Parameters:
Patch: 1.22 C3C
Level: Monarcy
Variant: Always War
Civilization: Random (Hittite)
Water: 70%
Map Type: Pangea
Size: 250 by 250
Age: Random
Temperature: Random
Climate: Random
Barbarians: Sedentary
Rivals: All 30
AI Aggression: Normal
Victory Condition: Standard
Culturally linked starts: OFF
Respawn: Off
Preserve Random Seed: On
Cultural Conversion: On

All previous AWM games have been fairly easy. I am really curious how this one will pan out and how difficulut it will be. It may get fairly crazy.

[Edit: Clarified this section]
There will be NO trading - declare war instantly and always stay at war. Other than that there are no other restrictions. One can look at AI tech's, etc.

5 or 10 turns per round - 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete for the early turs, total 96 to complete when the game slows down.

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh
Open if anyone else wants to play.

Edit: First start was too dry. Here is the second start in the year 3000.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_BC3000.jpg

I'll have to skip this one, just don't have time to play with 2 sgotms that have just started especially on such a big map. That start looks tough. Good luck.

Are you sure you dont want to try rolling another start? That one looks horrible.:p :vomit:

In any cases, good luck everyone!:cool:

checking in, I would move the worker one tile west to see whether there is a river somewhere. Else, this start is horrid...

If you take little boys in your roster, I'd be up for playing with you big ones. I'd take a wild guess with the worker and send him north, so that on turn 2 we have a mountain to look down from if need be. Or if no other start is rolled.

send him north, so that on turn 2 we have a mountain to look down from if need be.

That sounds right to me. But frankly I think that pangaea AW versus every possible enemy is challenging enough [!] that we're entitled to a decent start.

No river, that will slow down expanson. I was wonder how much expansion can be done, without spreading too thin? On a land mass of this size, you probably will still have a large area to use, before contacts.

Looks interesting. I'll watch. :)

I could play it out to see if there is a river. if there is none, start a new one. Agree it could get grim if we can only have size 2 cities.

Welcome Beorn, I will add you to the list. I would like to get at least one more player if we can.

I was a small part of the first AWM 30, so if it is ok for you sign me up.

Greebley, play out 10-20 turns and restart if it's too horrible. We need a decent food bonus to be able to compete here

I was a small part of the first AWM 30, so if it is ok for you sign me up.

Glad to have you. I will add you to the list

I will try out the start and see what it is like.

Lurk mode on

That start was completely dry. I agree playing vs 30 civs when you can't get your cities over size 2 or 3 is not going to go far.

I started another one. An unusual civ not normally played in AW. The start looked good enough to try though it was not extravagent.

We met America and declared immediate war. We have survived 3 Warriors attacking us and our two Warriors are Vets now. Two more are on the way and we are building Barracks. Note that it takes a long time to get a tech - I am at max science to try to get it in less than 50 but I am unsure if it will actually work.

We moved 2 off the BG that has a mine to get the fish.

Here is a picture. America is to the south. It might be nice to hit them quick before we meet anyone else if things work out right.

Note that one thing learned from the last game is that it may take some time to meet everyone. This gives us the chance we need (that and the fact it isn't AWE).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_BC3000.jpg

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played
ThERat - Up
Northern Pike - On Deck
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh

Think I'll watch this one from the sidelines. Good luck gentlemen.

edit: played 15 turns

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_BC2350.SAV)

played 15 turns since hardly anything happened

by using the fish, dropped research
defeated 3 warriors on defense, finished the rax and 3rd warrior that was sent out to check things out
started a settler that is done next turn
we can settle in the north near the 2 fish or head south. WC is done in 4, then maybe BW
we should try and delay our UU since we do not want an early GA
There is much forest and jungle and we need more workers for sure

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr122350.jpg

It may take a bit of doing to get to a horse. I'm not sure the two-fish town will be much use early on. It may be best to head south.

I would suggest to settle west of the deer. We can walk past that warrior, it will not bother us. Only when they are in pairs, will they attack.
The capital can then produce warriors/archers. I would suggest to start chopping a granary as well. With the slow growth we have, it will help a lot.

Alternatively, we could swap the settler to a granary and then a settler.

I've got it. I haven't looked at the save yet, but I lean towards switching to a granary before the settler completes.

Now that we have a dream start :lol:

With all the chops available, a granary first and a deer town second look promising indeed. I assume our scout has been eatn by the americans ?

And what about techs: spears, walls then catapults? That'd be my pick.

That start and 30 enemies, if you want me, I'm game. :eek:

If you want me to play, you can slot me in during weekends, it would be very appreciated.

Greebley if you need someone down the road, I would play. Is this using 600 or something like that for cost factor? I used 650 once and it really kills techs on a 250 map with max civs on contients.

The key for research here are the monarchy science farms.

That said there 2 wonders that would really help

1. GL for obvious reasons
2. Sun Tzu for raxes in all cities since this is a pangaea.

1750 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-1750BC.SAV)

Following Rat's lead, I've played fifteen turns, since very little was happening.


2350 (0): Hattusas switches to a granary build. And I cancel the just-begun attempt to build a road on the jungle fruit, because we can't really work that tile anyway. Disease would be disastrous.


2230 (3): Excellent news--that one patch of fog near our capital turns out to have been concealing game.

Warrior Code --> Bronze Working. With the tech runs taking so long this is a serious choice, but since there's almost no chance that we have horses with this terrain, it's easy to rule out The Wheel.


2190 (4): Hattusas granary --> archer, with the help of a forest chop, which doesn't reveal BG.


2110 (6): Scouting reveals a third game tile, though it'll be some time before we can use it.

An American warrior dies attacking Hattusas (1-0)--only after they'd increased their stack to two, as Rat predicted.


2030 (8): Another American warrior falls at Hattusas (2-0).

Hattusas archer --> settler.


1830 (13): Hattusas settler --> archer.


1750 (15): Our settler moves into position to found a city three tiles from the capital, between two game tiles. Note that whatever we build first in the new city will be speeded up by the forest chop just to the north. I'd start with a barracks there.

Once we found the new city unit costs won't hurt us as much, and our run to BW will go faster.

That warrior just south of Hattusas is still an American. ;)

Slow development:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-1750BC.JPG

Ok, Gozpel, you can play. We can see what we can do about getting you for Weekends if that is when you can best play.

Vmxa, you can join us if anyone needs to drop or extended time off.

Looks like we are doing reasonably well. The start will be a bit of a challenge, but unless we meet a lot of civs very quickly in the near future I think we will do ok. We have lots of forests to chop so it should be interesting.

To answer an earlier question: ya, our scout got stepped on fairly early on.

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Northern Pike - Just Played
Beorn-eL-Feared - Up
markh - On Deck
Gozpel

my dot map for the next few cities

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr121750.jpg

red is given as the settler is there already, purple is CxxC from red and gievs us the lux. Yellow is both CxxC from purple and red and gives us another game

Goz, if you want it, take it: I would only play it sunday night at best.

Go ahead an play Beorn.

Pre-Turn:
Picture perfect :thumbsup:

T1.
Found Hunt season is on (I guess we could just call it Hunt)
Notice you went barracks first in Hattusas, so I'll stick with the family.
Back to +1gpt, while it lasts.

T3.
Hattusas archer - settler
Archer goes 1/4 defeating the annoying hairy that kindof threatened the worker
Settler will time 1# turn short of the next growth to 6

T4.
Done chopping, start roading (not a BG, so no point in getting a 2-1-0 tile with 2 2-2-0 around)

IT
Spot an archer(reg)/warrior(cons) pair from our southern cousins

T5.
Archer healing
Warrior sent from Hattusas to intercept

T6.
Lose 3 HP grand total rebuffing the americans :]

IT
2 more reg archers show up

T7.
Rotate the guard, get 2 archers ready in Hunt. Worker can't go chop the W deer for a Dyes road, so he goes east.

T8.
First archer promotes 3/5, second wins 2/4
Hattusas Settler - archer

T10.
Second settler underway with the elite archer on an intercept course.

So far nothing spectacular, a bit of good RNG fortune gives us [5-0] and Dyes locked in soon.

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4817/gr18rb.th.jpg (http://img359.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr18rb.jpg)

I haven't pushed our budget, knowing unit costs will catch us up soon anyways.
Hunt will work a deer on growth, so the barracks is in fact due in th next ibt. It is now working the roaded grass for 1 gold.
I'd be for a worker after the archer in Hattusas, we need to chop stuff and make a road network for ourselves.

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

That sounds good. :goodjob: I agree that it's time to build a worker.

great work Beorn :goodjob:
Those fools are wasting all their shields to lose units :D
Maybe we can recon the area in the south where the enemy is coming from. But let's first build another 2 cities as suggested, then we need to expand south and know what's going on there. I rather we avoid the jungle in the east for now.

Agree. I would like to hurt America before we meet other civs. Settling 2 more towns first sounds right though.

I'm looking at this mini-map, and I wonder if by some quirk this didn't end up being an island on a pangea map.

Finding that out requires a curragh and risks contacts ... right now a 1v1 deathmatch with the americans on monarch makes for a too promising start to risk it imho. And 4 towns sound like a good starter, you never know when an old man with a big flag will want to show up.

0) 1500BC : looks good

IBT : Hunt Season : rax -> archer

1) 1475BC : move settler in position to settle pink dot

IBT : Hunt Season : archer -> archer
Hattusas : archer -> worker

2) 1450BC : found Ugarit, American borders are SE of Ugarit
There is a Spanish warrior near Ugarit, declare war, sorry Isabella

IBT : nothing

3) 1425BC : not much to do

IBT : Hattusas : worker -> settler

4) 1400BC : zzz

IBT : Hunt Season : archer -> archer

5) 1375BC : zzz

IBT : nothing

6) 1350BC : moving units

IBT : nothing

7) 1325BC : gather some archers in Ugarit. they will be our exploring team

IBT : a single American warrior appears from the South

8) 1300BC : move archers

IBT : BW is in -> masonry
Hattusas : settler -> archer

9) 1275BC : whack the American warrior (1-0)

IBT : nothing

10) 1250BC : just moving units

Still quiet. Maybe the three archers can take down the American city in the South if it is still defended by warriors. The settler fromHattusas is on the way to yellow dot.

Roster:
Greebley - on deck
ThERat
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh - just played
Gozpel - UP

I think gozpel wanted to play on weekends, so i guess we do not wait so long and simple continue with the roster with Greebley.

We met another Civ, so much about the notion that we are alone with England...I guess the borders we can see are from the capital. I think 5 archers should be enough to take it down to keep.

Spain is a sub-par threat though, it's not like we met the Zulus or Aztecs. Good work holding the fort, it is still quiet, but it's good that way.

The next thing out of Hunt could be a spear, imo: we have none, and the team of Washington-party-crashers could use the 2 defense cover. I think it's a safe bet to think it's their capital; we can verify that by moving 1 tile east and seeing wether or not it has a 3rd ring culture. With the amount of dead archers and warriors we've seen lately, 5 archers would be my guess as well.

The next thing out of Hunt could be a spear, imo: we have none, and the team of Washington-party-crashers could use the 2 defense cover. I think it's a safe bet to think it's their capital; we can verify that by moving 1 tile east and seeing wether or not it has a 3rd ring culture. With the amount of dead archers and warriors we've seen lately, 5 archers would be my guess as well.

99.99% sure it is their capital. This is monarch, people.:p :king:

Technically speaking, 99.99% is still a bet, albeit a safe one :p

Ok, I got it. We will slot gozpel in on the Weekend.

We shouldn't build roads through forests, as we're doing at the moment. With this start, we desperately want to clear land. So we should always first chop a forest (four worker-turns) and then build its road (three worker-turns), rather than building a forest road which takes six worker-turns by itself. And unless there's an extreme need for haste, we should do this with just one worker per forest tile, which will minimize worker-turns lost to movement into roadless territory.

My intention building roads was to connect the dyes asap and have quick access to the front. Maybe I am too luxury addicted. :). Hattusas and Hunt season at current size are at 5 shields -> 4 turn archers or spears. That seemed ok for me for the moment. I normally do not like to waste the chops on archers or spears. Only if really necessary. I considered to build a granary in Hunt season sped up by chops, but somehow I thought building more units to take out America soonest possible is better.

I think archers and spears are not ideal to receive chops, as you said, but given the situation, they're a good compromise. Getting 1 or 2 AI's out of our way is going to be beneficial - and will save us a load of worker turns.

I think what NP was saying is that the worker turns are more important than the shields and they won't go to waste. It's not like you don't have enough trees to go around.

Early:
Founded Haran.
Killed the Spanish Warrior.

Mid: Pillaged Washington. American Archer attacked our Archer but lost. Killed another archer as well.

Late: Washington pillaged.
Had a Spear built to acompany the archers so the next Archer attack will be vs spear.

We have 5 archers and a spear. I suggest moving 2 squares to line up an attack that isn't across the river.

Not sure the Granary is best for Hunt Season On. Also an archer may be better for Ugarit than another Spear. There is a Spear in the capitol that can be switched as needed.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_BC1000.jpg

I personally wouldn't have pillaged the city but simply taken the city...got it

Greebley, I notice Harran isn't on Rat's yellow dot, and won't claim its game tile until we build another city. Some tactical issue, or just a slip of the mouse? ;)

NP, is right, thus a new dotmap for thoughts, this assumes we get Washington

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr121000b.JPG

That looks fine. :goodjob:

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-750BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
change capital to settler, we have more spots to fill, I prefer that

1. 975BC
move our units next to Washington

2. 950BC
lose 2 archers, but Washington is ours

3. 925BC
Portugese pop up and we say 'good morning, let's fight'

4. 900BC
we have another worker...Portugese warrior fortifies

5. 875BC
send 3 archers to NewYork, MM Hunt so that it will grow before the granary finishes

6. 850BC
lose our elite archer, but take out New York, Americans still alive, move the other archer south, spot a settler pair and
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr11850a.jpg
we gain 2 slaves in the process
but meet Arabia and declare as well

7. 825BC
one of the chops finally reveals a BG

8. 800BC
found Hattusha

9. 775BC
get a few more units out, we are still below the limit

10. 750BC
with more units, take out that pesky Portugese warrior and send a spear to explore the west a little

masonry is due in 2, what are we going to research next? either wheel or IW
we need to know the location of both for the expansion
once Hunt finishes the granary, would go for settler there. Washington will be a good growth with the cow. We should make use of that

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr11750a.jpg

Sorry on the misplaced city. It was intended to be in the right spot.

It appeared Washington was making archers quickly and thus the pillage. Thinking on it though they must not have been given their size. Probaby an error on my part.

I just wasn't playing at top form last night.

actually in hindsight, the 'misplaced' city fits very well into our CxxC scheme, so no worried, Greebley

Good work, Rat. :goodjob:

We're fairly close to the Australian weekend, and I can't play immediately, so I'll leave this for Gozpel and play after him.

We're likelier to have horses than iron in the terrain we can see now, so I'd choose TW over IW. One complication, though--is this a situation in which we wouldn't be allowed to build horsemen, because the preceding (unique) unit is superior? If so, IW might be better, since we don't want our GA yet.

Would Washington be a good FP location, or is it too close, on a huge map?

It certainly is a good question, NP, although since 3MC's cannot cross mountains and such, I would guess that, with HBR, you are allowed both. If there wasn't the logistic issue, my guess would be that you can't build horses, UU prevailing. For instance, unless you disconnect iron, the Dutch cannot build muskets, just Swisses, despite the attack point. They can build rifles, though.

About the FP and corruption, I don't think we need to even think about it just yet. When we have a few MGL's to spare, we can go for it. Huge maps grant us very very acceptable corruption for a good while. On a smaller map I would think about jumping to Washington, but I don't think it's worth talking about this here and now.

All for Hunt and Washigton on food-unit duties.

I think we need a good production city for the FP. That city could then be our wonder city. Such a city should have some hills as well and food resource. Washington isn't that place.
Why I mention wonder city. There are a few wonders that are essential for us and the more we bag the better. But SunTzu is an absolute game breaker IMHO. Imagine free raxes for all cities we own? And here we talk about hundreds of cities :cool:

GL might be good too if we fall behind in tech. So, for all that we do need a good shield city.

Actually I think we should go for iron next (or even maths, cats help get us MGL's) to avoid the GA. If we can get the GA around the end of the AA, we could gain a lot.

Gozpel, please tell us if you can play this weekend. If you think you can then you got it otherwise the game will continue with NP.

If we don't here from Gozpel in 24 hours, we will assume this weekend is a skip for him and continue on to NP.

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Northern Pike - On Deck
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh
Gozpel - Up

It's been a busy week and I forgot about this game.

After the granary in Hunt -> settler.

I've got it.

Pre-turn - Drop science to 50%, Masonry still in 2t.

730BC - Chop goes towards Ugarit, another grassland.

710BC - We learn Masonry -> The Wheel

The Mongols completes the Pyramids.

Two spanish warriors shows up S of Washington.

Hunt granary -> settler.
Harran archer with help of a chop -> archer. Bg revealed.

690BC - The spanish warriors don't like the look of the defense in Washington and waddle outside the borders.

Hattusas archer -> settler.
Ugarit spear -> archer.

670BC - Washingtons cow is irrigated, workers move to chop forest for the barracks.

650BC - Harran got another archer from a chop -> archer.

Kill 2 spanish warriors, another is lurking nearby.

630BC - Nothing.

610BC- Archer kills the last spanish warrior in sight and he promotes to elite.

Scouting archer on the E side stumbles upon a Japanese warrior and we have another foe.

590BC - Hattusas settler -> archer.
Hunt settler -> archer.

Send the settlers to the assigned spots.

570BC - Inca completes SoZ.

Kill the japanese warrior.

550BC - 5 arab warriors shows up S of Washington. A couple of portuguese warriors is coming from the SE, where our scouting archer is.

Washington barracks -> spear.
Harran archer -> archer.

Capture an arabian scout.

6 turns left on the Wheel.

The settlers are in place.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr12_550bc.jpg

That sounds good. :goodjob: We've got enough enemies now that this really feels like AW.

I've got it.

350 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-350BC.SAV)

550 (0): I automatically go to cut the lux rate because our people are too happy, and then realize it's just that we're playing monarch. :lol:

I switch Hattusas to a settler. I think we should always be building one.

Hattusha barracks --> archer.


530 (1): We found Tyrana in the SE. In the SW I take a slight risk and push our settler forward, because I want to start getting the benefit of the cow/game/fish site immediately.

Five warriors from the Arab stack commit suicide attacking Washington (5-0), although one does some pillaging.

Ugarit spearman --> spearman, Hattusha archer --> worker.


510 (2): Our captured scout spots a dark blue border. It's probably one of our present enemies, but I don't know, so I'll stay away from it.

We shoot down the two remaining Arabian warriors around Washington (7-0).


490 (3): We found Aleppo on the rich site to the SW.

Hattusas settler --> archer, Hunt Season worker --> settler, Hattusas archer --> archer.


470 (4): An Arabian spearman arrives to pillage. This could be quite a PITA when we only have archers, though we win in this case (8-0).

An Arabian archer attacks our archer on the mountain next to Washington, and dies (9-0).


450 (5): Washington spearman --> spearman, Harran archer --> archer.

We invent The Wheel, and can't see any horses. This leads me to choose IW over Mathematics, though it's a close call. IW is also likelier than Math to become cheaper while we research it.


430 (6): Not much.


410 (7): We lose an archer attacking an Arabian conscript warrior next to Washington, before we succeed in a second attack (10-1).

A Spanish archer falls attacking Ugarit (11-1), which it reached because it was stacked with another archer, and kept to forests.

Hattusas archer --> archer.


390 (8): We dispose of the other Spanish archer around Ugarit (12-1).

We found Ankuwa--slightly off the dotmap, to take in a game tile--and relieve Aleppo's isolation.

Ugarit spearman --> spearman, Harran archer --> pre-build.


370 (9): A Portuguese warrior perishes attacking Tyrana (13-1).

Hunt Season settler --> archer, Hattusha archer --> archer.


350 (10): Six elite victories this round, four defensive, didn't produce a Great Leader.

Even with more contacts and more cities, our research is far too slow. We need the Great Library as quickly as possible, and we'll be researching Math --> Writing --> Literature or even just Writing --> Lit after IW. So it's time for the pre-build, and I've started one in Harran. That particular location is just a suggestion and can be changed, but we should definitely pre-build somewhere.

Given the unusual distribution of bonuses and pre-improved tiles, we should probably settle sites 1 and 2 on the screenshot next, even though they're CxC. The settlers will need substantial escorts, but we have the spare units. Site 3 is a spot I've left open for a semi-fishing village which can reach size seven without an aqueduct, but it's not a high priority.

There's not much to report in military terms--no new enemies, no serious threats--though roaming spearmen may be a problem until we get swordsmen or cats.

Washington is unusually micromanaged because it's about to grow, and should get the cow back from Tyrana next turn.

The worker next to Hunt Season can chop the forest it's on, and the shields will go to the city just after it completes its archer build.

We have several units stacked south of Hattusha just because it's a useful central location.

New in the south:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-350BC.JPG

NP I doubt the GLB will bring you much in this game. I played one of these and build it, but after many many turns, I finally gave up and went back to researching.

It was on continents and I had maybe 11 known civs, but since they are at war all the time and the 650 cost, they take forever to learn anything.

I think I got one tech that I had skipped and that was all.

Last time I built GLB on a huge monarch map, I started research again after min research on Invention gave me the tech. I'm also against. My research plans would more likely be IW -> Math ->>> Monarchy. We can manage to research. I might have picked catapults first over the iron gamble, but cheapness is also a factor.

I am all with you for the city placement though, NP. And nice count ;)

Unless we settle #1 and #2 really quick, I'd like to see walls in border towns.

And I'm ... UP?

I think a huge map has a cost of 400, I suspect this one has been bumped to 650, much slower.

Ya Beorn, you are up.

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Northern Pike - Just Played
Beorn-eL-Feared - Up
markh - On Deck
Gozpel

I am unsure if we will research faster or not. There are potentially 29 civs that can trade with one another which makes it unusual. Of course, we may not know thame all so even with the GLib we may not be getting first in tech. I would rather not contact all 29 until we have to.

My guess is we won't be ahead in tech.

Will try and bring back iron. Playing.

I think the GL can help inititally to catch up. the AI research will be fast initially, but slow down a lot once they are involved in wars.

Thus, to build it might help us in the short term. I think it's ok and as pointed out, we should have a dedicated city for wonders. This city should get the FP and be somewhere in the south. I actually think that cow city would be good, it has access to 2 cows and 2 hills. If we would move the settlement 1 tile NE from NP suggested spot, that city would have 2 cows, 5 hills and 4 BG. This would be a killer production city, that could net us Sun Tzu and other important wonders.

what do you all think?

this is what I mean

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/wondercitya.jpg

Pre-Turn:
Looks good, change one build to a curragh in Hattusas. Since we now know other civs, don't see why we wouldn't find out about the north. Hit it.

IT
The spears in Tyrana make a good case for themselves being elites.
Bella brings 2 archers and a spear for a ride.

T1.
I should have dismissed the scout ...
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2849/gr28pw.th.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr28pw.jpg)

He will die anyways.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8254/gr33po.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Archer promotes 5/5 finishing the porto siege on Tyrana [4-0]

IT
Lose the mountain archer to arabian assaults
Defend well against the spanishs [8-1]
Babs found Sippar on the W coast

T2.
Cycle the troops to give a heavy escort to the settlers headed south.

IT
Siege movement around Washington

T3.
Settler stalled at home

T4.
Attack some troops lying around
Lose an elite archer to the last spanish spear
Take back mount Rushmore [13-2]

IT
Babs found Izibiar near our #1 spot

T5.
Start moving towards #1

IT
2 spanish archers come knocking at our stack's neighborhood
An arab spear comes to itch us in the west coast.

T7.
Found Spite, work on walls
Dismiss the spanish envoy [15-2]

T9.
Messengers sent to Izibia
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2879/gr48ab.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr48ab.jpg)

T10.
Our messenger dispatch is disturbed by news from the front
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2224/gr64wn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

1- We 'have' iron

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/590/gr76ru.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr76ru.jpg)

2- Near Ankuwa is a foothold situation. I cut the spearmen's way into the forests so next turn they have to move on grass to keep working on our dyes' pillage. We can take them there.
3- 2 archers were lost and 1 promoted to the spanishs. We need reinforcements bad, many underway.
4- A settler is under the worker NW Washington, fortified until we have the front under control
5- Do we suicide the curragh on the north pass?

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4799/gr50iz.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr50iz.jpg)

>>> The Save <<< (http://archimede.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/GR12_BC150.zip)

X-post with Mr Rat:
That city would indeed be huge. A pity I played at this time and not 3 hours later. We have one settler ready to head there and motivation enough from the iron that's in there. Odds are there's one more BG in the marshes, too.

Pre-Turn:

3- We need reinforcements bad, many underway.


This is what one can expect, from having so aggressive a stance on scouting. You meet too many civs, too soon and put a lot of stress on those early units that do not even have any bombardment support at this stage.

I was cringing as I saw more scouting, before NP said you found enough friends and still more scouting was done. Very brave indeed.

well, the wonder city is now even more precious though I think we need another city short term NE of the iron to grab it faster. We need swords badly. And we do need an army to cut down the pesky invaders. Of course, we need to expand south to make sure the wonder city can actually work all those tiles without being pillaged...

unless people don't agree on that city. But in such a huge game, it will go a long way to have such a powerhouse (maybe we are lucky and have coals there as well) :crazyeye: do mashes give coal?

Well done so far gents, but you'll be walking a tightrope for a while.

Forget curraghs. You are on the main continent. It probably wraps around to the east and west. Perhaps it is in the shape of an "E" lying on its side.

Use your terrain, it is your best asset at the moment.

Vmxa and Beorn, thanks for your thoughts on the Great Library. Certainly you've played more monarch/huge games than I have. I was influenced simply by the fact that two of our four contacts during my round were well ahead of us in tech (and now it's three of five).

I very much like the idea of founding Rat's Wonder city. Depending on circumstances, we could solve the problem of getting quick access to the iron with a colony rather than a second city in the area.

Are there any two Civ III players left on Earth who use the same graphics? :lol: Anyway, it was good of you to post all those screenshots, Beorn.

Meeting the babs was unavoidable, and so was (I think!) every other civ around. They came to us. Being good neighbors, we answered the door. I think we'll have to hold back the teacup breaks and make more spears and pults in the next roster roll though. The cringes might be well deserved.

Marshes do not give coal, misfortunately, only rubber and oil.

X-post: the second city wouldn't be a waste IMHO, short-term it gives us iron and a few tiles, longer term it gets a deer and can be a good beaker farm.

GLB might be a good gamble if we wish to go straight for lit and shut off research. We inevitably will learn monarchy, which is good. As to relying on it for techs beyond that point, that's a whole other bag of nuts.

I like the idea of lumberjacking up a quick granary in Aleppo, which can be a tremendous worker pump for us. :goodjob: It looks as though we can most easily reach 5 fpt and 5 spt there (without poaching Ankuwa's game tile, which I'd rather avoid) by irrigating both the game and the cow, working one unimproved forest, and clearing and mining one more forest. The additional chop could only contribute to the granary if the worker left the game tile before building even a road, so I wouldn't worry about that.

If we're going to found Rat's Wonder city and its auxiliary iron-claiming town soon, which we should, we'll need roads in that area. So at the risk of stating the obvious, the worker now free next to Washington and the worker two turns from finishing a road in that area should turn to this job next, whatever the other temptations.

If Ugarit stays with its present worker build the forest chop next to the town will be wasted, so a spearman or archer should precede the worker.

When our capital is building twenty-shield units (and when free shields from growth aren't part of the calculation), it can work its fish tile for extra commerce without losing time on the build.

NP the AI should do fine on the AA techs, up to the last couple. It is the middle age stuff you want to get from the GLB and those are where they will likely fall into the tank. but maybe not in this game.

It will be interesting to see how they do, it is not like I have played or seen lots of 30+ civ games. I built the wonder anyway, because its Monarch and you can.

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
ThERat
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared - Just Played
markh - Up
Gozpel - Waiting for the Weekend slot

I agree we can't have avoided meeting civs - it is inevitable - for the Babs, I suspect we were going to meet the soon anyway. The challenge of this game will be the large number that can be met.

One thing I think we need to do though is fill our land. If all 30 civs send settlers to our lands we will meet them all quckly and the game will be much harder. I am not sure when the AI will have their land filled, but I would start grabbing some of the jungle fairly soon.

I got it. I will play tomorrow evening.

About the research though, do we want to head towards literature anyways? The debate so far has been about long term profitability over GLB, but on the short run it is a wonder not to be neglected. And IIRC I kept the pre-build going in Harran, there's got to be well over 60 shields in there so far.

I am fine with building it. It will at least catch us up to our neighbors.

Yes, by all means let's build it.

The prebuild is slow but steady. I guess after maths, we can go for writing and literature. It should then tie in nicely with the build.
By the time of completion, we should be able to have our new wonder city up and running.

I also agree with Greebley to fill our backyard so that the AI won't come with settler pairs.
In this game, initial troops will always be the biggest obstacle, and if we get too many contacts at once, it might just kill us.
I do hope that the landmass will provide some sort of choke somewhere, else expansion is very tough.

Having a steady stream of settler pairs walking into your lands would be a nice source of slaves. :mischief:

I glad to see someone thinks so too. A few slaves and possible promotions is not a bad thing, till you can fill.

Having a steady stream of settler pairs walking into your lands would be a nice source of slaves. :mischief:

If this were continents I would consider it. I wouldn't want to lose the game just for some slaves though which could happen if we meet enough civs early enough. It is not worth the risk. 28 civs can send a lot of troops.

Sorry, I do not manage to play today. I can play tomorrow evening at the earliest, so, Greebley if you want it take it.

GO ahead and play Mark as long as you think you can get it today or tomorrow. If not, then I can play.

I can get to it tomorrow. Took me 5 minutes to write this, because of:cheers:

0) 150BC : looks fine

IBT : Hattusas : archer -> archer

1) 130BC : archer loses to reg Arab spear at Aleppo (0-1)
archer kills that pesky spear (1-1)
archer kills Babylonian spear in Izibia (2-1)
eArcher loses to a reg Arabian archer (2-2)

IBT : we defeat 4 units on defense and lose two spears at Spite (6-4)
Washington : settler -> archer
Hunt Season : archer -> settler

2) 110BC : Curragh sinks a Portuguese galley (7-4)
eArcher kills Japanese archer at Spite (8-4)

IBT : Ugarit : worker -> archer
Tyrana : spear -> spear

3) 90BC : archer kills Portuguese archer at Spite and promotes elite (8-4)
eArcher kills Portuguese warrior at Spite (9-4)

IBT : Portugal request an audience and offers some portwine. Sorry, I am not allowed.
Hatusha : archer -> settler
Ankuwa : barracks -> archer

4) 70BC : archer kills Arabian spear at Washington (9-4)
archer loses attacking Izibia (9-5)
a second archer defeats the spear and Izibia is history (10-5)
archer kills Japanese warrior at Spite (11-5)

IBT : lose an archer on defense (11-6)
a lot of units approach Spite, next IBT will be tough
Hattusas : archer -> settler

5) 50BC : move units
6 archers will attack two spears and an archer at Spite IBT
we have 6 archers at Spite to retake it if it falls

IBT : the Arabs capture Spite, we lost two spears and an archer. They defeated 4 archers (15-9)

6) 30BC : archers kills Arab spear in Spite (16-9)
eArcher kills Arab archer in Spite (17-9)
eArcher kills Arab archer and Spite is ours again (18-9)
archer kills Arab archer at Spite and promotes elite (19-9)
archer kills Japanese archer at Spite (20-9)
found Wonder City at Rat's suggested spot

IBT : Hunt Season : settler -> archer
Ugarit : archer -> archer

7) 10BC : nothing

IBT : a bunch of Japanese units appear between Spite and Wonder City

8) 10AD : just moving troops

IBT : Ankuwa : archer -> spear

9) 30AD : eArcher kills Arab archer at Spite (21-9)
eArcher kills Japanese warrior at Wonder City (22-9)
archer kills Japanese archer at Wonder City (23-9)
eArcher kills Japanese archer at Wonder City (24-9)
found Hubishna
archer kills Japanese archer at Wonder City (25-9)
archer kills Arab archer at Spite and promotes elite (26-9)

IBT : nothing
Washington : archer -> archer
Hattusas : settler -> archer
Hunt Season : archer -> spear
Hattusha : settler -> archer
Tyrana : spear -> worker
Aleppo : granary -> warrior (MP)

10) 50AD : archer kills Arab archer at Spite (27-9)
archer kills Japanese archer at Spite (28-9)

Not a good kill count. Maths is in in 4. We need those pults. The pre-build is at 30 turns. I don't know whether this is too fast maybe.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_AD50.SAV

Roster:
Greebley - UP
ThERat - on deck
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh - just played
Gozpel - Waiting for the Weekend slot

we simply need the iron and cats, then the game should get better and we hopefully get a sword army up and running, what's up with the RnG here.

I would leave the palace build at this rate, IIRC the palace build will get more expensive the more cities we have. Am I correct?

Yes it will grow in cost as you built towns.

Given the size of the map, I think we won't see the palace cost grow until we have a lot towns. I think it first grows at 4/6 or 5/6 the OCN. I forget what the OCN is though. We are talking about 16+ towns here as a minimum, IIRC

Edit: Based on the OCN Given below and my understanding of palace worth, the Palace will increase to 400 shields when we have 19 towns.

Here are some of the details of the map. I went back to the first game and dug up the details:
The one thing I am not sure about is if planes have extended moves. I didn't see it mentioned so I think they are the same.
The boat movement will matter less given that this is Pangea.
Note that the maximum distance that you can Airlift units may enter this game. That has confused me in the past.

1) Tech Rate to 650. (for all map sizes)
2) OCN is at 28. (for all map sizes)
3) Changed scenario properties to allow all 31 civs.
4) Changed size of huge map to 250X250.
5) Naval movement changes
Unit:
Curragh - 2 - 2 no change
Galley - 3 - 3 no change
Dromon - 3 - 3 no change
Carrack - 4 - 5 (+1)
Caravel - 4 - 5 (+1)
Galleon - 4 - 5 (+1)
Frigate - 5 - 6 (+1)
Man-O-War - 5 - 6 (+1)
Privateer - 5 - 7 (+2)
Ironclad - 3 - 5 (+2)
Destroyer - 8 - 9 (+1)
Cruiser - 6 - 7 (+1)
Battleship - 5 - 7 (+2)
Carrier - 7 - 7 no change
Transport - 6 - 7 (+1)
Submarine - 4 - 5 (+1)
Nuclear Sub - 5 - 7 (+2)
Aegis Cruiser - 7 - 9 (+2)

Preliminaries:
· Optimal City Number (OCN) is the number in the "Optimal Number of Cities (Corruption)" entry for the world size of the map.
· Palace Cost (PC) is a multiple of 100 shields with a minimum value of 300 and a maximum value of 1000.
· Number of Cities (NC) is the current number of cities the player has

Summary:

Palace cost is 300 shields until you have a number of cities equal to 2/3 of OCN. At that point it becomes 400 shields and continues to rise by 100 shields for every additional OCN/6 cities you get until it hits 1000 shields at 5/3 OCN which is the maximum. A side effect of this is that the Palace will cost 600 shields if you are at OCN. If you understand that, the rest will probably just confuse you, so you should stop reading Otherwise, continue to the gory details.

1. What number of cities will result in a given Palace cost?

Formula:
Code:
Note that PC is never less than 300 nor more than 1000

PC * OCN
Minimum NC = INT( -------- + .5)
600

In other words, (PC * OCN / 600), rounded up.
Table:
Code:
Palace Minimum Number
Cost of Cities
------ --------------
300 1
400 OCN*4/6
500 OCN*5/6
600 OCN*6/6 = OCN
700 OCN*7/6
800 OCN*8/6
900 OCN*9/6
1000 OCN*10/6
Examples:
Note that this formula corresponded exactly to the results of my tests with 3 different OCNs.
Code:
PC-> 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
OCN
Expected 4 1 3 3 4 5 5 6 7
Actual 4 1 3 N/A 4 5 N/A 6 7

Expected 18 1 12 15 18 21 24 27 30
Actual 18 1 12 15 18 21 24 27 30

Expected 36 1 24 30 36 42 48 54 60
Actual 36 1 24 30 36 42 48 54 60

2. What will be the Palace cost if I have a given number of cities?

Formula:
Code:
IF (NC < OCN*2/3), PC = 300

ELSE IF (NC >= OCN*5/3), PC = 1000

( 6 * NC )
ELSE, PC = INT(--------) * 100
( OCN )
Examples:
Again, the formula and observed 3 tests are identical; only 1 column for each is shown for simplicity. Note that the first 2 tests were stopped at 40 cities.
Code:

NC OCN-> 4 18 36
-- ---- ---- ----
1 300 300 300
2 300 300 300
3 400 300 300
4 600 300 300
5 700 300 300
6 900 300 300

7 1000 300 300
8 1000 300 300
9 1000 300 300
10 1000 300 300
11 1000 300 300
12 1000 400 300

13 1000 400 300
14 1000 400 300
15 1000 500 300
16 1000 500 300
17 1000 500 300
18 1000 600 300

19 1000 600 300
20 1000 600 300
21 1000 700 300
22 1000 700 300
23 1000 700 300
24 1000 800 400

25 1000 800 400
26 1000 800 400
27 1000 900 400
28 1000 900 400
29 1000 900 400
30 1000 1000 500

31 1000 1000 500
32 1000 1000 500
33 1000 1000 500
34 1000 1000 500
35 1000 1000 500
36 1000 1000 600

37 1000 1000 600
38 1000 1000 600
39 1000 1000 600
40 1000 1000 600
41 600
42 700

43 700
44 700
45 700
46 700
47 700
48 800

49 800
50 800
51 800
52 800
53 800
54 900

55 900
56 900
57 900
58 900
59 900
60 1000

main issue now are the many AI units, we might want to block those pesky spears from entering our territory, I would form a wall of units in the west once we have enough units.

the palace prebuild can always get adjusted

Sorry that did not come out so well. I have attached the word doc, don't remember where I got this one.

Ya, I did remember it correctly 19 is about 4/6 of 28.

Oh, I got it BTW.

I am a fan of unit walls. :D I will look into it.

Good going markh, the neither catapults nor iron situation is starting to show. Without catapults, at this point, odds are we'll get around a 2/3 score - so while 3/4 is bad in itself, it's a good outcome given the situation.

I'm for keeping the palace build up as is, and if we really screw it up, we can always starve the city a bit, work flat grasses, etc. There's been a lot of effort onto it and it should be maintained IMHO.

I wonder, however, if we should work on a contingency tech plan or stop research after Lit and wait to reap the techs out of it. I rarely build GLB, so I wouldn't know.

About the slaves and opponent count, so long as we are not king of our domain, I'd like to see the backyards filled. When we have more control, an army or two, catapults and a good road network to the front, it could be worth it to disband a few towns back there. The wall could be a neat idea; they seemed to want our dyes pretty hard during my set.

I agree with Beorn about abandoning some cites later on. But that will be much later.
We should mark those cities that we do not need to develop and simply disband later on and not develop any infra there.

For now, it's more cities = better anyway

ThERat,

Can we swap? I have had a nasty headache all night and may end up working late tomorrow. I should be able to play this weekend though after you.

Thanks for the elaborate treatise on palace costs, Vmxa. :eek: :goodjob:

ok, will try and slot this in tonight, which suits me better anyway as I have a full day event going on at work tomorrow (saturday) :mad:
thus, the AI will feel my wrath at this moment :D

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_AD250.SAV)

Pre-Turn
prebuild check, currently 300shields, the GL is 400 shields, so even after our research we still have around 12 turns to go (9*12)
we do have 12 cities with 3 more coming up soon, we might be able to reach 18 cities before the prebuild expires

MM Ugarit to get archer in 1 turn and not waste any shields

IT defeat 2 units on defense [2-0]

1. 70AD
kill an archer next to wonder city, no leader [3-0]
estalish wall of units between Aleppo and Ankuwa

IT, we better get cats faster as the first swords show up

2. 90AD
there are now 5 Spanish archers next to Spite [7-0]
decide to attack them, take out 4, and promote on archer to elite

found 2 more cities

IT no attacks, we get the FP message, I rather we finally get an army

3. 110AD
now we have 2 swords next to Spite, attack, lose e-archer but take out both [9-1]
whip walls in wonder city since there are 4 units next to it

IT defeat 3 units at Washington and wonder city [12-1]
maths is in
writing currently in 9

4. 130AD
take out another sword at Spite
attack spear at wonder city and we get what we really need

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr12130.jpg
fill army with 2 archers and defeat another archer with it [15-1]

IT no attacks but quite a few babs units show up in the west

5. 150AD
take out an intruder spear
army takes out a spanish settler pair on hill but gets wounded quite a bit
take out yet another sword at Spite [18-1]

IT take out 2 archers but lose a spear in spite [20-2]

6. 170AD
in order to speed up iron connection, use slaves to form colony to get instant road
then found Irontown
take out 1 spear near wondercity [21-2]

7. 190AD
take out 2 archers, but lose one [23-3]
swap buils so we can switch to swords as soon as it is connected

IT no attacks but more and more unis show up including a spanish horse

8. 210AD
9 babs units next to Ankuwa :eek:
take out 1 spear + sword but lose 1 archer in the process [25-4]
we have 5 defenders in Ankuwa now

IT wow, this is nerve wrecking, we go 6:0 on defense, but more units show up
we get 2 swords [31-4]

9. 230AD
attack units, go 4:1 (unfortunately babs surely now enjoy their GA) [35-5]
we get another MGL !!!
we really need this sword army to help out cleaning up all those units

IT defeat a babs warrior [36-5]

10. 250AD
found Ivriz in the east to fill the last gap
we need some defense there since there is a galley around
use archer army to defeat 2 units in the east, but wounded heavily
defeat 3 archers there as well with units from both Spite and wonder city
defeat sword at Spite [42-5]

sword army is filled with 2 units and a third is now right below to fill next turn

writing is due in 3 turns, the palace in 16 turns, might be just right

the messy front
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr12250a.jpg

future expansion
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr12250b.jpg

if we get more leaders, we should rush FP, HE and pentagon in wonder city to really make sure borders expand

edit: wrong kill ratio, corrected now

That sounds good. :goodjob:

Well played ThERat. That is an excellent kill ratio for only having Archers and Spears. We now have Armies, Catapults, and Swords which will really turn the tide.

Swords army :D :thumbsup:

I'd go HE first in wonder city, FP isn't a huge deal atm and the earlier the HE, the better.

I got it BTW. Hope to play today.

Preturn: Things look stretched a bit thin. I try to reinforce our front line but no units are Available. ThERat has done the best we can with what we have, so nothing moved.
I do change Spite and Wonder city to Catapults. Barracks take too long nice though the instant-heal is.

IBT: Our Elite Spear in Wonder City goes to 1 hp. The next Archer Kills our Archer Army. BTW, I think I prefer Spear Armies over Archer Armies in general. They can either hold a single location or go out and pillage.

260 AD: Kill an Archer and 2 Spear.

IBT: Spear in Wonder city was back to 3 hp but still lost vs a 3 hp Archer.

270 AD: Work hard to save our road to the Iron. Kill 2 Bowmen, Spear, and Archer.
Spite is under heavy attack. It is as well defended as I can make it.

IBT: I have been playing too much Civ4. We embarrasingly run out of money and lose a Barracks. Sigh.
Lose 2 Spear and an Archer killing a whole bunch of Archers.

280 AD: Sword Army is in Spite. We get a Great Leader! I build a second (sword) Army since we lost the Archer army.
For the first time our towns are relatively safe, though there are more Babylons on the way. The only town with enemies within our territory is Spite.

IBT: Kill some Archers on Defense.

290 AD: Healing turn.

IBT: Mor Babs near the town. A Spanish force starts into our territory.

300 AD: Kill 2 Bowmen. Kill the Spanish force of a Spear and 2 Archers. Kill a swordsman.

IBT: Units advance on us - A lot of sword so I am glad for the Sword Army.

310 AD: Kill a Horse and Sword. Other army Heals.

IBT: Quiet.

320 AD: Another set of Bowmen to kill. We are also getting action near the wonder city again. We now are getting some Catapults so no losses.

330 AD: Attack the nearby Babylon town and kill a Spear
We get another Leader. I build a 3rd Sword Army. We can now switch to the Pentagon if we fail to get the GLib.

However Babylon is building Sun Tzu so we are way behind in tech and need the GLib.

340 AD: Attack Bab town again, but am down on HP so I step back onto the road.
3rd Sword army has 2 swords in it A few random units killed.

350 AD: A recently built settler reaches the front and can build a town. I suggest one of the forest towns to the West of Spite.

Notes:
It was really sad. My Civ3 skills were rusty. Got disorder more than once and ran out of cash. Apologies for the less than stellar play (though my combat skills seems intact - I didn't keep exact count but the results were pretty good.

I will include a picture of the front. WIth 3 Armies we should definitely send out one to sack Babylon towns. They are growing quickly

I sent out Curragh out until it spotted an unknown border. I disbanded it so it wouldn't meet a boat for that civ.

I would MM.

[b]It occurs to me we can change the palace prebuild to Pentagon and not need to wait for Lit to reach 300. I believe we can get the GLib a turn or twol earlier if we do this.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_AD350.jpg


File is too large to attach:
The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_AD350.zip)

Gozpel, Apologies for not asking you if wanted to play first. I had forgotten that little detail when I grabbed the game.

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played
ThERat - Swap
Northern Pike - Up
Beorn-eL-Feared - On Deck
markh
Gozpel

Greebley, your turns were well played :goodjob: The amount of units is massive and we better get back in the tech game, MDI's, pike etc won't be nice. We know that Spain has horses for sure. We have to get there eventually.

As for the short term, I would expand south to get wonder city out of the limelight. I would stop making cats in wonder city and swap to a palace. If we want to have a chance in this game, we need SunTzu or KT and the enemy started on SunTzu already. Thus, we need to develop wonder city faster. We can only do so, if we get it out of the frontline.

Let's hope we get the GL in 2 turnsets. Good luck NP.

Looks really good, greebley, nothing to seriously frown upon or be ashamed of. One thing I wonder though is wether or not it would be good to change one or two cat builds on the fronts to make reg spears, just so as to cover the iron and the 2-3 towns around. Ankuwa and washington could do that and get vets out, too. I take it we need the pults though, so I'll trust NP on that call.

Actually when I switched them pults we had a real shortage. Now we are doing better in terms of # of cats and NP may very well want to build something else.

actually I do hope that babs will get Sun Tzu, thus we could capture the city and keep it for ourselves.

As for cats, we can't get enough of them. Onyl issue now is to get more cities up to not exceed unit limit.

410 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-410AD.SAV)

350 (0): I follow Greebley's idea of switching the pre-build in Harran to the Pentagon.

I change a couple of cat builds in cities with barracks to spearmen, as suggested.


360 (1): I re-name Aleppo Worker Pump Only, for all the good that's done in the past. ;)

I somehow cancel a sword army's movement while naming it, and have to re-load--not a trivial thing, with this file. :rolleyes:

Around Spite we slay two Spanish archers and an Arabian spearman (3-0).

We lose a spearman defending Hubishna (near our capital) from a Portuguese archer landed from a galley (3-1).


370 (2): We dispose of the Port. archer near Hubishna (4-1).

Around Spite we deal with a Spanish horse/archer stack (6-1).

On the Wonder City/Irontown front we defeat two Port. archers and lose the asterisked elite archer with the remarkable name (8-2). :lol:

Bah, we lose another archer on the Wonder City front, to the counterattack of a depleted Port. archer (8-3). We had almost nothing in the area and I had to take some chances.


380 (3): We eliminate a Japanese and a Port. archer on the WC/IT front, and an Arabian spearman around Spite (11-3).


390 (4): We kill two Arabian swordsmen next to Spite, and an Arabian spearman which was getting behind our lines (14-3).

An Arabian swordsman falls attacking Spite (15-3).


400 (5): We cut down two Arabian swordsmen outside Spite, and a Japanese swordsman outside Wonder City (18-3).

A Spanish horseman and a Spanish archer hurl themselves in vain at the walls of Spite (20-3).

Washington and Ankuwa complete walls, just as the Babylonians arrive.


410 (6): The Babylonians have been advancing on Washington and Ankuwa in a way which has made the river between the two towns a real inconvenience to us. We finally have healed armies not needed at Spite available to intervene, and we wipe out a stack of four Bowmen and two spearmen (26-3). There are still thirteen units visible in this Babylonian column, though.

On the WC/IT front we smite a Japanese spearman, a Japanese swordman, and a Port. archer (29-3). We're still very short of attacks over here.

Four elite victories this round didn't produce a Great Leader.

Only six turns, I'm afraid. Considering my schedule this week, it seemed that submitting a partial round quickly would be the best contribution I could make.

I think this game is reaching its crisis. We still have so few units to attack with on defense--you all know what I mean :D--that our armies have to do most of the work, and there's no question of taking the offensive. We're drifting towards "if you aren't advancing, you're losing" status. We have built up a force of seven swordsmen other than those in our armies, and barring disaster we'll have the GLib in twelve turns. So we could turn things around, but it'll be close.

Our basic problem remains our start in the forest, of course. We were out-expanded by the Babylonians at least, and this is monarch.

I like Rat's idea of founding new cities which would give Wonder City some protection, although I had no chance to implement it. We have one settler in WC itself and another in Tyrana.

I think the forest chops we've got going in our heartland now will be almost enough. This is why we're roading some forest tiles; and the three workers which will activate on forests next turn (two of them slaves stacked together) are there to road, not chop.

Spite can be attacked by horsemen coming from unseen points on the nearby road, so we have to be careful about the garrison there.

Distasteful though it is, I'd pop-rush barracks in Spite and Wonder City as soon as it would only cost 1 PP. In Spite, this may be possible next turn, after which it can turn BG tiles over to WC. We badly need the full healing.

Notes on individual cities:

There's no need to change the capital's MM until it produces its next swordsman, because it'll be getting 20 shields from forest chops. After that it should be set to 10 spt at a food deficit of one.

We have a cat in Emar, which will be able to escape in three turns when a gap is finally made in the jungle surrounding the town. :lol:

Hubishna's barracks should be treated as a library pre-build.

Tyrana's MM should be adjusted next turn.

The forest chops next to Ugarit and Hunt Season are properly timed to speed up those towns' builds, I'm fairly sure.

The blue tide:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-410AD.JPG

I up, unsure about playing tonight but will do on wednesday at worst. Can look at the save from work, so I'll comment later - or try to ;)

we need to expand no matter what happens. Thus, take an army as settler cover and bring it to the desired spot, then clear the area. I would go for the hill south of wonder city. that would be a good defensive spot anyway.
and maybe we can settle west in the forest as well to absorb the babs

Pre-Turn:
Increase lux a notch, allowing for 3 swords to leave MP duties in the north
Cancel walls off of Worker Pump Only (tm) and start pumping workers only at 5/5 f/s
Hit it

IT
lots of movements, no attacks

T1.
Buy ourselves a turn to heal armies at washington: cat volley, one attack with each army, then back to heal while the babs have no healthy unit to attack with. [3-0]
The unit wall in the west is almost up.
Kill one horse in Spite, one archer in irontown [5-0]
Brace for impact and hit it :ar15:

T2.
Literature in, research off, pre-build changed back. At current rate, it will finish on markh's turn 2.
Third army healing in irontown, will go found a city when healed
1st and 2nd divisions in washington healing as well to crush the blue wave
All bombards, no :hammer:

IT
The arabs show up with 8 swords

T3.
The blue tide turns east towards wonder city, but is crushed by the reef of our swordsmen [11-0]
Some skirmishes at Spite, preparing the terrain for a greater fight against Khan Abu Bakr [13-0]

IT
Japan moves 5 attackers in iron city, the arabs move inland, babylon keeps pushing

T4.
The arabs are quickly quelled by iron boulders and blades [18-1]
A few more kills against japan and some random wanderers [26-1]
Leave a catapult bait just out of reach

IT
We finally get attacked on an IBT: a bowman dies on a 3/4 spear and a jap sword on our army [28-1]
The bait works and nets us 2 easy kills for the turn [30-1]

T5.
The arabian epic 'A Day in Hattusas' continues to bring us good news [34-1]
I notice we have made a dent in the babylonians' power of late. Slowly but surely, they will fall.
Do the catapult bait again
1st army has its settler cover ready to climb the hill next turn.

T6.
Lose a sword against a bowman, but the others do well against arabia and japan [44-2]

Army and settler in place to found the hill city. They spot a light blue border, however.

IT
Lose a spear to a spanish horse and Tyrana to a portuguese archer drop :blush: [44-4]

T7.
This turn I lose an elite sword to a 2hp spear... the RNG giveth but it also taketh away [49-5]

http://img328.imageshack.us/img328/1529/gr84ur.th.jpg (http://img328.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr84ur.jpg)

IT
The spanish horsemen are now 2-0-1 during my set :cringe:

T8.
I think now is a good time to stop, as I have no clue how to proceed with the pushing.

All 3 armies, along with the garrissons of Spite and Washington have yet to move.

http://img328.imageshack.us/img328/1564/gr92dp.th.jpg (http://img328.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr92dp.jpg)

I am clueless because I don't know wether we should push east to make room for cities around wonder city, or push west (widening our frontline but making several towns), or just keep killing units conservatively. You guys are more experienced and will have more educated opinions than mine.

Meanwhile, we are [53-6] in the last turns, but I'm afraid I've been spreading units a bit too wide and we'll need consolidation/regrouping to keep this pace.

>>> The Save <<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-490AD.zip)

EDIT: Save fixed now

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared - Just played.
markh - Up
Gozpel - On Deck. (If you can't play this weekend then tell us)

good turns, let's hope we get the GL soon.

Of course now we raze those 2 towns near our new city (Pamplona and Yokohama). Then I would get a new city up in the forest south of Spite to take Wonder city out of the line of fire. I would then swap Wonder city to a prebuild already. We don't really need a rax there as it will be off the pressure soon (hopefully).

We can use the prebuild for either SunTzu or KT. In the worst case, pentagon is always an option though I think we should use a leader for that.

Good play, Beorn. :goodjob:

Of course now we raze those 2 towns near our new city (Pamplona and Yokohama). Then I would get a new city up in the forest south of Spite to take Wonder city out of the line of fire. I would then swap Wonder city to a prebuild already. We don't really need a rax there as it will be off the pressure soon (hopefully).

I agree. The Babylonians have the Great Wall, which makes going after them with sword armies an unattractive prospect.

A couple lurker comments. I really have never liked the one-worker-a-tile approach. Clearing a jungle with one worker is almost a waste IMHO. The two lead cities are at 9 spt. If you MM right, Harran, Hatusas and Hunt Season can pull 10 spt. Although if Hunt Season is cranking settlers, obviously you can't sustain it.

As far as where to go, I'd eliminate Yokohama and replace Under Prssure, going 1 NE. Then you can build along the ridge line running south. With walls on the hill towns that should provide a good defensive line. Push against Babylon to the SE bringing the workers along to quickly make use of the abundant opportunities for forest chops that in turn will allow for quick walls.

Any thought about using an MGL to jump the capital to a place like Washington?

distance based corruption is going to be pretty trivial for a long while. I wouldn't bother moving the capitol. Remember this is a super large map. We can be at 3x the distance to get the same amount of corruption as a standard map.

there is no need to jump palace. If we get the FP in wonder city, that would be just nice. We will get quite a few cities which can be productive with courts.
The outlying cities will be great science farms once we are in monarchy. By the way, once we acquire that tech, shall we revolt or wait? The limited unit support would make a later shift to monarchy attractive. Now, most cities are below pop7.

We also need horses for our GA which will be a real boost for us

With all those 2-1-1 tiles lying around, a despotic GA wouldn't be such a waste at all - and chances are we'll be a monarchy rather soon anyways. The only horses we have against us are still the spanish's, so wherever they are, they fall 2nd on my hitlist after babylon.

Clearing a jungle with one worker is almost a waste IMHO.

Yes. The problem is more with jungle than with one worker per tile. Early in the game jungle should be roaded first when absolutely necessary, and otherwise ignored.

I take it this evening and see what I can do. Hopefully we get a nice big house with many filled bookshelves. I cannot remember ? Did we have horses in sight ? I want knights.:hammer:

The only horses we are aware of are spanish, and they aren't in sight. I haven't checked CA2 for wether or not anyone has some, though.

0) 490AD : use some cats, but no units left to attack

IBT : lose two units on defense

1) 500AD : not very good, one army in the red on two spears at Yokohama, lose two swords on a wounded spear. that stinks :mad:

IBT : uh, our red army is still alive, this time we do not lose a unit

2) 510AD : kill various units without a loss and two swords promote elite

IBT : again no losses on defense

3) 520AD : cats do their job, mainly units healing

IBT : we get this big building with filled bookshelves

4) 530AD : Abu Bakr seems to be seriously interested in Spite. 8 swords will be there next turn
Kill a sword in Yokohama, another one appears

IBT : the techs come in and we are in the next age, but no medieval tech learned, yet. monarchy comes in, but do not revolt now

5) 540AD : finally we destroy Yokohama
the Arabs lose almost their complete stack at Spite

IBT : our army in under pressure is redlined by a Japanes archer

6) 550AD : the Arab stack is history, just two spears are left

IBT : nothing important

7) 560AD : the area around Washington is more relaxed now

IBT : we lose an army in Under Pressure against several Japanes swords
we get republic and feudalism

8) 570AD : upgrade some vet swords to MDIs

IBT : Under Pressure still is attacked, the Arabs again send a nice stack of swords towards Spite

9) 580AD : kill units

IBT : Portugal lands a spear and an acrher at our capitol

10) 590AD : kill units

IBT : Arabs go for Wonder City now

11) 600AD : wound all Arabian units at Wonder City

hm, uploading pictures does not work. Sorry guys.

If we want to revolt we could do it now. I think we have enough units at the front. I could not expand, so nothing have changed much. Too many foreign units there. I had many elite victories, but no MGLs. :cry: For the next player. There is another Portuguese galley reaching our capitol in 1 or 2 turns. I have a sword and two MDIs there to welcome the landing party.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_600AD.zip

MDI's should be a great push upwards, if we have a dozen I think we're safe to revolt :thumbsup: Too bad about the army, but hey, this is a super huge map, we'll have time to make more :borg:

I would wait a little to revolt so that we have enough units. Too bad about the army, we really have to be careful here. We do only have 2 armies, which is really low for such an intense game.
I suggest to use some MGL's for HE and then Pentagon. 4 unit armies are much stronger.

And we really need to expand soon unless we want to lose this game

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
ThERat
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh - Just Played
Gozpel - Uo

The loss of the army was really bad. It was 3/4th strength in the city and a single archer reduced it by half to 1/4th. That is ridiculous. In return I had very few losses during my set attacking swords with our swords. Many elite victories, but no leader. We are more than due another one and an MDI army would be very nice.:D As soon as we can get rid of the Spanish town at Under Pressure we can put a city there, although it is quite difficult to get the roads up and improve the terrain there due the high numbers of units coming there. I was not able to push forward as too many units came towards Spite, especially from Arabia. We can put another city in the west at worker pump. The babs slowed down.

Losing an army is bad luck, not necessary bad play. It looks like mark had a bunch of units coming at him and no time to gather a second defense and RNG played out horribly.

No sense of thinking of switching gov until we have enough troops, so that won't happen during my turns I think. I will play this today and tomorrow, I'm up in SGOTM as well, so I won't rush through this.

I do want a couple of leaders, one for FP in Wonder City and another army of different strength. :) We can always hope, right?

I've got it.

The babs slowed down.

We can hope that they've used up the flood of units from their GA.

I have computer problems and need a skip until I sorted it out. Something drains the memory and I got that beautiful BSOD, I might have to reformat this old piece of junk.

Sorry guys.

Ok, I got it then.

gozpel, if it is truely an old piece of junk, this game will crush it. It will be hard enough on 3GH, 1GMB system. Good luck on the formating.

vmxa: Yep. a 1200Athlon :lol: with 500mb mem. But the daughter ran it down for the last time and it's useless to fix it again and I now sit on a 900 Duron.

We were going to buy a new computer around this time, but we have to wait to taxreturn in July. I don't want to play 2hr turns, so I better be skipped from this game. If it's still alive in July I might jump in again. :)

I follow this anyways.

My condolences as I once played a 24 civ PTW on a 250x250 lots of water map in an AU game and it got very funny. Settler animations sometimes took 2 or 3 minutes to finish. The one where it squats and then makes the town.

Most of the stuff is strickly cpu bound, so the slower the processor the greater the suffering. That was a 900 Pentium III with 500MB running Win98x.

Edit it was worse than I remembered, it was actually 1.5GH or 1.6 system. I no longer had the 900 and still have the system used in that game, even though it was few years back.

After playing Aggie's 360x360 game with a 1.8 GHz machine and 512 Meg of memory every other game I have played has seemed fast. :lol: I still play this game with the above. It doesn't matter how fast your comp is, this game will drastically slow down when we start laying down rails.

Preturn: I built a few more Pikes. I find it more difficult to advance forward if I only have offensive units. The defensive units mean I don't have to deal with all the enemy troops. I just let them attack while I defend somewhere else.

Early:
610 IBT: We just can't win in the Army department. We lose another army to a about 4-5 Archers, a Horse and 2 swords. This army was completely healthy, fortified, and behind walls on a hill (that is a defense of 6 3/4 with 13-14 hp) ! Underpressure is Razed.

Same turn Disease strikes our wonder City.

620 AD: Despite the above I am still trying to push forward. BTW, I would have worked harder in getting a road to under-pressure. I like having another unit along with the army, but getting there is hard. My preferred method is to put workers under a defensive unit or two (which usually aren't even attacked) to put the road in as I build the next town.

Mid:
We have a total of 4 settlers. I am doing what I mentioned above to get some towns settled. Note that I am holding off the revolt so we have the troops to build these towns.

Late: In 670 AD, we revolt and pull 4 turns. The next player will get to rearrange things when we come out.

Towns are put in. See the picture below.

Notes:
We have no towns currently building settlers. I would switch a town or two when we come out of Anarchy. We need at least one more to replace Pamplona to have a buffer for the Wonder City.

I would also start building our Aquaducts - a town or two at a time to get them above size 6.

We CAN push forward even with only one army. Sometimes the number of enemy troops is heavy, but some protected workers (I like a pike, another unit, and a Cat for possible horse attacks) can still push forward. Make them groups of 3 workers and they only need two turns to get a road up which is quite possible to slip in between attacks.

Also on some turns you can just damage every nearby unit. They will often retreat to heal This is especially true if we meet a new civ and get a huge rush. Delaying a unit by a turn or two doing this can spread out the rush and make it managable. It can also be used if you want to concentrate on advancing the front ranks. I really like doing it and planting the town making the enemy retreat several squares to the new border to heal.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_AD700.jpg

The Save for 700 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-700AD.zip)

this doesn't look easy, but :goodjob: in putting down 4 more cities!

We need more cities especially in monarchy with less unit support. Also, agree on getting towns to pop 7 for more support. We need to have some dedicated settler pumps.

And, we are really up for more armies, so maybe we can get a few MGL's one fine day. I would use some to rush FP and HE. I am spotting a 1hp spear near the iron, tempted to use the elite spear to attack it :mischief:


got it, looking forward to this.


On a sidenote: I recently tried some AWE on this map setup with continents. Made a mistake to set at 60% water and got the 'too many cities' after I had 17 myself. :crazyeye: Needless to say, that I lost

It looks like another AI is SE of Pamplona. Different shade of blue border that Babylon uses, which I'd guess to be Germany or Maya.

A great example of expansion under pressure--to make it sound like freshman chemistry. :lol:

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-800AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
MM a little for growth

1. 710AD
we are a monarchy
as expected we pay a staggering 53gpt unit support

go 7-1 but no MGL, lose elite sword against 1hp spear

IT defeat 3 units with elite MDI, no leader

2. 720AD
attention shifts to Mummami where 6 bows hang around
go 3:1 on offense

IT 5:1 on defense at Kummami

3. 730AD
a new foe has appeared by boat, Sumeria, but they are a little backwars, have horses though

4. 740AD
more victories and no MGL

IT you know something isn't going well when a horse can beat our pike

5. 750AD
unbelievable, we get a MGL, of course we need to expand with 2 settlers now, so MDI army

6. 760AD
move to take out Pamplona and settle there instead

7. 770AD
Pamplona is gone, but Germany is met :(

8. 780AD
finally get an aqueduct running
defeat quite a few units including 3 Portugese horses

9. 790AD
defeat units as usual and move in position to found at least 1 town during my turnset

10. 800AD
found Samuha in the south, town will be under pressure but frees us to improve wonder city
capital is getting an aqueduct pretty soon, we have 2 settlers, left 1 unmoved so next player can decide where to settle

one settler is under the sword army in the west, army heals, once we get that babs city down, we can found tour city instead

worker pump is a settler pump now as we have enough workers we can afford currently with such high unit support

the west, settler underneath army
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr12800a.jpg

the south
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/gr12800b.jpg

I would prioritize a road to Samuha. We are likely to get a large influx of German and perhaps Sumerian units and we really need the flexibility to shuffle unit between towns.

Looks like the pressure has steamed down a little. I can't help but notice there is one pile of rubble for every city we have on the frontline. And I hope I get my 3GHz by the time we have rails ;)

Sumeria being backwards is surprising to me, but hey, we'll take it :)

NP up and myself on deck IIRC

Just wondering what the advantage was to have Worker Pump so far from Ugarit and skipping the river? Was it captured? Is it a concern for running into city limits?

It was about getting a cow in, I agree it is in an odd position but the cow makes up for it IMHO. Settling it by the river would have meant another town was needed to grab the cow, and we didn't have that luxury 40 turns ago.

I can't say for sure how I view that, but that gap could have been dangerous. I doubt the cow was that important as you would get it eventually anyway.

The cost of a 100 shields for an aqua seems a big price to pay and the more than 3 tile distance for help makes it risky imo.

I know things get done under duress that are not alway optimal, so it was not a ding. I was just wondering if there was a reason that I did not see. Thanks for the explantion.

the worker pump serves as a great settler pump now, so we can keep it below pop 6.

If we lose this game it all has to do with our starting position, no rivers, no food bonus. It's a miracle that we are expanding that well.

And by the way, the unit influx never ceased, it's just that we have cats and units to handle that, but don't underestimate the babs and the coming influx of Germans and Sumerians.

Portugese and Spanish have horses, we need to be careful about that.

Yup no river even and so much forest to chop with no food bonus. I would also wonder if the aggressive scouting was not a small factor. I really hate to look more than a few tiles out in a Pangea AW, until I have already been greeted by my close neighbors.

The only break you realy got was being one one end, rather than in the middle.

I also agree that the two new friends you have aquired will come with some numbers.

Good work, Rat. :goodjob:

I've got it.

Just wondering what the advantage was to have Worker Pump so far from Ugarit and skipping the river? Was it captured? Is it a concern for running into city limits?

I placed Worker Pump, but Beorn has basically given my reasons. :thanx: I wanted the town to have access to all the good tiles immediately, not after another foundation or a cultural expansion. The harder the game, the more important it is to think in these terms, I find.

The cost of an aqueduct doesn't concern me much, because in a game on this semi-insane scale a size-six worker and settler pump will be useful forever, essentially. There's still room for a city at the mouth of the river, with enough tiles to itself to reach size seven.

Ankuwa was founded very soon after Worker Pump, so WP was never really dangerously isolated.

the worker pump serves as a great settler pump now, so we can keep it below pop 6.

If we lose this game it all has to do with our starting position, no rivers, no food bonus. It's a miracle that we are expanding that well.

And by the way, the unit influx never ceased, it's just that we have cats and units to handle that, but don't underestimate the babs and the coming influx of Germans and Sumerians.

Portugese and Spanish have horses, we need to be careful about that.

We expanded because there is only a single front. It doesn't seem a miracle to me. The land shape is at least as important as the resources at the start.

Besides, at least we got Grasslands unlike the first start I rolled up which was no rivers and all plains. :lol:

900 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-900AD.SAV)

800 (0): I'm glad to see we have a single scientist assigned. It's incredible what the GLib can not produce sometimes.

I can't imagine our using a Leader for the HE when we're so short of armies, so I switch Hunt Season to the HE, due in fourteen turns.


810 (1): I pull back our army/settler team next to Sippar, to better prepare this attack. An army alone in a newly founded town has very little flexibility.

I spend ten wasted minutes musing on the tactical situation around Matalya, when it turns out that the archer threatening the town is our own. :rolleyes: The man responsible for this game's colour palette should be tarred and feathered.

We strike down two Japanese spearmen, a Spanish horseman, and a Bab spearman in the southeast, and a Bab spearman in the southwest (5-0).

I leave a stack of four Bowmen unbombarded so that they'll assault Kummanni, and it works well when three attack and die (8-0).

A Spanish archer cuts down our asterisked swordsman in the SE (8-1). I saw this attack, but had to take a chance to get the road to Samuha started.

Hattusas aqueduct --> library.

The Babylonians are building KT. Well, we haven't seen horsemen from them so we may not see knights.


820 (2): We account for a Spanish archer and a Portuguese horseman in the SE (10-1).

Not bombarding the Babs around Kummanni again works well, as five Bowmen attack and perish (15-1).


830 (3): We get Samuha connected to our road network.

We extirpate two Bab spearmen around Kummanni, and three Japanese swordsmen and two German archers in the SE (22-1).

We move our sword army, six MDI, seven cats, and a settler next to Sippar. I'm not big on one-army offensives. ;)

With our SoD waiting to attack the town, several Bab units pass through Sippar. I never get tired of seeing that. :lol:


840 (4): We raze Sippar, held by two spearmen and two redlined Bowmen just moved in (26-1). We gain two slaves.

We cut down another two Bab Bowmen, and a spearman, in the SW (29-1).

We shoot down two Port. archers landed on the marsh tile E of Tyrana (31-1).

In the SE we carve up a Japanese swordsman, a Japanese spearman, and a Port. archer (34-1).

The MDI which razed Sippar is slaughtered in its exposed position (34-2).

Four Spanish horsemen use the neutral road to attack Samuha. One dies, two retreat, and one implausibly defeats an elite pike fortified behind walls (35-3).

The first enemy MDI appear--Germany's.

Alacacuk library --> aqueduct.


850 (5): We liquidate three Bowmen and two Bab spearmen in fighting around the ruins of Sippar (40-3).

In the SE we crush four Spanish horsemen and a Spanish spearman (45-3).


860 (6): We mop up another six Bab units, three Bowmen and three spearmen, in the Sippar area (51-3).

In the SE we account for two Port. horsemen and a German MDI (54-3).

Hubishna library --> aqueduct.

The Babs build Sun Tzu--so to look on the bright side, it's close.


870 (7): We batter a Port. horseman/archer pair landed next to Tyrana (56-3).

We finally clear the ruins of Sippar for our settler, smiting another three Bowmen but losing an MDI (59-4).

In the SE we destroy two Japanese swordsmen and a Port. spearman (62-4).

The Great Library yields Monotheism.

The Koreans, so far unknown to us, beat the Babs to Knights Templar.


880 (8): In the SE we liquidate a Sumerian swordsman, an Enk, a Japanese spearman, a Port. spearman, a German MDI, and a German pikeman (68-4). In the process we generate Suppiluliumas, our first GL in twenty-three elite victories this round. He immediately forms an MDI army.

We get Yalburt founded on the ruins of Sippar.

The Sumerians are present in force now--eleven units that we can see--but for the moment they're attacking the Arabs.


890 (9): In the SE we wipe out five German MDI, and generate the GL Mutawallis, as our luck begins to even out (73-4). I'll use him for the Pentagon.

In the SW we execute a Bab spearman and a German archer/warrior team (76-4).


900 (10): We expunge a Sumerian archer and a Port. horseman landed in the Tyrana area (78-4).

Mutawallis rushes the Pentagon in Ugarit, where the eventual cultural expansion will fill a gap.

We fell three more Bowmen around Kummanni (81-4).

In the SE we rout a German MDI, a German archer, a Port. horseman, and a Japanese swordsman (85-4)

Twenty-seven elite victories this round, four of them defensive, produced two Great Leaders.

We'll complete the Pentagon when we press Enter, the Heroic Epic in three turns, and the Forbidden Palace in about ten. We're getting some infrastructure built in our core. So we're making progress of a sort, even if it isn't too obvious on the map.

Next turn the workers on the plains tile SW of Kummanni will be able to build a road, and we'll have proper lateral communications in the area. After that we should be able to advance on Mari and raze it, though not until the sword army gets an added MDI.

Worker Pump (Almost :D) Only is functioning well as a five-turn settler factory, but it needs constant attention, especially if Karatepe is to get as many good tiles as possible.

There were three AI landings on the marsh tile E of Tyrana during my round, and another nearby. So we need to keep more than the minimum garrison in the area, including at least one MDI.

The Bab galley off our west coast is a new development, so I don't know what it might do.

We have three settlers at the front to take advantage of opportunities--one in Kummanni, one near Karhuyuk, and one in Samuha.

The Sumerians have taken the Arab city they were hammering away at, so they'll probably start attacking us in earnest now.

We need to get a second unit into Wonder City as soon as is practical, so that we can send the specialist there back to real work.

One at a time:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12-900AD.JPG

85-4 :wow:

I think bab spearmen astound me more than units getting away from the fight, to be honest. "Let's build units without defensive bombard at the same cost - and without any real attacking capacities"

I take it the ticket is now to march weswards towards Sun Tzu. Not feeling 100% tonight, will look into it tomorrow. Do you think we can pull a few MDI's from the fields into the armies? Their attack would go from 5.25 to 7.25, which is not to be overlooked.

Great work NP. 2 MGL are what we deserve for a long time. With 4 unit armies, we will be much safer. We could currently afford 5 armies, but if we expand, this should go up.
But, I would be very careful about Sumer coming in numbers. They certainly are still GA fuelled since they fought the Arabs and EW are dirt cheap units. They do have iron, but are luckily still backwards.
But, they have a huge number of cities (24 that is :eek: ), so I'd say they are a huge threat.

I would slowly expand east and trying to hold the southern lines. We need to capture Sun Tzu for sure, we are lucky that Babs built it. I would also put 3 units into wonder city for MP duty (built cheap pikes for that).

Actually I would like us to not connect salt later on so we can profit from cheap pikes rather than the very expensive muskets. We do however need horses as knight armies are really good for us.

The only problem with going after Babylon first is that we know they don't have horses. I would be more inclined to wait on Babylon and go after a civ that does have horses. As soon as we have the horses we switch to get Sun Tzu.

I just think the horses are going to be higher priority that even Sun Tzu nice though that is.

Have we seen any Horses yet?

Do you think we can pull a few MDI's from the fields into the armies?

Yes, we have just enough. There's an asterisked MDI near Samuha which should go into one of the armies there. The other two armies can receive veteran MDI.

To answer Greebley's question, we haven't seen horses.

I agree with Greebley that to concentrate on the Babs, when they do have the Great Wall and don't have horses, would be unrewarding. We should raze and replace Mari to round off our position in the southwest, but after that our priority should be to find horses, even if it means sending an army off into the fog on a pure reconnaissance mission.

Didn't notice they had TGW, so that's another weight against going for them. Sounds good, to the SE and the arabic horses we go, hopefully.

>>> The save on turn 8, no move done yet <<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_AD980.zip)

Pre-Turn:
Even out a few odd shields on the MM front

IT
Looks like the babs galley was a settler pair, it's headed westwards to the island.
No action.

T1.
Pestkilling in the E, making way for the siege on Mari in the W [4-0]
Pentagon finishes in Ugarit, I load a MDI in the sword army and the wounded MDI one
Venture a spear 1 tile further east for exploration,

IT
... but he finds a german MDI stack [5-1]
The sumerians send 14 gifts, a catapult amidst them, the germans 12 and the babs half a dozen. Fun ahead.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1923/gr105sh.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr105sh.jpg)

T2.
FYI, it seems that loading a unit into an army counts as a movement: I loaded a MDI into our injured army at Samura last turn and the army hasn't healed.
The rest of the greetings goes according to plan [12-1]

IT
Oh my, Sumeria just went crazy on units

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6858/gr111li.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr111li.jpg)

The 2 other stacks also have catapults and horsemen in them. Catapults are yummy, but if they care to bring 5+ along to the front, they're big. Way big. And knights are coming soon. :hmm:
There's a 4th force out of sight in the babs' borders, which is comparable in size.
Finally, the babs' boat drop a single bowman by Ugarit,

T3.
... fortunately, they received the proper welcoming rites in the hands of veteran maces.
So did everyone else, for that matter. [23-1]
Mace army 1, still at 3 men, is redlined by a 2/3 german mace. Back to the barracks - which I cash rush in Samuha for that purpose.

The Sum point stack is down to 4 units, 1 cat.

IT
Sums keep pushing, I sure hope this is a one-time big bang of units.

T4.
Everything goes well in the east, the germans are mostly thwarted [28-1]
We manage to capture the bulk of the Sum pults, which is well worth the eArcher loss to a 2/3 EW IMO [36-2]

IT
Yet more sumerians approach

T5.
The east goes picture perfect, the germans are stalled and the first foot division heads W-NW for the Sum invasion.[41-2]
This turn the west troops are dedicated to bowmen chasing, bombing and stalling [48-2]
Swords army healing on place for a turn rather than going after a bowmen and an EW.

T6.
Stalling and healing in the east [51-2]
Crush a few odd japs and babs in the west[58-2]
I send the first mace division after Mari for, at least, a bit of pillage and distraction. First time I have some units unmoved in the W, so I send them with a settler to, hopefully, follow the 1st army to a siege on Mari.

So far, there are about 4 stacks of Sum troops left, each being 5-8 EW and as many swords.

T7.
Keep trimming the Sum forces, lose a vMace on a 2/5 sword though [71-3]
The Army-on-Mari plan dies in the egg for now, there's too many stacks blocking the way to get through. I guess they like the armies' free bombard on passing units.

IT
The germans decide they attack a fortified vPike on a hill with injured maces - and take it out [73-4]

The Sums recall their troops. Most of them anyways. Someone else is getting the :whipped:

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4852/gr136zz.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr136zz.jpg)

T8.
Time to hold on and reflect about it.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4084/gr125gk.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gr125gk.jpg)

This is turn 8, and the beginning of it. No unit has been moved at all. I know this is really unorthodox, but the sumerians have visibly just started another war and, considering the power charts, we need to take advantage of that fact one way or another.

I followed NP's advice of filling up armies, which did good on defense, but didn't allow for much expansive pushing. We simply got nailed by the sumerian army. Every core city, or just about, is making Maces to that effect. FP is due in a turn, micro will need a good re-visiting.

But the major point of this stopping is: what do we do with the sumerians? do we send an army to follow them into their territory to pillage and raze? Do we grab a few dozen tiles more agressively while the pressure is relieved?

With three armies and without the Sums harrassing us, there's no reason why the expansion shouldn't continue as it did during the 2 previous sets. I'm sorry I couldn't take the fight into germany, troops were needed to hold Sumer off. But this changes for the next few turns.

Hopefully it isn't a phony AI war and they do remain at home for a few turns. How involved we wish to go into this is your call, guys, but I certainly like the idea of sending our 1 Mace 3 swords army to pillage and raze.

I would let the Sumerians go and we should still try to look for horses. Understandable that anyone getting the first rush of a Civs units (not to mention 2) is unlikely to make progrress.

Since it is the weekend, I put Gozpel up next. Then you can go Markh.

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared - Just played.
markh - On Deck
Gozpel - Up

Fine work against the Sumerians, Beorn. :thumbsup: They brought a ridiculous number of units for monarch, but I suppose it's the result of the huge map. Our Leader luck seems to have reverted to wretched, even with the HE. :(

Since it is the weekend, I put Gozpel up next. Then you can go Markh.

Oops, Gozpel has withdrawn from the game on grounds of computer inadequacy, at least for the moment. So Mark, go ahead.

I'd say we try and get rid of Mari and then expand towards South, where Spain and their horses should be (hopefully). I would only send an army out once we have 5 or more of them. This game is horrible in terms of MGL's.

And, Beorn, great kill ratio, fine job in keeping those hordes at bay (EW are 10 shields only and with that many units, their research is stalled, no wonder)

Thanks guys, but I only did my duty :salute: ;)

I must have had around 20 elite victories, so you're well overdue for a MGL, Markh. HE is online, go get 'em :hammer:

I got it. I will play either this evening or tomorrow morining.

BTW, we should immediately return to single-scientist research on Engineering. We really have no idea when we'll get Engineering (or anything else) from the GLib in this unusual situation, and it's a very cheap precaution.

agree with NP, please employ a scientist, cost us 2gpt but we might benefit from that.

By the way, the Sumer units moving away doeesn't mean their are figthing a war, the AI often does :smoke: moves due to a certain predesigned path being blocked

Greebley if you need someone down the road, I would play. Is this using 600 or something like that for cost factor? I used 650 once and it really kills techs on a 250 map with max civs on contients.

I missed Gozpel's messge.

Vmxa, if you wanted to play, you could play in Gozpels spot. It is up to you. The only requirement would be some experience in AW - Specifically, the basics on how to fight and keep losses down.

So I don't need you but if you want to join you would be welcome.

I don't know about 70's-3, like Beorn pulled off, but I like AW. Basically I try to use amries and bombardment as much as I can. Fast movers to pick off damaged strays and not leave any units exposed.

I don't trust single defenders to cover units and will try to cover with more than one or an army. I tend to not short rush, unless it is an emergency. By short rush, I mean cheap build and escalate up to the finally build. As opposed to plain rushing or whipping. I also do not whip much in AW.

I have been reading the post, but not loading the save, so now I will load them them and pay closer attention.

For those that prefer to play on the weekend, you can put me elsewhere as time is not an issue for me.

Re: the pre-disposed path of the Sums, if they went for Dyes it might be possible a unit is over there. If it's the only thing keeping them from marching onto us, I say let's keep 2-3 pikes fortified over there.

If there's nothing on the dyes, better luck next time, we'll have to guess something else out.

Sorry, I did not read the thread before playing, so no scientist employed.

T1) 980AD : we kill 1 bab spear, 4 bowmen
1 Port horseman (6-0)

IBT : the Sumerians are coming back, so no other war I think.
we lose two pikes on defense, 1 Jap sword suicides against one pike (7-2)
Forbidden Palace is complete

T2) 990AD : we kill a Port horse, archer and a spear
3 bowmen and 1 spear
1 Sum sword, 1 archer and 2 EWs
lose an archer, an MDI (18-4)

IBT : lose a pike on defense (18-5)
we learn chivalry from the GLib

T3) 1000AD : we kill 6 bab spears, 3 bowmen
3 EWs, 1 sword
1 German pike, 1 MDI
3 Jap swords
lose an archer (36-6)

Where are the leaders ?

IBT : kill 2 units on defense and lose an archer and an MDI (38-8)
Sumeria enters with 7 EWS and 8 swords our territory
7 bowmen are at Yalburt

T4) 1010AD : our cats wound almost almost all Sumerian and Babylonian unit, hopefully the AI keeps being dumb and retreats all wounded units
we kill 1 Jap sword
1 German pike
5 EWs
2 Bowmen
lose an MDI (47-9)

IBT : this is such a crap. an exposed eSword generates a leader and is killed by another Sum sword. Thank you RNG. :gripe:
defense 1-1 (48-10)
Portugal lands an archer at Worker Pump

T5) 1020AD : we kill 1 Port archer
5 Sum swords, 4 EWs
1 Bab spear, 1 bowman
lose 2 MDIs (60-12)

IBT : a Jap horse redlines our elite pike in Spite and and a sword takes it. Didn't see the horse coming (60-13) :mad:
It is the second during my sets that I lose Spite. What a shame.
The Russians have been destroyed

T6) 1030AD : we kill a bab spear
2 EWs, 3 swords
1 Port horse, 2 spears, 1 archer
1 Jap spear (71-12)

IBT : Portugal drops 2 horses at Worker Pump

T7) 1040AD : retake Spite
we kill 2 Jap spears, 4 Jap swords
2 Sum swords
5 Port horses
1 Spanish spear
2 bowmen
lose an MDI (87-13)

IBT : a reg German MDI attacking Samuha gets damaged by a catapult, but still redlines our healthy MDI army fortified in that town. What is this ? :confused:

T8) 1050AD : we kill a Jap spear, 1 sword
1 Port archer
2 bab spears, 5 bowmen (97-13)

I stop here to even out. We are at turn 220 now. The area around Kummani is a little more quiet now. The big stacks of Sumeria are almost killed. At Samuha it is getting more tense now. Germany sends MDI-pike combos.
No chance to expand. It was just holding the lines for me. There are two Port galleys in our NW. They are empty and are going back, but there is a bab galley which cannot decide where to go. It is really ridiculous that I cannot get any leaders. So many elite victories and nothing. We desperately need two more armies to get a chance to advance.
During my set Hammi sent a horse, so maybe he has some or bought them. Portugal seems to lack iron as they just send horses and archers. Germany seems to lack horses as they send pikes and MDIs which is annoying enough.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_AD1050.SAV

It is really ridiculous that I cannot get any leaders. So many elite victories and nothing. We desperately need two more armies to get a chance to advance.Indeed, we're way way under our 1/12 victory rate.
The Russians have been destroyedOne sci civ out of the way, good thing for the tech rate.

If the Sums are dried out, we may just have the bit of luck we need to go on and take Mari+the other Sum city. Getting out of that forest where they hide bowmen would make for an easier clay pigeon shooting. If the catapults can handle the stalling, I think sending 2 armies over for a blitz could be worth it. Amass pikes, let them attack if they can and take out their city by the backdoor.

My .05 on vmxa is that he's not out of his league opening this save ;)

I think next turn we can take out all remaining Sumerian and Babylonian units at Yalburt and Kummani. All units in the Sumerian stack you can see in the pic below the EW should be redlined. Then it should be possible to go for Mari. Samuha will get hotter as the Germans are coming there and the appearance of Portuguese units increased also.

we have to take the risk and expand. If we don't expand and fond horses, we will evenutally get overrun. Golden rule of AW games. So, next player (Greebley?) needs to take some calculated risk.

Glad you can join us. You sound experience enough. Truth be known, I don't tend to get 70-3 either. I don't play defensively enough for that.

I have some time to play now so I will swap with you Vxma.

Roster:
Greebley - Up
ThERat
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh - Just Played
[Edit copy-n-paste]Vxma - On Deck

Sounds good to me.

Markh mentioned not having a lone scientist running. I think that is fine for this game at this point. You would need over 50bpt to crack 50 turn pace at 2600 beakers for a tech (Eng). Once you obsolete the GLB, then you could go lone scientist. Else you give up 100 gold for a tech you can expect to get from the GLB in about the same time frame.

The foreign advisor says the Sumerians have about the same size army as you. Never mind anyone else. Staggering numbers indeed.

Same army strenght but a most likely stunning number of defenders ... that might mean 1.5 + times the army size, at the very least.

And 100 SG's, :hatsoff:

Markh mentioned not having a lone scientist running. I think that is fine for this game at this point. You would need over 50bpt to crack 50 turn pace at 2600 beakers for a tech (Eng). Once you obsolete the GLB, then you could go lone scientist. Else you give up 100 gold for a tech you can expect to get from the GLB in about the same time frame.

Well, we're twenty-four turns away from Engineering even though we haven't done one-nerd research for the last fifteen turns. So if the GLib doesn't give us Engineering in the next nine turns, we'll know that we should have stuck with the insurance policy.

I've always been influenced by the fact that in the first SG I played, we had the GLib and knew that one of our contacts already had Republic, so we didn't even min-research it. Forty turns later, we still didn't have it.

we have to take the risk and expand. If we don't expand and fond horses, we will evenutally get overrun. Golden rule of AW games. So, next player (Greebley?) needs to take some calculated risk.

Problem with that was that we did not have any room and no available troops to expand. At Kummani and Yalburt the Sumerians and Babylonians came in numbers that I hardly could repell them. If the cats would have not hit that well they possibly would have overrun us there. I left Karatepe open and the Sumerian units seemed to go for that city. They did not attack Kummani, but moved straight North. In the East we did not have enough units to have a chance to raze a city and plant a new one. We need two armies that can go and raze some cities. The current armies were fully involved killing units advancing to us.

Well, we're twenty-four turns away from Engineering even though we haven't done one-nerd research for the last fifteen turns. So if the GLib doesn't give us Engineering in the next nine turns, we'll know that we should have stuck with the insurance policy.


Yes if you had 24 turns in, that is different. I was talking about from scratch. It could be that even 50 turns would be worth it, I am not sure. I am guessing that a pangea will find most civs getting lots of contacts about now, except for the island guys.

You already know 7 civs and one has eng, so I would think 50 turns is enough. Nine no, that is a very long shot for sure. Germany has all our techs and could find someone to trade, but who knows.

I started but didn't finish. I hope to finish tonight.

Preturn: Science on. Start a Galley - to find the shape of the land and look for horses. We need only one because the other direction is known up to a new civ's border that I don't want to meet right now.

Other minor tweeks.

IBT: We lose an exposed Archer.

1060 AD: Kill a big stack of Sumerians, some Germans and a few Babylonians. Only Germany has any size force now.

I am going to try to move out at least some of the Armies. Not sure if I will raze to expand or to explore.

IBT: No attacks

1070 AD: Kill more units. Attack a Sumerian city.If I can kill it we can lay down a town.

1080 AD: Anjar is Razed. Lining up attacks on the two Babylonian towns as well.

1090 AD:
Finally get a leader = Army
A decent sized Sumerian stack is coming. Nothing to fearsome though. I continue to advance despite adversity.

Army:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_AD1090.jpg

1100 AD:
Bombard and Raze Mari and immediately settle Malice near Spite.
We get another leader = Army. We have 5 now.


1110 AD: Aden is Razed. An Army can go pretty far this turn and will be sent to slwo the germans. Germans are showing up with Knights. It would be nice to knock out their Horses or Iron. They may be trading for one so pillaging to disconnect their capitol would stop them.

A picture of the current position:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_AD1110.jpg


1120 AD: We get yet another Leader. I find I can't (yet) make an Army but we will be building more towns soon. Our leader dry spot has been balanced out IMO. I am getting a decent number of victories but it is less than 12 per turn by a good bit.

Breaking new report: Horses have been spotted. Some Armies will start converging on this spot. It is not much farther with the current cities razed.

I plan to wait on filling the 6th Army with knights

1130 AD: We found another Town, Kulteppe(I forgot to note then name - it could have been Alisar) and now have enough for a 6th Army to save for Knights.
Carchimesh is Razed.

1140 AD: We have a run of Babylonians. They have lots of units and our Armies in the area have been busy, so there is a bunch of mop up that needs to be done. They are now inside our outer borders of the new towns.

1150 AD: I plant one more town (Alisar)

We are in a slightly delicate position and only 1 turn from the Horses. I will play one turn extra. You can feel free to play 9 or 10.

1160 AD: Tarsus is built on top of the Horse and we can now build Knights!
I also build Aleppo.

Notes:
To get the Horses sooner I pushed a little. I feel we have adequate defense in our towns but will need to pause to consolidate our hold and clear out enemies now in our lands. One thing you can do is injure units so the retreat out of our lands. Don't feel you need to kill them all right away. My advice is to injure units a single point while also lowering one stack to 1-2 hp so you can attack it. Alternatively, the pikemen can absorb the attacks of uninjured swords if the town is walled.

Get some Pikes into Tarsus. The AI can attack that city right away. We also want to prioritize taking out the Sumerian city.

We are building some of our UU so we can start our golden age.

We should have 3 knights in 5 turns which can go into the Army for our first knight army.

I did build some Markets and started some more.. We haven't built the Libraries yet. When we get theology we should start some. I would have at least 1 preferably 2 markets building at any time (more is fine as well).

I would go on the offensive when we can. This is a good time while several of the AI still have Spear guarding their cities (those without Iron). Using the armies for Razing and using the normal units to defend works pretty well though stacks of MDI and Cats is also viable.

Two Final Pictures:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_AD1160a.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR12_AD1160b.jpg

The 1160 AD Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GR12_AD1160.zip)

I take it that the GLB did yield Eng, since you are 5 turns into Invention.

Finally some leaders and very good news about horses.:banana:
GA is coming.

yes, vmxa, please do make sure we get our UU so we can get a GA which would be a huge boost at this moment.

Anyway, great progress Greebley :goodjob:

Yes, a brilliant round. :thumbsup:

Awesome ! :thumbsup:

GA, leaders, knight army ... looks like the RNG finally gave up to your strongarming it ;)

Agreed on markets first; a few libraries in good gold cities would be nice before the second half of the GA.

Yep. I think if we had the lone scientist all the time we would have gotten it a turn earlier or something like that.

I was very pleased that the horses were so close.

It took me a lot of time to play this. Not only were the AI turns long on my clunker, but when there is so many AI units it takes time to figure out what moves are safe (for example if I want to expose a Cat to bombard an AI, I have to first verify that I have a Pike to cover, that I can knock down any adjacent enemies stacks down enough so the AI won't attack, etc as well as considering where the unit will be needed the next turn.

I suggest having something to do for AI turns. I was reading the Complete Calvin and Hobbs in mine. (I was up to the one where Calvin's dad was explaining to Calvin that babies came from Sears with assembly instructions but Calvin was a K-mart Special).

Also feel free to play either 5 or 10 turns and take up to 4 days to play. Beyond 4 days, it gets long between turns (going over a bit is ok, but aim for no more than 4 days play time). You can play some other number as well.

Note that it may not take 4 days yet, but things will slow more as we go on.

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played (swap)
ThERat - On Deck
Northern Pike
Beorn-eL-Feared
markh
Vxma - Up

Ok, you want the GA now. Yup it does require looking for any place that something can jump on you before venturing out. Still even with a lot of effort it is not hard to miss something. There are so many attacking points.

I got in a couple of turns last night and will get back to it after I get back in about 2 hrs. I just wanted to see if I cold get some feedback on two issues in the mean time,

1- galley.

I am thinking I do not want to see it go on. I have already run into the Iroq and I see another new border, at least I think it is new. Do we really want more troops coming now?

Maybe it does not matter, if we expect them to met us soon anyway, then we may as well see more of the land, but I figure scouting on a map like this is not wise, so what say anyone else?

I would rather it was home and maybe it could sink a redlined ship once in awhile.

2- leader.
I got one pretty quick and we need anthoer town to use it for an army, if my count is correct. I am now inclined to burn it for something else. I do not see a new town in the next 3 or 4 turns and hate to have elites fight with a leader in the bank.

I was thinking of looking for a city to rush a market or a town to rush an aqua. The other choice is to rush a structure that can be switched to a knight.

The GA was triggered so a market in one of the bigger places could yield some gold and we would not have to build it later. An aqua lets us get a city out of a town. A knight could let us kill some of these redline units that get to go heal now.

BTW I see Germany now has Theo, so we will gain that on the IBT.
I do not have the game up right now, so I am not sure which of the three ideas is the most useful at this time.

I was thinking that the UU could function as a redline spear/bowman/horse killer, but even a redline one is not a lock for an attack 2 unit. So I am starting to think I would rather not keep building them in a bunch of places.

Unless we are going to upgrade them to get more kights online sooner. We are starting to pile up cash, so that would seem like a good place to use some of it.

my opinion:

1. do not scout, we do not need any more enemies for now. recall the galley

2. rush markets if we do not have any other build

3. do not build the UU, it was good for the GA but it will be a lousy unit costing us more support. I rather have less and better units

That is the way I saw it, but wanted to see how others felt.

1. do not scout, we do not need any more enemies for now. recall the galley

I agree.

2. rush markets if we do not have any other build

An army would still be far more useful than anything else we could get from the GL, and if we only have to found one junk city to be eligible for another army, I'd do that.

It's true of course that marketplaces would be helpful during our GA. But otherwise, this is a textbook case of a situation in which they aren't much use, since IIRC we have only one luxury, and no powerful commerce cities. So wherever the choice between a marketplace and an aqueduct occurs, I would favour the latter.

3. do not build the UU, it was good for the GA but it will be a lousy unit costing us more support. I rather have less and better units
I agree.

Can we deduce anything from the fact (as reported by Greebley) that the game is slowing down badly? The tech position, and the number of enemies we know, haven't changed much recently.

An army would still be far more useful than anything else we could get from the GL, and if we only have to found one junk city to be eligible for another army, I'd do that.

It's true of course that marketplaces would be helpful during our GA. But otherwise, this is a textbook case of a situation in which they aren't much use, since IIRC we have only one luxury, and no powerful commerce cities. So wherever the choice between a marketplace and an aqueduct occurs, I would favour the latter.


If you are saying we should make a junk city and abandon it after creating an army, that may be alright. I doubt that we can make a town and hold it right now, but will be able to soon.

I don't see any rush to take the chance or waste a settler as we cannot fill an army right now anyway. It was 4 turns before I got the one waiting filled.

We will need 5 towns to get to an additional army and that is not going to happen real soon, so a delay of a few turns seems reasonable.

I burnt off two leaders, that is all I am going to do. The next one will wait for the town. We do not have that many elite attackers now. It was the need to use the elite attackers that drove the whole thing as we had so very few MDI's available with most being in the armies.

I made one market and the other was a knight. Some of the answer to the other question is that the AI is fighting each other to some degree. I have seen Henry Vs Hawatha and Bismark Vs the Sumerians.

For the galley, the idea was that if we saw a new border we would stop. You are correct on not meeting new civs. I would abandon it now that it has explored.

I should have made that clearer.

I agree.
Can we deduce anything from the fact (as reported by Greebley) that the game is slowing down badly? The tech position, and the number of enemies we know, haven't changed much recently.

The thing that effects it most appears to be the connectivity of roads and (later) the connectivity of rails. It probably means the AI's are becoming interconnected and the road network spans the continent.

It might be an indication that more AI are meeting one another, but I am not sure on that.

The thing that effects it most appears to be the connectivity of roads and (later) the connectivity of rails.

Yes, that's plausible. I knew rails had this effect, but not roads.

harbors slow these kind of maps down as well. Later on in the game, whenever you raze a city with a harbor, it will take ages...even pillaging can be a pain..

Harbors are brutal on 250 maps with lots of water. Even now the army cuts a road and it takes a few secodns for the animation to finish.

Anyway here is the 1250AD save. I think that is where I am to stop. Logs coming. I can say I played it tightly as I did not want to risk making a mess in my first turn (leave that for later). Note sure how you name them as some have AD before and others after the date.

Whoops I guess I need to figure out how to get it uploaded, since it is over 500k.

Hum, the tool told me each time I needed to make it lower case. I finally look at the FTP site and it was uploaded each time. I was able to download it so try it and let me know if I got it.

It went to UPLOAD12, I had no control over that part with the tool provided.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/gr12_ad1250.zip

you need to upload the file to the upload11 folder. Please do so even if you can't figure to provide the link here. I can always find the file on the folder if you tell me the name of the file or pm the file to me

a link would look like this

[URL=http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/nameofthesave.SAV]save[/URL ]

I made this log as I went along. Not from memory.

Pre:
Take a tour to see if I can keep from making a fool of myself.

Tarsus and Aleppo are in a tight spot with so many units around them and the army they each have are each damaged.

Not too sure about making the settler in Ugarit. With the GA it could make some troops and Worker Pump also has a barracks. I am not so sure we need another settler right now with so many to defend against.

Karatepe is also making a settler and starving with a taxman. Not sure about the reason for starving it as it can be size 6 with no issues.

Mind you not saying any of this is wrong, only I am not sure I understand it. Two less pop to work tiles during the GA, at least Work Pump will recover quickly. The other two will not.

31 units and 3 ships, but the ones that worry me are around Tarsus and Aleppo. Tarsus only has the 12hp army. I am tempted to move the other army into it to ensure its survival. The lost of Aleppo is not as big as the loss of the horses and the armies.

Ankuwa had an archer to move, but it needs it for MP and it can get nowhere useful this turn anyway.

Hit then enter key.

IBT:
Started well 5-1 and then two straight pikes die at Kultepe to swords. One horses kills the MDI exposed at Samuha and one horse retreated. Finally tally was 6-3-1 with one pike going elite. The horse was regular no less. [6-3]

1170AD:
Ankuwa: finished UU, starts a knight as we have several UU's underway.
Samuha cats redline the horse and a pike, but cannot attack them with one move units and 4 german MDI on the next tile. Retreat the eMDI to town.

Move the two units (MDI/pike) guarding the road to Samuha as they are both yellow and are facing 4 MDI. Consider moving units out of the town to the road, but Henry was able to hit them from someplace that I could not see. They may be exposed to any number of horse and German Knights. Will wait to see what else I can do.

Yalburt: fired 7 cats and a treb to get 3 hp off of two bowman. E-MDI kills bowman and gets a leader. I do not know how many towns were are short for another army. I usually rename all towns to have Letter for my civ appending a number. Captured get a letter for that civ and a number. This way on AW domination/conquest I always know the number of towns I have.

Ok we have 27 if I counted correctly, so one more needed.

Emar: workers finish task. I am not sure what it was, I guess it was jungle clearing with that many. I use two to mine the tile as GA coming and send the rest to a jungle tile.

Karatepe: One other value of using Hnnnn for names is it is easy to type them in logs. I moved the damaged MDI into town so I can use the one in town.

Hope you meant the GA bit as I used some cats from Kummanni to redline a spear near Malice and the new UU to kill it and we trigger the GA. (2-0)

Ugarit: I switch it from settler to pike we need quite a few more at the front and I really hate to make settlers during a GA. May come back with a settler next though.

Yalbert: 2nd Sword kill bowman. (3-0)

Lots of cats in Samuha, I would like to move a few to Tarsus. Name mace army to MDI-4th for easier location and identification. Well keep some of the UU builds to kill of these redline units, instead of using armies, when unit next to town.

Redline archer 4th kills it (4-0).

Aleppo: switch pike to walls. 6 workers on forest had to be moved as I could not be sure they were out of reach. Move to forest near Kultepe as it cannot be reached. Moved empty army towards knights so it can be filled and ensure it is out of reach. Also moved settler back a town. What can I say I do not know what exactly to expect, so why risk it.

Alisar: Named army MDI-5th and it kills a spear (Bab) (5-0).

4th kills Nippon spear (6-0).
1st Mace kills Nippon sword (7-0).
2nd Sword kills Bab bow (8-0). [14-3]
2nd Mace pillage lux on to next lux, but needs to get off of the hills to cover ground and stay away from towns to prevent bombardment and accidental attacks. Do not want to get yellowed way out here.

Too many units about that can pillage us and no attackers to do anything about them right now. Need more UU's and Knights.

IBT:
only two attackers (2-0) [16-3]. See Iroq archher attacked by someone near the galley.

1180AD:
Kummani cats suck going 1 for 5 on a bow. I see we had not known Hawatha, so I declare. They do not know Chiv. Move Galley and see another border, but with the crappy color scheme I have no idea who it is. It does seem to be a new civ to us though. You sure the galley is a good idea on this map? I would not think we want to see everyone coming quite this early and the contacts will not do much for our research right now.

Cats are streaky right now, 3 hit, then 5 miss.

Aleppo: 4th kills redline sword and enter town as 6 Sumerians are at the door. I probably should have moved in and forted it, oh soon some fast movers please. (1-0)

5th gets poor rng, but kill bow (2-0).
2nd Sword kills bow (3-0).
UU kill redline spear (4-0).
eMDI kills redline spear (5-0) cover with pike, just in case. Yeah no leader was possible, but I wanted to take out as many reds as I can.
*MDI One kills one of the bows in the stack next to Yalburt (6-0) [22-3].
Rushed market with leader in Tyrana.

IBT:
Army at Tarsus and Aleppo both kill one sword and get yellow, bad RNG there (2-0).
Sumerians are crazy. They send many units in attack position back to some place as if they have a war to fight, but send in others? [24-3]

Theo comes in.

1190AD:
Cats do poorly in Malatya and Sumuha, need all of them to redline 4 units. eSword kills redline pike and makes leader (1-0).
Panic and rush the walls in Tarsus and Aleppo for 60 each.
MDI at Malatya kills redline spear (2-0).
Send leader to rush a market in Malatya to switch to Knight. There is no place to send the leader and use it this turn and I have several elites to use and I could stand a knight at this end.
Malatya can't grow until we give it space and water, so it does not need an aqua or a market right now.

One knight into 6th and kill horse by Kummanni, eMDI kills bow there (4-0).
Rush walls in Alisar for 40. We have 22 Bab units in the area and only 1 pike, 1 mdi and a damaged army there.
eMDI kills red spear (5-0) cover with pike.
2 more eMID wins (7-0).
Upgrade the UU's we now have 6 knights and the army will be filled next turn. [31-3]

IBT:
I see that Iroq are fighting Henry. It looks like the reason the Sumerians pulled some troops back is that they are fighting the Germans. Germany sent the knight that was next to Aleppo back, even though I failed to ding it with any of the cats last turn.

7 attacks, one killed a covering pike on a hill. The MDI there was also atacked, but killed an MDI and retreated a horse. The army at Tarsus was nearly killed by swords.

(6-1-1) [37-4]

1200AD:
6th kills three near Kummanni (3-0). 4th kills redlined horse (4-0).
MDI kills bab spear (5-0). 5th kills bow (6-0). Move 2 cats into Alisar.
2nd Sword kills redline spear (7-0). Ping 2 galleys to try to turn them around.
Sumeria is the only civ we know that is not in the Middle Ages. Babs have Invention. The Germans can't be far behind. [44-4]

IBT:
2 horse, 2 archer and a sword attacked Tarsus all die. The army was yellow to start, but the walls helped (5-0) [49-4].

1210AD:
Upgrade the *sword in Samuha. Knight there kills redlined knight and moves over to Aleppo (1-0).
Another knight there kills redline spear and goes elite (2-0).
4th kills two redlined units (4-0).
5th kills one and MDI another at Alisar (6-0).
2 more MDI wins (8-0).
6th kills bow (9-0).
2nd Sword kills 2 bows (11-0).
6th kills spear (12-0).
New knight kills bow and is elite (13-0).
2nd Mace captures two German workers and I disband them, too far away.
MDI kills another bow at Malice (14-0).
Yalburt MDI kills spear (15-0).
The Alisar/Yalburt/Kummanni area is finally getting cleared. Need to get the armies healed and found that town next. [64-4]

IBT:
Korean finished Sistines. Lots of troops move into attack position, but no one attacks.

1220AD:
Cats go 4 for 15 on two German units at Samuha, ouch. Neither redlined. eMDI kills mdi (1-0).
eMDI kills EW and leader arrives (2-0). MDI wins (3-0).
4th kills Knight (4-0).
New knight kills bow and is elite (5-0).
6th kills spears and goes to heal (6-0), pressure off of Malice now.
*MDI kill bow (7-0).
*MDI kills pike (8-0).
Knight kills archer (9-0).
Knight kills knight (10-0).
MDI kills MDI (11-0).
4th kills sword (12-0).
Second Mace is now MDI 3rd. It is easier to log 3rd than the other full name and it also lets you know how many you have without looking at the advisor. You will remember the 6th or whatever the last one was at any given point in time. It has to move up the mountains to find the Geraman homeland after cutting all the improvements in Frankfurt.

I see horse now, don't know if that is the only one they have, but it is likely the case. I think I was premature on the war with Germany and Sumeria as I have not seen them fight when they are in adjacent tiles. I saw lots of Sumerians head home and lots of German units head toward a Sumerian city, but it seems to be a coincident.

MDI at Kultepe kills spear (13-0).
1st kills EW (14-0) [78-4].
5th kills spear (15-0) [79-4].

IBT:
The hard part is trying to remember what happen on the ibt. Henry ask for a talk, I guess he wants peace, refused to speak to him. Korea makes Leo's, so I guessing they are in their GA as well or rushed it will an MGL. Are SGL enabled? Anyway they got Sistines as well so something good is going on for them.

Two attackers die (2-0) [81-4). No sure how you all feel about upgrades, but we have some cash and I am tempted to upgrade a few more cats to trebs. I think I have done 1 or 2 already. I have no real numbers, but I prefer them to cats.

1230AD:
I have to go around some German knights with the 3rd, but at least I step on their iron, so will cut that next turn and try to get to the horses. They are by Bremen.

MDI kills pike (1-0), knight kills spear (2-0).
Knight kills spear (3-0). MDI retreeat horse, Knight kills horse (different one)
(4-0).
Knight kills sword (5-0).
1st kill horse (6-0).
4th kills mace (7-0).
Knight kills spear (8-0).
MDI killed a pike (9-0).
2nd finishes a spear (10-0).
5th kills a spear (11-0). 5th moves into place to pick up the settler to found that 28th town (I hope it is the 28th). Leader waits.
Take small risk with an elite pike and kill a redlined pike (12-0). I just got tired of the Germans retreating safely from getting redlined.

I have moved the elite spear to the front where it may actually have a shot at a leader sometime. [91-4]

IBT:
no attacks on us, but Henry had a horse kill a Spanish horse next to Samuha. No wonder Henry wants to talk. He is fighting at least three civs that I know about.

I have seen quite a few German knights head our way, but they have to travel over mountains and hills where we cut the roads, so not much has shown up so far.

Much of the roads/mines are pillaged near Tarsus and Aleppo/Kultepe. They have been covered with 4-6 units in several stacks, so not much could be done.
Sumeria seems to have remember we are at war as 13 units show up near Malatya.

1240AD:
MDI retreats horse and another kills one of them. A knight was coming and finished the retreating horse (2-0).
MDI kills horse (3-0). Two knight win (5-0).
5th and 1st win and settler under 5th now (7-0).
MDI kills bow (8-0).
Knight kills archer (9-0). MDI and Knight win (11-0).
Knight wins (12-0). 4th moves into Samuha as it has little defense for the units around it. I do not attack with the army as it is barely green an will do most of the defending.

3rd pillages iron.
6th is back in action and kills spear (13-0). This is the best the land has looked since I started. Two turns to get the settler on site and then another army can be formed and filed with knights. If you can find enough that are not elite. [104-4]

IBT: nada

1250AD:
MDI kills bow (1-0), eKnight redlines itself on a yellow bowman and retreats.
5th kills pike and its crew moves next to the site. Knight kills that bow and is covered by pike.
(2-0) eKnight redlines killing a 2hp horse (3-0). Kinht kills redline spear (4-0).

Note I do not always denote the health of the units attacked, but most of them are redlined and the rest are yellow with few exceptions and those are usually hit by armies.

2 MDI killings of swords (6-0). Knight kills MDI (7-0). MDI goes redline, but kills the 2hp sword (8-0). Knight kills horse (9-0). 3rd pillages and moves on mountian next to horses.

Knight kills EW (9-0) one horse left no one can reach it. May or may not pillage road.
Wrong, the 6th came to the rescue and killed it and the other redlined sword on a hill, so both tiles are cleared. (11-0).
Knight kills redline archer (12-0).
MDI kills archer (13-0). [117-4]

Move pop off the fish to a mine while the Aqua is being built, swap the 1 gold for 1 net shield.

Spike is about to make a barracks, so if you have something else make the swap.
Move a few pop around that had lost their roads/mines.

Malatya needs water to grow so I steal BG from Wonder City for now the extra shield won't matter to it right now.

Three frontline towns are making a barracks, that may no longer be a priority, so take a look.

The 4th at Samuha will heal this turn, but it could be use if you want. I did not want to have it out of the town stuck on the hill so I left the horse alone. You could kill one or two German units, but they are not going to be doing anything and can wait.

I'll have my dual core 2.6GHz up and running for my next set. Whew.

Great job vmxa, sounds quite involved. I'll eventually go over it all ;) but the lines I read were most wise.

I am using only 3.06gh and it was not real bad.

Fine play, Vmxa. :goodjob:

well, mine is only a 1.9GHz rig...nevertheless, this is still playable and instead of Calvin and Hobbes, I watch soccer in between the turns

anyway, got it

I had moved most of the workers towards the rear to clear as I could not defend them at the front, but we are starting to get up some decent attackers.

There is a tile of swamp that is a possible town site out on the point. I could not clear it in timely fashsion. I was scared to death when the first IBT started with pikes being killed in town by weak units, but it was not repeated.

ThERat, I can feel some of the pain that will be coming as I once played a PTW archi map on 250x250 and the system was 1.7gh. It only had 256MB and some turns took a full hour. I played the same turn on this machine and it took 25 mins.

That game was probably worse than this one will be though. It only had 24 civs, but I wanted to see how bad it could get so I refused to expand off my island.

At least we will kill off civs eventually and will have less harbors. So I hope it will not play that slowly. As said before, settler animations took 2 minutes.

This game will be no better and possibly worse speedwise because the human player builds as many roads and often more rails than the AI (as some AI don't have the resources or are slow to build rails).

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/GR12_AD1300.SAV)

Pre-Turn
we have met Carthago, but not declared, do so now
we want to get rid of Zaragoza near the horses, shift pikes around and send army out
beat one spear and 1 bowman [2-0]

generally we should expand west to Sun Tzu, so that's where we should raze towns
chnage worker pump to build settler, we can never have enough of them

we pay a staggering 118gpt for unit support
now here is my plan
for each cat we capture, I am going to disband one of our own (41 of them, too many)
for 3 slaves I will join 1 native to our towns (36 of them)

if we stick to that, this should help us

1. 1255AD
we beat 1 unit on defense [3-0]

found Kadesh, now we can build another army
beat 2 units in Zaragoza, still its not razed (we have 2 armies there now)
well, this was fast, my first elite victory gives us another MGL, this will turn into a market in Spite

send another army west towards Nimrud
pillage German horses

beat 13 units [16-0]

IT lose MDI to a wounded sword attack [16-1]

2. 1260AD
beat 3 more spears in Zaragoza and city is finally gone for a cat
bring it back to Tarsus and disband a cat there

defeat 2 spears in Nimrud, LB left

overall 10 kills [26-1]

IT haiz, go 1:1 on defense losing a pike behind walls to a sword??? [27-2]

3. 1265AD
defeat 2 units and Nimrud is gone leaving 4 spears next to it standing in the rain :lol:
send our MDI army with settler to expand west
move knight army towards Eulbar and defeat 1 spear inside
get another MGL, this one will be preserved for the next knight army

tally 15-1, thus [42-3]

IT no attacks

4. 1270AD
found Adana with a combat settler
defeat 3 units and raze Eulbar to make proper space for our new city
raze New Berlin in the south

18 kills, thus [60-3]

IT no attacks

5. 1275AD
devise a plan to secure that choke in the west

16 kills [76-3]

IT go 1:1 [77-4]

6. 1280AD
move knight army to Shuruppak and also move in a combat settler

14-1 this time [91-5]

7. 1285AD
kill 4 units in Shuruppak, not enough
found Alaca at the western lake
found Northern star at the northern tip of our empire

one more city and we have another knight army
finally totally detach berlin from the rest of the empire

tally 11-0 [102-5]

IT 2:0 on defense near Shuruppka as a bunch of knights gets attacked [104-5]

8. 1290AD
Shuruppak is drained of units, after beating 2 spears, we take the town temporary
this allows for founding of Canal town, rush wall with the support of 1 cat
we have a new knight army of course with 32 towns

in the southeast raze Leira for 2 slaves

15-0 this time, thus [119-5]

IT I almost crack up when the Babs LB attacks the Arab mace that are both next to Canal town
good job !!!

9. 1295AD
defeat 21 units
get yet another MGL, we need 4 more cities which we could get soonish, so I leave that MGL alone

[140-5]

IT lose exposed knight versus a horse :crazyeye: [140-6]
Evora changes ownership from Portugese to Babylon

10. 1300AD
found Katna in the west
defeat 3 units in Samara, lose a knight but raze town
gain another 4 slaves and 1 cat, thus disband one of our own

defeat 2 units in Dortmund and raze town for 16gold, 2 slaves and a treb
defeat 2 units in Kufah and raze city as well for 2 slaves

10-1, thus final tally [150-7]

situation:
what holds us back currently are settlers though I tired my best. Do never stop producing them. Worker pump is the perfect settler pump, but we need more of those

once we have 3 more cities, we can form another knight army and lay waste.
I feel babs are for the taking, as long as they fight Arabs. We MUST get their Sun Tzu, it will mean gpt for us
Once we need to go back to self research the unit support will kill us currently. We have a lot of cash that will help us for deficit research until things are better.
It is understood that we go for MT all the way.And keep on disbanding our cats which we replenish with foreign ones. Also, the more slaves we get, the more natives we should merge to our cities.

There is a settler on the way to claim ivory. This should help us to reduce lux, there are more luxes south (wine/incense)

the western choke town with a settler near ivory
somewhere west must be Ashur with ST
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/gr121300a.jpg

the south
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/gr121300b.jpg

final tally [150-7]

Prodigious! :thumbsup:

Well done pushing west.

I've got it.

This game will be no better and possibly worse speedwise because the human player builds as many roads and often more rails than the AI (as some AI don't have the resources or are slow to build rails).

Yeah you could be right. The two reasons I figured it may be better is the 1) I think they improved things a bit in C3C over PTW, but that may not be the case. 2) I let they play by themslefs to see how bad it could get, so they each had large armies as island civs are want to do and fought back and forth with little accomplished.

I did finally get tired very late and killed two civs and as I recall it ended with 17 still left.

So it will be fun to see how it plays out. I had always thought the harbor trade route checking was worse than roads, but that seems to not be a sure thing. When roads were cut by the army it took a second or two. When the AI cuts our roads, though it made no delay.

Either way it will get worse. Will not knowing all the civs matter for trade route checking routines?

The processor speed is all that matters though as it is purely CPU bound. I never see it use all my memory and I can run music/webs/CAII and other stuff with no impact. At least on the 1GB systm.

ThERat, that was a fast set. Good plan to merge in some natives and disband cats as the opportunity for free ones arises.

You are correct settlers will be needed in a steady flow from now on. I wanted to get the Aqua in worker pump under the GA as we could not expand much at that time. Once the knights started to get into it, that allowed the armies to attack, rather than defend and police.

One thing that crossed my mind, but I did not mention was are we at the point that we can think about disbanning a Mace army to get the Knight army online sooner? If we have the knights to fill one and a leader, that may be a way to go.

They can be used to make an aqua someplace and get to city size.

I agree about merging native workers, and I have a more radical plan in mind. We have seventeen of them (out of our total of 35) in the north, where after they burn one more jungle they'll have nothing to do. It would take them at least six turns of movement after that to reach any unimproved tile. So I'm inclined to merge all seventeen, which would give our underpopulated core a tremendous boost and help a little with our unit costs, while establishing Malice as a two-turn worker pump (Worker Pump Only is effectively Settler Pump Only now ;)) to start producing new workers closer to where they're needed.

Would anyone object to this?

Seems good to me. By the time rails come lots of slaves should be available. It will be hard to do a lot of work for a time as most of the tiles needing improvements are at the front.

So what town is Sun Tzu in? It may be worth mentioning so we don't accidentally raze it. :lol: :cry:

Ya merging seems a good plan. We can always build more if we want and in this game it is a LONG way from rails due to the slower than normal tech pace.

OK, I'll proceed with that idea (which should not be taken as meaning that this turnaround will be nearly as fast as Rat's :D). Thanks for the quick response.

I would expect that when steam comes in we will wish we a lot more workers, but the price for keeping them that long is high.

final tally [150-7]
:dubious: 95.33% win rate...

I would expect that when steam comes in we will wish we a lot more workers, but the price for keeping them that long is high.

We may be well on our way to winning by the time rails come. On the other hand we may have a large number of foreign workers by then. I have seen close to 500 in one of these large games IIRC (though that may have been the 361x361 game).

Personally I wouldn't even bother to build any more workers. We will get lots of slaves now if we keep on razing those bigger cities (NP, I know you like to capture and sell improvements).
I would merge all those natives in the north and assess the situation. If we really need more workers once rails are in (That is still many turns away), we can build them in time.

Soon, the outlying cities will be our science farms and produce workers and settlers. That will be sufficient. Currently settlers are the bottleneck for quick expansion.
We do have to watch out for the initial stacks of Iro and Carthagian units though. That's why I would try and get rid of Babs and maybe Spain/Portugal. They have few cities left and the Spanish UU is really a pain in the ...

Oh, I mentioned in the picture, Ashur is the city with Sun Tzu.

1345 AD--three settlers have movement (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/GR12-1345AD.SAV)

My book for this round was N. A. M. Rodger's The Command of the Ocean--highly recommended. I got through about fifty pages. :D


1300 (0): Only an eight-minute interturn--better than I expected.

Hubishna harbour --> marketplace, Ivriz library --> marketplace.


1305 (1): On the Babylonian front we slay three spearmen (3-0). We capture a settler and two workers--not an unmixed blessing, as the relevant animations take about ninety seconds each. :lol:

We locate Babylon, and so the Great Wall, which I may try to keep.

Elsewhere we smite eleven units--seven German, three Japanese, and one Sumerian--losing an MDI (14-1).


1310 (2): We ride down two Bab LB landed next to Ugarit (16-1).

Elsewhere we defeat one Port, two Bab, three German, and three Japanese units, losing a knight (25-2).

We found Ivory Coast, gaining access to the eponymous luxury.

We found Merlot in the south, as we begin settling our way towards the wines.

We spot Ashur, and Sun Tzu.

A Carth unit appears--the first?

Our GA ends.

Ugarit harbour --> aqueduct.


1315 (3): We found Grenache, closer to the wines.

Mutawallis forms our ninth army.

We raze Najran, now Sumerian and held by two Enks (27-2). We gain a slave.

We destroy a Port MDI and a Bab LB, both landed near Ugarit (29-2).

We move three armies and supporting units next to Babylon.

Elsewhere we strike down six Sumerian and four Japanese units, gaining the GL Hattusilis (39-2).

We gain Invention from the GLib.

Wonder City marketplace --> library, Karhuyuk aqueduct --> pikeman.


1320 (4): We storm Babylon, held by six spearmen and a longbowman, and keep it for the sake of the Great Wall (46-2). Metallurgy may be a long way away; and since the Babs lack fast units, managing the starve-down shouldn't be difficult.

On entering Babylon we meet the Aztecs--the beige civ just beyond Babylonia, clearly--and declare war.

Elsewhere we kill eight enemy units, mostly German (54-2).

We see the Spanish fighting the Arabs, and the Babs fighting the Ports.


1325 (5): We found Pinot Noir, claiming wines--our third luxury.

In the Pinot Noir area we raze Spanish Valencia, held by four spearmen and an archer, for the loss of a knight (59-3). We gain a slave and capture a cat.

The Aztecs hold Akkad, so they're at war with the Babs too.

We expunge seventeen assorted enemy units (76-3).

We're able to cut the lux rate to 20%, bringing us to 102 gpt. 10% lux might be possible, with a lot of three-unit garrisons, but we should probably wait for our fourth luxury.

Tyrana library --> knight, Alacacuk marketplace --> pikeman.


1330 (6): We found Shiraz and Cabernet in the wine country, also settling towards Germany's incense. We're seven tiles, or two enemy cities, away from it now.

We form and fill our tenth army.

The Iroquois appear--in the SE, approaching Malatya--and we crush an MDI (77-3).

Elsewhere we trample nine enemy units (86-3).

Washington library --> pikeman, Harran marketplace --> knight, Yalburt courthouse --> marketplace.


1335 (7): We finish merging the seventeen northern workers.

It looks as though the Babs are on an isthmus, and taking their core won't enlarge our front too much. Better still, they have silks--our potential fifth luxury.

We move two knight armies and some supporting knights next to Ashur, overrunning a Bab LB on the way (87-3).

We raze Spanish Murcia, held by three spearmen and an archer (91-3). Between capture and razing we gain five slaves.

Hmm, it turns out that we founded Pinot Noir in the suburbs of Mecca. :eek:

Elsewhere we exterminate just an Iroquois knight, an Ir. MDI, and two Japanese MDI (95-3). It's not all bad when the AI sends fewer, more expensive units.


1340 (8): We take Ashur, held by four spearmen, and capture Sun Tzu (99-3).

We raze Mecca, held by just three pikemen (102-3)--obviously a consequence of the Arabs' other wars. We capture a treb and four slaves (razing plus settler).

We found Alalah, pushing our southeastern border forward.

Elsewhere we liquidate fourteen assorted enemy units and capture a settler, losing a knight (116-4).

Babylon flips--no great surprise. We lose only two pikemen.

More seriously, only one citizen of Ashur comes out of resistance during the safe interturn, through the city was crammed with our units, so we can't begin the starve-down there. :mad:

Hattusha library --> pikeman, Wonder City library --> knight.


1345 (9): We re-take Babylon, held only by a spearman (117-4).

We found Chianti to round off our position in the wine country; Bushire to push our borders out in the southeast; and Alaca Huyuk to start filling in the Babylonian lands.

We smash nine assorted enemy units (126-4).

Sixteen elite victories this round produced one Great Leader.

We have remarkable freedom of action at the moment, though that may change, since we've seen very little from the Aztecs, Carthaginians, and Iroquois. Our immediate objectives should be to raze Nippur and the Bab silks city, and to raze Khurasan, which exerts a lot of cultural pressure on our new front line. After that we can think of pushing southeast to the incense near Frankfurt, or crushing the Arabs in a pincer movement.

Our need for settlers is so extreme that I've been treating most of our cities below size seven as settler sources, micromanaging for population growth and rushing settlers as soon as the towns reach size three. In some cases we have towns about to accumulate thirty shields a few turns before they reach size three; now that we have Sun Tzu, these builds can be changed to pikemen if that's what the next player wants. Our unit costs are down to 86 gpt.

The situation in Babylonia, with two resisting Wonder towns, is irritating but not serious, since we're under no pressure there. We'll probably have to put up with a few more flips, and make the most of the safe interturns to reduce resistance. Right now we're in a safe interturn (again :rolleyes:) in Babylon, so we've got a lot of units there, but next turn we should cut the garrison to one.

I'm inclined to stay with minimum research until the GLib becomes obsolete, though I don't have a strong opinion on the point. We have enough research capacity now that we could discover Gunpowder in 22 turns without a deficit, or in eleven by spending most of our nest egg.

We have a settler in position to found a city at site 1 in the screenshot next turn. Then we can safely build a road along the coast, and found a fill-in town at site 2.

Malice is set up as a two-turn worker pump, and I think we should let it run indefinitely. The more we expand, the more we need workers. The problem with our northern workers was more their location than their numbers.

Three of our settlers still have their movement, so the next player can send them where he sees fit. Some of our armies have movement too, but IMO they should heal where they are.

The southeast:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/GR12-1345ADi.JPG

The wine country:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/GR12-1345ADii.JPG

Babylonia:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/GR12-1345ADiii.JPG

I have been along in favor of letting the GLB do what it can for us and not researching till it bellies up.

Free barracks, yeah. That is huge for us. 90 second animations nice. MGL's will come, so no sweat on that one.

I think you are correct in waiting for more lux to cut the slider.

great progress NP. Expanding rapidly is key in this game. With 40 cities we are still desperate for more. More cities = less unit support + more armies + more scientists. Babs have education already and we might be required to start research very soon. I would try and nurture the outlying cites to become nice science farms.

We need to take out that Island city of the babs since we want to eliminate them soonest to get rid of the flip risks.

30-1 ratio :hatsoff:, 2 luxes nested, 2 luxes spotted and around our fair share of elites with 1/16. There ain't nothing I can add.

As always, AGR Aztecs and Iroquois could be big and fearsome, so I'll look at the score charts and decide upon how careful I go expanding in their directions for the first half of my set.

Our front looks map-wide but I guess it's got to be that way for a while. I'm curious about how efficient it could be to rush straight south and separate the fronts. It's just a random silliness of mine though, I won't bother doing it unless it looks sensible to push South hard.

With this kind of treasury, I'd be inclined to keep research as it is and make more MDI/knights out of towns that are 50% corrupt and less. If the team wishes otherwise for a faster sprawl, though, very fine.

I'll check for where we could need libs (6+ beakers city) and rush them there, if this too is fine. We have a lot of gold and things go well on the borders, so I say let's use it.

I'm up and will definitely start playing tomorrow night, so this should be done and posted wednesday.

Excellent turn NP.

My inclination would be to take out Babylon next. We might even be able to keep some more cities. Check to see how many cities they have left.

I would also keep the cash for research rather than rushing Libraries. Researching at 100% seems a more effective use of our money. I would start building Libraries in any town with 6+ beakers of course.

Also concentrate on aquaducts in corrupt towns so we can get the extra unit support and eventually will enable us to build more scientists.

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It looks like it is time to go hard on research. The best I can figure is most are doing under 150 beakers a turn. I would expect at least two civs that are better than any we know of right now, so put them at 200-220 beakers.

So figure 12 -14 turn research for the best and 16-18 for the second best group and over 20 for the rest. We can get around 170 with no strain coming in the second tier.

The good news for us is we will be expanding and they will have more trouble doing that. Not sure how we stand on the 512 city limit, but that will come into play.

In any event we can no longer afford to have 50 turn research.

Libs I would think make sense in any net 15 commerce town. Under 10 net is shaky. The problem for us right now is we do not have many canidates.

We have Ankuwo making one and that is about the only one that is worth it. We have Northern Star making one, but that does not look real promising to me, maybe a harbor instead.

Ivory Coast is making one, but that is probably not a good investment right now.

Court Houses is another issue. Katna is making one right now, but maybe I am missing something as I do not see how it will be worth having. I confess I am not one of those that love CH's. I tend to see them as an expense that is not going to pay off in most towns. Those that can get their money back, I prefer to build the CH when it can be done in a lot less than 80 turns.

I would rather have wealth, if that is all the faster I can get it out. So maybe someone can show me the error of my ways.

One other thing is the landings in the rear. I was able to send all galleys back with no landings by pinging them with trebs. Keeping 4-6 trebs in the area is going to pay off. We were very thin at the time and if any troops win a combat, it would be dangerous.

Also any knight landings could allow pillaging. Later they will be sending caravels and then will need even more troops to cover landings. I guess the galley coming back was disbanded or sunk.

It may be useful to have 2 galleys to sink some of those redlined ships. Without rails a bad rng could really be painful combined with even two galleys unloading.

I would bet money that at least one of the civs out there with Education jumped on Astro, so it won't be much longer before we find new friends.

I am not sure what the AI will do once one fo them comes up with PP. Will they trade contacts and bring us more grief?

Also concentrate on aquaducts in corrupt towns so we can get the extra unit support and eventually will enable us to build more scientists.

Let me pose this and then someone can shoot it down and I will learn something.

It is turn 258 currently. A town that nets 1 shield will not finish an aqua until turn 358, plus how many more turns go by before it starts it.

It finishes and we gain +2 unit support and pay 1 for maint. Now at least it can grow again and make specialist and we can get a pay back. Fine, we need about 50 turns of +2 to recover the 100 gold we did not get for being on wealth and that does not count the maint for the aqua, but that will be offset by increase pop.

So we are somewhere around turn 408 to start going totally on the plus side. Will the game last that long? Note this is only for towns startign aqua now, not those that we will not start till much later. I am all for rushing aquas along with leaders that we cannot use at the time, but that will not be all that common.

We may even be able to disband units from time to time, but probably not until we get 5 or 6 luxs online.

Now once we look at non totally corrupt towns we have a better deal. Frankly I am not one who even likes to let new 100% towns even grow at all, until I get rails. I just flip the lone pop to scientist or taxmen and let them sit on their butts till then.

Once I have rails, then IF I have workers to spare, I will irrigate tiles and let it grow. I guess it comes down to +2 or not. If they have +3 or better let grow, else to heck with it. It takes 12 food to get the 6 pop, that takes a long time at +1 or even +2.

Again this is just my perspective and I am willing to listen to reason. BTW I would expect railing to be almost all consuming and to not have workers to flit around and irrigate and rail tiles in many places. Spare workers will be better used to rail mines in core cities.

That's a lot of thoughtful analysis. :thumbsup: Some responses:

In much of this discussion--when you talk about Katna, Ivory Coast, aqueducts--you seem to be assuming that we're dealing with completely corrupt, 1-spt cities. That's not the case at all, on this huge map. Katna is right next to Yalburt (sounds like a poorly conceived cartoon character ;)), and look what a good city that is. So normal ideas of city development--a courthouse for moderately corrupt Katna, a library to give Ivory Coast access to its whales--apply well enough.

In fact, our zone of total corruption doesn't exist yet, given the size of the map.

I'm not instinctively a courthouse builder either, but there's no question (in Conquests) that the math is in their favour in semi-corrupt towns.

Ridiculous though it is, a lot of the naval movement along our coasts at the moment has to do with the Bab-Port war, and doesn't produce landings against us. You're right that landings will become a greater problem, of course. We may have to assign an army to homeland defense.

Your point about leaving fully corrupt towns at a population of just one specialist before rails, if that's all they can support anyway, is very interesting. The obvious objection is that a +2 food town at size one when rails become available will take a long time after that to support, say, three specialists, whereas a town which has been allowed to reach size six pre-rails will achieve the three-specialist level as soon as the workers can build the improvements. So your way is a short-term strategy, but in a front-loaded game that's not necessarily bad. Has anyone posted an analysis of this with hard numbers?

The right use of the wealth setting is one of the deep questions in the game, and I'm not saying that you're wrong in general. But in this game, we'll have almost permanent need for settlers and pikemen (all of which will be veteran thanks to Sun Tzu); and every time we set a corrupt town to wealth, we'll effectively be selling a settler or pikeman for 30 gold, which isn't a good deal.

Well I put it out there to see if I could get some better perspectives. I think what you said has much merit. The only thing I would say in my defense is that I was not against those builds, only those builds at this time in those towns.

I know that the corruption will probably not be an issue in say Northern Star, it is just that the lib will be a long time coming and that town is without much land, so a harbor could maybe come first and then the lib.

That may be totally wrong though. The courthouse in Katna, I was not seeing much corruption there, so I was unsure of what it would accomplish, at this time.

The aqua issue, I was not really speaking to those town, I was speaking to any town that needs 100 turns or maybe even above 70. We may not have any of those towns at this point. To tell you the truth I did not check on places that will not grow without one and how long it would be for those specific towns to build one. For sure, if they can get up much faster, that is worth doing, presuming they have plenty of food.

On this issue I was merely trying to raise my hand to say we may want to consider carefully when and where an aqua makes sense, even more so as the game gets later and later.

I know everone here is very experienced, so I am only seeing if my thinking is making any sense, before I stumble. I appreciate the chance to bounce some of this stuff off of everyone. It helps me learn. A map this size is not one you get to see very often. :)

So thanks for the feedback and go get them Beorn.