View Full Version : SGOTM 01 - Peanut


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AlanH
May 08, 2006, 11:30 AM
Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 1 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170295) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

This first SGOTM will not feature any advanced variant.. the winner simply will be the team that wins the game at the earliest game date with either domination or a diplomatic victory. All victory conditions are still enabled though, with exception of Space Race, so you have to avoid getting another type of victory (and of course prevent the AIs from winning).

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of May 12.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM01_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Hapshepsut of Egypt
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Mystery
Game Speed - Epic

Permanent Alliances are turned on (can form permanent alliances after either communism or fascism is researched)
Space race is disabled.
Egypt is locked into war with Huayna Capac of the Incas.
Egypt is locked into peace with an unknown civilization.

The map is hand built, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization4 v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award - the Gold Laurels.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by either domination or diplomacy.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Good luck to your team, and remember rule #1: Enjoy your game :D

Mathilda
May 08, 2006, 12:05 PM
Hi guys :wavey:

(Sorry, couldn't resist to be the first to post in this.)
I've asked to be a dedicated Peanut lurker for this, hoping to learn something.
Hope you don't mind if I take part in your conversation occasionally.

Go Peanuts!

civ_steve
May 08, 2006, 02:05 PM
Wow! We're up! And we have a dedicated Lurker (hi Mathilda) who can hopefully provide us great wisdom in our game play.

AlanH listed me as the coordinator for Team Peanut. This is fine; I'll help get the ball rolling (and I'll be PM'ing everybody shortly). However, I would prefer not to be the captain at this time. I'm already captaining the Civ3 Team Peanut, and besides I only have completed 2 games of CIV (GOTM4 and GOTM5) so if possible I think it would be good to have a bit more experience leading the team.

So please, if you are interested in being team captain, please post that interest. (Otherwise, as coordinator I might let the power get to my head and ASSIGN the position! he..he..heeeee )

One initial thing that is useful is to establish a team roster order based on location around the world. This allows for the timely changeover from member to member as turn sets are completed. So please post your time zone.

I am on the USA West Coast, so currently GMT-7

When it's your turn, we usually try to hold to a 24 hour period to post a 'got-it' saying you will play the turn set or pass it. If you play it, please try to complete within 48 hours, including any questions or discussions about the current play, the play itself, and posting the results to the system. This allows for a pretty quick set of turns, and keeps the game going and the team members' interest up. If you can't play a set of turns, its fine to arrange a swap or a delayed turnset; it's good to keep everybody involved and interested in the game so we want to accommodate someone who would otherwise skip a bunch of turns.

That's all I have for now. Please post that you've noticed the thread, that you're ready for the game and your timezone.

ainwood
May 08, 2006, 02:28 PM
Checking in! :yeah: I'll post more later, got to rush-off to a meeting. :ack:


OK - time zone is GMT +11-12, depending on the time of year.

Regarding the startin position - looks great for a GPP city, a commerce city or at a pinch, a science city (although production might be a tad low), and we'll certainly need some health bonuses with all the FP around - the cow is visible, at least.

As Egypt, we start with agriculture & the wheel, which means we can build farms straight away. Animal husbandry could be a good option for the first tech to get the cow as well as reveal horses for our war chariots, and maybe we should prioritise pottery to get granaries for growth - plus health if there is corn, rice or wheat around, as well as spam a few cottages on the FPs.

If we're at war with Huayna Capac, then we might want to find where he is straight away. Normally I'd just build a worker from the start, but this is risky if he's nearby with Quechua's out exploring. Maybe go for a warrior first?

Keith Larson
May 08, 2006, 08:02 PM
Checking in. Looks like a great team. I am GMT-5.

What are the odds that they would place the Inca nearby? This is the first GOTM. I doubt they would set this game up in a way that would knock a lot of newcomers out right out of the gate. Perhaps building a worker first would be worth the risk. This would give us a big advantage over all those teams that build warriors first.

Keith

Paulk
May 08, 2006, 08:20 PM
Hey my time zone right now is -6 I think, I'm Canada/USA mountain time. I would perfer to be later in the turn order. Mainly because I'm kinda unexperienced and would like to learn how to play better. Ainwood's suggestions sound great. I personally like building a worker first and chop more workers/settlers; but, there doesn't seem to be very many trees so AH pottery will probably be a better choice. I think making our starting city a good commerece city will be the best choice. With all the floodplains I don't think we will be able to support a very high population and early research is always helpful. Although there are many pros for making it a gp city. If we farm all those fps we would have 18+ surplus food. Also with slavery/herditary rule we could mass sacrfice to mass units and possibly a wonder. Well those are just some ramblings of me, well lets do this.

Paulk

MailMan
May 09, 2006, 12:19 AM
Checking in.

My notes:
1. The start location has too many FP for my liking. I fear we will encounter too much health problems. I would consider moving our starting settler SW to the plain hill. this will get us 2h in the capital + the cows, we will still be on the river and have access to 6FP. This city will probably be a production city.
We will probably put a future city in the desert hill NE NE E of the current position to take advantage of the rest of the FPs.
In this configuration we will only loose 1 FP (SE SE of settler)

2. I am not sure that we should play as quickly as we played in Civ3 SGOTMs. From lurking in many SG in Civ4 and playing one for myself (TM01) it appears that Civ4 require MUCH more coordination between the team members. we need to discuss our path of action, what buildings should be build in what cities (especially national wonders and city role assignments), Wars should be discussed and finally diplomacy that is usually get ignored in SG.

3. I am located in Israel (GMT + 2). However I am not sure that we should base the roster on that due to #2.

4. Based on past experience, I nominate CS as the team captain.

5. I think we should start with AH tech and a worker. We should use the warrior to scout the immediate area and than come back for home defense.
I do not think we should chop any trees (health problems)

Peanut
May 09, 2006, 06:43 AM
Crikey ! Looks like you have a high powered team here ready to take the nutty banner to new heights of glory !

Well, I will join Mathilda as an unofficial lurker and wish you the best of luck to complement your undoubtedly superb CIV skills in this SG.

I hope to learn something of how to play this version by watching you experts.

PS. Strewth mate - good to see an antipodal participant in the team, Ainwood. Brings a nice sense of global balance.

ainwood
May 09, 2006, 02:30 PM
Thanks, peanut!

@Mailman - nice analysis. The extra defence in the capital will be useful, and using the warrior for defence greatly reduces the risks associated with this locked-war in going for the worker first. It will be at the expense of wider exploration, but to be honest, there is a good chance that there aren't many goody huts nearby (game balance).

@Keith: Wouldn't surprise me at all to see the inca nearby, but I'd hope that the game design would be to reduce completely random events. I like the warrior nearby solution - good risk management.

@PaulK: Another argument against (too much) chopping is the health reduction. Moving to the hill should really help this - less flood plains & (potentially?) more forest.

BTW - if we have some health bonuses, that desert tile SE of the warrior might be a good (later) commerce / GP city with slavery to get basic improvements (granary, lighthouse, harbour).



Edit:

Any thoughts on locked-peace / locked war? I've never played with that before. How willing is your locked ally to trade? I guess my concern is that you have to prevent the locked-peace player from getting too big to prevent a domination victory (although I think that's reasonably unlikely given how bad the AI are at taking cities - unless they're dog-piling). If your peaceful ally wins a diplo victory, does that mean we win too?

MailMan
May 09, 2006, 11:48 PM
I think that locked-war AI will behave the same way as AIs in an always war game. That usually keep them a bit backward since they focus on military. However we should keep an eye on the WW issue.
In AW the WW is somewhat reduced. I do not think this will be the case in this game setting. Thats means that until we are ready to take the Inca completely out, we should only fight inside our borders!!

I think that locked-peace AI (never played that setting) means that we can declare on him, and he can not declare on us. However I think that we MAY be at war with him due to a mutual protection pact!
We will probably want to make the locked-peace AI our Ally. With an allied AI we share the same techs (we can ask him to give us whatever tech/resource and he will always say yes - even if it the last resource) and more importantly we share the domination limit.
What that means that we should keep a very good relations with that AI

civ_steve
May 10, 2006, 03:39 PM
OK, we've heard from everyone except Phabuk, so please post if you can.

Currently we have:
MailMan at GMT+2
Keith Larson at GMT-5
PaulK at GMT-6
civ_steve at GMT-7
ainwood at GMT-11/+12

I think MailMan's idea to found on the Hill to the SW is a great idea. Gives us 2H right away, and access to lots of fldplns and possible forest, and that Cow space.

I would suggest for a 2nd city site, that we be sure it is accessed to Fresh Water. I think that means it has to be adjacent to a River or Lake, so if this is so and we want the extra health, perhaps we want to found on one of the Hills spaces near where the Warrior is standing. Unless we find a better spot.

I agree that being cautious initially is warranted, so maybe the Warrior does a circuit route going counter-clockwise around the capital, perhaps a distance of 4 or 5 or so, just enough to get the lay of the land, perhaps locate a good resource or two, and defend the capital.

AH sounds like a good first Tech - develop the Cow and locate any nearby horses.

War Chariot sounds awesome! At 5 strength, with 20% chance to withdraw, it sounds like a good offensive unit to use, and at only 25 hammers vs 50 for the Horse Archer, the better unit to build and field.

Egypt is Spiritual and Creative. That means no Anarchy when changing Civics, and +2 culture per city. Combined with the War Chariot, I would think I would think the Domination approach has the potential to be the quicker victory condition. Especially if most civs are on one major landmass. I haven't attempted any invasions of territory off my initial continent in CIV, so I don't have a good feeling for how difficult that might be.

We may want to get a read on whether we want to go for quick domination or fast research. Either way, I think Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet is the first set of Techs we should learn. In the meantime, develop our capital, find Horses, get a couple units out scouting, and establish a 2nd (and 3rd, maybe) city. Around this time we should know enough to settle on our approach.

Also, I have no idea how locked-peace might work. It would make sense to locate this AI and make them a good ally.

civ_steve
May 11, 2006, 10:57 PM
Couldn't go a day without some kind of post in our thread!

We seem to have a basic starting strategy - found our capital on the Hill space to the SW, build a Worker, send Warrior in a fairly close radius around capital for protection, start on Animal Husbandry, followed by Pottery. Science on highest sustainable rate.

I'd like to keep the general order per our time zones. I do request that I start off the sequence, if no one objects. I will be out of town most of next week, so this weekend is probably the best time for me to get a turn set in. In that case the turn order would be:

civ_steve
ainwood
MailMan
Keith Larson
PaulK
DaviddesJ
Phabuk

The saves are available. If no one objects, I'll play in about 24 hours.

civ_steve
May 11, 2006, 11:25 PM
AlanH and I exchanged a few PM's tonight. Since we haven't heard from Phabuk, he mentioned a few players who would like to join up. Looking at the Team thread, and at the player's names on the Status sheet, I think it's official enough to welcome DaviddesJ to the Team!

DaviddesJ
May 11, 2006, 11:29 PM
AlanH suggested I join your team as a standby for your missing member, which I am glad to do!

More comments later. My only quick thoughts are (1) it's not so important to play in timezone order because I think it's nice to give everyone enough time to comment (if they want) each time the turn is passed, and (2) with a floodplains start, it's relatively more attractive to build warrior first, because you can grow to size 2 and increase your city's productivity more quickly than with non-floodplains starts. (But I'm not taking any strong position on warrior first vs worker first.) I think SW for the capital is ok, although it will create some awkwardness regarding where to situate a second city to the east to use the remaining floodplains.

I'm usually in US/Pacific, but currently in US/Eastern (and will be on the east coast for much of this summer). But when I can play the game is pretty erratic anyway (sometimes in the middle of the day, sometimes late at night, etc.).

Keith Larson
May 12, 2006, 08:45 AM
I like the idea of moving SW to the hill as well. If we have to fight off an early attack it will give a great defensive bonus in addition to all the other advantages mentioned.

My vote is still for a worker first. Our starting techs just invite early development. I have found it very important to play your civ's strengths in Civ4.

I also agree with the close to home, counter-clockwise scouting. I doubt there are many huts to pop and at this level popping huts is not always pleasant!

Finally, I am strongly in favor of the research order Civ-steve outlined. After that I think we should research the industrial tech at the bottom of the tree. If the Inca are near by it is to our advantage to know were all the metal resources are. Unless I am missing something I don’t see what archery and the spiritual techs will give us right now.

DaviddesJ
May 12, 2006, 09:44 AM
At Monarch, I don't believe we'll ever end up having to defend in our capital (unless maybe our locked-enemy is right near us, which strikes me as unlikely). We'll end up defending in the field to stop pillaging. So I don't really count the extra defense in the capital as significant. But the extra hammer certainly is.

An alternative tech order I could imagine is skipping Animal Husbandry to go straight for Pottery. Get the cottages going right away. But since we know we have Cows, plus we want to look for Horses, that just seems all wrong.

Pushing for religion and then cheap temples could also work. But I'm less of a fan of that approach---and the floodplains really call out for cottages.

Keith Larson
May 12, 2006, 10:08 AM
David,

Come to think of it I have never once had my capital city attacked by the AI. I there something in the code that prevents this?

Keith

DaviddesJ
May 12, 2006, 11:17 AM
Come to think of it I have never once had my capital city attacked by the AI. I there something in the code that prevents this?

Not that I know of. Just that they will compute the probability of success and not attack when it's low. And usually you won't give them a high-probability shot. Plus, your capital usually has high defense and the AI doesn't really use bombardment effectively. Plus, at Monarch we can pretty much expect to be stronger than the AIs throughout (unless they were to rush us early, which they don't do).

Barbarians are a more likely threat. But, as I said, usually you aren't going to want to defend in your capital and let them raze your improvements---that's a last resort. At really high difficulties sometimes you have no choice, but at Monarch, we should be able to stay on top of them in the field.

civ_steve
May 12, 2006, 03:11 PM
Part of me wants to push up the Tech tree after Pottery and go after Writing and the Alphabet - and trade for the other Techs. After all, if we do find Horses nearby, I'd think we'd want to be building a lot of War Chariots, and not too many Axemen. Drawback is delay in ability to Chop.

Is there any strong feeling between building a Warrior or a Worker at first?

Keith Larson
May 12, 2006, 03:20 PM
Steve,

I think there is no question that going all the way to Alphabet is the best move, I was just starting the discussion of what after that? Our starting location makes chopping not as important or desirable.

Keith

DaviddesJ
May 12, 2006, 03:58 PM
I'm fine with Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet. Although there won't necessarily be so much available to trade for when we do get Alphabet---sometimes rushing for it so quickly just leaves you with an unproductive tech and nothing to trade for and you still end up researching basic stuff, which it would have been better to have earlier. So I'm also happy to divert along the way for Hunting or Mining, if it turns out to be important for an improvement.

If we're working the floodplains, then it's 11 turns to grow to size 2, during which we generate 22 hammers, which is basically a warrior. (Unit cost at Epic is 1.5x, right?) Then, at size 2, we generate 6 surplus/turn, which is 15 turns for a worker. That's 26 turns, compared to 18 turns if we do worker-first at size 1 and 5 surplus/turn.

Those 8 turns mean we get the Cow/Pasture 8 turns sooner, which is +24 production. Plus our worker starts the next improvement 8 turns sooner, and the one after that, etc. Against that, it will take 29 turns for us to reach size 2, which means we're losing 1 surplus/turn for 29-11 = 16 turns. Pretty clear that the worker is better. (Unless the extra warrior would have gotten us a good hut. But huts can be bad....)

ainwood
May 12, 2006, 04:52 PM
I'm keen to keep the discussion going, depending on what resources we find (eg - whats over the hills in the fog).

civ_steve
May 13, 2006, 12:03 AM
OK, I'll start us off, and flip a mental coin about the Worker/Warrior as first build. In SGOTM3 we usually did 20 turns for turnset 1, then 10 turns per set after that. Not sure what works well for CIV SG, so I'll aim for somewhere around 15-20. Back shortly (I hope).

civ_steve
May 13, 2006, 01:12 AM
OK, first turn set is in!

4000 BC - the game starts! 223 commerce needed for Animal Husbandry, so if it takes longer than 30 turns, I may as well build Warrior first!
Settler SW - mostly Forest, a couple of Hills revealed
Warrior N - Floodplains and hills as far as the eye can see ... about 1 tile

3970 BC
Found Thebes - ah ah! Rice and Stone are added to the resources we will have access to once culture expands!
hmm - Worker in 18, and AH in 18 - sounds like a match!
vs Grow in 11, Worker in 15, 8 turns delay to get Cow pasturized
Go with Worker first
Warrior N - a 2nd cow is revealed, 3 spaces North of Thebes

3940 BC
Warrior NE, on to hill; Coast up ahead, and appears to be Coast on other side of Mountains

3910 BC
Warrior NW

3880 BC
Warrior N (hills on Coast - nothing to see out at sea)

3850 BC
Borders of Thebes expand - (4 cpt); it appears we are on a peninsula, near the tip; Fish can be seen
Warrior NW - another Cow, and tundra; about as far North as I care to go

3820 BC
Warrior West - forests

3790 BC
Warrior SW - at this point, nothing more to see until reach other side of capital

3760 BC
Warrior W

3730 BC
Warrior S

3700 BC
Warrior S

3670 BC
Warrior SW

3640 BC
Warrior SW

3610 BC
Warrior W - another River ... and Lions (I was wondering if we were all alone!)
I'm in forest, so if they approach, I'll fortify.

(IBT - Lions do approach, over river)

3580 BC
Fortify Warrior in Forest (should be 55% defensive benefit)

(IBT - Lions attack, and we beat them into Lion paste with our clubs)

3550 BC
Warrior is 1.6 strength; I'll pause a couple of turns to get him up to strength

3520 BC
still healing

3490 BC
Full strength - SW; River looks short

3460 BC
Warrior SW - Hills, and more impassible mountains

(IBT - we're not alone! We meet a scout from Catherine of the Russians
We agree not to cut off each other's heads)

3430 BC

Animal Husbandry is learned, on to Pottery next
Worker is finished, and moved to Cows; start on Warrior next.
Alright! We have Horses to the North!
Warrior SW

(IBT some Lions show up to the East)

3400 BC
Warrior SE
Worker starts the Pasture - 6 turns

end of log

I'm attaching a screenshot of our empire from 10,000 feet. Horses to the North, several Cows around, Russian Scout to the West, Lions to the East. Our Warrior is SSW of the Russian Scout (under part of the blue screen).

From our earlier discussion, I don't think the Russian scout is a threat, but our capital is undefended right now. If there's any concern at all, we could work a 2 Hammer forest and get a Warrior out in half the time, at the cost of growth.

Worker is developing the Cow. We started on Pottery. Not sure how many people will be on the starting landmass, but it seems likely we will need ships to achieve Domination (unless there's some thin connections around - possible, but we'll know more with scouting.

That's about it, here is our save from the Results Page:

3400 BC Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC3400_01.Civ4SavedGame)

It does show you the log from your turn set when you upload it; here is that log:



Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3400 BC:


Turn 1, 3970 BC: Thebes has been founded.

Turn 4, 3880 BC: The borders of Thebes have expanded!

Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Peanut's Warrior (3.40)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 14, 3580 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Peanut's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 18, 3460 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

You may wish to copy and paste this into your turn set post to use as a report framework.

Here is the player order - I just added DaviddesJ to the list:

civ_steve - Just Played
ainwood <=== You're UP
MailMan - on deck
Keith Larson
PaulK
DaviddesJ

ainwood - over to you!

To everybody, please post any discussion regarding near or far term strategy. And if anybody would like to set up a city dot map to guide our future settlements, please be my guest!

Paulk
May 13, 2006, 02:03 AM
Good Job Steve. As far as technologies go, once pottery is discovered should we continue with writing-alphabet or should we possibly go for masonry and try to build an early wonder? I would like to go for masonry and attempt to build pyramids for the early civics and the engineer but would really like to hear your guys opinions. Attempting to build wonders is dangerous and can waste production that can be used to conquer Catherine and those damn incas. Once our worker has completed the pasture, farming the rice seems to be a good option. The other possibility would be to spam cottages on the floodplains which has its own distinct advantages. Also what is our capital's specialty going to be? Commerce/production highbred, GP/Wonder factory? (specialization very important, but I don't need to tell you guys) The second city should be to grab the horses and be a great production city (on the grassland/river or plains/river.) Finally has any religions been discovered yet? Would going for a religion be the most beneficial option? Let’s please discuss this as the early game is incredibly important and I would really like to learn what the experts do.
Paul

Keith Larson
May 13, 2006, 07:44 AM
Good turn set Steve! I like the coastal plains tile NW of Thebes. This will give us 1 fish, 2 cows and 1 horse. I would like to work the rice before starting cottages. IMO growth and health are more important than commerce in the early game. I love using the whip! As for Techs my vote is to continue on the writing-alphabet line. I have found that when you bee line to alphabet you usally have someone to trade writing and pottery to. If however, you slow down and pick up some other techs you may still be the only one with alphabet, but you have nothing else to trade because by then the AI has pottery, writing and any techs you slowed down to research. Besides our worker will have his hands full with more important work than connecting stone to Thebes.

DaviddesJ
May 13, 2006, 07:55 AM
3970 BC
Found Thebes - ah ah! Rice and Stone are added to the resources we will have access to once culture expands!
hmm - Worker in 18, and AH in 18 - sounds like a match!

Duh, my math was way off. Sorry---I haven't been playing Civ4 much and I'm pretty busy with other stuff.

If we have Stone, then we should seriously think about Pyramids. We don't have to do it, but we should think about it.

More later. I suggest we wait at least 24 hours before continuing to give people (including me) time to comment on overall strategy.

DaviddesJ
May 13, 2006, 09:04 AM
There's no reason to farm the rice for quite some time (until we need the health and can connect it). The farmed rice, without irrigation, is only 4f, which is less than a farmed floodplain at 4f 1c.

Next improvement should probably be one farm along the river, then some cottages. If we finish the farm before Pottery, then we might build some roads that we will need eventually. You can micromanage road construction to build a "partial road" if you're waiting around for a turn or two with nothing to do. (Indeed, we could have gotten a free "partial road" while moving our first worker from the capital to the cows, so we're already off the optimal development path. :cry: )

I'm not worried about defense. Once the cows come online we'll have plenty of hammers. Of course we will try to start on a Granary soon after Pottery.

It's not even clear that we need any farms. We're going to hit our size limit pretty fast. I'll work out some calculations later.

civ_steve
May 13, 2006, 09:56 AM
Thanks, guys!

(Indeed, we could have gotten a free "partial road" while moving our first worker from the capital to the cows, so we're already off the optimal development path. :cry: )

Very good point, and one of the reasons I'm glad you're on the Team, DaviddesJ! I've only played 2 complete games, so details like this are well received.

I thought about Farming a Floodplains to increase growth, initially. OTOH, we will have pretty fast growth as it is, and we do want to get Cottages going. We have a couple of health resources identified, but no Luxuries yet, so Happiness will be a hard limit soon.

On the sound of it, Keith's suggestion for city #2 looks good. And we expand naturally after 8 turns, so we don't have to build any buildings to get the extended resources.

Looking forward to more discussion. With Catherine available for trade, I feel better about researching to Alphabet. A 3d AI (non-Incan, please) would be even better.

On a personal note, I will be out of touch Monday, back home Tuesday, then out again Wednesday through Saturday evening, so I will have little interaction for the next week.

DaviddesJ
May 13, 2006, 12:28 PM
Just to elaborate on the "partial road". Suppose (as in our case) you want to build an improvement at distance 2 from your current worker position. What you do is move the worker one space, then choose "build road". Then re-select the worker and choose "cancel improvement" (the red X). Then, next turn, you'll be able to move the worker the second space, and start the improvement there at the same time as you would otherwise have. And, whenever you later build a road in the intermediate space, you'll take one turn less to do it.

In fact, we could have built a "partial farm" on the floodplain we moved through to get to the cow (since we already have Agriculture), which would be even better than a "partial road". Then we could return to that after the pasture, and complete a farm there one turn sooner.

ainwood
May 13, 2006, 03:33 PM
OK - posting a 'got it'.

Note that its about 9:30 am on sunday morning here. I can either play later this afternoon (ie in the next 8 hours or so) or leave it until monday evening.

Sounds like the preference is for a bit more discussion - so my current plan is to play in about 32 hours from the post timestamp.

civ_steve
May 14, 2006, 01:12 AM
DaviddesJ - just to clarify, you would give the Worker an action (Road, or Farm), and in the same turn, cancel the action, correct? If I understand the turn workings, if you were to press enter and complete the turn first, the Worker might use the next turn as well before the action could be cancelled. (?)

MailMan
May 14, 2006, 01:42 AM
I think that we took the right path with the worker first. there is a lot of work for him to do.
I would use him next to farm a FP. I agree with KL that food is very important. I also like to use the whip in the early game and our city is great for whipping with all that food and health problems.

Later on we will have 3 possible configuration to the capital:
1. commerce - we could have even 12 towns with some mines to boost production a bit.
2. GP farm - each farmed FP can sustain 1 GP so with the rice and cows we may have 7-8 GP working in the city.
3. production - we have 4 hills + cows and some trees. I can see about 20 base hammers and later on with some workshops about 30-40 base hammers

I am thinking about either option #1 or option #2 (I really would like to try #2 - but I am not sure it is the best).

Near future plans:
crank 3-4 warriors until we reach size 3 and than produce a settler and a second worker.
I really like the plain spot with the 4 resources KL mentioned but a full dot-map should be best.
Regarding research - we might want to pick up sailing to pass the mountain barrier to the east.

DaviddesJ - just to clarify, you would give the Worker an action (Road, or Farm), and in the same turn, cancel the action, correct? If I understand the turn workings, if you were to press enter and complete the turn first, the Worker might use the next turn as well before the action could be cancelled. (?)
This is correct

DaviddesJ
May 14, 2006, 10:40 AM
DaviddesJ - just to clarify, you would give the Worker an action (Road, or Farm), and in the same turn, cancel the action, correct?

Yes, exactly. When you give the order to the worker, it will be automatically deselected in favor of the next unit, so you have to explicitly reselect it (just click on it) to cancel the order. You want to do that the same turn because if you wait until next turn the worker might (especially if you're not careful) perform another turn of improvement before you get around to changing its orders. This can't happen if you cancel the order before ending the previous turn.

If you haven't done this before, you might just start up a test game (with a random map---it doesn't really matter) and play around with doing it a few times until you're comfortable with it.

DaviddesJ
May 14, 2006, 11:45 AM
2. GP farm - each farmed FP can sustain 1 GP so with the rice and cows we may have 7-8 GP working in the city.

It's going to be a long, long, long time before you have 7 GP! We haven't seen any luxuries yet, but maybe you can stack lots of troops here under Hereditary Rule for happiness. But you're going to need roughly +10 health from where we are now. This seems a long ways off. There's also a difficult tradeoff in terms of population growth---if you're running a lot of GP (for the short-term benefits), then you're not growing your population to have more in the longer term.

Let's not forget that we're supposed to be playing for fast domination. I assume that we're going to have to cross oceans, so basically the speed at which we can dominate is going to be constrained by how fast we can get Astronomy. That suggests to me at least one big science city, and this is an obvious location. My inclination is to try to get at least one Great Scientist pretty early (for the Academy) but otherwise to build lots of cottages here.

On the other hand, if we want to get a settler out as quickly as possible, farms will help with that. And if we do that, we're also going to need a second worker pretty soon---we have a lot of tiles to improve.

But before any of this planning, we really need to make a decision about the Pyramids (and wonders in general). E.g., if we're in Representation (vs Hereditary Rule), then, at least for the early game, I think we're going to want many cottages and just a couple of GPs (which the flood plains, cows, and rice will support without extra farms), because we just aren't going to have enough happiness for working all of the floodplains with farms on them.

I'm pretty interested in figuring out whether there's a good 2nd or 3rd city location for building the Pyramids in. I'd be glad to get a Great Engineer, but it's going to be hard if we're going for an early Academy.

There are lots of different issues here---sorry for the disorganized nature of all this.

ainwood
May 14, 2006, 01:59 PM
Re the people suggesting slavery - when should we prioritise bronze working? At the moment, we're looking at the other half of the tech tree. With lots of FPs, I think we can get to writing and have two scientists working on a GS for an academy, and still maintain a growth rate.

Paulk
May 14, 2006, 02:19 PM
About city locations... It seems like we're going to place our second city on the costal plains. So does that mean we're going to eventually want to build a second city on the costal destert square by the most northern mountain? Also would it be wasteful to try to build in the area east of Thebes?

With improvements to the capital so we want to build one or two farm on the floodplains for early growth and settler/worker production then switch to cottages for fps? So how large are we going to grow Thebes until we start pumping out settlers/workers (can someone do calculations to figure the most productive route)? If wanted to have a really commerece city we could have 15 cottages, 1 mine, 1 quarry, 1 pasture, 1 farm, and 1 lake (and still have 1-3 specialists).
Paulk

DaviddesJ
May 14, 2006, 03:18 PM
About city locations... It seems like we're going to place our second city on the costal plains. So does that mean we're going to eventually want to build a second city on the costal destert square by the most northern mountain? Also would it be wasteful to try to build in the area east of Thebes?

It's unlikely to be a good idea to build on the desert spaces without access to fresh water, because the health situation in that city (with no forests, lots of floodplains, and no fresh water bonus) will be pretty awful. I'm not sure where to build. On the desert hill 4E of Thebes is one possibility. On the floodplains 4E 2N is another possibility. The floodplains 4N 3E of Thebes is a very good site, with horses, cows, fresh water, several floodplains, and coast access. But it conflicts somewhat with the idea of building on the other coast, 4N 1W of Thebes.

If wanted to have a really commerece city we could have 15 cottages, 1 mine, 1 quarry, 1 pasture, 1 farm, and 1 lake (and still have 1-3 specialists).

Again, we're not playing a space race. We're trying to dominate the world in 1300 AD (or whatever). Our cities aren't ever going to get that big.

DaviddesJ
May 14, 2006, 08:21 PM
OK, I thought about this some more. I still see cottages as more important than farms. Eventually we're going to reach size 5, and even with 2 Great Scientists (after Library), we're going to have positive food with 2 GS + Cows + 2 Floodplains (that's 11 food for 5 people). Or GS + Stone + Cows + 2 Floodplains is the same. We're going to want to be working a couple of floodplains/cottages, so we might as well start them as soon as possible so they get big.

However, we have 12 more worker turns before we can even start cottaging, and we can finish the cow pasture in 5 turns, and build a farm in 8 more turns, for 13 total. So I think it certainly makes sense to delay the first cottage by just 1 turn, in exchange for getting a farm to work right away.

My suggestion is that we build the farm NE of the cows, across the river. That way, if we eventually build a city to the east, we might swap the farm across to the new city (when our capital doesn't need the growth anyway).

After that, we can either stay on the east of the river to build cottages (on the theory that that gives us the flexibility to swap them to a new city later), or we can build cottages on the west of the river (on the theory that we might eventually want to build farms on the east). I lean toward the former.

DaviddesJ
May 14, 2006, 08:35 PM
Hey, here's another, completely different idea. Suppose we start building a settler as soon as we reach size 2. I think this gets us the settler 6 turns earlier than if we wait to grow to size 3. We put the settler near the horses and connect them up quickly. Then we build War Chariots and blitz Catherine.

If we want to go this way, I think we should finish the second warrior and then start prebuilding a barracks. When we reach size 2, switch from barracks to settler. The worker builds one farm and then maybe one cottage or the rice farm (just for future value---we won't be working it for a while), then some roads that we'll need to connect the two rivers, and the horses to the river. When the settler is done, switch back to barracks while we hook up the horses. When we found the city, the worker is ready to build a pasture on the horses. Hopefully, finish the barracks around the time we connect horses, start pumping out war chariots, and attack.

(The barracks is not even that important, I think---it's just that we can build it if we don't have anything better to do. I'd actually also be fine with just building a granary, skipping the barracks, and attacking with unpromoted War Chariots.)

Does this appeal to anyone? I think it could be pretty effective. Perhaps we should chop even more forests than I'm saying---the faster we get the War Chariots out, the sooner we can attack, plus the less prepared she will be.

Plus I like the idea of using our UU. If we don't build War Chariots fairly early, we may never bother with them.

Of course, the peaceful route is fine, too.

(Edit: deleted silly comments about chopping forests without BW.)

DaviddesJ
May 14, 2006, 08:40 PM
Regarding research - we might want to pick up sailing to pass the mountain barrier to the east.

I don't think there's anything but water on the other side of the mountains.

MailMan
May 15, 2006, 12:54 AM
I like the war chariots blitz idea.

We first should check if we actually can declare war on the Russians (we are locked with always peach with one of the AIs)

As I mentioned I also think that the cottages are the way to go for our capital, but one farm as DaviddesJ suggested is a very good idea, it help us get the settler sooner and allow more flexibility.

We might want to consider cranking up a second worker

I do not think we should go for an early wonder. It is too much risk at that level with rather small benefits to my liking. It is far better to have 9 war chariots than the pyramids

ainwood
May 15, 2006, 02:23 AM
OK - looks like it will be an uneventful turn-set -> Not much to do but explore & wait.

Turn 1: Hmm. Not sure which way to send the warrior - he's at a fork. I decide on SE (not as 'out-of-the-way', and its traversing hills).
The coast continues to bend east - looks like its the end of the lobe.

Turn 2: 3340 BC;
Warrior confirms its a small lobe - but finds sugar.

Turn 3: 3310 BC - warrior heads back to take other fork. Is that where the russians are?

Turn 4: 3280 BC: Running out of things to say here....

Turn 5: 3250 BC: Complete the pasture. The governer hasn't changed production, so I do it manually. I really should pay more attention to what the governer does & the inter-turn mechanics. I'm fairly sure that the governer does change the assignment on the interturn, but I need to check. Anyhow - cows are on the river, so they're conected (health = 7; 3 Mr Icks.)

Turn 6: 3220 BC: Follow the suggestion of a farm on the other side of the river. 10 turns to complete (I'm not used to Epic!) Warrior finds clams.

Turn 7: 3190 BC: Complete warrior. Agree that we shouldn't start a settler until size 2. A barracks pre-build is as good as any, although we may lose a couple of 'decay' hammers if we pause to crank-out too many settlers. Could damned-near get a second warrior to explore the east flank. On reflection - I decide to do that, noting that once we get to size 2, we can work the stone for one turn to complete the warrior, then start straight on settler - warrior provides escort (which may not be needed this early), or it goes exploring. First warrior finds more horses & gems - this really is a resource-rich land!

Turn 8: 3160 BC: Second gems spotted - and the russian border. Looks like catherine is surrounded by jungle, so we should have a good approach if we are to blitz her. Might want to take a worker to road it, though.

Turn 9: Thebes grows next turn.

Turn 10: See catherine has (a third supply!) of gems hooked-up. If we raze moscow, there is a city radius that could have 3 gems, rice, horses & a couple of hills (or lose rice for a coastal tile). Could be a great science city.

Current status: Thebes has just grown to size 2. Building a warrior, 15/22 hammers, with 2 turns left. Currently working pasture + grassland forest (grow in 12). The worker is building a farm, but will take another 6 turns. Pottery is 2 turns away.

I suggest that we work the stone for a turn to complete the warrior, then get on with a settler. For the first warrior, I'd like to see more of catherine's land - may be helpful to know if she has resources later (especially metals for spears if we're going for chariots).


>>SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC3100_01.Civ4SavedGame)<<

DaviddesJ
May 15, 2006, 02:32 AM
Turn 6: 3220 BC: Follow the suggestion of a farm on the other side of the river. 10 turns to complete (I'm not used to Epic!)

Ick. I remembered Epic, but forgot about the Desert cost. We could interrupt the farm to start a cottage a few turns sooner, but that won't make sense, certainly, if we're trying to get a settler out.

I'll look the new map over and post further thoughts. Suggest (again) we take our time before the next player goes---there are some key decisions to make soon.

MailMan
May 15, 2006, 02:35 AM
I got it. Will probably play in 10 hours or so, unless you want to have more discussions before that.

Current plan: finish warrior in 1 and start settler. send the warrior as fog buster for the settler. start research writing

Edit: cross-posted with DaviddesJ - it seems that we want more discussion ...

DaviddesJ
May 15, 2006, 03:05 AM
I'd rather delay an extra 24 hours for another round of discussion, if that's ok with everyone. Also would like to give people a chance to chime in on overall direction, as there are several reasonable possibilities that have been suggested.

If we want to finish the warrior in 1, I suggest we work the forest/plains in place of the stone.

It seems that we can declare war on Catherine (at least, I'm seeing the option when I load the save file). Attacking her is looking more attractive now that I see those gems. On the other hand, there's some downside if we're wiping out the only AI on our continent (leaving no one to trade with). It looks like it's 10 turns movement for a War Chariot from Thebes to her capital. Can reduce that to 9 by building a single road SW of Thebes.

If we're going to start the settler now (well, in 1 turn) we should decide where it's going. A big question: if we're in a hurry to connect the horses, do we want to put our 2nd city next to the horses so we don't need to wait 8 turns for cultural expansion before building a pasture? Or, even put it on the horses, so we don't even need to build the pasture?? I hate to walk away from those fine fish, but, we can pick them up later with a city 3W 2N of Thebes, if we really want to.

If we wait for cultural expansion, that gives us just about enough time to build a barracks, if we want to. Barracks will take 18 turns at 5h/turn. Settler will take 3 turns to settle, 8 turns to expand borders, then we need 6 turns for pasture (I think), that's 17 total. This lets Thebes go for max growth; we can then switch to emphasize production when we start cranking WCs.

That gives us 1+16+18 = 35 turns before we need to have Horses connected. If we're going for the fast settler and then war chariots, I suggest this: 5 turns to finish the Farm at 2E 1S, 1 turn moving, 4 turns for a Road at 2E 1N (connecting the rivers), 1 turn moving, 3 turns for a Road at 1E 4N, 3 turns for a Road at 1E 5N, 3 turns for a Road at 4N, 6 turns for a Pasture at 4N (on the cows), 6 turns for a Pasture at 1E 5N (on the horses). That gives us both cities and the horses connected, and cows and horses available for city 2 to work, in 5+1+4+1+3+3+3+6+6 = 32 turns. Maybe we can build another Road somewhere along the way (if I haven't miscalculated). This skips cottages near Thebes for now (because if we're going for the chariot rush then production and connections are more important, not to mention the improvements that will make our early 2nd city actually useful).

DaviddesJ
May 15, 2006, 03:31 AM
For the first warrior, I'd like to see more of catherine's land - may be helpful to know if she has resources later (especially metals for spears if we're going for chariots).

We aren't going to know that unless we prioritize Bronze Working and Iron Working, ourselves.

If we're going for the chariot rush, then we should rethink whether Writing, then Alphabet, makes sense. Upside is that Catherine will probably trade us some techs, before we kill her. Downside is that we aren't researching stuff that would help us build our army faster, like Bronze Working and Masonry.

MailMan
May 15, 2006, 06:56 AM
B.T.W - I looked at the graphs at the submission page to try and learn what other teams done for opening plays.

- I think that only one team settled on place (or at least on the first turn) - Queens Men. This is by looking at the culture graph.

- 2/3 of the teams started with building a worker, I think the following teams started with building a warrior (by looking at the power graph): Chaos, Fifth element, Lunatics, madviking, Memphis Blues, Rat Pack, Team One.

The above is just a guess

MailMan
May 15, 2006, 01:26 PM
Since I knew it going to be a very boring turnset - I played tonight.
Nothing much happened:

1. 3070BC
Buddhism FIDAL
a lion near by ate a Russian scout
I am sending the newly created warrior to deal with the wounded lion and than I will send him to be a fog buster up north

2. 3040BC
Pottery --> writing (16)

3. 3010BC
the warrior defeated the wounded lion

4. 2980BC
I think that Russia can only expand our way

5. 2950BC
zzz

6. 2920BC
notice that Russia can also expand south and Moscow has 2 archers
the worker finished the farm and spent 1 turn on building a cottage 1N of the farm

7. 2890BC
the worker start on a road to connect the rivers
send the warrior in Russia back of for some barbs defense

8. 2860BC
the borders of Moscow just got expanded which resulted with a flying warrior that was just bounced over the water onto a forested hill south west of our capital. On that hill the flying warrior feasted on a lion in order to get back the energy the flying exercise took. that energy manifested in a knowledge of fighting in forests and jungles (woodsman I promotion).

9. 2830BC
Our borders expanded

10. 2800BC
The northern warrior defeated a wolf
the worker finished the road.

The SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC2800_01.Civ4SavedGame)


Turn 30, 3100 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 31, 3070 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 33, 3010 BC: Peanut's Warrior (2.00) vs Barbarian's Lion (0.53)
Turn 33, 3010 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 33, 3010 BC: (Animal Combat: -20%)
Turn 33, 3010 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 26 (6/100HP)
Turn 33, 3010 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 33, 3010 BC: Peanut's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Peanut's Warrior (3.90)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Combat Odds: 1.0%
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Peanut's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 38, 2860 BC: The borders of Thebes have expanded!

Turn 39, 2830 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Peanut's Warrior (3.40)
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 39, 2830 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 39, 2830 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 35 (65/100HP)
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 35 (30/100HP)
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 35 (0/100HP)
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Peanut's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!
Turn 39, 2830 BC: While defending, your Warrior has killed a Barbarian Wolf!

DaviddesJ
May 15, 2006, 01:51 PM
Interesting--I think this is the most tense and exciting time, not boring at all. We have already made many key decisions that will have more effect on our results than most decisions later on, when more is happening but for the same reason no one decision has a big impact.

I'm somewhat doubtful about Writing vs Mining -> Masonry -> Bronze Working, given the trajectory we seem to be on (which isn't going to prioritize a Library for a long time?). I'd be more inclined to buy the techs that will help us build up. Still not clear whether we will find anyone else to trade with? If we are alone with Catherine, she probably won't trade us much of value.

ainwood
May 15, 2006, 02:26 PM
Moscow is further south than I expected - forgot catherine was creative.

Re finding the location of her metals, we might be able to see what the workers are doing, but yes, if we're not prioritising bronze working, then its difficult (probably won't know until we see spears or axes). Catherine does start with both hunting & mining, so she will probably prioritise spears.


I'm somewhat doubtful about Writing vs Mining -> Masonry -> Bronze Working, given the trajectory we seem to be on (which isn't going to prioritize a Library for a long time?). I'd be more inclined to buy the techs that will help us build up. Still not clear whether we will find anyone else to trade with? If we are alone with Catherine, she probably won't trade us much of value.

If we don't get alphabet, we won't be trading techs with her anyway. I agree that we need to be clear about which direction we're going in, and don't want to research ourselves into a half-way house. We are half-way to writing though, so completing it isn't too far out of our way if we choose the military route.

The calcs to date for the war option are to only have 2 cities. From the lay of the land, we have some great city locations - I think we should have three cities before we go on the war-path. This would allow us a bit more time to grab a library in Thebes and start on a GS for an academy. The main risk is that Catherine get more troops, and the delay in attacking her can be offset with more troops of our own in the form of more cities to produce them. I do note that cathrine has at least two mines already, and with cows she probably has good shield production.

What are people's thoughts on long-term trading with catherine? I've always found her quite difficult to trade with - not in tokugawa's league, but she seems hard to keep happy.


Edit - maybe there's someone to the south of her? A detour via sailing to get a galley out? (lower priority, but it would be nice to know before we play the xenophobe card on our only known competition).

DaviddesJ
May 15, 2006, 02:51 PM
The calcs to date for the war option are to only have 2 cities. From the lay of the land, we have some great city locations - I think we should have three cities before we go on the war-path. This would allow us a bit more time to grab a library in Thebes and start on a GS for an academy. The main risk is that Catherine get more troops, and the delay in attacking her can be offset with more troops of our own in the form of more cities to produce them.

I don't believe we're going to produce more troops with more cities. A settler is going to require 150 shields, which is 4 WCs already. Then the new city will have to grow before it's ready to make anything. It certainly won't have a barracks for a long time so it will be making unpromoted troops (not that the promotion is so important for WCs, since they can't get city attack, I think). We'll probably need a second worker to make these cities productive, which is another 3 WCs.

My guess is that we only need 6-8 WCs to march in and take her out. We can get there with two cities much faster than building a third.

With a different civ I would play very differently; I just like the idea of leveraging the particular advantage of Egypt. But it's a "more fun" analysis, rather than a "must do" analysis; if we want to build up and let her also build up so we have more cities to take, that's ok too. She's going to develop a tech edge over us, with all of those gems, though.

As I said, if there's no one else on our continent then I predict we get almost no useful techs from her. The AI is too reluctant to trade "monopolies". If she has more neighbors, then Alphabet may be worth more. We may not be able to figure this out.

If we're doing the early WC rush, then Writing by itself is of minimal value. Personally I would have chosen Mining, and I would now switch to Mining. We can save our progress toward Writing, after all, and finish it whenever we feel we're within 6-8 turns of actually starting a Library. On the other hand, if we're going to skip the WC rush, then finishing Writing and building a Library in Thebes (instead of Barracks or Granary) is perfectly logical. But then we should be building cottages with our worker, not roads for the horses. This is why I'm uncomfortable with the speed with which we're playing and making decisions---we're doing stuff that makes sense only if we're going in certain directions, which we haven't necessarily agreed on yet. I think we can go in any of several directions, but I'd like us to try to be consistent.

civ_steve
May 15, 2006, 11:30 PM
civ_steve checking in (while out of town).

I like the WC, but is it very useful in a 'continents' type of game? I have to assume that Gyathaar has balanced this game so that Domination and Diplomacy are roughly equal in terms of game time. So I don't believe we will find a lot of civs on our chunk of land.

If we have to cross the seas to take out other civs, will the WC do us much good or is it too weak? I ask this because if the other civs are overseas, and the WC isn't that effective, I'm not sure how much effort we should devote to getting them early on. If Catherine is the only other civ on our starting landmass (not known), do we hurt ourselves substantially by taking out our only initial, possible trading partner? Would this be similar to Civ3 where the more civs you know who knew a Tech, the easier to trade for it? (In my limited experience, it's more like increasing your odds that someone will trade, rather than reducing the cost.)

So we could spend time and effort to take out Catherine, which might delay us somewhat (or a lot) in finding other AI's, and slowing our Tech progress in research and trading. This is in opposition to our WCs losing effect as the game progresses.

I'm inclined to play more of a research game at the moment, and to search out whatever AI are out there. Writing gives potential for Open Borders, so we can clearly see what's in and behind Catherine. I would suggest we continue on to Alphabet. By the time we have learned that, we should know for certain if it's just us and Catherine. If so, I would be willing to trade even Alphabet for whatever we can get from her; after all, there is no one else for her to trade with so there's no harm as long as we get a good value. Then we can build up to take her out, if it makes sense, or keep her to help us research our way off the landmass. If there are more AI than Catherine, we will have more civs to trade with and we keep Alphabet for the time being.

If we are alone with Catherine, and if there are 3 or 4 such groups of civ-pairs, especially if they are separated by ocean, how long before we can make contact? If this is the likely case, and getting off-shore is one of the key points to the game, I would suggest we focus on the best path to do that.

DaviddesJ
May 15, 2006, 11:49 PM
I have to assume that Gyathaar has balanced this game so that Domination and Diplomacy are roughly equal in terms of game time.

I think that's impossible. I'll offer 2:1 odds that the 5 fastest wins are all Domination, and 10:1 odds that the fastest win is.

If we have to cross the seas to take out other civs, will the WC do us much good or is it too weak? I ask this because if the other civs are overseas, and the WC isn't that effective, I'm not sure how much effort we should devote to getting them early on.

Obviously, we're not going to attack overseas with WCs---by the time we can get to other lands, they are long obsolete. The question is, if Catherine is the only other one on our landmass, do we gain more by taking her out early or late? In GOTM1 (admittedly at Noble difficulty so quite different) I think simply killing the Greeks at the earliest opportunity, and then developing the continent unmolested, was the best approach. You simply don't gain that much by trading with one other AI, because they won't give you many useful techs (in my experience). Plus the fact that Catherine has the gems, and we don't, is a pretty strong reason to attack.

If there are others on our landmass (with Catherine between us) then that's even a stronger reason. We should be able to find out once we get Writing and Open Borders (which is one good reason for finishing Writing---although we really need to set our direction now, imho).

So we could spend time and effort to take out Catherine, which might delay us somewhat (or a lot) in finding other AI's, and slowing our Tech progress in research and trading.

I don't quite understand this part. Either there are others on our landmass, or not. Whether we attack Catherine isn't going to affect whether we find them. If we're alone on the continent, I think we will get to Astronomy (quite a bit) sooner by taking out Catherine asap, and then growing unmolested, than by sharing the land with her, or attacking later. If there are others on the other side of Catherine, I still think the same.

My own guess is that Catherine is in the middle and there's at least one other civ on the other side of her landbridge. But, of course, that's just a guess.

If we're going to attack Catherine with WCs, then I strongly believe that the sooner we do that the better---her defenses will be much less and I'm so much happier attacking Archers than Spearmen and Axemen. If we're going to try to out-tech her in the medium term, despite her gems and our lack of luxuries, then I strongly believe that we need to concentrate on cottaging up our capital and getting our commerce and science up. So these are two pretty different directions, and we need to pick one before the next set of moves (actually, I think we really should have picked before the last set---we played as if we're going for the WCs, not the cottages, and we've already cost ourselves quite a bit if we backtrack on that).

Anyway, I vote for the WCs, following the general schedule I described in #46. (It would be nice if someone would double-check my turn counts. And think about what we should do with the few extra turns. Note we can't build the horse pasture ahead of schedule, because we can't start it until we have cultural expansion from our 2nd city, assuming we're putting the 2nd city on the coast.)

MailMan
May 16, 2006, 01:39 AM
I am very sorry that I played so soon without a proper discussion.

I like the WC rush idea, however I think we can finish research writing and get OB in order to use the time until we get our army ready to scout her backyard.

I also attached proposed city locations - please comment.

In the case that we are on a small landmass with Russia, we are better off without her. If we are on a large landmass with her, we may be better off with her - so scouting is important!

DaviddesJ
May 16, 2006, 01:50 AM
I also attached proposed city locations - please comment.

I just don't see the blue and orange dots as viable. In the desert, no fresh water, with -2 and -3 health penalties for deserts (respectively), the blue dot will be unhealthy as soon as it reaches size 2, and the orange dot will be unhealthy at size 1! Sure, we'll have a few health resources, but these cities will be very constrained by poor health.

MailMan
May 16, 2006, 01:58 AM
I do not see FP as a health penalty, rather as a 1/2 food bonus over grassland (jungles on the other hand...).

What I mean is that unless the city is very unhealthy from the first pop point, we can just work the FP to offset the health problems.

Note that until we found those cities we will have 4 food resources: cow, rice, fish and crabs (I think it is crab in the orange city range). the fish and crabs worth double for coastal cities that can build harbors.

DaviddesJ
May 16, 2006, 02:11 AM
Well, we can wait and see. It depends to some extent on when we build them. I hate to give up the +2 health from buiding on fresh water. But maybe I'm overvaluing that---I see the other side, too.

P.S. Those are clams, 2S from the orange dot. Note there are also clams near Catherine---we haven't seen any crabs yet.

civ_steve
May 16, 2006, 01:17 PM
@DaviddesJ - my comment about delaying contact with the other AIs is if they are off-shore. This is another way of saying "let's decide which path to take" and I think we're all agreed on that.

I am deferring to your experience - let's take out Catherine with WC's, then build our empire unmolested (unless there's someone else behind her.)

A reminder - I'm out until the weekend. Good Luck!

(PS - I like the light blue site to the West. Rather than the Pink dot, perhaps on the River (plains space 3 to the right of the Pink dot; gets the health advantage of the river, several Floodplains and hills spaces, both Cows and horse - potential for very strong city with only one space overlap with the Capital. Found another city on the coast later for Fish)

Paulk
May 16, 2006, 04:03 PM
(PS - I like the light blue site to the West. Rather than the Pink dot, perhaps on the River (plains space 3 to the right of the Pink dot; gets the health advantage of the river, several Floodplains and hills spaces, both Cows and horse - potential for very strong city with only one space overlap with the Capital. Found another city on the coast later for Fish)

I suggested that on post #25 but everyone shut me down and said the costal city was better.

The second city should be able to grab the horses and be a great production city (on the grassland/river or plains/river.)

I think it would be better to have 1 great city in that location instead of 2 average ones in the same area.

Paulk

DaviddesJ
May 16, 2006, 05:32 PM
I'm fine with building on the grasslands/river just south of the horses, if that's what we prefer. This is the discussion I wanted to have when I said we should figure out where to put the second city, so we can schedule what our worker should be doing. If we're going to build on the grasslands/river, then we should put a pasture on the cows to the south (which are already in our cultural borders) before founding the new city, so it can work that improved space immediately.

I hate to give up the fish, but, it's true that we're getting 4 floodplains, and fresh water, in compensation.

I think the grasslands south of the horses are better than the plains SE of the horses. More forests, fewer deserts---just a generally better location. Only downside is that it makes it difficult to connect the fishes later on.

DaviddesJ
May 16, 2006, 05:34 PM
I am deferring to your experience - let's take out Catherine with WC's, then build our empire unmolested (unless there's someone else behind her.)

I don't have that much experience---most people here have probably played more Civ4 games than me.

I do have an analytical nature so I can work out the consequences of particular decisions. But if other people have opinions from experience with the game (like: Catherine is generally hard to deal with), those opinions are likely to be more well-informed than mine.

Paulk
May 16, 2006, 10:26 PM
Are we going to do an early WC rush?

If yes than building on the grassland river is the best location. It gives us horses way sooner. What we can do is once the settler is complete start construction of a barracks. It will take 3 turns for the settler to reach this spot. 3+6=9 turns for settler to reach this spot. The worker can move N one and prebuild a farm for one turn. Next move to the cows and build a pasture for 7 turns. Next move one NW and prebuild a road for one turn. Finally move one NW, prebuild road for one turn and then start building a pasture for the horses. 1+6+1+1=9 until city built and started construction for a pasture.
Plus the 6+2=8 turns for pasture and road to horses. A total of 17 turns for horses to be connected to Thebes.

In Thebes once the settler is done we can start construction of a barracks. If we work the farm and pasture we will grow in 7 turns and make 5h so thats 35 h+any overflow from the settler. Once we grow to population 3 we will start working another floodplain. Work this flood plain for 6 turns; which will get us to population 4. Once we hit pop 4 we switch from the floodplains to the grassland forest and with the new pop start working the stone. This will complete the barracks in 17 turns.

This will mean that the barracks is completed, Thebes is at 4 population, and the horses are connected to Thebes. This means we can start pumping out WCs upgraged out of Thebes. We will be procucing each WC in 3-4 turns depending on the amount of overflow if we work stone and plains forset. We will also eventually grow to Pop 5 and increase our WC production further.

There is what I would like to do if we are going to do a WC rush. So it will take approximately 45 turns from this point to build a barracks hook up horses and produce 8 WCs. (we might be able to take out Catherine with 7.)

For the worker once the horses are hooked we can have him finish the other cow pasture and then have him build some cottages along floodplains (until we get some more technologies). Also I think we should take our chance with researching alphabet and rushing. If we are only with Catherine we might possibly weaken her to the point of destruction and then get as many technologies as possible. Then 10 turns later finish Catherine off. IF there are other civs south of Russia we will be able to trade with them after the destruction of Catherine. There is my choice for our direction and a few calculations (somebody check my math for accuracy).
Paulk

P.S. we can check to see if there is anyone south of Catherine with an open boarders agreement.

MailMan
May 17, 2006, 12:38 AM
Re: city locations - I still think my proposed dot map is the best we can do with the land we got.

My experience tell me that health issues are of much less importance than happiness issues.
Note that in the long run the coastal locations with no fresh water is better than the inland/fresh water location due to harbor than gain us at least +2 health and 50% increase to trade routes.
According to the current known layout of the map, we will need a strong navy which our coastal cities can provide.

With the proposed city location in the plains on the river I really do not see and good city location that can grab the fish and therefore we will waste the fish.

I think that both the pink and the blue dots will be great city locations (rather than average ones).
The blue dot should be production city, farm all the FP and mine all the hills will let us work all the 4 hills (15h) and maybe watermill on the plains and all the sea squares.

pink dot - GP farm - we can have up to 5 specialists. excess food: fish(4) +cows(1+2) + grassland farms(1+1+1).

orange dot - commerce (at least 5 towns + sea tiles)

light blue - commerce / production

DaviddesJ
May 17, 2006, 03:48 AM
I more or less agree with Paulk, but I haven't checked his math. I like the idea of the grassland river city, because as a single city it will be better than the coastal city (the 4 extra floodplains are worth more than the fish), and it will get going significantly faster, and it will connect the horses faster. Having this city be good quickly is way more important, imho, than whether it can build a harbor eventually. Since we're depending on it to pump stuff out while our capital builds the WCs.

I think it's acceptable to plan to use the fish by eventually putting a city 2S of the fish, with access to fish and cows. The light blue dot on the river, with only one resource tile in its range, isn't particularly exciting, so moving that city to use the fish seems fine, to me.

MailMan
May 17, 2006, 05:43 AM
The city location will affect us for a very long time (i.e. all the game) I really think we should found 2 cities in the north rather than 1.

Paulk
May 17, 2006, 07:57 AM
Since this could be one of the most importnat decisions in this game we need to discuss what the advantages/disadvantges of each choice and what we plan to do with each choice (ie. WC rush, Better Researching locations).

Paulk
May 17, 2006, 08:22 AM
I realize that in the long run the plan you have suggested would be the better choice. But right now I think we need better production and quicker access to horses. With your plan it doesn't seem very productive right now; especially since we don't have fishing yet. Like a GP factory is nice, but with the direction that we are going right now building our second city on the grassland river seems to be the best for an early WC rush.

Here is a potential City dot map.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127048&stc=1&d=1147875685

DaviddesJ
May 17, 2006, 09:37 AM
Oops! I hadn't noticed until just now that Moscow is on a hill! That's going to make the attack a lot less fun---archers defending at 7.2 against our WCs, right? I always get confused about how the combat bonuses actually combine, but I think they get +40% for culture, +50% for city defense, +25% for hills, +25% for hills defense. Compared to only 5.7 if there were no hills.

I wish they weren't on the hill, but we're going to have to do it sooner or later. Waiting requires more patience than I have. :-)

Anyone have any ideas for how we should make a decision? At some point, should we have a "vote"?

MailMan
May 17, 2006, 10:24 AM
archers on hill get 2 bonuses: 25% from being an archer on a hill + 25% that all the other defense units get (tile defense).

archer in a city on hill with 40% culture bonus should be:
3 * (0.4 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.25) = 7.2
on flatland:
3 * (0.4 + 0.5) = 5.7

by the time we get there, the arches might be promoted with city garrison:
3 * (0.4 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.2) = 7.8

and do not forget that archers has first strike ability.

We will roughly need 3 WC per archer!

Anyone have any ideas for how we should make a decision? At some point, should we have a "vote"?
I think the general rule in Peanut's team that the one who plays the actual turns gets to choose what to do. I am not sure about that since most of the time we manged to reach a consensus after the discussion.

DaviddesJ
May 17, 2006, 10:31 AM
and do not forget that archers has first strike ability. We will roughly need 3 WC per archer!

WCs are immune to first strikes---this is part of the point of the unit. Our WCs should have Combat 1, which gives us 5.5 to the defending 7.2. Our first couple of WCs should be able to come off the production lines and find a barb somewhere to kill to get a 2nd promotion (which should be Combat 2) while we build the rest of our force. I think a lv2 WC plus a lv3 WC should generally be enough for one archer.

I think the general rule in Peanut's team that the one who plays the actual turns gets to choose what to do.

I'm all for that. No trying to tell other people what to do (I apologize if I've been guilty of that). Nevertheless I think now is a good time to try to form a consensus on one primary plan:

1. Prepare for earliest feasible rush with WCs, unless we learn something that changes our minds.

2. Prepare for a later WC rush, perhaps after building up to 3-4 cities. Expecting to have to face bigger defenders but since WCs are cheap we can just bring a huge number of them.

3. Just play builder for now, and eventually plan on a later attack with Swordsmen or Macemen.

IMHO a good idea would be to try to get everyone to "vote" for one (or more) of these, and see if we can form a general consensus.

I'd vote for #1, primarily because I think it's "more interesting" use of the Egyptian UU, and because I think Catherine is going to be much more annoying than useful if we don't do something early.

But I think any of the plans can work ok, so if there's a consensus for a different plan I'm happy to climb onboard.

DaviddesJ
May 17, 2006, 10:36 AM
Another conceivable alternative is to try to put our 2nd city on the isthmus near Catherine, and block her in. Don't attack her, refuse to give Open Borders, and defend if she attacks. I'm not all that enthusiastic about this plan, but I thought I should mention it.

Paulk
May 17, 2006, 04:21 PM
Eventually I would like to build a city on the isthmus desert square creating a canal (but not for the first city). I wouldn't be suprised if we are on a long snaky continent and ice might possibly blocking off the North. My vote would be for option #1. Paulk

Keith Larson
May 17, 2006, 04:30 PM
I see that mailman played his turn set yesterday. I will try to play mine tonight or tommorrow evening. I will not get home until 8:30 PM this evening, so I can promise that I will complete all ten turns until tommorrow.

Keith

MailMan
May 18, 2006, 01:55 AM
I generally vote for #1, but I would not compromise future city locations for that.
I would settle on the plain square by the sea that gets us the fish, while our capital work on barracks. The worker should aim to connect the horses ASAP (road first and than pasture).

The second city can start on a second worker.
A second worker will come in handy for to reasons:
1. help setting up all the tile improvements faster.
2. road toward Russia to get our forces there faster

I would send the southern warrior back toward Russia in order to pass her using open borders.

DaviddesJ
May 18, 2006, 02:09 AM
I generally vote for #1, but I would not compromise future city locations for that. I would settle on the plain square by the sea that gets us the fish, while our capital work on barracks.

I guess I think the coast is an actually worse location, both in the short and long term. Much worse in the short term, slightly worse in the long term.

[P.S. A significant short-term advantage comes from using our worker to improve the cows that are already within our borders, before we settle the city. So we would want to start doing that on this next turn cycle, as well as the roads for connecting the horses.]

I don't see packing in more cities as very important, if we are going to actually attack Russia. We'll likely conquer the world before filling up our land.

The second city can start on a second worker.

Surely we have to grow to size 3 first, to work the 3 resource tiles? (Not counting the fish, even if we are on the coast, since we won't have Fishing for a while---although, if we do settle there, I'd be happy to prioritize Fishing so we can grow the city while building a workboat.)

Phabuk
May 18, 2006, 06:32 AM
Hi,

sorry for not post sooner but I was on holidays and had no access to a computer.

I am GMT +1

Hope it is still possible to participate

Keith Larson
May 18, 2006, 03:41 PM
I think we are at a very important point here and I would like a little more consensus before I do my turn set. My vote it #1 early WC rush and I am leaning towards the second dot layout map, with the dark blue dot on the river. We might be able to pick up fish from another location and as the map show we can always build on the green dot.

Anymore input before I begin? I can play in about 5 hours or can delay until tomorrow evening. Speak now or forever hold your peace!

ainwood
May 18, 2006, 04:13 PM
I'm keen on the WC rush - and on reflection, the sooner the better. "Overwhelming numbers" will probably be the order-of-the-day - if catherine gets spears, we're in huge trouble - so maybe we should try to grab bronze working?

The other benefit from sooner-rather-then-later (aside from reduced defenders) is that I really like the look of those 3-gems. With a library and an academy, thats (3*7*1.75) = 36 beakers fairly early on.

Keith Larson
May 18, 2006, 05:29 PM
1. 2770BC

Worker moves N and pre-builds farm. Northern Warrior heals. Southern Warrior on Barb patrol, but do move SE to un-fog sea tile.

2. 2740BC

Worker moves to cows and starts pasture. Northern Warrior promotes to woodsmen 1 and heads north. See wolf on hill. Southern Warrior on patrol.

3. 2710BC
N warrior kills wolf, wounded, but will move NE to heal in woods. Catharine has BW and adopts slavery.

4. 2680BC
Nothing new.

5. 2650BC
Nothing new.

6. 2620BC
S Warrior see borders of 2nd Russian city.

7. 2590BC
Settler built and start Barracks. Settler moves…
S warrior discovers St. Pet is on hill S of cows, just north of Moscow.
I have to go to a meeting this evening. You have about 3 hours before I am back.

Paulk
May 18, 2006, 08:33 PM
BW thats not good, hopefully she doesn't have copper near mosscow. IF she does have copper we might need to get a few WC over there and pillage the lands. If we prevent her from having copper than at best she will have archers battling in the field potentially 3.0 vs 5.5. Worse case scenario is that she has bronze hooked up quickly and builds a spearmen. Then we will have to go builder untill we have BW.

Paulk
May 18, 2006, 08:40 PM
@Phabuck - I would suggest private messaging AlanH and see what he says.

Keith Larson
May 18, 2006, 10:33 PM
7. 2590BC
Settler built and start Barracks. Settler moves toward river site.
S warrior discovers St. Pet is on hill S of cows, just north of Moscow.
I have to go to a meeting this evening. You have about 3 hours before I am back.
N warrior moves to protect settler.

8. 2560BC
Learn Writing, start Mining.
Hinduism founded in a distant land.
Worker pre-builds road on second cow.

9. 2530BC
Memphis founded. Worker starts pasture on horses. Worker started in Memphis. Open borders with Cathy. Move S warrior to explore her lands.

10. 2500BC
Nothing of interest.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC2500_01.Civ4SavedGame

DaviddesJ
May 18, 2006, 10:53 PM
@Phabuck - I would suggest private messaging AlanH and see what he says.

Or post in the maintenance thread. I'm not sure what he will want you/us to do, best is to ask.

Paulk
May 18, 2006, 11:16 PM
I guess I am up to bat. Another 24-48 hour discussion period should be in order. I won't be able to play for 48 hours from this post; but I will play immeditaly once I return from my trip.
Paulk

DaviddesJ
May 19, 2006, 09:56 PM
I really don't like building a worker in Memphis, instead of growing to size 3 first. At size 3 we could build the worker in just 7 turns! I'd much prefer to be building a Granary (which will be quite useful when we get Slavery).

Paulk
May 20, 2006, 06:14 PM
I agree, I will change to a Granary immediately. And will contunue to research mining and then to BW. Build barracks in THebes. Have the worker finish the horse pasture then finish the cow pasture. I'll move the north warrior to keep it so there is as little fog in the north. Finally move the South Warrior through Cathys Land and explore. Sounds good or anything that I should change?

Paulk
May 20, 2006, 06:15 PM
Wow way to participate in disscusion everyone.

DaviddesJ
May 20, 2006, 06:20 PM
I agree, I will change to a Granary immediately. And will contunue to research mining and then to BW. Build barracks in THebes. Have the worker finish the horse pasture then finish the cow pasture. I'll move the north warrior to keep it so there is as little fog in the north. Finally move the South Warrior through Cathys Land and explore. Sounds good or anything that I should change?

Don't forget we need a road for the horses. Also, I think we should consider Masonry before Bronze Working, so we can add a quarry on the stone and produce War Chariots more quickly. I haven't timed it out, but I think this would come at about the right time for our worker to build the quarry after the cows (and that if we do BW first, the quarry will be significantly delayed). Of course, BW is useful for chopping and rushing, plus spotting Catherine's bronze (I sure hope it's not the mine right next to her capital), so we could go either way.

Paulk
May 20, 2006, 07:04 PM
I will also build the road after the horse pasture, of course. For technologies I feel like BW would be more useful. We would be able to start pop rushing, forest chopping, find where Cathy and our copper is. And since we aren't going for any early wonders (as it stands), masonry isn't that useful we only have it so we can work the stone and thats it. BTW I don't find walls all that practical as we will be offensive. We are spirtual so we can change civics right away.

ainwood
May 20, 2006, 09:31 PM
(I sure hope it's not the mine right next to her capital), so we could go either way.
I believe she had that mined before she had slavery, so it was probably mined for production.

ainwood
May 20, 2006, 09:32 PM
Wow way to participate in disscusion everyone.
Weekends are traditionally slow - people off doing other stuff, I think.

BTW - I'm happy with the strategy as you & david have suggested.

Paulk
May 20, 2006, 10:42 PM
Alright then ill play my turn tonight.

DaviddesJ
May 20, 2006, 11:04 PM
For technologies I feel like BW would be more useful. We would be able to start pop rushing, forest chopping, find where Cathy and our copper is.

True, but it's also more expensive. Every turn earlier that we get Masonry is one turn sooner we can build the quarry, which is then +2 hammers/turn. If we accelerate Masonry by 18 turns, that's 36 hammers, which is 1 extra WC. Against that, chopping sooner doesn't really get us more hammers than chopping later, and it's not clear how soon we're going to have enough pop that we actually want to rush with them.

But I can see it either way, I have no problem with your preference.

DaviddesJ
May 20, 2006, 11:06 PM
I believe she had that mined before she had slavery, so it was probably mined for production.

Yes, certainly. But the evil map designer who edited the map could easily have put bronze there, knowing she would be likely to mine it right at the start.

Paulk
May 20, 2006, 11:21 PM
once the barracks is done what should be made in THebes? A worker or should I start producing WCs or another Settler?

DaviddesJ
May 20, 2006, 11:27 PM
once the barracks is done what should be made in THebes? A worker or should I start producing WCs or another Settler?

Start making WCs, I think. Will the Barracks be done in your 10 turns?

Paulk
May 20, 2006, 11:56 PM
Mephis switches to granary. North Warrior (NWar) heals. South Warrior (SWar) moves southeast. Worker making horse pasture, still.

2. 2440BC

SWar continues SE.

3. 2410BC
SWar moves SE. Move NWar south. Heading for the desert hill west of Thebes.

4. 2380BC
SWar moves SW. Thebes grows to 3 pop. Start working stone. Barracks done in 6 turns.

5. 2350BC
Horse pasture done start road. Mining Discovered. Start Bronze Working. Barbarian Warrior spotted West of Thebes. SWar moves SE.

6. 2320BC
SWar moves SE. Barb goes back into fog.

7. 2290BC
SWar moves SE onto hill. Memphis culture expands. Road complete horses connected.

8. 2260BC
Barb contunues moving around west of Thebes not very aggresive. Worker moves to finish cow pasture. NWar continues to move towards desert hill. SWar moves east onto sugar.

9. 2230BC
SWar moves SE to forest.

10. 2200BC
Move NWar onto desert hill. Fish spotted. (Good food city location can reach clams and fish.) Thebes completes Barracks start on WCs. Move SWar onto a hill I can see some trees.

Paulk
May 21, 2006, 12:03 AM
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC2200_01.Civ4SavedGame here is the save file.

DaviddesJ
May 21, 2006, 01:40 AM
Got it. I will probably play on Monday. Why is the worker not doing anything?

It's pretty clear we are alone with Catherine on this continent. Of course there may be others reachable before Astronomy, we haven't ruled that out yet. Good news is there's lots of room, if we kill her we'll be able to grow like crazy.

I am inclined to work floodplains instead of stone, to grow our capital faster. Food is as good as hammers, because we'll have Slavery soon.

civ_steve
May 21, 2006, 01:59 AM
I'm back in town, and will get caught up on the game tomorrow (It's a bit after midnight right now, in Southern California).

I had a couple PM's to take care of when I got in. Phabuk was on vacation when the teams were set up and play started, which is the reason for Phabuk's delayed response. I'd prefer not to exclude anybody from participating who signed up and wants to play, so I've asked AlanH to add Phabuk back to the roster, assuming Phabuk is still interested, which I'm inferring is true. If so, we haven't quite completed a round for everyone, so I'd place him after DaviddesJ.

DaviddesJ
May 21, 2006, 02:13 AM
I'd prefer not to exclude anybody from participating who signed up and wants to play, so I've asked AlanH to add Phabuk back to the roster, assuming Phabuk is still interested, which I'm inferring is true.

Or he can fill in on another team, if there's someone with fewer players than us? I don't have a strong stake either way; there's such a thing as too many people, though.

Phabuk
May 21, 2006, 10:48 AM
Hi!
Glad to be back in the team!

I've read the thread to be informed of what have been done and it seems also clear for me that we must rush over the russian with our war charriots.

It is also a good idea to farm the flood plains in order to grow and have a better production.

Perhaps it could be interesting to found a city in a short future just at the north of St petersbourg where there is a barb. It could be a good support for the invasion...


A technical question:
I will play just after david, if i well understood ?

ainwood
May 21, 2006, 04:14 PM
Hi!
A technical question:
I will play just after david, if i well understood ?
Sounds like it! Good to have you here. :)

Keith Larson
May 22, 2006, 12:42 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know that I am leaving for a conference this afternoon and will not be back home until late Thursday PM.

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 01:26 AM
I played a few turns and finished the cow pasture and I'm wondering what the worker should do next. I see three reasonable choices:

1. Cottage on floodplains.
2. Mine on stone hill.
3. Mine on grassland hill.

A cottage is worth most in the long run, but it doesn't help us build war chariots faster. The mine on the stone hill gives us the best production in the short run, but it's "wasted" work in that we'll eventually have to replace it with a quarry in order to get access to the stone resource (even though the mine and the quarry give us the same production from the tile). The mine on the grassland hill takes the longest to move to (3 turns from current location) but it will be useful in the long run, plus, who knows, we might discover bronze (or another resource!) on the tile.

I think my choice is the mine on the stone hill, but, I'll wait until tomorrow morning to see if anyone has any other thoughts.

MailMan
May 23, 2006, 01:43 AM
Since we do not need stone for a very long time, I think that mine on the stone is a good choise for now.

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 01:55 AM
Since we do not need stone for a very long time, I think that mine on the stone is a good choise for now.

Assuming we aren't going to try for Pyramids, we'll probably want Stone for the Great Lighthouse and/or Hanging Gardens, which aren't too far off, potentially. I don't have enough experience to know when these are likely to be built by the AIs, on Monarch. Anyone?

It's also not inconceivable that we could try for the Pyramids still, although pumping out enough WCs may make that too slow. Even if we don't expect to win the race for the Pyramids, it may be a very good idea to start building it (with stone hooked up) so that we convert our partial progress to gold which will speed our research quite a bit.

Getting 1f 3h from the grassland hill isn't much worse than 5h from the stone hill.

I'm just putting forth the arguments on both sides. As you can see, I often have a hard time making up my mind.

MailMan
May 23, 2006, 02:04 AM
I do not really see the pyramids as such important wonder. I think that the greatest benefit from it is the early 2gpp that goes into engineering.
If we want to consider WC rush there is no point in trying to get a wonder!
If we eliminate Russia - that a different story

The hanging gardens are usually built quite late by the AI (mainly due to the aqueduct pre-req) and we may get it later on.

I usually prefer food over hammers, but I think that in the current configuration 5h is better than 1f3h due to all the FP around.

ainwood
May 23, 2006, 02:23 AM
I think the payback on the hammers by mining the stone will be worth it. We'll delay a cottage by a few turns (and the snowballing benefits of that), but we'll get catherine's land faster.

civ_steve
May 23, 2006, 08:10 AM
Since we're going for a WC rush of Catherine, I would do the actions that hasten that the most; sounds like more Hammers, so I would suggest mining the Stone Hill

How many WC's before we start the attack?

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 10:02 AM
OK, I'm at 1930 BC, two more questions before I finish up:

1. Memphis just grew to size 3. Do we want worker (7 turns) or settler (11 turns) next? If we build a worker it will probably be for chopping, we have to decide how we feel about chopping now vs. waiting for Mathematics. But chopping would help accelerate our WC buildup, so that seems consistent with our overall strategy. Settler would also be useful and could go to the fish/clams spot, but that doesn't help us attack faster.

2. Bronze Working is complete. No copper in our area; two sources in the south, but Catherine doesn't have either hooked up yet. The northern source will be easy for us to pillage in our initial attack. What to research next? The original idea was Alphabet, trade techs with Catherine before we attack. Another reasonable idea is Mathematics, for better chopping, which may help us get out an extra couple of WCs, and also help develop Catherine's cities post-war. At some point we may want to divert for Fishing, but that's so quick we can just switch to it a few turns before we need it, or Masonry, but no point in that until we need it, since I'm already mining the stone hill.

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 11:05 AM
Actually, I thought about this some more, and I propose building at least a couple of WCs in Memphis, before we do anything else. They won't have XP from barracks, but this is the fastest way to rush Catherine before she gets spearmen. We can also use Slavery efficiently in Memphis, although, we're going to run into happiness problems soon. When happiness becomes an insuperable problem, we can revert to building worker or settler. Ideally, what we would like to do is fill up our food basket and then rush a worker or settler. Thoughts?

ainwood
May 23, 2006, 02:27 PM
I can't look at the game - but how does happiness compre to health (for the slavery strategy?)

One of the biggest "problems" I have in my play-style is that I try to achieve too much at once, rather than going for a single goal. I see this happening if we try to grab another settler now rather than later - the settler will also stunt growth for 11 turns - are we at our pop limit? If we are going for a settler, we could pop-rush it, but overall, I'm more in-favour of going for war chariots.

How long would it take to get barracks? If we go for a couple of war chariots now, what is the plan? Declare on her with only a couple and ensure that she doesn't hook-up copper? That is dangerous, as it will mean she will focus on archers - in a city on a hill with 40% defence! :eek: Maybe we could sit them on the edge of the territory, and attack the worker if (when) she goes to hook it up?

As for research - if we have the tech we need for our initial strategy, perhaps the next techs should be towards the long-term strategy - which will probably be getting off this continent! That said - mathematics has uses for both - and gets us closer to construction if we need catapults.

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 03:44 PM
Currently our cities are limited by happiness at least as much as by health, and we can improve health (by connecting rice) more easily than happiness. So Slavery is going to be of limited (but significant) value, as we'll eventually limit ourselves by reducing happiness more than we gain by converting food to shields.

I think we can attack with 8 or so WCs in the not too distant future, especially if we start building them in both cities. We're generating nearly 20 hammers/turn, plus some hammers from Slavery, plus some potential hammers from chopping.

If we're looking to get 3-4 WCs out of Memphis, at 37 each, it makes way more sense to just start building them than to try to build a barracks at this point. It's got to be better to have 4+ inexperienced WCs, than 1-2 experienced ones.

I'm pretty much decided on building a WC in Memphis, my question still is Mathematics or Alphabet. Honestly, I think we're probably going to want to attack Catherine before we get either (attack about 20 turns from now, vs. 25 turns to Mathematics or 30 turns to Alphabet). We may consider letting Catherine live with one city for a while in exchange for some techs, which would be an argument for Alphabet. On the other hand, we may want to start chopping to improve all of our new cities, which would be an argument for Mathematics.

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 10:52 PM
OK, I couldn't decide between Alphabet and Mathematics, so I decided to punt and research Fishing first. This will be useful when we go for the clams and fish, and we can defer the Alphabet/Mathematics decision for a few turns.

2170 BC: not much

2140 BC: not much

2110 BC: Cow pasture finished, spot barb warrior in far south (evaded)

2080 BC: Thebes grows to size 4

2050 BC: Catherine has 2 archers in capital, 1 more nearby

2020 BC: start mining stone hill

1990 BC: not much

1960 BC: complete 1st War Chariot (promote to Combat 1)

1930 BC: discover Bronze Working, adopt Slavery, someone founds Judaism, Huayna Capac adopts Slavery, Memphis builds granary, Memphis grows to size 3, pop rush 2nd War Chariot in Thebes, start researching Fishing

1900 BC: build 2nd War Chariot (promote to Combat 1), 1st War Chariot kills barb warrior (level up), warrior in south spies new continent!!

Here's the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC1900_01.Civ4SavedGame

Screenshot:
127707

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 10:58 PM
Here's my ideas of what to do next. Thebes should keep building WCs, in 14 turns when the unhappiness goes away it can pop rush again. Memphis should keep building WCs, when it grows to size 4 it can pop rush. The northern warrior needs to return to garrison Memphis (I sent it north just to see if there was anything I could spot from the silver tile). The southern warrior will finish exploring in the south (there's a black spot where I didn't want to fight the barb warrior so I ran away---leave this for a WC when it gets down there) and then spy on Catherine so we know how fast she's building up, and/or hang out on the tip of the peninsula hoping to spot another civ's unit on the other continent. The WCs will scout and go barb hunting for promotions---we should try to save the barbs for our WCs that are at 4XP. The worker will finish the mine, and then probably should chop one forest near Thebes (which doesn't cost us any health), then start cottaging.

My reckoning is that we should be ready to attack in 20-25 turns.

Spotting the new land is ideal for our attack-Catherine strategy; we can, hopefully, grab this whole continent for ourselves, and still have someone to trade with before Astronomy.

DaviddesJ
May 23, 2006, 11:11 PM
Interesting tidbit: we seem to have jumped to the highest Firaxis score and highest Power rating of any team, as of 1900 BC. I guess no one is building WCs as aggressively as we are. I like being different. :)

MailMan
May 24, 2006, 01:05 AM
I am unable to look at the save until late tonight, can someone post some pictures to show the current situation?

Re: Alpha vs. Math - I think that we will try to eliminate Russia instead of giving her peace for techs, however I am not too keen on chopping, we will want some health bonuses with all those FP. another point toward alpha is that the AI prioritize Math and is usually late for alpha.

DaviddesJ
May 24, 2006, 01:16 AM
I added a screenshot to #116.

If we're going to have people to trade with (as seems likely), then I'm for Alphabet.

I do like chopping for Granaries, which can then be used for efficient pop rushing.

I don't think health is going to be much of an issue: we have plenty of health resources (including fish and clams) and few luxuries, so happiness is much more likely to constrain us, for quite some time. Probably we can win the game before health ever becomes a real constraint. Of course, there may be certain cities that are most impacted by deserts, that we won't want to chop too much around, but that still leaves many alternatives.

MailMan
May 24, 2006, 01:32 AM
I think we consider building a settler out of Memphis to grab the calm/fish/7FP desert site east of the capital (4E 1S).
This is prime location for whipping and later on a GP farm or commerce city.

I am not sure we should do it right now, but this location should be prioritized soon.

DaviddesJ
May 24, 2006, 01:42 AM
I agree with a settler out of Memphis as soon as we have "enough" WCs. I just think we need to build a few WCs there first, because the sooner we rush Catherine, the easier it's going to be. (Hopefully, we'll capture a couple of workers, so we won't have to build as many of those.) Also, the fish/clam site is going to grow very fast, so it's not so essential to get it up and running right away---in particular, until we have some workers to prepare the tiles, it's not going to generate that much for the rest of our empire.

ainwood
May 24, 2006, 02:55 AM
Looks good. Warrior needs to get back to Memphis before it grows - they're unhappy.

Regarding war chariots - perhaps the non-promoted ones should try a bit of barb farming. For promotions, I think we should follow the combat line, not the flanking one. Would be nice to grab a medic promotion - maybe the one the just beat the barb? And protect that chariot. We should keep an eye on the russians hooking-up copper. I'd image that they will try to get a third city in the south, and then link them & hook-up copper. Maybe we should watch the copper in the north, and at the first sign of mining it - attack and nab the worker (they probably won't defend the workers this early in the game).

Maybe we should also position the warrior in the south near the other copper, to keep an eye on it - and pillage it (if required) once the war starts.

Phabuk
May 24, 2006, 02:57 AM
ok I've got the save.
I will play tonight or tommorrow night if you want to have more discussion. Let me know!

- I agree to built a settler in memphis after have built enough WC but the point is : How much ?
I would say we could wait for 9 rounds in order to build 3WCs in memphis and 4WCs in thebes. Then we 'll have 9 WCs, thebes still building WCs and memphis up to 4 peoples, ready to build a settler.

- concerning research: after fishing we should go to mathematics in order to chop the forest near thebes and build more WCs and it leads us to catapult.

- I will bring back the north warrior to memphis as we have no more unknown land to explore

- il will use the 2WCs to spy the russian country, no ?

If you agree with that I play tonight...

I posted just after ainwood...

I agree to look at the copper and attack at the first sign of mining!

MailMan
May 24, 2006, 03:07 AM
sound like a good plan.
Can we spare the worker to build a road toward Russia? it will speed up the reenforcement.

Phabuk
May 24, 2006, 03:12 AM
yes we could begin the road on the west tile near thebes, just after mining the stone

DaviddesJ
May 24, 2006, 06:19 AM
If you really want to build a road you should put it on the hill SW of Thebes, at least this will help speed units toward Catherine. A road W of Thebes won't really help at all. But still chopping and cottages seem much more important to me.

There's no way you're going to get Mathematics and build catapults and use them to attack Catherine, or use increased chops to make more units for the war. One way or the other, the war will be over long before that can happen---I don't think you're realizing that it's 25+ turns to Mathematics at our present research pace, because we haven't been building any cottages.

If there's someone to trade with, then Alphabet is going to get us more than Mathematics.

DaviddesJ
May 24, 2006, 10:56 AM
P.S. If you chop the tile due west of Thebes, this will also help WCs from Thebes move more quickly toward Catherine.

IMHO, it's important to pop rush something from Memphis (WC or settler) when it reaches size 4, the bonus production from rushing is worth more than the extra tile of production (as long as there is no unhappiness problem). Only issue is that when it re-grows to size 4 we can have a happiness problem, but this isn't a big deal (we can just let one person be unhappy for a few turns).

civ_steve
May 24, 2006, 01:01 PM
I agree with WCs in Memphis, followed by a Settler once we have enough WCs to take out Catherine. If we are targetting 8-9 WC to do the job, we can probably start the aggression with 6-7, and finish up the last 2 as St Pete's is falling. Definitely plan on pillaging her Bronze at the start of the campaign (if it's being worked, or has been). (I haven't reviewed the save yet, so I'm talking more from the discussion at this point).

Fishing sounds like a good choice. I would follow up with Alphabet, and use an extra WorkBoat to do some exploring. If we find someone by this method, Alphabet will come in handy, and we might choose to let Catherine live for 10 turns at the last minute, if we're about to learn Alpha and can get a Tech from her for peace (if!)

Using 2 WC's to spy land prior to attack is sound.

Once the war with Russia is in hand, we should switch to settling and cottage building.

Team Peanut is ahead in something!?! Nice! I agree, it is good to set ourselves apart from the other teams.

Good Luck, Phabuk!

DaviddesJ
May 24, 2006, 01:09 PM
Definitely plan on pillaging her Bronze at the start of the campaign (if it's being worked, or has been).

There are two copper tiles.

One is in the radius of St Petersburg; we don't need to pillage that one. We can park a unit on it, which keeps her from using the resource (I think), and then when we capture St Petersburg she'll no longer have access to copper from Moscow (with WCs, we should capture St Petersburg on the next turn after the one when we declare war). If we don't pillage it, we won't have to rebuild the mine.

Important to check whether putting a unit on the copper keeps her from using the resource. I know it does keep her from working the tile.

The other is in the south and not yet in her cultural borders. If she does build a city down there, we may have to pillage that tile, or park on it. (If she wants to send archers out to attack us, so much the better!)

civ_steve
May 24, 2006, 01:29 PM
Good. I also noticed that, by restricting the score list to the 'up to 1600 BC' time, we're leading in Total Score as well! :goodjob: (At least up to 1900 BC, and our slope is very positive)

DaviddesJ
May 24, 2006, 01:38 PM
Good. I also noticed that, by restricting the score list to the 'up to 1600 BC' time, we're leading in Total Score as well! :goodjob: (At least up to 1900 BC, and our slope is very positive)

Of course, now that I've handed off control, our standing will plummet. :mischief:

Phabuk
May 24, 2006, 03:30 PM
Of course, now that I've handed off control, our standing will plummet. :mischief:


ok I will try to do my best...

I agree for mathematics, i didn't notice that it was so long... i will go for alphabet

so:

- pop rush in memphis for a WC/settler (probably a WC)
- chop and road with the worker
- alphabet
- a bunch of WCs
- promotion, spying and mine control with the already existing warrior and WCs


I will play tomorrow during the day. You still have a chance to influence my decision....

DaviddesJ
May 24, 2006, 04:40 PM
If we are targetting 8-9 WC to do the job, we can probably start the aggression with 6-7, and finish up the last 2 as St Pete's is falling.

We might even attack earlier. If we have a chance to steal a worker near St Petersburg, I'd say we should seriously think about just going for it right away. On the minus side, once we attack she will start building more units, probably. On the plus side, once we're at war we can start putting units on all of her good tiles in order to seriously impair her productivity. (I'd avoid outright pillaging just because we will want to have the developed tiles to work---on the other hand, pillaging can generate gold to speed our research which does have value.) She isn't likely to have any units that are strong enough to attack us in the field. If she does move out of the cities to interfere with us, we may have the chance to pick off some of her units individually without the large defense bonuses.

ainwood
May 24, 2006, 05:47 PM
There are two copper tiles.

One is in the radius of St Petersburg; we don't need to pillage that one. We can park a unit on it, which keeps her from using the resource (I think), and then when we capture St Petersburg she'll no longer have access to copper from Moscow (with WCs, we should capture St Petersburg on the next turn after the one when we declare war). If we don't pillage it, we won't have to rebuild the mine.
Good point. A quick axeman or two might be useful in the war if we're stretched.

MailMan
May 25, 2006, 12:43 AM
I do not think that 6-7 chariots will do. I think we should have 8-9 ready to attack on the first city since the AI will probably have 3 archers ready for us which means at least 3-5 chariots killed/retreat

important note: in order to use the retreat ability of fast units, they must have spare movement points. i.e. they should not attack with the last movement point. (I am not sure that attacking a hill can produce retreat even on the first move - we need to check that).

few other notes:
- we can use the medic promotion after the first battle, so I suggest giving combat promotions to all units.
- I would raze St. Pete and move it 2N to the desert tile to grab the clams.
the new location will fit better with the current cities. (beside the fact that it will become production powerhouse!)

DaviddesJ
May 25, 2006, 01:30 AM
I do not think that 6-7 chariots will do. I think we should have 8-9 ready to attack on the first city since the AI will probably have 3 archers ready for us which means at least 3-5 chariots killed/retreat

I hope she'll only have 2 archers for St Petersburg. We'll see.

important note: in order to use the retreat ability of fast units, they must have spare movement points. i.e. they should not attack with the last movement point.

This is just not true. It doesn't matter how much movement you have used.

we can use the medic promotion after the first battle, so I suggest giving combat promotions to all units.

I would agree with giving Combat 1 to all WCs: it makes a big difference to their attack strength, while Flanking isn't such a help. And most units that reach 3rd level should get Combat 2. I don't know if we will want to make any Medic units at all. We may just rest in the city to heal (15 HP/turn during resistance, 20 HP/turn after resistance. Giving up a Combat 2 unit is a substantial sacrifice---I'd probably rather take an extra turn for healing, but have a stronger unit to attack with.)

I would raze St. Pete and move it 2N to the desert tile to grab the clams.

I strongly disagree that we can afford to raze Catherine's cities. Sure it would be nice if they were in better locations. But we're already behind on growth and it's going to take us a long time to generate enough settlers to populate the city sites we already have access to. Building even more settlers for Catherine's city sites, without her cities to pump them out, is going to slow us down enormously. I really strongly favor just using whatever cities we get, however we can.

MailMan
May 25, 2006, 01:52 AM
Re retreat: - I will test this issue tomorrow.

Re razing St. Pete: - After we kick Catherine ass off the island we must make sure that we use the most out of it. One important aspect of this is city locations. I think that we already compromised with 1 less good city location due to our second city, missing another one down south - especially with all the production it will give will hurt us greatly in the long run.

Phabuk
May 25, 2006, 05:14 AM
I have made 4 turns:

1870 BC: Nwarrior SE, Swarrior NE, WWC medic promotion and SW

1840 BC: science down to 90%, WC in thebes, WC near st peter, stone mining finished, worker SE

1810 BC: WC in memphis, I lead the WC towards the russian frontier, worker chop the forest west of thebes

1780 BC: fishing is finished, I go for alphabet but it is quite long (42 turns), perhaps we should try masonry.
There are 2 archer in moscou, one archer in st peter, one archer on the hill near St peter and 2 arch + 1 settler going down south.
Nwarrior fortify in memphis. Pop rush for WC.




We don't have enough WCs for the moment but soon we'll be able to attack St peter (only 2 archers).
It's clear she gonna found a city near the copper in the south, but we'll see with the warrior down there.
We have 4 WC (almost 6). I'll wait for 2 more and begin to attack. Tell me what you think about, i will play tonight the other turns

MailMan
May 25, 2006, 06:20 AM
6 WC should take out 2 archers without a problem. If we are sure that St. Pete has only 2 archers when we get 6 WC near it. I suggest attacking.

After the war declaration, we can use the warrior to try and clear some archers by putting him on hill with forest/jungle cover (next to a city if possible).

good luck

Edit: the fact that Russia will have another city soon actually seems like a good thing for us:
- their forces will be spread across 3 cities instead of 2.
- the new city will not be able to produce much until we get there
- their capital produced settler instead of troops for the past few turns
- they saved us a settler

DaviddesJ
May 25, 2006, 10:47 AM
Re razing St. Pete: - After we kick Catherine ass off the island we must make sure that we use the most out of it.

Well, no we don't. There's a whole world out there, we can easily just expand onto other landmasses if we want. Our opponents are only at Monarch. Expanding quickly is much much more important than micro-optimizing placements.

I think that we already compromised with 1 less good city location due to our second city, missing another one down south - especially with all the production it will give will hurt us greatly in the long run.

We aren't in it for the long run. The game objective is rapid domination. If we grow and expand fast, we'll dominate the whole world long before we fully develop the lands that we have. I think (as with the previous city placement discussion) that you're much too concerned with the long run, while the short run is really much more important. E.g., in the short run, we can use the existing St Petersburg with the gems to greatly accelerate our research, we get to Alphabet several turns sooner, we get to trade for more stuff with other civs (assuming we meet them across the water), the whole rest of the game is accelerated by several turns. This is more important than whether any particular city is more or less productive 100 turns from now (it will probably take 50 turns from now to rebuild St Petersburg if we raze it, and another 50 turns for it to grow to be significantly productive---plus we also need to create another new city to work the gems).

DaviddesJ
May 25, 2006, 10:51 AM
WWC medic promotion

Big mistake. :(

Combat 2 makes a big difference in defeating the archers.

DaviddesJ
May 25, 2006, 10:53 AM
After the war declaration, we can use the warrior to try and clear some archers by putting him on hill with forest/jungle cover (next to a city if possible).

Yes, good idea. Ideally with a war chariot nearby so that if we lure an archer out to attack, and it does win, we can counterattack it ourselves and not have to kill it inside a city.

the fact that Russia will have another city soon actually seems like a good thing for us:
- their forces will be spread across 3 cities instead of 2.
- the new city will not be able to produce much until we get there
- their capital produced settler instead of troops for the past few turns
- they saved us a settler

Yes, I agree. Unless we raze it. :crazyeye: Or unless she connects copper and builds spearmen. :cry:

Phabuk
May 25, 2006, 04:44 PM
Here is the log. Please excuse my poor english... I'm french



1870 BC: Nwarrior SE, Swarrior NE, WWC medic promotion and SW

1840 BC: science down to 90%, WC in thebes, WC near st peter, stone mining finished, worker SE

1810 BC: WC in memphis, I lead the WC towards the russian frontier, worker chop the forest west of thebes

1780 BC: fishing is finished, I go for alphabet but it is quite long (42 turns), perhaps we should try masonry.
There are 2 archer in moscou, one archer in st peter, one archer on the hill near St peter and 2 arch + 1 settler going down south.
Nwarrior fortify in memphis. Pop rush for WC.

1750 BC: 2 new WCs, one combat promotion, I send all the WCs to the hills near St peter

1720 BC: not so much, russia wants to found a city in the south

1690 BC: one WC finished in memphis, forest chopped in thebes

1660 BC: one WC in thebes (combat 1), worker builds a road (west thebes), we have 8 (soon 10) WCs, Swarrior follows the russian settler

1630 BC: Swarrior attacked by barb, he is now weak so as I declare war to russia I prefer take him far from the russian archers. war is declared!

1600 BC: St peter is now egyptian ! we lost one WC in the battle... and we lost one more WC to kill an archer hiding in the hills near St peter

sum up:

St petersbourg has fallen and we lost 2 WCs in the battle, 4 are controlling the city and 3 are arriving in reinforcement. construction in the cities was only focused on WCs. The Swarrior is feeling very lonely and weak...

The save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC1600_01.Civ4SavedGame

If you look at the graph for 1600 BC we are in first position, really above the second!!!

DaviddesJ
May 25, 2006, 07:34 PM
Hmm. I forgot that we won't be able to use the gems near St Petersburg until we get Iron Working. :blush: I hope we'll meet someone and be able to trade for that when we get Alphabet. I have to admit this is a pretty bad city location---maybe I shouldn't have argued for keeping it. We could probably arrange to lose it to barbs, if we really want to.

We still have a good city site 3N 1E from St Petersburg (I think this is better than settling on the desert, anyway, as we get an extra hammer from the plains hill). But St Petersburg does interfere with using the sugar northeast of Moscow: I wish we could build a city 3N of Moscow, to work 2 sugar and 2 gems.

We should bump up research to 100%, now that we have money.

I think the current WC should be the last one in Memphis. Next turn we should switch to Settler. If we put in 8 turns of production, then on the 9th turn (10 from now) we'll be able to finish it off with a pop rush (just when the unhappiness from our last pop rush wears off).

I'd like to also switch to settler in Thebes, after the current build completes. (I'm assuming/hoping we will capture a couple of Russian workers, so we don't need to build those right away.) But it's possible we should build another WC, to be safe.

Tactically, against Catherine, we should quickly move to put our units on her improved tiles, to keep her from working them, thus slowing her construction of defenders. Even though it will take a few more turns to bring up all of our forces for the mass attack on the capital. (But don't pillage, I think, because we can use the improvements ourselves.) If we draw her out of the city, so much the better. We need to keep enough units around so that, if she does attack out, we can counterattack and finish any wounded units. Getting her to attack us is good (much easier to kill archers that way than if they are defending), so we should put single WCs near her capital to entice her.

See attached screenshot for some ideas for city sites. Some of these only make sense when we get Iron Working and/or Calendar. If we build two cities soon, then #1 should obviously be one; where should we put the other? I lean toward #4, but not strongly.
127903

DaviddesJ
May 25, 2006, 07:39 PM
we lost one more WC to kill an archer hiding in the hills near St peter

I don't think this was worth losing a WC. You could have just let him sit there. Either he'll move into more favorable territory, where we can attack him, or else he'll attack us, without his terrain bonus.

Edit: Maybe it's unrealistic to hope for it to move into better terrain, since it defends the same in forest, hills, or jungle, and we'd probably end up having to attack it in one of those. I still would have tried to lure it into doing something stupid, though. And we will have a Combat 2 WC soon, which has a much better chance to kill it without dying.

Phabuk
May 26, 2006, 01:19 AM
I wont be there for the next 3 days

DaviddesJ
May 26, 2006, 01:43 AM
See attached screenshot for some ideas for city sites. Some of these only make sense when we get Iron Working and/or Calendar. If we build two cities soon, then #1 should obviously be one; where should we put the other? I lean toward #4, but not strongly.

On reflection, I do think #1 and #4 are the best choices for right now. One thing that's good about these two sites is that they don't require much worker manpower, at least at first. The top priority for both is to generate workboats. Site #4 can work the stone hill to make a workboat very quickly. Site #1 can work the floodplains farm and then pop rush a workboat when it reaches size 2 (and get a good start on a 2nd). We'll want our worker to build a pasture for the cow SW of #4, but otherwise, we can concentrate on other priorities, like cottaging around Thebes and Memphis, perhaps some chopping, and perhaps some roads.

We need to figure out how to connect our cities together, especially so that we can get +1 happiness for the gems (and eventually the silver). There are two possibilities: by land or by sea. To connect by land, we would have to build quite a few roads, but those roads will continue to be useful throughout the game. To connect by sea, we need to (1) research Sailing, and (2) explore a coastal route from the north to the south. Unfortunately, the mountains are (intentionally?) arranged to make this difficult. If we can build a coastal city at #7, then we have a coastal connection from #4 to #7 as soon as we research (or trade for) Sailing.

civ_steve
May 26, 2006, 01:53 AM
First travel and then work has been crazy this week! But we appear to have cycled around and it's back to me.

Good job by the way, Phabuk! Nice to see a Russian city in our column, and I certainly hope we can count Moscow as well after my turn set. (And your English is far superior to my French!)

I haven't looked at the save and it's rather late right now. I'll look tomorrow and post questions later. (and get caught up)

I like and will have to try some of your ideas to bait the AI into attacking, DaviddesJ. Far better for them to come out then to beat their door in, although either way, Catherine is in trouble.

MailMan
May 26, 2006, 01:57 AM
nice going!

For some reason Memphis is working a unimproved plains instead of the horses!

We currently have 7WC, 1 due next turn (after the MM of memphis) and another next turn. I think we should only build 2 additonal WC (1 from each city). 11 WC will be enough to handle russia as well as being police later on.

DaviddesJ
May 26, 2006, 02:09 AM
For some reason Memphis is working a unimproved plains instead of the horses!

It's not for me---when I load the 1600BC save, Memphis is working the 2 cows and horse. Maybe you accidentally changed it after loading the save?

We currently have 7WC, 1 due next turn (after the MM of memphis) and another next turn. I think we should only build 2 additonal WC (1 from each city).

I think 9 is enough---i.e., just the ones in production. We can mass all 9 to attack Moscow within 8 turns; I think that will be enough to take it---although I still wish we had that combat 2 WC, instead of the Medic. :( Even if the remaining ones aren't enough to take Novgorod right away, we don't care that much. Novgorod isn't so valuable, it shouldn't be hard to take Novgorod because it doesn't have a terrain bonus, we want to wait for it to reach size 2 anyway, and our victorious troops from Moscow, after healing up, will be higher levels.

Of course, if we attack and fail, that's really bad. But waiting for 11 WCs will take 4 more turns---is that really worth it? We may be facing an additional defender by that time, anyway.

Getting two settlers under construction quickly will help us a lot, I think. Admittedly, our maintenance will be high, with so many cities, but we can also quickly produce quite a bit of commerce, particularly if our worker (and any we capture from Catherine) start cottaging.

We do want to send some WCs into Russian territory quickly to prevent the Novgorod troops from reinforcing Moscow. (If we seem to be threatening Novgorod, Catherine will probably leave some there, and if she does try to move troops back toward Moscow, we can intercept them and fight them in the field.) As well as, perhaps, luring some of Catherine's home defense out of her capital, although I don't know if we can really hope to succeed at that. But the AI makes unpredictable decisions about when to attack and when to stay put.:(

DaviddesJ
May 26, 2006, 02:44 AM
Looking at the Power graphs through 1000 BC, I'd say that there are some other teams pursuing a similar buildup to ours, but several turns delayed behind us.

I do think we have a good start, unless we blow out in the attack on Moscow (which, unfortunately, is a real possibility---I think we'll have something like a 90% chance to take it, but there's always that other 10%).

DaviddesJ
May 26, 2006, 10:17 AM
It's pretty scary to see how many hammers Catherine has in Moscow. With Monarch handicaps, she can produce archers with her one city faster than we can produce war chariots with two. We need to push to attack sooner rather than later, or we're just falling behind as she builds up. We also need to park units on her mines, and particularly the cow pasture, to reduce her production.

I'm starting to think we aren't actually going to prevail in this war. :( A better way to have pursued it would have been to mass for an attack on Moscow first (gathering our troops 2 moves away before declaring war), and then take St Petersburg and Novgorod at our leisure, with their smaller production and lesser defenses. At this point we should try really hard to lure her to attack out. We'll lose WCs if she does, but less than if we have to attack in.

There's a war chariot sitting in St Petersburg with 2 movement left---I think this guy should be pushing ahead into her territory. Sadly, this is the unit that has the Medic promotion instead of Combat 2. And quelling resistance in St Petersburg would also be nice. But we can't really do everything we want.

It's too bad our warrior got caught by the barbarian, he could be doing useful stuff if he were better positioned. I don't think there's anything for him to do now except hide out and perhaps keep some of Catherine's troops distracted (if she doesn't just come out to kill him).

Another reason to move the Medic into Catherine's territory this turn, is that we'll get a view of Moscow next turn, and be able to see how strong her defense is.

Keith Larson
May 27, 2006, 09:26 AM
Just to let eveyone know I am back in town. I have a tree to remove from my back yard today. I plan to participate in a more meaniful way tommorrow or Monday.

DaviddesJ
May 27, 2006, 12:09 PM
We are waiting for civ_steve, right?

civ_steve
May 27, 2006, 02:20 PM
Yes. :blush: Sorry for the delay (tough week at work!)

I've loaded the save, and pushed the Medic WC forward in 1600, and as first thing in 1570, placed it next to Moscow (in woods). There are 2 Archers (no promotions) and a Worker in Moscow.

Memphis finished a WC, and I've switched it to Settler. Next person can determine which City site to found at. With only 2 current defenders in Moscow, I plan to switch Thebes to Settler as well.

I'll finish playing in the next 8 hours or so (well, by the end of tonight). I'll check here first if there's any other suggestions.

DaviddesJ
May 28, 2006, 02:34 AM
I've loaded the save, and pushed the Medic WC forward in 1600, and as first thing in 1570, placed it next to Moscow (in woods). There are 2 Archers (no promotions) and a Worker in Moscow.

Why are you in the woods? On the hill would be better, because you could block the cows next turn, which is her best tile. From the woods you're out of range for the cows. WCs don't get a defensive bonus from terrain (and you wouldn't need it anyway---if you can get her to attack out, it's a win regardless).

I'm honestly not sure whether you're better off attacking with the WCs you have, or waiting for the last 2. One extra archer for her is worth more than 2 extra WCs for us, so, if you can bring all of your units fully healed against Moscow with just 2 archers, it may be right to go for it. On the other hand, I have no certainty she'll build a third archer, or that it will stay put and she won't get aggressive with it if she does.

Things to work on now include: (1) blocking off her good tiles, especially the cows (and the rice when you can get there) because without food she can't work many mines, (2) trying to lure her to attack out of Moscow, (3) making sure your injured units all get fully healed, (4) coordinating your movement so that when the last WCs do arrive, all of the other units are ready to attack that turn, which will require pulling some of them back off of her production tiles, and (5) quelling resistance in St Petersburg. From my (limited) experience, I think you won't lure her out when she has only two archers, but if she builds a third archer it may venture out to try to clear one of the tiles. So if she builds a third archer right on the turn when you are all set to attack, you might want to wait one more turn (she can't build another archer in a single turn) to see if she comes out. For healing your units, you can either rest them outside her territory, or you can move them in and aim to stack them with the Medic for a couple of turns. Also don't forget that promoting them will heal them somewhat---at this point, I think you only want Combat promotions.

I don't know if you have thought about what to build in St Petersburg, but I would tentatively suggest a workboat. Don't forget to order SP to build something before it exits resistance (otherwise you waste a turn of production).

Much is riding on whether you take Moscow!

civ_steve
May 28, 2006, 04:18 AM
Here is the results -

Turn 0 - 1600 BC
Move Medic WC S and S into Russian territory (Jungle-Gems)

Turn 1 - 1570 BC
Memphis completed WC - next Settler
Move Medic WC SE and SW to Forest NW of Moscow - 2 Archers defending, and a Worker in the city
Need minimum of 5-6 WCs to start assault, but with only 2 defenders, plan to sit on high production spaces
Warrior is at 0.5 hp; fortify until healed (in forest)
Give out 2 Combat II Promotions, advance WC's, 1 more into Russian Territory
Worker - let's road up to site 4 (for eventual coast connection); perhaps chop, then cottage around capital
Worker NE

Turn 2 - 1540 BC
WC in Thebes, next Settler; switch Plains/Forest to Floodplains for extra commerce
Grant Combat I to newly created WC, and send him to the front
2 More WC's enter Russian Territory
Occupy 2 mined Hills with 2 WC's already in Russian Territory, denying those 6 Hammers to Moscow
Worker starts Road

Turn 3 - 1510 BC
St Petersburg becomes usable - we'd like another Worker I believe; perhaps best to allow growth to Size2, allowing Pop-rush
(8 turns for growth), so let's put shields to something else - WorkBoat
One WC near St Pete's is all healed up; it moves up and Another WC enter's Russian Territory
4 Mined Hills are now Occupied (12 hammers denied to Moscow)

(IBT another dot shows up in Moscow's Unit list - they built a ... Settler!!)

Turn 4 - 1480 BC
Another WC finishes healing in St Pete's; it and another WC enter Russian Territory
Russian Cows are now Occupied
We have 7 WC's around Moscow
figure their Archers are at +50 (archer in city), +25 (archer on hills), +25 (hills), +25 (fortified), +40 (Moscow bonus); 7.95
It will be bloody, but 7 WC's should have a good chance;
Moscow is size 4, so she pop-rushed to produce the Settler
Moscow generates 5 Hammers/turn max (right now); 37 Hammers for Archer; no telling the Carryover, or if there were pre-build hammers
Probably best not to wait 4 turns for the last 2 WC's to arrive and risk a 3rd Archer

Turn 5 - 1450 BC
Worker finishes Road; NW to chop Forest at site 4
Move WC's into Attack positions

Turn 6 - 1420 BC
Moment of truth has arrived!
Send in first Archer fodder (no cannons around :) ), a 1 xp WC - combat odds 4.5% (yuck!) he dies,taking Archer to 2.5
2nd WC, no xp - wow! retreats, and takes 2nd Archer down to 1.6 (way to go!!!)
With 2 Combat II's, 2 Combat I's and the medic, odd's for a Combat II are 42.7% vs the 2.5 Archer (Combat I is 37.4%)
I decide to risk a Combat II, because if he loses, I'll probably get to promote a Combat I
3rd WC, 6 xp, charges and ... dies (taking Archer to 0.9)
4th WC, 9 xp, (88%) charges and ... bye bye Archer! WC gets 2 xp (11) and takes no damage!
5th WC, 4 xp, charges and takes the city! Moscow is ours and 2 Workers captured.
Decide to set Moscow's production to Library; I'll chop a forest and connect Gems with the Workers
Place Medic in Moscow
Advance 7th WC towards Novgorod
Move up 2 WCs just arriving
Start Chopping at site4

Turn 7 - 1390 BC
Give Combat II promotion to WC that captured Moscow
Give Combat III promotion to other winning WC
Start Chopping near Moscow
Advance 4 WC's toward Novgorod; move 2 to heal with Medic at Moscow
Novgorod's border expands, catching Warrior; let's move him next to Nov.
Catherine has 2 Archer (1 with Combat 1) defenders, let's see if one wants to attack the Warrior (WC is in range to counter)

Turn 8 - 1360 BC
No dice; Nov's Archers are at +50 (archer in city), +25 (fortified), +20 (city) = 5.9, not bad odds, but it's size 1
Not sure if it will implode, even with expanded culture; wait unit size 2, I guess

(IBT Confucianism is founded in a far off land)

Turn 9 - 1330 BC
Forest cleared near Moscow, start on Road
Move healed 5th WC towards Nov
Pop-rush in both Thebes and Memphis

(IBT Inca convert to Confucianism)

Turn 10 - 1300 BC
Thebes and Memphis complete Settlers and start on Libraries
Moscow is now out of resistance; One of it's 3 pop points is angry and not in use
Thebe's Settler starts heading towards site 7, or somewhere along the way to Russia
Site 4 is cleared by Worker
I'll leave Memphis' settler to the next player, so the team can decide on these 2 city placements
Send Medic WC up North to provide some cover to Settler if needed
Reduced Defenses of Novgorod probably only need the 5 WC's around it to be taken

end of log

So in the end, it took 5 WCs to capture Moscow, with this set of events. One thing I noted in the notes the upload provided, attacking a unit the 2nd time in a turn gives it a -20% extra combat penaly - useful when attacking an already wounded unit.

I realize I should have not moved either Settler so we could decide what to do with them. I figure we want Libraries in general, so the shields will be useful, and we have enough growth to bump up into the Happiness issue, so Granaries didn't see to desirable.

Cleared the site 4 location figuring it was likely one of the two Settlers would go here. Not clear in CIV whether founding on a forest gives you the hammers for it, so these might be wasted moves for the Worker. Even if we didn't get the Shields, it might have been better to be cottaging Thebes, which with Catherine pretty much in hand, it is time to get our Commerce up.

At 100% we are losing 14 gpt, with 79 in the bank. Peace will help a bit, but we definitely want to gain control of our economy.

Does Novgorod need to be size 2 to be captured? Do we want to capture it with the red ink we currently have? I also think its using a coast space, so it will take a long time to reach size 2 (one of the coast tiles is showing 3 coins).

(BTW DaviddesJ, with 2 Shields being generated by the Cattle, why deny that space instead of a mine generating 3? The forest I moved to allowed me to move on to the Mine SW W of Moscow the next turn)

1300 BC Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC1300_01.Civ4SavedGame)

MailMan
May 28, 2006, 04:33 AM
Great turn set!!

The AI can be really stupid in building a settler when his capital is under attack.

Re forest chopping in city tile: - chopping before settling is a good idea. founding a city on forest just waste the forest.

Re capturing Novogaurd - I am not sure, but I thing a city can be kept if one of the following occur:
1. the city is above size 1
2. the city culture has expanded its borders
3. the city was once held by the owner

civ_steve
May 28, 2006, 10:23 AM
That's sounds exactly like Civ3, which made me suspicious.

If Novgarod was founded about 14 turns ago (1720 BC?) and Catherine's been using a Grassland, it should be just about time to become size2. If she's using a 1 food tile, it would be another 16 turns or so. It has culturally expanded already; the 5 WC's around it are fortified so they haven't moved yet this turn, and can be moved within attack range.

DaviddesJ
May 28, 2006, 12:18 PM
I'm skeptical about size-1 cities. I'll try a test, but I think you always lose 1 pop when taking the city and thus size-1 cities disappear. I've heard other people say that culture is relevant, but it doesn't seem that way to me.

I agree with MailMan, settling on a forest removes it for no benefit. But still I think cottaging was probably worth more than chopping a relatively distant tile for relatively little payoff.

I think the AI never shifts its production when it has started something, so if it was building a settler when we attack, it will finish it. Too bad that it pop rushed costing us population, though. I think the pop rush also reduces the amount of gold that we get when we capture the city.

If we can block both the cow and the rice, then he can't work so many mines, was what I was thinking. And also, since he was building a settler, blocking the cow reduces his production significantly more than a mine---it might be that we could have slowed the settler down more. Still a good result.

Libraries are only really useful in cities that are going to get a substantial number of cottages. Seems like we may want a granary for long-term growth more than a library that pays relatively little in the short term, it's close though, and eventually we will build both.

We might consider making peace with Catherine now, and attacking again sometime down the road? Downside is that eventually she will connect the copper and build spearmen, if we wait long enough. But Novgorod has minimal value to us for now, and eventually we are going to encounter war weariness, and I don't know if we want to stay at war so long as to try to extract techs from her for peace. I assume that if we do make peace, that she will be so mad at us she won't be willing to trade us techs, later.

More later when I look over the save.

DaviddesJ
May 28, 2006, 12:36 PM
Cleared the site 4 location figuring it was likely one of the two Settlers would go here.

So why did you move the settler away from this site? Did you change your mind?

Looking at the save now, I think one settler should move to site 1 (fish/clams), and the other to site 4 (fish/cows). But I wish we had just gone there directly, instead of moving away and then back.

I'm thinking we should go ahead and make peace with Catherine. We need the happiness in Moscow, and, we can always re-declare down the road. No telling how long she will take to grow to size 2, or, whether she will generate a third archer which we won't want to attack, anyway. I do think she's working the forest to the immediate west of Novgorod---I can see the little hut in the middle of the tile.

Keith Larson
May 28, 2006, 01:41 PM
I have never seen a size 1 city survive an attack. Because of this I am leaning for peace now and attack later. I agree with DaviddesJ that grainaries are to be prefered to libraries, however since we have started them, I vote for finishing them. I also agree with DaviddesJ city sites.

ainwood
May 28, 2006, 02:20 PM
Re novgorod - we will have copper, so we can use axes (or maces) to get novgorod.

What are our maintenance costs for moscow & st petersburg?

Strange to see confucianism founded so early - I wonder if gyathaar gave them a little helping-hand?

civ_steve
May 29, 2006, 01:42 AM
My rationale between Granaries and Libraries is the 25% boost in Science is always useful while the growth benefit is not as useful while we are happiness limited. Having said that I haven't played much with Slavery and the granary would help you regain your lost population due to pop-rushing, but what else would we build but Library right now? (Or Workboats in our coastal towns). Barracks and ground units aren't too desirable until we know where and who our enemies are. I think at this point we have a lot of researching to do, especially when we know Code of Laws is already learned (and that's rather strange!) Either way, we will be building both.

Regarding moving the Settler, it would have been far better to have not moved either of them and make a decision on where to place them (Sorry!). Initially I was thinking Site 4 and Site 7, so we could connect our empire with Sailing, and I moved the Settler from Thebes to head to site 6. However, we really do need the road and we have 3 Workers. I'm content with Site 1 and Site4.

Re Novgarod - I think I'd sign peace and keep watch on the Copper space. If a Worker heads out to connect it, that's a good time to declare war, get another free Worker, and Nov will probably be size 2 or higher by that time (could be a while; no high food spaces there). I think we do eventually want it, but it doesn't help us much right now.

Eventually we'll want the Silver to the North, but I'm intrigued to see what lies on the land to the SW (at least Incense!). Site 4 (or another site on our Western Coast closer to Moscow) should generate an extra Workboat to see what lies in that direction.

I believe ainwood is up.

(St Pete's cost us 3 coins a turn, and Moscow 4 coins a turn)

MailMan
May 29, 2006, 02:13 AM
we should build some ships for exploration purposes.

We can keep Russia alive for now, it will help us with research (especially if we can extort techs from her after we get alphabet - we can try to do that even at peace - much like the AI wants techs from us).

If we experience any war wariness, I suggest signing peace, otherwise we can just lurk around her last city.

DaviddesJ
May 29, 2006, 03:37 AM
If we experience any war wariness, I suggest signing peace, otherwise we can just lurk around her last city.

We already have unhappiness in Moscow due to the war (so we'll get an immediate benefit from signing peace), although it hasn't spread to our other cities yet. But since we're going to make peace sooner or later, might as well do it sooner---that also accelerates the time we can re-attack if we want.

DaviddesJ
May 29, 2006, 03:52 AM
I'm happy to build at Site 7, but I think it makes more sense to use the current settlers at Site 1 and Site 4. We can eventually (pretty soon) build another settler in Moscow for Site 7.

The library in Memphis seems very low priority, and we haven't started it yet so there's no cost to change our mind. I suggest we produce a worker there, as follows: switch it to worker for 1 turn to put the overflow into a worker, then switch to WC for 1 turn so we can grow to size 3, then switch back to worker. We're going to need a few more WCs (or even warriors) just for garrison purposes, if nothing else.

The library in Thebes is high priority, because it has the palace and we should start cottaging it. Also, we can consider generating GPP there once we have a library.

The library in Moscow is medium priority, I would have preferred a granary but it's ok to stick with the library. It does have the gems, and can eventually get some cottages.

I like the idea of declaring peace, waiting for Russia to build another worker (or settler), and then poaching it.

Don't forget that the true cost of a city is more than just the maintenance shown for that city, because each additional city also makes your other cities more expensive to maintain. Building more cities is going to cost us a lot, we definitely need to start making cottages. We also really want Iron Working so we can develop the gems near St Petersburg; I'm hoping we'll be able to find someone to trade with, and won't have to research it ourselves.

DaviddesJ
May 29, 2006, 03:57 AM
Re novgorod - we will have copper, so we can use axes (or maces) to get novgorod.

Axemen cost considerably more than WCs, and are worse against the likely defenders (archers).

We'll probably have iron for swordsmen, if we need it.

I don't really think that taking Novgorod will be hard. Catherine won't just pile up archers to defend it; she'll be making workers and maybe settlers, sending her troops out as escorts where we can pick them off without city defense bonuses, etc.

Phabuk
May 29, 2006, 03:57 AM
I am back just to hear about very good news: nice turn steve.

Good idea to make peace now (but keep an eye on the copper...)

I suggest we should finish the libraries before construct anything else and soon have boats to explorate...

I will look at the save later.

DaviddesJ
May 29, 2006, 05:02 AM
I'm happy to build at Site 7, but I think it makes more sense to use the current settlers at Site 1 and Site 4. We can eventually (pretty soon) build another settler in Moscow for Site 7.

P.S. Don't forget that Site 7 isn't much good until we have Iron Working, so we can farm the rice. Unless it has a marine resource (which we should investigate, we need to finish exploring along the coast).

By the way, sending the settler from Thebes toward Site 7, unescorted, is also quite dangerous; there could be a barbarian lurking along that route.

civ_steve
May 29, 2006, 10:43 AM
I like 1 and 4 also. Site 7, later, perhaps by a Settler from Moscow.

Moscow gets a lot of Commerce from the Gems (once it expands) and has good food source. Plus it has the mines for good production when desired. I would cottage several spaces and play it for commerce mostly, and production when desired.

ainwood
May 29, 2006, 02:45 PM
Carry-on the discussion, and I'll likely play in either 12 hours from the timestamp on this post, or 36 hours. Hopefully 12.

I'll summarise the discussions and post what I'm going to do before then, to get a final agreement.

civ_steve
May 29, 2006, 11:54 PM
I did try to contact Catherine to see what she thought of peace. She wanted nothing of it; might have to move the WC's in to show we mean business. I'm sure she's not afraid of our Warrior (who is taunting her daily).

MailMan
May 30, 2006, 12:29 AM
My settling priority is first spot #1.
This city should start on at least 2 work boats. after that it should probably whip granary and than a worker. this is a great city location that I think should be settled and worked ASAP

On the next settling point I am not so sure, but I think #4 is good enough. it is close to the capital - so less maintenance and it gets two resources.

the #6 spot I would move 2E1S from its current location to reduce overlap with other cities near by.

ainwood
May 30, 2006, 12:55 AM
OK - I checked the save, and catherine will make peace.

Proposed play:
* I will wait a turn and see if Novogrod grows. If not, declare peace - but watch the copper (and whether she has a worker etc).
* Current settlers to sites 1 & 4.
* Start getting cottages around Thebes.
* Keep building library in Thebes. I'll run the numbers on whether to emphasise food or production for Thebes in doing this.
* In memphis, I'll try david's suggestion to get a worker.
* Moscow can continue on library - any thoughts on chop-rushing it? I was thinking maybe chop-rushing a granary instead. :hmm:
* St Petersburg - finish workboat (Why or why? Is that for exploring?) Then look at perhaps a granary or library - I'm more inclined on granaries.

Workers will look to start cottaging around thebes, although I might get roads built to link luxuries. We have a lot of hills around, so mining for production is probably a good strategy.

re research - I'll go for iron-working after alphabet, unless there are severe objections. Note that I will drop the research rate to try balance our budget.

MailMan
May 30, 2006, 01:18 AM
The worker should allocate some turns to road into city site #1 in order to connect it to the trade network and get some health bonuses there.

St Petersburg - finish work boat (Why or why? Is that for exploring?) I do not know what was the original thought behind it, but we really do need some exploration.


I will not be able to play until Monday, so please swap my place this round

ainwood
May 30, 2006, 01:35 AM
Good point re the worker. BTW - can't play tonight. Will play tomorrow.

DaviddesJ
May 30, 2006, 02:50 AM
re research - I'll go for iron-working after alphabet, unless there are severe objections.

You aren't going to get Alphabet in 10 turns!! I do agree on Iron Working after Alphabet, unless we can find someone to trade with (in which case I think there's a good chance we can get Alphabet that way, and we might want to research something else instead for trade purposes). The opportunity to trade is a good reason to build a workboat in St Petersburg. I also think we should park a military unit on the southwest peninsula asap, so we have a chance to stop someone wandering by on the other continent.

Even if Novgorod were size 2, I still think making peace immediately would be a good idea. It's going to be several turns before we can bring up all our forces. When we take the city, it's going to be a net drain on our economy. It doesn't have any improved tiles and our workers are quite busy with the cities we already have. If we let her keep it, and grow it, and build a worker or settler for us, all of which we can easily seize when we want to, that's better than owning it ourselves. We have her constrained so that we don't have to worry about her interfering with us any more, which was the main idea, as well as capturing Moscow.

I don't think we need a road to Site #1. I think it connects to our core via existing roads and the coast. We do need to think about farming and connecting the rice near Thebes (or else connecting to the rice near Moscow).

Jastrow
May 30, 2006, 12:09 PM
Lurker comment/question?

@176/177 Re: Workboat exploration...

Arn't workboats confined to your own cultural borders?

....


Nevermind.... Just looked it up... Cultural Borders *OR* Coast.... Everything makes sence again....

civ_steve
May 30, 2006, 12:11 PM
I agree about Novgorod - don't capture it (save us the 5 commerce/turn support for now), let Catherine develop it, capture it later when there's another Worker to get out of it.

St Pete's workboat - my initial thought was to use it to work one of the two bonus tiles near Site #1. Exploring the land to the SW is good also.

Site #1 - it's not on either river, right? This part is mysterious to me, but I don't think it will be connected until we learn Sailing. If both things are correct, a road from one of the rivers to the City will have to be built. We can check by seeing if it has Horses in it's resource box; if not, we need the Road or possibly Sailing.

Parking the unit down in the corner to see if someone comes by is a great idea, once we have signed peace. I also like developing the food supplies. And it's definitely cottage time. Good Luck, ainwood!

civ_steve
May 30, 2006, 12:13 PM
Lurker comment/question?

@176/177 Re: Workboat exploration...

Arn't workboats confined to your own cultural borders?

:confused:
Nope. I used a Workboat to explore another land mass in GOTM4. They can't be used to develop a resource that's not in your cultural sphere, the same as a Worker.

DaviddesJ
May 30, 2006, 02:28 PM
Site #1 - it's not on either river, right? This part is mysterious to me, but I don't think it will be connected until we learn Sailing.

I think it will be connected, without Sailing, as long as the coast tiles between it and the river mouth are within our cultural borders. I can try to set up a test game---or we can just wait and see. You may be right that we need Sailing.

The question of whether to explore the southwest with our 1st workboat, or send it to Site #1, is an interesting one. There's always the chance that we would find another landmass while sailing toward Site #1, although, exploring the land that we know exists is certainly attractive.

ainwood
May 30, 2006, 02:46 PM
You aren't going to get Alphabet in 10 turns!! I thought it was 8 turns away when I opened the save? (could be wrong though). Plus, we need to turn-down the research rate.

DaviddesJ
May 30, 2006, 04:47 PM
Alphabet is 15 turns at 100%. It's 30 turns at 50%, which is about the best we can support for that long. We should probably turn research down to 0% for a while. We get more payoff by running at 0% now to build up gold, and then 100% after we build libraries, than from a fixed 50% rate.

ainwood
May 30, 2006, 08:42 PM
Alphabet is 15 turns at 100%. It's 30 turns at 50%, which is about the best we can support for that long. We should probably turn research down to 0% for a while. We get more payoff by running at 0% now to build up gold, and then 100% after we build libraries, than from a fixed 50% rate.
Yeah - I frequently do that, but in this case I figured that iron working would also give us a significant research bonus as we can get the gems. I'll try running the numbers.

BTW - any thoughts on chop-rushing?

DaviddesJ
May 30, 2006, 11:34 PM
BTW - any thoughts on chop-rushing?

The biggest need, I think, is to improve our economy. The most direct way to do that is by building cottages, and connecting up our luxuries so we can grow our cities larger, so I would make those the primary focus. If there's a convenient opportunity to chop to accelerate the production of additional workers---either directly, or by building granaries that then let us pop-rush workers and regrow quickly---I think that would be reasonable. I wouldn't chop for libraries.

In the short term, I'd either put the northern worker to building cottages, or have it chop one forest to accelerate a second worker out of Memphis (and then switch to cottages). Site #1 and Site #4 don't need help right away: Site #1 can grow to size 2, using our existing farm, and then pop rush a workboat; Site #4 can build a workboat quickly, using the stone hill.

In the south, I'd have one worker finish connecting the gems, and send the other to mine the copper near St Petersburg. Then probably send both back toward Thebes, building some roads along the way, while timing their arrival to improve the cows near Site #4 as soon as our borders expand there. I don't see chopping the Moscow library as especially important, and chopping a worker doesn't make a lot of sense because we want Moscow to be growing, rather than producing workers. St Petersburg may switch to worker or settler after the workboat, because it doesn't gain very much from growing beyond size 2, but we can't accelerate it with chopping because it doesn't have any forests near enough. The roads through the center will eventually be useful, and most of our cities will be in the north for a while, so that's really where the highest worker payoff is.

DaviddesJ
May 31, 2006, 01:35 AM
the #6 spot I would move 2E1S from its current location to reduce overlap with other cities near by.

I put #6 on the plains hill for the extra hammer. But I don't feel strongly about the location. This is never going to be a great city; it may never be worth building at all. My second choice would be 2E from #6. Moving it 2E 1S doesn't seem better than 2E: it just gets us some ocean tiles that we are unlikely ever to use, and it wastes a forest.

ainwood
May 31, 2006, 04:13 AM
Pre-Flight check:

Make peace with catherine. Move a couple of chariots to Moscow to save unit supply. Moscow is now happy.
Switch memphis to worker for one turn to get overflow.
Move settler in memphis towards site 1.

Reduce research to 50% - that's -1 / turn (alphabet in 30), but we'll bring it up when we get a library.

Turn 1 - 1270 BC:
Move settler towards site 4, and other one towards site 1.
Worker at 4 moves to start cottaging floodplains.
Worker in south starts to road gems, other one moves towards copper.
Switch Memphis to a library for a turn.


Turn 2 - 1250 BC
Catherine is cautious - and want's open borders. I agree, so we can keep a better eye on her. Move chariot to watch Novgorod.
Another chariot sent towards site to watch other continent.
Settle Heliopolis - start a Sloooooow work boat.
Settle elephantine, and do the same.
Start mining copper.
An archer has appeared from the gloom between thebes & St. P. Send war chariot to investigate, before it can get to hills. Its the 5/10 medic one - not ideal. Send another chariot to garison St. P

IBT - Chariot wins (2.2). Leave it where-is to heal.

Turn 3:
Start cottage.

Turn 4: 1180 BC
Finish roading gems. Move to road cows (although we have health bonus) - but its only a short delay.

Turn 5: 1150 BC:
Catherine now has a third archer.

Turn 6 - 1120 BC.
Send chariot to garrison heliopolis - in case of barbs.

Turn 7: 1090 BC:
Moscow expands - we now have gems & cow. Works gems to help budget - and rice for growth, over hammers.
Complete workboat in St. petersburg, start granary.
Workboat off exploring.

Turn 8: 1060 BC;
Complete worker in memphis, and start another one (which I'll chop-rush).
Copper is mined, so start road.

Turn 9 - 1030 BC;
D'oh - stupid mistake. Realise that chop will finish on same turn as worker. Cancel that (we lose one worker turn overall).

Turn 10: 1000 BC:
Elephantine & Heliopolis expand.
First cottage at thebes complete.
We're running 50% at -2 GPT.
Hyana capuc gets bureaucracy!

Memphis - size 3 (26/39 in bin): Worker 36/90 (4)
Thebes - size 4 (7) Library 99/135 (5)
Heliopolis: size 1 (1) Workboat 8/45 (37)
Elephantine size 1 (6) Workboat 16/45 (29) Need to get cows pasturised!
St. Petersburg: Size 3 (19) - suffering from health problems. Granary 24/90 (9)
Moscow: Size 3 (1) - Library 56/135 (20)

Catherine-watch: Novgorod still size 2, has 3 archers.



Here is your Session Turn Log from 1300 BC to 1000 BC:

Turn 90, 1300 BC: You have made peace with Catherine!

Turn 92, 1240 BC: Heliopolis has been founded.
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Elephantine has been founded.
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Peanut's War Chariot (5.50)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Combat Odds: 1.3%
Turn 92, 1240 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 96, 1120 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!
Turn 96, 1120 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 97, 1090 BC: You have trained a Worker in Memphis. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 99, 1030 BC: The borders of Heliopolis have expanded!
Turn 99, 1030 BC: The borders of Elephantine have expanded!

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

>>THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC1000_01.Civ4SavedGame)<<

MailMan
May 31, 2006, 04:20 AM
Hyana capuc gets bureaucracy!
That is a very bad news!
We need contacts and exploration before we fall too far behind

Heliopolis: size 1 (1) Workboat 8/45 (37)
It looks like a whip next turn

As mentioned before - I will need a skip/swap this round

civ_steve
May 31, 2006, 07:47 AM
Just to clarify, here's the turn status:

civ_steve
ainwood - Just Played
MailMan - Up, but needs to swap/switch
Keith Larson - Keith is on deck
PaulK - 2nd on deck
DaviddesJ
Phabuk

Keith, your turn is up in the C3C game as well; should we do a double slide and put PaulK up now?

Bureaucracy? The Inca already have CS, and we're still struggling with Alphabet. :eek: We definitely need to make some contacts.

Paulk
May 31, 2006, 08:30 AM
I'm ready to play if Keith isn't ready. But I dont mind waiting for Keith.

DaviddesJ
May 31, 2006, 11:10 AM
Open borders are good---I forgot we would need this for our workboat to explore.

I'm not terribly worried about Huayna Capac. It seems that the map designer did something to give him a big head start, like an extra 10 huts. The AI doesn't know what to do with a head start; we will catch up.

Elephantine is working the wrong tile: it should be working the stone hill, its workboat would be almost done by now.

I'm not convinced we need a 5th worker from St Petersburg, but it won't do any harm.

Several of our cities are on the verge of happiness problems; this is a stage of the game where we have to manage our growth very carefully (which will be more challenging with control constantly passing from one to another of us).

DaviddesJ
May 31, 2006, 11:33 AM
I'd like to see a unit move out to the jungle/rice area (Site #7) just to see if there's any land or resources offshore.

DaviddesJ
May 31, 2006, 01:51 PM
From the info screen, Huayna Capac built the Oracle in 1120 BC, so that's how he got Bureaucracy.

ainwood
May 31, 2006, 02:14 PM
The workers should be able to complete the road from the south in the next turn-set, bringing the gems on-line in the capital, but we should try to get the silver connected.

DaviddesJ
May 31, 2006, 02:25 PM
The workers should pre-build partial roads as they move toward the cows, then send one worker back to complete the roads after they finish the cow pasture, while the other roads toward Thebes. This connection isn't going to be finished in 10 turns (assuming that we think the cows are a higher priority than the road), but it shouldn't be too much more than that.

We could have gotten this done faster if we hadn't delayed to road the cows near Moscow (which really doesn't do much of anything for us, at least until we find three different opponents all of whom want to trade resources for cows).

ainwood
May 31, 2006, 02:46 PM
We could have gotten this done faster if we hadn't delayed to road the cows near Moscow (which really doesn't do much of anything for us, at least until we find three different opponents all of whom want to trade resources for cows).St Petersburg has health problems. Granted - roading the rice would have been better, but IIRC it meant one less road tile to actually build to keep St Petersburg growing rather than stagnating (its losing 1 fpt now, as opposed to two without the cows). I figured that this way, it would have the health from the northern cities by the end of the next turnset when the road is completed.

DaviddesJ
May 31, 2006, 02:57 PM
Letting St Petersburg stagnate isn't such a big deal, it only has 2 good tiles to work anyway. I think connecting our network faster (and improving the cows for Elephantine faster) would have been worth more. Not a big deal though.

I don't quite understand "it would have the health from the northern cities by the end of the next turnset". Now that St Petersburg has the cows from Moscow, connecting it to Thebes won't do anything more for it, right? Unless/until we also farm/road the rice near Thebes.

The granary will have the biggest effect; presumably, St Petersburg should pop rush the granary as soon as it can (3 more turns). Then, probably, work coast for commerce, while growing to size 3, and then switch to settler which can finish with a pop rush. Or something like that.

ainwood
May 31, 2006, 03:09 PM
I don't quite understand "it would have the health from the northern cities by the end of the next turnset". Now that St Petersburg has the cows from Moscow, connecting it to Thebes won't do anything more for it, right? Unless/until we also farm/road the rice near Thebes.
Yeah - I got it wrong. I was meaning the clams & fish, but these won't come on-stream for a couple of turnsets. :ack:

I think we'll need to get heliopolis on the trade network soon too - and get a couple of mines built.

DaviddesJ
Jun 01, 2006, 12:20 AM
Heliopolis is already connected (as I expected)---look at the city screen.

civ_steve
Jun 01, 2006, 07:53 AM
We haven't heard from Keith (I know he's around :) so we'll assume he needs a pass as well). PaulK, why don't you take it, and we'll play MailMan and Keith Larson after you. Post a got-it to confirm, and any questions you might have.

ainwood
Jun 01, 2006, 08:13 PM
I'm away from now until tuesday. :)

Paulk
Jun 01, 2006, 10:18 PM
Got it. Could you all just clarify some things I should do this turn. As it stands I have:
-rush workboat in helopolis and than build a _______.
-rush worker in Mephis and than build a _______.
-In Elphantine switch to stone hill and have a workboat done in 5 turns than build a _____.
-With the southern workers connect the empires and build the pasture for elphantine
-With the Northern workers continue to build cottages for Thebes and Mephis
-move a single WC to the rice by site 7

What should I do in the blanks?
Anything I missed or should change?

Paulk

DaviddesJ
Jun 02, 2006, 12:22 AM
Heliopolis: rush workboat at size 2, then 2nd workboat, then library? granary?

Memphis: build current worker normally (don't want to rush again until the unhappiness from last time wears off), then grow to size 4 while building library (possibly rush 2 citizens when reaching size 4)

Elephantine: workboat in 5 turns while working stone hill, then granary?

St Petersburg: work coast for 3 turns, pop rush granary, then library?

Thebes: 4 turns of work on library, then finish with pop rush (end of previous unhappiness), use carryover for settler?

There's so much profitable micromanagement of cities to be done at this stage of the game, I can't really work out the best approach for every city for every turn. Each player is going to have to use their own judgment. (We could, as a group, micro-analyze what everyone should do, every time, but I think that would get excessive.) As a general principle, cities at their growth limit should consider pop rushing, especially if they have granaries (which speed the regrowth), and it's desirable to pop rush with 2 people at one time (because you only get 1 unit of unhappiness), and it's (VERY) undesirable to pop rush again before the unhappiness from the previous time wears off.

I'd suggest you aim to finish Alphabet in 10 turns, so then at the next handover we can decide what to do next. Also, by then we'll have a better idea of whether we're going to meet someone. Once we have libraries, we should generally run with binary science (i.e., alternate between 0% and 100%).

Our next settler from the north should probably go near the silver, to spread happiness to the rest of our cities. Our next settler from the south should probably go to Site #7, assuming we're either relatively close to having Iron Working (to clear the jungle on the rice), or we find a coastal resource to go with the horses and rice.

We should consider building some warriors for garrison duty so that we can bring our WCs south and re-attack Catherine when the opportunity presents itself. (A good time would be when she has a worker or settler to steal, or splits up her archers so we can pick some off outside her city.)

civ_steve
Jun 02, 2006, 10:13 AM
I appreciate the 'good general principle' you just laid out for city management; we definitely don't want to micro analyze every city every turnset! I would add that in addition to wanting to work the bonuses out at sea, we want Workboats for exploring and to make whatever contacts we can reach.

Warriors for MP duty to free up our WC's makes sense; the forces we have should be sufficient to take out Catherine when the time is right. We may be able to make a Technology Trade with her yet, but a free Worker or 2 is nice as well.

We are happiness limited so the Silver to the North looks desirable.

Good Luck, PaulK!

DaviddesJ
Jun 02, 2006, 11:43 AM
I would add that in addition to wanting to work the bonuses out at sea, we want Workboats for exploring and to make whatever contacts we can reach.

I think one Workboat for exploring is probably enough. Either we'll find a large amount of other land that's reachable without crossing oceans, in which case we'll probably find someone to trade with and be able to pick up Sailing and build Galleys, or we'll find that only a small amount of land is reachable, and we can explore it with our one Workboat (and we'll want a galley at some point to colonize the indigo island, as well as to defend ourselves from barbarian galleys eventually).

DaviddesJ
Jun 02, 2006, 02:09 PM
I appreciate the 'good general principle' you just laid out for city management; we definitely don't want to micro analyze every city every turnset!

My style is to try to provide constructive feedback after each turnset, about what I think could have been done better. In keeping with the idea of SGOTM as a learning process for all of us. If this gets too annoying, or people want less criticism, please let me know.

DaviddesJ
Jun 02, 2006, 02:14 PM
Depending on what we find when exploring, putting a city on the indigo tile, that can work cows and clams (and maybe another resource?) looks like an excellent spot. Desert/incense is a relatively mediocre tile, even with a plantation.

Of course, this requires a galley, as well as beating any AIs who might be on that land and heading there. If we find that land is already inhabited, we may not have that option. If we find that land is uninhabited (and, perhaps, a relatively small island), we might well want to prioritize Sailing in order to get a settler (or more?) over there.

Paulk
Jun 02, 2006, 09:27 PM
Reporting in just finished my turn set. Exploration, construction (using the blood of the people), and Diplomacy.

Turn 0 1000 BC
Send a WC to explore rice by site 7 (find nothing 2 turns later)
Work stone instead of unpastured cow (workboat in 5 turns)

Turn 1 985 BC
Pop Rush WB @ Hel.
Start on more cottages by Thebes
Start construction on road to connect our great empire and get beautiful gems to the people of Thebes.

Turn 2 970 BC
Use new Workboat to explore NE mountains (find a fish there)
Pop Rush a library in Moscow

Turn 3 955 BC
Pop Rush Granary in St. Pet.
More exploration with Workboats
Switch to Binary Research (0%/100%)
Start Granary in Moscow

Turn 4 940 BC
Start warrior in St. Pet. (so we can send the WC south towards catherine's last city)
Worker complete in Mephis, build cottages.
Our magnificent empire is connected bringing happiness to many people.

Turn 5 925 BC
Workboat finished in Elep start granary.
Library finished in Thebes start on Granary.

Turn 6 910 BC
Warrior finished in St. Pete start Library.
More cottages and Workboat exploration.

Turn 7 895 BC
Move WB south of Incence and Find the puny Buddhist Cyrus. His empire consists of 4 cities and he is far behind us. I sign a open-boarders agreement and start exploring to the south of his continent.
Pop Rush Granary in Thebes, start on a WC.

Turn 8 880 BC
Nothing happened anywhere.

TUrn 9 865 BC
Pyramids built in far away land.
Rush Workboat in Hele.
More cottages.

Turn 10 850 BC
Not much.

Here is the save.

Some notes:
Alphabet done next turn, we will be able to trade with 2 partners. Several cottages and libraries were completed, gems brouight to Thebes and a general improvement in our economy. Cyrus is currently far behind us except in culture. Once we get as much as possible from catherine we are ready with 6 WCs to attack her. We might wait till she builds a worker/settler before we attack. Did not start a settler in my turnset.

Paulk

Paulk
Jun 02, 2006, 09:35 PM
According to the submissions graph it looks like we are 1st for points! We have lost some of our power but it appears we are the most cultured at this time.

DaviddesJ
Jun 02, 2006, 11:03 PM
I don't like rushing the 2nd workboat in Heliopolis, we'd be considerably better off if we had waited for the previous unhappiness to wear off (and/or for the city to grow to size 3). Now we have too few people to work all of our tiles anyway, and we're going to hit the happiness limit before we can rush again. (With +2 unhappiness, now we really must wait another 21 turns before rushing.)

We can use the clams for health, plus they are better than the floodplain/farm tile we're presently working; I think we should just be improving the tiles we've got, rather than sailing those workboats around any more. It's interesting to find another fish NE of Thebes, and maybe this is a reason to site an extra city 3E of Memphis, but it's not going to be a high priority (we still have several other sites to settle, too).

But overall it looks like we're doing quite well.

DaviddesJ
Jun 02, 2006, 11:18 PM
P.S. We're only about 16 turns from size 4 in Heliopolis, if we maximize growth. What we probably want to do is grow to size 4 in 21 turns, then we can pop rush the granary. With the extra turns, I'd suggest we build a partial settler (or worker) once we reach size 3, switching back to granary at the right time to arrive at size 4 just when our current unhappiness penalty wears off.

Another idea would be to mine the plains hill near Heliopolis, then when we reach size 3 we could work that instead of the food tiles, slowing our growth to size 4, and giving us extra hammers toward the granary. I don't think this is really better, though.

Note, the way you figure out when the unhappiness will wear off is to look at the number of turns of unhappiness when you mouseover the pop rush button, and then subtract 15. I.e., currently in Heliopolis it shows +1 unhappiness for 36 turns, this means that the current +2 unhappiness will last another 21 turns. If we were to rush again before it expires, then we would be at +3 unhappiness for the next 36 turns (which would be terrible).

civ_steve
Jun 04, 2006, 06:57 PM
@DaviddesJ - I appreciate constructive criticism :) , please keep it coming!

OK, MailMan and Keith Larson, it's been two days with no 'got-it' post. Technically MailMan is next, but he asked for a swap/pass this round on the 31st. Haven't gotten a post from Keith since the 28th. DaviddesJ is 3rd up (I believe) and it's been long enough. Of these 3, whoever wishes the next turnset, please post a 'got-it' post.

DaviddesJ
Jun 04, 2006, 07:46 PM
OK, I'll take it. I'll do my turn tonight. MailMan said he'll be back on Monday.

MailMan
Jun 05, 2006, 12:06 AM
I am back. I will play after DaviddesJ if is OK with everyone. I still need to read all the posts.

DaviddesJ
Jun 05, 2006, 01:04 AM
835 BC update: Catherine has Mysticism, Sailing, Hunting, Masonry (but won't trade any of them yet); needs Pottery, Writing. Since she has Sailing, we could trade resources to her, but of course she doesn't have anything we want.

Cyrus has Mysticism, Hunting, Masonry; needs Writing. We can trade Writing for Masonry, or for both Mysticism and Hunting, or we can wait, if we figure neither is especially useful to us yet.

I'm inclined to trade for Masonry, figuring we'll need it eventually, but I'm open to other opinions. Then I'll research Iron Working (but at 0% for a while).

MailMan
Jun 05, 2006, 01:34 AM
Masonry sound good to me. we currently do not need hunting/archery since we have resources. we can pick them up later on.
we can do without mysticism as well for now.

Masonry can be used to get that stone.

Phabuk
Jun 05, 2006, 03:39 AM
ok so mailman plays after davidjes and I play after mailman ?


I agree to trade writing for masonry. Probably we should go to sailing soon if we want to send exploration units to cyrus land, and also on defence purpose. Naval units will have a great imortance in this game, I guess...

by the way, I totally agree with a criticism spirit: we should not hesitate to discuss our decision with good arguments. It 's true also that it is impossible to micromanage every turnset, and probably it would be less interesting: the aim here is to have a team play and let a little part of random with the different players styles.

DaviddesJ
Jun 05, 2006, 03:51 AM
Turn 110, 850 BC: St Petersburg citizen to coast
Turn 110, 850 BC: Elephantine citizen to cows
Turn 110, 850 BC: Research to 90%
Turn 110, 850 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!

Turn 111, 835 BC: Spotted wine inside Cyrus's borders.
Turn 111, 835 BC: Workboat improves fish near Heliopolis
Turn 111, 835 BC: Memphis grows to size 5
Turn 111, 835 BC: Memphis switches to settler
Turn 111, 835 BC: You have discovered Masonry!
Turn 111, 835 BC: Research to 0%

Turn 112, 820 BC: Catherine asks for Alphabet which I decline
Turn 112, 820 BC: Catherine builds worker in Novgorod
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian warrior south of Thebes

Turn 113, 805 BC: Fishing boat improves clams near Heliopolis

Turn 114, 790 BC: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!
Turn 114, 790 BC: Heliopolis moves citizen to cottage
Turn 114, 790 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 115, 775 BC: Moscow moves citizen to rice
Turn 115, 775 BC: Moscow builds warrior
Turn 115, 775 BC: Heliopolis moves citizen to fish
Turn 115, 775 BC: Thebes moves citizen to cottage
Turn 115, 775 BC: Memphis rushes settler for 2 pop
Turn 115, 775 BC: Memphis builds settler, resumes library

Turn 117, 745 BC: Alexandria has been founded.

Turn 118, 730 BC: Elephantine pop rushes granary with 1 pop

Turn 119, 715 BC: Spotted purple border but no contact

Turn 120, 700 BC: Spotted another purple border, contact soon
Turn 120, 700 BC: Russian borders expand!
Turn 120, 700 BC: Russia completes mine on copper

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC0700_01.Civ4SavedGame

DaviddesJ
Jun 05, 2006, 04:06 AM
I made a few mistakes this cycle. Mistimed some of my worker movements, so it will take longer to connect the silver than it should have been. Built an axeman in Thebes, which probably should have been another WC instead---we could use it now. I may have overexpanded, which is costing us a lot of maintenance. And I overlooked the likelihood of Russian cultural expansion.

At the beginning of the 700 BC turn, Russia's borders expanded and kicked my WCs back away from her capital. I also have a couple that are out of position temporarily. Last I saw her capital, it had 3 archers, but that was many turns ago. Now, with the cultural expansion, it defends at 40% and will be harder to take.

Catherine just finished the mine on the copper. She has a road next to her capital but hasn't connected the copper yet. I think she will spend the next 3 turns building a road on the copper. We have two offensive choices:

1. Declare war immediately, steal the worker, and then spend a couple of turns moving our WCs into position.

2. Wait two turns while we move our WCs into position (most of them on the tile 2S of Moscow), and then attack and steal the worker.

Advantage of plan #1 is that we get the worker sooner, and we can sit on top of the copper to block her use of it, reducing her production (unless she comes out to attack us, which is good for us).

Advantage of plan #2 is that we avoid triggering war until we have all of our forces ready to move in. She can't build spearmen since the copper still isn't connected.

I'm reasonably comfortable with either of these plans. I do think we should probably pick one or the other; I don't want to just leave her alone when we have a good chance to grab her worker and hopefully finish her off. I wish I had grabbed the worker and killed her before she went up to 40% defense. :mad:

Phabuk
Jun 05, 2006, 11:02 AM
We must declare war now ! Even if it is more difficult now, we are far more powerful than russia and war will be a little bit longer, that's all...

civ_steve
Jun 05, 2006, 12:25 PM
I would declare now and grab the Worker. We might even use the Worker as bait - let it move in to scout Novgorod, then move back away. If an Archer comes after the Worker, that would be it for the Archer!

MailMan, looks like you are up. Phabuk is on deck unless we hear from Keith Larson.

At what point should we be willing to trade Alphabet? The AI will learn it eventually allowing full trading to occur; I would rather take advantage of that trade then to let it disappear for good.

Paulk
Jun 05, 2006, 12:34 PM
I agree we should first trade as much as possible to Catherine than declare war and take the worker. She will only have archers for the time being so we should be fine. Finish HER!

Keith Larson
Jun 05, 2006, 12:45 PM
Sorry,

Here is my "I got it." I will play tonight.

MailMan
Jun 05, 2006, 12:54 PM
I got it.
I will look at the save now, and post a plan of action for discussion purposes

MailMan
Jun 05, 2006, 12:55 PM
cross posted with KL - you get it.

MailMan
Jun 05, 2006, 01:13 PM
after looking at the save my thoughts are:

- attack now. there is no reason to wait, we can move the forces while in war. I like CS idea about the worker bait.
note that the last Russian city is not on a hill which will make it a much easier target.
After that city is gone we will need the WC as city garrison.
Prepare for some WW - especially from former Russian citizens.

- trade only after we meet the AI with the purple borders (India?) we may be able to get some more techs.

- I would set us on 100% research in 3 turns (2 more libraries should be built by than).

- tech discussion - what should we get after IW?

DaviddesJ
Jun 05, 2006, 01:54 PM
I'd personally lean toward attacking in two turns. I'm not sure we gain anything by attacking now vs two turns from now. The worker isn't going anywhere, as I'm almost certain it's going to start building road for the copper. If she tries to protect the worker, that's good for us; it makes it easier for us to attack her archers in the open. Attacking now gets us a bit more unhappiness and perhaps tilts her a bit more into war mode.

But it's not a big deal, and we can go either way, with similar results.

Catherine isn't going to trade us anything, that's not really an issue.

I think we shouldn't trade away Alphabet until we've met everyone we can meet (or if we can get something we really want). Otherwise the AIs will start trading among themselves and that will hurt our own trading opportunities.

After Iron Working, I'd suggest Mathematics and Sailing as the next highest priorities. If we can trade for one or both, so much the better. Switching to 100% research in 3 turns sounds about right, which should give us Iron Working around the end of MailMan's rotation.

Using the worker as lure (put it next to Novgorod but not on the road, so that if she moves an archer out to capture it, then it can't retreat the same turn) is acceptable, as long as we have enough WCs in range to defeat any stack she moves out of the city.

I built one more warrior as garrison, but from now on we should probably only build axemen (to the extent we want to stockpile some for an eventual overseas war), and if a city doesn't have barracks than build that first.

DaviddesJ
Jun 05, 2006, 02:36 PM
By the way, did everyone notice that Cyrus has five fish/clams resources, at his capital? Seems like a good reason to attack him next (in case we needed a reason!).

Keith Larson
Jun 05, 2006, 05:27 PM
After much soul searching this afternoon I have come to the conclusion that I am just too busy right now to contribute significantly to a GOTM. I rarely have the time or the energy to even check the progress of the game. Perhaps later on work will ease up, but right now the added pressure of participating in a GOTM has taken all the fun out of the activity. Please humbly accept my apologies.

So Mail Man, you take it.

Keith Larson

DaviddesJ
Jun 05, 2006, 05:46 PM
After much soul searching this afternoon I have come to the conclusion that I am just too busy right now to contribute significantly to a GOTM. I rarely have the time or the energy to even check the progress of the game. Perhaps later on work will ease up, but right now the added pressure of participating in a GOTM has taken all the fun out of the activity. Please humbly accept my apologies.

We've all been there! No need to apologize, at all. There's no reason to keep doing something when it's not fun. I hope you'll stay on as a lurker and perhaps when relieved of the pressure to "have to" contribute, you'll find a time when it's fun to do so.

DaviddesJ
Jun 05, 2006, 05:47 PM
It 's true also that it is impossible to micromanage every turnset, and probably it would be less interesting: the aim here is to have a team play and let a little part of random with the different players styles.

Well said. I'll try to support this principle.

MailMan
Jun 06, 2006, 12:26 AM
I got it. I will probably play tomorrow's night

civ_steve
Jun 06, 2006, 12:30 AM
Very sorry to hear that, Keith (and in both threads). And very understandable - the game and SGOTM should be fun. Please lurk and provide comments if you have the time and if the load lightens up later, perhaps you can play in for a round or two.

MailMan - it is yours, followed by Phabuk.

I also believe that it's impossible to micromanage every turnset (and any expectation of that will only lead to frustration!) But I am interested in ways to play better and that almost always means paying attention to the details. So I like those discussions and comments (but don't expect anything miraculous!) :)

Just to be clear, DaviddesJ, you propose we declare, but not attack the Worker for 2 Turns to see if Catherine will place an Archer for defense of the Worker? This prevents the road from being completed, we still gain the Worker, and we might get a shot at an Archer outside of Novgorod's defensive benefit. If so, sounds good.

For research, Math and then Sailing sounds fine.

MailMan
Jun 06, 2006, 12:52 AM
Math is usually learned early by the AI, I think we should consider follow something else:

- Literature for the great library
- Metal casting for the forges and the colossus
- sailing first and go for the great lighthouse

DaviddesJ
Jun 06, 2006, 01:15 AM
Just to be clear, DaviddesJ, you propose we declare, but not attack the Worker for 2 Turns to see if Catherine will place an Archer for defense of the Worker?

No, I think we should not declare war at all for two turns. If we declare war without attacking, we get all of the disadvantages (the worker will probably retreat to the capital, we suffer war unhappiness in our cities, we trigger a possible switch to military production by Catherine) with none of the advantages. If we don't declare war for two turns, we can move all of our WCs into position where they can reach Catherine's capital in two more turns. We declare war in 670 BC and grab the worker, then we attack the capital in 655 BC with all 8 of our WCs. This should be a sure win if she has 3 archers, probably even against 4.

DaviddesJ
Jun 06, 2006, 01:30 AM
Math is usually learned early by the AI, I think we should consider follow something else:

- Literature for the great library
- Metal casting for the forges and the colossus
- sailing first and go for the great lighthouse

I'm hoping we can get Sailing from the purple civ. Otherwise, I agree on Sailing first. We should get Sailing for the immediate trade boost (probably roughly +1 commerce for every city), plus the possibility of building galleys to start moving over to the new world, plus the possibility of building the Great Lighthouse.

After that, I have no problem with going for something else instead of Math. Literature would be great if we had marble, but we don't. Metal Working is ok, but it's awfully expensive, and the Colossus isn't that good, imho. Probably we should just turn research to 0% for several turns, after Iron Working, before deciding what to do next. (When we're about to get Iron Working, turn research to the minimum that turn that still completes it, to minimize carryover.)

By the way, we're going to get some gold from pillaging Novgorod when we take it, so perhaps we should turn research to 100% sooner rather than later. The sooner we get IW the sooner we can mine the gems, of course.

The worker south of Moscow was supposed to be building a road to the rice, before he got booted out. He could resume that plan, then head north to work on the gems. There are also two workers near St Petersburg who should hang around building mines, etc., until IW. Of course, the two workers in the north should first mine the silver and then road it.

DaviddesJ
Jun 06, 2006, 01:35 AM
By the way, we probably do need to pick up the pace a bit so we don't end up running out of time. We're the second slowest team at this point.

I don't think we'll have to play to 1730 AD (I plan to win long before then), but there's still a lot of turns to go.

ainwood
Jun 06, 2006, 01:38 AM
I'm back - pity to hear Keith isn't. :(

BTW - have we thought about going for the oracle?

MailMan
Jun 06, 2006, 01:40 AM
Aren't we too late to get the Oracle? we still need something like 20 turns of research before we can start build it (maybe less due to trading)

DaviddesJ
Jun 06, 2006, 02:21 AM
More than a bit late for the Oracle, Huayna Capac built it in 1120 BC! That's how he got Civil Service, remember?

civ_steve
Jun 06, 2006, 12:44 PM
Thanks for the clarification on declaring War. You were concerned about marshalling our forces for optimal impact, hence the 2 turns delay. (I confused that 2 turns delay with leaving the Worker out building roads, not the case).

Good Luck, MailMan! Hope the 'purples' are feeling like trading.

And I agree that we should pick the pace up; Phabuk, you're next so be ready to 'get it' when MailMan posts his turns.

ainwood
Jun 06, 2006, 02:14 PM
More than a bit late for the Oracle, Huayna Capac built it in 1120 BC! That's how he got Civil Service, remember?
Yeah - I remembered that this morning - 'cause they got bureaucracy as well. Hopefully that means they didn't get fuedalism, but IIRC, there was actually a bit of a gap between the oracle & civili service.

Phabuk
Jun 06, 2006, 03:18 PM
Phabuk, you're next so be ready to 'get it' when MailMan posts his turns.

I'll be ready! If everything goes right, i'll play on thursday evening...

DaviddesJ
Jun 06, 2006, 06:57 PM
Yeah - I remembered that this morning - 'cause they got bureaucracy as well. Hopefully that means they didn't get fuedalism, but IIRC, there was actually a bit of a gap between the oracle & civili service.

We don't know when he got Civil Service. There was a gap between when he built the Oracle, and when he switched to Bureaucracy. This could be because he wasn't able to (or chose not to) go through anarchy right away, or just because he spent several turns in anarchy.

ainwood
Jun 07, 2006, 03:10 AM
^^Happy birthday, BTW! :beer:

civ_steve
Jun 07, 2006, 09:18 AM
Why so it is - Happy Birthday, DaviddesJ! :bday: Hope its :thumbsup:

MailMan
Jun 07, 2006, 12:34 PM
the 565BC SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC0565_01.Civ4SavedGame)

summery:
early - met India, conquer Russia, trades for sailing
middle - research IW
late - trade IW for 3 techs

preturn
move chariots near Russia

1. 685BC
barb warrior showed up SW of capital
capital: axe --> WC
Memphis: library --> worker (let it grow to wear off happiness issues)
meet India and make a trade
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
which raises our relations:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Civ4ScreenShot00121.JPG

I also traded cows for pigs and sign open borders treaty

We can not declare war on India!

I declared war on Catherine, took her worker and set it as bait.
Changed production in Alexandria to lighthouse

2. 670BC
Catherine did not took the worker bait.
we have 6 WC against her 3 archers:
the battle went like this:
1xp WC at 21.1% loses to archer (0.4 left)
combat III WC at 62.6% loses (1.2 left)
combat I WC at 28.3% retreat. the archer left with 1.9
combat II WC wins at 89.1%
combat II WC wins at 99.6%
combat I WC wins at 100%

Russia eliminated

set science to 100% (306g -38gpt). IW in 6

3. 655BC
St. Pete: library --> galley (transport for future settlers)
Moscow will be a great producing city. build a farm near it

4. 640BC
the barb warrior that showed up on the first turn tried to attack a WC and perished
Cyrus wanted alphabet. I said no
rushed barracks at Moscow. worker is next in line

5. 625BC
rushed granary at Heliopolis. lighthouse is next

6. 610BC
nothing really happened

7. 595BC
HC adopted OR
lower science to 20%

8. 580BC
game crashed reloaded from autosave

we got:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Civ4ScreenShot00142.JPG
queue up metal casting. forges will give us 2 happy. set science to 0%
I connected the silver
there is iron SW of the capital, outside our borders.

Cyrus offered only myst for IW. it means that he is very close to researching it himself.
I made the deal in order to get more techs from India next turn.

Judaism spread to Moscow. I did not revolted to it since it will give us nothing at this point and ruin our relations with Cyrus.
if India request us to adopt it, we should accept.

9. 565BC
trade IW to India for poly + hunting.
switch Moscow to worker.

I thought I played 10 turns, but played only 9, so next player, can play 11.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Civ4ScreenShot00163.JPG


Here is your Session Turn Log from 700 BC to 565 BC:

Turn 121, 685 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 121, 685 BC: You have declared war on Catherine!
Turn 121, 685 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (5.00) vs Catherine's Archer (6.75)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Combat Odds: 21.1%
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer has defeated Peanut's War Chariot!
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (6.50) vs Catherine's Archer (6.45)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Combat Odds: 62.6%
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer has defeated Peanut's War Chariot!
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (5.50) vs Catherine's Archer (6.45)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Combat Odds: 28.3%
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (6.00) vs Catherine's Archer (4.12)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Combat Odds: 89.1%
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 21 (43/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 21 (22/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 21 (1/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Catherine's Archer!
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (6.00) vs Catherine's Archer (2.58)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 23 (17/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Catherine's Archer!
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot (5.50) vs Catherine's Archer (1.01)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Catherine's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Catherine's Archer!
Turn 122, 670 BC: You have captured Novgorod!!!
Turn 122, 670 BC: The Russian Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 122, 670 BC: The borders of Memphis have expanded!

Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Peanut's War Chariot (5.50)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 123, 655 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Peanut's War Chariot is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Peanut's War Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 124, 640 BC: You have constructed a Barracks in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Worker.
Turn 124, 640 BC: The borders of Alexandria have expanded!

Turn 126, 610 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 127, 595 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 128, 580 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 128, 580 BC: Judaism has spread in Moscow.

Turn 129, 565 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 129, 565 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

DaviddesJ
Jun 07, 2006, 01:41 PM
1xp WC at 21.1% loses to archer (0.4 left)
combat III WC at 62.6% loses (1.2 left)
combat I WC at 28.3% retreat. the archer left with 1.9
combat II WC wins at 89.1%
combat II WC wins at 99.6%
combat I WC wins at 100%

I think it's better to send in the 4th level WC later, when it has an 80-90% chance, to advance it toward level 5 so we can build West Point eventually. Plus having an extra high-level unit is worth losing a lower-level unit. But not a big deal and I'm glad we won!

Moscow will be a great producing city. build a farm near it

I would have interrupted this as soon as IW was available, in order to go help clear jungle and build mines near St Petersburg. You could always come back to finish the farm later. (I'm not convinced we'll need the farm, but I'm not sure. Certainly we don't need it right away. Note that, even without Calendar, we could get a 3f tile just by clearing the jungle on the sugar near Moscow.)

I connected the silver

You didn't switch the citizen in Alexandria to work the silver mine! We should do this asap.

Cyrus offered only myst for IW. it means that he is very close to researching it himself.

Are you sure? Maybe he just doesn't like us much (we declined to give him Alphabet, etc.).

Judaism spread to Moscow. I did not revolted to it since it will give us nothing at this point and ruin our relations with Cyrus.
if India request us to adopt it, we should accept.

Agree with that, in the long term we are likely to adopt Judaism to cement relationship with India. Cyrus will almost surely be our next target.

By the way, I think Novgorod should be building/chopping for a granary, not library. And lighthouse after granary. The biggest problem here will be growing the city. The library will take a long time and benefit will be minimal especially if the city has no granary or lighthouse and remains small.