We will play this on large map as is stated in the headline.

Normally 5CC is played on Standard, but here with a larger map we will find the difficulties harder due to more AI territory and also more AI competitors.

My team-mates scoffed at my proposition of playing Babylon and schemed behind my back to offer Korea and Wang Kon a helping hand to win by Space Victory.

My choice of Babylon was due to cheap cultural achievements, but in a democratic way I agree to play Korea. Also, I want to try the unique unit under some tough circumstances and after all, we can still build cheap libraries.

Not that it matters much though, we will build every happy/science improvement in all our cities, sooner or later. It's just the quick change between gov's that bothers me, but with a proper management of our empire, we don't have to switch gov more than twice.

We are Scientific and Commercial and will play peacefully so we can expand our 5 city nation to it's fullest, before we take out our neighbours one by one.

Our ammunition will be strong commercial skills and fast research, and in context with this, we'll be building a force of Hwacha's:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz-hwacha.jpg

Invited players are:

Andronicus
SimpleMonkey
Whomp
zerksees

I suppose we could use another player or two, but you have to be skilled at Deity also have appropriate MM-ing skills.

Now, I tried to find a proper map, but was either closed in or we got something like 5 cows in our area. I don't want either of that, I just want a decent start with river and a foodbonus.

Foodbonus can be cow, wheat or wines, I don't care. Just as long as we get something to battle those AI's so we can get 5 cities down before they block us in.

I wait for your answers and will continue looking for that decent map. One cow is all we need, not 5 and just enough expansion to get 5 cities without overlap.

I know I said otherwise in the PM's, IF you get a good start after 20 turns, just post it, mind you?

Did we agree on SS or was that just letting off some hot air :mischief:

edit oops, just noticed you did say SPACE-SHIP above

Thanks Andronicus,

Now I have to ask a mod to fix what I forgot to mention.

Want to try this one?
Korea, diety, random opponents, random geography, restless barbs :D
OK, first rolled start with river

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Korea_4000BC.JPG

I rolled quite a few of them starts.

Where's the food bonus?

You don't want one?

I just want a decent start with river and a foodbonus.

That's what I want.

But if you played a few turns and say this is the one, I trust you.

It looks ugly though.

That's what I want.

But if you played a few turns and say this is the one, I trust you.

It looks ugly though.

I did play a few rounds but didnt want to spoil you. Lets just say I think it may be worth trying. If you want the first 20 go for it, if not I'll play on.

It looks ugly though.

It's not a 5 cow 4 wheat start :mischief:

I quite like playing on first rolled starts, makes me think I havn't manipulated the setting's in my favour.

I'll try to contribute something this evening. My current deity solo game is also Korea (actually, I renamed them Klingons just for fun), and I only managed to pull off 4 cities before being boxed in by the Germans and Zulu. Ouch.

And what's wrong with pulling up 5 cows, I ask? :lol:

EDIT: Checking in, BTW. :salute:

Would you take an(other) idiot in?

I am Deity-skilled, with a lot of SS practice, and although I'm not very fammiliar with 5CC I usually have a smaller nation with highly developed cities.

I actually had a longer break from Civ3, and I started playing again last week (and dunno when I'll be able to stop). But I simply couldn't resist posting when I saw "will play peacefully".

:mischief:

Edit: You didn't mention the difficulty level. Since you asked for Deity skills, I suppose it's either Deity or DG. What is it?

Checking in.
I can vouch for Pentium's skills if we can add another idiot.
I am attempting some starts. We'll see what comes of it.

Welcome aboard Pentium. :)

It's Deity of course and I also forgot to mention I wanted 11 AI's. That's how it goes when you try to start something when you're drunk...

I'm having a look at Andronicus's save and see how it goes. I might try to roll another few maps as well.

Thanks for letting me in :)

If you said that start is good, there must be a lot of cows nearby :D
(I hope so...)

:eek: daring attempt guys :goodjob: I wish you all good luck in this

I rolled a couple of maps and actually played through one that I thought was promising. Got all five cites placed well, but it turns out that life is kinda tough in deity when you don't have horses or iron. I can try for a couple of others, but I'm curious to see what Andronicus came up with.

If you want I can test-play this to see if the attempt is futile or possible .

Just tell me if you want me to.

Well I want to go on record saying that I did not vote for Korea, but I'd try it if we picked the Zulu.

I suppose we could get lucky and find a couple balanced AI, so good trading and some crafty sabotage to make this spaceship thing happen, but my prediction is that we are going to have to crush them before we get to launch the ship. Not that goz-11 is affecting my judgement :twitch:

No worries Rik, the game is afoot. :)

I started to roll new maps, but fortunately I remembered the save from Andronicus. It's playable and I took 30 turns to get us started.

I moved the worker to the BG, but didn't see anything of value, so the settler went S to the river.

3950BC - Seoul is founded and there's a cow on plains outside our borders, it will come in handy after border-expansion.

Start a warrior and worker roads the BG.

Because this is large map, I set science at minimum (20%) on Writing.

3800BC - Road finish and worker run 2S to irrigate the cow.

3700BC - Our first warrior Bubba is trained, send him to the mountains eastwards where he spots gems. Start another warrior.

Worker start to irrigate the cow.

3600BC - Bubba spot another gem and finds a coastal tile NE.

3550BC - We have a possible place to found a city by the coast, there's a fish there too, but we will need border expansions for the dot I have in mind to get it.

But there's a deer E of Seoul, which look like a first choice for next city.

3500BC - Irrigation done, road cow.

Bubba investigates the promising area.

3450BC - Seoul's borders expands and we build another warrior (Bluto) -> settler.

Cool, I forgot that Andronicus chosed barbs as I see a goodyhut W of town. Not that I'm going to pop any right now, but it's nice to know.

Send Bluto W and check luxtax at 10%, science the same.

3350BC - Bubba climbs a mountain and find another game, that will be our next town. Hopefully we can trade for CB and do some chopping for a temple. Send the worker over there to irrigate some plains, so our upcoming town will have some food.

3200BC - 2 stack of 4 russians each pops a hut next to Bubba, they're up Masonry, Pottery, WC and CB. No surprises there.

Bluto wonders over a range of hills and meet an English warrior. They are only up Pottery on us.

Bubba finds some floodplains and Bluto see furs, they're all out of reach for us though.

3100BC - Seoul settler -> warrior. Send the settler to the game-area.

Bubba is walking over the floodplains and there are 3 wheats there, talk about food galore. Pity we can't grab any of that.

3050BC - Good news, we meet the Celts:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz12_celts.jpg

2900BC - Seoul warrior -> warrior. The new warrior Bonkers will scout N.

2850BC - Pyong (renamed) founded -> temple. Worker starts to chop forest there, we will need to expand those border as fast as we can.

Bluto meets a German spear, they know Masonry.

2800BC - Bubba meet an Iroquois warrior, they too are up Masonry.

2750BC - Seoul warrior -> settler. Send Beppo S.

I notice that the Celts have learnt The Wheel, but they won't part with it. But they have 2 workers for sale, I buy one for 124g. We need roads.

2670BC - Bonkers wanders up to a barbhut, sitting next to a GH up N. I'll have to try it as an English warrior is tracking.

Beppo finds another decent spot S for a town. With expansions we will have 2 floodplains and lost of hills and mountains.

2630BC - Bonkers takes out the barbhut for 25g.

2590BC - Civs knows IW, Myst and the Wheel, but noone wants to share their knowledge.

Bonkers pops the GH, but nothing but barbs comes out of it.

2550BC - 3 Civs are building the Pyramids.

Next settler should go to the red dot, the one after that should clain the gem-area, where we also can build a curragh. Last city look like it will be NW, there are some mountains and stuff there, but to avoid overlap, that city can't be put on a river. Except if we chose a coastal spot, but not too much of BG's there.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz12_2550bc_dots.jpg

Who wants it next?

Btw, the worker should finish irrigation and road by Pyong, then go and chop the game-forest and fo course irrigate it when that's done.

As previously mentioned I did play 20 turns (unfocused) to determine if it may be playable. Because I explored a little that you have not, I should not take it next and will refrain from commenting for the moment

I'll take it. Next settler on red dot. Worker near Pyong to finish irrigate and road on current tile and then chop game forest.

I'll see what I can do about meeting other civs and getting some techs.

double post.

Good luck on getting Wang Kon to Alpha Centauri.:rockon: :goodjob:

Subscribed.

Let's hope we won't be "kicked off the planet" before :)

Also, I've been thinking about Hwachas. They require Saltpeter. I guess you haven't played the start long enough to reach Gunpowder, but it seems we're gonna need it. Am I thinking too far ahead or do we have a plan B in case we can't get it?

As far as I can tell, this game is gonna require a delicate balance of diplomatic finesse and clobberin' time. As zerksees pointed out earlier, he and goz could have launched a spaceship after they ground the rest of the world into powder. Even tougher to manage to launch with some other civ's still intact and relatively healthy.

Basically, if we don't have native salt, it's gonna take a fair bit of fancy trade to keep up a supply. Doable. Koreans actually have fair chances of being trade mongers. Not England, but they can do it.

Obviously we will need to acquire saltpeter. We have some mountains in our planned zone of control, and they could provide iron and saltpeter if we get lucky. If not we will trade for it when the time is right. 11 AI brings diplomacy to a new level of importance for me.

Deity 5CC is such a challenge - it's hard to plan ahead for this type of stuff. Once the problem occurs we'll solve it quickly.

Played about 7 turns yesterday - was the best I could do with mother's day and all. Red dot city planted, wasn't sure this was smart until I noticed the floodplains! We have enough gold to buy a tech, but I need more to make a big score. No additional civs met yet.

No one has demanded anything yet, but expect it soon and expect to have to give in to these demands for a while.

(Whoa I forgot these H'wachas have lethal bombard. We are going to want to keep some of these onhand after replaceable parts by not upgrading them to artillery).

Played 10 turns.

Explored but did not find anyone new.

2510 BC - Sadly Beppo was eliminated by a Jute barb on the IBT. Beppo was on a mountain near the homeland at the time of attack but he lost. English units avenged him.

We have enough gold (137 IIRC +10gpt) to buy a tech but not enough to buy one we can trade. Next player please double check this. England is only two techs up, I can see the Germans and Russia are four up, and the Celts and Iroquois are five up.

I had lux at 0 for several turns in the middle to catch some gold. Once the capital got up to size 2 I went back to 10% lux and sent the warrior out of Pyong to the east.

Rojo founded on red dot in 2270 BC.

Oy, goz, a roster perhaps? Just don't put me up next. I'm doing one other SG and then must actually attend to RL until the weekend.

Good job, zerksees! If we're gonna have to spend so much cash on techs, we gotta get tradable ones. (Hey, thanks for pointing out the obvious.)

My suggestion SM is we keep it relaxed and whoever has free time avail next takes it next and that way the roster sorts itself out - I'm up in 1 and about to be up in 2 other SGs so it may be a few days before I can take it

P'raps I just repeat goz's prev question :D


Who wants it next?

Thanks Andronicus. :) That's how we play this game.

If anyone have time that haven't played already, just jump in.

And Bubba Jr has to be trained. That's very important.

Nice work, zerksees. Now we need to figure out the last spot, I want it by the mountains northish. Only to give us more chances of eventual goodies, but that town would need aqueduct in the long run...but who cares really?

That's pretty relaxed, which is fine by me. :D I'll download the save so I can comment on it at least semi-intelligently.

A screenie for us to mull over

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/dot_map.JPG

I've put my 2 cents into it with a couple of suggestions
Blue dot for gems, coastal, on lake, BG and fish
Pink dot lacks freshwater but can use 8 river tiles for commerce and gets 2BGs, some forests for chops (and maybe mopre BGs), as well as 4 mountains for shields later. No food boni, sorry.
Putting pink dot on the river causes overlap with Seoul or blue dot (if coastal)

edit - I think we could consider blue dot 1SE to get second gem mountain, also extra forest, grass and plains, losing a hill and 3 coastal tiles. This also gives option of pink dot moving to river / coast with only 1 overlapping tile (gains fish, but loses both BGs). I think the current spot for pink dot stronger, but not sure how much lack of duct will hurt early

BTW goz I would have put Rojo (red dot) on one of the hills so it could immed access the FP - build worker *2 and irrigate like fury. Would have fewer shields but quicker growth. Current pos gets less corruption (though we are commercial) but lacks defensive bonus of hill. Bit late for me commenting now I know but curious as whether you feel its current pos superior (less desert, less FP, more river plains)

edit - I think we could consider blue dot 1SE to get second gem mountain, also extra forest, grass and plains, losing a hill and 3 coastal tiles. This also gives option of pink dot moving to river / coast with only 1 overlapping tile (gains fish, but loses both BGs). I think the current spot for pink dot stronger, but not sure how much lack of duct will hurt earlyI was thinking the same. I think the blue one would be better 1SE anyway, it gets another Mountain+Gem tile.

Regarding the pink dot, it looks more interesting. As opposed to the coastal position, it has 4 mountains and 2BG's. The coastal one has 1 Mountain and 2 Hills (which are far better). So we actually lose 2spt, not counting the ones we could possibly find under chopped forests in both cases. OTOH, we get a free Aqueduct, a fish, and a couple of 3gpt tiles. We even get 2 more food from the hills. :)

It's actually a quiestion of gold vs. shields. We're going to need both in this game, but it looks like especially Pyong and the Blue dot are already focued on production with their hills, so I think the coastal position for Pink Dot would be better.

BTW, I have a lot to do for school today so I can't grab the save, but will be free for most of the day tomorrow.

Thanks guys - now my 2 cents:

Blue dot looks good right now - though we should explore to the north to see if there are grassland tiles up there.

For city 5, pink dot looks OK. Others we may consider:

Other choice A: Plains tile 3W and 1 SW from Seoul. There is a river on that mountainside directly alongside the tile. Need to explore to the south/west of Seoul to expose the last couple tiles this would encompass. Maybe a bonus grassland there could make it good. But then I also worry about being right next to the mountains

Other Choice B: Hills tile 3SE and then 2S of Pyong. May be too far from capital, but would have an awful lot of flood plains (3 with wheat IIRC). Could be a huge cash generator in late game.

I'm finishing up "feast mode" so I will try to grab it either tonight or Thursday night (after Pentium)

I think having 11 deity civs on this map will make the trading hot and heavy and feel we can trade our way around so I lean towards Andronicus' original pink spot.

Pink dot not getting a river pains me, but I can't see the benefit of moving it to the coast and losing the mountains or crowding on the capital's tiles. I just hope there's more than rocks and dirt up in those mountains. Light blue dot is more mobile in my eyes, depending on what's on the tiles to the north. Could go 1SE. It pains me not to snag the two wheats on the flood plain in the south, but that would make a pretty lopsided empire.

I like the pink dot, 5 forests to chop will help towards an aqueduct later. Blue dot 1 SE.

Rojo sits fine where it is, if we would have to defend now or soon, the game is over anyways. Later with 2 border-expansions we can 'control" incoming traffic. Ans as soon as our 5 towns are settled, we can focus on our workforce and get our cities up to scratch. Now we need to grab those spots before anyone else does.

The floodplains SE is a tempting place, but too far away to be really useful.

Regarding scouting, we need to send out more scouts to uncover lands and find other nations, so techs gets cheaper. Right now everything is very expensive and we will fall behind.

I think blue dot is next to be founded, a curragh or two will help us a lot. And be careful with the scouts we have out already, they've walked a fair bit and should avoid any barbs if possible.

I like the pink dot, 5 forests to chop will help towards an aqueduct later. Blue dot 1 SE.Sound fine with me.

I think blue dot is next to be founded, a curragh or two will help us a lot. And be careful with the scouts we have out already, they've walked a fair bit and should avoid any barbs if possible.If nobody gets it before tomorrow evening (Whomp?), I'll play then. How many turns does it take to build a settler now?

I couldn't play last night Pentium so play away.

OK, doing so right now :)

Preflight: really nothing to say, you saw the situation.
Trading situations is quite poor, so I'd wait until new contacts or Writing (whichever will be first) to trade.

IT: Oh my God. How can you guys play with animations on on Deity?

Turn 1 [2110 BC]: Meet the Frogeaters. Joan wants 9gpt+147g for IW. That's 327 gold, and we have 10gpt. I take it.
But Lizzy doesn't want to give Wheel or Myst for it. :hmm: She gives 85g, tho. I thought she'll be happy to trade a tech for which we'd need 11 turns for an 18-turn one. Sometimes AI's are like adults... ;)
Also, we have Iron just SE to Rojo [party]. Should be connected soon.

Turn 2 [2070 BC]: Writing getting more and more popular. Can't people just talk? Duh...

IT: Our Warrior is kicked out of England, Celts are building the Oracle.

Turn 3 [2030 BC]: Rojo Warrior -> Warrior, Pyong Temple -> Barracks.
Only 2 Civs without Writing...

Turn 6 [1910 BC]: We get another Settler in Seoul, runs straight to Blue Dot. Start Warrior.

Turn 7 [1870 BC]: Another warrior out of Rojo, seems like this one will have lot of production, start Rax.

Turn 8 [1830 BC]: A Barb appears near Pyong. A quick change to Spear loses no shield, but will be done in 1 turn.
I get another proof that GH results are predefined: A hut that AI's avoided far to the south pops angry barbs.

Turn 9 [1790 BC]: Pyong Spear->Granny

Turn 10 [1750 BC]: Unaware of proper Korean naming protocols, the blue dot city is named Bouncing Bucket, after the known way of Chinese people naming their children. Dunno if that applies to Koreans as well, so It's a guess. :D

Turn 11 :blush: [1725 BC]:
Ah, I accidentally pressed Space and got a new turn (I did everything before that), and we got Writing now.
Only Lizzy doesn't have in, and she'll give us 1 tech for it, either Masonry, Wheel or Myst, and a small amount of gold.
The workers are set to make road connection to BB and Rojo's Iron. Rojo should get some improvements IMO.

I promise I'll play 9 turns next time :)

And a screenie:
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/797/1725bc2js.jpg

Edit: Also, the next tech should not be Philo. 3 Civs know it, and one knows CoL. I'd go for Literature, it's usually the best way to get a monopoly.

Agree about Lit being a better choice than Philo. Wheel might not be a bad trade, just to see if we have horsies. Very nice that we have iron.

Pyong is getting a granary as a prebuild, or just to get to size 12 ASAP?

I though it will benefit the most from it, but it won't reach size 12 untill RR (only one tile with more than 2 food). Feel free to change it, but there aren't many chioces really. Maybe another worker, you can never have too many of them.

Who's next?

Got it and will play some tonight. Are we confirmed on pink dot's placement?

Nice turns Pentium.

Cultural buildings before other buildings, please. The sooner we expand borders the less inclined the AI will be to poach land around us.

I think Pyong can squeeze out a worker next turn by using a forest and then go for the granary. Swap Rojo to temple and Bouncing Bucket :D might try for a curragh?

The settler in Seoul is a little bit premature, build another warrior there first. We need an escort for the settler to the pink dot.

Interesting, there's another iron near that spot - either we move the dot 1 SW or just wait for double border-expansions there and some squabbling with Lizzy over the resource. :) In the future an extra iron can be very valuable.

No luxtax is needed right now, I think.

We might want to know where there are horses, resources and luxes are a 5CC empire's best tools to hang on. Lizzy will probably get the tech by herself if we don't trade now.

Researching Lit sounds good to me, but don't ever do it on deficit. The AI will demand gold now and again and we can't afford losing workers or even worse...buildings.

Maybe Pyong should kick out the last settler?

I would go for lit next too

Looks good Pentium.

Pre- Turn: Heed Goz' advice and change a couple builds around. Notice we are only up writing to Liz so trade writing for wheel and 27g. The closest horses are 2E and 1SE of Bouncing Bucket. Turn research to lit at 30% (6 beakers) and no gpt. Ikes.
I was hoping for a prebuild for a lib but no dice.

IT Pyong gets a worker and starts a settler

1700 Move the worker towards the capital since Pyong is on settler duty and won't need him.

IT barb approaches Pyong
1675 start irrigation with with new worker named Wang. Move Dang towards Rojo since he finished his road. Move the warrior towards Pyong since it will need an MP next to keep lux down.

IT Barb impales on our spear so the palace gets an upgrade. English start Oracle
1650 Dang starts some irrigation for Rojo

IT Americans establish a embassy
1625

IT
1600 Slave boy finishes his road and heads towards Bouncing to start a road.

IT Hiawatha needs 26g....okeedokey. Celts start MoM and finish the pyramids in Entremont. Russians move Oracle, Glight, Germans Glight, English Oracle
1575

IT Iroquois ToA and Oracle. American MoM. DC finishes Oracle, Tenochtitlan finishes MoM
1550 Dang starts a road.

IT ToA moved by Celts
1525

IT Settler finishes and start a gran in Pyong.
1500 Seoul needs some lux for a turn till the warrior from Pyong moves so up it to 10%. Bouncing grows and needs a scientist until the road is hooked up.

Summary
Reasonably quiet turns. I thought I renamed the workers but actually forgot. :D

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7547/goz7hf.jpg

You guys should advertise in the SG registry thread, I missed this one :blush: :whipped:

And if my vote counted, I would say pink 1SW. Grasses are expendable and if my grid-eyes are well aligned, you lose no forests to chop.

Good job, Whomp. I'm glad we got the last settler and can now focus on improving cities.

BTW, how many turns until we get Lit? 6bpt doesn't look much on a Large map, does it?

@BeF: that would lose 2 river grassland tiles and gain one, and it would get 2 mountains instead of 2 grass tiles. You're right about the forests, both sites have an equal amount of them.

Anyway, I think 4 mountain tiles per city is more than enough. Again, I always overestimate commerce and underestimate production.

We are grinding on beakers. Since Bouncing Bucket required 80% lux to make it happy I converted a citizen to a scientist. I was anywhere from 10-30% science depending on the impact to beakers. It's now time to hook up the gems and grow a bit.

I did not move the settler since I wanted to make sure we still want pink dot with the horses to our NE. I suppose we'll need a colony there.

Looking good, except that I still want a temple in Rojo before anything else. We will have 3 floodplains there to boost our population. Actually, after looking at the save I suggest we whip the temple next turn

After the granary in Seoul, we should build a couple of workers, those gems and Bouncing Bucket needs to be hooked up.

If we can find another worker someplace, it would be nice to chop the second deer towards the granary in Pyong. 4 fpt sounds nice.

Germany and France has workers for sale, I think we should buy the german one as they are the leaders so far.

Dang...sorry I missed the workers. I was looking at mapstat instead of the diplo screen. My bad.

Whomp - I feel your pain. It is so hard to get 10 turns without missing anything. gozpel will keep us on track.

Round 1:

gozpel
zerksees
Pentium
Whomp

still to claim their first turn:

Andronicus
Simple Monkey

No rush.

Got it

Wife didnt arrive back from England this morning as expected - had to get a later plane and wont be home till tomorrow, so .. kick the boys off the computer and have some fun :mischief:

Pre turn
Send settler towards pink dot
We have 1 scientist but are running 30% science which doesnt speed lit?
Science to zero
Buy German worker 54g + 4gpt
Buy French worker for 76g + 2gpt
These workers will more than pay for themselves in the future. There is no point accumulating excess gold as the AI will just demand it of us
New slaves start road to pink dot
Rojo -> temple

IBT
Celts est embassy
Germans building ToA

1) 1475BC
An English settler pair is NE of Seoul near pink dot :(
Warrior returns to Seoul and lux -> 0% :D
Whip temple in Rojo

IBT
Rojo temple -> granary (this will be 5fpt town soon)
English settler pair moves NE along river

2) 1450BC
Optimistically move towards pink dot :p

IBT
Seoul granary -> warrior for mp duty

3) 1425BC
Interestingly we get more money with taxman in BB and 10% science than scientist and 0% science. :crazyeye:

IBT
English settle Oxford north side of river 1E of pink dot - I think we have to go to 1SW of pink dot, this is only 2 tiles away, gets iron - will need kulcha fast
BB curragh -> temple
French building ToA
Iroquois complete ToA
America building GW

4) 1400BC
Buy English worker for 34g + 5gpt

IBT
Russia demands 4g, naturally we cave
Get boot from Brennus as planned pushes us further away
Seoul warrior -> warrior
French building GW & GLH

5) 1375BC
Curragh exploring east
Germans have worker for sale but we cannot afford

IBT
Russian settler pair arrives adjacent ours - too late
Massive barb uprising near Seoul
Americans and Iroquois in middle ages
Rojo expands borders - can now access FPs

6) 1350BC
Settle 5th town - Nampo between Oxford and iron -> temple
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Nampo.JPG

IBT
Russian settler pair goes north
Iroquois & Russinas building GW
Seoul worker -> warrior

7) 1325BC
Buy Iroquois worker for 6gpt + 10g, cant afford more expensive American one

IBT
Barb HM threaten Pyong :eek: :scared:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Barbs_threaten_Pyong.JPG
Iroquios, Americans & English building GLH, Celts GW

8) 1300BC
Scramble workers to safety

IBT
Iroquois gives exploring warrior the boot (unfortunately back to where already explored)
Barb HM all move south (must have found a juicier target) :dance:

9) 1275BC
Andro spots new borders to south :cool:

IBT
Barb horses return "only" 15 now :rolleyes:

10) 1250BC
Cant get contact with ? Babs / ?Byz to south (also yet to meet Hitties)
Havnt done anything to protect Pyong - could send Seoul's 2 warriors to arrive there next turn, could switch to rax and build next turn, could switch to sword and waste a few shields, or could sit tight and cross our fingers :undecide: . I leave it to next better player to decide
Gems connect in 3
Slaves are roading to Nampo - suggest they chop a forest to hurry temple next before roading (if do the forest S of Nampo it starts the road to our second iron we will want later)
Worker between Pyong and Seoul was chopping game forest till he fled, my suggestion is to get him to bring irrigation to BB's plains tile
Worker Wang should have irrigated eastern FPs first, but chickened out when barbs approached the area

I'm really worried about Oxford. I suppose flipping it on Deity is near impossible, we'll have to raze is somehow.

The barb horses... well, they'll take 1 gold, 2 citizens and half a granary. Crossing fingers for one spear aganst 15 horsemen seems futile. BTW, is the AI smart enough to not attack across river, from the tile SE of Pyong instead of S of it?

Oxford is a major PITA. :mad: Cost us the fish, but at least we can get the second iron without a colony. Oxford will have to go, but it's gonna be a while before we can muster up enough muscle to sack it. Unless Liz doesn't have iron, in which case three or four swords (???) should be able to take a size 1 or 2 city. And then try to hold on during her counter-attack. EDIT: Better sooner than later, I'm thinking.

As far as the rude uncivilized horses near Pyong, are we sure that they'll try to ransack a garrisoned city? I suspect that they'll just tear up some roads, scatter some empty beer cans, and then go home again.

Consider this a got it. Will contemplate the map for a while and play this weekend.

Putting a city on directly on the English border does not seem like a good idea to me. Getting beat to the spot could/should be time to evaluate options - maybe 1S or 2SW from current spot. To offset I suggest getting a temple in there right away. Or maybe we have to build another settler and try again someplace else? Going after England soon seems like suicide to me but what do I know? The perfect time to hit them is when they get to war with someone else first IMO.

Maybe we should have gone to blue dot last.

Do you guys typically buy workers at this time of game? I am not very familiar with this strategy, and it concerns me a little since we are not buying any techs. I know you are going to lose some gold to the AI but I think giving up all that gpt is going to make it hard to buy techs.

I agree we need to rethink our placement. We may want to figure out a spot to lock up the horses.

IMO buying workers early game is very destructive to the AI and costs no unit support long term. Native workers can be joined into cities later. The tech situation will not improve anytime soon but we'll need some pointy stick for that. This map is huge so fighting a faraway civ could result in some techs.

It's not that easy to get techs from a faraway civ unless they send tons of units at you. For that matter, I'd rather fight England. They were the weakest and last in tech during my turns, so we'd also have the least difficulties with them.

A couple of Swords would probably be enough to take that town, and if we survive their first blow we could get some techs in return. But this would have to be done fast, as we need both space for our city and techs.

An alternative is in fact building a city somewhere else, probably near that horses, but I like the war option better. I played a quick game today, that was more of a test than a game, and again I learned that it's not hard to capture a couple of towns, even on Deity. Of course England having no iron would help a lot, we better check it soon.

The AI enters MA 1350BC? :eek: That's fast and we're so behind it will be some tactics to get close.

Slave workers are very useful in the long run, but I wonder if gpt was the right strategy to get them? Time will tell, at least we have some free of expense units.

Those stacks of barbhorses area pain, and they screw up our plans and further slow us down. Why didn't those silly AI's sack that camp.

Oxford was unlucky and we have a city there now, so a few swords will have to take care of that and then we cross our fingers that we can sue for peace soon enough.

I'll see if I can muster up a few swords to do the job. This should be interesting. Will play tomorrow.

We did ask for restless barbs - not roaming (roaming would be too easy?)
I'm guessing that relocation of the city is not an option then?
If the war is coming then another statement of obvious: we'll need a few defenders.

@ zerksees
yes Nampo is a risk
Oxford is sufficiently far from English capital and hopefully corrupt enough that we should win a cultural war with them - esp if we use some chops. It may even work out better to get lib first depending on when that comes in.
Military war is the bigger risk I think. At least we can build swords.
Apologies for not stopping and discussing alternatives when we got beat there :blush:

Military war is the bigger risk I think.
I agree 100%, which I why I think we should move the city. This could also be considered "aggressive" settling by the AI and force the English to declare. (I have not seen any studies that show this aggressive settling causes war but I sure have seen it in games I have played).

Maybe I am overly worried about it. If the aggressive settle/war approach works on a deity 5CC, then I learn a new way to play the game.

Whatever gozpel decides is fine with me.

Whilst in retrospect I believe I ought to have sought the teams opinion regarding the site of our 5th city, I remain of the opinion that its chosen position is best.
A site to grab the horses is nowhere near as strong and considerably more corrupt.
I believe we can win control of the tiles Nampo reqires culturally. We need a strong 5th site and this provides the shields with plenty of commerce high river sites. It is a risk we may get dow-ed early and a risk we may lose an early war. If we survive the medium term we will be in a far stronger position in the current site.
Deity 5CC is a risk to start with

Oxford is sufficiently far from English capital and hopefully corrupt enough that we should win a cultural war with themThey're commercial, and on Deity AI corruption is lower than ours and their production is much higher. We can get that two tiles with a rushed/chopped temple, but they're going to build a Coloseum and a Cathedral very soon, and we won't want to keep up with that. A small attack force would be cheaper and more benefitial. They would have to cross the mountains in order to get to our lands, and by that time we could have a defensive force ready as well.

Well, here's the situation. The two granaries in current build can be switched to rax. The one in Pyong could complete on the IT with the loss of only one shield. We currently have no swords. None. England is to our west, and it would take them a bit to send someone out. I could have a handful of vet swords by turn 5-7 or so (I haven't done the math), but it's really the counterstike that's going to be a b**ch. The one good thing is that Liz doesn't have iron. She has horses, but no iron. Before I commit to switching out our grans and rolling the dice, I'd like to feel sure we have a consensus. Personally, I favor taking out Oxford early. It will almost surely never flip to us, and it's a big hole in our territory.

Even if it flips to us, we can't take it. Only 5 cities ever, no more for even a second.

So I think we have to try the pointy stick, take out Oxford and then hopefully we'll be able to sue for peace. It's tricky, but I can't see us move to another spot where we lose much in corruption and meanwhile Oxford grows strong.

So swap those granaries to barracks.

I think we have a good chance of sorting this out, if not we can always roll a new map. :lol:

All right then. War it is. I have one goal during this turnset -- kill Oxford and live to profit from it.

Preturn Switch Pyong and Rojo to rax. Not enough pop in Rojo to rush it yet. Not much else to do.

IBT The barb horses near Pyong ride away again (short attention spans, I guess). :) And 13 more come out of the fog near Oxford. :(

Turn 1 (1225BC) Rax complete in Pyong and is set to chunk out swords. Seol pops out a worker and is set to rax. Set the new worker to help with irrigating to BB. We meet Babylon. No trades available. Warriors out in the field clear some more black.

IBT The road connecting gems comes in, so we can grow a city to size 4 now. Babs asks us to stop trespassing. Hiawatha starts on the Hanging Gardens. As does Brennus.

Turn 2 (1200BC) The barb horses stayed put during IT, so our workers are safe to keep digging ditches. Start the two slaves up by Nampo to chop a forest to hurry along the temple there., covered by a warrior.

IBT Liz sends a warrior out of Oxford to take on the barb horse stack. If she keeps dedicating Oxford to this purpose, our job will be much easier. Germany gives us the boot. Probably not a good idea to demand his spearman take a hike. The barbs end up leaving Liz's boy alone and head out to make barbeque of our workers.

Turn 3 (1175BC) Time to make our lad with the shovels less tempting. Move them out of the way, back to Seoul to irrigate and to BB to do something useful, I'm not sure what, maybe mine a hill or something.

IBT Should I even keep track of how many times our scouting warriors get booted? It's a lot. Barbs lose interest and half ride off to harrass Liz again, the other group maybe to take the long way around to get our guys at BB. Iroq start SoZ, Germans start HG, as does Abe, and Theodora gets herself the Great Lighthouse. Byz with GL, hmmm ... Not good, but not our problem right now.

Turn 4 (1150BC) Worker moves and busting black.

IBT Liz would like our treasury, please. It's not time yet, so I hand over all 15g. Lots of wonderbuilding going on.

Turn 5 (1125BC) :sleep:

IBT Not much.

Turn 6 (1100BC) Shift some workers out of the way again. These barbs annoy me.

IBT :sleep:

Turn 7 (1075BC) Our first sword heads off to BB first to kill some horses and get up to elite.

IBT Well, my theory that barbs won't attack a garrisoned city is so not true. They do. Our warrior dies on the first attack :mad: and the rest of the stack pillages our entire treasury, kills two workers hiding there, and destroys the work on the temple. In the meantime, one regular Iroq warrior outside our border successfully defends against 7 horses before going down. Some days the RNG is not so nice.

Turn 8 (1050BC) Move our surviving workers to improve stuff around Seoul, covered by our sword.

IBT Celts, Russia, Germany, America, and Aztecs all have Literature now. I'm guessing that it'll have trade value with the lesser civs.

Turn 9 (1025BC) Turn our new citizen in Seoul to a tax collector for one turn. Our gpt deals expire next turn, and we can afford some happy juice then if we like.

IBT Barb horses kill our one sword. On the first attack. :wallbash: This is so not funny. Liz has some warriors moving through our territory, but I'm not sure what their intentions are.

Turn 10 (1000BC) Busting black, mostly. We still have one more civ to meet. Nampo can pop-rush its temple next turn. Oxford has had its first culture expansion, so I took one slave off of improving what is now an English tile. There are still 3 barb horses outside of BB -- look for them to do some pillaging on the IT.

A less than impressive turnset, I must say. I got us one sword, which I then killed, and lost us two workers plus our treasury. This is gonna be a tough one. On the plus side, we now have three rax cities.

No pic, as not much has changed. This is the >>SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz12_1000BC.SAV).

Liz has some warriors moving through our territory, but I'm not sure what their intentions are.

In higher levels, where the AI gets lots of extra units, they will send those units to hunt out barb camps, because the AI is stupid like that.:scan: :p Just remember to not tempt the AI units.

Even if it flips to us, we can't take it. Only 5 cities ever, no more for even a second.
It only took me a few times last game to get this. Not surprised, but should have realized that culture flips would be included. Too bad they don't offer "we don't want it raze the city" on a culture flip.

I am predicting some serious catch up on the tech tree in gozpel's next turnset. :)

On the plus side, we now have three rax cities.That's great, now just eait until each of them builds a Sword and we'll have an invasion force.
I am predicting some serious catch up on the tech tree in gozpel's next turnset. :)By the means of ... :hmm:

BTW, Good luck Gozpel! :)

I suggest putting out a few veteran spears to keep the barbs (and English) out of our cities too. If we get lucky we might get peace before the bulk of their force shows up but any horsemen will likely get a chance to hit us.

By the means of ... :hmm:
If I knew I would tell you. If I learned anything in the last game I played with gozpel - it is that he will find a way to catch up in tech.

Oh yeah - and never more than 5 cities - ever :nono:

Hehe, I don't think I can find any ways to trade yet, not until we have roads or other means to trade away our not yet connected resources and second gem.

Tough luck with the barbs SM.

Got it and will probably need a couple of days to play.

Good luck Goz.

Just a fyi I will be away tomorrow through Sunday.

Sorry for taking so long, it has been very busy here.

Pre-turn - MM a couple of cities to produce food, we need to grow as fast as possible. Wang is mining the iron, send him to do some irrigation instead.

We're building swords as according to our plans.

See that Lit is already known, can't get it for anything but huge gpt. We're owing England 5gpt for another 4 turns and Iroquois get 6gpt for 7 turns.

Warrior kill 1hp barbhorse, luxtax to 20%.

975BC - Frigging BH kills our warrior.

Heaps of Civs starts GLiB and the celts finish the Great Wall.

Whip temple in Nampo, darn English built Leeds by the coast and encrouch on us even more. We simply have to try for it and build a small military force and get rid of those towns. It will take a while though.

950BC - Hiawatha boot our scouting warriors and then starts HG. France starts SoZ.

Seoul sword -> another.
Nampo temple -> barracks.

925BC - Pyong sword -> worker.

900BC - England and Iroquois warriors take care of the last 2 visible barbhorses, thank you very much.

We now have 18gpt with luxtax turned off, but we can't get CoL for that. We still have to meet Byz and Hittites. Start researching Lit again on 40%, we'll need those libraries.

875BC - Pyong worker -> spear. The worker will chop the second gameforest towards another sword after that. Or do we want that granary there? Have to think about that.

France completes SoZ.

Pyong gets its second border-expansion.

850BC - Seoul sword -> sword.

Nampo's borders expands and we have control of the second iron, but Lizzy keeps the river-tile with BG.

825BC - Iroquois completes HG.

Drats, just when we got the rest of our gpt, Lizzy learnt CoL, so no twofers possible. Up science to 60%, Lit in 9t.

800BC - Hiawatha starts Sun Tzu.

Pyong is swapped to granary to help us grow quicker.

775BC - More civs are building Sun Tzu.

750BC - Aztecs completes the GLiB! Of course it had to be a Civ far away.

We can buy Lit from France for 4gpt and some change, I suggest we do so as it will save us 5 turns of research.

We have 5 swords in Seoul, but nothing else. I think we should build a few more swords, then a couple of spears to add to our lousy defense.

We have to get rid of those english towns around Nampo, then defend for our lives. If it doesn't work, we can probably kiss this game goodbye.

But if we succeed and can get peace soon, we have to build libraries. Seoul needs a temple as well.

Our curragh spots some borders:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goz12_border.jpg

Got it. How can we get someone else to make war with England?

? do we have embassy with Liz - if we do we could wait till she is at war with someone else. With Germans next door war cant be far away.

No embassy with England yet, but if we do the Lit-deal and turn off research for a couple of turns we can buy one. But personally I would just go to war and cross my fingers. :) Research is important now and we need a new gov.

For research, I think we want to go for Republic, so CoL and Philo at max possible (no deficit, please!). It will take a while, but it's in our best interest to get a new gov as soon as possible.

We should/could start a war against England with 6-8 swords to take out Oxford and Leeds. I'm not sure, but they have a few warriors and archers in the area, so it will be tricky and we might need maybe 8-10 swords?

Other swords/spears will have to defend especially Rojo, where English warriors are skulking along around our borders. IF we have to, take all swords from Seoul when the time comes and increase luxtax. The city is on 10-11spt, so when we go for it a couple of spears from there will do us good.

Is buying max poss techs from England with gpt, then making her angry with demands prior to telling her to get out or dow an allowable exploit of dumb AI?

To me it is.
Since we are weak she will probably fall for it.

Highlights:

Preflight. Follow gozpels advice and buy lit for 4gpt and 7 gold. Change Pyong to library. Looks like the worker chop and the shields will finish the library next turn.

730 BC – Argh – I missed by one shield in Pyong. Starting to move swords to Nampo

IBT - 5 civs start Sun Tzu

710BC - In turn 2 set science to 60%, was able to cut lux to 10%

670 BC – Had to cut science to 50% to avoid deficit research

650 BC – met the Byzantines. They lack Code of Laws. We were researching it, so we buy from France for 12 gpt +39 gold.

Make a little trade with Theodora. Buy philosophy, horseback riding, masonry giving code of laws, 8 gpt and 13 gold. Some civs lack republic.

Running real tight on gold so I could not research at minimum each turn, or even a scientist. Got about 3 turns of min research after that on republic.

590 BC – we have 4 gold and 0 gpt. Russia demanded 4 gold on the IBT. We give it. The next turn several new units produced. We are teeming with units with practically no gold to cover it.

Somewhere near here Sistine was started by the Celts

Decided to make the move on England.

570 BC – Drop 6 swords in the woods by Oxford.

550 BC – Three spears fall costing us one sword and Oxford falls. City is razed. We did get an elite promotion. Also took out one archer.

There is a fortified swordsman who can take out the warrior by Nampo if you choose.

Hope I have not sealed our doom.

Everything sounds good, zerksees, I can't see any signs of doom-sealing :)We are teeming with units with practically no gold to cover it. As soon as Lizzy's stack comes to visit our lands, unit support won't be our main concern.

I'm already up? Look like I'm having a :devil: turnset this time. I have time today and tomorrow morning too, but I'd like to hear some opinion from the team. If I'm able to sign peace before English troops arrive, should I do it or wait to get some techs?

I mean, if I feel I can kill them with our swords, I'll do so, but if there are too many, are we up any techs on England? Otherwise I'll just have to cross fingers, I guess, or ... give cities :hmm:

We have no techs the English don't. At 570 BC they were up three visible techs. On the tech front about the only hope you have for a bargaining chip is to get republic and give it to them. Since they don't have iron, I suspect that the best way out is to whack a bunch of their units. I made 4-1 in our favor. If you can keep up tose odds you'll be fine.

Obviously holding out to get techs is your call. For my part even trade for peace would be adequate.

Preturn:
I decide to attack that warrior, hoping for a promotion. Sword wins, but loses 2 HP and doesn't promote.
Enter

Turn 1: 530 BC
We're booted out of several nation, so I disband some exploring warriors that have nowhere to go.
Seoul Spear -> Sword, we're short on cash and unit support is a factor here.
3 (three) English warriors enter our territory. Nothing to fear so far.

Turn 2: 510 BC
Nampo Wall -> Sword
One English warrior moves back, one is killed, one new comes.

Turn 3: 490 BC
BB Temple -> Granary, Pyong Spear -> Sword
England moves 2 Swords and 1 Archer next to our border. All regular :p

Turn 4: 470 BC
It's become harder to find safe places for workers while still improving lands.

IT: a couple of English Galleys pass BB heading south.

Turn 5: 450 BC
Rojo Sword -> Sword

IT: 2 Swords attack Nampo, both die, one our Spear is now Elite
So far, it looks like we're going to have to go offensive to get any techs... :devil:

Turn 6: 430 BC:
Killed two Warriors with two Swords
Kill ratio so far: 6-0 :)

Turn 7: 410 BC
Kill one Warrior, two Archers and a Sword losing a Sword (Agains the Archer - RNG), then lose a Sword to a Spearman next to Rojo.
The English are trying to pillage our land, so I have to expose our Swordmen.

Turn 8: 390 BC
Lizzy is willing to talk. She'll give Mysticism for peace, and I say LOL.
Kill 1 Sword and one Archer. Ratio is now 11-2.
Not a Single English unit in sight. Look like we're free to attack them

IT: several English Galley move pass BB, now heading North.
The unload a single Sword next to BB. We have reinforcements there, but also a stack of unprotected workers.

Turn 9: 370 BC
Pyond Sword -> Sword, Nampo the same.
A lot of wonder starting.

IT: Sistine built in Entremont, that English sword kill a Spear but gets redlined.

Turn 10: 350 BC
Rojo grows and is about to riot, hire a Scientist.
Killed that Redlined Sword, so the ratio becomes 12-3, exactly as zerksees ordered. :)

Elizabeth will now give either Myst or Math, but not MM (that's all she has). I don't think we should accept that deal, because they are no threat to us. Let's just keep killing them and we'll get more out of it.

The front:
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/4217/goz12350bc4rf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Nice job Pentium.

Next turnset we should resume on some of our culture buildings and infrastructure.

Our original plans called for taking Leeds too. Since we are doing well we might add Liverpool to the list.

Taking cities won't really do much good IMO, unless we're planning to take out an entire civ (not yet and especially not England, we're going to need them later) because they'll just resettle them and get strong culture in them very soon. I don't have a lot of xCC experience, so I may be wrong, but that's what my feeling tells me. Maybe Leeds for its position, but not Liverpool, because they'll probably settle in the very same spot.

I'd rather focus on infra now, but more importantly on techs. First get all 3 techs out of England, and than I'd start building Libs only when we get Republic or just before it. AI's are building wonders like Sistine, and we can only hope they won't start Copernicus' quite soon.

BTW, speaking of Liverpool, does its name comes from "living pool", "pool for livers" or "pool, full of liver"? I've been wondering...

Played 2 so far:

gozpel
zerksees
Pentium

up next?
Whomp
Andronicus
Simple Monkey

Technically whomp is next but I am not sure how firm you guys want to be on roster order.

On Liverpool - I would hope that our cultural influence would cause them to settle on tile further away, plus they would have to start over on culture. Also - maybe it will net us another tech.

Whoever is next don't forget you will be freeing up some gold about halfway through your turnset as the gpt deals will be ending.

Excellent job both of you. :)

If it would be possible, I would like to get rid of all english towns that touches our borders, they might plop down new towns, but they have to build up their culture there again.

For libraries, we want them right away. They are cheap and culture is our best friend is this game. Then we want that temple in Seoul as well, plus all other happy-buildings te future allow us to build. They are almost more important than military :lol: well almost anyways.

And don't forget those markets when we have Currency. We need to get that peace soon, preferably with a couple of tech in the deal so we can concentrate on that infra.

What I wanna know is: Where did Liz all of a sudden get her iron from? We don't have the cash now, but we're gonna need embassies to see who's dealing what, among other things.

Agree that Leeds has to go. Liverpool and maybe even Norwich to make Liz cry and also push back her borders a bit. Her placement of Norwich makes me suspect that there's salt around there.

I'm not able to play until next Friday night at the earliest, so Whomp and Andronicus have a chance to show off first. :)

I just got back in town and have SGOTM10 to play tonight so I will try Tuesday or Wednesday if Andronicus can pick up first.

Go with first round roster Whomp
I'm likely up in SGOTM10 soon so no hurry

Leeds claims 2 tiles from us and Liverpool 1 so they must go :ar15:

Is buying max poss techs from England with gpt, then making her angry with demands prior to telling her to get out or dow an allowable exploit of dumb AI?

I forgot to reply to this before, I do allow this exploit in my games. I don't think it is as much of an exploit as palace-jumps and ship-chaining and after all, this one can backfire.

So if/when we're in the position to boot sour AI's after paying dearly for their techs, I have no problems with it. I've been stuck more than once paying good gpt for 20 turns to a civ I really wanted war with. So it is a gamble.

I also buy stuff for gpt and then try to steal, it's no real difference. It's up to us to be prepared for both war or peace for another 20t. :)

We can do lots of things, as long as it doesn't kill our reputation.

OK playing now. Sorry for the delay. It's been full on feast mode for Whomper. Goz when are you going to take a turn in the MTDG? You're letting Scout and Grahamiam have all the fun! :D

OK I'm going to stop here. We got an MGL. I presume we want to make a sword army but then again maybe not. Thoughts?

The options:

Rushing: FP isn't available, other buildings are too cheap to be worthy.

Building an Army:
a) A sword army: Good for pointy stick, probably enables HE.
b) Wait until Muskets, then go wacking around with H'wachas.

I'd go with a Sword army, because we want this war to end ASAP and still get all Lizzy's techs out of it. Then we can build HE when our cities run out of stuff to build.

Sword army. Pointy stick research. Pain and chaos (theirs). Please proceed.

I will support the sword army decision also. Besides whacking Lizzy's cities, it will be good insurance against any other mal-contented AI's who might cross us.

What are are other choices really?

I am guessing we will have plenty more leader opportunities in the future so don't worry about getting another one

Pre-turn: start by changing a couple builds since this war looks to be over soon. Rojo to lib in 2 and Pyong to granary in 11. Seoutl to lib in 4. Move some units onto the mountains at to set up a funnel to grass.

IT Sword attacks Seoul and our spear is flawless. (1-0). Iroquois start Leo's and KT. 3 more reg swords headed towards funnel.

330 Send both elite swords to Leeds. Whack a 2/3 spear with our elite sword (2-0). Move a spear to control the mountain at Seoul.

IT 2 swords move into the funnel. Rojo Lib--> gran
310 Attack Leeds and get a archer bombard and presto. We get an MGL. :dance: Take the leader back to Nampo to start an army. Load with 3 vets since Lil' Whomper can upgrade later and I'd rather use the army now. Whack another sword with the army heading back to Nampo. (3-0)

IT Lose a fortified spear to a reg sword that redlines (3-1). Odds were 60% we'd win. Dang. See some russian MI. :eek:
Get the heroic epic message. Archer bounces out of Leeds.

290 There's lots of swords around. Knock out 1 spears at Leeds. (4-1) Send the army over to end this madness.

IT Wow lots of English units. She comes for peace. Nah not yet. Seoul completes a lib and start a temple. The city needs some happiness.
270 Army hits Leeds and wins then a sword wins, gets a worker and razes the city. Send a warrior out to promo hunt beats a archer and a sword promotes hitting a sword. (8-1) Now she offers myst but nothing more. It's likely since they have some units on our territory but there's nothing I can do about that. Take Myst and peace for 20.

IT
250 MM around

IT Iroquois finish KT.
230[b] All our gpt deals expire so I turn up research on republic to 60% due in 20.

IT Volcano blows next to Leeds rubble. :lol:
[b]210 Disband the 2 reg warriors since our unit support is at +4gpt. Slow growth in Nampo to get the lib with no waste.

IT Bouncing bucket gran -->lib Nanpo lib--> gran Iroquois starts Cops. :( A russian tundra town finishes Leo's.
190 Muskets in Philly.

IT Hiawatha comes asking for 21g. He's close to us. Cave. Iroquois finish Cops. Volcano erupts and some lava lands on one of our mountains.
170 Nada mucho

IT Aztecs come for 20g. They're far away and we actually need the gold for deficit research on republic. Shut him down and he declares. Temple finishes in Seoul and start the HE.
150 Nada mucho

Holy moly, we don't have Repub yet and we're seeing muskets? :eek: We'll have to do some serious rubble-making if we're going to hope to launch in this one. Well, we can do some more pointy stick research in 20 I suppose. Or kill enough jaguars that Monty gives us something.

Nice job, Whomp!

I'm without internet access at home (I'm at work now), so I wont be able to get to this till the end of the week I think. If someone wants to go first thats fine, if folks are prepared to wait, I'll play it before the weekend (if I cant get internet back up I will need a skip, but will post from work tomorrow if that looks likely)

My internet is back but I've been called into do a double roster tomorrow so wont be able to play till Tues at earliest - sorry folks but I'll need to be skipped

Simple Monkey you are up

All right then. Jumping from the Axis of Evil 5CC SG, where we're the tech gods, to this one, where we're ... not. Will do my best not to let the jaguars smack us down. Will play some time this weekend.

Well, give your best to become as close in tech as possible. Killing Jaguars might be a good method for that. :p

And let's hope Andronicus gets his civ-time back :)

Too many RL issues piling up. I must very regretfully drop out of this one. Don't let me miss the next gozpel adventure, though.

How about a roster check.

Gozpel--UP however I'm not sure he's available during the week.
Zerksees Could be up if Goz can't play it.
Pentium
Whomp--just went
Andronicus-- needed a skip
Simple Monkey--RL kicking in

I'm back and notice no-one played since I asked for skip - if it's Ok to take another couple of days I can take my turn after all, wont be able to play for 24 hours though so if others want to play first thats OK. If no got it in next 24 hours I'll post mine :D

Hey - nice story guys - i canny wait for the saltpeter spots!

Got it = playing now :D

Well there is good news and there is bad news

First the good news
We are now the Korean Republic :beer:

Now the bad news
Cathy has allied with Monte against us:vomit:
Is this the start of a dog-pile?

Bought contact with Hittites and sold it on to others for coins. Hittites backward but able to get MM and a few gold coins from them
Maintained neg gpt most of turnset financing with above coins.
Gave in to extortions from Celts and Babs but didnt lose much gold as had run down our treasury to bare bones.

Only 1 battle with Aztecs - knocked off a warrior. Watched Aztec knights suiciding against American spears from the safety of our curragh

Turn log

Pre-turn
Pyong our most corrupt at 23% -> switch to court
MM to speed Rep

IBT
Aztec warrior appears S of Rojo
Rojo granary -> sword

1) 130BC
eSw d warr (1-0)

IBT
Brennus demands all our gold (4) - I cave, first remove our neg gpt

2) 110BC
disband warrior in BB to speed lib (had moved from Rojo)

IBT
Hammurababbi demands all our gold (1) - I cave - not worth it for 1g
Nampo gets culture expansion
Germans building Bach's

3) 90BC
nothing

IBT
French, Iroquios, Aztecs, Celts building Bach

4) 70BC
nothing

IBT
Americans dow Aztecs
Americans join the build Bach's party

5) 50BC
France will sell contact with Hittites - costs 5gpt, I pay
Hittites are backward - know MM but down lit, HBR, CoL, myst & phil
Trade myst + phil for MM + 4g (all they have)
Sell contact with Hittites to Russia and Germany netting 34g (put science to 90% for 2 turns to spend it)
Switch BB to harbour

IBT
Rojo sword -> sword
Russians building Bach's

6) 30BC
still no sign of Aztecs (dont think they will get past Americans)
Hittites now have HBR but no money to pay for lit or CoL

7)10BC
nothing

IBT
Pyong granary -> sword
French building Magellans

8) 10AD
Aztecs willing to negotiate, for a price ... Pyong ... I decline

IBT
Republic researched
Trade England Republic for maths + 8gpt
Set research for currency
Revolt -> 2 turn anarchy
Seoul riots -> scroll ahead

9) 30AD
Trade maths to Hittites for 9g (still up rep, lit and CoL)

IBT
Aztecs and Russians MA against us
Russians say howdy with a knight

10) 50AD
We emerge into Republic
Currency due in 6 @ -7gpt, 29 in treasury

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Russian_front_50AD.JPG

Time to blat Cathy (I hope). Unlike Aztec war this will be no phony one.
If Cathy brings anyone else into the war (esp Germany, Iroquois, French or English) we could be in deep trouble.

And most important, never tickle the AI's nerves. We are meek and humble, we grovel in the dust and we pay tribute.

I suppose this bit of advice from goz11 should have been repeated at the start of this one.

We'll probably find a way out though - this situation just makes it a little harder.

gozpel I think you are up next

Finally weekend and I've got it.

Too bad SM dropped out (you'll be invited in the next game, if I start one) :)

No need to point out the obvious, we're in trouble and I'll try to keep us alive.

Edit: Erh? I would if I could find the save?

Edit: Erh? I would if I could find the save?

The computer gremlims have gobbled it up :mischief:

Translates - last player had a senior's moment and forgot to post it (if he can remember he will post it as soon as he gets home from work in about 2 hours)
:blush:

You know I could have seen that it was missing any time in the last several days. I'm 39 - is that old enough to have a senior moment?

THE SAVE

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Goz-12,_50_AD.SAV

Ah, the joy of fighting a Deity civ with a Chieftain-worth military (plus an army, so we do have an advantage)... :)

One diety civ may be manageable but if we get dogpiled ...

One civ is surely manageable with our military, because they'll just keep sending units in a row, and we have time to kill them all and then heal. But you are right, as soon another neighbouring civ enters the war on their side, we're toast.

I think we must keep good relations with as much civs a possible. MA's are probably too expensive for us at this point and would set us back in the future (gpt), if possible at all.

gozpel you are still up. Are you going to have a chance to get it this weekend?

Our roster:

Gozpel Up
Zerksees
Pentium
Whomp
Andronicus
Simple Monkey

Since gozpel hasn't responded for a while, will you take it, zerksees?

I have one other SG at the moment but I will take it in a couple days. I have been waiting for gozpel since he started the game after all, but he must have some real life issues.

Pre-flight: move a couple units – put one on the worker stack with the spear to prtoect from Russian knight. Rest looks good.

IBT – Russian knight defeats our spearman on the mountain

70 AD
We take out the knight with our army
Thinking about making peace with Aztecs. They are so far off there are no prospects of hitting them soon and they will just drag everyone in against us. By lowering the science slider I can get them to a demand of 18 gpt atm.

IBT –
English are menacing – many units are moving into our territory
Rojo: sword -> catapult
Nampo: granary -> spear

90 AD
Bite the bullet – give Aztecs 50 gold and 15 gpt for peace
Not sure what English are up to, but I buy currency for 25 gpt as an insurance policy.

IBT –
Theodora demands our 3 gold – which we give
Celts and France sign MA vs Russia
Pyong: sword -> market
Palace expands – going up

110 AD
Lets go tear up some Russian improvements

IBT –
It is now apparent that the English are also at war with Russia, and they are headed north to get the Russian city there.

130 AD
Since English are passing change Rojo to market

IBT
Bouncing Bucket: harbor -> market

150 AD
Voila – road to gems is done and we have a harbor to ship them from. Shopped around, sold them to France for polytheism and 2 gpt

IBT
Celts and Aztecs sign MA vs America
More English vs. Russia action
America and France join MA vs. Russia

170 AD
One English sword outside our capital and we have only one defender. I hate this.

IBT
The English sword moves on probably to Russia
Celts and Germany sign MA vs. Byzantines
Seoul: heroic epic -> market

190 AD
Finally Catherine will talk but she wants GPT. She is under the dogpile so we will wait

210 AD
Take out 2 Russian longbows with our pillaging army and a spear with an elite sword

IBT before 250 AD – French start Smiths and Iroquois start Shakespeare’s

250 AD
Finally Russia will take peace and give us a few coins. Parlay this into a buy of construction for 25 gold and 21 gpt. Our free tech is engineering. Everyone except Hittites has monarchy, feudalism and monotheism.

Sorry if you guys don't like it but early war not in the cards for me. Avoiding dogpile is in the cards and so is building our infrastructure.

We could sell our iron to Aztecs for feudalism and 100 gold or monotheism and 800 gold. Check around to see if there are better deals elsewhere.

I have a sword on our extra iron – now the English horde has passed I put it there to cover it until the workers arrive.

My advice is to sell both irons (one now and the other when it is hooked up) and get a couple techs out of it. If we can get to a place where there is some tech disparity in that big group of AI we can catch up quickly.

Nice set Zerks. Man, I feel horrible for not caving to the Aztecs. Sorry everyone. :blush:

Gozpel
Zerksees
Pentium UP
Whomp on deck
Andronicus
Simple Monkey

Whomp - thanks.

On not caving - we got out of it with little bad effects, so nothing to worry about. If he had put down a city nearby we probably could have gotten out for free by razing the city.

It was his deep pockets that I was worried about - not his units.

With a litte tech wizardry we will be right back in it.

First, a big Thank you for handing me a peaceful empire :thumbsup:

My advice is to sell both ironsThat's a tactic I use a lot, and I'll surely do so. We're lucky to have two sources, it'll make catching up easier.

I'll have a lot of time on Sunday, so I'll try to dig up my tech wizardry skills until then. Nice to know we can get a tech as expensive as Feud for Iron. :)

@Whomp: don't worry, after I'm done you won't be the one feeling horrible :)

Celts and Aztecs sign MA vs America
America and France join MA vs. Russia
Celts and Germany sign MA vs. ByzantinesMe likey :devil:

Hey dudes, I have no computer whatsoever now. My older back-up fried the weekend when I played my turns. Now both old comps are at a friends house, he will try to put something together with the working parts and he will tell me how it goes next week.

I would've informed you earlier if I could've gotten to a comp with internet, most ppl around here don't worry about internet since they are busy working and I had to go to town and the library to found out what was going on here.

My turns was nothing of what zerksees'es turned out to be, my was a bit more eventful. :)

Well done anyways zerksees, those deals are great.

Now what we want is embassies with ALL nations, that plus markets and all happy buildings in our cities. If we can get cathedrals and colloseums before the next war, we still have a chance. We're almost an era behind in techs, but I have seen worse, we're still alive!

I'll buy a new computer in 2 months or so and I can only hope my mate figures out to make a working one of the crap i gave him, or else I won't be able to play at all for a while.

Argh! Withdrawals.........Not being able to connect to the internet is a pain, I never knew how much I depend on that and this site.

Keep the game moving please, it's not MY game, it's ours. I'll be back next week if everything goes right, if worse comes to worse I'll go a rent a computer for a couple of months.

Make the deal zerksees mentioned -> iron for a tech, I think Feudalism is best as it is the most expensive, then research Invention. But we need those markets and the happy buildings now, so thread carefully.

I could under my turns also sell both our gems to gain something, look at this and see if you can get anything from it.

Thanks peeps, for your patience and just play on, I'll be back next week I hope or at least I go to town again and update you about my situation. I've played CIV for years and now I actually get physically sick when I can't.

It's sad.

My time is running out here, Whomp -> Can you please tell the crew in SGOTM about my situation, next week I can tell them myself I suppose, but I'm supposed to be the skipper. You get the role for now, Whomp. :salute:

Hey goz, nice to hear from you. Remember to be very nice to that mate of yours! :)

Sorry guys, I had to work today, so I'll get the save tomorrow. It's better to be patient than to become one. ;)

Pre-turn, 250AD: Nampo needs an Aqua more than a Market, due in 4. Our empire is nice, while the income is not. We only have 1 lux and we can trade for 2 more, but unhappiness is not a problem with 20% luxtax.

Neither Abe nor Brennus will sign RoP. Did we brake it?

3 workers are roading an unused tile next to Seoul, but there is only one slave building the road to our second Iron. First I thought that was very bad, but I changed my mind quickly, because every civ except Aztecs have Iron. That's something I don't like, because we can only sell one at a time even though we'll have 2 soon.

Sell Iron to Monty for Feud, Wines and 39 gold. He has 1300 gold but no gpt. Being a 5CC, it's profitable for us to sell native luxes and buy foreign ones. Like this:

That was our only source of Gems. 75 free gold anyway! Our Gems are valued at 10gpt, so I couldn't buy any tech with them. ImageShack has some problems with me, so the screenie is attached at the bottom.

Set lone scientist in Royo to Invention. Enter.

IT: Babs declare on America, so do Hitites
France and America sign MA against Babs
The French are building Shake's.

Turn 1, 260AD

CA2 tells Germany is now Demo, and we can buy Iron now.
Everybody except Hitites have Inv. But they do have 25 gold, so I sell Poly to them.

Things are about to get better, we'll have Markets in 1, 2, 3 and 5.

That's it, Enter

IT: England captures previously Russian Magadan
France declared on America
France and Celts sign MA against Byz, which are building Bach
Pyong Market => worker
Novgorod finishes Bach's.
Americans build Smith's

Turn 2, 270AD: Absolutely Nothing.

IT: Pyong Worker -> Colosseum. Nothing better to build.
Rojo Market => Court
Orleans finishes Shake's
Our curragh down at Celts' dies due to my miscount (yeah, what's a point of movement between idiots?)

Turn 3, 280AD: Nothing with a capital N again.

IT: Seoul Market -> Colosseum, Nampo Aqua -> Market

Turn 4, 290AD: Seoul now needs a scientist, so Rojo's one can go back to work on a hill.

IT: Iros declare on America, then they establish an Embassy.

Turn 5: Nothing again.

IT: England and Celts sing MA against Byz,
England and Iro against America
BB Market -> Temple
Our palace has a new section

Turn 6, 310AD: We can now buy Mono. Joan give the lowest prize, I guess because she values our map the highest. She sell Mono for 240gold, 43gpt (we have 65 @ 8.0.2) and a WM.
Colosseum builds changes to Cathedrals.

Turn 7: Nothing

IT: Iro and Germans sign MA against Babs

Turn 8, 330AD: Turns are pretty much "look around, check CivAssist, Enter". I keep selling techs to Hitites so we get some money and maybe a trade partner soon. He's just out of the AA just now.

Turn 9: French are Industrial. We're less than an era behind. With that much AI war, we're pretty much winning.

IT: Aztecs and Iros sign MA against Babs

Turn 10: Aztecs and Germans are Industrial too. France has a worker for sale. I wouldn't buy one.
Hitites suddenly have 248 gold. I'd sell a tech for it before their negative gpt eats it. As I said, we want a trading partner ASAP.

Summary: Pretty uneventful set of turns. I have that bad feeling that I didn't actually do anthing. Maybe there's wasn't much to be done, but still.

Pre-turn, 250AD: Nampo needs an Aqua more than a Market, due in 4. Our empire is nice, while the income is not. We only have 1 lux and we can trade for 2 more, but unhappiness is not a problem with 20% luxtax.

Neither Abe nor Brennus will sign RoP. Did we brake it?

3 workers are roading an unused tile next to Seoul, but there is only one slave building the road to our second Iron. First I thought that was very bad, but I changed my mind quickly, because every civ except Aztecs have Iron. That's something I don't like, because we can only sell one at a time even though we'll have 2 soon.

Sell Iron to Monty for Feud, Wines and 39 gold. He has 1300 gold but no gpt. Being a 5CC, it's profitable for us to sell native luxes and buy foreign ones.
The reason there were no markets is that we just got currency
The reason there is only one worker on the way to the second iron is that I could not get a unit onto the actual iron tile until the last turn.
I don't recall breaking ROP so not sure why we can't do that?

Nice trick on the lux trade - I always knew there was some disparity there but could not put together how to capitalize on it.

Overall this looks good to me. :goodjob: Stay with it. With any luck some of the AI will fall off tier 1 and we can barter techs to catch up.

Are we still sitting on a lot of gold? If so I recommend cranking up the science - it will reduce our cost on invention. It might be a chance if an AI comes knocking, but will they really demand all our gold?

Whomp you are next.

OK I got it and will play tomorrow.

The reason there is only one worker on the way to the second iron is that I could not get a unit onto the actual iron tile until the last turn.Yeah, I said it's not a bad move anyway because that iron is pretty useless ATM.

I don't recall breaking ROP so not sure why we can't do that?When I offered 140 gold for it they were insulted. Maybe we're just too small for it.

]Are we still sitting on a lot of gold? If so I recommend cranking up the science - it will reduce our cost on invention. It might be a chance if an AI comes knocking, but will they really demand all our gold?Maybe. I think we could have got Inv in 20 turns at a few negative gpt before buying Mono. But buying is still cheaper and gpt deals also protect us. Also, we get an additional tech every 50 turns this way.

Now what we want is embassies with ALL nations, that plus markets and all happy buildings in our cities.

I think this is probably what should be done with any extra gold - before putting it to research

Pretty quiet turns for me.

Pre-turn: Establish a couple embassies with 2 big dogs. Germany and Russia.
IT Celts and Hittites MA vs. Germany. We have a nice battle between the Russians and English going on our turf. England and Germany MA vs. Hittites. Germans start Newts.
360 MM temple at Bouncing Bucket to commerce..
IT Iroquois dema nd a TM and 21g. OK.
370 A gpt deal has expired. Give WM, 9gpt and 3g to Iroquois for dyes. Income increases from +39 to 50gpt. I can do the same with the Americans but I'll wait on the caths.
IT We extend our Peace Treat with the Aztecs. Babs and Russia make peace. Iroquois Cav appears. Oh my. Bouncing Bucket from temple to rax.
380 Establish a embassy in England.
IT Celts and Russians make peace. See a Iroquois leader running around. Seoul finishes cath and starts a MI. I figure we can disband other units. French finish Magellans. Germans switch Newts.
390 Establish an embassy with France. Trade 10gpt, 16g and WM for gems to America
IT Russia/Aztec peace. England/Germany MA vs. Babs. Celts start Newts.
400 Do a little short rushing at Seoul and Bouncing. Renegotiate our 2gpt for gems with France and get invention for gems and 49gpt.
IT Iroquois and Celts MA vs. Byz. Nampo finishes a market and starts a Cath, Bouncing rax to cath and Seoul MI to MI.
410
IT England and America peace. Hittites and America peace.
420 Nada
IT Aztecs and Germans MA vs. Hittites. England and Germany vs. Celts. France and Russia peace.
430
IT
440
IT Germany demands a TM and 22g. K. Germany and Iroquois MA vs. Byz
IT
450 Renegotiate our peace deal with Russia down from 21gpt to WM, 6gpt and 11g.

I can post the pictures of the embassies if you'd like tomorrow. Too tired tonight.

Looks good Whomp.

Andronicus you are up. Its your turn to try and pull off some tech wizardry.

Echoing gozpel's comments I suggest we finish all happy buildings before rebuilding military. If we run out of improvements we should probably build some bombard units.

We have another 40gpt deal coming up this turnset with France. BTW the English are getting gassed sending out all their units towards Russia. They're lost a lot of quality units.
BTW I building MI and disbanding spears but colloseums are still an option for some cities. We could also use some buchets since we have none.

Got it but it may take a few days - if nothing doing 48 hours I'll post a skip

(its school hols and the kids hog the good computer)

Hey dudes, I'm back.

My 2 old cans are one working unit now, or at least I hope so... It's stable enough and I only need a few drivers to avoid conflicts. I'd be set up by tonight my time, I reckon.

I'm eager to play and can take it before Andy, if that's alright? Weekend and all, I have the time and the computer finally. :)

The game: I see it finally sunk in to some of you how important deals and luxes/resources are, those deals were excellent. Very clever thinking lads!

We need more of that stuff to catch up and World wars are in our favor, to slow tech-pace down. It looked like things calmed down a bit lately, we might try to start WW3 if we have the funds, but never go recklessly about and destroy our rep. That's our biggest bargain chip and we can't lose it.

Again, well done.

I just figured we're lacking a proper workforce and I might have to rectify that. It will cost us, but they'll be needed shortly, so if I do something drastic like dropping our pop it's for the better good. In the long run, that is.

If Andronicus can't take it tonight my time, I can play tomorrow early and hopefully sort out a long term plan as well.

All in all, we're alive. We're building happy buildings and might soon get uni's, that will help us tremendously.

As for military, we only need a few. If we get run over, we're dead anyways, so let's spend our resources on city stuff. When the time comes, we can concentrate on all out mil. builds, but for now we need culture and happiness.

And yeah, for a future war, we need an enemy that pressure our borders - Liz, Bismarck or Cathy, either one is good to put a dent in, but we have to be very careful. Think about this!

Edit: Thanks for the embassies, Whomp!

I've had a look at the save but not played - you take it first goz

My thoughts - there are 4 or 5 civs still in middle ages - I wonder if buying some techs may get us to finding out if there are any tech trading possibilities. Gifting Hittitites up to almost our level may result in possible trades with them in the future - they are no use behind us and broke.
I think our requirement ASAP must be to get all cities up to size 12 and working fully developed tiles. We have way too few workers. Our capital is wasting food when skimming workers (or even a settler) will allow it to prop up our slower growing cities. Once rails and hospitals come workers will again be very important. Courts also pay for themselves and more. I would build these or workers before colloseums.
I note French military average to us, rest as expected are strong. Keep an eye on whether French are going out. They are at forefront technologically - is there an opportunity there?

And yeah, for a future war, we need an enemy that pressure our borders - Liz, Bismarck or Cathy, either one is good to put a dent in, but we have to be very careful. Think about this!



We need one to be dogpiled on so we can join the dogpile - preferrably one of the more backward (ie Liz or Cathy rather than Bismark)

You should be able to sell iron this turn. During my turns Monty was the only one without it, but now with that many wars there might be some more.

BTW, Welcome back! :)

We need one to be dogpiled on so we can join the dogpile - preferrably one of the more backward (ie Liz or Cathy rather than Bismark)
Liz would be an easy target since the majority of her offensive units have crossed our borders and have been wasted by Cathy. However, we'd need to be careful of Hiawatha who's fighting Cathy too. He has cavs.

Welcome back Goz. We had a decent finish in SGOTM10...though nothing like Andronicus and Team Liz. :cool:

Liz would be an easy target since the majority of her offensive units have crossed our borders and have been wasted by Cathy. However, we'd need to be careful of Hiawatha who's fighting Cathy too. He has cavs.By the time we can put together a succesful invasion force, both Cathy and Liz could build a lot of units. I think we should now just watch closely for dogpiles and jump in when we have some army.

gozpel, please give us a signal you are still online. We are waiting for you.

Guys, just letting you know, I'll be away from today through August 15.

gozpel must be having connection problems again. Andronicus can you take this next?

gozpel must be having connection problems again. Andronicus can you take this next?

Sure , after the Madagascans

My apologies, but to keep this SG from stalling I need to ask for a skip. RL hectic at moment and all night session to complete COTM 26 before deadline, then finding Madagascan turn taking a looong time means I wont have time for this till next week :sad: .

Andronicus - needs another week or so
Simple Monkey - dropped out
gozpel - missing atm
zerksees
Pentium - off til 8/14
Whomp - just played (on July 12)

I have not decided if I will take it before you Andronicus. Check back in a week or so and you will be next either way.

RL still biting hard - I dont see myself able to play my turn in the coming weeks, sorry

Andronicus any chance you will have time to play this one?

Andronicus any chance you will have time to play this one?
sorry but I'm short on civ time and trying to give priority to SGOTM11 :sad: . If this is still going in a months time I think I will have more time then.

:sleep:

Last night I decided to dust this one off and play a turnset. It's been long enough.

pre-flight:

- Yuk all but the Hittites have every conceivable tech we can reach so there are no trade possibilities.
- Notice the Iroquois have over 13,500 gold!
- We have 4 native workers (about 7 slaves), 1 spear, 14 sword, 1 army, 4 med inf.
- Change Pyong to put out a worker

IBT
-Aztecs come calling to renew iron for wines trade. We throw in 11 gpt and 6 gold to get theology. (we are working on gunpowder at min so why not work the other side of the tree)
-Russia deal for furs is up, pay 11 gpt to get furs
-France and Celts sign MA vs Germany
-Iroquois demand 22 gold and territory map. We oblige.
-Pyong: worker->colosseum (decided not to build another worker since almost all our worked tiles have already been improved)
-Our volcano to the north is active

460AD
- Sell gems to Aztecs collecting 32 gold and 15 gpt
- Try to buy a needed tech from anyone but not enough gold
- Did I mention the Hittites are also a 5CC - though probably not by choice;)

IBT
nothing much

470 AD
- Sell territory map around the horn. All of them were paying one gold and no more.
- Still no techs to buy

IBT
- Byz and Celts make peace
- Celts are building Newtons!

480 AD
- 208 gold and 41 gpt still not enough to buy a tech

IBT
- Bouncing Bucket is rioting - should have checked mapstat as our pop growth made unhappiness

490 AD
- Buy education from France for iron, 240 gold and 29 gpt. All AI except Hittites have music theory, astronomy and banking so no trading opportunities. I plan to get banking next so we can build some banks and increase gold

IBT
-Iroquois and Babylon make peace
-Russia and Germany make peace

500AD
nothing much

IBT
-Hittites and Germany make peace

510AD
-Do some MM to increase gold a little. We now show +66 gpt. Still not enough to buy a tech

IBT
-Seoul:colosseum->university

520AD
- Iroquois now hold Tver (just off our east border). Maybe they will take Orenburg and we will get more horses

I'll finish the rest over the next few days.

I did disband two swords to offset the cost of new buildings. Cities building cathedrals, colosseums and now will start universities.

Upon further review and reflection, I am going to fish around for some military alliances to join. I plan to go against far away civs so we won't have any real fighting. If we can get one dogpiled then maybe that civ will fall behind in tech and help us catch up during peace negotiations.

It is apparent that gozpel is not back online and may not be coming back. Is anyone else still interested in continuing with this game?

I can from time to time. I've tried cutting back by focusing on 1 turn games(PBEM and Pitboss) but will try to get a set in with a "got it" if that's ok.

OK Whomp - since there is no deadline on this game you can pick it up whenever you like. At this point anyone in the game who is interested can pick up a turnset

520 AD – continues

No one will sell us banking or gunpowder, even with 66 gpt and 105 gold. All we have left to sell that I can see is our allegiance.

Identify AI with no current deals: Babylon, Germany, England, Celts and Byzantines.

Ah the Byzantines are at the other end of the continent. Babylon is also a candidate as there is a buffer.

Fish around diplomacy screen. Find France is interested in paying for a military alliance with us. Several others including Iroquois want us to pay them for a military alliance.

France sells us banking, we give military alliance against Byzantines, 45 gpt and 96 gold.

I could have saved another 12 gpt or so by adding a militray alliance against Babylon, but decided to ease into this approach.

Switch Seoul, Rojo, and Pyong to build banks. The other two are finishing cathedrals, then they can build banks.

IBT
Hittites and England make peace, as do Babylon and Germany.
Palace expands

530 AD
Not much

IBT
Babylon and America make peace

540 AD
Lincoln is now in the industrial ages. I don’t know the Iro and Aztec faces well enough to know if they made it yet.

IBT
America and Celts make peace. The peacemaking trend is getting annoying
Finally more war: Aztecs and Iroquois sign MA vs Russia.

550 AD
Again not much. I have to retract prior comments. We could probably use more workers ATM. France has four in their capital but I leave it to next player to buy them or not.

We have score of 777, passing Hittites score, which is now 763, and we are up to 11th place. Woohoo.

Summary:
Acquired three techs (theology, education and banking), started a war with Byzantines to help finance technology, moved to 11th place, improved tiles, disbanded two swords, built a worker and a couple improvements.

Toughts:
The next tech should be gunpowder, maybe we will have saltpeter that we can sell for techs.
We are still so small that we need to give in to AI demands and avoid being a target.
I would build banks then colosseums then universities. Once all 5 banks are done we should put up wall st too.
Tech pace is scary fast but I think we can catch up if we stick to making gold and not war units. At some point all these wars will weaken an AI and give us some trading opportunities.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/Goz12_550AD.SAV

Once all 5 banks are done we should put up wall st too.

May have to wait a little while yet - Wall St requires 5 stock exchanges not just banks ;)

May have to wait a little while yet - Wall St requires 5 stock exchanges not just banks ;)
:hammer2: Thanks - How long have I played this game?

I couldn't grab it this weekend but will really try within the week with a "got it".

Ease up man! You're turning it into a Space series style SG!

Ease up man! You're turning it into a Space series style SG!
For whatever reason we are without our leader, so that has undoubtedly slowed this game. We have waited long enough and I think now we should move forward. I can hope the pace will be a little faster than the Space games from here on in.

Whomp I made 3 techs in 10 turns, let's see if you can match or beat that.

I hope the others still want to continue.

I suggest Whomp or zerksees as leader of this SG

I probably will join after two weeks, after finishing up some tests.

OK I got it and will work on 10ish.

IT nada. Nampo finishes its cath and starts a bank.
560 AD workers work.

IT France and Aztecs MA vs. Russia and Hittites.
Bouncing Bucket finishes cath and starts a bank for Wall St.
570 AD Couple more banks after this turn. Think about signing against Hittites since they're not even seen on the map but can't find anything compelling to do it.

IT :lol: Hittites and Iroquois (who are huge) MA vs Russia. We lose our dyes but renegiate it by paying the same 9gpt along with an additional 3g. Pyong and Rojo finish their banks and start unis. Babs start Newts.
580 AD Gpt cranks up from 20's to 56gpt. Hittites are ancient compared to us but since they were just paid to start a war against Russia I take their 300g for feud so he'll build units. I don't want to have tributes so short rush a LB at Nampo for 72g reducing the bank build by 2 (11 now), pick up two French workers from the french for 223g, and since theAztecs are gigantic I establish a embassy for 117g.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8638/aztecsmy6.jpg

That leaves us 14g in the bank.

IT Hittites coming for monotheism. Cave since they are a non factor and may actually help trading. Celts finally get in the battle as they MA with the Aztecs against the Russians. Babs MA with Iroquois vs. Byz. England MA with Iroquois vs.America. Hannover finishes Newts.
590 Short rush a LB for 64g in Bouncing and switch back to bank due in 10. We'll have all our banks now in 10. Our deal for gems and 49gpt ends with France next turn. We also are have gems coming from America. Try to renegotiate but the deal is too high. I do a deal with the Babs for 11gpt and 8g. We may need that extra gem next turn.

IT Byz ask for an audience. They want peace but our MA is still rolling. Germany signs a MA with the Iroquois vs. America. Iroquois and France MA vs. Hittites.
600 Trade our TM, gems, 54g and 59gpt for powder with the Germans since they're annoyed and most of the other big guys are polite. We don't have salt. :( The English have two sources close to our borders though.

IT Iroquois and Germans MA vs. Celts and Hittites. Babs and Iroquois sign a MPP. Babs and Iroquois MA vs. Celts and Hittites. Iroquois declare on the French. America and Russia make peace. Bank finishes in Seoul and start a uni.
610 AD nothing

IT nothing. Wow.
620 Short rush a LB in the capital and get uni in 3.

IT Aztecs ask for a MA vs. Hits. Denied. Babs declare on Russians. Americans make peace with France.
630 Trade for spices with Celts for 11gpt and 62g.

IT Celts and Aztecs MA vs. America. Aztecs and Celts MA vs. Iroquois. oh my. Babs and Iroquois MA vs. Aztecs.
640 Nada.

IT Iroquois and Russia peace.
650 Rush the uni in Pyong since it's at a odd number..

Summary
Not having salt is a problem. We may have to join a war to get it from the English. We're nearly finished with our builds. Buchets for upgrades?

Thanks Whomp looks good.

We may have to take a chance and build up cash so we can buy techs. I need to look at the save before I have any more to say. [edit]

Andronicus or Pentium - give us a "got it" and take a turn.

I think I messed up on research. I just realized I didn't set research after we learned gunpowder and it defaulted to Astro. We only had a few turns in so anyone who'd like to change it please do.

Mr Whomp,
Minor point there on research - good to get a "heads up" on it. We may change it on the next turnset.

Bucephalus has decided to join us on this adventure and will play the next turnset. In the next couple days I am going to look at the save and put up some suggestions and maybe a plan. Any input would be appreciated.

Spamming to subscribe:)

For Bucephalus and any other future new team members:
This game is to be won by a space race, but first we have to get there. This is going to require some good diplomacy and trading. From my experience this will require more than checking F4 every turn. Some general tactics:
1) Keep trading rep intact. This means we are not going to break any per turn deals in the middle. Be careful deals do not get broken by lost trade routes, which include cut roads or loss of harbor. I doubt we will lose our harbor but if our trading partner does the deal is just as dead.
2) Give in to AI demands for quite a while. With 5 cities, we are small and must grovel in the dust. This can be irritating when giving in, but any demand rejection must be thought through very carefully. Also this means if we have something of value, we had better be on top of it and trade it away right away before someone bullies us out of it. There should be a "give in" and "do not give in" list of AI at the start of each turnset.
3) Creative trading. We will trade everything we can. Because we are 5CC, we can buy lux for less than we can sell them for, so investigate selling our lux and buying an AI lux to gain gold. At the present it seems we can sell military alliances for things. Just choose weak AI as the target and get as much as you can.
We also have to keep up in tech. At the moment we are behind, but we are going to catch up by finding a tech disparity between the AIs that will help us trade our way back. Eventually a second tier of AI will appear (this means the top group is at one level of tech and the second is further back). Once we catch the second tier there will be a giant leapfrog as we buy and sell our way back. In the meantime we need to maximize gold to buy techs as fast as we can. When picking the next tech, either find a tech that will help us make more gold, has a good probability to allow us to find the disparity in techs between the AI, or reach some strategic point.
We may also employ some direct tech steals right after signing big GPT deals, in hopes of getting a DOW and getting out of the gpt payments.
4) I envision winning the space race by completing the conquest first all except one AI one city, then building the ship. If this does not pan out, there are plenty of other ways to do it. To me it is too early to tell which may need employed - be it sabotage, ROP rape, resource denial to keep an AI from launching.
5) I am hopeful the AI will get bogged down fighting each other, and therefore drain each other of units and slow the tech pace.
6) The self imposed limit is 5 cities, and we shall own no more than 5. This means razing cities we take.
7) General creativity. There may be unique situations that we can capitalize on - be it geography, trading or whatever. The key is to see them and utilize them to our advantage. This is not something that can be easily described or taught


For the present situation here are some comments:

As usual Whomp is on top of the trading situation. I tried to find something to buy or trade to allow us to buy a tech but could not find anything. I could get a small fee from the Germans (IIRC) for an MA against Hittites but not enough to secure a trade. I encourage you to try it too.

The good news is that on the first turn two trade deals are ending giving us another 17 gpt and iron to sell. Hopefully this will be enough we can make the trade. See if you can get a required tech in exchange for the iron. The Aztecs are selling us wines. It would be helpful to renew that but if not the Americans have gems we can buy for 110 gold and 9 gpt

On turn 4 we have another trade deal ending that will give us another iron and 29 gpt to deal. With luck this will be enough to get another tech. If we have to sit on the iron a few turns build a few pikes and some medieval infantry.

On turn 7 (or 8?) our MA with France vs. Byzantines is up. As soon as it is over start negotiating with Byzantines to see if you can get some techs.

I know it is dangerous to keep gold sitting around but it might be worth the chance to accumulate gold for a few turns to help improve our chances to buy. If you are concerned about this, turn up the science rate since we have some universities. Buying a half-finished tech is usually cheaper than buying one we have not started yet.

With excess capacity in cities we don’t have any improvements to build, we should build trebuchets – I would say we want at least a dozen. Eventually we will want to acquire the horses in the NE from the Russians, and the saltpeter to the west from the English. Each of these will fall to us with border expansions if we raze the cities. I lean toward going after Russia first since they are at war quite a bit, though it will probably not be a good idea to do so in the next 10 turns.

Bouncing Bucket can use some workers to improve one of the mountains and get the shield count up. Furthermore we may want to irrigate one of the grassland tiles to get the population growing up to size 12.



Bucephalus, see if you can acquire three techs this turnset – I prefer mandatory techs but optionals with trading value or strategic value would be OK. Each time you acquire a tech, watch closely for a disparity in techs between the AIs. If you find one try to acquire one of the techs in dipsairy, since as you know it is way easier to trade tech for tech than pay gold for all of them. Also, if you want help mid-turn just post a save and I will look at it.

Edit: our do not give in to demands list:
Hittites, Byzantines, America.
Now if they are demanding world map and 20 gold I would probably give it anyway, but I would not give up substantial sums of money.

If there are any concerns with this strategy please speak up.

Good luck.

OK, I'll try and play tonight, if I can.

In the meantime, I'm fairly sure that I will have questions. One that immediately springs to mind is: What do you want to change our research to? And is it the 'lone scientist' approach?

Edit: Scratch that; I've re-read your post, and it's clearer now.

When we get our Iron back, would it be appropriate to upgrade a few vet swords before I trade it away again?

Great analysis Zerksees.

Buce we could probably afford to maintain the iron for some upgrades. Having the extra HP will come in handy versus cavs you may encounter.

I'm having trouble uploading the save, so I'll post it with a turnlog in the morning.

Summary:

I managed to pick-up just the two techs, Chemistry and Metallurgy; the net 57 gpt we are currently generating is not enough to buy anything else, even with throwing in a Peace treaty to Byzantine, so I've been putting beakers in to MT. We should be able to buy it in 5 turns, when we get back 59gpt & Gems from Germany; a few civs still don't have it, so it could present a trading opportunity.

We've got a big-ish stack of Russians uncomfortably close to Bouncing Bucket; it looks like they are heading for England, but I'm paranoid about the Gems, so I've given them a ROP to speed them through. I hope that wasn't a bad decision.

Well I can't see how giving Russia ROP will hurt us, and helping the AI kill each other is a good thing - so no problem there. Welcome to deity 5CC. Russian stacks would not scare me too much - Iroquois stacks on the other hand...

Here is my 2 cents on iron: techs are way too valuable, and it won't be long before the AI won't even want iron anymore, so we should not spend much time holding it. A couple turns probably would be OK.
On upgrading units: I would hate to spend the gold but instead maybe start a few iron using units then trade it off again.

Looks like a good turnset.

Nice set Buce! We're at the point where we can start looking at our GA too.

Pre-turn:

Monty will renegotiate for Wines, and the Iron is off the table, so our deals must be over; it seems he now has his own supply of Iron, so I buy Wines for 11 gpt.
Upgrade three Swords.
Brennus gives Chemistry for Iron + 43gpt.
Lone Scientist to Metallurgy.

Enter:

IBT:

Russia wishes to extend peace, I accept.

660 AD:

Pyong completes University; begins Collosseum.

IBT:

Byz DOW Celts.

670 AD:

Gems to Monty for 19 gpt.

IBT:

Hittites/ Russia make Peace; Hittites/ Celts MA America.

680 AD:

Nada.

IBT:

America DOW Babylon; England DOW Hittites; Aztecs/ Hittites peace; Aztecs/ Byz peace; France/Byz peace, ending our deal early.

690 AD:

Bouncing Bucket completes Bank, begins Collosseum.
France gives Metallurgy for Iron, 110g, & 70gpt; Research to MT, since some civs do not have it, we may get to trade.

IBT:

Iroquois DOW England; Germany/Byz make peace; France/Russia make peace.

700 AD:

Nampo completes Bank, begins Collosseum.

IBT:

Nada.

710 AD:

Nada.

IBT:

Celts/ Germany make peace; Iroquois/Byz make peace.

720 AD:

Nada.

730 AD:

Stack of Russian Rifles and LB's trespass near BB; I hope that they are heading to England, but I've sent the Sword Army to BB in case.

IBT:

France DOW England; Russians move adjacent to BB.

740 AD:

Pay Russia 75g for ROP; I want to lower the risk of an attack, and the sooner they go through our territory, the happier I'll be. Cathy now 'Polite'.

IBT:

Russia DOW Iroquois; Hittites/France make peace.

750 AD: Nada.

End turn notes:

I chose to research MT for 3 reasons;
1) We need cavalry.
2) The only other non-optional tech is Astronomy which is known by all, and has no trade value.
3) MT is still unknown by a few civs, so should give us a trade option.

I resisted the temptation to cream off any workers; all tiles currently being worked have been improved, so I figured to save the unit support for now.

I have built 4 or 5 Trebs.

@ Zerksees: It's true that Iron has lost some of it's value, compounded by the fact that only Celts and France lack it; however, once Steam is known, it will have value again, since it's required for rails and then factories.

@ Whomp: Thanks, mate; it only seems like 5 minutes that you were trying to coax me past 'Monarch' level. It's largely thanks to your patient tutelage that I feel able to compete at this level. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Goz12_750_AD.SAV

Great analysis Zerksees.
Thanks

Bucephalus. Looks good - going for military tradition is a good optional tech. I'll watch each turn and see if we still have trading opportunities with them. I do have one minor point - I would probably have left the scientist on astronomy since we were already several turns into it and it was a required tech.

I am up next unless someone else is strongly compelled to join us - and speaks up before I start. I'll have more analysis after I look at the save.

I do have one minor point - I would probably have left the scientist on astronomy since we were already several turns into it and it was a required tech.

I think I messed up on research. I just realized I didn't set research after we learned gunpowder and it defaulted to Astro. We only had a few turns in so anyone who'd like to change it please do.

Mr Whomp,
Minor point there on research - good to get a "heads up" on it. We may change it on the next turnset.

Sorry, I thought this indicated differently. :confused:

question for you guys. In 810 AD I noticed France is down to one city. We have iron and 70 gpt going to them for 8 more turns. I know they are sinking so I buy 258 gold, 4 workers and printing press for 79 gpt (hoping someone does not have democracy). The rampaging English whack the French on the IBT.

Now the AI is hesitant to trade. Apparently our credit rating has dropped, and I can only get 3 gold from an AI for a 1 gpt payment. Will the AI get over this or are we doomed to paying gold the rest of the game?

Sorry, I thought this indicated differently. :confused:
No apology is needed here. I should have been more specific about this. At the time I read Whomp's post I thought we would want to switch, but later decided it would be OK to keep going on astronomy, since it was required (hence the word may in my post). Really though the lone scientist strategy has mixed results because you often buy the tech before substantial research has been done. I often wonder if it is worth it at all.

I'm afraid our rep was trashed once France was eliminated.

My recollection is when you export resources to the AI regardless of whether it's gpt or goods the rep is trashed if the AI is eliminated. Generally, once you break a gpt deal you'll never be able to make gpt deals again.

The only alternatives I know is renegotiate peace treaties (at a big premium for deity) or sign MA's with gpt as part of the deal.

My recollection is when you export resources to the AI regardless of whether it's gpt or goods the rep is trashed if the AI is eliminated. Generally, once you break a gpt deal you'll never be able to make gpt deals again.
The reason I brought it up is a strategy Moonsinger often used. Read this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1880136#post1880136
You have to read a couple posts forward but it seems to me she is not concerned if an AI goes belly up while she is paying gpt. The only difference I can see is that we were trading iron per turn and not just gpt.

If my suspicions are correct, the AI will forgive us after a while, and our credit rating will improve. There are some kinds of gpt treachery that won't be forgiven, but this one might be forgivable after 20 turns or something. Maybe I am full of wishful thinking here?

I have played 8 turns so far trying to find a way to catch up in tech by trade, and I also have been building and disbanding trebs to rush improvements in Bouncing Bucket and Nampo, but I think pointy stick research might be also in order here. If we can whack one Russian and one English city, we can gain saltpeter and horses, and maybe a tech or two. Both of them have lots of enemies, so they should not have too many units. Maybe its suicide, but we could use 15-20 turns to prepare, and go after them one at a time.

I agree that it wouldn't have been an issue to trade gpt for techs however my understanding is your rep is toast when a resource trade (iron in this case) is lost. The only way to do gpt is MA's and peace treaty renegotiation.

On the warfront don't forget our UU is very powerful and will help us acquire the salt and horses.

Thanks Whomp. So the resource trade cutoff also ruins the trade rep if the civ goes extinct (I knew cutting off was bad - but the permanent cutoff I was not sure about). Well whats one more challenge on top of the steep hill ahead?

Your assessment on the Hwacha is excellent - we should beeline for it. I can't recall what we need to build that Hwacha. It has lethal bombard so lets build a whole huge stack, get our golden age and do some damage.

If you are building Hwacha, it should be the same as a canon (therefore Metalurgy). The atribute always seemed powerful. I have a penchant for Korea so I would love to see it in action. Does anyone happen to know the chance of success for the lethal kill attribute?

I can't recall what we need to build that Hwacha. It has lethal bombard so lets build a whole huge stack, get our golden age and do some damage.

Salt, I believe.

Buce is correct we need salt and bad.

From my recollection the English have a source close by. We need to grab it and colonize it. Setting up a MA with one of the "also rans" who are fighting against them may allow us to trade gpt for a tech as well.

So our army and upgrading units seems to be in order.

Buce is correct we need salt and bad.

From my recollection the English have a source close by. We need to grab it and colonize it. Setting up a MA with one of the "also rans" who are fighting against them may allow us to trade gpt for a tech as well.

So our army and upgrading units seems to be in order.

There were a couple of sources available for trade during my turnset; if we can get MT, might it not be an idea to trade for 20 turns, and get some Cavs?

Trading for it might be hard since our rep is damaged. I'll fish around to see what it will cost to trade for it. If we could trade for it I would like to go for Russia first to get horses but I think we have a trade or ROP or something with them - we should wait until it is over. Also we need mil trad for cavs and we do not have it yet.

The saltpeter is 1N of Liverpool, which is basically south of Nampo. If we raze Liverpool our border expansion might grab the saltpeter - no colony needed.

Will a cavalry attack a sword army?

Trading for it might be hard since our rep is damaged

I think it might be OK. We damaged our rep by failing to keep up a twenty turn deal for 'hard' goods; trading per-turn goods for per-turn goods could be different.


Will a cavalry attack a sword army?

They attacked Tank Armies with Cavalry in 'Madagascar', so who knows?

They attacked Tank Armies with Cavalry in 'Madagascar', so who knows? I must clarify. I wonder if cavs will attack a healthy sword army in the open? In Madagascar, they were probably attacking units defending a city. In the open, the AI will not attack a unit if it has less than 10% chance of winning with any one unit. (If the units are in a city, then the AI will attack at odds lower than 10%.) This is a huge flaw as a cav army can galavant past a stack of 100 AI cavalry without incident, and it allows me to go after the cities and ignore the scores of units wandering around looking for something to attack. I used it a little in the Madagascar game on the final conquests, leaving one healthy army at the top of any stack to ensure its safety. The reason I ask in the first place is I don't have as much experience with armies of units that defend at 2.

If it works we build a big stack of Hwachas (30+?), a few med inf and put them under a sword army and go raze cities. It will be important to keep the army healthy so the odds don't go above 10%.

I must clarify. I wonder if cavs will attack a healthy sword army in the open? In Madagascar, they were probably attacking units defending a city.

No, if you look back over my turnlog, you'll see that they attacked our pillaging Armies; one was even destroyed.

Edit: Though, I have to say that it was unique in my experience for that to happen.

Edit again: England and Russia have both been at war for a long time, with multiple foes; if they had any Cavalry (or Cossacks) left, they wouldn't be sending LB's at each other.

AI attacking armies: If the AI has no "valid" target and you have AIPatrol on, they can accidentally bump into armies until they become "valid" targets.

Hey guys, long time no see :) and welcome to you, Bucephalus

I've recently formatted my disk, but then I realized I can't find my Civ3 CD (along with GalCiv2, they must both be in a secret place), so I've been out of Civ for a while. I've also lost interest in it after winning on Sid (just once, it was a pretty lucky game, one out of many I've tried), and as you may have seen I was very inactive on the forums (now I keep getting that message to post again:blush: ). I also switched to linux in the meantime, and I'm considering downloading it and seeing how well does it run under emulation.

I'm glad this game moved on, although I most likely won't be able to participate in it anymore. I wish the best of luck to you guys, hoping you'll pull this out.

Just one more thing:Now the AI is hesitant to trade. Apparently our credit rating has dropped, and I can only get 3 gold from an AI for a 1 gpt payment. Will the AI get over this or are we doomed to paying gold the rest of the game? If you can still get 3gold for 1gpt, do it with at least one AI. It will improve your relations, but more important it will improve your credit rating once 20 turns pass. As long as you can make gpt deals, you're fine.

Keep up the good work, guys!

Edit: looking at my avatar again made me laugh :D

Started gpt with a couple AI, write-up later. Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/Goz12_850AD.SAV

@ Zerksees:

This clarifies the Army debate for us:

Lurker:

The AI will not attack armies in the fieled as long as they not redlined or like a loser. That is an archer army will be attacked by cavs or rifles, even at full health, but a knight army will not. If they are parked next to a town, they could get bombarded.

The thing you can see is a patrol unit bump into an army that it would not otherwise attack. IOW if you have the NoAiPatrol flag on there is a chance a stray unit will bump into the army and then attack. With the flag off, that does not happen either.

Once you move any army into a town, it could be attacked by any type of unit.

Note once bombers come into play, all bets are off as they will bombard the army and then attack it.

Hey Pentium – glad to see you checking in. Sorry you won’t be active on the rest of this game, but no problem. I was thinking the exact same thing about the gpt for 3 gold. Please check in from time to time, and don’t be afraid to give us your perspective/advice/observations. If you ever do want to get back in you are always welcome.

Bucephalus - thanks I keep forgetting about that "feature"

Pre-flight
All but Byzantine have mil trad
Made peace with them paying 20 gold
MM looks good. Did cahnge Rojo to build longbow

IBT
Byz and Celts make peace, France and Iro make peace
Russian units heading east
Notice there is some type of fighting in our view – just about every turn

760 AD
Scouring the corners of the trade screen for some trades to no avail. No other action.

IBT
Pyong: colosseum -> treb
Rojo: longbow -> treb

770 AD
Bad news: Byz now have military tradition. We still need it so let lone scientist keep at it.

IBT
England and Byz make peace
Germany and Iro MA vs Aztecs
Renew dyes trade with Iro giving 6 gpt and 57 gold
I may have missed our builds here

780 AD
Our gpt payments to Germany are ending in 2 turns. It’s all I have

IBT
France and Aztecs MA vs America
France and Iro sign MA vs Aztecs. (This should have been a clue that France was in trouble)
Seoul: longbow -> treb
Bouncing Bucket: colosseum -> university

790 AD
Disband some trebs to rush colosseum in Nampo (may not have been a good idea based on our later discussions)

IBT
England and Celts make peace
Nampo: colosseum -> university
Seoul: treb -> treb
Rojo: treb -> treb

800 AD
Buy Astronomy from Germany, give alliance vs Hittites, gems, 45 gpt and 336 gold
No deals on physics, and they all have it exc. Hittites.
America has 6 cities left. France has 3 cities left
I have been working on improving city sizes and therefore gpt. Irrigating a couple tiles near BB and Nampo so they can get to size 12.

IBT
France and Iro MA vs Russia
Seoul: treb -> treb

810 AD
France has 1 city left. I can’t get them to sell me any techs for gpt. MM stuff around so we can get 79 gpt to buy 4 workers, 258 gold and printing press. I know they are dead as they have lots of enemies and nowhere to hide. This was the best deal I could get. If I had only figured it out one turn earlier before I had made that deal with the Germans…

IBT
Russia and Hittites sign trade embargo against us!
Lizzies’ rampaging forces destroy the French – and our trading rep.
Iro and Aztecs make peace
Germans extort 35 gold and territory map
Germany and Iro MA vs Celts and MA vs England
Pyong and Rojo each make a treb and start another

820 AD
It is confirmed. Our gpt is near worthless. We still had 8 turns left on our iron trade with France. Oh well.

IBT
Babylon and Hittites embargo against us – where are they getting gold to sign these embargos?
Seoul must have finished something and started a pike

830 AD
Damage control:
Start a couple gpt trades. Buy 3 gold from Germany for 1 gpt, and the same with Babylon

IBT
Watch a Man-o-War sink a Russian galleon. If England has not already had their golden age…
Renew buying silks from the Celts paying 11 gpt. I am surprised and glad that worked
Pyong and Rojo each make a treb and start another

840 AD
No improvement on the trading front.

IBT
Aztecs and Russia make peace
Seoul: pike -> pike

850 AD
Nothing much

I notice we can buy saltpeter from the Germans, and they will accept gpt as part of the deal. As soon as I put a tech on the table they won’t think about it.

I also notice that the English have saltpeter at Liverpool and Norwich.

Next turnset:
Bouncing Bucket will have a university in 1 turn. Check the science – it might be worth putting some money to speed up mil trad.
Continue the preparations for England invasion. We need to protect our iron on the border, and prepare to invade. For invasion I would suggest coming in on the mountain that has the saltpeter, and take/raze Liverpool first. Also at some point we need to buy some saltpeter and upgrade our trebs to Hwachas.

Whomp you are next

Thanks for the welcome, Pentium; are you sure you can't manage a turn or two?

If I find my CD I'll be able to play full sets, but as it is now I'm just going to download CA2 and look at your saves.

Finally, I have to fulfill my lurking duty:
Pictures please! :)

Pictures please! :)

Ask and ye shall receive
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/goz12850ad.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/goz12850ad2.jpg
(note to other lurkers - this doesn't usually work with me)

OK I have the save and will play it tomorrow.

Pre turn: See that we can get both horses and salt for a price. Decide to make a deal for horses, MA with Germans against the English. Turn up lux to 10% and science to 60%.

IT Our deal for wines and 11gpt is up. I renew it for 172g (won't do straight gpt).
860 AD Cancel our gems deal with Aztecs so we can turn off lux.

IT Wow. The germans raze the city south of Liverpool.
870 AD Sieze Liverpool with all our buchets. Damage 3 muskets. Lose 2 swords and a MI but razed the city. We get the salt inside our borders and 8 new slaves. Upgrade a buchet to a hwacha and change a couple builds to hwachas and horseman. Horseman to upgrade to cavs.

IT Brighton falls to the Germans. A Man o War pillage our hill road at Bouncing bucket.
880 Move some buchets into Nampo for upgrades. Upgrade a pike to musket for 90g. Move some other units to the saltpeter and fortify. Move a hwacha towards Bouncing Bucket so we can bombard the MoWs. The slaves move to improve some tiles.

IT See a couple German cavs take on a English Cav.
890 Oh my..the Germans are pounding the English. They also have infantry running around.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6136/gozgermansub6.jpg

Cut a deal with the Celt for iron at 40gpt. This will allow us to upgrade all our buchets and get MT in 5.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7605/gozirondeal2lv2.jpg

IT Germans moving all over. They also move a settler to the Salt spot where they razed Liverpool. They also sign a MPP with the Iroquois. Then sign a MA vs. Russia.
900 Move towards the English coastal city north of Nampo.

IT Aztecs and Russians MA vs. America. Hittites and Aztecs MA vs. Babs.
910 Move around. Notice everyone but the Hittites are running either Fascism or monarchy. I notice I can turn down lux for a turn and still finish all five builds all the same. Saves us a few coins.

IT Babs and Americans make peace. Russia and Celts make peace. Watch the Germans roll the Brits. Hopefully this will leave an opening to get a furs colony.
920 Move towards our target.

IT The Brits are dropping like a house of cards to the germans as York falls. We get our opening for the Furs. :D Byz ask for TM and 25g. Okee dokee.
930 hurry a horse for 68g since we can get MT next turn.

IT Russians and Babs make peace. Warwick falls to the Germans. Byz and Iroquois MA vs. Russians. Byz and Iroquois MA vs England. Get the military academy request.
940 Set up a fur colony where the Germans borders aren't covering. Rojo starts the academy due in 18. Try bombarding Magadan and miss on all 5 hwachas. Fire the spotter. Start the Mil Acad. in Rojo. Turn off research so we can upgrade our horses to cavs. We have 82g in the bank and 217gpt. Run 1 scientist on physics. Cripes...the Iroquois have 50k gold in the bank. 6 more turns on the MA with the Germans against the Hittites and 11 (with horses) versus the English.

IT Holy Cow...the Brits send a cav out of the darkness north of Magadan and kill a MI. A LB pops out of Magadan but loses to another MI. Russians cancel our ROP but send units through our territory anyhow.
950 Bombard Magadan and hit on 3 of 5. Still no GA....:confused: Knock one musket to redline and the other is 2/3. Attack with a MI no dent. A 2nd takes the musket and finish with elite win. The city is razed. Upgrade two horses (150 a pop) to cavs. Oops I should've short rushed a LB in the capital since we're at a odd number for the cav. Whomoever plays the next save should rush a musket so there's no waste.

Summary
I've never played the Koreans. Does anyone know how to kick off their GA? We're going to need lots of arty and cav armies to start picking off some of the big guys. The Iroquois, Aztecs and Germans are huge.

I've never played the Koreans. Does anyone know how to kick off their GA?

Well, I've never played them either, but I imagine that you actually have to kill something with lethal bombard.

I agree with Bucephalus on the golden age. Bucephalus you will get to try it since you are next. Let's hope the English last 20 turns so we can get some techs for peace.

Nice work Whomp - glad to see we can get some gpt for our iron.

@ Whomp:

I'm getting a message saying it's an invalid file; could you upload it again please? Thanks.

We're going to need lots of arty and cav armies to start picking off some of the big guys. The Iroquois, Aztecs and Germans are huge.
Actually cav army since we can only have one. And if we play our cards right, we'll only have to fight one of the huge AI;)

Sorry Buce. I'll load another save but we'll have to wait till I get home. :(

Sorry Buce. I'll load another save but we'll have to wait till I get home. :(

No hurry, mate.

Edit: No need, Whomp; I've downloaded it again and it's fine.

I agree with Bucephalus on the golden age. Bucephalus you will get to try it since you are next. Let's hope the English last 20 turns so we can get some techs for peace.

I've formulated a plan which should achieve both of these objectives, but I want to run it past you both first in case I'm missing something.

England is down to it's last three cities, but fortunately for us, Reading is isolated in the NE corner of our territory. My plan is to blockade Reading - which I can do by occupying just three tiles - for the 10 turns required to honour our alliance with Germany, at which time we can either get a tech from Germany for an extension to the alliance + gpt., or tech for peace from England. In the meantime, if I reduce Reading to it's last defender, there is every chance that the H'wacha's can destroy that defender, triggering our GA. We can maintain this position indefinitely until our objectives are achieved.

Also, our alliance with Germany against the Hittites expires in 5 turns; should I renew it for a tech, if possible?

Finally, is there anyone to whom I should not cave?

Your plan on England and our golden age is excellent. Actually it is more than excellent - wicked comes to mind.

If there are war weariness issues I suppose we could just finish England right after renewing with Germany and getting the tech. If we choose peace for techs from England we just step out of the way and let the Germans wreck them. I would prefer getting the tech from Germany, but am guessing we might get more than one tech from England. If we do not start the GA now, we might be able to use the AI railroads and ROP to wage war on America or Byzantine to start the GA.

Regarding Hittites, renewal is OK with me as long as it is paying enough to offset any war weariness we might get (would value of 20 gpt be enough?)

I would think we could ignore big threats from the Americans, Byzantines, and of course Hittites and England. A demand of 30 gold and territory map is not worth going to war over. Big demands are the ones to stand up to.

Also, if we get a great leader I think we should suicide the army and build a cav army

Whomp - your thoughts?

If there are war weariness issues I suppose we could just finish England right after renewing with Germany and getting the tech.

Hmm, wouldn't that further devalue our Rep?

Regarding Hittites, renewal is OK with me as long as it is paying enough to offset any war weariness we might get (would value of 20 gpt be enough?)

I'm not sure if you understood me correctly; maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I assumed Germany would want us to pay gpt on our side of the alliance if they were to give a tech.

I doubt if WW will be an issue at this stage, since we are not actually doing any fighting with the Hittites, but if it is we are grossing plenty of gpt., enough to spare 10% lux.

Also, if we get a great leader I think we should suicide the army and build a cav army

This brings up a query that I have. We are building the Military Academy; is it a pre-build or are we intending to build an Army?

I think Germany would want us to pay for their fight against the Hittites. I'm not sure the Hittites are long for this world either since they're the only ones we have a tech advantage on.

Buce I'd try to kill one unit by drawing it out, lethal bombard it, get the GA and sue for peace if that's possible. Lethal bombarding behind the city walls may be tough. You may have to sacrifice a MI to do this and follow with lethal bombard from a tile behind.

I think we have to develop the Mil. Acad. because our armies will need to get stronger as we go....from cav to tank I'd think. We can't count on getting a MGL imo...too random.

Buce I'd try to kill one unit by drawing it out, lethal bombard it, get the GA and sue for peace if that's possible.

It's not an option while we have 10 turns left of our alliance with Germany, so that decision will pass to Zerksees.

But what I'm thinking - and this may be a bit ambitious - is that if England are willing to give more than one tech for peace, all they have that is of any use, is Physics; however, if we can get Physics from Germany to continue the war, then we can continue the blockade (keeping England alive) for a further 20 turns maximum (after all Germany may give them peace early), then they (England) may give Theory of Gravity and Magnetism for peace, especially as we will be camped out outside what will by then be their Capital. Ok, I know that's a lot of ifs, but we have nothing to lose by trying, and much to gain.

One further question:

If we get lucky and get our GA quickly, should I crank up Science spending, and research Physics for ourselves?

OK cut off the sue for peace part but I'd still try to draw out one of their units. It will be the easiest ways to send rockets at them.
btw the h'wacha rates up there with dromons for coolness when used in battle. The rockets are like shooting off bottle rockets. :D

Ratcheting up research would be a good idea since we will still have excess to upgrade the horses to cavs.

Hmm, wouldn't that further devalue our Rep?The problem with the gpt deal was the iron that we were not able to deliver – not the fact that our gpt recipient ceased to exist, so a gpt for tech deal with England shortly before their demise will not affect us. That was the point of my prior discussion.

I'm not sure if you understood me correctly; maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I assumed Germany would want us to pay gpt on our side of the alliance if they were to give a tech.Let me explain. Typically I will raise and lower the gpt to see how much value the alliance is worth. First you set the gpt at just enough to buy the tech with the alliance. Then take the alliance off the table and add 20 gpt to our offer. If he would accept then you know the alliance is worth less than 20 gpt to him. I want to know the value of the alliance to Germany and this one way to do it. Does this make sense?

We are building the Military Academy; is it a pre-build or are we intending to build an Army? In addition to Whomp’s reason, I might add that it gives us something to do with our extra shield making capacity, and adds a tiny bit more culture.

Regarding Hittites – my guess is they are on an island or they would already be dead.

On the techs – can we get physics on our own research before the time comes to deal with Elizabeth – or can we buy it outright from someone? Furthermore I should hope it would be less than 20 turns before we get theory of gravity and magnetism (though she will have next age techs for us too no doubt). Keeping here around might create some opportunity later though, because here research has to be basically stopped right now and she will have techs we don’t – creating some trade opportunities in the future.

If we get a GA, you can use your judgement on researching physics. As you know I lean towards buying but here I have a hard time deciding the risk of a small civs (ours) holding so much gold that the AI could just take. 4-5 turns of high research would be OK with me.

I still think you could draw a unit out by leaving a weak unit on a pillaged tile next to their capital, and surrounding it with other units to block the Germans. Obviously you will need to cover more than 3 tiles for a short time

This game is getting fun now.

Let me explain. Typically I will raise and lower the gpt to see how much value the alliance is worth. First you set the gpt at just enough to buy the tech with the alliance. Then take the alliance off the table and add 20 gpt to our offer. If he would accept then you know the alliance is worth less than 20 gpt to him. I want to know the value of the alliance to Germany and this one way to do it. Does this make sense?.

Ah, yes - the penny drops! However, I thought we were unable to buy techs now for gpt unless it was tied to an alliance or peace treaty, in which case they would "never accept this deal"? Or have I got it wrong? :confused:

I thought we were unable to buy techs now for gpt unless it was tied to an alliance or peace treaty, in which case they would "never accept this deal"? Or have I got it wrong? :confused:
How quickly I forget! Since we were able to sell our iron for 40 gpt, I must have assumed our rep had been repaired. If it automatically switches to "they would never accept such a deal" obviously it is too early to try it, and you will just have to use the military alliance to "open the door" to the trade. (Or you could see if they will give us gold for the military alliance - that would be another way to determine the net value)

So to answer the original question (I think?), assuming there is no way to put a value on the miliatry alliance, renewing a military alliance to get a tech is OK. I don't think it will hurt us.

Buying physics from Germany (or someone beside England) and getting the other two from England in peace is what I would like to see, but whatever works.

I am thinking our trade rep can't possibly be repaired yet but maybe it is better. You can test this if you like - try to trade 1 gpt for some amount of gold (maybe 10?) from an AI. Last time I tried all I could get was 3 gold. Maybe we can do better than that now.

Okay, I'm pretty much clear on my options now. I expect to be able to play it in the next couple of days.

Interestingly enough, the Celts would offer their gpt but would not give any gold lump sum in the deal for iron. The Germans would not accept gpt from us but would take lump sum gold for the furs (before I planted the colony). I'm not sure our rep is clean yet. MA's and peace treaty negotiations will be the best way to help repair this.

Somehow we need some of the titans (Germany, Aztecs and Iroquois) to get into a tussle. Iroquois have 50k+ gold. :eek:

Speaking of options, there is a third possibility that fits my plan.

If I can trigger our GA, we can self research Physics without renewing our alliance with Germany. There is no reason why we cannot stay at war with England still, only giving peace once we have Physics; this would have the advantage of not being committed to twenty more turns of war.

Interestingly enough, the Celts would offer their gpt but would not give any gold lump sum in the deal for iron. The Germans would not accept gpt from us but would take lump sum gold for the furs (before I planted the colony). I'm not sure our rep is clean yet. MA's and peace treaty negotiations will be the best way to help repair this.

Yeah, it's a question of credit-worthiness; they will not give 'hard' goods for credit, only for 'hard' cash.

Somehow we need some of the titans (Germany, Aztecs and Iroquois) to get into a tussle. Iroquois have 50k+ gold. :eek:

The way that alliances keep chopping and changing it may happen soon enough; if we have to engineer it, we must be very careful to pick the right side, ie someone who is physically between us and our enemy.

Pre-turn:

Cannot short-rush in the Capital as we only have three gold;
mm Nampo for growth. With an extra citizen we can make 10 shields, giving us a H'watcha every three turns;
Wake two H'watcha's near the coast, and send them towards Reading;
Current state of affairs is that England would give Physics for Peace only if we gave 20gpt.

Enter:

Hittites request an audience. I agree, just to see how many cities they have (5);
Xmas comes early! A yellow-lined English Cavalry attacks our MI, and retreats red-lined - crucially, it is next to out stack of H'watcha's;
Aztecs would like an alliance against Babylon, but they only offer peanuts per turn; I politely decline;
Germany and America MA Celts;
German Cavalry enters territory on the way to Reading - too late to thwart my plans.

960 AD:

First H'wacha bombards English Cavalry and........We have our GA! :woohoo:
Raise Science slider to 70%, and we will have Physics in 6 with +25gpt;
Workers at Nampo finish roading, begin roading to Reading to facilitate movement of units back to Korea, should we need to do so in a hurry.
Move H'wacha stack on to hill in Reading territory; move Cav to begin blockade.
Our Rep is still rubbish, Germany (who are gracious) would only sell 100g for 65gpt!
Upgrade 1 Cav.

IBT:

Russia wants us to pay for a MPP; politely refuse;


970 AD:

Nampo builds H'wacha > H'wacha;
Seoul builds Cav > Cav:
Pyong builda Cav > Cav;
BB builds Cav > Cav;
Move blockade in to position around Reading; pound with Arty, and see it has just 2 defenders (muskets)
Move more Cavalry to put the squeeze on Reading.
England would now give Physics for Peace.

IBT:

We lose our Iroquois dyes; I renegotiate for 12gpt.
Germans turn-back;

980 AD:

Arty pounds 3 MoW's and a Galleon outside Reading.

IBT:

3 more MoW and a Galleon show up outside Reading; damaged shipping enters Reading for repairs;

990 AD:

Move more Arty in to place outside Reading; do not bombard this turn as the ships will take all the hits.
Workers finish road to Reading; another stack to mine mountain at Pyong, as we are wasting food there.

IBT:

Ships leave Reading;
Germany seems to have run out of steam, as England take back Warwick;

1000 AD:

Seoul builds Cav > Cav;
Pyong builds Cav > Cav;
Nampo builds H'wacha > Hwacha;
Pound Reading; there are now 2 Cav within; since the Muskets are damaged, the Cav are the' best' defenders. Decide to attack, successfully killing both Cavs; for good measure I also kill 1 Musket, leaving them just 1 defender. I'm trying to turn the screw.
England would now give Physics and Chivalry.

IBT:

Our alliance with Germany against the Hittites expires; worryingly, despite us being just one turn from Physics they will not renew the
deal with Physics on their side, for gpt and Gems. They will "never accept this deal";
Iroquois offer 100 gpt :eek: for MPP & ROP: I so reluctantly refuse.

1010 AD:

Bombard Reading, kill Musket; now defended only by a Spear;

IBT:

Celts/ Babylon sign Peace;
Trade Embargo between Russia/ Hittites ends;

1020 AD:

We learn Physics;
England would give ToG and Magnetism for 120gpt + Peace; still allied with Germany so switch research to Magnetism (6);
We cannot get a gpt with an Alliance, for any amount of money;
Bombard last defender out of Reading;

IBT:

Germany/ Hittites sign Peace;London & Warwick fall to the Germans;
New Spear in Reading;

1030 AD:

Seoul builds Cav > Cav;
Pyong builds Cav > Cav;
Nampo builds H'wacha;
Bombard Reading, killing new Spear - it is again defenceless; with luck it will soon be the Capital.

IBT:

Our Silks deal runs out with Celts; they will not renew it, even for 200gpt; :confused:
But they will accept Gems and 6gpt, so I make the deal.


1040 AD:

Upgrade Horse to Cav;

IBT:

Babylon builds Larsa uncomfortably close to our Salt;
Germany/ Babylon MA England;
We lose our supply of Wines; renegotiate for 15gpt;

1050 AD:

Our Alliance with Germany against England is over, and we lose our Horses; I renegotiate for 15gpt;
Give Peace + 8 gpt to England for ToG;

End turn notes:

We are three turns away from Magnetism and our free Ind Age tech;
England will soon lose their only remaining city (besides Reading) so I have continued our blockade; there is every opportunity to
continue to bully them for techs every 20 turns, although they are now vulnerable to seaborne landings. I tried to get a ROP with them to guard against this, but no dice.
We have 11 turns of our GA left;
We are still at War with Hittites, but there is no good reason not to make Peace - they have nothing to give, but no-one will pay us for an Alliance;
Iroquois are attacking Orenburg (Russia); if it falls we will capture Russian Horses when BB has a cultural expansion in 12 turns;

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Korean_blockade..JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Goz12_1050_AD_Buce.SAV

Great set Buce. Things are sounding a lot more interesting. It sounds like we kept that tenous furs colony.

Great set Buce. Things are sounding a lot more interesting. It sounds like we kept that tenous furs colony.

Thanks, Whomp.

Yeah, we'll keep them until the nearby city has a cultural expansion.

Looks great. We can kill anything with Hwachas right? Makes me want to make more war. Any thoughts about wrecking that Babylonian city - It will be fine until the first culture expansion. Then it has to go.

Looks great. We can kill anything with Hwachas right? Makes me want to make more war.

Well, they certainly killed everything that got in my way :D

I think they would miss more often against units with a higher defence value, if I understand correctly how Arty works, so we'd need a lot more than Industrial Age Arty to ensure their effectiveness. Actually, a combination of the two would work best; red-line them with the modern stuff, then kill them with H'wacha's.

Any thoughts about wrecking that Babylonian city - It will be fine until the first culture expansion. Then it has to go.

It's a long way from home, so unless it rushes some culture we're OK for a while; Also, Babs are in bed with the Germans currently, but you know how quickly these things change; I've lost track of who is fighting who but it would be vulnerable to Germany, Iroquois - and to a lesser extent - Russia.

Russia though could be the next lame duck as they are at war with Iroquois; as I said in my turnlog, there is every likelihood that we will have their Horses in 12 turns when BB exands it's borders.

There are a couple of things I'd like clarification on.

Firstly, Nampo has 700+ culture, has expanded it's borders twice, yet it has no cultural buildings. How come? (incidently, it really could do with some 'happiness' buildings once we can spare the shields; WW was becoming a problem there).

Secondly, when one of you has the time, could you give me a masterclass on 'short-rushing'? I understand the basic principle but I have an uneasy feeling that my understanding is incomplete.

Looked at the save last night. I was curious how long it would take for Nampo to expand again to ensure we keep the salt, and I noticed all our culture buildings in Nampo are gone!:eek: :eek: No temple, library, catehdral, university or colosseum. (I just noticed Bucephalus had the same observation)

If we did not lose it to the English for a turn then I wonder if there is some kind of bug? Can you check the intermediate saves?

I reread the turn logs but did not see anything.

It is not the end of the world but I will be changing the builds to put that infrastructure back.

I am now leaning toward war with Russia as they have only 11 cities, no saltpeter, and whacking one will net us another resource to sell (and we have no deals with them at the moment).

Looked at the save last night. I was curious how long it would take for Nampo to expand again to ensure we keep the salt, and I noticed all our culture buildings in Nampo are gone!:eek: :eek: No temple, library, catehdral, university or colosseum. (I just noticed Bucephalus had the same observation)

If we did not lose it to the English for a turn then I wonder if there is some kind of bug? Can you check the intermediate saves?

Whatever happened, it happened between the end of my first turnset and the beginning of the one just played. I'll d/load your's and Whomp's last saves when I get a moment, to narrow it down further.

I've narrowed it down to Whomp's last turnset. At the end of your last turnset, we had everything except a University, which was due in two turns.
At the end of Whomp's turns, all culture buildings had gone.

That's the nearest we can get unless Whomp has any mid-turn saves.

:blush: It's my fault. I had a cav walk into Nampo and it sounds like it destroyed all the buildings. I thought I posted that but I didn't. Sorry for not being clear on that loss.

:blush: It's my fault. I had a cav walk into Nampo and it sounds like it destroyed all the buildings. I thought I posted that but I didn't. Sorry for not being clear on that loss.

No worries; we can get them all back soon enough. :)

:blush: It's my fault. I had a cav walk into Nampo and it sounds like it destroyed all the buildings.Just the culture buildings. Yes that is the bad effect of losing a city for a turn. We can rebuild it. I'll start with the library, then temple.

It is better that we did it than a game malfunction. I have built brand new cities where the citizens "could not stand the cruel oppression borne upon them". I sometimes think there are some bugs in the way the game handles the table that stores all the city info.

Just the culture buildings. Yes that is the bad effect of losing a city for a turn. We can rebuild it. I'll start with the library, then temple.

Since we have the shield/ commerce boost of our GA, wouldn't it make more sense to build a University after the Library, especially as WW is no longer an immediate problem?

Here's my thoughts:
Get the library asap to help multiply science in the golden age.
Get the temple to get rid of the entertainer (I hate to raise the lux for just one city).
The review and decide if uni or cathedral is next. If the people are unhappy the cathedral would be next, else uni.

Here's my thoughts:
Get the library asap to help multiply science in the golden age.
Get the temple to get rid of the entertainer (I hate to raise the lux for just one city).
The review and decide if uni or cathedral is next. If the people are unhappy the cathedral would be next, else uni.

I was under the impression that the entertainer was no longer needed since the war ended; however, even if it is, surely that wouldn't cause us to raise the lux slider? And since we are self researching, wouldn't a Uni make more of a difference than working one extra tile? Also, the extra shields produced during a GA would build the Uni much faster than it would once it is over.
That said, a temple will only take a couple of turns. But you're in the driving seat, so it's your call.

Edit: I've just looked at the save, and my suspicions were correct. I made Peace with England at the end of my turns, and didn't mm Nampo; the clown is no longer needed, we can have a Library in 1 turn, and if the clown works the Iron we can generate 18 shields per turn towards a Uni, which would be almost finished by the end of our GA.

OK. Did not try to MM Nampo last night - just assumed it was set up (mostly freaked about missing culture buildings). Will do lib -> uni -> temple then the next guy can decide about cath -> colosseum.

OK. Did not try to MM Nampo last night - just assumed it was set up

Sorry, my mistake, not yours.

Turnlog:

Pre-flight:

* Notice that we lost all our culture buildings in Nampo. Switch to library which is due in 1 turn. Change Pyong to musket
* We are still stuck at 3 gold for 1 gpt.
* America has 3 cities, England has 2 cities. Byz have 9 and Hittites 5. Somehow these meek 2nd tier civs are going to help us catch up in tech
* Upgrade 1 treb to Hwacha for 30 gold
* I think I’ll will wait a while to go after Babylon. Russia also looks like a good target.
* MM Nampo for more food to get it to size 12
* Love that golden age thank you very much

IBT
Notice Iroquois and Russia have ROP
Seoul: cav -> musket
Pyong: cav -> Hwacha
Nampo: library -> university. With some MM it will be done in 5 turn
Iro building Hoover Dam

Turn 1: 1060 AD
England still has 2 cities
Notice Germany and Iro are aligned vs. Russia. Russia is our next victim
Magnetism in 2
Notice Hittites have chivalry. Trade theology for chivalry (cheap backup if we lose salt) Hittites are just annoyed with us. Maybe we can get something for a DOW on them later down the road
Moving war units southeast, working to bring in pikeman from fur colony for upgrade, moving army east and put cav on the mountain to defend our salt.

IBT
Celts and Germans make peace
Hittites and Iro MA vs Russia
Rojo: military academy -> musket

Turn 2: 1070 AD
No change in city counts of “the meek” AI
Iro are sending a settler up north. Change our 5 unit blockade to block the free space as well as English city.
Probe into Russian territory and see that Orenburg is defended by an unfortified regular rifle. Looks tempting. A lot of Iro units have been heading up that way – the city must be weakly defended. Move cavs to the border, Hwachas not going to make it.

IBT
Turn 3: 1080 AD
Pyong: Hwacha -> cav
Germans DOW Celts
Aztecs building Hoover Dam

Turn 3: 1080 AD
Our free tech is nationalism. The English do not have it. However I am unable to make a trade with them for medicine or steam power as we do not have enough gold. Cut science to 0% to build gold – we are at +332 gpt atm.
Start lone scientist on communism. This tech and ironclads are going to help us catch up.
Germans are almost will to give us 4 gold for 1 gpt. So I make a deal for 3 gold paying 1 gpt.

Russia has a rifle in our territory. I issue remove or declare ultimatum. She declares. Use three cavs to defeat a regular and conscript rifle and Orenburg is razed. One cav is redline and one promoted to elite. Two free workers [2-0]
Use longbow, Hwacha and cav to take out the invading rifelman, costing us the longbow [3-1]
Whoa – Hittites have 246 gold. Sell them theology for 246 gold
Also notice Byzantines lack steam power. Argh we need to buy it so we can get medicine from them.

IBT
Iroquois and Russia make peace (this could be bad)
Byz and Celts make peace
Seoul: rifle -> rifle
Bouncing Bucket: rifle -> hwacha
No Russian units invade or attack us

Turn 4: 1090 AD
We have 703 gold and can’t quite afford medicine from England. Steam Power out of the question. We need more gold to buy steam.
Elizabeth is enjoying her new capital in Reading
Our army is pillaging and exploring in Russia. There is a size 12 city E/SE of Orenburg ruins, and a size 1 N/E-ish of the ruins. Hwachas are getting closer so I have to decide which to go after. I like the size 12 to get us some more slave workers. Also hoping Catherine will talk after 5-6 turns to crank up our pointy stick research.

This is the end of my first session for the turnset.

Iroquois and Russia make peace (this could be bad)

Isn't it always the way. :lol:

I reckon they've been at war for so long that we can handle a defensive war at the very least.

Well the Russians making peace with Iroquois had no effect on the outcome

Turnset continued…

Besides Hittite, Byz, Abe, Liz do not have commie or fascism
Our border expansion at fall of Orenburg does not pick up the extra horses. BB is expanding in 8 so we will have them then.
The size 12 Russian city is Smolensk. It’s a doozy – on a hill surrounded by river on three sides, and a mountain on the other side

IBT
Byz and England make peace
Celt and Aztec MA vs Babylon
Hittite and Germany MA vs Aztec and vs England
Russia lands settler/rifle on ruins near Reading.
Aztecs and Celts MA vs Iroquois - Aztecs DOW Iroquois <- This is big
Brennus wants to renew iron for 40 gpt – we accept
Rojo: rifle -> Hwacha

Turn 5: 1100 AD

Byz now have steam and England has nationalism. Argh – too late. In my clouded state of mind I switch to medicine lone scientist

Defeat the Russian rifle [4-1] and we are up two workers (+2)

IBT
Pyong: cav -> cav
BB: Hwacha -> Hwacha
Nampo: uni -> temple

Turn 6: 1110 AD

Upgrade a musket to rifle for 60 gold.
The clouded state clears a little – decide to go commie again to give us a shot with the meek – done in 14 @ 70% sci and a slight deficit
Mini SOD enters Russian territory: 7 cav, 12 Hwacha, 1 elite med inf, 1 rifle. We are going to wreck Smolensk before the Iro or Germans get it.

IBT
Aztecs and Babylon make peace
Seoul: rifle -> cav
Rojo: Hwacha -> Hwacha

Turn 7: 1120 AD

A gift from Russia -> rifle and settler cross right in path of army stack near Smolensk. We take the rifle with a cav [5-1] and the settler gives two more slaves (+4)

Been pillaging Russian tiles with some cavs and the sword army

IBT
America and Iroquois make peace – this is a good break for us as we need the meek to live a while longer
BB: Hwacha -> Hwacha

Turn 8: 1130 AD
We can collect 185 gold and 20 gpt from Russia for peace. Sadly we do not have enough gold to buy medicine.
Cut science to 0% again
Our units move into position on Smolensk

IBT
Babs and Germans MA vs. Russia
Pyong: cav -> cav
Rojo: Hwacha -> Hwacha
Namp: temple -> catehdral. We have recovered pretty quickly here in the culture department

Turn 9: 1140 AD
Assault on Smolensk: Hwachas go to work, then attack. We lost a cav but defeated 3 rifles and a longbow and Smolensk is razed! [9-2] We net 9 workers (+13) and a Russian treb. I can’t wait to upgrade it to see if we can have a Russian Hwacha

It did not improve our situation with them much as I still can’t buy a useful tech straight up.
Put science back to 70% (IIRC)
IBT
Germany lands an infantry by Reading
Iroquois land an infantry and a cav by Reading. Methinks England’s time is about up.

Turn 10: 1150 AD
Lizzy is on the chopping block. Need to make something happen.
Russia: Make peace and pay 189 gpt for communism and 249 gold
Byzantines: Sell communism, get steam power, world map, 15 gold and 1 gpt
America: Sell communism, get ironclads and world map
England: Sell communism and ironclads, get medicine, economics, world map
Byzantines: Sell 260 gold and ironclads, get sanitation

We are caught up with the meek.
Change production in all but Nampo to hospitals
There is coal in Lasra, and in the open SW of Nottingham. We have none. Dispatch worker and cav to coal in the open. Next player can try to secure so we can put up some rails.

I don’t want AI to come after our new map.
Sell WM to Byz for 85 gold
Trade with Celts, get worker paying WM + 52 gold
Sell WM to Babs for 22 gold
Sell WM to Germany for 20 gold
Sell WM to Aztec for 33 gold
Sell WM to Iro for 5 gold

There are two small stacks of workers near Seoul that have been fortified – have not moved this turn. Also new slave worker in Seoul has not moved.

Summary:
Start war, wreck two Russian cities, make peace
Enter industrial times and gain 9 techs: economics, magnetism, nationalism, communism, medicine, steam power, medicine, sanitation and ironclads
Also have the entire world map
Add 13 slave workers

Rep still damaged
We are still several hundred points behind France in score!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/Goz12_1150_AD.SAV

Whomp you are up

Nine techs! and the WM! :clap: Brilliant, Zerksees, well done. :worship:

A source of coal nearby too - now that's a break we badly needed.

I assume you didn't have time to invade the Germans? :mischief:

Thanks - I wish there were more required techs in that stack, but it is a good start.
I assume you didn't have time to invade the Germans? :mischief: Luckily no. There are actually two coals nearby. One in the borders near the Bab city Lasra and one up for grabs outside Nottingham. No attack needed on the one near Nottingham. We will lose it once there is a border expansion in Nottingham but hopefully we will get a bunch of rails up by then.

I would definitely want the cities connected by rail and hopefully a good bunch of tiles railed before we start in on Germany (who is the tile and population leader atm). BTW we probably should get them off our doorstep before they get bombers. I don't know if it is possible but should be considered.

Other thoughts:
We could go after Babylon soon to secure a permanent source of coal. I might recommend attacking them once Nampo expands again. That would move our border close to the coal in Lasra and maybe keep them from building near there. Also pointy stick could get us a tech from them - or at least enable us to use gpt in the peace treaty.

If Russia enters our territory again, give them the remove or declare ultimatum. It would be nice to get out of those payments.

Hopefully the meek will get another tech soon and Russia will start to fall behind and join the meek. That will give us another opportunity to trade up.

Also we should discuss how many Hwachas we want since I assume we will not be able to build them after replaceable parts. I think we would want 20-30 of them so we (along with any arty we build) so we can take out redline attacking units without losing our units.

Also we should discuss how many Hwachas we want since I assume we will not be able to build them after replaceable parts. I think we would want 20-30 of them so we (along with any arty we build) so we can take out redline attacking units without losing our units.

Just a thought but 40 is a nicely divisible number (ie 2 stacks of 20, or 4 of 10), in case we fight on multiple fronts, or face an invasion threat.

Great trading, zerk, both with the techs and selling our WM :DJust a thought but 40 is a nicely divisible number (ie 2 stacks of 20, or 4 of 10), in case we fight on multiple fronts, or face an invasion threat.Well... the larger the number, the more nicely divisible it is, you know what I mean :D

Just make sure to balance the Cavs, Rifles and Hwachas. I've never seen Hwach'as in combat before, so they might be stronger than I think, but don't overbuild them anyway.

I took a look at the save in CA and Germans look very strong. They'll be deadly with Bombers and Panzers, but I suppose we'd need a MA against them with either Iro's or Bab's, preferably both. I really wouldn't invade them without being sure we'll get some serious help. And first have some better defenses up, our military doesn't look very defensive now. More Riflemen won't hurt.

Great set Zerk. I got it.

thanks guys.

We can always build artillery to augment - it is just a question of how many to keep around for lethal bombard. Since we won't be able to build them after we get replaceable parts we need to know how many to build before then. I agree the balance is important but we can build any or all the other units after replaceable parts.

Working on the save now. Question is if I attempt a steal on Russia would that be considered exploitive if they declare?

Question is if I attempt a steal on Russia would that be considered exploitive if they declare?
Not to me. I think we have handicapped ourselves enough with just 5 cities. Go for it. What are you going to steal?