GOTM 55 - Pre-Game Discussion
Or: Pink? Who the hell chose pink?

Think its about time for another deity game?

Good. I do too. :goodjob:


Civilization: France (Unique Unit = Musketeer 3,4,1).
Rivals: 5 pre-selected.
Barbarians: none.
Difficulty: Deity
Land Form: Archipelago, 60% ocean, small map.
Geology: 5 billion years old, wet, temperate

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm55large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm55mini.jpg

Conquest-Class Bonuses:
Start with a bonus worker & settler.


Predator-Class Equalisers:
AIs each start with an extra settler & worker.

Wow, another deity game so soon, that's great! I missed the last one (the last two actually) so I'm glad to get another chance! :)

Hmm, small archipelago map, 60% ocean. It would be nice if each AI is on an island of their own, unreachable to each other via coastal tiles, and that we can meet them all by suicide runs and play the tech broker. Don't think that will happen though.

Settling in place is a no-brainer for me, even if moving E would put us on the coast. I'm going for the cow, so I want it in range from the start. :D

Settling in place is not a no-brainer.
Southwest will give more space for coastal cities and adds some river tiles.
I will probably do it, if the worker move shows another BG.

:blush: You are right of course, moving SW could well be the better start. Worker to cow, then probably settler SW.

2 extra settlers + 3 extra workers for the AS at the start. It's a quasi-Sid game in terms of initial expansion. Sounds quite interesting and challenging. Since we're likely to be isolated i'll probably try another science run, but a military takeover is not to be excluded yet :evil:

If by some stroke of luck, Rome conquers the world by the 15th (COTM 24), I'll give this one a try. The only reasons for moving would be better defense on the E hill but you'd lose the cow and SW to make room for another city NE. Neither is a good enough reason on Diety to give up a turn.

I would settle in place and research Writing ASAP, with build order being a pair of warriors then a settler and a pair of workers to improve the local land ASAP. That predator AI bonus is scary.

The game set-up has similarities with Bamspeedy's beyond Sid game.

The no-brainer here appears to be Worker to Cattle, irrigate and then road:

if the worker move shows another BG.

With only one BG, the four-turn factory operates at sizes 5-7. With two we can do 4-6. Let's see whats hidden in the south-west.

The no-brainer here appears to be Worker to Cattle, irrigate and then road.
Since we're industrious, roading and irrigating both take 2 turns. I would thus road first since we have no use of the +4 food until 5 turns after settling (or right away if we decide to move twice). Sure it's only 2 commerce total, but still. :)

Since we're industrious, roading and irrigating both take 2 turns. I would thus road first since we have no use of the +4 food until 5 turns after settling (or right away if we decide to move twice). Sure it's only 2 commerce total, but still.

You're right, of course. I forgot about the industrious trait. But if we move at least once, then irrigating the Wine before roading it makes sense. We could hit size 3 before cultural expansion at 5 fpt surplus.

Since we have at least one extra Wine, perhaps a Settler before Granary could make sense if we decide to irrigate both Cattle and Wine before getting into the mining business. But then 4 fpt surplus is also fine before Granary...

It seems too good...:drool:

Obviously cow comes first, but wouldnt mining the cow be better since the wine can give 3 food, even with the Despot tile penalty?

With only one BG, the four-turn factory operates at sizes 5-7. With two we can do 4-6. Let's see whats hidden in the south-west.

Finally, I understand why I was having trouble setting up a settler factory in a previous game; I was not using two mined BG's. Thank you Più Freddo.:goodjob:

It seems too good...:drool:

Obviously cow comes first, but wouldnt mining the cow be better since the wine can give 3 food, even with the Despot tile penalty?

True, if we irrigate the Cow, we will end up with +6 food. But this is the better way because:

1) You get more food faster, which means the capital grows faster in the beginning. (OK, we will loose some early production, but there must be _very_ circumstances to prefer early prodution to early growth.)

2) Later, if you want to, you can get back to +5 food just by using a mined hill. since irrigated Cow + mined hill gives exactly the same amount of food and production compared to mined Cow + mined Grassland. In fact, irrigating the Cow is still better since one Grassland tile becomes available to other cities. (Also, when you get out of despotism, a mined hill is better still, but then several things change.)

3) Or you can share one of the +food tiles with another city, if possible. This is even better than alternative 2, since then other cities also get +food tiles. This can be done at least two ways:

a) If another city can use one of the +3 food tiles (irrigated Wine), then the capital gets +5 food in total, and the other city +1 food.

b) If another city can use the irrigated Cow (+4 food), then during the two turns it takes the capital to grow 1 size (assuming Granary), it can use the irrigated Cow once (for +6 food) and then it doesn't need that tile the next turn (still gets +4 food). Thus half the time another city can use the irrigated Cow. Of course, this solution requires some micromanagement.

At least, this is why I will irrigate the Cow.

John

Looks like fun. I enjoy a challenging deity level game. The GOTMs have been great lately. Kudos to the map makers for fun games.

France should be a good one. Industrious is my favorite trait. I like Worker to cow and then Settler quite possibly SW. Moving SW picks up a hill and loses some coast. By moving SW one tile you allow room for a second city to still be on the river three tiles up, on the hill or on GL probably on the coast, as well.

I like the chance to get surplus food from the wine tiles in Despotism, but I am still going to be tempted to mine one of them.

Getting bonus food early on is a key strategy, but plus six food is kind of a waste. Unless the city configuration allows for another city to be built three tiles away in order to make good use of the extra food tile, I may want to mine one wine of the wine tiles from the git go. Irrigated cow plus irrigated wine gets you +5 in cap. It would be excellent to be able to get surplus food in that second city at the head of the river, as well. I think in this case irrigating both wines will be the thing to do, actually.

Early GA is not a consideration for France. In that case I like to get mines onto as many GL tiles as possible so that each of those tiles gets the bonus shield from the GA. Those wines are on GL so they won't have a chance to get a shield bonus in GA unless they are mined first. France is what, Commercial also? So what ancient Wonders will give France a GA?

SR

Last time i played a France Deity game, i got attacked by every AI in 5 turns. Bad memories...

Southwest will give more space for coastal cities and adds some river tiles.


It also moves the whole set-up more toward the center of the game which may be good (or bad) if this is a larger (or crowded) island.

I'm wondering if a granary would be useful. Researching pottery slows down the move toward MM a bit, plus, there may not be enough room to warrant a faster settler factory. ANyone know how many settlers you need before a granary pans out?

Researching pottery slows down the move toward MM a bit

Actually, Pottery is a prerequisite for Map Making.

Anyone know how many settlers you need before a granary pans out?

The Granary costs the shields of two Settlers. But it's on the food side the equation gets more interesting and more complicated. The Granary pays back one food for each food produced in the city. On the other hand, another city (from a Settler) also produces food, and this production is delayed by the construction of the Granary. The delay in turns depends on the shield production in the city. The cost of the delay depends on the available city locations.

If you hit a population max and have to waste food before you can get Settlers out after the Granary you're probably better off building the Granary a little later. Forests to chop speak for Granary. A single high-food location speaks for Settler first. Don't forget that the population growth during Granary construction contributes to commerce accumulation if the tiles worked produce any commerce. So Worker actions also come in to the picture.

As a rule of thumb, a four-turn factory in the capital is almost always worth while.

Think its about time for another deity game?

Good. I do too. :goodjob:
[/list]


Sounds great, although Deity level makes me very, very afraid. :eek:

Due to my newbieness, I'm going to go with Conquest on this. So, my plan goes like this:

Move a settler SW. I assume he will be building there next turn, since I can't imagine he'll find anything that will deter me from the cow and two wines bonanza.

Worker 1 goes to the cow and worker 2 goes to the wine to the south. Both irrigate.

The other settler moves E, onto the hill. If that water I see next to the hill is seacoast, I'll move E or NE from there to found a coastal city. I'll also move Worker 2 over the the second city as soon as both wines are irrigated.

Both cities will start by producing a couple of warriors. Hopefully at least one of them is coastal, in which case I'll get a curragh out to explore. After the warriors I'll get a settler out. On the science front, I'm going for the republic slingshot--La Belle France should be a Republic, no?--followed by the pottery to map making line.

As for an overall strategy, I'm not sure. I'll decide on that between now and the release of the saves. Domination is relatively easy on the tiny and small maps, but will I be a good enough general to deal with Deity AIs? A 20K culture or science might be do-able, but I'm betting I'm not experienced enough to schmooze my way to a diplomatic victory at this level yet.

OK, if anybody sees any rookie mistakes here, please feel free to tell me! There's no chance of bruising my ego.


ON EDIT: Of course, how I approach the tech (including the rep slingshot) will depend on how big this island is . If it's tiny I'm going all out for map making, but I will completely dominate this island in any case before sending settlers elsewhere. The place needs to be a fortress.

Rep slingshot wont work since this isnt conquests.

A good food bonus will be important in this game. I will settle WEST and start the Pyramids immediately.

A good food bonus will be important in this game. I will settle WEST and start the Pyramids immediately.

Won't that squelch the cow?

Won't that squelch the cow?
Yes, but we can have some nice steak then.

Actually, Pottery is a prerequisite for Map Making.

I was thinking in terms of trading for pottery as an alternative, but that's iffy with archipelagos.

Nice summary on the other stuff you wrote. For me the big issue on deity level is not getting overrun by AI settlements. So one reason to go straight into settlers is to get my inner circle completed before the devils start lurking around my armpits. Since this starting location looks cramped against the ocean, a 3-ring may be what I want and I may want to delay the granary until after putting down about 5 settlements. What my real goal with that is to create warrior factories. Once the inner circle has several towns with barracks and at least a couple producing warriors every two turns, then I feel safe to build the granary.

One other good argument for an early granary is that you can also spit out a worker or two and let all your other towns grow as fast as possible.

What I'd really like to know, though, is what is the difference at, say, 1000 bc between making one settler then the granary and making about 4-5 settlers and then the granary. On a big map, I would go straight for the granary, but on a small map at the deity level, i wonder what SirPleb and those types would do.

Rep slingshot wont work since this isnt conquests.

{Slaps forehead} Duh!:blush:

in GOTM54 I got squished. Deity makes me tremble, but I will go for it. Some really nice pointers by all of you thank you very much. Would be going conquest class and thus two settlers.

The only thing I would like to do is cut a small slice for myself (as we are on the tip of the map) and hold it long enough before the bigger badder guys throw me out. :-)

Enough of being funny. I think my best bet would be a diplomatic victory with lots of molly coddling.

in GOTM54 I got squished. Deity makes me tremble, but I will go for it.

Dont worry, i got murdered in GOTM54 (muskets cant kill panzer...) and im still playing the deity game with no fear! :D Maybe im stupid, but it hasnt stopped me berefo.

Yes, but we can have some nice steak then.

Good thinking that mouse. Founding the first town on the moo will free up room to put the second town on one of the wines :p
Rare beef and a claret, mmmm.

As to building a granary:

Assume you have 5 excess food, and can thus pop out a settler every 8 turns with stable population, and assume you have the shields to do so.

If it takes 16 turns to build the granary (it will take less, but this is a simplifying assumption), that's 2 settlers before you get any, but you are then popping out settlers twice as fast - so you have 2 when before you would have 3, are tied at 4 and ahead after that.

It takes less than 16 turns to build the granary, of course - chopping trees help, and you will produce more shields at a higher level, but then, there is an advantage to having your second city out 12-16 turns earlier, so those things probably even out.

But that's not all - even when you run out of room to settler, the factory can *still* pump out worker after worker, for improvements or population growth in cities that you have set to, say, build military, and so have working 2 forests and aren't growing on their own.

I would be very suprised if the map is set up so you can't get more than 4 other cities - you might have to jam them in, but my guess is that you will be able to get 7-9 in if you are there with another civ. You might want to pop out one additional settler before building a granary, so someone can build some military to defend against barbs, for MP and for exploration.

What is an interesting question is: Can you build a 6 turner without a granary by irrigating cow and both wines? can you get enough shields to do that? I would think so, from size 5-7 - that makes for an interesting alternative.

oh - no barbarians. hmm. I'd almost bet that we are alone on this island. If it were us vs. 1 deity AI, we would get crushed without barbarians to distract them. And I dunno that we will have 2 AI on the same island as us on an arch map.

Granary has nothing to do with how much food you have. It depends on how much bonus grassland you have.

2 BG = granary first
1 BG = settler, then granary
0 BG = no granary

In this start, the cow counts as a BG if you mine it.

In this start, the cow counts as a BG if you mine it.but there's no BG under that cow.... :mischief:

@tR1cKy & PaperBeetle: What's this? Do I hear the beginnings of a Predator Red-Ambulance Contest? :lol:

As noted I'm going for the Cow. Since I've never before won on deity, I'll be playing open, and won't feel bad about it one bit. :p

Hehe... it wouldn't be a bad idea to try a weirdo game like that :crazyeye: But i'll wait for lesser level games. A deity one like that deserves to be played seriously.

Maybe I'll come back to PTW just for this one.
I'm inclined to go settler first. On Deity, we only have so many happy citizens, so keeping a large population is tough at first. Build the settler, hopefully claim another lux, then think about granaries.
Also, even though moving sw can be costly on Deity, if that really is coast up there to the E and NE then moving will in effect 'reserve' that land for us, and we could concentrate on settling W first to 'beat' the AI. Simply put, moving probably gains us land in this situation. Talk about your long term benefits...

Seriously - i have downloaded the file but i still have to fire it up and start the mess, so here's what i intend to do.

Despite the level, i wouldn't be shy of spending one or two turns to find a central placement for the capital. A better RCP will more than offset the initial turn waste. Given a probable coast E (it could be a lake, but with an archi map it's more likely to be coast), settling one or two tiles SW may be worth it. Anyway, working the cow seems mandatory so i'll move the peon on it, see what terrain is revealed and decide what to do.

Are we isolated? I think it doesn't matter. With Alphabet as a prerequisite, a min run on writing with the money saved to buy some techs later seems the best option anyway. What follows depends on the map. Pottery -> Maps at max if we're isolated, Literature (with Pottery likely to be traded) if someone else shows up.

If we're isolated BUT the island is big enough trying to build the Pyramids may be worth it. If someone beat us to it, we're likely to cascade on Great Library of Great Lighthouse.

I have Civ III Complete, is it still possible for me to play this scenario?If so how?

never mind my last question, I figured it out:goodjob:

IDELETED. Do not post here after you have started playing.

Deity? Aargh! I'm scared even to start this one. In the last GOTM I tried I got my heinie kicked--by France, ironically enough. :aargh: (Actually I did start the recent Celts regent game [#53 if I recall rightly?] but never finished it.) :( I'd probably get pwned here. :wallbash:

Deity? Aargh! I'm scared even to start this one. In the last GOTM I tried I got my heinie kicked--by France, ironically enough. :aargh: (Actually I did start the recent Celts regent game [#53 if I recall rightly?] but never finished it.) :( I'd probably get pwned here. :wallbash:

I always get pwned on anything higher than Monarch. At least this will be a quick game :lol::crazyeye:

@Desertsnow and azzaman333 -- Try the Conquest class. Often the bonuses are enough to help or at least make it close.

@Desertsnow and azzaman333 -- Try the Conquest class. Often the bonuses are enough to help or at least make it close.

Ill stay with open class. Makes me feel better when i get driven into the ground. :p

i never played much diety on civ ii, and am getting kicked at warlord at civ iii, so gotm 55 should be a short run for me. :)

wondering though why you would irrigate rather than mine at diety, since pops over 2 start to revolt.

wondering though why you would irrigate rather than mine at diety, since pops over 2 start to revolt.

Put two Warriors as Military Police there, then you can go to a population of four. Connect luxury resources, they add one more each. As a last resort simply raise the entertainment slider.

i never played much diety on civ ii, and am getting kicked at warlord at civ iii, so gotm 55 should be a short run for me. :)

wondering though why you would irrigate rather than mine at diety, since pops over 2 start to revolt.

At deity, your second citizen is already revolting, I believe. But yeah, what Piu said; slide that slider! Just in terms of commerce, it should still be profitable to increase your population... it basically takes one unit of commerce to keep a citizen content, and every tile you work should get you one or more commerce.
Good luck. This will be my first proper deity game too. :)

@Paperbeetle

I am sure that the player ranked 5 on the GPR is going to be able to cope with a deity level game with high food start and an industrious civ!

Especially when they are experienced on the SID level. :)

Well I didn't say was going to lose ;)