for future use; I think we self-research Paper (1345 beakers) to get full benefit from our future GS's.

We didn't have Construction, so no ability to build Catapults, before I declared on Cyrus. Since NE and HE both benefit from Marble, it would seem somewhat advantageous to start the war sooner than later. Now that we have Catapults, I can add them to the mix. I'm off to finish the set.

ainwood
Jun 24, 2006, 03:14 AM
It's only the average research rate that matters. If you run every turn at 50% and get 20 bpt, or you run half the time at 100% and get 30 bpt and the other half the time at 0% and get 10 bpt (from specialists, that assumes 7 scientists which is a lot), then it comes out to the same 20 bpt on average. This is a mathematical principle called "linearity".

Yeah - I kow about linearity - but the overall economic model isn't linear. Until we get as many markets as we have libraries (for example), then the research multipliers favour the 100% : 0% model. An academy exacerbates this effect.

But that said, it is minor....

civ_steve
Jun 24, 2006, 03:30 AM
OK, here is the general turn log:

Turn 0 - 0500 AD
Decide to research Theology in 4 - gains us more Trade benefit (still not enough for Feudalism) but will also get us a free Paper when our next GS is formed (hopefully a GS) in 9 turns. Also, taking chance that other AI will follow HC's path to Code of Laws getting us a trade for it.

Declare war on Cyrus, and start sending Swordsmen his way

(IBT a Caravel of HC approaches off of Heliopolis; we will need to defend our Sea based resources or he will pillage them
an archer from Cyrus approaches Persepolis
List of most Powerful - We are #1, Gandhi is #2, and HC is #4; maybe Guilds would be sufficient)

Turn 1 - 0515 AD
Memphis finishes Market - next WC
Elephantine finishes Caravel - next Market
Caravels at St Petes (Market) and Novgorod (Library - pop rush the library, it had hammers already)

Stack of Swords can now see Gordium - 2 Archers and a Worker
7 Archers are visible at Pasargadae

Hate to do it, but pop-rush a Caravel at Helipolis to repel the HC Caravel

(IBT HC Caravel heads along our SE coast
Cyrus Archer moves onto Iron hills near Persep)

Turn 2 - 0530 AD

Memphis finishes WC - starts on Heroic Epic (seems a good location)
Novgorod finishes Library, starts on Harbor (health seems the closest limit)
Heliopolis finishes Caravel (MP duty on a resource for now) - starts on another

An experienced WC does in Cyrus' Archer on our Iron
Lose 1 Sword, but capture Gordium
Move Worker to connect Marble once Gordium is subdued - 2nd WC from Persepolis provides cover

Discover another chunk of land - a 1 tile Hill, in the Ocean to the SE, and tundra to the NW

(IBT nothing much; HC Caravel moves along coast)

Turn 3 - 0545 AD

With 2 Caravels able to attack, and a 3rd 1 turn away, I attack and sink HC's Caravel (no losses)
Swords heal near Gordium; Workers start on road

Contact! to SE, with Saladin
We sign Open Borders
We trade Calendar and Metal Casting for Construction and HorsebackRiding
We are still up Alphabet (and Machinery, etc), so Saladin looks to be fairly backwards

(IBT another Persian Archer advances towards sure death; still has 7 defenders, though)

Turn 4 - 0560 AD

We learn Theology; Gandhi has Construction now so no trade of Theo and Const for Feud
Start on CoL, in 4
Saladin has Feud also, but its not available (we have plenty to trade for it!)

Find Americans (just South of Saladin)
We sign Open Borders, but he is even further behind than Saladin. No help for Code of Laws.
We are approaching an Orange Border to the NE

Switch Moscow, St Pete's and Persepolis to Catapult

(IBT Cyrus Archer moves onto our Iron)

Turn 5 - 0575 AD
Gordium expands, gaining Marble - still not connected

Our WC defeats his Archer, and limps back to Persepolis for healing (0.2 left!)

We discover a Barbarian Island to the West, and a 1 tile HC island off his coast with a Pike defender.

Turn 6 - 0590 AD

Our exploring Caravels come across Tiwanaku and Cuzco; another Pike, 2 Maces and some Archers are prevalent

Caravel near Americans in South sees HC Caravel nearby

Our WC in Persepolis has 19 XP; lots of Promotions to choose from, I leave that to later

Turn 7 - 0605 AD

2 Catapults completed, one in Persepolis (NE next) and 1 in Moscow (+20 Collateral Barrage selected); start moving forward, and build another Cat in Moscow

Elephantine completes Aquaduct - next Market

Reduce Research - CoL in 1

Cyrus pushes another Archer forward, and 3 Archers have been moved over from their other city
America has a city called Minoan, that has quite a stack in it. They show up with a higher score than HC!

(IBT, Gandhi kicks off a GA)

Turn 8 - 0620 AD

We learn CoL; still no trade for Feudalism with Gandhi, even offering Theo and CoL
Research at Zero gains +83 gpt

Swords do in Cyrus Archer on Iron; ship chain Catapult from Moscow over

(IBT, those 3 extra Archers show up near Persepolis)

Turn 9 - 0635 AD
Euclid is born in Heliopolis (free Philosophy, but it would be nicer to trade for that); stash him in Thebes
Memphis has completed Heroic Epic; Courthouse next
Find Vilcas, 1 Mace, 1 Archer
Take defensive positions against 3 Archers near Persepolis - will he attack, go around or stay put (he goes around)

Turn 10 - 0650 AD

Destroy 3 Archers with no losses, but units are weakened and any assault on Pasargadae is delayed.

Several more little islands have been found, and I've dropped an explorer off (or about to drop off) in Arabian territory.

end of log

In general I've been building Markets, Aquaduct, and some Courthouses are in the queue.

Next GS is due in Thebes in about 20 turns or so; Persepolis should be producing good GPP by that time. War against Cyrus is fairly stalled now, and perhaps a Cease Fire should be signed. We have 4 Swords/2WCs and a Cat in the South, 3 Swords and a Cat in the NE, and another WC in Insenceatopia if desired.

I haven't seen more than 2 Defenders in any of HC's cities so far, with another unit here or there.

Gandhi learned Theo towards the end of the turnset, so he wasn't interested in that trade. Can get CS in 11 turns if desired.

Next is MailMan, or DaviddesJ. Here is a map of the new territories


650 AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0650_01.Civ4SavedGame)

ainwood
Jun 24, 2006, 03:40 AM
You didn't mention any longbows for HC.... :eek: Maybe he's bypassed them?

Edit - yep: He's got engineering & civil service.

ainwood
Jun 24, 2006, 04:46 AM
Whilst MM doesn't have astronomy, alexandria is defenceless. Might want a token unit there (we can't pop-rush in it).

Maintenance is 102 / turn, and 30 of that is from Persepolis & gordium. Should we give gordium away once we have completed the heroic epic & national epic? The other priorities for courthouses should be incensetopia, novgorod, moscow & maybe st petersburg, plus another to allow the FP.

Persepolis should chop-complete the NE. Then should we go forge=>courthouse, or courthouse=>forge? I favour the former, because the extra hammers will help more than the gold, and we can appoint an engineer.

Re the war: If we move the cats in to take-down the defences, then we probably have enough units. Bombard the defences, then suicide the cats for collaterol damage, and clean-up with whatever units are available. Then we should go for peace (Cyrus will talk now).

For GPP points the next GP costs 450. Thebes has 252, and is making 9/turn, so we'll have another GPP in 22 turns. Seeing as this doesn't have the NE, then this is the one we want to build next.

After that, perspolis will have (hopefully) a forge, so we should get 18 GPP/turn. Does the next one cost 550? If so, then we should get another GP in (8 turns to build NE) + (10 turns with two scientists = 60 GPP) + (490 / 18) = 28 turns: Total 46 turns! :eek:

@DaviddesJ - I know you prefer slavery, but if we really need GPP, then would not caste system be better? Perspolis has enough food at its current size to support 10 scientists = 60 GPP/turn. If we timed it well, we could finish gp two and 13 turns after completing the one in thebes (and we could guarantee the type we got via specialist selection).

civ_steve
Jun 24, 2006, 09:40 AM
I think we should use Caste System primarily, to support Persepolis and GS creation, with occasional switches to Slavery for mass pop-rush (every 15 turns or so). Being Spiritual, these are 1 turn switches, and a stack of GS's ready to assist in a bunch of Techs would be very advantageous!

DaviddesJ
Jun 24, 2006, 10:20 AM
I think we should use Caste System primarily, to support Persepolis and GS creation, with occasional switches to Slavery for mass pop-rush (every 15 turns or so). Being Spiritual, these are 1 turn switches, and a stack of GS's ready to assist in a bunch of Techs would be very advantageous!

You do know that, even if you're spiritual, you can't switch civics on consecutive turns? You have to wait 5 turns (I think) from the last switch, to switch again.

That said, I'm not too resistant to switching back and forth between CS and Slavery, going into Slavery every 15 turns for pop rushing. However this requires significant extra MM, for best results (e.g., partially building one project, then saving it in the queue while building something else, in order to bring it out later at the right stage of construction for pop rushing), and, so far, most of our participants haven't seemed too inclined toward that. I guess we can just let each player decide in turn.

DaviddesJ
Jun 24, 2006, 10:22 AM
After that, perspolis will have (hopefully) a forge, so we should get 18 GPP/turn. Does the next one cost 550?

No, it's 450, 600, 750, etc.

DaviddesJ
Jun 24, 2006, 10:23 AM
I assume MailMan is next, and I'm after that. Let me know if you want to switch instead.

ainwood
Jun 24, 2006, 06:13 PM
No, it's 450, 600, 750, etc.
Yeah - I figured that thinking about it later! :lol:

The multiples stay the same until the 10th one, don't they?

DaviddesJ
Jun 24, 2006, 09:12 PM
Maintenance is 102 / turn, and 30 of that is from Persepolis & gordium. Should we give gordium away once we have completed the heroic epic & national epic?

I still think (as I've said several times) we should have given it away as soon as we captured it, and traded with Gandhi for the marble.

I do notice that Gandhi has wheat for trade now. I don't know if he'll give us both wheat and marble for the resources that we're giving him for free now. But we could trade for marble now, and then cancel that in 10 turns to trade for wheat. He also has gpt to give us for resources (why keep giving them for free?).

Under lessons learned, the second war with Cyrus has been a disaster. Significant economic cost, -2 relations hit with Gandhi which is a big deal, benefit of marble is relatively minimal, Persepolis is badly impacted by unhappiness. We're clearly much worse off than if we had never done it.

At this point, since we don't want to take the relationship penalty for re-declaring war on Cyrus a third time, it seems reasonable to me to finish taking out Pasargardae. If we roll up the catapults and bombard it down to 0%, this shouldn't be that hard.

We definitely should have units stacked in Persepolis to offset the unhappiness! If we want to produce lots of GPP here, we need the population to be much higher. We could be growing it if we didn't have all of that unhappiness (not to mention the extra commerce).

It still seems to me that we're consistently failing to emphasize food for growth, in many places. Many of our cities could be substantially bigger.

Anyway, it's up to MailMan (assuming he shows up soon).

MailMan
Jun 25, 2006, 01:10 AM
My home computer crashed in a private CIV game and now refuses to go up again. Until I fix the computer I will need a autoskip.
(I will continue to comment from my work based on the reports)

DaviddesJ
Jun 25, 2006, 09:10 AM
OK, I have the turn and will play later today.

DaviddesJ
Jun 25, 2006, 03:40 PM
OK, since I'm next, I decided to do a detailed study of possible tech paths.

Given the state of our opponents, I'm firmly convinced that we could win quickly if we could reach Astronomy soon, together with either Knights or Macemen. We wouldn't need any more techs after that.

The fastest route to Astronomy is to get 3 Great Scientists (one we have now, one in Thebes, one in Persepolis). We can do that in about 20 turns (taking advantage of the National Epic, and using Caste System). We need to research Paper on our own, and hopefully get Philosophy in trade from Gandhi (I think he will trade it once he builds Angkor Wat). Then we can cash in the 3 GS for (most of) Education, Printing Press, and then Astronomy. Meanwhile, we hope that we'll be able to trade some of these for Feudalism and Guilds, so we can start building Knights. Alternatively we might just get Civil Service, and start the war with Macemen.

So this is the route I'm going to aim for. Of course, the next player will have to make many of these decisions, since I can't get any of it done in 10 turns. I'm just going to put us on that path.

Meanwhile, I'll try to prosecute the war against Cyrus, while also stacking enough units in Persepolis to solve its happiness problem (which won't be easy, but is necessary since we need the GPP there). We may have to settle for just making peace with Cyrus soon. ("War, what is it good for?") I may build some Horse Archers, figuring we can upgrade them to Knights later. (I wish I could still build WCs!!!)

DaviddesJ
Jun 25, 2006, 04:35 PM
P.S. Another GP plan is to aim for a Great Merchant so we can choose a Golden Age. I don't think this is better than the 3 GS plan, but I'm open to arguments.

ainwood
Jun 26, 2006, 01:13 AM
We may get a GE by accident - which may strengthen the case for a golden age.

DaviddesJ
Jun 26, 2006, 10:47 AM
By the way, it appears, from the progress graph, that Team CFR won their game in 1322 AD. That gives us 68 turns from the present save, to tie them. I'm skeptical that we can do it quite that fast, although, their conquest was certainly very rapid. It seems that, around 1100 AD (30 turns from now), they finished research and cranked up their culture, which means they then conquered the rest of the map, and expanded their cultural boundaries sufficiently, in less than 40 more turns.

civ_steve
Jun 26, 2006, 02:34 PM
The status chart will not show the last save where victory is reached. CFR does have the best stats of the other teams and will be the team to beat, but their final victory date is (will be) sometime after 1322 AD. I say 'sometime' because some teams will either allow the last player to do 20 or even 30 turns (to appear to have finished sooner) or will not upload the last few turns to the server and play from games passed through their team thread; this is done to confuse slower teams as to when they actually finished.

You can take the cultural information and assume that's when CFR turned off research. We'll have to decide if we want to attempt Permanent Alliance with Gandhi or not; after Astronomy I think we're another GS away from mostly learning Scientific Method and combined with learning Liberalism to get a free Communism, we'll have PA capability. In addition to planning for an invasion of the other AI's, there are a numer of uninhabited islands we are coming across and we should start building up Settlers to claim, perhaps towards the end of the conquests. With our Creative trait these new cities will rapidly gain additional cultural space, but they would be a drain until close to the end. No one else is likely to get Astronomy, so sending Caravels with Explorers and Settlers is probably sufficient to hold the terrain until we settle it. (Unless Gandhi shows up, but that's OK if we get a PA signed).

I agree about learning Paper ourselves; I would prefer to gain as many beakers from our GS's as possible.

DaviddesJ
Jun 26, 2006, 04:30 PM
I think we can win the game more quickly than we can reach Permanent Alliance (even assuming that Gandhi will agree to PA immediately when we discover Communism, which I think is very optimistic). But we should keep the PA option in mind. If we research Paper, Printing Press, Education, and Astronomy, then we only need four more techs for PA: Philosophy, Liberalism, Scientific Method, and Communism. Philosophy we can probably get from Gandhi, and Liberalism gives a free tech which could be Scientific Method or Communism. So, e.g., if we can get Scientific Method from a Great Scientist, then we might only have to research Liberalism and get Communism by slingshot. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a plausible way to get Liberalism via Great Person.

I think it's still probably more attractive to shut down research when we get Astronomy plus a military tech (either Civil Service or Guilds). But we can make that decision when the time comes.

Our biggest risk is that we will work hard to get Astronomy, and we still won't be able to get CS or Guilds from Gandhi. Then we're definitely slowed down. If we do get to trade for CS or Guilds, we want to avoid giving away Education, so we preserve the opportunity for the Liberalism slingshot, if possible.

P.S. You can't put settlers on Caravels, so we can't settle any islands until we have Astronomy. It's probably not worth doing anyway, because of the cost. We can settle them late, when we're near domination. I don't think there's any reason to "build up" settlers. We can make a lot of them quickly, when we want to. We might even pop-rush or chop-rush some of them, in cities we capture. Since we don't care about score, we don't care about burning up our population as we near the end of the game.

civ_steve
Jun 26, 2006, 05:54 PM
For some (unknown) reason I thought that Settler was on the short list of units that Caravels can transport, but it isn't. No one gets to those islands before Astronomy (so that will be us :) )

Regarding research path, we're already assuming we can arrange a trade for Philosophy, or that would be the next Tech a GS would help us with. We need to learn Paper ourselves, then used a stored GS for Printing Press, finish that research, a 2nd GS for Education, finish that research, and a 3rd GS for Astronomy, and finish the research. Hopefully Paper+CoL (or something else similar) is sufficient for Philosophy, and I think finishing the war with Cyrus will help make Philosophy tradeable as well. If CS or Guilds is available, PrintingPress might make that trade happen keeping Education to ourselves.

At this point we can start overseas offensive operations. The Americans appear to have the strongest army of those civs, at least in power count.

So at that point, we have to decide whether to continue to get GS's and spend research to achieve Communism and PA. We are 3 techs away, and Scientific Method can be GS assisted (4th GS), and Liberalism gives us a free Tech, which should be Communism.

DaviddesJ
Jun 26, 2006, 06:10 PM
I agree with your analysis, but researching Liberalism will be very expensive, so we'll have to decide if we really want to do that. Also there's a danger that we will invest in researching Liberalism and then we won't be first to get it.

I think getting Gandhi to trade Philosophy has nothing to do with how much he likes us; it's just that he's building the wonder and the AIs avoid trading the enabling techs for wonders while they are building them. So all we can do is wait and hope we can get it (or else we'll need a 4th GS for Astronomy).

All in all, I am not terribly optimistic, but maybe we will have some luck. I'll try to get through my turns tonight (in the next 6 hours or so). No one has offered a different idea than my plan to pile up GS's and hope they lead us to Astronomy. Getting either Civil Service or Guilds is also a risk, but it's one that I think is a pretty good chance: Gandhi is fairly likely to research one of these for us. I'd rather fight a war with Knights, but Macemen will probably be ok.

DaviddesJ
Jun 26, 2006, 11:23 PM
I did some experiments before starting my turnset, and they were negative enough that I want to report them. At these settings (Monarch difficulty, Epic speed, Standard map), a GP is worth 2245 beakers.

Paper costs 1345 beakers, Education 4036 beakers, Printing Press 3588 beakers, Astronomy 4485 beakers (with 131 so far). So our current plan (use one GS toward Education, Printing Press, and Astronomy, and finish researching them ourselves) has a cost of 1345+(4036-2254)+(3588-2254)+(4485-2254-131) = 6561 beakers.

Obviously, we could just research Astronomy directly for 4485-131 = 4354 beakers, which is significantly faster. Even if we get a 4th GS, the route to Astronomy using 4 GS still costs 4461 beakers, i.e., still more than direct research.

So I'm thinking now that we should now research Astronomy, rather than Paper. I can try to make this as fast as possible, but it's going to be more than 20 turns, I'm pretty sure.

Given this decision, I'm thinking I should create merchant specialists, rather than scientists. If we get a Great Merchant, we can either use it for a trade mission (getting gold to fund a high research rate), or we can use it to research Civil Service or Guilds (if we first get Paper with our GS, or by trade, or from another GM).

civ_steve
Jun 26, 2006, 11:34 PM
Sounds good for now. Go for Astronomy directly.

DaviddesJ
Jun 26, 2006, 11:49 PM
Given that decision, I could use our current Great Scientist for an Academy in Thebes. This would increase our total research rate by about 20 beakers/turn, or about 10%. So we would get Astronomy 2 or 3 turns sooner, and we would also have somewhat greater research potential.

Or I could save it, figuring that 2 turns is not all that important, and it's worth more beakers if we cash it for a tech later, or perhaps use it with another GP for a golden age. My inclination is to save it, but, if we do want the Academy, we should certainly decide that now.

The absolute fastest route to Astronomy is probably not the Academy, but saving the GS and then combining it with our next GP (assuming it's not another GS) for a Golden Age. That would also give us a production boom to start building our army.

MailMan
Jun 27, 2006, 01:45 AM
What about using 2 GS to research Education, then self research of liberalism to grab astronomy?
Liberalism is much chipper than astronomy, and if we use 2 GS on Education we will most probably get there first.


I was able to repair my computer. Apparently the memory chips gave up and I had to replace them. I should be able to play after DaviddesJ.

DaviddesJ
Jun 27, 2006, 02:25 AM
What about using 2 GS to research Education, then self research of liberalism to grab astronomy?

This could work, but it's less certain. We would need to research Paper, and the cost of Paper plus Liberalism is the same as Astronomy. So I don't think it's faster than direct research of Astronomy. And it's riskier. We also need Philosophy before we can research Liberalism. Gandhi might give us that, for Paper plus Code of Laws, but that's far from a sure thing. He might just research Paper and/or COL on his own, before he's willing to give us paper.

I think I prefer the idea of creating Great Merchants, which are more flexible (trade mission, or golden age, or direct research of Paper/Civil Service/Guilds).

DaviddesJ
Jun 28, 2006, 12:47 AM
OK, I played through 800 AD. Save here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0800_01.Civ4SavedGame

Log below. Comments later.

Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Swordsman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Switch research to Astronomy
Turn 210, 650 AD: Cancel sugar to Gandhi
Turn 210, 650 AD: Cancel gems to Gandhi
Turn 210, 650 AD: Trade gems to Gandhi for wheat
Turn 210, 650 AD: Trade sugar to Gandhi for 6 gpt
Turn 210, 650 AD: Start Sistine Chapel in Memphis (for cash, eventually?)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Set research to 0% (+140 gpt)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Optimize cities for growth
Turn 210, 650 AD: Moscow builds Jewish Missionary, begin Courthouse
Turn 210, 650 AD: The borders of Pi-Ramesses have expanded!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi adopts Serfdom!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi has completed Notre Dame!

Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Swordsman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Cyrus has 8 archers in Pasargadae
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Caravel has defeated Huayna Capac's Galley!
Turn 211, 665 AD: HC galley sunk with settler and archer onboard

Turn 212, 680 AD: Research to 100% (while building Markets)
Turn 212, 680 AD: Novgorod builds Harbor, begin Courthouse
Turn 212, 680 AD: You have circumnavigated the Globe!

Turn 213, 695 AD: Peanut adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 213, 695 AD: Switch to Org Religion (-9 gpt)
Turn 213, 695 AD: Ananda has been born in Cuzco!

Turn 214, 710 AD: Research to 0% (+140 gpt)
Turn 214, 710 AD: The borders of Memphis have expanded!
Turn 214, 710 AD: Huayna Capac has completed The Church of the Nativity!

Turn 215, 725 AD: Judaism has spread in Persepolis.
Turn 215, 725 AD: Pop rush Courthouse in Moscow
Turn 215, 725 AD: Moscow builds Courthouse, begin Theatre
Turn 215, 725 AD: Persepolis builds National Epic, begin Courthouse
Turn 215, 725 AD: Gordium builds Granary, begin Courthouse
Turn 215, 725 AD: Peanut's Swordsman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!

Turn 216, 740 AD: You have made peace with Cyrus!
Turn 216, 740 AD: Peace with Cyrus for 10 gold and 1 gpt
Turn 216, 740 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!
Turn 216, 740 AD: Moscow builds Theatre, begin Catapult
Turn 216, 740 AD: The borders of Persepolis have expanded!
Turn 216, 740 AD: Gandhi's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 217, 755 AD: Peanut's Caravel has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 217, 755 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 54 $ for Moscow.
Turn 217, 755 AD: Research to 100%
Turn 217, 755 AD: Thebes celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 217, 755 AD: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 218, 770 AD: Peanut adopts Caste System!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Switch to Caste System (+5 gpt), Paganism (-10 gpt)
Turn 218, 770 AD: Thebes celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Moscow builds Catapult, begin Market
Turn 218, 770 AD: Saladin adopts Theocracy!

Turn 219, 785 AD: Huayna Capac discovers Feudalism
Turn 219, 785 AD: Give Saladin Machinery & Drama for Feudalism & 10g
Turn 219, 785 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 219, 785 AD: St. Petersburg builds Market, begin Courthouse
Turn 219, 785 AD: Islam has been founded in Lahore!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Gandhi has completed Angkor Wat!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Vassalage!

Turn 220, 800 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Novgorod!
Turn 220, 800 AD: Research to 0% (+214 gpt)
Turn 220, 800 AD: Gandhi discovers Divine Right

MailMan
Jun 28, 2006, 01:08 AM
I got it. I will probably play in 12 hours or so.
Comments? Suggestions?

DaviddesJ
Jun 28, 2006, 01:12 AM
Comments:

- I had to make peace with Cyrus because there was no way to prosecute the war and keep enough troops in Persepolis to fight unhappiness. And getting GPs from Persepolis seemed a much higher priority. I pillaged Cyrus's improvements for cash, before accepting peace. We should avoid re-attacking him, because Gandhi won't like it. We should ferry some troops from Persepolis up to Heliopolis, for the eventual attack on HC. (But we have to leave a big stack in Persepolis to keep the people happy.)

- I set up Thebes to generate a GP in 8 turns, and Persepolis to generate a GP in 9 or 10 turns. We want Thebes to pop a GP before Persepolis, because otherwise it will take a long time to get Thebes up to 600 GPP. After these come out, Thebes should go back to pure commerce/production. Persepolis can keep making GPs.

- We are about 9 turns from Astronomy, if we oscillate between 0% and 100% research. Unfortunately, Gandhi doesn't have either Civil Service or Guilds to trade to us (he spent time researching Divine Right instead). The techs that Gandhi might research next are: Code of Laws, Civil Service, Guilds, Engineering, Paper. I propose that we should gift COL to Gandhi to ensure he doesn't research it. (But I didn't do this myself, to give us time to discuss it.)

- We have many possible research paths. If we get two Great Merchants, we can use them immediately for Paper and Civil Service. Or, we can trade Astronomy to Gandhi for Philosophy, then use our GS for Paper, then use the 2 GMs for Civil Service and Guilds. Or, if Gandhi gets Civil Service, we can trade Astronomy for Civil Service, and then use 2 GMs for Paper and Guilds. Etc.

- If we can get Astronomy and either Civil Service or Guilds, then I think we should shut down research and switch to war mode. Kill Huayna Capac first, then the others.

- Huayna Capac has a caravel near Novgorod. It's not an immediate threat (note that caravels can't pillage), but it's disrupting our commerce so we should send some of our ships to kill it.

- We can switch to Vassalage in 3 turns. It will actually save us money, the free units with Vassalage are worth more than the higher cost of the civic. We can also switch to Theocracy then, or wait until we're ready for war mode.

- Memphis is building the Sistine Chapel mostly for gold. My plan was to get it 95% finished and then switch to other stuff. When someone else builds the Sistine Chapel, we can switch back to it and get 900 gold, which will be very useful. Take care not to accidentally complete it!

- I chopped some forests, but I think we should save the remaining forest for building 8 XP units once we switch to war mode. Right now there's not much for our workers to do; when we start the war we'll want to ship some of them overseas.

MailMan
Jun 28, 2006, 07:10 AM
- Memphis is building the Sistine Chapel mostly for gold. My plan was to get it 95% finished and then switch to other stuff. When someone else builds the Sistine Chapel, we can switch back to it and get 900 gold, which will be very useful. Take care not to accidentally complete it!
There is no need to switch back, we will get the money either way.

If we are about to get astronomy and build some transport navy, maybe we should build more troop and settlers tight now. we can than cash-upgrade them if needed later on.

DaviddesJ
Jun 28, 2006, 09:37 AM
Maybe it makes sense to build troops now for upgrading later, but the cost of supporting them is significant. We should switch to Vassalage and Theocracy if we're going to do that. Perhaps a few cheap WCs, which can eventually become Knights. We'll also need them just for garrison duty at home.

We can also build Catapults, which we will need more of and which don't need to be upgraded. I built a couple of those, and it would make sense to build more in cities that don't have something else to do.

I don't think we need to build Settlers now. We won't need very many, if we just capture the enemy cities and crank up culture to expand their borders. And we can always poprush some Settlers late in the game if we need to, once the wars are won. Building them now will just cost us a lot in unit support.

Probably we should move most of our Galleys over near Heliopolis, where they can be upgraded for Galleons to invade Huayna Capac.

I started building some Theaters, these will be useful later when we have war weariness. And they are cheap because we are Creative. I suggest more of those.

MailMan
Jun 28, 2006, 03:50 PM
I was unable to download the save.
according to the maintenance thread there is some DNS problem in the gotm.civfanatics.net server.
The problem should be solved soon - but I will only able to play tomorrow.

@DaviddesJ - please upload the save somewhere else and give a link to it (in the case the server is still down when you read this)

DaviddesJ
Jun 28, 2006, 04:48 PM
The official link is working for me now. Are you still having trouble? I can try to put a version on my own server (later tonight). I will also post some screenshots.

civ_steve
Jun 28, 2006, 08:36 PM
I haven't downloaded the save yet. Just to confirm - we have one GS generated earlier that is stored in Thebes. The GP that Thebes is about to complete - I assume you used Caste System to add a lot of Merchant GPP points to it, but there were also a lot of Scientists points already, so it might be either (?). After that, the GP formed at Persepolis should be a GM (?). So about the time we finish Astronomy we should have 1 GS, 1 GM and one more either GS or GM (?) In any case, if we can arrange for Guilds and Civil Service, the combination of Maces and Knights with Ocean transport and a foreign AI that appears pretty weak should allow for quick conquests.

I think gifting CoL to Gandhi sounds good; make sure he's doing something else and keeps him happy.

I have no significant issues with any of DaviddesJ's suggested points.
I would prefer to not trade or gift Gandhi Astronomy if possible to give us sole settling right over remote islands.
At this point, rapid conquest overseas is the near and mid term goal.
Agree - pre-position most of the Galleys for upgrade once we learn Astronomy to support attack on HC.
Might we stoke an Arab/American war to help reduce the units we have to go against later on? If so, should we do that about the time we start attacking HC or perhaps earlier?
Should Persepolis continue making GM's? GS's might help us if we wish to pursue the PA, but it seems like that won't occur soon enough to be competitive.
Lots of catapults will help the assaults; they could be built now so that our main Barracks cities can focus on Maces/Knights later.
HC didn't have much more than 2 or 3 units in the cities I saw, so he shouldn't be too difficult. America had a stack of about 8 units in the nearest city that I saw, and they show up as 3rd on the Power graph, so they appear to be our toughest opponent.
HC has at least one 1-tile island; in my limited experience I haven't gone up against these; will we need units with the Amphib promotion(s)?

That's most of my comments/questions for now. Good Luck MailMan! And Phabuk is on-deck.

DaviddesJ
Jun 28, 2006, 08:56 PM
Correct: One GS stored, one GM likely from Thebes in 8 turns (but could be GS or GE), one GM likely from Persepolis in 9-10 turns (but could be GA or GS).

After that, we can go for a GM or GS from Persepolis in about another 10 turns.
GM is probably more flexible, but we could go either way.

Since coast tiles don't count toward domination (I think this is different than Civ3), the small islands are not really important. Taking HC's one-tile island is probably more trouble than it's worth. (You can attack it directly from a ship: you just suffer a combat penalty. Also I think you can't bombard it to reduce its defenses because there's no place for your catapults to operate from.) I'll be happy if we reduce him to that one city.

I've also had the idea of trying to get America and Arabs to fight, before we get there. Downside is perhaps triggering a military buildup actually means they will have more troops for us to deal with, even if they lose some in combat? It might make more sense to try to attack one and get the other to join in when we're ready to start fighting. Then, after they help us, turn against our supposed ally.

DaviddesJ
Jun 28, 2006, 11:52 PM
Here's the 800 AD save file as an attachment. I've also included some screenshots.

I realize now that Thebes has a very significant chance of a GS instead of GM. And Persepolis will have a nontrivial chance of a GA instead of GM.

DaviddesJ
Jun 29, 2006, 12:23 AM
(Deleted: Read post #442 instead.)

DaviddesJ
Jun 29, 2006, 12:48 AM
A few more minor comments. Pi-Ramesses could use a Missionary to convert it to Judiasm. Not a high priority but something to keep in mind (e.g., if we switch back to Organized Religion). I looked at the wonders our opponents have. There aren't too many that are significant. If we capture Washington, we will get the Pyramids, which we could use for Police State. Huayna Capac has Chichen Itza, which means we should try to attack Cuzco first, to remove the defensive bonus from his other cities. HC also has two shrines, but the total income of 11 gpt isn't significant at this point.

MailMan
Jun 29, 2006, 02:59 AM
So to summarize the actions I am going to take:

- research astronomy (in about 7-9 turns)
- move forces north to departure point near Heliopolis. those forces include galleys and forces from presepolis
- I would use GM received money for a series of upgrades to our forces.
- first target is Cuzco. (not during my turnset)
- after Astronomy, shut down research for few turns to gather gold for upgrades.
- build cats, start build 1-2 galleys few turns before astronomy is finished

genraaly - buildup to attack HC

DaviddesJ
Jun 29, 2006, 08:53 AM
(Deleted: see next post.)

DaviddesJ
Jun 29, 2006, 09:57 AM
I just had a much better idea about what we should do, since we just got Feudalism:

- immediately: give Code of Laws to Gandhi
- immediately: switch research to Guilds (6-8 turns to complete)
- increase merchant specialists in Persepolis to 10 (optional)
- immediately: keep 7-8 troops in Persepolis for happiness, move rest toward Heliopolis
- use next GP for Golden Age (in 6-8 turns)
- research Astronomy after Guilds (very fast with Golden Age)
- revolt to Vassalage and Org Religion in 3 turns
- revolt from Org Religion to Theocracy in 8 turns
- start building 8 XP Knights, after Guilds
- build 1 more Jewish Missionary after Org Religion, for Pi-Ramesses

This is better, because we research Guilds before Astronomy, so we still have the Colossus bonus. And we can build up Knights while working on Astronomy, so we'll have a decent force ready to go when we do get our Galleons. And the Golden Age will help us get a big force of Knights much faster. If we're lucky, we'll be able to trade Guilds to Gandhi for Civil Service, and build both Knights and Macemen while keeping a monopoly on Astronomy.

If we increase the specialists in Persepolis, we'll get our next GP 2 turns sooner, but the one after that will take longer (because Thebes has to build up to 600 GPP). I don't think it matters much, either way is fine.

I strongly suggest this over the previous plan.

MailMan
Jun 29, 2006, 02:33 PM
pre-turn:
Traded CoL for 20g to Gandhi
hire 4 more merchants in perepolis
set research to guilds
start to move force toward Heliopolis

1. 815AD
Cyrus demanded drama!!!!
we lost caravel to barbs galley (79%) - I wanted the XP

2. 830AD
disband few units (workers and explorers) to save some gold

3. 845AD
Changed civics for 4 extra XP

4-5. 860AD-875AD
move forces

6. 890AD
we cashed in on the Sistine chapel build for 890g (it was about 1 turn from being complete)
we got an artist in perepolis!!!
I used him and the GS to start a golden age
Attacked HC caravel (65%) and won
Since our golden age started, I put on the citizens to work in the field and collect the GA bonus.

7. 905AD
nothing much. start building WC to become knights

8. 920AD
we learn guilds
America changed civics to serfdom and vassalage
I changed civics to slavery to whip the over inflated cities (we do not need caste system until the GA is over)
I whip some courthouses.

9. 935AD
I queue some galleys to become galleons later on.

10. 950AD
nothing much

Summery:
we are 2 turns away from Astronomy.
we need at least 2 more turns to gather some golds for upgrades
we have 1 knight and 4 more will be ready in the next 2 turns.
Memphis can produce a knight in 2 turns (GA + HE)
We should be ready to attack by the end of the next turnset (I hope Cuzco will be ours).

THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0950_01.Civ4SavedGame)


Here is your Session Turn Log from 800 AD to 950 AD:

Turn 220, 800 AD: Research to 0% (+214 gpt)
Turn 220, 800 AD: Gandhi discovers Divine Right

Turn 221, 815 AD: Peanut's Caravel (3.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Combat Odds: 79.1%
Turn 221, 815 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 221, 815 AD: Barbarian's Galley has defeated Peanut's Caravel!

Turn 223, 845 AD: Peanut adopts Vassalage!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Peanut adopts Theocracy!

Turn 224, 860 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Heliopolis. Work has now begun on a Caravel.
Turn 224, 860 AD: Gandhi has completed The Sistine Chapel!

Turn 225, 875 AD: Memphis can no longer work on The Sistine Chapel. The lost $ is converted into 8204!
Turn 225, 875 AD: You have constructed a Market in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Aqueduct.
Turn 225, 875 AD: Wang Xizhi has been born in Persepolis!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Ptolemy has been born in Washington!

Turn 226, 890 AD: Peanut's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Peanut's Caravel (3.30) vs Huayna Capac's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Combat Odds: 64.9%
Turn 226, 890 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Huayna Capac's Caravel is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Peanut's Caravel is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Huayna Capac's Caravel is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Huayna Capac's Caravel is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Huayna Capac's Caravel is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Huayna Capac's Caravel is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Peanut's Caravel has defeated Huayna Capac's Caravel!
Turn 226, 890 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Memphis. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 227, 905 AD: You have discovered Guilds!
Turn 227, 905 AD: Roosevelt adopts Vassalage!
Turn 227, 905 AD: Roosevelt adopts Serfdom!

Turn 228, 920 AD: Peanut adopts Slavery!
Turn 228, 920 AD: You have trained a Knight in Memphis. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 228, 920 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in Incensetopia. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 228, 920 AD: Chuang-Tzu has been born in Madras!
Turn 228, 920 AD: Mo Tzu has been born in Cuzco!

Turn 229, 935 AD: Archimedes has been born in Mecca!

DaviddesJ
Jun 29, 2006, 03:28 PM
Neat, good set. It seems that we're on track for a pretty nice domination. I'm happy with the way things worked out---I spent lots and lots of time trying to think of different approaches, before I came up with this (fairly obvious in retrospect). Bad news that America switches to Vasselage (more 6XP defenders to deal with), but nothing we can do anything about.

Do we want to get Astronomy asap, or delay it for a couple more turns so we can have the Colossus+Golden Age bonuses for longer? The extra turns mean extra cash for upgrading the galleys when we do discover it. I haven't counted, but I'm guessing we are working about 40 water tiles, i.e., discovering Astronomy will cost us 40 gpt.

Phabuk
Jun 29, 2006, 04:46 PM
I got it and will play within 24 hours (tomorrow night).

we are about to have 6 galleys usable near heliopolis and so 6 galleons after astronomy. So I propose to delay astronomy until we have 18 cats and knights ready to load in the galleons, in order to optimize money for upgrading. Caravels can be upgraded to fregate I think...

Then the plan is to go straight on cuzco, bomb the defence and unleash the knights, right?

My turnset will be essentially a war turnset but your comments and advices are welcome...

DaviddesJ
Jun 29, 2006, 06:30 PM
I'm not able to load the save file. Although I don't like delay, I would like to have the chance to look it over and comment before the next round.

For transporting troops overseas, it's faster to line up your galleons 5 spaces apart, and "daisy chain" moving troops on one galleon, then load them onto the next galleon, and move that one, etc. So you don't have to have enough troops to fill up all of your galleons, in order to start ferrying troops. Also, we will want to send the catapults first (with one or two defensive units to protect them), as it will take a couple of turns of bombardment before we're ready to attack with the ground troops.

Frigates would be nice, but we would need to research Gunpowder, Engineering, and Chemistry, to get them. I don't think it's worth the cost. I think we should shut down research after Guilds and Astronomy. The caravels can patrol around HC's island and interfere with his commerce (by sitting on tiles that he would like to work, and sinking ships if he builds them).

DaviddesJ
Jun 29, 2006, 09:45 PM
OK, I managed to get the save file. Here's a duplicate link, if anyone else has trouble: http://www.desjardins.org/david/Peanut_SG001_AD0950_01.Civ4SavedGame

Here are some minor comments:

Thebes has an engineer for no good reason; it could be working the lake, instead. (You have to keep an eye on the computer; it likes to allocate specialists for no good reason, when the city grows.)

Heliopolis is getting very big: it will have a happiness problem when we ship troops out. It could eventually pop rush several knights. It does need a Barracks first.

Novgorod is building a Galley that will complete before Astronomy: it should delay this so that it turns into a Galleon.

Incensetopia has a Galley queued with 0 hammers: I think we'll have more ships than we'll need. I'd change this to a catapult (of which we definitely need many more, if we're going to take 30-ish cities from our 3 opponents in a reasonable time).

Persepolis lost a whole bunch of people (slavery?). I'd shift to work as much food as possible, to regrow. We don't really need production there. We're going to want to turn it back into a GP farm (after our GA ends).

Cyrus finally got iron, when his borders expanded and he took it from us. It's unlikely to be a problem, though. I don't think he's going to produce enough troops to threaten our stack in Persepolis.

We should build a pasture on the Horses near Incensetopia, just for trade purposes? All of our opponents seem to have Horses already, but we still might as well hook it up.

Overall, I think we're on the right track. I don't think we need more ships, after the ones queued up. We need lots of knights and catapults.

When we get Astronomy, should we trade with the Americans and Arabs? If we can get some more luxuries or health resources for our spare sugar, etc., we might as well?

civ_steve
Jun 30, 2006, 10:53 AM
Thanks for putting the game in a link, DaviddesJ! I haven't gotten to the server in days, its been down so much.

I like the idea to daisy chain the units over; it seems a good fit to the issues of building units and performing initial bombardments.

(BTW, I wasn't aware that CIV4 didn't count Coast spaces towards the Domination limit, just land spaces. That would make small islands fairly worthless for Domination.)

Did we settle on whether to declare war on one of Arabia/America, and get the other one allied early (about now), or to wait until we were actually attacking our first foe on that continent. The concern was, starting an early war there might militarize the continent making it more difficult when we started operations. Also, America (more likely than Arabia) might dominate and take over much of Arabia. I'm still a bit in favor of starting this war right away, as I feel the net number of units we will face will decrease, even the most powerful ones, and if one dominates over the other, then we will be facing one strong AI with many cities to defend, and one very weak AI with few resources.

Good Luck, Phabuk!

DaviddesJ
Jun 30, 2006, 03:45 PM
I think perhaps it's irrelevant, because I'm doubtful that we can get America and Arabs to fight, at least not without bribing them with techs we would rather not give away. They don't really like us that much. I think we're probably better off just taking advantage of trade routes and resource trades with them, until we're ready to attack.

ainwood
Jun 30, 2006, 06:11 PM
Just a question re daisy chaining. How does that work in Civ4? Do you have to unload / load the units on the same tile (rather than move them to the adjacent tile?) Can you do more than one ship transfer / turn? etc.

DaviddesJ
Jun 30, 2006, 06:18 PM
Just a question re daisy chaining. How does that work in Civ4? Do you have to unload / load the units on the same tile (rather than move them to the adjacent tile?) Can you do more than one ship transfer / turn? etc.

The ships have to be on the same tile. When you load a unit onto a ship, it immediately loses all of its remaining movement (if it had any). Thus, you can't move it onto an adjacent ship. But you can still load it onto another ship in the same square (and you can do this any number of times, with the same unit).

So, if you start out with a chain of ships 5 apart (galleons that move 5), you can load 3 units onto the first ship, move the first ship 5 spaces so that it's on the same tile as the second ship, load each of the units onto the second ship, move the second ship 5 spaces so that it's on the same tile as the third ship, load each of the units onto the third ship, etc.

Phabuk
Jul 01, 2006, 08:02 AM
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD1100_01.Civ4SavedGame


pre turn: optimize growth and production in towns

965 AD:
memphis: knight --> knight
alexandria: axeman --> theater
persepolis: market --> theater
send caravel to HC
all units in heliopolis

980 AD:
we have discovered astronomy --> administration (civil service ?)
research down to 0% (+287 gpt)
thebae: knight --> cat
St peter: knight --> knight
elephantine: knight --> knight
persepolis: theater --> barracks
trade sugar vs corn, jewels vs cerfs with FDR
trade sugar vs 5gpt, fish+shells vs ivory with saladin

995 AD:
memphis: knight --> knight
moscow: knight --> knight
incensetopia: cat --> barracks
send 2 galleons with 3 cat and 3 knights to cuzco to begin bombing

1010 AD:
thebae: cat --> knight
pi-ramses: galley upgraded in galleon (construct galleon directly is very long as the galleon

don't replace galley in the production list) --> knight
nothing much

1025 AD:
memphis: knight --> cat
persepolis: barracks --> forge
unload troops near cuzco (south)
the daisy chain is in formation

1040 AD:
end of golden age
memphis: cat --> knight
st peter: knight--> knight
roosevelt converts to hindouism
saladin adopt bureaucracy
bomb cuzco --> defence down to 29%
upgrade units

1055 AD:
heliopolis: barracks --> knight
novgorod: knight --> knight
bomb cuzco downto 0%
the daisy chain is working (quite well...)

1070 AD:
moscow: knight --> knight
caravel kills HC galley
lost 3 cats in cuzco to weak the stack in there... and the knights take cuzco!
switch to cat in thebae and memphis
poprush knight in heliopolis --> cat

1085 AD:
elephantine: knight --> cat
healing in cuzco
army toward tihuanacu


1100 AD:
disband a galley
pillage HC iron source
knight in the hills near tihuanacu
cats toward tihuanacu

DaviddesJ
Jul 01, 2006, 02:29 PM
Good progress. A few comments:

1. I don't agree with disbanding galleys, we aren't that short on gold and we will eventually be able to upgrade them all to galleons. We'll want a lot of ships to transport ships from Incaland to America/Arabia, while simultaneously bringing troops from home, while simultaneously shuttling troops (esp. catapults which are slow) from one place to another on the coasts.

2. It would be nice, at some point, to trade for Engineering, for extra road movement. Civil Service also has some value (at least, for upgrading experienced Swordsmen to Macemen for attacking Spearmen/Pikemen). Should we be willing to give Astronomy to Gandhi, for both of these? We can probably get one or the other, for Guilds, but not both. (I haven't checked.)

3. We should be cautious about throwing away catapults in stack attacks. We have a lot of cities to bombard, and we'll need a lot of catapults to do it. One or two might occasionally be called for, but, in many cases it's not necessary. Sacrificing three against Cuzco sounds like a lot.

4. Many of our cities have allocated an odd specialist, for no good reason. Again, it's really worthwhile to check every city after growth, to make sure the AI hasn't assigned specialists you don't want.

5. It's faster, in the long run, to send many cats in different directions, to bombard several different cities at once, as opposed to taking one city at a time. The limiting factor in our rate of conquest will, soon, be how fast we can reduce the cities to zero defense, not the problem of bringing enough knights. (See point #3.)

civ_steve
Jul 01, 2006, 06:00 PM
I've got the save and I believe I'm next. At this point, prosecute the conquest of the Inca. Save money for upgrades. Get lots of Catapults and Knights in the mix; bombard city defenses down; see how well I can implement point #5. Probably rather get Engineering in trade with Gandhi than CS (haven't seen what he wants, but extra movement sounds good now). If war goes well, start planning for Arabia/America.

Probably wont play for another day or so, so please post any suggestions or comments.

MailMan
Jul 02, 2006, 01:51 AM
we should decide which cities to keep and which cities we want to raze.

I was thinking that we want to keep the following:
Cuzco (already got it)
Tiwanaku (holy city)
Macho Picho (holy city)
Oantayatambo (the city in the east)

I haven't looked directly at the save file, so if there is a city with a wonder, we should consider keeping it.

DaviddesJ
Jul 02, 2006, 10:18 AM
Shouldn't we keep every city? The goal is to achieve domination quickly; in order to dominate, we are going to need to bring all of the land of these islands into our cultural borders; the way to control the land is to keep the cities and turn up our culture rate.

We could raze the cities, and then replace them with new settlers that we build, but why is that better? It will just take longer. And captured cities with more population will generate more commerce and revenue, to offset their maintenance costs (or we can use the population to rush things we need, like courthouses).

We should also build the Forbidden Palace somewhere, Cuzco looks good. We could use some workers to help with chopping. We also need a 6th courthouse before we can build the FP.

MailMan
Jul 02, 2006, 10:26 AM
I suggested to disband some cities for the following points:
- maintenance cost will be VERY high (~20g per city)
- I suggested keeping the good cities and disband the low pop/bad terrain which will surly cost us more than give revenues.
- We have at least 30 (probably more) turns until domination, in that time we will build settlers to claim to needed land. we will be saving around 3 cities * 20g *30t = 1800g
- the cities will require garrison units. we need our units to fight.

DaviddesJ
Jul 02, 2006, 11:24 AM
OK, I don't think the cities are quite that expensive, but you have a good point. I count 119 land tiles in Incaland, and we can control 92 of them with four cities (Cuzco, Tiwanaku, Machu Picchu, Ollantaytambo), if we get them up to 150 culture each (which shouldn't be too hard). I would agree with razing the others. See map.

DaviddesJ
Jul 02, 2006, 11:56 AM
By my count, we currently control 160 (of 166) land spaces on our starting continent; 29 on Gandhiland, and 1 on Incaland, for 190 total. According to the victory screen, we have 21% of land area and need 64%. That means our target is roughly 580.

There are 119 land tiles in Incaland, and 298 land tiles in Amerarabia. If we get all of those, we'll be up to 606. So it's definitely feasible. Note that there's a lot more land on the other continent, than the one we're attacking now, so we have a lot of work ahead of us.

There are at least three islands that are big enough to be worth colonizing: 13-tile island SE of Novgorod, 9-tile island north of Chicago, and 10-tile island NW of Jaipur. We could also add at least a dozen tiles if we go back and capture Pasargadae.

We might want to try to generate a Great Artist in Persepolis. Especially if we capture Pasargadae, we could use a culture bomb to grab a bunch of territory from Gandhi. (That would be worth another 25 tiles or so, on top of the 12-ish that we would get immediately from capturing Pasargadae.)

Another possibility: even without attacking Cyrus again, there's a space 3NW of Gordium where we could found a new city, and a culture bomb there would take a bunch of territory from Gandhi.

DaviddesJ
Jul 02, 2006, 12:10 PM
P.S. It's very strange that we have 2 scientists and 2 artists in Persepolis. If we want a Great Artist, then I understand the artists, and if we want to add more GPP to try to get it faster, then I can see adding another type too, but why do we have scientists instead of merchants? When we're not doing any active research?

civ_steve
Jul 02, 2006, 01:43 PM
Good discussion points! Great Artists for Culture bomb sounds like a better use of Persepolis' GPP. Probably play in about 12 hours.

DaviddesJ
Jul 02, 2006, 01:59 PM
If we can maximize growth in Persepolis, we could switch back to Caste System at some time in the future, and blast a lot of GA points. It's probably reasonable to oscillate between Caste System and Slavery, for the benefits of each, if we don't mind the micromanagement.

You should also look at whether it makes sense to try to produce a Great Person in Thebes. That's probably only feasible if we switch into Caste System. If we do want to try that, then the goal should be to get Thebes to 600 GPP before Persepolis gets to 600. Otherwise Thebes will have to get to 750, which takes a really long time. Getting Persepoliis to 750 is not so hard, because it has the National Epic.

DaviddesJ
Jul 02, 2006, 02:41 PM
I might write up a summary of our early game (up to Optics) for the spoiler thread. I assume no one else particularly wants to do this?

DaviddesJ
Jul 02, 2006, 08:47 PM
I made a dotmap of Amerarabia, based on assuming the existing cities get up to 150 culture. The good news is that gives us control of all but 4 tiles.

We could raze Los Angeles at a cost of only 2 tiles, and Chicago costs only 3 tiles. But that assumes full cultural expansion: it makes more sense to me to keep all of the Amerarabian cities, I think, because we should be relatively close to the game end at that point, and because we might win before we get all of the cities up to 150 culture. (Especially if we gain some territory in Gandhiland.)

MailMan
Jul 03, 2006, 01:29 AM
We could raze Los Angeles at a cost of only 2 tiles, and Chicago costs only 3 tiles. But that assumes full cultural expansion: it makes more sense to me to keep all of the Amerarabian cities, I think, because we should be relatively close to the game end at that point, and because we might win before we get all of the cities up to 150 culture. (Especially if we gain some territory in Gandhiland.)
I agree on keeping all cities in Amerarabian land. hopefully, by this point we will sweep through the land with our Superior power, we will own the cities for relative small time (especially if the resistance time is considered). therefore the financial loss of that land is rather small (compared to Inca land which we will control for much longer time).

MailMan
Jul 03, 2006, 01:32 AM
I might write up a summary of our early game (up to Optics) for the spoiler thread. I assume no one else particularly wants to do this?
Please, go ahead...

civ_steve
Jul 03, 2006, 03:53 AM
Yes! Volunteers for summary write-ups are always welcome!

I just concluded my session for the SGOTM3 and should be able to complete this turnset for SGOTM4 tomorrow. Very sorry for the delay.

MailMan
Jul 03, 2006, 07:49 AM
I just looked at the graphs. we are positioned very well, however we must make a strong push forward. it seems that team CFR is positioned very close to us.
We should be in war state of mind and do not sidetrack unless there is a very strong reason

MailMan
Jul 03, 2006, 07:52 AM
Another issue - AlanH proposed a deadline for the game in the maintenance thread. I think we will make the current deadline but (just to be sure) we should pick up the pace of playing.

ainwood
Jul 03, 2006, 03:20 PM
Another issue - AlanH proposed a deadline for the game in the maintenance thread. I think we will make the current deadline but (just to be sure) we should pick up the pace of playing.
As long as the game keeps moving, we'll be fine. :)

bigchief
Jul 03, 2006, 07:56 PM
Hey guys! I'm back to playing Civ again, and I just popped in to say hello. I don't know if you guys remember me, but I was a Team Peanut player way back.

civ_steve
Jul 04, 2006, 06:21 AM
Hi bigchief! I certainly remember you from the early days of Team Peanut! :) Perhaps you would like to join up for SGOTM2?

OK, after a few delays (lots of holiday activities going on in the household, which haven't left me much free time):

Turn 0 - 1100 AD
Set Persepolis to Maximum Growth
Plan to switch to Caste System after a round of Pop rushes
Gordium will rush our 6th Courthouse in 4 turns
Use Thebes to generate Great Merchant (not likely to get Great Artist here)
FP in Cuzco (chops will help)
Engineering is not Available; Civil Service is (from Arabia and Gandhi)

Trade Guilds to India for CS

Turn 1 - 1106 AD
Pop Knight in Moscow and Pi-Ramses
Switch Insenstopia to Settler (to claim island SE of our continent)
Upgrade Axe to Mace at Helio
Start advancing units on Tiwanaku

Turn 2 - 1112 AD
Cat at Memphis and the two Knights join our forces
Lots of units 2 spaces away from Tiwanaku
Upgrade Galley near Incenstopia to Galleon

Turn 3 - 1118 AD
2 more Cats and 2 more Knights built
Pop Knight at Novgorod
Tiwanaku is now rather beseiged
HC has individual units spaced out in tiles from his remote corner cities; may be easier to pick them off if I get a chance

(IBT an Incan Maceman loses to our Knight attacking out from Tiwanaku
Incan Pike attacks and defeats our Knight near Cuzco, defending a Worker chopping a Forest)

Turn 4 - 1124 AD
1 Knight and 1 Cat added
Pop Courthouse in Gordium
Pop Settler in Incenstopia
Tiwanaku:
4 Catapults reduce city defenses to 0
They have a Knight(!), Mace and LongBow defending
1 Collateral attack doesn't wound the Knight; lost Cat
2nd Collateral attack takes it down to 2.2; lost Cat
Lose a Knight to the Maceman, but 3 more Knights take the city and 128 Gold
Lose a Knight but take out a Crossbow/Pike stack that was guarding the Horses to the NW of Tiwanaku

Switch to Caste System and set up Thebes and Persepolis as GPP cities

Turn 5 - 1130 AD
Pick on Crossbow outside an Incan city; add Knight to defend wounded Knight
Load up 3 Ships to siege Ollantaytambo; a Caravel scouts it out, only 1 LongBow defending; we can be there next turn with 4 Cats and 5 Knights
Start accumulating forces near Cuzco for overland march on Machu Pichu
Cuzco recovers and starts on FP
Thebes will get GP in 6 turns; Persepolis in 8

Turn 6 - 1136 AD
Land adj to Ollantaytambo, 2 LongBows there now
Accumulate near Cuzco; heal at Tiwanaku
With CS, starting to Farm some areas near Novgorod, Persepolis

Turn 7 - 1142 AD
Scouting of Machu Pichu reveals only a LongBow and a Worker defending
4 Cats reduce Ollantaytambo's defense to 4%
At 70% and 76%, Ollantaytambo's defenders fall, and we capture with no losses
2 Pikes guard Andahuaylas, so I leave that city for later
Move 2 Knights North to sit on Iron outside Huamanga

Turn 8 - 1148 AD
Galley complete at Helipolis, and upgraded to Galleon
Machu Pichu's attackers are now adjacent
Giza is founded on island to SE, start on Theater; Galleon is heading back to pick up defender from Persepolis
Scouting of Khufa shows 3 LongBows, 1 Mace and 2 Spears defending so this will not be any easier
Prepare for advance on Huamanga

Turn 9 - 1154 AD
4 Cats reduce Machu Pichu's defenses to 0
Odds aren't good against a LongBow with City defense, use Swordsman, onl 14%, but he wins!
And city is captured with 3 Workers (Choppers for Cuzco)
Move units adjacent to Huamanga
Start Advancing a stack of Cats and Knights towards Vilcabamba
Scout Boston - 1 LongBow, 1 Spear and 1 Archer

Turn 10 - 1160 AD
Elephantine finishes Catapult, and I set it to build Settler (for Island North of India)
Huamanga is captured, with loss of 1 Knight (to a Pike)
After hemming and hawing, I decide to hold on to it; we are still running a large surplus (I haven't used much Gold), and I'm concerned that we will have troubles invading the AmeriArabia continent
Stack is now 2 turns out from attacking Vilcabamba
Notice that Persepolis is suffering from War Weariness, so GPP output has dropped

end of log

HC has had several big bites taken out of him (and more to come). I've started scouting the Arabs and Americans - some well defended cities here and there. I've claimed one of the 3 islands DaviddesJ pointed out, and have started a Settler to claim another. I think we're going to need a few more Galleys along the way yet. Heliopolis has been my go to city, so there are some units stacked up waiting for Transport, and others are on the way.

I have a Galleon with a Sword from Perspolis and 2 Workers on auto move to Giza; now Persepolis has 4 unruly citizens; is this due to the 1 Sword? Or to our current active war status?

In general I've been setting a build of Theater for captured cities; Cuzco is working on FP, and Tiwanaku on Galley (to be upgraded to Galleon for our navy).

Thebes should get a Great Person this next turn; Persepolis was in 3 turns, but that's a bit delayed with the unhappiness.

Over to you, ainwood!

and here is the save - 1160 AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD1160_01.Civ4SavedGame)

MailMan
Jul 04, 2006, 06:38 AM
sounds like great progress.

My thoughts,
- We need to take out HC ASAP to reduce WW.
- after HC is done, we need to decide what is the best invasion point to arab/america land.
- I do not think it was a good idea to claim those islands so soon. I think it was better to concentrate on the war and settle this island later on (they only cost us money now). once settled a city can pop its borders in 5 turns (at 100% culture)

civ_steve
Jul 04, 2006, 12:20 PM
My concern was that Gandhi would discover Astronomy and claim them for himself. I have no experience in this phase of the game (trying to optimize for Domination) so I don't have a good feel for tradeoffs between cost of maintaining cities vs optimal city location and culture growth. Also, I only used 1 Galleon to serve these two islands (the 3rd can be secured once the War with Arabia/America is well underway), so there isn't a lot of extra time if we're planning to win in the next 20-30 turns or so. I also didn't use my Galleons as well as I could; I kept some nearby off-loaded units in case I wanted to reload and sail, and ultimately these Galleons weren't used; I could have ferried over another load of land units during this time.

If taking HC all the way out will delay our final victory (and it probably will), I think we have to survive some WW for now. I would leave one stack to take care of the remaining continental Incan cities (the one heading towards their Northern city will do), and focus the rest of our Forces on Arabia (or America) next. We are short of Galleons; probably best would be using 3 or so, land a couple Catapults and a bunch of Knights in good position to take our first city and survive while a Daisy - chain can ferry over consistent reinforcements.

(Actually, this might delay us as well; we need to leave a Defensive force, but turning on the Culture meter probably means we don't have to take out these last few cities; we should be able to gain that cultural space. Otherwise that 1 tile island is taking a few spaces from us near Cuzco right now.)

I found I needed at least two turns to get the 3 units over using a series of Galleons - 1 turn to load the units, then move them successively through the chain, then a 2nd turn to off-load them on the far end. The units can load in a port and still have movement, but once they load onto a 2nd Galleon, their movement (except for more transfers to more Galleons) is done for the turn. If they offload into a city, then they can move out on the 2nd turn; not an option if you don't own a city to offload into.

At the end of the next 10 turns we need to be firmly on the Arab/American continent, probably in possession of a few Arabian cities.

DaviddesJ
Jul 04, 2006, 02:06 PM
I think we should attack America first; we can attack both through Arab territory and from the coast. America will take longer, so we should start on it first. Plus, our late-arriving troops will be able to join the final assault on the Arabs.

I tend to agree with MailMan that we should take all of HC's cities, in order to eliminate the war weariness. Unfortunately, it's going to be very expensive to take Corihuayrachina. Several highly promoted Macemen, with multiple levels of city raider, are our best bet, I think. I don't think throwing catapults at him makes sense; his defense is too high.

Some indvidual city observations: St Petersburg is unhappy, due to no garrison; Moscow has an engineer, which it doesn't need; Heliopolis has specialists too, perhaps because it's pop limited, but it can still pile up more pop planning to enslave them (2-3 at a time, for galleons, knights, macemen) when we switch out of Caste System; Persepolis should go up to 7 artists, so that it can get a GP in 3 turns and then we can go back to Slavery; Cuzco can adjust its citizens to work better tiles; Tiwanaku could create an artist or two so it can expand faster to work better tiles; in our captured cities, theatres don't seem very useful, I'd accumulate hammers toward some cheap military units (or maybe ships) that can eventually be poprushed.

I don't think we can win in 20 or even 30 turns, but I'll do my best on my set (Ainwood is next, and me after that, right?)

We can get fairly ruthless soon about pop rushing.

I think we should probably try to capture Cyrus's capital, in the endgame. At an appropriate time (after Persepolis pops a GP), we should switch to Slavery, pop rush a couple more cats there, upgrade the existing force to Macemen/Knights, and march off to war, pillaging his iron on the way. Persepolis will be very unhappy after its garrison leaves, but who cares?

We can use our GA in Pasargadae, or ship it over to Amerarabia for use at a suitable occasion; I can see arguments either way.

MailMan
Jul 05, 2006, 03:35 AM
(Ainwood is next, and me after that, right?)
I think that I am after Ainwood, which probably means that you will get to finish the game after my turnset.

We can use our GA in Pasargadae
I think this is a good idea. we can take out Cyrus in just a few turns and use his current capital.

DaviddesJ
Jul 05, 2006, 07:26 AM
I think that I am after Ainwood, which probably means that you will get to finish the game after my turnset.

OK. I don't think it's going to go quite that fast, but we'll see. Good luck!

I think this is a good idea. we can take out Cyrus in just a few turns and use his current capital.

OK. Cyrus does have iron now, so he will have some better units, but not very good. I don't think he's close to Feudalism (but I haven't checked lately). A backup plan, if the conquest goes awry, could be a culture bomb in Gordium.

civ_steve
Jul 05, 2006, 10:41 AM
I was taking a closer look at DaviddesJ's map of the Amer-Arabia continent, which shows the layout of a group of cities assuming 2 expansions of cultural radius.

I noted that there are 2 columns of American cities that are exactly aligned with each other (Boston-Atlanta-SanFrancisco and Chicago-NewYork-Seattle), and are spaced so that 1 cultural expansion will control a swath through this continent. The 2nd column (Chicago-NY-Seattle) is also very accessible from the Coast and can be attacked fairly quickly from the sea. Combined with a GA Cultural Bomb in Washington DC, we can gain control of more than half of this continent fairly quickly without needing 2 cultural expansions.

Arabia is not as well laid out, and their cities are more spaced out needing more 2nd expansions to control their territory.

Because of this, I would focus on the Arabs first, giving their cities more time to culturally expand twice, and take the Americans second, invading overland from Arabia and along their coast with at least 1 Sea flotilla.

DaviddesJ
Jul 05, 2006, 12:13 PM
I do agree that we don't really need 2 cultural expansions in America, and this is a good point.

But a culture bomb in Washington would be overkill. If we have the surrounding cities expanded once, we only need Washington to expand twice, to pretty much fill in all of the gaps. That should be easy to do with artist specialists (using Caste System).

Even in Arabia, if we get a couple of key cities to expand twice, and the rest expand once, we'll only have a few gaps. Again, it's easy to get the large cities to expand quickly, with artists.

Perhaps more important than the order of attack, I realize we don't really need saved money. I was thinking we will want to put up our culture rate to grab territory. But it looks to me like we'll be able to get all of the cultural expansion we need with a handful of artist specialists. So we should spend freely now the money we do have, on upgrades. We can also use money for cash rushing once we capture the Pyramids.

DaviddesJ
Jul 05, 2006, 12:15 PM
Ainwood is overdue to check in. Should we swap with MailMan (i.e., whichever of them signs in next should take it)? We have plenty of time before the deadline, still, we should be taking seriously the goal of 24 hour "got it" and 48 hour turnaround.

civ_steve
Jul 05, 2006, 01:31 PM
I agree that it's overkill to use GA in Washington. My thinking was more that it allows a quick 'vertical' grab of territory, and might shave some turns off by allowing us to bypass certain cities and take others earlier to coordinate the expansions and this culture bomb all at once. All of that would be pretty aggressive to set up, and using Washington's population to achieve the 2 expansions quickly seems pretty doable.

Good point about using Caste System for culture generation (I was thinking only of using the Cultural%). Using cash for upgrades (like the Swords in Pesepolis to Maces for a final attack on Cyrus) and possibly rushing (once we can get the proper civic) would be very beneficial.

I see no problem finishing by the August deadline, but we should keep things going. And I'm sure ainwood wont mind if MailMan and he switch at this juncture. It's been 24 hours with no post by ainwood, so MailMan or ainwood, please post a 'got-it' for the next turnset.

DaviddesJ
Jul 05, 2006, 01:55 PM
Note that, if we have enough people, then we can just make them all artists, if we aren't worried about final score. They only starve at the rate of 1 per turn. So, if we have a city of size 9, under Caste System, we can make 9 artists for 38 culture the first turn, then 8 artists for 34 culture the next turn, then 7 artists for 30 culture, 6 artists for 26 culture, 5 artists for 22 culture. That's 150 culture in 5 turns.

Therefore there's no reason to go to great lengths to generate culture, until the end is in sight. We can get all of the culture we need in just the last few turns. Hopefully that will come during my turnset, if I'm 3rd from the current time (but I still think that's maybe optimistic).

If we are only 30 turns from the end, then we should get our GA from Persepolis asap, and then revolt to Slavery and start using the whip fairly liberally. Units built more than 10-15 turns from now won't reach the front in time to contribute.

civ_steve
Jul 05, 2006, 02:32 PM
Another thing to do - use Caravels for advance scouting of coastal cities. In addition to having a Galleon chain bringing units over (once we've made landfall), we should have one or two groups of Galleons working the coasts (I would think 2 eventually, one going counter-clockwise and a 2nd going clockwise). These would complement our main force going through the middle of the continent. Seeing how many units are defending these coastal cities would help define how many Galleons for each group (probably 2 or 3 each, 6 or 9 land units at a shot), and how large each group. We will probably need 2 or 3 more Galleons in addition to our current amount to accomplish this.

Good points about the pop-rushing; we're in the end game and need to do things to hasten the conclusion. Sounds like we want to switch to Slavery after the GA is generated in Persepolis, plan on 2 or 3 rounds of pop-rushing in our old core cities (over 10-15 turns or so), then switch back to Caste system to generate culture by making Artists in captured cities. This might allow Persepolis to generate a 2nd Great Artist for a 2nd culture bomb somewhere (at least 1 of Cyrus' 2 remaining cities after their capture, or perhaps somewhere in America/Arabia).

DaviddesJ
Jul 05, 2006, 02:38 PM
By the way, did anyone else notice that it's theoretically possible to reach Huayna Capac from our continent, with galleys? We would have to build a city 3E of Memphis, and use a great artist for a culture bomb there. That would create a cultural bridge.

I wonder if we could have won faster this way. It really wouldn't have been much faster, because to research Guilds sooner (for knights) we would also have had to self-research Feudalism (instead of waiting to trade for it). Perhaps we could have found a faster route to Civil Service, and built a lot of macemen, and fought HC with those, traveling by galley.

In theory we wouldn't even need Optics. Note that there's one tile that's a key "clue" of another landmass: the tile 7W 1N of Memphis has 1f1c on it, which it wouldn't have if it weren't near another landmass (it's too far from our continent), but we can see it from our coast. Of course, it could have been just a 1-tile island.

DaviddesJ
Jul 05, 2006, 02:59 PM
Sounds like we want to switch to Slavery after the GA is generated in Persepolis, plan on 2 or 3 rounds of pop-rushing in our old core cities (over 10-15 turns or so)

If the game's going to be over in 30 turns, there's no reason to spread out the pop-rushing even that much. You can pop-rush a knight every other turn. (It's too expensive to rush a knight from 0/135, because there's a penalty for rushing with no accumulated hammers yet. So the best you can really do is rush every other turn.)

In cities with forge, the "sweet spots" for pop rushing knights is from 25/135 to 46/135 (+132 hammers for 2 pop), or from 79/135 to 90/135 (+88 hammers from 1 pop). What I suggest is switch to slavery and then, for several turns, pop rush every other turn in every city (or whenever you're in one of these ranges).

Pop rushing catapults from 4/60 to 15/60 is also good. But if you pop rush knights carefully, you might be able to build catapults in one turn just with the carryover from the knight. In general, we should tend to build catapults in cities closer to Heliopolis, and knights in cities farther away, because catapults in the far away cities will take too long to make it to port.

ainwood
Jul 06, 2006, 03:18 AM
Yeah - I've "Got it". I've got a new job, and am finding myself very, very busy. Can't play for another 24-36 hours, so if mailman wants to step in, then go ahead. Otherwise, I'll play after work tomorrow / first thing the next morning.

MailMan
Jul 06, 2006, 03:27 AM
I can play in 12-24 hours.
I suggest that I go first, before Ainwood (if thats OK with you).

Currently - this is a "got it".

ainwood
Jul 06, 2006, 03:33 AM
I can play in 12-24 hours.
I suggest that I go first, before Ainwood (if thats OK with you).

Currently - this is a "got it".
Fine by me! Good luck. :)

civ_steve
Jul 06, 2006, 09:25 AM
OK, here's the order for the next few turnsets:

civ_steve - Just Played
MailMan <--- Up!, switched with ainwood
ainwood
DaviddesJ
Phabuk

Good Luck, MailMan! Time to take it to the AI! Did you have any questions regarding nearterm strategy?

@DaviddesJ - that's an interesting observation regarding a possible earlier path to HC. If we have cultural connection allowing a Galley to pass, can HC also pass through back to us? HC had Macemen very early so I'm not sure if we could have taken good advantage of this path, maybe as a mass swarm.

MailMan
Jul 06, 2006, 09:58 AM
Near term goals:
1. finish up with HC. either by taking out the rest of the cities or by stalemate and moving most of the forces to fight elsewhere
2. elsewhere means America, I will stage up forces to attack America, from both the sea and from Arabs land.
alternatively - attack the Arabs first. they are closer to out main line of forces.
3. finish off Cyrus (depends on the amount of resources I will be able to gather). use GA (if we get it) to bomb Cyrus' capital.
4. use the whip once we get our artist.

DaviddesJ
Jul 06, 2006, 10:17 AM
Note that, if we have enough people, then we can just make them all artists, if we aren't worried about final score. They only starve at the rate of 1 per turn. So, if we have a city of size 9, under Caste System, we can make 9 artists for 38 culture the first turn, then 8 artists for 34 culture the next turn, then 7 artists for 30 culture, 6 artists for 26 culture, 5 artists for 22 culture. That's 150 culture in 5 turns.

P.S. In the endgame, we can get Banking from Gandhi, and switch to Mercantilism, which would give us an extra artist per city that we need to expand.

DaviddesJ
Jul 06, 2006, 10:18 AM
Near term goals:
1. finish up with HC. either by taking out the rest of the cities or by stalemate and moving most of the forces to fight elsewhere
2. elsewhere means America, I will stage up forces to attack America, from both the sea and from Arabs land.
alternatively - attack the Arabs first. they are closer to out main line of forces.
3. finish off Cyrus (depends on the amount of resources I will be able to gather). use GA (if we get it) to bomb Cyrus' capital.
4. use the whip once we get our artist.

Just be careful about doing too many things at once. All four of these will generate unhappiness. We can handle some unhappiness, but we don't want to completely cripple our economy by having war weariness from several wars at once. That's why I think it's important to finish HC sooner rather than later, if we can.

DaviddesJ
Jul 06, 2006, 10:43 PM
If we have cultural connection allowing a Galley to pass, can HC also pass through back to us?

Yes. But the AI isn't very smart at all about naval combat, I don't think we would have a hard time stopping him at sea. Anyway, in theory we could build the cultural bridge when we're ready to attack. But it still seems impossible to know in advance that that would work.

MailMan
Jul 07, 2006, 05:42 AM
preturn:
handle happiness issues, raise lux to 10%
order spear in st. Pete to be a MP
MM to get the FP sooner
pillage HC horses

1. 1166AD
we got a great merchant in the capital, I am sending him to the Arabs.
I decided to take out HC, even at the cost of several losses, to remove the WW we already got from him (up to +6WW)

2. 1172AD
lost a knight, but took Vilcabamba
lost a cat and a knight, but raze Andahuaylas
switch to slavery

IBT - mace died trying to kill a knight

3. 1178AD
the FP is finished

4. 1184AD
Gandhi wanted Astronomy. I said no.
capture Vitcos at the cost of a mace and a knight
destroy the 1-tile island city (Corihuayrachina) for the cost of 4 knights (there was no other way to take the city but to sacrifice units)

5. 1190AD
raise lux to 30%

6. 1196AD
took the last city of HC (Vilcas). HC is destroyed
complete the trade mission for 2250g

7. 1202AD
took down lux slider back to 0%
trade Astronomy (+150g) to the Indians for banking. since the price of Astronomy kept going down, it means the Gandhi was studying it.
revolt to caste system + mercantilism.

8. 1208AD
declare war on Cyrus and move forces into his land while killing the spear that guarded the metal.
IBT - Cyrus throw 4 cats and 1 archer at our knights. all killed but 1 cats that retreated.

9. 1214AD
declare war on the Arabs. make two massive landing + 1 small one near Baghdad.

IBT - Cyrus sent another archer to his death, against our mace this time.

1220AD
we got a great artist in original Cyrus' capital.
Take out Medina without loses
bomb his second city in the north. (still waiting for units to heal)

Notes:
- we now control 32.89% land
- there is a settler ready to found a city next turn.
- I left some of the units unmoved pending discussion.
- I used most of the galleons to make a massive sea invasion into Arabs land.
I suggest using them now to chain our units to the front.

MailMan
Jul 07, 2006, 05:43 AM
I went over the limit of one message for the first time. so here is the rest:



Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (12.12)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 31.7%
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight (13.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (10.32)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 75.3%
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Longbowman!
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (7.51)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 95.9%
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Plot Defense: +2%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 22 (40/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 22 (18/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Pikeman!
Turn 250, 1160 AD: You have captured Huamanga!!!
Turn 250, 1160 AD: Harkuf has been born in Thebes!

Turn 251, 1166 AD: You have trained a Knight in Memphis. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (10.74)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 68.7%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Plot Defense: +9%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Longbowman!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight (13.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (10.74)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 73.2%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Plot Defense: +9%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight (13.00) vs Huayna Capac's Spearman (8.16)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Plot Defense: +9%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Spearman!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (6.22)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 97.0%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Plot Defense: +9%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (36/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (14/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Longbowman!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have captured Vilcabamba!!!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Catapult (5.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (8.10)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 4.2%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman has defeated Peanut's Catapult!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (11.34)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 65.7%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 20 (70/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 20 (50/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (6.30)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 97.6%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 22 (28/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 22 (6/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Pikeman!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (1.41)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Pikeman!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have captured Andahuaylas!!!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have pillaged 19 4 from the destruction of Andahuaylas!!!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut adopts Slavery!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Thebes celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have trained a Knight in Heliopolis. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have trained a Knight in Incensetopia. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have trained a Knight in Persepolis. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 252, 1172 AD: The borders of Gordium have expanded!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have constructed Forbidden Palace in Cuzco. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Tiwanaku. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman (8.80) vs Peanut's Knight (13.50)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Combat Odds: 9.2%
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Maceman!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Saladin has completed The Hagia Sophia!

Turn 253, 1178 AD: Thebes celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 253, 1178 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Elephantine. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 253, 1178 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Persepolis. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 253, 1178 AD: The borders of Tiwanaku have expanded!
Turn 253, 1178 AD: The borders of Ollantaytambo have expanded!
Turn 253, 1178 AD: Roosevelt adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (12.30)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 6.7%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Maceman!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (12.60)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 46.8%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 18 (66/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 18 (48/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 18 (30/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 18 (12/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Longbowman!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Crossbowman (9.90)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 73.2%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Crossbowman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Crossbowman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Crossbowman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Crossbowman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Spearman (8.80)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 74.9%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Spearman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Spearman!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Crossbowman (3.36)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Crossbowman is hit for 25 (9/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Crossbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Crossbowman!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: You have captured Vitcos!!!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (21.00)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 3.2%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (13.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (18.60)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 11.3%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (13.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (18.60)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 11.3%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (13.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (15.62)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 38.8%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 17 (67/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 17 (50/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 17 (33/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 17 (16/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Knight!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Huayna Capac's Pikeman (10.72)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 69.6%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 17 (38/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 17 (21/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 17 (4/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Pikeman is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Pikeman!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (2.97)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Longbowman!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: You have captured Corihuayrachina!!!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: You have destroyed the city of Corihuayrachina!!!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: You have trained a Knight in Memphis. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 255, 1190 AD: The borders of Giza have expanded!
Turn 255, 1190 AD: The borders of Machu Picchu have expanded!

Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Combat Odds: 66.6%
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Longbowman!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Huayna Capac's Maceman (9.60)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Combat Odds: 70.1%
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Huayna Capac's Maceman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Huayna Capac's Maceman!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: You have captured Vilcas!!!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: The Incan Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: The borders of Heliopolis have expanded!

Turn 257, 1202 AD: You have discovered Banking!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: Peanut adopts Caste System!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: Peanut adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: The borders of Huamanga have expanded!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: The borders of Vilcabamba have expanded!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: Gandhi adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: Hypatia has been born in Mecca!



THE 1220AD SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD1220_01.Civ4SavedGame)

MailMan
Jul 07, 2006, 05:44 AM
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have declared war on Cyrus!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Cyrus's Spearman (4.40)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Cyrus's Spearman!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: The borders of Vitcos have expanded!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult (5.00) vs Peanut's Knight (12.00)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 0.4%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have suffered collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Cyrus's Catapult!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: While defending, your Knight has killed a Persian Catapult!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult (5.00) vs Peanut's Knight (12.00)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 0.4%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have suffered collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Cyrus's Catapult!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: While defending, your Knight has killed a Persian Catapult!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult (5.00) vs Peanut's Knight (10.44)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 1.6%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have suffered collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 13 (22/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Cyrus's Catapult!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: While defending, your Knight has killed a Persian Catapult!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult (5.50) vs Peanut's Knight (8.69)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 8.6%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 15 (64/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: A Catapult has withdrawn from combat with your Knight!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Archer (3.30) vs Peanut's Knight (7.04)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 3.4%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: While defending, your Knight has killed a Persian Archer!

Turn 259, 1214 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 100 $ for Memphis.
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 $ for Ollantaytambo.
Turn 259, 1214 AD: You have plundered 84 from the Mine!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Saladin for Open Borders
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Deal Canceled: Sugar to Saladin for Gold Per Turn (5)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Deal Canceled: Fish, Clam to Saladin for Ivory
Turn 259, 1214 AD: You have declared war on Saladin!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Valmiki has been born in Persepolis!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Cai Lun has been born in Madras!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Cyrus's Archer (3.30) vs Peanut's Maceman (8.00)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: While defending, your Maceman has killed a Persian Archer!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Saladin adopts Vassalage!

Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Pasargadae to 45%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Pasargadae to 36%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kufah to 37%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kufah to 25%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kufah to 12%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kufah to 0%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Medina to 37%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Medina to 25%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Medina to 12%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Medina to 0%!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight (12.00) vs Saladin's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Combat Odds: 71.7%
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Saladin's Longbowman!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Knight has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Saladin's Spearman (2.50)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Saladin's Spearman!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: You have captured Medina!!!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight (11.00) vs Saladin's Longbowman (7.50)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Combat Odds: 89.3%
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Saladin's Longbowman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Peanut's Knight has defeated Saladin's Longbowman!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Your Knight has destroyed a Longbowman!

civ_steve
Jul 07, 2006, 08:53 AM
A couple comments: I think the switch back to Caste System was too soon; I would have preferred to see another 2 or 3 pop-rushes to get the military buffed up before switching back to Caste.

2nd - I would have attacked Cyrus after the invasion of Arabia was well underway; we have several Knights near Pasargadae that I would rather were ready to ship over to Arabia. IMO, it would have been better to use the last set of units built (pop-rushed in 4-5 turns, keeping in Slavery) to attack Cyrus. We can't finish this game without taking most of Arabia and America, so our focus should be there first. (And this wasn't clear in the discussion; yes, we should attack Cyrus, but when ...)

Definitely need more Catapults at the front - every city we are investing right now needs more reduction of its defenses. And the number of our attacking units is roughly equal to the number of defenders, so we need every numerical advantage we can get. Probably need to use some Cats here and there for collateral damage to preserve our attacking units, especially where we have Knights attacking Pikemen.

I like the mass invasion; from here a couple groups of Galleons can be use to work the coasts while the remainder (4 or 5) set up a chain.

We need to drive pop growth in the captured cities; for the final push we will need a lot of Artists to be generated (to give the Culture to give us a 2nd cultural expansion) which means we need their population to be as high as possible. If we switch back to Slavery, I wouldn't pop-rush in any captured city unless you know the pop is high enough to generate several Artists for that final cultural push.

DaviddesJ
Jul 07, 2006, 10:15 AM
As I posted earlier, I would have done much more pop rushing: on the order of 5 units in every one of our cities; we could have about 30 more knights by now. Definitely we should switch back to Slavery in 2 turns and rush a lot of units, but it will take quite a while now to build them and get them to the front.

I wish we had Engineering for fast road movement. It would have been nice to give Saladin Astronomy for Engineering, before attacking. Now I think we should make that trade with Roosevelt.

Roosevelt has several resources we could be getting (admittedly for only a short time, until we attack).

Why build Library, Granary, Temple, etc., in HC's old cities? These don't seem useful for fast domination. I would build catapults or macemen in all of these cities (while chopping all of the forests, and using some pop rushing).

ainwood
Jul 07, 2006, 05:27 PM
"Got it".

Will have a look today, post my thoughts, wait for feedback, and play in about 24 hours.

MailMan
Jul 08, 2006, 03:42 AM
Re: massive use of slavery - I think it was too soon for that. we still want to use the production out of the cities. this can be changed in 2 turns.

Re: Cyrus attack - In order to move the forces from there to the front in Arabia, I would have need to allocate galleon resources. most of the galleons were used in taking out HC and invading Arabia. I thought that we should use those forces now and in the future those units will be a reserve force, fueling the war with Roosevelt.

Re: former HC land - you are right that we need more cats, it should be changed immediately.