Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 1 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170295) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

This first SGOTM will not feature any advanced variant.. the winner simply will be the team that wins the game at the earliest game date with either domination or a diplomatic victory. All victory conditions are still enabled though, with exception of Space Race, so you have to avoid getting another type of victory (and of course prevent the AIs from winning).

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of May 12.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM01_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Hapshepsut of Egypt
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Mystery
Game Speed - Epic

Permanent Alliances are turned on (can form permanent alliances after either communism or fascism is researched)
Space race is disabled.
Egypt is locked into war with Huayna Capac of the Incas.
Egypt is locked into peace with an unknown civilization.

The map is hand built, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization4 v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award - the Gold Laurels.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by either domination or diplomacy.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Good luck to your team, and remember rule #1: Enjoy your game :D

ChrTh checking in. So we're permanently locked into peace with an unknown civilization? Hrmmm ... if we do a permanent alliance, we shouldn't do it with that Civ since they should already be positively pre-disposed towards us.

If we move the settler one tile east, we'll have 14 Flood Plains in our fat T. :eek: Ignoring the health issue, we will have two river access which should help early on with access to other cities.

EDIT:
By the way, I think we should go for a diplomatic win ... and to make it challenging, let's try for the exact vote! :D

Always peace... means if we go domination we'd have to make sure their landmass never eliminates (mathematically) our chance of covering land. Population is fudgable, but land mass not so much... Ick

As far as city sites - 1 tile east seems to be a better site. Just having the rivers for quick hookup is pretty big, plus it utilizes the far east hill better then a second city would (cleaner city borders). The other option is to move gives up the northern river one tile SE. That brings the cows into our cross as well as the 4th hill. It does pick up a useless desert in exchange for the lake. Too bad the warrior and settler aren't switched!

Always peace... means if we go domination we'd have to make sure their landmass never eliminates (mathematically) our chance of covering land. Population is fudgable, but land mass not so much... Ick


I *think* that if you do Permanent Alliance, your landmasses and population get added together for victory conditions, so if we go Domination we will want to PA with them.

EDIT: So I need to qualify my comment in the earlier post: PA with always-peace if going for Domination but not Diplomacy ... probably.

eektor checking in. I was thinking with bobrath about going south east for the city, so we can get a lot of floodplains and still have the cow. ChrTh brings up a good point with the two rivers. Although with just one road we would be connected to the two rivers right a way.

Although I think domination might get the quicker time, I would like to go for diplomatic. What do you guys think?

Is the river bonus to health cumulative? ... EDIT: I guess it doesn't matter because current location is next to fresh water too.

How about 1 south? Get the cow and pick up the hill due east.

1 SW is the plains hill, people allways say its nice to have the 2 hammer CC early on. Grabs the Cows too...

But with this food... We will be working the hill soon enough I think, promoting the Hammerless FP to having a hammer is just as good in my book....
Then again we could simply jump on the hill, look around and deside to go 1 east anyway...

Tho if its a 'generated' map there should be some goodies hidden in the fog...

Lets the fun begin gays and galls :)

Thinking, thinking, thinking ... :hmm:

Some initial thoughts:
By giving us a permanent enemy and a permanent friend, TPTB have essentially ensured that there will be no quick victories in this game. Throw in the fact that this is epic speed, and we're in it for the long haul.

That being said, the faster we can research, the faster we can win. While I don't advocate a direct path to Mass Media, regardless of whether we're going for Domination or Diplomacy we should head towards Communism or Fascism.

I think, then, we're going to want to Cottage-spam the flood plains. We might want to turn our capital essentially into a research+worker/settler generator and make our second city our military producer.

I agree going 1S, not only for the cow, but the extra production. There's a ton of hills in the SW, and with all the FP we can mine them all...


I don't think the river bonus is cumulative, but I haven't found a definitive answer one way or another.

As for the always-peace with <unknown> civ, We'd have to still cultivate the relationship with them in order to get a perminent alliance or anything. The wildcard is, how they end up getting along with Inca. If they get friendly with Hyana, we could be in a pickle.

Ok, I'm assuming I'm going to start. I was thinking of an order like this:

Maquis
ChrTh
GreyFox
Eektor
namlaiM
bobrath

Anyone have another thought? We've got GreyFox and namliaM that can poosibly take turns off-hours for us USA folks... so alternating those can possibly help to speed up the game...

Or maybe we don't want to worry about any kind of speed, rather take more time to facilitate more discussion?


Ok, one last thought... what to research/build at the start? Since we're at war from the start, we can't leave the capital undefended... just in case HC comes wandering by with a Quecha! At least another warrior to start with?

For research, do we try Buddism or Hinduism? It's Monarch, but with the extra commerce from the flood plains and lake tile, we should be able to grab one (I wouldn't try for both though, there's bound to be another spiritual civ)

Well, short of going for Stonehenge, I don't think there's anything we can build early on except for Warriors (obviously won't want to go for Settlers/Workers right off the back).

We're spiritual, so revolutions are anarchy-free. With all the commerce from the (cottaged) flood plains, we should be able to easily finance Organized Religion for the build bonus in the early going, so maybe heading for an early religion is a good idea.

EDIT: We can build barracks, but I don't see a need for them unless we plan on :hammer: the competition pretty early.

I agree going for an early religion may be good, we'll just have to watch ourselves, and maybe try to get our religion spread to our peace parter (at least, more spread would be good)

I don't think stonehedge is worth it, since we are Creative. The only benefit would be the GPP points for a shrine, but we can get that elsewhere (hire priests or maybe Oracle)

I don't think stonehedge is worth it, since we are Creative. The only benefit would be the GPP points for a shrine, but we can get that elsewhere (hire priests or maybe Oracle)

Agreed. Hmm, perhaps we should farm a few of the flood plains so we can switch to GPP Factory if needed.

Took a look at the game. It's about 34 techs to Fascism, and 29 techs to Communism. However, if you add Mass Media as your second target, it's 34 techs to Mass Media via Communism, and 45 to Mass Media via Fascism. Therefore, heading towards Communism (again, doesn't have to be a beeline) is a quicker path regardless of which method of victory we're going for.

Here are some of my thoughts for a starting strategy. With all the floodplains around, I think we should try to make our capital into a science city. Cottages on the floodplains, with an early library and academy and we will be making lots of beakers. Also, if we can get bureacracy that will be an additional 50% commerce to add to the beakers. Here's an idea for a research path.

1. Animal Husbandry (to see where the horses are for our uu the war chariot. Also, if we settle with the cows in the big fat T we can create a pasture.)
2. Pottery (this can be saved later if you want but if we have a worker we should research this asap to get the cottages up)
3. Writing ( To get a library up and running. Once this is done I would suggest to build a library in the capital and then create 1 or 2 scientists to try to get a great scientist to create an academy)

After this I would add mining and bronze working or if things are going well with our chariots then go mysticism, meditation, and priesthood to start working on the Oracle.

While working on the Oracle, research Code of Laws and then use the free tech to discover Civil Service for macemen.

Anyways that's some of my ideas.

As for religion, I wouldn't go for an early one, I prefer to get Confucianism with code of laws.

As for building units, I think we should definitely start with a warrior. We can send the other warrior out and hopefully we can create some trouble for the Incans. Either stealing a worker or just making sure they keep their worker in the city.

After a warrior or two, start on a worker and then settler. I would try to build the library as quickly as it comes up though.

A couple more thoughts:

Using the assumption that all moderators are by definition evil, my guess is that we share the landmass with our "Always Peace" civ and there are no other Civs on the landmass. Further along that assumption, the Incans will be far far away. Just a guess, but one I feel good about.
If this is the case (we'll find out pretty quick), we'll want to make our capital a Settler-spamming city.

The nice thing about having an Always War opponent is that it makes one part of diplomacy easier: the mutual struggle bonus. Getting other people to fight the Incans will help in our relations with them. Also, it's possible that since we're locked into war with them, we won't get the 'you declared war on our friend' penalty...but I'm not sure.

On: Oracle/Civil Service slingshot ... how hard is it to do on Monarch? And does the reduction in chopping with 1.61 make it harder?

You know, I always thought the Incans would be close by because if we are at always war it could slow us down since we have to worry about the incans at the very beginning.

Although that would be very evil if they put the always peace civ right next to us and the always war civ far away.

As for CS slingshot, that's a good question about the change in chopping. If the CS slingshot isn't possible, we could always try to research it after maybe alphabet (so we can trade for all the early techs we didn't get).

As for trying for the Oracle, the nice thing we have going for us is the number of hills. We should be able to get a decent enough produciton going. I don't think that we'd have any trouble getting the Oracle built, as long as we try to prioitize it somewhat. I'm just not sure if it would work out to get the CS slingshot or not...

I do wonder if the incans will be far away. I think it would be just a little too hard on people if they were right next door and the Quechas start rushing in...

It's good to see we're already beating the other teams in number of posts! :thumbsup: ;)

There's just not enough information at this point to determine how we're going to handle the capital. I suspect we may be replacing some towns with farms at some point in the future.

BTW, Maquis, that roster looks good. Are we thinking 30-20-20 for # turns?

In terms of religion, I'm thinking we should head towards Judaism, i.e. get Masonry first, then Polytheism, then Monotheism. We can get Animal Husbandry and Pottery at any point (i.e. I'm not saying we should beeline to mono)

Geez, I haven't even wake up and we are heading towards page 2 already.

I say all these are speculations. More land need to be revealed before we know what techs are more appropriate. From face value, agree with settling 1S, but my reasons is exactly opposite to Maquis: not for the production hills, but for the cows. There are ample hills in the Big Fat Cross (actually, I don't understand why people call it the Big Fat T. Because it is not a Big T, its a cross. If you want to call it T, you'll have to call it a Small Fat 't' ... :lol:) if we settled right where the settler is. So the only reason why you want to move down south and lose the fresh water is to get the cows.

Tech-wise, since we don't start with Mystic, we have no choice but to go for the later religion. Agree with ChrTh on going Mining first, then Masonry, Mysticism, Polythesim and then Monotheism. We would most likely miss Hinduism. We may want to go for the Animal Husbandry before Polythesim, once we are working on the worker. Why?

As oppsed to Maquis, I am a huge fan of cows. Yes, we have hills. But the problem of hills is it is not self-supporting. You sacrifice early growth (which the single most critical factor in deciding your game) by trying to work on the hills. Whereas the cows allow you to get ample hammers and still have +1 surplus food which is extremely important. I couldn't stress the importance of early growth enough. And remember, earlier on, the main production hog is not the buildings, it is actually worker and settlers, which means hammer is not the only production determination factor. You can produce a settler faster with 10F2H than someone with 4F6H.

We could go for the Oracle, but CS-Slingshot is close to impossible on Monarch. Or at least, i have never managed to do that on Monarch. I say if we go for Oracle, our reason is simply for denial purposes (plus the GProphet points), rather than attempting the CS Slingshot. I was never a huge fan of CS-Slingshot anyway.

What I am a fan of, is the Great Library push. I have never failed to get it if I am determined enough, even on emperor, with or withour marble. It will help to level the AI's research advantage.

--

Tech-wise, since we don't start with Mystic, we have no choice but to go for the later religion. --

:wallbash: had forgotten about that, even though I'd looked at the starting techs multiple times (now you know why I kept checking the victory conditions in VQ04 :D )

Geez, I haven't even wake up and we are heading towards page 2 already.

I'll be very disappointed if we're not on Page 10 before the game starts :spank: ;)

Is the river bonus to health cumulative? ... EDIT: I guess it doesn't matter because current location is next to fresh water too.
No it is not, you get 1 bonus of +2 for health from fresh water. Not +2 From the river and +2 from the lake....
Agreed. Hmm, perhaps we should farm a few of the flood plains so we can switch to GPP Factory if needed.
I never like much the idea of making the capital a GP farm... With the bonus of 8coins its much better suited for research...

I cannot check the game currently but what is up with Mass Media? UN?
3. Writing ( To get a library up and running. Once this is done I would suggest to build a library in the capital and then create 1 or 2 scientists to try to get a great scientist to create an academy) I like getting the Great one in for getting some scientists... But dont know how viable that is on monarch... Never even played monarch...

While working on the Oracle, research Code of Laws and then use the free tech to discover Civil Service for macemen.Is the CS sling viable on Monarch? Maybe we should be aiming CoL or Metal Casting for Oracle, if we get that at all.

the assumption that assumption is the mother of all ??? Yeah...
But in this case you are right, we need to find out asap. This I also posted in the VQ thread...
1) We are on seperate continents, bad ...
2) Same continent and/or near position on a pangea like thing... Bad or good Depends... Not to close hopefully...
3) Islands or something... Allways in human favour...Hmz... This didnt quite spell out the way I wanted it too... but yeah... we have the issue of either a verry early war, or a long and dragged out one...
Also we have the issue of possibly having to content with our 'brother' beeing (to) close

I do wonder if the incans will be far away. I think it would be just a little too hard on people if they were right next door and the Quechas start rushing in...
Dont forget we have fast and early UUs as well. This may just be the point of the assumed to be evil admins... Force us to find the horses asap and use our UU to good extend... The more I think about this the more I believe it...

In terms of religion, I'm thinking we should head towards Judaism, i.e. get Masonry first, then Polytheism, then Monotheism. We can get Animal Husbandry and Pottery at any point (i.e. I'm not saying we should beeline to mono)
If we do go 'hydra hunting' lets try and pick up Poly first...

So the only reason why you want to move down south and lose the fresh water is to get the cows.River gives fresh water bonus too...

Sorry for all the quotes and probably a long post, but I had some catching up to do...

Just a thought... Settle 2 south? This way we max out the land usage in our current possition (visible tiles) maybe allowing for a second research center on the north river?

Thinking again... Yeah I am allmost convinced we will be using our early UU. Thus a priority on AH is needed... Both for the horses and the cows...

Go Hydra hunting? Fat hope! The only viable way of hydra hunting is if you start with Mystic and Mining.

As I mentioned, we need to go Mining (for Hills), Masonry (for Polytheism), Mysticism, Polytheism, Monthesim. Insert Ani-Hus anywhere in between when we start working on worker. Count ourselves lucky if we manange to get Judaism. I wouldn't even dream about Hinduis, not to say Hydra (a Hydra by definition, must be multi-headed).

After that, it pretty much up to debate. You can go for Hydra by pursuing Philosphy and Theology, but I thinks its not worth it.

Alternatively you could go then for BW, and IW, and Metal casting, the standard early path.

My favourite will be to go for the Literature Path, but that's just me.

But in any case, the path after Monothesism (that is, assuming this is what we want) is subject to how the land is explored, who are near us ... etc.

If it were up to me, I would ditch the idea of going religious and concenrtrate instead on the top and bottom branches of the research trees (i.e. the Lit. Path and the IW Path). But of-course, that's just me ... :crazyeye:

I was also :smoke: thinking we could go grab Buddism or Hindu. For some reason I keep thinking spiritual = Mysticism.

I think that the path towards Monotheism is ok. If we miss Judism, we can go for the Oracle and take CoL. This also may be contingent whom we meet and what religion they have. I don't think we want to be a different religion early on with our peace partner. In this case I would go with GreyFox, and go toward Literature and IW...

Are we thinking 30-20-20 for # turns?

That would be fine, unless people want to start 30-25-25? With this being epic, those first 100 turns are going to CRAWL... (I'm not too worried about having even years on turnsets, it's hard in epic)

I'm happy with any order of turns that makes us live up to out acronym - Very Quick. Part of the fun for me has been the pace at which our games tend to move - without a loss in quality. Of course I also appreciate not being next to that Nara loving GreyFox! ;)

I'd like to be bold in our start. Bold, but not entirely foolish of course. Lets get our starting warrior out scouting. Sure if the Incas are right next door, we could be signing our death - unless we manage to find them first.

This map was custom created and not script generated, so toss out any preconceptions about starting crosses being loaded and key resources being in convienent locations. I'm liking founding 1S more and more. Founding there will give us a quick view of the surrounding south and free our warrior for northern exploration. It also lands us in a very nice defensive position - river on two sides to make attacks from the north take a penalty and a nice corridor to our cows that can be easily defended from pillagers.

I do think that Animal Husbandry has dual benefits for us. We can hook up cows and it will show us where Horses are. Since our UU is horse based, I'd like to have that option asap even if we're alone on an island. I don't have many thoughts beyond that for the tech tree. What you folks have discussed above does make sense tho.

Continuing the bold scenario - I'd think that getting another exploring warrior (or ideally a scout/war chariot) or two out in the world will be essential. It gives us the most information about the land and our nearby foes/friends. Where's the tradeoff between getting a worker out to farm up the river vs an exploratory unit? I'd say our starting build order would be warrior - worker - warrior.:king:

Brought over from the sticky on the parent forum. Just be very sure to click only on our forum and don't get lazy and misclick into someone else's. I've also subscribed to this thread so that I can get the read of stuff in total saftey!

Note:
The rules state that you MAY NOT view the discussion threads of any team other than your own.

DO NOT jeopardise your teams chances by doing this. You risk disqualifying your entire team.

1S ... the problem with a custom-generated map is that I can't not think the worst of the moderators ... I mean, look at the the screenshot: if they gave us a horse, the most likely place is on that grassland 1W of the lake. Moving 1S, which looks best, would take the tile out of range for what, 50 turns? 250?

Obviously we shouldn't play based on my paranoia ... but it still bugs me.

As for the Hydra-hunting: maybe a later hydra is worth sorta-pursuing. CoL and Philosophy are both on the road to Communism, so even if we don't grab the religion, we wouldn't have hurt ourselves diverting from one of our goals. The advantage of controlling multiple religions is that it allows us to have some input in creating religious allies ...

Hard staring at the map... there are hills west of that grassland. I think we can overanalyze ourselves to death and end up back where we started (which is having no clue!).

Given the map view only(ie no heinous designer and no civ4 automatic best starting position):
1) Can moving the warrior in any direction do anything to improve our information?
2) Is there a better spot then 1S that is foundable in the first turn?
3) Would delaying founding the city by one turn be worth it in terms of finding out a tad bit more?

1) Can moving the warrior in any direction do anything to improve our information?


Only if we don't want to settle the first turn


2) Is there a better spot then 1S that is foundable in the first turn?


Define 'better' ... if you wanted to make a pure research city, moving 1E is better ... but then Production would be lousy. I think 1S is probably the best 'well-rounded' city site.


3) Would delaying founding the city by one turn be worth it in terms of finding out a tad bit more?

And risk losing by 1 turn?!?! Never! :gripe: ;) ... seriously, I can't imagine there'd be a spot significantly better.

I asked the third question only because a settler is the best scouting unit we have right now... Would moving 1SW take up both of our moves or could we go there and then head to the 1S spot if nothing better shows up?

PS I know I'm posting a lot, but that's just a function of not being in a lot of SGs right now :crazyeye: ... please don't take anything I say as gospel, they're all suggestions, regardless of how authoritatively they're phrased.

I asked the third question only because a settler is the best scouting unit we have right now... Would moving 1SW take up both of our moves or could we go there and then head to the 1S spot if nothing better shows up?

Moving 1SW will use up the Settler's move for the turn.

EDIT: I think moving SW will only reveal 3 tiles we're already able to guess: the forest, the forested hill, and the grassland hill tiles NW, W, and SW of that hill.

PS I know I'm posting a lot, but that's just a function of not being in a lot of SGs right now :crazyeye: ... please don't take anything I say as gospel, they're all suggestions, regardless of how authoritatively they're phrased.
But with big words and a high post count.... all my interweb training says you must be the most smartest!:rolleyes:

But with big words and a high post count.... all my interweb training says you must be the most smartest!:rolleyes:


Yeah, keep thinking that newbie :scan:

:lol:

Moving 1SW will use up the Settler's move for the turn.

EDIT: I think moving SW will only reveal 3 tiles we're already able to guess: the forest, the forested hill, and the grassland hill tiles NW, W, and SW of that hill.

Since its a hill top tho... it would actually show us more then that due to the elevation bonus on line of sight. Its the river crossing that makes the move expensive. Too bad the map developers thougth of everything!

Since its a hill top tho... it would actually show us more then that due to the elevation bonus on line of sight. Its the river crossing that makes the move expensive. Too bad the map developers thougth of everything!

Even from a hilltop, forests and hills reduce your line of sight; if you look at the warrior in the start pic, he can't see the water tile east of him because another hill is in the way. Granted, we may be able to "guess" the tiles past the tiles on the west (just like we can guess the water tile), but wouldn't know about resources, etc. (by the same token, we would know the resources in the 3 'guessed' tiles if we moved SW ... but I'm thinking we shouldn't do it).

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree with ChrTh: We're not going to have horses in our BFC... The SG jus seems to be set up so that there won't be any quick wins. I doubt they'd set it up so we can get our UU up right away and take out a neighbor so quickly.

I still think that 1S is the best to go. I just don't want to move away from those cows, the 2-commerce lake, and we want to stay on the river. It's just a good spot, even if there are horses 3-4 tiles away...

Once we get to slavery, that city is going to get the :whipped: quite often...

I am also leaning more toward trying for Domination... I just haven't had enough experience in diplomacy to feel safe going that route... I just feel the AI is too fickle with the "traded with worst enemy" "you decalred on our friend" and all that crap...

Actually, I think it's more likely that we'll have horses nearby and our Always Peace Civ on the same landmass rather than no horses. That's more evil.


I am also leaning more toward trying for Domination... I just haven't had enough experience in diplomacy to feel safe going that route... I just feel the AI is too fickle with the "traded with worst enemy" "you decalred on our friend" and all that crap...

:cry: How could you say that after all we went through in CTIV-7?!? :cry:

Backdoor domination is always a possibility don't forget.

Thinking about the domination/diplomacy choice, we may have longer to decide than we think. If we're stuck on a landmass with our Always Peace partner, we may not have to decide for centuries (in game time).

OK... 3 pages and we're still 3 days out... man the anticipation is killing me!

OK... 3 pages and we're still 3 days out... man the anticipation is killing me!

:eek: We only have 3 days?!? :eek: I expected us to have 10 pages by now!

EDIT: BTW, does anyone else keep expecting one of the SGOTM mods to pop in and say "Hey! We're not evil!" :devil:

It also lands us in a very nice defensive position - river on two sides to make attacks from the north take a penalty Thinking defence? We are on the northern part of our world. Then we should settle in place... Now we have 2 hills to our immediate west... Not good for defence at all...

I will throw just some suggestions... How about:
- 2 South
Devide the FPs between the capitol and a second city up north
- 2 South-East
Pick up Coastal and a Dessert tile
- North-NorthWest on that Plains forest
Not so good as we get in "trouble" with them mountains
- Relocate to the other river NE-N
Nice and snug on the mountian range...

I think we rulled out E already and Settling on the Plains hill where the warrior is, is a No-No...
The plains hill due SW of the settler is maybe an option, but we want the 4 hammers I think in the mid-term

I do feel a bit like the Cow was put there to draw us, be it good or bad...
Picking up to much FPs without forest will make for a 'hard' start...

I think I see Grass Forest, Forrest hill and Plains hill on the relative NW-W-SW of 'our' plains hill. Atleast ChrTh and I agree that its hill... And we wont see past that...

From our pic, starting position:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM01_start.jpg
I made (or tried to make) a replica, Tell me what you think...
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9079/sgotmreplica0zk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I think it looks pretty simular.... That would make our immediate surroundings look like this:
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1875/sgotmsurroundings3pd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Any Ice is unknown territory....

As for map settings and opponent/friend placing...
Us-Peace-War seems kindoff odd setup to me... Lots of "flatland" fighting with UUs....

Edit: Offcourse I have this map saved, so if anyone wants it. Or if we feel changes are in order.... Please tell me....
We/one of us, could try some tests with this start and see what is most 'efficient' in regards with the buildorder
Warrior (till Grow)-worker or worker of the bat?

Editted later to add:
Sorry about the bodgy river... I couldnt get it just right...

@namliaM: Pretty impressive. I'll have to look at it more later. And I think you're right, that is a Plains hill.

Thinking about the domination/diplomacy choice, we may have longer to decide than we think. If we're stuck on a landmass with our Always Peace partner, we may not have to decide for centuries (in game time).
I will bet since its earliest Domination or Diplomacy, that the one will go along side the other.

Meaning, a team will have the opportunity to win at both no matter the choice a team makes... This implies quite a bit...
1) I dont think we are on a pangea like thing...
2) I think the admins want(ed) to force us to use the UU, meaning Hyuna is 'near enough', why else force the war from the start?
3) Any or atleast some opponents will be on a 'far away' land mass.
4) Our friend will either be far away or to close for comfort.

Edit to add:
See this post by AlanH:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4026214&postcount=10
on 2 days per 10 turns = total about 2 months.
Thats 70 turns per 2 weeks, thats about 8*70 = 560 turns... This is round and about the expectation of the Admins... so we have something to shoot for...

Editted again to add:
If my replica is more or less accurate, moving 1S will make 2 tiles go out of range that may contain any resource.
To my (somewhat limited) knowledge, no resource is hidding in FPs. Therefor we have the 1 Plains and 1 Grass to 'worry' about...

I'm interested to know why you think we're in the northern part of this continent.. I'm willing to say we're on the eastern edge of a landmass (ring map anyone?), but if anything I'd say we're on the SE side and not the NE side - but only because the coast slopes that way.

2S would take 2 turns to get there I think. We'd have to found in the next year. Plus moving that far gets us out side the range of the lake and I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

Plus moving that far gets us out side the range of the lake and I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

I guess IMO that is bad... I like the option of that 2F2C tile at the start... it can help quite a bit (might even shave a turn or two off research by working it from the get-go)

I love how we're already on page 3, and no other team is even on page two. Got to wonder what the admins are thinking... :)


bobrath: :thumbsup: on the swedish chef! Bork Bork!!

2) I think the admins want(ed) to force us to use the UU, meaning Hyuna is 'near enough', why else force the war from the start?

I'm thinking the opposite. I think the admins gave us a Civ with an early UU that we won't be able to use. Ditto Capac. Otherwise a more aggressive team will have an advantage over a team looking to expand carefully.

However, I'm curious about WW ... but I think I'm going to ask a question about it in the Maintenance Thread.

Comeon, guys, speculations are great and all that, but they are all based on assumptions. If we take away all the uncertainty and concentrate on what is revealed, then:
-1S: has the options of being the production beast with hills on the west, forest in the NW, cow.
-2S: you get pretty much the same as 1S, but a lot more unknown tiles than 1S, plus you need an extra turn to settle
-any movement east is a mistake IMHO, unless you move to the coast (which cost you all the movement points in a turn)

we are pretty much limited to option of moving 1S or settling in place.

--

Comeon, guys, speculations are great and all that, but they are all based on assumptions.


You're no fun :p


If we take away all the uncertainty and concentrate on what is revealed, then:
-1S: has the options of being the production beast with hills on the west, forest in the NW, cow.
-2S: you get pretty much the same as 1S, but a lot more unknown tiles than 1S, plus you need an extra turn to settle
-any movement east is a mistake IMHO, unless you move to the coast (which cost you all the movement points in a turn)

we are pretty much limited to option of moving 1S or settling in place.

--

So what's the difference between 1S and in place? Moving 1S swaps:
A plain of unknown (if any) resource for a Cow plain
A forested plain (1B1H0C) for a plains hill (0B2H?C)
A irrigatable grassland (2B0H0C) for a plains hill (0B2H?C)
...and that's it (every other swap is FP for FP)

So we'd be trading 3B for 3H (without improvements) plus the cow bonus and possible additional commerce. We'd also have slightly more defense, but I think either position is easily defensible. So unless we want to turn the capital into a GPP factory, I really see no reason not to move 1s. We can always farm some of the FPs, and there's enough various tiles to work that we can focus on food, commerce, or production at our discretion.

EDIT: Besides the possibility of a river on the other side that would give the hills commerce, either could have gems, gold, copper, etc.

Some more speculation (since GreyFox loves it so much ;) ) ... the one real risk I see from moving 1S is that the grassland would go out of the BFC ... and I got the feeling that there be horsies there ... so I loaded up a game, and this is what I found:

We'll get 4:culture: pt, and we'll need 15 :culture: for the first expansion and 150 :culture: for the second. The grassland, if we move 1S, would be in our cultural boundaries at the second expansion, so it'd be 38 turns (barring no culture buildings) before the grassland would be in our boundaries. Since it'll take us ~14-16 turns to research animal husbandry (we can't work the lake tile until we research Fishing) I don't think it's a deal-breaker.

Before we decide where to build the city, I think we should decide what we want our first city to be - a production city or a research city. If we want a production city we could go south or even south west to get on top of the plain hill. If we want a research city, I think ChrTh's suggestion of going 1 east is great for that. If we move one south east I think it would give us a good research city as well as some production (with the cows and hills) to help us at the beginning. Oh my opinion is to make the capital a research city and put it either one east or south east.

In regard to religion, I suggest not to bother going for one of the early religion. We don't have mysticism and it would be very hard to get one in monarch if there are two or more civs that start with mysticism (Incans are one of them). Instead I think we should go for Confucianism (code of laws).

On research path, I really think the first tech we should research is animal husbandry. We want to know where the horses are. If we get our UU we can postpone Bronze Working. The chopping is nerfed til we research Mathematics, so we might want to wait to chop til then anyways. If we decide to go for a research city, pottery would be good to get to sync when the worker comes out to build cottages on flood plains.

On starting warrior, send the warrior out to explore possibly west. I like the build someone (I forgot and can't see it on the reply area) where they suggested warrior, worker, warrior. I think that is a good one.

As for CS slingshot I know in GOTM 3 people were able to do it. I looked over hendricksoon's writeup and its a pretty good one maybe i'll try to link it up.

Edit: Check post 157 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=158111&page=8)

I'm interested to know why you think we're in the northern part of this continent.. I'm willing to say we're on the eastern edge of a landmass (ring map anyone?), but if anything I'd say we're on the SE side and not the NE side - but only because the coast slopes that way.
I read somewhere that resource pointers point toward the equatar...
Or even the center of the map... But I/they may be mistaken...

If its true tho... We are on the NW part of the map....

I love how we're already on page 3, and no other team is even on page two. Got to wonder what the admins are thinking... :) I will bet you, they are reading every letter....
And they are thinking its a bit more work then they had expected...

What... No comments on my map thing?

I read somewhere that resource pointers point toward the equatar...
Or even the center of the map... But I/they may be mistaken...

If its true tho... We are on the NW part of the map....
Now, that's new!

Did a preliminary (limited) search on the screenshots I have, and they seems to support the "pointing to equator" theory.

What... No comments on my map thing?
Comments? Ok, here you go:

>> YOU GOT THE RIVER ALL WRONG!!! <<<

:lol:

Seriously, nice job, its certainly easier to see with than with fog of war revealing only a bit of the tiles near the fog's edge.

I don't know abt going all research, clearly the capital requires production. But whether we settle in plac,e settle 1S, or settle 1E, we would have a mix of hills and floodplains, which is good for both. The reason why I don't like going 1E is because (1) you pull in at least 3 more floodsplains, (2) you loses at least 2 forest tiles, and (3) its too close to coast but not a coastal city.

Can we take the unhealthiness with extra floodplains and less forests?

EDIT: BTW, does anyone else keep expecting one of the SGOTM mods to pop in and say "Hey! We're not evil!" :devil:
Whatever gave you the idea that there is even a remote chance that am not evil? :satan:

I don't know abt going all research, clearly the capital requires production. But whether we settle in plac,e settle 1S, or settle 1E, we would have a mix of hills and floodplains, which is good for both. The reason why I don't like going 1E is because (1) you pull in at least 3 more floodsplains, (2) you loses at least 2 forest tiles, and (3) its too close to coast but not a coastal city.

Can we take the unhealthiness with extra floodplains and less forests?

I think the answer to the last question is NO. We'd be spending half our time building Ducts and Grocers etc instead of troops or libraries. Plus we wouldn't be able to take advantage of the Bureaucracy civic (at least Production-wise). If it was a second city, sure ... but for our capital? I don't think it's a good idea.

Whatever gave you the idea that there is even a remote chance that am not evil? :satan:

Why do I find this not reassuring?

What... No comments on my map thing?

It was really good and helpful. Sorry I forgot to mention that in my last post.

Whatever gave you the idea that there is even a remote chance that am not evil?

:lol: Ok, now let's think of the absolutely worst circumstances and that is probably it. Watch us and our always peace civ is the only civs in a relatively small land mass.

Oh besides trying to make the longest SGOTM thread, let's try to be the first to finish to stay true to our name :)

BTW I wonder how long it will take til Gyathaar stops reading our thread because we talk too much :lol:

Oh besides trying to make the longest SGOTM thread, let's try to be the first to finish to stay true to our name :)


Actually, I want to finish quickly so I can read through what the other teams are doing (:hmm: maybe I should ask if that's allowed) ... I'm going nuts here not checking up on a couple of them.

At least we're staying on topic with our discussion. Sure, there's a lot of GreyFox-Approved Speculation, but at least it's about the game.

@namliaM: Your map was good, thanks, it helped with my analysis last night. But GreyFox is right, on your map the eastern river goes East then South instead of South then East. Drove me mad for fifteen minutes trying to figure out what was wrong with it :crazyeye:

Based on the assumption that mods are evil:

- the Always Peace civ will be Toku who refuses open border, trade or whatsoever

- the Always War opponent, i.e. Incans, will be very far, on a different land mass, or completely blocked by Toku's closed border

- there will not be horses near our land

- there wll be copper if we settle for it fast

- there will be iron popping in one of the floodplains. ;)

- the Always Peace civ will be Toku who refuses open border, trade or whatsoever


:eek: That would set a new standard for evil.

However, I think Toku's rep may have been mitigated with the patches. In CTIV-6 we were crushed up against Toku the entire game and never went to war with him. In fact, he was Friendly with us for most of the game (same religion).

If I had a choice of which Civ will be 'Always Peace' it'll be Alexander. That sumb*tch always declares war on you. ALWAYS. No matter how good your relations have been. It's like he has a built-in a**hole delay.

Using namliaM's great map... here's a raw breakdown of the city spot:

Here's what I calculate for health issues:

1S: 9 floodplains @ -0.4 health per = -3.6 (rounds to -4 health?)
3 forests @ +0.5 health per = +1.5 heath (rounds to +1 health?)

Net: -3 health (if my rounding is correct) -- Plus access to cow for +1 health

1E: 13 floodplains = -5.2 health (round to -5)
1 forest = 0.5 (0) health
Net: -5 health -- and no cows until 3rd tier expansion


And raw production:

1S: 2 hills (1f1H) 3 plains hills (0F2h) 1 forested hill (1F2H) 2 grassland forest (2F1H) 2 plains (1 w/cow) (2F1H) = 14 raw hammers

1E: 1 hill, 2 plains hills, 2 plains, 1 grassland forest = 8 raw hammers


I don't think we want to give up that much production potential and pick up that much of a heath penalty...

>> YOU GOT THE RIVER ALL WRONG!!! <<<
So I did, will be corrected...

I don't know abt going all research, clearly the capital requires production. But whether we settle in plac,e settle 1S, or settle 1E, we would have a mix of hills and floodplains, which is good for both. The reason why I don't like going 1E is because (1) you pull in at least 3 more floodsplains, (2) you loses at least 2 forest tiles, and (3) its too close to coast but not a coastal city.

Can we take the unhealthiness with extra floodplains and less forests?
1S tho is clearly more powerfull IMHO

Whatever gave you the idea that there is even a remote chance that am not evil? :satan:
Uhm?
Why do I find this not reassuring?
Yeah, big (k)not there in my stummage (spelling?)


It's like he has a built-in a**hole delay. hehehe :cry: Ouch...

So once again the original image...
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM01_start.jpg

My Rip-off:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9140/sgotmripoff1ef.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Visible:
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2600/sgotmripoffvisible1ca.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Thebes if it goes 1 South
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/161/sgotm1s2oa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
+2 food 1 hammer CC
+9 food 0 hammer 9Fps (Cottaged)
+1 food 3 hammer Cow
-3 food 9 hammer 3 grass hills
-6 food 12 hammer plains hills
-1 food 1 hammer 1 plains
== == == == == ==
+2 food 25 hammer

Thebes 1 East, not such a good place to live I think... 1SE would have simular issues
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/882/sgotm1e5pp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Thebes on the spot...
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1797/sgotmonthespot6gx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
+9 food 0 hammer 9Fps (cottaged)
-3 food 3 hammer 3 plains
-2 food 6 hammer 2 Grass hills
-4 food 8 hammer 2 plains hills
==
0 food 17 hammer

Editted to add:
I did fix the river proper like now.... Tho in the screenies of Thebes its bad again...

Re-eddited to figure in food and hammers.... for each site (On the spot and 1S, I personaly have declared 1E to be very very very bad...)

About build order and Research...

Warrior-worker or worker first?

Research...
AH (16) => Mining (9 = 25)
Hunting (7) => AH (14 = 21)=> Mining (9 = 30)
Shaves 2 turns of research of of AH because of the extra pre-req...
and we can build a scout if we wish....
Picking hunting before AH 'costs' 5 turns... (or saves 2 in researching hunting later on)

Or do we want to pick up pottery soon? Which is 13 turns without fishing and 11 with fishing. Fishing itself is the same as hunting 82 beakers, 7 turns.

Building a worker of the bat will take 23 !!! :crazyeye: turns...
A warrior is 22 turns, but with growing
Growing to size 2 takes 11 turns. Now a worker is 18 turns
So this choice is....
a) Grow => Worker
11+18 = 29 turns + 18 commerce and size 2 on turn 29, with nothing improved. 1 turn to farm the fp ...
b) Worker of the bat.
23 turns, no extra commerce.
Leaving 7 turns, turn 1 to move + part farm the FP, turn 24-30 to pasture the cow

So on turn 30 we have either 18 extra commerce, with an unimproved Cow and a size 2 city
or
No extra commerce, but the cow improved meaning + 2 hammers for 6 turns. But we need 5 more turns to grow to size 2, losing 5 more commerce ending up 23 commerce in the hole.
At size 1 netting 10 commerce per turn, 2 turns wurth of research...

After turn 30 strat b will start playing catchup as our worker will finish any improvement 6 turns earlier. Meaning the Farm on the FP which will take 9 more turns to finish. And mines/cottages that go up 6 turns earlier...

Reminder: To work the lake (for the early commerce?) we need to pick up fishing...

Edit to add:
Hunting + AH = worker build (or there about)
We can make Thebes a early science (cottage the place up) or early producer...
Putting it 1S at size 4 we start paying +1 Food per citizen FPs then are "grass" tiles...
Farm 1 FP, Cows, Mined Grass, Mined Plains, CC = +2 food, 11 Hammers
For size 5
- Work a cottaged FP, food neutral tho giving some extra commerce
- Sacrifice growth to work an extra grass hill (+3 hammers)
- Work another Farmed FP for +3 food and faster growing for ultimate :whipped:

On the spot at size 5 we start paying food. But 5 is also the happy limit, so not much calculation to do...

Sorry if I am spamming to much or over analysing... :blush:

Final Edit:
I am editting to stop me from having like 10 posts or something in sequence....

If we want a shot at CS sling, we need to go as fast as possible to CoL right?
AH => Writing(Lib for more beakers) => Myst => Meditation => Priesthood (Oracle) => CoL
or
AH => Myst => Meditation => Priesthood (Oracle) => Writing => CoL

Edit: Namliam did you get those turn counts for epic speed?

I think researching fishing for a single water tile is a less then optimal usage of our resources.

I like the idea for getting Hunting first so we can pop a scout out however, how would we be affected in terms of cows and hooking them up?

I like Warrior - worker - warrior/scout because it gets our city to size 2, makes sure we have a defender close while also allowing more exploration.

If we do go warrior first (imo doing worker first is a bad idea due to stunting growth), then our first worker will be available to go to the cows in what 11 + ?? turns (warrior build time + worker build time). 2 turns walk to the pasture. So that's ... how many turns til we need to have AH researched? If it comes to more then 21, then going Hunting first and then AH might make more sense as we could get a scout out after the worker is finished.

Flip side would be to have mining finishing up as our worker finishes up the pasture (by researching AH then Mining).

Nice job namliaM!

Well, based on those maps, I definitely will not want to settle 1 east. I south looks good although I'm thinking we should try for southwest on the plains hill. On the plain hill there will be 6 flood plains which I'm thinking will reduce the unhealthiness by 1. (One extra population at the beginning would be great) It gets the cows for a +1 health when we hook them up. Also there is a good chance of forests in the other 3 unknown tiles. Best of all that one extra hammer from the plains hill will more than make up for the one turn we lose to set up city there.

I dont know about settling on the plains hill.
1) we lose a turn (-10 commerce and -1 hammer)
2) We lose 2 hammers in the mid/long term per turn

That offcourse if offset by having +1 hammer for a while. Lets say up to turn 75. This means +75 hammers (or 3 chariots), after which Thebes will be strong enough to actually work the mined hill. At which point we go -2 hammers per turn for settling on that hill. Taking another 75 turns to catch up and overtake the FP start of 1S.

Note to bobrath and eektor, you probably read half finished posts by me. Please check the save times of both the posts. They are (way) past your posting times. Please double check and re-read if/where needed. I think I have bob's questions answered anyway.

And Yes those speeds are on Epic speed.

Popping a scout, assuming we do a Worker of the bat, will take 23 turns (for the worker to build) plus about 11 turns (7 turns working a FP and 4 working the improved Cow) for the scout. Finishing on turn 34 (if I did my math right). By then the bad people are out of their boxed I think, how good a chance does the scout have getting around?
I am ussually an advocate of a scout, but on epic? I dont know?

Edit:
I am counting on seeing page 5 when I wake up in the morning!

I agree with eektor. 1E is definatly out. Starting out unhealthy is ust wrong, growth in 33 turns? :eek:

Even 1S looks a little iffy. We'd reach the health limit at size 2, and would have to get our worker out to hook up the cows before growing past 3.

Maybe 1SW is the best move, dropping a 3FP (one less unhealthy) and possibly picking up one more forest for anther +1 health. That would give us a net starting health of +3; possibly more if more forsest to the west.

One other consideration... if we go 1 SW, we could fit another city in to the east...

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4212/sgotm01start7jb.jpg


That's only 2 tiles overlap... We'd settle on the desert tile, a few hills, forest, have a coastal city...


So, am I the first one who has ever made a dotmap to squeeze two cities in a starting screenshot? :lol:

Re: CS Sling: We need Mining, I don't think we can beat the AI to Oracle unless we can amp our production. Also we need to get Cottages to help our research. I don't think beelining to the slingshot is a good idea, especially if we're on a landmass with our Always Peace partner.

Re: Health. We're unhealthy at Size 3?!? :vomit:

Settling SW might be better from a health perspective ... or we can just whip the crap out of Thebes since it'll grow back so fast from all those flood plains...but I'm thinking SW may be the better option.

Re: I am counting on seeing page 5 when I wake up in the morning!
:salute:

EDIT:

Re: So, am I the first one who has ever made a dotmap to squeeze two cities in a starting screenshot?

Probably. I was looking at the same possibility as well, although I was looking at the tile N of the river, but your spot is better.

2) We lose 2 hammers in the mid/long term per turn

I don't think we'll be losing 2 hammers/turn... I'm willing to bet we'll pick up at least something from the tiles to the west... forest, or another hill...

Even 1S looks a little iffy. We'd reach the health limit at size 2, and would have to get our worker out to hook up the cows before growing past 3.Iffy why?

FP = 3 food - 1 sick = 2 food, food neutral... I dont really see a point in growing past size 3 without a cow, or to size 5 (happy limit) with the cow...

I would want to bet on more hills due East, and wont the blue spot have serious health issues soon too??

I don't think we'll be losing 2 hammers/turn... I'm willing to bet we'll pick up at least something from the tiles to the west... forest, or another hill...
Yes we will, we are getting 2 hammers of a 4 hammer tile thus losing 2 hammers per turn .... once we can work the mined hill.

Same goes for the FP tho. Settling on it loses us a food, but gains a hammer... It is allways a trade-off

Like that blue city, trading 2 health for settling on a FP river tile to improve a dessert (nothing nothing nothing tile) to a 2f/1h/1c

I know I only talked about hammers and not about the commerce and food lost, but I still think in the long run it will help. For instant that extra hammer will help us get the worker faster, how much turns will it save? Those turns save will be those same amount of turns with a pasture on the cows. Which gives 1 more food and 2 hammers ??? (I'm at work and not near my civ 4 stuff)

I don't agree that we lose +2 hammers in the long run, because as soon as we can support a mine there are 4 hills to mine (and possibly up to 3 more who knows) til the plain hills get factored in, so we might lose +2 in the late game. Either way the extra hammer at the beginning would be far more helpful than +2 hammers in the late game.

In the commerce we lose one turn at the beginning but that 10 commerce that we lost will become less and less of a factor as the game goes on. The extra hammers could help us capture a city sooner or build a library sooner which could negate the 10 commerce we lost at the beginning.

@Maquis I think that is a first. I think those two city sites look good though.

Edit: Oh wow so many replies while I was typing. As for the blue site I wouldn't put the city as our 2nd city, so hopefully we wouldn't have to worry about health in that one at the very beginning.

CS sling - I was thinking to go quickly to do that we can do AH, Writing, then if there are a few civs next to us I would say do Alphabet and try to trade for Mysticism and Meditation. I think this might be fast enough to do a CS slingshot. If not many civs next to us I don't think we can do the slingshot.

Initial research: I vote to go AH first, and then mining. Getting AH in time for the worker not only gets us the cows faster, but also shows us if horses are around. That may really change our thinking if we have horses nearby.

First builds... I agree worker first is wrong here.. warrior then worker. I just can't take a chance that Inca is on our landmass. (even though we are all assuming they are not)

I don't know that we can plan a build after the worker... it depends if we have horses or not.

I am counting on seeing page 5 when I wake up in the morning!


Or before you go to sleep :mischief:

I see what namliaM is saying; you're trading hammers now for hammers later by settling on the hill ... although it's also probably safe to say that moving 1SW will also open up more hills than 1S will, so I think the hammers trade is worthwhile.

Blue dot, though, is going to have serious health problems; only 1 forest and no fresh water. If we're going to build it, I say we save it for much later because I don't see it as more than a small fishing village (of course, if there are several fish/crab/clam tiles in its BFC...)

EDIT: I'm thinking Warrior/Worker/Warrior as the build pattern at the start. AH first I think is a must.

I say we save it for much later


Sorry if I didn't qualify that, but I was thinking the same. Blue dot does not have to be city #2, but can be filled in a bit later.

We may be wanting to expand out anyways, to try to grab land. If our assumptions are right, we'll be competing for land with our friend... Blue dot will always be there for us later.

So if I get this right, I think we all agree on these things.

- Research AH first
- Build warrior/worker/warrior

Right?

That's a start, but I think we need to plan it out further. Like, plan the entire game in advance.

Warrior should move NE-N-N-NW-NW-W-S-SW-W-SW-S-E-Fortify until healed (3 turns)-S-S-SW-W-S-SE-E-E-SE-S-S-Fortify until healed (5 turns) and I think that takes it to my turn

I assume we're going AH first since our intention is to have mining available after our worker finishes hooking up the cows. Right?

Well, if we go warrior/worker/??? then the worker will be completed when?

If its more then (or within a turn of) 30 turns... then picking up Hunting first might be a superior idea.

I think we need to be flexible. If we're on a small landmass with only our Always Peace partner (or by ourselves), a Scout would be totally useless.

Warrior should move NE-N-N-NW-NW-W-S-SW-W-SW-S-E-Fortify until healed (3 turns)-S-S-SW-W-S-SE-E-E-SE-S-S-Fortify until healed (5 turns) and I think that takes it to my turn

I agree with you but I think the 10th move should be W instead of SW :lol:

Ok the third thing to build is debatable and I guess I agree, it depends on what we find out from exploring.

As for the second tech, we could plan it more if we decide on where the city goes and I'm guessing we are split between SW and S. I think Pottery for cottages could be a good idea, but I can see how we could want mining or hunting first.

I don't think I've analyzed the beginning of a game as much as we have here. :D

Edit: Oops I misread your post bobrath. I thought you meant hunting for second tech. I think AH so we know where the horses are (as well as putting pasture on the cows), then we can decide if we need to make a rush for either bronze working for copper or hunting to protect ourselves.

@eektor: The extra hammer is not too useful for worker ... remember worker can be built as fast with food.

I am okay with SW, seems a much better choice health-wise, plus the defense bonus.

For builds order, I am okay with going warrior first, but not warrior, worker, warrior. I would advocate switching to worker once we grow, and not wait for wrrior to come out.

Not too familiar wth Epic speed, so not sure whether Hunting first is useful. Even if we con't get AH before worker is out, worker can always farm the floodplains first to further enhance growth. SO no need to be too concerned with timing AH and worker perfectly.

I would actually go worker first, just to farm the floodplains as soon as possible to encaourage growth, but again that is just me.

If we are not producing the scout, then suggest promoting that warroir with Hills or Forest promotions (what was the actual name? Woodsman and something ...) to gain the +1 movement among hills or forest (depending on which promotion we go for).

--

If we build a city on the plain hill the warrior should be done by the time the city grows. After the city grows it can begin on the worker.

@eektor: The extra hammer is not too useful for worker ... remember worker can be built as fast with food.

Yes, I am aware workers are built on food too. Just remember we are at the beginning of the game and we are only working with 2 people or if we do the worker first 1 person. One hammer or food makes a difference.

I just made the worker point to show that it will shave some turns to offset the food we lost in that first turn to move to the plain hill. Even though I think the extra hammer every turn is more than enough to compensate the food lost in the first turn.

First builds... I agree worker first is wrong here.. warrior then worker. I just can't take a chance that Inca is on our landmass. (even though we are all assuming they are not) I am betting the Inca are on our landmass...

On research... even with worker first build Hunting + AH gets done in time for the worker to pasture the Cow Hunting+ AH = 21 turns where the Worker is 23 turns to build
If we do a warrior first we have more than enough time.

I will get a shot of Thebes on the hill....

So if I get this right, I think we all agree on these things.

- Research AH first
- Build warrior/worker/warrior

Right?
N O... See above. Even on the hill I think Hunting + AH gets finished before the worker (starting with a worker). If we go Warrior => Worker build then its gets finished sooner anyway.

Off topic: Yay page 5.... :band: :woohoo:

Back to topic, Thebes on the hill. remember Ice is unknown teritory...
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8267/sgotm1sw8sp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Worker of the bat = 18 turns instead of 23
A warrior first = 11 turns (same amount of turns to grow to size 2) at size 2 worker takes 15 turns. Totaling 26 for the worker to pop.

Query: Hunting is 7 turns. Build a Barracks for 7 turns => Scout => Worker??
If we are going for a scout, lets get it as early as possible...
We could turn around the orignal warrior to protect home...
7 turns on the barracks (to discover hunting), 3 turns@size1 + 6turns@size2 = 9 turns Scout

At this point we are halfway to size 3. 6 turns from growing working the Cow and 5 turns working a FP.
A worker at size 3 = 13 turns

Not working the Cow will allow for Thebes to grow 1 turn after the scout is finished... But delays the scout by 2 turns. But if we do want to wait till size 3 it will make the worker 4 turns faster...
11 turns to size 2
9 turns to size 3 (building a scout +1 turn)
13 turns for the worker
== 33 turns to finish the worker.

Comparing to Turn 18 with the worker of the bat... That is 15 turns difference.
Comparing to Turn 26 on Warrior=> Worker... 7 turns difference...
I would have to run more simulation on the difference in commerce...

Wow. You guys are really taking this SGOTM very seriously ... :lol:

Hey, namliaM, post the world builder save you have at 4000BC so the rest of us can run our "own simulations" as well.

In fact, the rule says other on-deck players cannot open up the actual save and play a few turns ahead to see whats happens ... but nothing is stopping us from contsructing an exact replica of the current save game and testing with the replica to see the #of turns required to build XXX and research YYYY, or to check the effect on commerce from changing civics before playing the game, right?

--

Wow. You guys are really taking this SGOTM very seriously ... :lol:

Hey, namliaM, post the world builder save you have at 4000BC so the rest of us can run our "own simulations" as well.

In fact, the rule says other on-deck players cannot open up the actual save and play a few turns ahead to see whats happens ... but nothing is stopping us from contsructing an exact replica of the current save game and testing with the replica to see the #of turns required to build XXX and research YYYY, or to check the effect on commerce from changing civics before playing the game, right?

--
An "exact replica" would be a copy of the actual save. That would be a no-no :nono: I'm sure you didn't mean that, but I want to remove any possibility of doubt.

As long as you only replicate what you can see, and make guesses about what you can't, this is OK.

I like the idea of pre building the barraks and then knocking out a scout once Hunting comes in. The scout's better movement would make up for the delay in getting a protection warrior out. I'd still like to see us explore with our starting warrior. If we're unlucky enough to be next to another civ, at least lets hope we find them before they find us!

I just wanted to see if indeed every mod read our 5-page long thread... :D

Seriously, Yeah, what AlanH said is exactly what I meant, like what namliaM did. recreate the game based on what we know so far.

--

Avtually, I wanted to test if going worker first would serve us better, since we start with Argiculture. My first instinct was to go with worker first ....

I won't have a problem with exploring a bit with the starting warrior, until we get another unit trained. I just won't wander too far from the homeland :)

Obvioulsy, HC is the only one we would have to worry about, as no other Ai will attack us so early.

So... we're all in enough of an agreement on where to settle, 1SW?

Looks like there are 2 options for build/research...

1) Research Hunting - AH Put a few turns in Barracks, then Scout - worker?
2) Research AH - ?? Train Warrior - worker - ?

I'd have no problem going with #1, with hunting be a prereq for archery, which I would think we want to research soon enough anyways?

See the world builder attached...

The move SW clearly makes for better health tho I personaly dont much care because of the FP -1 = 2 food principle... i.e. we still have the 2 food ...

But SW makes much better hammer wize and the early bird catches the worm right?

I say we take a copy of the save on turn one, play it all the way to domination, then try for Diplo. Which ever is quickest we enter .... :crazyeye:

Going Hunting => AH works best I think... We want the early scout for recon ...

I think we've analyzed enough for the first set of turns.... (understatment of the year (tm)).

So I'll be looking forward to seeing how our start goes - esp since I'm last in order which means I just have to clean up all your mistakes!

Hehehe just trying to prevent mistakes here... :)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6821/sgotmworker6vv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
This would be the sittuation at turn 61 (the year 2170)
Highlights:
4000 Start hunting build worker
3430 Pop worker, 4 turns left on AH. Start Farming FP Start scout
3310 Turn prior stop farming. This turn AH in, start Pasture
3130 Scout done, Start warrior, Cow Done start farming again.
3040 Mining In, start Potts
3010 Warrior done (Defence), Start Barracks
2950 Farm done, start Mine
2740 Mine done, Make road on hill
2680 Pottery in, start BW
2650 Start Cottage
2590 Barracks done start warrior
2500 Warrior done (Settler escort) Start settler
2410 Cottage done, Start roading toward new city site
2200 BW in start Writing
2170 Settler done.

Scout got 33 turns of scouting done... 19 beakers in on writing

Ok, I think we've hit the overanalysis point :eek:

Hehehe just trying to prevent mistakes here... :)

This would be the sittuation at turn 61 (the year 2170)
Highlights:
4000 Start hunting build worker
3430 Pop worker, 4 turns left on AH. Start Farming FP Start scout
3310 Turn prior stop farming. This turn AH in, start Pasture
3130 Scout done, Start warrior, Cow Done start farming again.
3040 Mining In, start Potts
3010 Warrior done (Defence), Start Barracks
2950 Farm done, start Mine
2740 Mine done, Make road on hill
2680 Pottery in, start BW
2650 Start Cottage
2590 Barracks done start warrior
2500 Warrior done (Settler escort) Start settler
2410 Cottage done, Start roading toward new city site
2200 BW in start Writing
2170 Settler done.

Scout got 33 turns of scouting done...

Why worker first instead of scout?

Situation same year
http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/3973/sgotmscout0bk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Same research order
Build:
Barracks (waiting for hunting)
Hunting in => Scout
3400 Scout done, do 1 turn barracks to grow to 3 and start worker
3340 AH => Mining
3070 Mining => Pottery
2980 Worker => 1 turn farm => Barracks
2950 Start pasture
2770 Pasture done, Finish farm
2710 Pott => BW
2500 Barracks + Warrior done (Defence) (forget the date of the Barracks) Farm Done, start Mine
2410 Warrior done (Settler escort) Start settler
2290 Start Cottage
2200 BW in Start Writing.
2170
9 more beakers into writing, but 4 turns to go on the Settler.
Slightly more food in the bank ...
Scout gets 41 turns in on scouting

Why worker first instead of scout?
We start without Hunting so we need to research that first, this takes atleast 7 turns... This one is building a scout ASAP...
Ok, I think we've hit the overanalysis point :eek:
Yes probably, but this is a test i have wanted to do for a while. I think the later scout is very much worth it...

Why worker first instead of scout?

You can't build a scout until hunting is discovered. We could always switch from worker to scout once hunting comes in, but I think we're better off finishing the worker (if we choose to do worker instead of warrior) just in case we find we're on a small landmass via the warrior.

Compairing those two scenarios... seems like the second one (barracks >> scout) puts us in a slightly better place.

1) We get an experienced warrior out sooner for defense.
2) More scout exploration is a good thing
3) We're ahead in tech and food which means we might be able to whip a bit sooner.

Sure its a downside that the settler isn't out already, but I think the choice to build a settler this early will depend in large part upon what our exploarion finds. (and thus the early scout is even more important)

I am super-glad I'm not Maquis, I'd hate to try to do the first 30 turns with all this info flying around :crazyeye:

Well, all this over-analysis will go out the window if we find horses in our BFC :lol:

On my way out the door now, but I'll post my (maybe) final thouhts on the start soon as I get home.

Actually with this much analysis... Maquis can do whatever he wants to - we've proved just about every opening is plausible at some point in the past 5 pages.

Actually with this much analysis... Maquis can do whatever he wants to - we've proved just about every opening is plausible at some point in the past 5 pages.

Yeah, but no matter what he does, someone's bound to gripe at him ;)

...unless he moves 1E, in which case we'll all gripe at him! :gripe:

:D

Hmz, Hey Maquis, ....

What did you go and download the save for? Now we really have to get serious :aargh:

:help: My name is namliaM and I am SGOTM addicted :help:

Actually... it won't be available for upload until midnight tonight. SO we can continue being not serious for a bit more

Compairing those two scenarios... seems like the second one (barracks >> scout) puts us in a slightly better place.

1) We get an experienced warrior out sooner for defense.
2) More scout exploration is a good thing
3) We're ahead in tech and food which means we might be able to whip a bit sooner.

Sure its a downside that the settler isn't out already, but I think the choice to build a settler this early will depend in large part upon what our exploarion finds. (and thus the early scout is even more important)Sorry I dissagree...

33 turns to explore in the first set == 66 (max) moves.
Lets say average it out to 50. On each move the Scout reveales 3 tiles. thats 150 tiles.
+ we have the original warrior to scout around a bit... So by turn 60 we have about 200 tiles visible. Must be a good 2nd city spot in there somewhere?

Trying these 2 starts was educational atleast for me... Looking back now I think I would do the start pretty much the same as in my first one. Maybe finish the Barracks before building the warrior.

Actually, Do we need the barracks at this point? Or can we skip that for now? Maybe its better to build a few unpromoted warriors (power in numbers) and to start a granary when Pottery comes in.

Another thing, settling SW and size 4 we allready hitting max Health... IMHO we would want to cottage another 1 or 2 FPs and mine that grass hill. But that is work for the :whipped: second worker if it were up to me....

In both tests I did see some Barbs wondering around somewhere around 2290, but they didnt enter the culture boundry yet.

Actually... it won't be available for upload until midnight tonight. SO we can continue being not serious for a bit more
Yeah, I know... But that was my gripe... even before getting the turns started... ;)

Wow lots has happened since I saw this thread last.

I must say I am glad I'm not Maquis. By the time I play we should be pretty set in our strategy I think.

Quick question when do we get the save for the SGOTM? Or is the save you guys mentioning the one that namliaM made?

As for the build, normally I would play worker first, but we have a possibility of an always war opponent that can be next to us. It would be nice if we build warrior first so we can use the first warrior to explore. If we went worker first, what would we do with the starting warrior keep it close by to our capital?

Since it seems we can get two techs before our worker will come out, what about getting two worker techs, like AH and mining, or AH and pottery?

...unless he moves 1E, in which case we'll all gripe at him!


Maybe I'll just play Moses and wander in the wilderness for 20 turns... now wouldn't get some :mad:

Well since we've beat this to death... I probably won't have to post a turnset.. just refer to namliaM's post for dates! :lol:


I guess I'm just too pumped for this, but I'll be playing ASAP... I should have the turns done tomrrow morning! :wow:


So is this going to be to page 7 before I take my turn?? :thumbsup:

Don't forget to play VQ05 tonight ... you need to make sure your mind is clear for the SGOTM experience!

@ChrTh: Take a look at the VQ05 thread... I am confused with what you uploaded...

@ChrTh: Take a look at the VQ05 thread... I am confused with what you uploaded...

Already updated ... I was an idiot :cry:

This is weird, I'm getting some wicked deja vu here :hmm:

Back on topic: Have we nominated a scribe yet for our team? Er, I'm not volunteering...

I don't think we have yet... not sure that I would want to volunteer either...



Anyone?



Anyone? :mischief:

I thnk its hood bee sumun wit gud rightin' sk1llz

I thnk its hood bee sumun wit gud rightin' sk1llz
The I am definitely out! :D

And I nominate ChrTH, by havig the most number of post count in this thread, and a by the sense of humor he displayed with the faking of bad typing ...

EDIT: Yeah, I am promoted to Emperor!

I do like my first set, but am sure there can be improvements over what I did...

I would like to try a game where I put a civ close (say 10 tiles or so) and put us as war from the start. And see when he shows up and what happens....

And they're off!!

Ok I played the first 30... went mostly as we talked.

I think moving 1 SW was the right decision... Thebes looks pretty hot:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/6159/thebes13kn.jpg

Stone!! Also rice for some more health.


Put a few turns into Barracks, and started scout when Hunting came in. Then put a couple more turns into Barracks until Thebes grew to 3. Started worker.

AH came in, started research on Mining. There be horses about! Just north of Thebes. good spot for our second city there.

Ok, the important parts... met on AI, Cathy. She is not our Always Peace partner. (I had the option to choose war or peace)


Ok, the east is totally blocked off by mountains. Tundra and seas to the north. Cathy had to have come from the southwest.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/5016/map15ui.jpg


Turnlog, from the submission (Kinda cool, a mini-autolog!)


Turn 1, 3970 BC: Thebes has been founded.

Turn 8, 3760 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (2.40)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Combat Odds: 27.0%
Turn 14, 3580 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 14, 3580 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 16, 3520 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ's Warrior (2.40)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Combat Odds: 0.4%
Turn 16, 3520 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 17, 3490 BC: You have trained a Scout in Thebes. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 23, 3310 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 25, 3250 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!




The save is here: The Save
("gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/VQ_SG001_BC3100_01.Civ4SavedGame" )

Mountain chain that completely blocks us off, huh? :hmm: ... there be Incas?

Buddhism hasn't been founded yet, so we might have a good shot at monotheism if we beeline for it after mining ... is that what we want to do? Or do we want to start on, um, the quarry one, or maybe go with fishing->sailing? Or Pottery?

I'm thinking the worker should go to the cow first and pasture it (no need for a road), then W to the hill to mine/road, then W to the rice to farm/road.

BTW, I will be playing in about 11 hours time (20 turns, right?) ... so get your comments in now!

EDIT: Have we moved the warrior back towards Thebes? I'd like some protection for the worker, I think.

Have we moved the warrior back towards Thebes?

Yes, he's fortified in Thebes. (You can see him in my screenshot of the city, it was taken at the end of my turnset)

Worker plan sounds good, cow - mine - rice. We'll want the health soon, as we will currently be unhealthy at size 5. Happyness will be the problem, as we will be unhappy at size 6.

Also, it didn't show in my screenshot, but there is silver to the far north. I think we can grab it in the same BFC as the city with horses. Sorry, I didn't think to take a better screenshot of the north for city planning. Hopefully ChrTh can (he won't get a settler out in his turn anyways)

With the access to stone, should we think of going for Pyramids? I think it's feesable on Monarch with the stone bonus. All we'd need is masonry after mining (ChrTh: that's the one that enables quarries)


I'm not sure if we could get to Monothism, since whomever got Hinduism would only need Masonry to get to it. We need Mysticism and Polytheism both before going for mono. It's a risk IMO.

Yes, he's fortified in Thebes. (You can see him in my screenshot of the city, it was taken at the end of my turnset)


:blush: Whoops, yep, there he is.


Worker plan sounds good, cow - mine - rice. We'll want the health soon, as we will currently be unhealthy at size 5. Happyness will be the problem, as we will be unhappy at size 6.

Also, it didn't show in my screenshot, but there is silver to the far north. I think we can grab it in the same BFC as the city with horses. Sorry, I didn't think to take a better screenshot of the north for city planning. Hopefully ChrTh can (he won't get a settler out in his turn anyways)


Definitely need a dotmap, I see some good spots but we'll need to study it. You're right, though, that we probably won't have a settler after my turns.


With the access to stone, should we think of going for Pyramids? I think it's feesable on Monarch with the stone bonus. All we'd need is masonry after mining (ChrTh: that's the one that enables quarries)


I knew that :blush: ... Pyramids would be nice, problem is it'll stunt our growth unless we build a settler first.


I'm not sure if we could get to Monothism, since whomever got Hinduism would only need Masonry to get to it. We need Mysticism and Polytheism both before going for mono. It's a risk IMO.

Yeah, now that I think about it you're right. So we're thinking Masonry, then, what, Pottery? Bronze Working? Archery?

Ok, time for a horrible MSPaint hackjob...

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1062/map15ui0tc.jpg


Our only way to go is to the SW. I wonder if we are alone on this landmass with Cathy, or if she will be blocking us off from the rest of world?

After masonry, I'd think BW, then pottery. I'd rather see where copper is before we get a settler out...

re: Pyramids, we'd want to get a settler + escort out at minimum before starting this. Representation would be great to have, since we have the food to support specialists... not to mention the :) it would give us...

Since it doesn't seem the Incas are near us we don't have to be too careful.

With Cathy close by maybe we should try to get rid of her quickly? If not we should concentrate on Pottery and Writing after Masonry. Otherwise we could go for BW and then Masonry.

I think our second city should be in the area with the two cows and horse.

As for Pyramids, I wouldn't start it until we get our second city out.

Since it doesn't seem the Incas are near us we don't have to be too careful.


I think at this point we have to presume they are on the other side of the mountains. It may be a trick and they're not, but we need to keep our eyes on the east.

Well if they are east we still have time until they get boats. Then again if they are alone in that area east I can see them creating problems for us as soon as they get galleys. (I got to remember the mods are evil! ;) )

Oh btw for domination or diplomacy we should work on getting astronomy asap. Which way did we decide to go?

Oh btw for domination or diplomacy we should work on getting astronomy asap. Which way did we decide to go?

Slow down, this might be a pangaea (or even a donut) so astronomy wouldn't be very necessary at all. We need to explore further first.

As for which way to go *shrug* ... I think we need to see who else is in the game first.

Re the worker plan... if after the pasture you move 1 W and road the mine... the road won't hook to the city or a river. So perhaps road and mine the hills 1 NW from the cows. You'll still be able to road to the rice after that.

I'd agree that until we get our second city out that making a move for the Pyramids might be too limiting.

Plus the sooner we get a coastal city, the sooner we can figure out where the AW and AP AIs are.

Re the worker plan... if after the pasture you move 1 W and road the mine... the road won't hook to the city or a river. So perhaps road and mine the hills 1 NW from the cows. You'll still be able to road to the rice after that.


:wallbash: thank you for pointing that out

First of all, can we have the roster. please? Hard to figure where the roster is with 7 pages ...

Research-wise, I would go BW and Masonry, unless you guys interested in going for the TGL? Even then BW is a must, since we need some decent defense. This is Monarch afterall ...

Since Maquis say cathy must come from SW, then we should settle SW to block her off. No question abt that.

Ok, for my 20 turns I'm thinking Mining > Masonry > Bronze Working > Pottery (may not get there, but just in case)

EDIT: Or should I do BW > Masonry?

Worker moving like Bobrath said: Cow (Pasture), NW to Hill (Mine/Road), SW to Rice (Farm/Road). If I still have time left in my turns, road towards Stone (to be quarried).

For city builds, are we thinking Worker > Barracks? If Barracks finish during my turn should I do a Warrior next?

Roster (from Page 1)
Maquis
ChrTh
GreyFox
Eektor
namlaiM
bobrath

...I don't recall anyone objecting/suggesting otherwise, so I'm acting as if I'm up and GreyFox is on deck.

One more question: I'm thinking about playing at lunch (in an hour), should I wait for everybody to have a chance to input? How VQ are we looking to play the game?

I think (as with all SGs) if you know what you want to do... then do it. If you are unsure or want more input then wait a bit.

Remember we've got an international team so opinions can come at all hours of the day/night.

Research wise, I'd go BW next. It will help solidify our next city choice (if copper pops up) and gives us the slavery civic which can be a nice one.

Edit:
another warrior will be nice for fog busting/defending our next city site.

Well, I won't be playing at lunch, so there's more time to chime in.

Heh, we are off to a nice VQ start tho:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php

Already in first and years ahead of the other teams.

Congratulations :D

Yeah, right, what bobrath says. Guys, just treat this as another SG ok? don't have to be competitive or overly serious. Have fun!

Thanks for the roster!

Ack, turns played allready? And what? No Scout? Why no scout? The whole point of picking up Hunting was a scout!! :gripe: ;)

I think at this point we have to presume they are on the other side of the mountains. It may be a trick and they're not, but we need to keep our eyes on the east.
We should get a boat out asap to check on the other side of the mountians...
Research-wise, I would go BW and Masonry, unless you guys interested in going for the TGL? Even then BW is a must, since we need some decent defense. This is Monarch afterall ...

Since Maquis say cathy must come from SW, then we should settle SW to block her off. No question abt that.
Yeah research: BW=> Masonry
Our worker has pasturing and Farming to do (I would get atleast 1 farm in before mining the hill) before connecting the stone.

Do we now want to make Thebes a GP farm? Nice Hammers and Food galore if we dont work the hammers.
Worker moving like Bobrath said: Cow (Pasture), NW to Hill (Mine/Road), SW to Rice (Farm/Road). If I still have time left in my turns, road towards Stone (to be quarried). Like I said, I would get 1 farm in... extra food for the settler build

For city builds, are we thinking Worker > Barracks? If Barracks finish during my turn should I do a Warrior next?
After the barracks?? Just grow to 4 and start a settler both ASAP.
Take the warrior we allready have and head West. Just west of the Cow looks nice to me... After the settler finish the Barracks, new warrior another warrior (just to be sure) and Start the Mids... maybe we :whipped: a second settler? before the Mids? So we have some growing while building the mids?

Uh, namliaM:


Turn 17, 3490 BC: You have trained a Scout in Thebes. Work has now begun on a Barracks.


Do we want to farm the grassland or the fps?

Put a few turns into Barracks, and started scout when Hunting came in. Then put a couple more turns into Barracks until Thebes grew to 3. Started worker.

Heh beat me to it!

and what's a "mids"?

and what's a "mids"?

As in "pyra-"

What does yall think the ;) is for? :D

Took a stab at a dotty for discussion.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8143/sgotmdotty7fx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Up north 3 is taking the spot of 2 cities. Thinking about it now....
3 should be W-W of the horses.
We can then fit in another city E or E-E(on the Dessert tile) of 3
2 should/could go 1 east or west as well.

I numbered them in the way I think we should settle them.

Offcourse if there is an istmuss with a good spot for a city we should take that first (if still available). But if we go for that city far away we want a second connecting city asap.

Re-thinking my previous post... Get a settler out now, dirrectly following the worker. Then grow to 4, and build and whip another settler ASAP. Then mids?

For worker actions I would go, Farm (1 turn on the FP), Pasture, Back to the FP to finish farm, Mine & road (hill NW of Cow), Irrigate & Road Rice, Quarry stone & Road to offcourse

We got lucky with the 5 forrest... We can chop atleast 1 for the mids...

Do we want to farm the grassland or the fps?

I'd say farm a floodplain. This way we can work the mine and/or querry while building the Pyramids... extra food this early will help jump-start some production...

Agreed that #3 is much better in the spot 2W of horses.

I'd actually settle the new 3 before 2, but that's dependant upon more exploration to see what's going on down southwest. I'd settle 3 adter locking off our western border because it gives us access to our UU and the fishes to make it more whippable.

I'm not sold at all on site 4, mainly because I dislike overlapping fat crosses. The clams and coastal location are plusses for it, but I suspect we may find a better 4th site as we explore/expand.

I numbered them in the way I think we should settle them.

Do we want to settle up by the horses first? Depends on if we want access to our UU early...

I like the idea of moving #3, but how about 3 tiles west, one north. Put it on the coast, get access to fish, plaus the 2 cows and the horse. Decent production for sea vessels...

If we are planning on an early war, I would say settle horses first. If we are not, then I like the 1st site.

I disagree with the second site. I think the 3rd site should go second and the 2nd site 3rd.

About the 3rd site, how bout 2 west and one south of the horses? That way you get the two cows, horse, and a fish. Only downside is two tiles that overlap with the capital, but there are plenty of good tiles to work in that city. Basically I agree with Maquis. :D The way you said it confused me a bit, but I see that its the same place I was suggesting to settle.

Edit: I actually like the 4th site. Granted if we explore and find better places we should settle there before the 4th site.

Do we want to settle up by the horses first? Depends on if we want access to our UU early...

I like the idea of moving #3, but how about 3 tiles west, one north. Put it on the coast, get access to fish, plaus the 2 cows and the horse. Decent production for sea vessels...
Thats what I said below the screeny...

I think if there is an istmuss, and it looks that way... Then we will want to seal it... ASAP which means another city even before 1. Or should we settle 1 anyway even if there is an istmuss?

We want our UU I think, take out Cathy or atleast take her down a bit. In the short on longer run even for Diplo, we want her out! We will have at least the - for 'close borders'

From where we can see now, to the south (across from the scout) I can see Jungle. That means if Cathy is indeed due south (-east) she may be inside a jungle, having problems of her own to contend with ...

Ok, if you put it two west of the horses you lose one cow. One south will get you an extra cow. That's why I thought Maquis was thinking where I suggested since he said we would get fish, 2 cows, and a horse.

The only reason I suggested one north was to elimiate any overlap with Thebes. We'd still get the same resources if we went south instead of north.

Is picking up the cow worth having two tiles overlap with the capital? I sometimes find myself concentrating too much on the iconic resources and not the lay of the land. In addition to the tile over lap, we'd be trading off ocean for forests. That's not a bad trade until you realize that the forests are also needed by the capital and chopping becomes a potential problem. Part of this depends on what the max size of the capital is going to be. Will it be able to reach 20? If not, then having overlapping tiles isn't as big of a deal.

Re: the Isthmus. If we found a city there.. then site 1 becomes less urgent unless you treat it as a road extension. Site 1 has 3 mountains in it (dead tiles), so its got that in the way for long term growth.

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/6159/thebes13kn.jpg

Looking just at that, we've got +8 extra food (unimproved) and -8 food loss. So from a pure "can we feed the people" point of view, the capital can easily sustain 20+ people. We could actually accept a tile or two overlap - depends on which tiles tho. Yes the capital will have health and happy problems, but it has the making of being a monster.

I know founding our first site on the isthmus will hurt for maintenance, but if it cuts off aggresive AI settling, then its obviously worth it. The prospective site 2W of the horses seems to do a very nice job of being the "real" second city site. It provides access to a key resource and is at the optimal distance (no overlap or lost space). Just missing on the second cows isn't a huge deal - our culture will take it easily if we want to trade/gift them.

So, um, should I build a settler next? :confused:

When I suggested going one south of what you guys said before, it wasn't that that city will be taking the grassland and the fresh water lake from the capital. The capital should be using those tiles. I'm just willing to accept the maximum worker on the other city to be 18.

If we go one south, we would get more hammers. Other spot we will knock down a forest to put the city. we would have 4 water, 1 hill, and a grassland that the other city would be put on. Going south, we get that forest tile, 1 hill, 1 water, and 1 cow on the plain.

I think I'm a little off, but what I see is we are