View Full Version : Godotnut's Guide to Totally Peaceful Deity Cultural Victory


godotnut
May 16, 2006, 01:51 AM
At the request of some of you fine Civfanatics, I've finally gotten off my lazy butt to do a write-up on how I won my six HOF Deity games (three on Beta, three on the new one). Be warned--it's still quite a challenge with this strategy, but it works fairly often for me, proving that contrary to the conventional wisdom, it's quite possible to achieve a totally peaceful builder's win on the highest settings. In fact, it's only really challenging on Deity. So this one goes out to all you builders out there: peace wins ;)

Settings

I'm going to explain how to do this using strategic settings, but it DOES work with organic settings--it's just harder, and it may be impossible with some types of maps and/or sets of opponents. You do need one thing for this to work, especially with chopping having been nerfed: you need stone in your starting city to build the Pyramids, and you must have the Pyramids to win before the AI launches the ship. I have done this without starting stone before the patch, but have found it impossible with 1.61. So if you don't find stone in your starting position, regenerate the map until you do.

Disclaimer: this strategy borrows bit and pieces from many others' strategies and tips. I am especially indebted to the excellent players, who contributed to the conversations in the Beta Gauntlet III (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=153233).

For a peacful win, I'm convinced that Elizabeth is the best cultural victor, hands down. The combination of financial (for cottage spamming) and philosophical (for the great artists) can't be beat. The next best cultural leader is Mansa (half priced temples plus financial). Also, the slower game speed the better for faster wins.

EDIT: Huyana also excels at this strategy, but with some modifications (not all peace). For more, see the conversation in the thread below.

Maps: smaller is easier but larger offers the opportunity for faster wins. Why? Because the more opponents you have, the harder it is to keep the peace and to build the Pyramids on Deity. But more opponents also means more tech trades and so a faster win.

The easiest map allowed by the HOF is Pangea on smaller maps, and Pangea or Continents on Standard and larger. The easiest map, period, is Balanced, because it offers great resources, and it is the largest map, but the new HOF doesn't allow this map type. Water means slower contact with the AI, which means no early tech trades. Yes, it's easier to expand with a continent all to yourself, but it's nearly impossible to tech fast enough to win without trades.

Opponents: You want peace. This is easier with Peacemonger opponents, but it can be done with more warlike opposition (though with Izzy in the game, it may be impossible). This strategy guide assumes that you already know how to use diplomacy to keep the peace. That's a whole topic in itself and deserving of its own thread. If you really want to win though, here are the peacemongers, in approximate order of peace-lovingness: Mansa, Cyrus, Hatshepsut, Asorka, Ghandi, Catherine, Frederick, Louis. Also, this strategy assumes you know how to cottage spam.

More settings: low sea level helps A LOT to expand to the requisite six cities. If using Pangea, a "pressed" coastline, as I understand it, presents "sub-continents" (which = good! cut off your opponents!) but without a lot of islands (which require naval investment = a waste); but I personally enjoy "random" -- call me sentimental. (Temperate or Tropical both work fine.)

There are three main obstacles to a peaceful cultural win on Deity: building the Pyramids before the AI, expanding fast enough to get six cities, and achieving legendary culture before the AI launches the ship. Seldom will the AI win by any other means using this strategy.

First City Build Order

This all depends on a succesful start. It's pretty easy after that. The challenge is to both build the Pyramids and not get boxed in. It's not easy, but this seems to work best: Worker > expand to population size two while building a warrior (you can finish him later) > as soon as size two, switch to Settler > expand to size three while finishing the warrior/starting new one > Worker #2 > Pyramids. After that, I build whatever seems most necessary until the "temple spam" stage.

I never build any barracks or any troops other than one warrior per city. I don't hook up with copper until I've built six warriors, so that the option is present to build warriors and not the more expensive axemen or spearmen. If diplomacy fails and someone invades (rarely happens), retire, rinse, and repeat.

Starting Research Path

Bronze > Masonry > Wheel > Agriculture > Pottery > Writing > Alphabet

Teching after that is a matter of researching techs that the AI is slow to attack, so that you can use them to trade. So, for example, I never research Calendar or Mathematics, because the AI always researches them, and I can trade for them, whereas if I research them, I can't trade anything for them because the AI already has them. So techs like Paper for example that aren't a big deal in most games become important to research relatively early, because the AI researches them late, and you can trade them for others. You need to make early contact with all or most of the AI to establish tech trades so you can win.

What to Do

First of all, be aware that in a peaceful world on Deity, the AI will launch their rocket any time between 1500 and 1850 (or even earlier perhaps on larger maps). The more opponents you have, the faster the AI launches the ship. On a standard map with six opponents, expect 1500-1700. The AI finishes faster on larger maps. You will need to finish early to win peacefully, and sometimes, the AI just outraces you. If you can manipulate them into war with each other diplomatically, that's a good thing.

At first, micromanage your capital with an emphasis on food and growth if not building a worker or settler. Don't worry about defense. Even if you play with barbarians turned on, the land gets settled so fast that the fog of war vaporizes, along with the barbs.

Use your first worker to chop two or three forests to accelerate Settler spawning. As soon as you finish Masonry, quit chopping and improve the stone square. In addition to being required for the Pyramids, this helps a ton with speeding up settler production. You don't need roads until just before switching to Pyramid building, and if you're lucky and both the stone and your first city are on a river, you don't need roads at all until much later.

By now you've finished the first settler. Settle in a spot that will allow you to cottage spam later and which blocks off and claims potential territory from your nearest opponent the most effectively. Build another settler right away. Move worker number one with settler number two, as soon as the worker finishes its task when settler two is spawned. Improve one food square if in cultural boundaries and then chop until the second worker is about done in the first city. Time your first worker's arrival back to your capital with the production of worker number two. Hook up to stone using both workers. Switch to Pyramids the second the stone is hooked up and don't stop until you finish it. If the AI beats you to the Pyramids, rinse and repeat. After the stone is hooked up, have one worker mine all of your hills while the other chops everything in sight. You want to be as large as happiness allows to occupy those mines. You may need to improve a food resource to have enough food to support your miners. Put everything you've got into finishing the Pyramids, because if you don't, it's over.

The reason you need the Pyramids isn't so much for the happiness boost from Representation (though it's nice)--it's so you can buy religious buildings later, without having to tech all the way to universal suffrage.

Meanwhile, city number two needs to produce settler(s) ASAP. You need six cities to win, but only three of them need to be good cities. A "good" city in this strategy is one that you can cottage spam with and which is connected to fresh water. Health resources are more important than luxury resources. All of the general resources are useless except stone, marble, and copper. Stone you absolutely must have to build the Pyramids. Stone, marble, and copper are the resources that double production speed of the major religious buildings like Cathedrals, Academies, and Mandirs, which is why they are nice to have. Only stone is essential, though. After building the Pyramids and establishing three cities that you can cottage spam with, you're over the hump.

It's a challenge on Deity even to get three decent and three marginal cities without war, but it can be done. Really once you get that third one, you're usually home free, because you can often squeeze three more cities in around the edges of your cultural borders somewhere. Don't worry if your opponent's borders encroach upon your marginal cities. Believe, me you will beat their borders back big time in the end and before they flip you. In fact, if an opponent builds close to your capital or one of your three culture cities, you can usually flip it by the end game, which sometimes has provided me with my sixth requisite city.

Try to cut off your opponents from access to a peninsula, even if there are no resources on it. You can use it later to place those marginal cities. And don't worry if your three other cities occupy crummy positions. In the end, it really doesn't matter that much. Only the cultural cities matter in the end.

You will almost always receive at least two engineers from the Pyramids if you don't dilute the engineer gene pool. Use the first one on the Great Library, and use the second one on either the Sistine Chapel or the Taj Mahal. Don't build the Great Library in the city you want to use to spawn Great Artists later.

In a perfect world, you will manage your great people production so that you receive exactly three scientists from the Great Library before your Great Artist farm overwhelms it. Use all of your scientists to build academies in your three cultural cities. The cultural bonus they provide is just as valuable as the science boost. An academy in each cultural city provides double the value of being a civ with the cultural trait.

UPDATE: With regard to the previous two paragraphs, I no longer think that building the Great Library is a good idea in most cases. Subsequent experience indicates that keeping the Great Artist gene pool pure leads to earlier victories. Hope for only one engineer, and use it on the Sistine Chapel. Focus all of your energy on Great Artists only.

After building the Pyramids, focus on cottage spamming, occupying as many cottaged tiles as possible continually while growing. Don't worry about amassing culture in your beginning game. Almost all of it will come in your end game, when you turn your culture bar up all the way.

The overall plan is: cottage spam and tech as fast as possible; shut off all technology at a certain point (more on this later) and keep the culture bar as low as possible without having unhappy citizens, maximizing your gold input; meanwhile buy religious buildings; then crank up the culture bar. I know this part of the game plan is familiar to many of you, and I certainly don't claim originality here.

After other civs switch to Emancipation, you will probably have to turn up the culture a little to maintain happiness. Remember, the idea is to increase commerce and BUY all the religious buildings, so it's fine to not have much culture until the end. After you quit researching, the AI will gift you some techs, often good ones. That's the bonus of being a "backwards people." :)

I struggle with the question of when to quit teching. It seems to me the options are, in successive order: right after liberalism (for Free Speech), after Nationalism (for the Hermitage), or after Printing Press (for the bonus gold). My best game was when quitting after Printing Press, but I got some lucky gift techs in that game. Still, I'm leaning toward thinking that is best.

If possible, one of your cities that is not producing culture needs irrigated farms and food resources to be your Great Artist factory (you usually need caste system too). Any artists produced up until about 400-500 AD I add to one of my cultural cities (usually the slowest one). After that, save them for a big round of culture bombs at the end. The culture bombs are great at helping overcome discrepancies between culture levels in your three cultural cities. Everyone who is serious about their cultural games will be interested in O.H. Dog's superb Civ IV Culture Calculator Spreadsheet (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141740). It really helps in planning out your end game.

I never try to found early religions, and I am seldom able to found the late ones. But getting them to spread is usually not a problem in the end. You don't need all the religions, but the more the better. The fewest number I have won with is three religions. Whatever you do, NEVER use Theocracy. You MUST let those religions in! It's much easier for religions to spread on land maps. Trade routes also seem to help.

If there is one overriding world religion, obviously I switch to it, but if there is even one nearby country of an alternate religion, I remain without. I switch to Pacifism only when: a) my neighbors are so pleased with me that the "heathen religion" factor doesn't matter; or b) late in the game when the AI starts switching en masse to Free Religion. Remember: only cities with your state religion receive the great people bonus under Pacifism.

I buy or build every possible major religious building in my three cultural cities. For those who don't know, the six city requirement results from the temple building factor. On small and tiny maps, six temples in any one religion allows you to build three major religious buildings (cathedrals, etc.), and each major religious building provides a 50% bonus to your cultural production. On standard maps, six temples allows you two build two major religious buildings, and if there is a change in this on the larger maps, I'm not aware of it.

Switch to all culture, no income as you approach the end of building your major religious buildings. You don't want to waste your end game production in your cities, so it's OK to finish the last major building in each city with hammers, as opposed to buying it. If you want to estimate what your cities' cultural rates will be when you switch into all-culture mode, turn the culture slider up all the way for a second and check them out on the city screen. Don't forget to slide it back down after you've checked. This will help you to plan ahead. Or for a more precise and sophisticated look: use the culture counter spreadsheet I mentioned earlier.

The major religious buildings are what wins the game. So let's imagine that you receive a modest four religions with six cities on a small map. That means you can buy or build FOUR major religious buildings in EACH cultural city, providing a total plus 200% culture bonus in each of them. One will usually get the Hermitage, too. Combine this with cottage spamming, the other culture producing buildings, any added great artists, and perhaps a wonder; and you can easily create cities that produce 600-800 points of culture per turn by the end game. It doesn't take long to win at that rate.

EDIT: That was a conservative estimate on culture rate. My last Deity game, I had a city amassing culture at 1,080 / turn as I appoached victory.

There are many other nuances, but this post is getting long-winded already, so I'll leave it at that for now. Maybe we can use this thread to elaborate on the strategy and improve it. I would love to hear your questions, advice, criticism, etc.

Good luck peacemongers! Someday, we take over the world. :lol:

VirusMonster
May 16, 2006, 05:39 AM
Gj, I vote 5 stars, but still I don't think it would work on a huge deity map. If you are familiar with my Inca strategy from the other thread, whenever I play vs 17 empires, I get pretty much boxed in. I buy that building Pyramids might be possible, but getting 6 cities up can be problematic. I will try your strat out tough. Sounds solid enough for me. :goodjob:

godotnut
May 16, 2006, 01:30 PM
Thanks VirusMonster. I have read and enjoyed your huge Deity guide. I think a short Quecha rush--just to get the required six cities--could mix well with this strategy. Basically instead of building the first settler in your capital, crank out Quechas immediately and rush your nearest opponent. You can easily capture one or two workers that way too. This might actually be easier than the all peace route, but to me there's also something cool about a Deity win with no war at all.

I also think that in a time-competitive situation, the peaceful route will earn the earlier time, when successful. But I'm not sure about this, and it's a question that I'm interested in.

armstrong
May 16, 2006, 03:48 PM
Wonderful article! :king: I didn't think cultural victories were possible on diety without doing something to really game the map (an archipelago, for instance.) The step-by-step instructions on how to quickly get two settlers out and build the Pyramids is excellent, and useful not just in Diety/Cultural wins. I had a question about one thing, though:

You will almost always receive at least two engineers from the Pyramids if you don't dilute the engineer gene pool. Use the first one on the Great Library, and use the second one on either the Sistine Chapel or the Taj Mahal. Don't build the Great Library in the city you want to use to spawn Great Artists later, but do build the Taj there if you go that route.

I'm curious why you would build the Taj or Sistine in your artist city - it seems like the 10 base culture/turn in a commerce city (20 for the Sistine, once it doubles) would be more useful than the GPP's. As an example (using normal speed):

If you use an engineer to rush the Taj in your artist factory right after you get Nationalism (and stop research there), let's assume you spend 25 turns rush-buying temples/missionaries/big buildings, and then you have 50 turns of 100% culture. (Just an estimate, but it seems ballpark.)

In your artist city, you'd get 75 turns * 8 GPP (with pacifism+national epic), or 600 GPP towards an artist. In a commerce city, you'd get 10 culture * 25 turns * 200% (liberalism) = 450 culture while building the buildings, and 10 culture * 50 turns * 400% (liberalism + 4 cathedrals) = 2,000 culture once they're in place. So, about 2500 culture, more if you take into consideration that some of the buildings get built earlier, you could place it in your Hermitage city, etc.

Looking at the numbers, I have to think that 600 GPP isn't as valuable as 2500 culture unless you aren't making that many great people total (~10 or so, so only 5 great artists.) You would also still get 450 GPP in a commerce city that may or may not be wasted, depending on how high food it is. Analyzing the Sistine is a bit murkier, but if you get it to double by the time your cultural multipliers are in place, it should be worth more than even an entire Great Artist.

Now, I've never tried for a cultural victory on Diety, so my time frames, or number of great people, might be way off... it was just something that jumped out at me :)

Once again, great article! :goodjob:

godotnut
May 16, 2006, 06:00 PM
@armstrong:

Excellent point. When I wrote that, I was thinking of a game when my Great Artist farm and one of my cultural cities were the same. Yet my guide suggests that you have a separate Great Artist farm from your cultural cities--hence the conflict. I updated the original post in consideration of your comment.

I still think that if you can found a fourth city as an artist farm, it's best to keep them separate, so that you can populate more cottages in the cultural city instead of having specialists. In this case, you are absolutely right Armstrong, it would be better to put the Taj or the Sistine Chapel in a culture city.

In reality, it's somtimes impossible to build that separate artist farm, because the AI often grabs all the good spots. In this case, obviously, build the wonders in the artist farm/culture city. Thanks for the clarification!

actionmedia
May 17, 2006, 02:27 AM
If you build wonders in your culture city, all your culture cities become small GP farms. One for the engineer, with the priamids (and maybe the Hanging Gardens, one for GA with Sistine Chapel, Taj Mahal. And maybe one for Great Prophet, if you mange to build the Oracle or the Stonehenge. But I guess, It is a dream on diety game. I never tried it but I think it is a good strategy.

godotnut
May 17, 2006, 04:52 AM
@actionmedia:

The GP points from wonders can't compete with a Great Artist farm, maxing out on food and Great Artist support. It's pretty easy to establish 4-8 artist citizens, resulting in several times as many GP points as a wonder or two can produce. With the Philosophical trait, the National Epic, and Pacifism, you can expect 40-100 Great People points per turn--or even more--in your Great Artist farm. The wonder GP points get overwhelmed by the Great Artist farm and never produce anything.

The exception to this is the Pyramids, which are established long before the Great Artist farm and which should produce two Great Engineers before the artist farm swamps them if you're playing with a philosophical leader.

actionmedia
May 17, 2006, 06:31 AM
I agree, but +4 GPps over those +12 or +15 from specialists is not neglectable. Ad that +10 culture or so and the wonder pay's off the effort.

As for engineer and prophet. They should come early to boost your production. But I guess it is simply impossible to buils so much wonders before the AI on diety level.

armstrong
May 17, 2006, 08:41 PM
I was thinking of a game when my Great Artist farm and one of my cultural cities were the same.

Ah, I see. I guess that's one of the consequences with the land grab on Diety. I'm actually curious now, though, what is the makeup of your artist/culture city? Normally, when I have a city like that, it's because I play on lower difficulties, and it's a high food, high production coastal city that can actually build the wonders, but that's not an option on Diety...

So, my question is: how do you split the tiles between cottages and specialists in your hybrid city? There's obviously an ideal point where the city is at max size and running as many artists as possible, but you're not going to reach that with a fast win. I've found that for cottages to be really useful in fast cultural victories, you need to work them early. Do you have any general guidelines (e.g., grow at least 3, 4, 5 food a turn and work as many artists as possible, work all cottages until you've almost made your last Engineer/Scientist, etc.) for distributing the tiles?

Also, a couple of tangential things: I tried replicating this on Emperor, and I found I was really stymied by lack of worker technologies. Going Bronze->Masonry->Wheel directly meant I was working unimproved tiles except for stone and mines - it didn't seem to make much sense to grow my capital to size 3 on 3F1C tiles. What do you think of Qin? He'd allow you (if you make sure to start with grain crops) to get a faster start (Agriculture instead of Fishing, and Industrious) - you'd miss out on some great artists in the end, but you'd have a useful worker tech to start with and speed up everything (including the Pyramids) a bit.

Finally, what's your opinion on coastal cities for commerce/culture cities? It seems that the trade income is good (and being able to connect them with Sailing rather than roads is really nice in a peaceful world), but you trade some cottages and production for fishing boats/lighthouses to get it, and by the time you can trade for Compass for harbors, you're probably busy with religious infrastructure/missionaries.

Okay, and second finally (ultimately? ;)), how do you handle distribution of your religions? Do you use any missionaries until all cities have gotten "natural" religion spread? Do you pre-build/position missionaries?

Once again, great guide :)

walkerjks
May 18, 2006, 01:47 PM
Ah, I see. I guess that's one of the consequences with the land grab on Diety.
That's exactly right. A great artist city will never produce as much culture as a city in good terrain optimized for culture with cottages. Along with the land grab limitation (at deity, you rarely have a chance to grab 3 good cottage spots and a good great person spot, you also begin to run into some cottage growth limitations with fast wins.

Ideally, you want your cottages to be towns at the end of the game. That's easy enough for your first couple of cities, but the timeline simply doesn't allow your 4th, 5th, or 6th city's cottages to become towns before the game ends. So the ideal may be something like 1st, 2nd, and 3rd cities being cottage cities and the 4th city being the great person city, but realistically that doesn't happen all that often.

One comment about the strategy guide (which is very good) - your first 3 or 4 cities are going to cover the cultural cities and great person city requirement. But what do you do with your 5th and 6th cities? My recommendation - place them where you have the most bonus food. This often means coastal by a couple bonus food resources. These spots don't work so well as culture cities (not enough space for cottages), but are great as secondary great person cities. +8 excess food is worth 4 specialists, which is worth a couple extra great artists over the course of a game. They can also be used to helped micromanage finances late in the game. Once a city has produced it's last great artist, switch the specialists over to great merchants. The extra cash allows you to run the culture bar a little higher at the end of the game. The combined affect of extra great people and higher culture bar can shave a significant amount of turns off of a win.

godotnut
May 18, 2006, 03:59 PM
One comment about the strategy guide (which is very good) - your first 3 or 4 cities are going to cover the cultural cities and great person city requirement. But what do you do with your 5th and 6th cities?

Thanks for the compliment. Weren't you in on Beta Gauntlet III (and finished very well, I might add). I seem to recall picking up a tip or two from your strategy.

Terrain permitting, your plan for cities five and six sounds right to me. If you're lucky, you have sea resources, and if not you can often use a food resource from one of your cultural cities. You don't need those extra food resources in your culture cities when you've stopped growing and switched to all cottage mode, so yes, use that food for GAs and end-game Great Merchants. Good point.

godotnut
May 18, 2006, 04:10 PM
@armstrong:

I'll try to answer your questions. I only build a "hybrid city" when I can't settle a seprarate GA farm (which, as walkerjks points out, is quite often), and if I have to do it, I still try to populate as many cottages as possible. The hybrid city, if needed, is simply the one of cultural cities with the most food.

re: improvements. Well, your stone square will get improved, and, as I mentioned, if you have any farmable resources, they will get improved too. I'm not sure that going for Animal Husbandry is worth it. That detour can cost you a lot of tech time, if the AI beats you to Alphabet. Perhaps on a standard or larger map with more people to trade with, this would be viable.

re: Qin. I like Qin as an all-around leader, and I've had some succesful games with him on Emporer. I wouldn't use him on any levels above that, as the industrious bonus will wind up only helping you on the Pyramids, Hermitage, and the National Epic.

Sometimes I'll use a coastal city plush with food resources for a cultural city, but only if there are some cottagable tiles nearby--five may be the absolute minimum.

VirusMonster
May 19, 2006, 10:04 AM
Thanks VirusMonster. I have read and enjoyed your huge Deity guide. I think a short Quecha rush--just to get the required six cities--could mix well with this strategy. Basically instead of building the first settler in your capital, crank out Quechas immediately and rush your nearest opponent. You could probably capture your second worker that way too. This might actually be easier than the all peace route, but to me there's also something cool about a Deity win with no war at all.

sup :D After some long tedious work, I updated my article with saves from my current 1.61 HOF mod game. The saves are about capturing 6 cities by 2500BC. I also included a link to your article, because I think it is great. I also rewrote parts of the article with fresh ideas, fewer words, did some underlining, bolding, etc. :)

I agree that a combination of quechua rush upto 6-7 cities followed by your cultural win strategy is very possible, but I didn't have the time to test it out yet. You just need a stone to begin with and by 2500BC you can have 6 cities up and running. The target cities don't have to be crappy ones either, they can be all good production and commerce cities with at least 3 initial population.

After initial warmongering, cultural win would be so cool ;) :goodjob:

walkerjks
May 19, 2006, 02:54 PM
I agree that a combination of quechua rush upto 6-7 cities followed by your cultural win strategy is very possible, but I didn't have the time to test it out yet. You just need a stone to begin with and by 2500BC you can have 6 cities up and running. The target cities don't have to be crappy ones either, they can be all good production and commerce cities with at least 3 initial population.

After initial warmongering, cultural win would be so cool ;) :goodjob:

A few of us tried this is Guantlet 3 with pretty good results -

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/index.php?show=cond&difficulty=Emperor&pubID=11&mapSize=Small&incBeta=on&speed=Any&submit=Go

I would actually recommend the Inca approach for games with random opponents. Taking out the thorniest neighbor early can save a lot of headaches later. There is also greater ability to get stone or marble resources. Finally, you can often grab an early religion (via conquest) which can help with the finances late in the game.

One other possibility is to combine Inca rushing with an overloaded map. If you add extra civs (particularly on smaller maps where you can overload without using really aggressive civs). Overloading gives you the three nice advantages:

1) More civs means each civ will less space to work with so the AI is less likely to runaway with tech. You are not as limited since you will simply take the land you need.

2) More civs means more opportunities for tech trading. Tech trading is the single fastest way to get to the tech target for 100% culture. Of course the AI will trade more as well, somewhat offsetting the #1 advantage - but if you can stay a tech ahead in one line, such as to liberalism, you can trade for the rest of what you need).

3) More civs means your neighbors are closer, making your earlier conquests much closer. This is keeps your city costs down since distance modifiers can take up most of your commerce at deity.

VirusMonster
May 20, 2006, 04:07 AM
A few of us tried this is Guantlet 3 with pretty good results -

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/index.php?show=cond&difficulty=Emperor&pubID=11&mapSize=Small&incBeta=on&speed=Any&submit=Go

I would actually recommend the Inca approach for games with random opponents. Taking out the thorniest neighbor early can save a lot of headaches later. There is also greater ability to get stone or marble resources. Finally, you can often grab an early religion (via conquest) which can help with the finances late in the game.

One other possibility is to combine Inca rushing with an overloaded map. If you add extra civs (particularly on smaller maps where you can overload without using really aggressive civs). Overloading gives you the three nice advantages:

1) More civs means each civ will less space to work with so the AI is less likely to runaway with tech. You are not as limited since you will simply take the land you need.

2) More civs means more opportunities for tech trading. Tech trading is the single fastest way to get to the tech target for 100% culture. Of course the AI will trade more as well, somewhat offsetting the #1 advantage - but if you can stay a tech ahead in one line, such as to liberalism, you can trade for the rest of what you need).

3) More civs means your neighbors are closer, making your earlier conquests much closer. This is keeps your city costs down since distance modifiers can take up most of your commerce at deity.

Very good points! My preferred settings are almost exactly like yours. The saves I updated are practically identical to your description. I also put a link to your HOF score table with Inca scores :D Here is the link for the saves.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169930

uberfish
May 20, 2006, 12:09 PM
Interesting this post came up because I have been playing deity with Elizabeth recently (out-of-the-box default settings: Standard, Continents, Normal speed, 6 random AI) and finally managed to get a cultural victory recently.

My strategy is a bit different. I'm usually a worker first player, but recently I have been approaching Deity by training a warrior first to clear fog, then settler. The earlier settler is more likely to be able to claim a good city site before the AI grabs them all. Both cities then produce a worker when it's safe to do so. If the local terrain is heavy on flatlands with animals I'll research towards AH, otherwise bronze.

Sometimes some AI (usually Alex) wipes me out with an archer/chariot/axe rush which there's no possible way to defend, or I don't find/connect military resources in time and barbarians sack a city. Sometimes I get boxed into a 2 city peninsula and have no bronze to claw my way out. Like the OP I just take this as a hazard of playing at Deity, and laugh it off and start a new game if this happens.

I don't rely on pyramids since I never seem to have stone anyway. I also avoid great library if planning on a cultural victory, as I dislike the Scientist pollution it causes. I'll spawn 2-4 scientists from regular specialists and use them for either academies or to burn on Philosophy/Education. All other GP production goes to artists, a few GE points from a Forge are also good if the possible engineer arrives in time to pop Taj Mahal or Statue of Liberty.

My research goals are typically Alphabet, Drama, CS, Liberalism trading for everything off that path if possible. I can never seem to beat the AI to music at deity.

I started by trying to turn off research at Democracy. Often democracy pays off just to run Emancipation for cottage growth, and trade for economics/corporation. However, I kept getting killed by Toku or some other warmonger AI dropping an amphibious force somewhere between knights and riflemen. In my successful game I researched Rifling which allowed me to beat Toku and Caesar's invading forces off with redcoats. I also had to tech up to Medicine to deal with serious health problems, which turned out to be a good move in that game as Environmentalism saved me from major starvation when all my seafood resources were being pillaged. I won in 1848 with the leading AI still needing two or three major spaceship parts.

I also actually prefer the great artist farm to be one of the 3 culture cities with a food surplus and run it in hybrid mode, if I can find a suitable site. National Epic, Globe Theatre and the culture from the artists adds up.

I never see ultra-early spaceship launches (they build Apollo very early because they prioritise rocketry, but generally won't launch until sometime in the 19th century), but then I do see quite a lot of inter-AI wars.

I think for high scores Inca + overcrowded map is probably optimal, but I personally don't like playing this way.

ThorRex
May 23, 2006, 07:51 AM
What factors affect the cultural level that must be achieved in the three cultured cities? The Civilopedia says three cities at 50,000 at normal speed. What about Epic speed? Are there any other things that affect the target culture level? I am guessing this does not vary by difficulty level? Thanks in advance for any help.

walkerjks
May 23, 2006, 09:06 AM
What factors affect the cultural level that must be achieved in the three cultured cities? The Civilopedia says three cities at 50,000 at normal speed. What about Epic speed? Are there any other things that affect the target culture level? I am guessing this does not vary by difficulty level? Thanks in advance for any help.
Game speed is the only variable. 25K/city on fast, 50K on normal, 75K on epic, and 150K on marathon.

davelisowski
May 23, 2006, 09:22 AM
What factors affect the cultural level that must be achieved in the three cultured cities? The Civilopedia says three cities at 50,000 at normal speed. What about Epic speed? Are there any other things that affect the target culture level? I am guessing this does not vary by difficulty level? Thanks in advance for any help.

here's a useful tool: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141740

Legendary city:
50,000 - Normal speed
75,000 - Epic speed
150,000 - Marathon speed

godotnut
May 23, 2006, 02:08 PM
At the suggestion of VirusMonster, I tried this strat combined with an early Quecha rush. It took me three tries, but I just completed a 1550 finish on a small Deity Pangea map.

I blew the best starting position I've ever had the first game (corn, pigs, gold, stone, and more in my starting position) because I got too greedy and over-extended my Quecha rush in a quest for gold.

The second game, I tried to keep a city that was too far away from my capital, and killed my early research economy. I quit when I realized that the AI had beat me to alphabet.

The third time worked swell, and with a little better luck/fine tuning, I might be able to beat my best time from the Beta HOF using Huyana instead of Liz. Ultimately, with the right luck, I think Liz will score an earlier finish than the Inca; however, after this last game I'm convinced that Huyana will win more consistently. Of course, then it's not a "totally peaceful" cultural victory. :)

Two suggestions: only go after one opponent, and only keep his/her second city if it is either a) close to your capital or b) has gold/gems. And, don't overload the map too much, or you won't get your six cities, even with the Quecha.

VirusMonster
May 24, 2006, 07:33 AM
At the suggestion of VirusMonster, I tried this strat combined with an early Quecha rush. It took me three tries, but I just completed a 1550 finish on a small Deity Pangea map.

I blew the best starting position I've ever had the first game (corn, pigs, gold, stone, and more in my starting position) because I got too greedy and over-extended my Quecha rush in a quest for gold.

The second game, I tried to keep a city that was too far away from my capital, and killed my early research economy. I quit when I realized that the AI had beat me to alphabet.

The third time worked swell, and with a little better luck/fine tuning, I might be able to beat my best time from the Beta HOF using Huyana instead of Liz. Ultimately, with the right luck, I think Liz will score an earlier finish than the Inca; however, after this last game I'm convinced that Huyana will win more consistently. Of course, then it's not a "totally peaceful" cultural victory. :)

Three suggestions: only go after one opponent, and only keep his/her second city if it is either a) close to your capital or b) has gold/gems. Finally, don't overload the map too much, or you won't get your six cities, even with the Quecha.

Great job man :) I always try to continue my warmongering after 6 cities have been captured, but so far, I always get crushed, mainly because I can't defend on time vs the AI's axeman&swordsman stacks. Seems like you are having the same problem. In my most successful attempts, where all cities are really close to each other, I can remain at %40-50 research after 6-7 cities. You can download & lookup the new saves I uploaded to see what I mean.

So I have some questions and suggestions for you. First let me start with my question:

My research path for quechua rush is: A basic tech to improve land around my capital (It can be any first lvl tech) > Wheel>Pottery>Writing>CoL. Only after CoL, I switch to mining, followed by bronzeworking. I don't want to waste time researching simple techs, because most cities I capture have already all land improved around them. All I need is roads to hook them up to trade network.

Compared to your tech line, I am not researching bronzeworking and agriculture(comes free with Incas), thus I can reach CoL pretty quickly, but I am curious whether having Alphabet first instead of CoL is a better idea. What you say on that point? I always thought courthouses were crucial in continuing a rapid expansion. After alphabet, can you trade any useful techs, such as mathematics or CoL? I also experienced that the AI researches Alphabet pretty late.

Now my suggestions :) Keep in mind I tried over 100 different quechua rush games. Although I never really succeeded in beating huge deity, but I am confident to have found the optimal way to gain 6 cities.

1) With the ultimate luck, you can pump out sufficient quechuas to wipe our your first civilizations by 2900BC. 3310BC to conquer your first capital of size 4(!), 3055BC to conquer your 2nd city of size 3(!), 2900BC to raze the 3rd city.

Are you sure you are trying the quechua rush with the right city placement? If you place your initial city on a plains/hill, it will give you 2hammers per turn. In my experience, it makes a huge difference on the number of quechuas you can pump, thus makes your early warmongering much more successful.

I strongly suggest waiting until 3310BC for first war declaration. From your description, I don't think you are waiting long enough to let enemy cities grow in size. After so many games, I think capturing a size(4) capital with all land improved is the best one can do. Enemy capital grows to size 4 around 3340BC-3310BC. I also keep the 2nd city of the first civilization as well, but raze the 3rd.

2) At that point, 2900BC, if you are lucky, the 2nd target civilization is nearby and you don't have to travel much. Pump out new quechuas from the cities you captured, and you should be wiping out the 2nd civilization by 2400BC. I keep 3 cities from the next civilization as well, thus now control 6 cities. The cities I captued were all size (4)! and were not running on a deficit.

Your best city could of course be focused on the Pyramids construction.

You should look up the saves from my article for visual proof that it is doable. It happens rarely, but when it happens you can control 6 cities by 2400BC.

I understand you want to stop with the rapid expansion and switch to main game plan, expand normally to 6 cities using settlers, but wiping out the 2nd civilizations has so far been an easier job to me.

3) Of course, I tried it on a overcrowded huge map. I am not afraid of being surrounded by many civilizations such that there is no space for a settler to expand.

Being surrounded is exactly what I want, because then, quechuas don't have to travel much to find a target civilization. Distance costs are another problem. I would suggest getting max. possible number of civilizations HOF rules allow for the map size you play on. It is 18 for a huge map, I am not sure how much it is for a small map.

2nd civ I wipe out can be an aggressive one as well, because archers don't get the +%10 strength bonus. You can still capture cities from the aggressive civilization.

Great job again :D :goodjob: Hope your tactics scores highest points on HOF :D

godotnut
May 24, 2006, 01:10 PM
VirusMonster,

Compared to your tech line, I am not researching bronzeworking and agriculture(comes free with Incas), thus I can reach CoL pretty quickly, but I am curious whether having Alphabet first instead of CoL is a better idea. What you say on that point?

If you can do that and still beat most of your opponents to alphabet, it sounds like a good plan. My tech path in the Quecha game was: Masonry>Wheel>Mining>Writing>Alphabet>etc. I could tell that the early Quecha start allowed me to expand and build the Pyramids without early chopping, so I waited on Bronze.

I think getting alphabet before the opposition is crucial. I received the following techs in exchange for alphabet (and writing, which Cyrus didn't have yet): Iron Working, Bronze Working, Mysticism, Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, Camping, Animal Husbandry, and Sailing. As you can see, this speeds up teching immensely. Then having alphabet, I continued to research techs the AI avoids and received COL, Monotheism, Mathematics, Calendar, and many others for free. My finish time would have been centuries slower without early alphabet.

Attacking two opponents to capture six very early cities could work with a cultural game, but it presents some problems: Poor AI city placement. For one, the AI cities are often not supplied with fresh water--what does the AI care, since it's playing on easy difficulty with a big health bonus? You NEED that water to expand on Deity.

Diplomacy. The crowded map required by this makes diplomacy much harder. More AIs means more opponents who might invade later. It also means more "our close borders spark tensions" negatives, as well as more "you declared war on our friends negatives." It's a pretty big bummer when you have an excellent start and everything is going fine, when WHAM, in comes an invasion. Game over.

Since I had no problem expanding to six cities with my own Settlers after I eliminated one opponents (in fact, I eventually had seven cities, and ALL of them were able to expand to size 10 at least before the game ended, including TWO small artist factories), it seems to me the take-out-one-opponent, don't-crowd-the-map-too-much approach is best if you want to finish with a cultural win.

Your other points about timing of city captures sound really good to me, and I need to use them to fine tune my early aggression a little.

My plan is to work my way through increasingly large maps as I take the Deity cultural victory slots in the HOF :D. In theory, I'll eventually have to face a huge map, and then we'll really see if it's possible or not... at least for me anyway.

VirusMonster
May 30, 2006, 05:42 AM
VirusMonster,

I think getting alphabet before the opposition is crucial. I received the following techs in exchange for alphabet (and writing, which Cyrus didn't have yet): Iron Working, Bronze Working, Mysticism, Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, Camping, Animal Husbandry, and Sailing. As you can see, this speeds up teching immensely. Then having alphabet, I continued to research techs the AI avoids and received COL, Monotheism, Mathematics, Calendar, and many others for free. My finish time would have been centuries slower without early alphabet.

Attacking two opponents to capture six very early cities could work with a cultural game, but it presents some problems: Poor AI city placement. For one, the AI cities are often not supplied with fresh water--what does the AI care, since it's playing on easy difficulty with a big health bonus? You NEED that water to expand on Deity.

Diplomacy. The crowded map required by this makes diplomacy much harder. More AIs means more opponents who might invade later. It also means more "our close borders spark tensions" negatives, as well as more "you declared war on our friends negatives." It's a pretty big bummer when you have an excellent start and everything is going fine, when WHAM, in comes an invasion. Game over.

Since I had no problem expanding to six cities with my own Settlers after I eliminated one opponents (in fact, I eventually had seven cities, and ALL of them were able to expand to size 10 at least before the game ended, including TWO small artist factories), it seems to me the take-out-one-opponent, don't-crowd-the-map-too-much approach is best if you want to finish with a cultural win.

Your other points about timing of city captures sound really good to me, and I need to use them to fine tune my early aggression a little.

My plan is to work my way through increasingly large maps as I take the Deity cultural victory slots in the HOF :D. In theory, I'll eventually have to face a huge map, and then we'll really see if it's possible or not... at least for me anyway.

I tested out Alphabet first instead of CoL; it works out great. I go Wheel-> Pottery(for early cottages)->(a basic tech maybe, fishing&masonry&anibal husbandry&mining)->Writing-> Alphabet. It just works great, much better than CoL first. I am able to receive many techs just for writing and if I delay giving out Alphabet, I can even get some high level techs. If I have a large enough empire on the end after my conquests reach their upkeep limit, I can demand techs for free from weaker civilizations:)

I agree that a crowded map makes diplomacy much harder. In most of my games, the peace period is very short. It might be true that for a cultural win less number of opponents could be better; I am not sure 10 or 18 civs work best for a cultural win on a huge map.

Congrats again on your deity cultural win :) :goodjob:

P.s. Godotnut let's add each other on MSN if you like, we might play multiplayer maybe :)

MazX_TheDog
Jun 06, 2006, 08:55 AM
I have a question that is n00bish I'm sure. If you are not founding these religions how are you getting 3+ in your territories? I play on noble but I want to attempt your strat in a game. The AI never seems to give me religion and I am wondering how you did it.

godotnut
Jun 06, 2006, 12:55 PM
@MazX

Religions spread on their own, regardless of whether the AI wants to spread them or not. Missionaries only make things faster. Religions spread on their own much easer if there is no ocean between you and the founding city, so all-land maps help. You also want open borders with everyone, and, if possible, trade routes. It's also best to NOT spread religions on your own until the "temple spam" stage. It's easier for new religions to spread in cities that don't already have them.

Sometimes it takes until relatively late in the game, but if you are patient and don't panic, you will almost always get at least three religions by the time of your "temple spam" stage. I receive four religions on average.

Never tried it on Noble, but I'm almost positive you'll have the same results. Good luck!

Zombie69
Jun 06, 2006, 04:49 PM
I think getting alphabet before the opposition is crucial. I received the following techs in exchange for alphabet (and writing, which Cyrus didn't have yet): Iron Working, Bronze Working, Mysticism, Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, Camping, Animal Husbandry, and Sailing. As you can see, this speeds up teching immensely. Then having alphabet, I continued to research techs the AI avoids and received COL, Monotheism, Mathematics, Calendar, and many others for free. My finish time would have been centuries slower without early alphabet.

Could you win this kind of game with tech trading off? I'm interested because i'm starting to play Deity now and i always play with tech trading off - it's more challenging but much more fun to me. Care to try?

godotnut
Jun 06, 2006, 05:18 PM
@Zombie69:

Right now, I'm focusing my free games on HOF games, so I don't know if I'm up for the "no tech trading" attempt personally. Please let us know how it goes in this thread!

Could it be done? I don't know for sure, but since "no tech trading" not only slows down your own, but also the AI's tech research, I would think it would be entirely possible to win. I don't think, however, that your finish time would be that great (not enough for the HOF anyway).

BTW, if you have trouble with the "all peaceful" route, try it with a Quecha rush as described previously in this thread. Since the new patch and nerfed chopping, I'm finding that it's a little easier than the all peace route. All peace can still be done though, as my HOF Deity small map game indicates.

Zombie69
Jun 06, 2006, 06:13 PM
I wouldn't want to try it myself, since i dislike all but domination and conquest victories (and in fact don't consider the others as victories at all). But i was curious to hear if it could be done, and also if you personally could do it. My personal guess is that it would be much harder if at all possible, but i'd very much like the opinion of an expert in this type of game. Maybe if you find the time later on? Think of it as a challenge, a different kind than what you're used to.

godotnut
Jun 06, 2006, 07:26 PM
I wouldn't want to try it myself, since i dislike all but domination and conquest victories (and in fact don't consider the others as victories at all). But i was curious to hear if it could be done, and also if you personally could do it. My personal guess is that it would be much harder if at all possible, but i'd very much like the opinion of an expert in this type of game. Maybe if you find the time later on? Think of it as a challenge, a different kind than what you're used to.

Well, I might give it a shot sometime. But I don't really think that "no tech trading" would make it much harder to win. The only problem it would present is teching to Liberalism (or Nationalism, or Printing Press) fast enough to beat the AI to the space race. And since the AI would be slowed down as well, the loss of trades--from which clever human players do admittedly benefit more than the AI--would be relatively minimal. If you are never at war then falling behind in techs matters much less--who cares if the opposition has riflemen to my warriors?

Now if we were discussing a space race, where you have to tech much further, then the difference in difficulty would be more pronounced.

I can see why someone would consider some victory conditions less fun than others (I personally find the end of domination games to be incredibly tedious--you already know you've won, yet you have spend endless time moving around all those troops ... yawn).

But why on earth would you not consider the other victories built into the game to be REAL victories? A huge part of why Civ is such a great game stems from the fact that it provides multiple ways to win and strategies to get there. Reducing it to only a war game would seem to rob the game of its complexity and interest--turning it into just a more elaborate version of the board game "Risk."

MazX_TheDog
Jun 06, 2006, 10:01 PM
Just completed my first Noble victory by culture. Thanks for the advice, I used a lot of it to accomplish the win. On Archiapaelgo I managed to get 3 religions in my cities and completed the win before the 2nd casing was built.

godotnut
Jun 06, 2006, 10:04 PM
Excellent job MazX. Congrats.

Zombie69
Jun 06, 2006, 10:33 PM
If you are never at war then falling behind in techs matters much less--who cares if the opposition has riflemen to my warriors?

Now if we were discussing a space race, where you have to tech much further, then the difference in difficulty would be more pronounced.

Good point.

But why on earth would you not consider the other victories built into the game to be REAL victories? A huge part of why Civ is such a great game stems from the fact that it provides multiple ways to win and strategies to get there. Reducing it to only a war game would seem to rob the game of its complexity and interest--turning it into just a more elaborate version of the board game "Risk."

Maybe a more elaborate version of RISK is what i want after all. Or Civ 1 for that matter (which only contained two victory types and was still a great game). Cultural victory just seems like a big fat loss to me. To each his own.

jesusin
Jun 30, 2006, 06:08 AM
Nice thread.

I have been playing cultural lately. I have never built Pyramids or Great Library, though, because I want to keep my GP 100% artist, with the exception of the first one for the capital's Academy. My results have been much worst than yours.

I have yet to try Universal Sufrage. Can anyone inform me what is the rate hammers/gold that you get with 1.61?

godotnut
Jun 30, 2006, 12:23 PM
Can anyone inform me what is the rate hammers/gold that you get with 1.61?

3 Gold = 1 Hammer

Good Luck!

Galileo44
Jun 30, 2006, 03:51 PM
Thanks godotnut!! I used this strategy to get my first culture wins on Prince a couple weeks ago, and as this victory type has haunted me for a while I would like to give you the credit.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

godotnut
Jun 30, 2006, 05:42 PM
Thanks Galileo -- and congratulations on your win!

El_Raisuli
Jul 01, 2006, 07:59 PM
I just wanted to say that this is an excellent article, godotnut. I recently attempted my first game on monarch difficulty, and had decided to go for a cultural win since it was the only victory type I hadn't achieved in Civ IV. I didn't notice your article until afterward, though, and I had therefore not anticipated the potency of cottage spam combined with the culture slider - I kind of stumbled onto that fact by mistake since two of my culture cities were sort of half-cottage spammed anyway. Your article has certainly helped me streamline my tactics for my next cultural effort.

I did have a question. Even during the later stages of my game, the only religion that had spread to my cities was Christianity. This was largely because I was playing on a continents map, and the only two religions founded on my continent were Christianity and Judaism. If this is a common situation on this map type, do you think it's possible for your strategy to succeed on a Deity continents map? I think it might since the spaceship would be slowed as well - I guess it would come down to whether the AI is slowed more by later contact, or the player is slowed more by the lack of cathedrals?

godotnut
Jul 02, 2006, 02:29 PM
do you think it's possible for your strategy to succeed on a Deity continents map?

In short, yes, it does work on a continents map, or at least I've done it before. But you are taking a little bit of a chance with the religions, as you found out. It gets pretty hard for religions to spread if you are on a continent by yourself, so I would restart if I found that situation. But if you were on a continent with a religious leader, that would help.

I've also recently found that it's possible to found one or more of the late religions yourself, if you work at it and use a great priest to grab a tech (or a great artist, for Divine Right). I managed to found Divine Right in the standard Deity game I have on the current HOF board.

Another thing to consider is that late in the game, you will usually flip some AI cities, and you can often acquire religions that way too. Remember, you don't need multiple religions until quite late in the strategy.

As far as feasibility goes, I think two religions would work in many situations on a continents map, and three in most. Only one would be too little, I fear. Also on a standard map, you need nine cities to build three major religions buildings, so it would help a lot to have nine cities when you have fewer religions.

So the advantage of continents is that it's a little easier to grab early land, and the disadvantage is that it's a little harder for religions to spread. If I were playing with Liz or Mansa, I would consider going with continents, but if I was doing an early Quecha rush with Huyana, I would go with Pangea, since the land grab factor isn't a big deal following a succesful Quecha rush.

I know I'm rambling now, but I have to say that the more I play with him, the more Huyana seems to be THE best leader for Deity.

VirusMonster
Jul 07, 2006, 05:27 PM
I know I'm rambling now, but I have to say that the more I play with him, the more Huyana seems to be THE best leader for Deity.

Long live Huyana, my king!

VirusMonster
Jul 07, 2006, 05:36 PM
Could you win this kind of game with tech trading off? I'm interested because i'm starting to play Deity now and i always play with tech trading off - it's more challenging but much more fun to me. Care to try?

Zombie, man, the Deity difficulty already makes tech trading more difficult; I don't know why you would want to make it harder. I think it is obvious that with tech trading things are easier, because AI can practically double your research. Even if AI can't tech trade, they will still outtech you because of their research bonuses and you will be left with a backwards empire. As of 1.61 patch, I don't think it is possible to beat deity without tech trading. Not even Incan cultural win strategy can cut it, it might come close to tough. Your cultural win would miss the AI spaceship launch by 200-300 years.

My 2 cents.

alatari
Jul 13, 2006, 06:49 AM
This article has been the most useful of all I read so far.

I've played since Avalon Hill Civilization board game and always was able to win at the highest levels. My last Civ 3 game had me at 40,000 points and controlling 100+ cities but get to Civ 4 and umpteen times getting to 1300 AD at diety level and being at best in the middle of the score pack was getting me to the point of chucking it all in the bin.

I'm a peacenik player and only warred if they started it or I got caught stealing technology
They certainly fixed the problem of 'too many cities' errors from the older games. Was at 255 cities on the map from about 800BC onward in that last Civ 3 game.

Thanks for the help godonut. Maybe you'll see me in the HOF later.. har har

godotnut
Jul 13, 2006, 07:32 PM
but get to Civ 4 and umpteen times getting to 1300 AD at diety level and being at best in the middle of the score pack was getting me to the point of chucking it all in the bin.

Don't chuck your cultural Deity game in the bin if you are in the middle of the score pack.

I'm often in last place in score until I win in these kind of games, though even so, you can manage a respectable 40,000+ points for the victory (not that I pay any real attention to Civ4's ridiculous, war-monger-favoring score system).

jesusin
Jul 17, 2006, 03:51 AM
Hi godotnut, maybe you will find the time to clarify my poor understanding of the Universal Suffrage thing.

As stated before, you need 3 gold per hammer bought. That's a lot of money! Where do you get the money from?
My current understanding is that you have 3 different phases in you game as far as the bars are concerned, you first try to be at 100% science (I mean, as high as possible). Then, when you have secured Liberalism and Music (sometimes also PrintP) you go to 100% gold to rush-buy Cathedrals. And when almost all of them are built, you finally change to 100% culture. Is that correct?

How many hammers do you rush-buy in your games?
Do you also rush-buy temples?
Would you be so kind as to provide some guidelines about the number of turns you spend in each phase?
Isn't all that money better spent raising the bar (any of them) from 90% to 100%?


When I follow your start (Pyramids and trying to get 2 GEng) I feel I don't tech fast enough, because of the lack of early Academy in the capital. It gets better after GLib is built, but sometimes research stagnates in the middle of Alph when I grab my 4th or 5th city too soon (when there's still land available!).

Also, when I get a monopoly on a tech, I usually trade it around for whatever tech I can get. Would it be better to gift it away? Or maybe to sell it for money instead of techs that are out of the critical path?

Lots of questions here!

godotnut
Jul 17, 2006, 02:53 PM
jesusin:

Not a lot of time, but here's a start:

I don't know exactly how many hammers I buy, but it's a lot. I may have built one or two major religious buildings before the buying phase, but I buy all but the last two or three major religious buildings. That's typically around 9-12 purchased buildings.

Yes, I also buy most of my temples. Also the Hermitage.

3 gold / hammer may sound like a lot, but with both bars at zero, I'm usually pulling in around 260-360 gold / turn. So that's approximately 110 extra hammers / turn to focus on my three cities -- not too shabby. Then add in the stone, marble, or copper bonus (when you got 'em) and you're talking a much better exchange rate. Buying banks and markets early really pays off too.

Think of the buying stage as a way to focus money (and, hence, hammers) completely into the most important thing: getting up those buildings. And yes, they are worth it. Four major religious buildings in each city (for example) equals plus 200% culture -- you're literally TRIPLING your base culture output.

As far as teching goes, it doesn't matter if you fall a little behind the AI overall when building the Pyramids, as long as you beat them to alphabet. If you do that, you can trade for all or most of the techs that you are behind in, essentially starting from scratch again (and soon now to have the Great Library and academies).

NEVER trade for tech that are not on the way to getting either a) liberalism, b) nationalism (Hermitage) c) music (free artist), or d) printing press (plus two gold per town). Everything else is pretty useless, except maybe grocers for health.

So yes, trade all extra techs that you can't trade for vital techs away for money (if possible) or gift teching to keep 'em happy. The exception to this may be if one AI is really pulling ahead and you fear gift-teching them will let them build the spaceship too fast.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

alatari
Jul 17, 2006, 08:28 PM
Don't chuck your cultural Deity game in the bin if you are in the middle of the score pack.
.

Guess I better dust off the Japanese game where I had made it to Universal Sufferage and had the captitol producing 66 culture per turn without any religious buildings.

godotnut
Jul 17, 2006, 09:22 PM
Guess I better dust off the Japanese game where I had made it to Universal Sufferage and had the captitol producing 66 culture per turn without any religious buildings.

Maybe, but if you teched all the way to universal suffrage, you may have gone too far, wasting time so that the AI launches the ship before you get the culture points. That is, if playing Deity or Immortal. Probably not a problem on lower levels.

I never tech past printing press when playing Deity.

jesusin
Jul 18, 2006, 03:27 AM
Thank you for your answers, godotnut.
I was resisting to believe that buying the cathedrals was a good idea, but now I think I understand why.

I was comparing your strategy to my best documented cultural games: GOTM7 and GOTM8. In both I had already built half of the cathedrals by the time I discovered Liberalism. So basically I was in the point were you stop buying (you don't buy the last cathedral in each city). At that point it is better to have 100% culture and wait for the last cathedral to be completed naturally than have 0% culture a few turns, buy the last cathedral and then go 100% culture.

Now, both GOTM7 and GOTM8 are low difficulty levels compared to Deity, so I had had the oportunity to found religions early and I had spread them much sooner than you could have done in a deity game. Also I suspect that my tech pace is quite slow (16 or 14 turns to discover Education). In a deity game (late religions) played by a better player (faster tech pace) Liberalism should arrive before the first cathedral is built. In that situation, buying the cathedrals is best.

I hope my reasonings can provide someone a better understanding of the game. Your guide definitely does.

godotnut
Jul 18, 2006, 09:06 PM
Also I suspect that my tech pace is quite slow (16 or 14 turns to discover Education). In a deity game (late religions) played by a better player (faster tech pace) Liberalism should arrive before the first cathedral is built. In that situation, buying the cathedrals is best.

That's it exactly. In a decent Deity cultural game, I typically get liberalism around 200AD or so. It's impossible to have many (if any) major religious buildings up at that point.

jesusin
Jul 21, 2006, 01:13 AM
Another question has sprung. I think it is quite relevant.
Should you pile your major religious buildings or should you spread them?

Let’s imagine a 6 cities cultural game, normal speed, standard map. You are philosophical, you have already added 5 superartists and you estimate that you will have 7 cultural bombs by the end of the game. Your legendary cities produce 180, 140 and 120 culture per turn. You have spread 3 religions to all your cities. You are planning where to put your 6 major religious buildings and your Hermitage. Taking Free Speech into consideration, you could have culture multipliers (3 3 4). Or (2.5 3,5 4). Or (4,5 2,5 3)… Which is best? (Please don’t be too touchy with the figures, it is just an example).

My usual way to go is probably inefficient, since it is an intuitive decision, not a calculated one. I would plan to use all my culture bombs in the worst city. Since it will have to reach a lower level of culture on its own, it would be the city with the worst multiplier. Now, I wouldn’t dare to use the better multiplier in the best city, for fear of wasting culture if it reaches legendary long before the others do. So I would typically go for (3,5 4 2,5), 3 cathedrals in the first city, 2 and Hermitage in the second, 1 single cathedral in the third one. I would take production into account, so if the third city has low production I would 99% choose (3,5 4 2,5). Now, 100+ turns later, I find that the best way to use my culture bombs so that the three cities reach legendary status in the same turn is not to add all of them to the third city, but to add 4 to the third city, 1 to the first one and 2 to the second one. That makes me think that my plan “First city stands on its own, second one needs multipliers, third one will do with bombs” was not that efficient.

My current feeling is that you should apply the best multiplier to the best city, so as to maximize total culture output. I have yet to try that. It would lead to (4,5 3,5 2) multipliers, being purist. But maybe it should be softened somewhat, so that all three reach legendary status at the same time.

What do you think? If you are able to find a “magic formula” to take this decision, I think it would be a nice addition to the guide.

Pyrthas
Jul 25, 2006, 04:30 AM
Just wanted to say thanks for the guide. I'd beaten prince with culture just spamming artists, and was starting to try to refine things like research order, but the cottage spamming and rushing for pyramids and alphabet will help a lot. (I'd been resisting turning off barbarians, and might keep trying with them on just to see how high I can get, but I'm also tempted to just go with this and work my way up to deity.) Anyway, thanks.

godotnut
Jul 26, 2006, 11:57 PM
@jesusin:

I don't think there is an easy answer to your question as a whole. I've struggled with this too, and since each game has so many variables, it's hard to come up with a perfect formula (at least for me--I'm sure somebody with a better grasp of math could do it).

Generally speaking, I think of it much the way I think you are describing. My best culture city gets multipliers until I anticipate it will be able to go legendary without any culture bombs. I try to pack my culture bombs mostly in one city to take advantage of the multipliers.

But the with last few Deity games for me on a standard map, it's only been a question of the Hermitage, as I was able to found nine cities without too much problem using Quecha. I often have to use my Hermitage in my second best city in these situations, as placing it in my best city would be too much for the artists to compensate for.

ungy
Aug 29, 2006, 07:29 PM
Godotnut-
thanks for the great thread. I have a question about military--do you build units just to get your count up (I assume you're lost if attacked whether u build them or not) or do you just skip it?

godotnut
Aug 30, 2006, 03:03 AM
Godotnut-
thanks for the great thread. I have a question about military--do you build units just to get your count up (I assume you're lost if attacked whether u build them or not) or do you just skip it?

It depends. If I am playing a HOF game with opponents of my choice, I would probably skip it, but if playing a GOTM game with warmongers nearby, I would probably try to make some kind of early show of force, until open borders, trades, and gift techs work their diplomatic magic.

Kelvenor
Aug 31, 2006, 09:00 AM
Thanks Godotnut for the excellent thread! I have a couple of questions to ask you regarding my personal experience I play Deity/Standard map/Pangea/Marathon speed on Warlord (is this strategy valid for Warlord or just Vanilla?)

That's it exactly. In a decent Deity cultural game, I typically get liberalism around 200AD or so. It's impossible to have many (if any) major religious buildings up at that point. How do you achieved this...what’s your research path after Alphabet. I usually go for Literature to build GL with my first GE from the Pyramids. Where do you build GL capital or GP farm? I know Literature is not a good trade for AI but I don’t want to miss out on the GL for research boost and GS point.

After I build the GL my GE point’s gets deluded (regardless of being in Capital or second city 2 GS vs 1 GE) and I can never get a second GE. With my first GS I build an Academy in the Capital…now how many GS to you usually go for before getting GA. I get 3 GS one in every cultural city and usually manage 4 to 6 GA in a game before a Diplomat vote or spaceship victory. So that’s 8 to 10 GP per game so far (no free GP, never get to Music first or Liberalism).

I have a hard time establishing a GP farm do to lack of space/food resources and balancing GP VS cottage growth) Second city is usually an hybrid GP farm/cottage for cultural. I try to settle in a place that I can spawn a settler ASP wile grabbing available resources near fresh water…but this is usually hard. Third city is cottage plus any food resources I can get that are left.

Also...do you build Monasteries during your buying phase or earlyer since there are usaly cheaper then temple and also provide a +2 culture...What's your a tipical list of buildings in one of your culture city (granary, library, courthouse, aquaduc, market, bank, temple, Cathedrale etc) do you build forge

I think my biggest problem is getting to Liberalism sooner (research path) to have flex time for the buying phase before switching to culture only and GP production, I pretty good at managing peace though.

Lots of questions I know :)

Dorkus
Sep 01, 2006, 05:13 PM
First, great strat. I've played it many times now, and have won multiple deity victories, always before 1600.

Second, I would disagree with the notion that the great artist farm and cultural city should be distinct. The sistine chapel, notre dame, taj mahal, etc. all provide a massive amount of culture, as well as great artist points. It would be a waste to have the ga points, and the cultural bonus (which seems to double after some period of time?) to be split.

It is also incredibly difficult to find 3 decent cities. INCREDIBLY. The only way I've managed is early-game war mongering with the Inca. [aside: I suppose it would be possible with a non-war strat, but you'd have to get lucky with cultural boundaries setting off a peninsula. Even then, you'd have to deal with constant barb raids. At least in warlords, the barbs come VICIOUSLY, 4-5 archers at a time, and you would need a multiple warrior or archer garrison to have any chance (especially if you want to keep your improvements)]

Hoping for 3 great culture cities, PLUS a great artist farm, is just a little too much. Usually, any cities beyond my 3 cultural cities are on the tip of some rocky outcropping, or in the desert, where the ai does not as aggressively settle.

again, great strat. the only one i've been able to use to win on deity, in fact, without gaming the settings. [i still lose quite often, even with this strat, largely because i refuse non-random opponnets. and if you're set down next to montezuma or alexander, it's pretty much game over on deity. ]

PS One last thought: don't think it's a good idea to stick woodenly to a particular tech path. Obviously, bronze working is no go if you have a capital with a bunch of flood plains. And with inca, i've found mining/bronze working are not as important, since there is no need for a (double) settler chop -- you're giong to steal your cities, and becuase you do not start with mining. (which makes the bronze working path much more time consuming)

The key thing is that you not branch out to too many different early techs. On deity level, happiness will be a severe early game constraint, so as long as you have 2-3 good tiles per city, that's enough teching in the early game.

godotnut
Sep 04, 2006, 05:02 AM
@Kelvenor:

I don't have an exact tech path after alphabet. Conditions vary. Depending on the game, I may or may not go for music and the great artist, for example (depending on if I think I can get it); or if I don't think I will have enough religions spread naturally to win, I will sometimes prioritize divine right for Islam in an effort to save the game. Also, great people can affect this, so it's hard to say precisely. Often, I head directly to liberalism using the shortest path possible.

Regarding the Great Library, I actually no longer think building it is a good idea. The loss of artists isn't worth the tech payoff, and I've found that I can keep up pretty well with a good start and LOTS of early cottages.

Monasteries, though, do indeed get built fairly early in the three cultural cities. They are optional in the others.

Kelvenor
Sep 08, 2006, 10:38 AM
Many Thanks Godonut!!!

Sorry about the GS question read your original post a while back.

I've used your strategy on lower setting (emperor and Immortal) and it work wonders (not pun intended :) ) I think i got used to a slow build phased and buying...Deity is much faster.

SsS
Sep 15, 2006, 09:15 AM
About what year do you take your culture and science sliders to 0 so you can max gold income?

Thanks,

godotnut
Sep 15, 2006, 02:03 PM
SsS:

I don't make the cut-off point based upon year, but rather upon when I finish teching to Printing Press (usually, sometimes even earlier--like right after liberalism).

jesusin
Sep 25, 2006, 08:29 AM
Two tricks about generating Great People.

Hi Godotnut, I thought about opening new threads for these tricks, since I haven’t found anything about them in the forums, but they seem to fit a cultural victory and I think they will get more visibility here ;-). If you don’t agree just tell me so and I will remove them from your thread.

Trick1: Starvation
Say you really would like to get an additional GP from your GPfarm. The game is about to end. You assign 1 more specialist, running at –2 fpt until the food box is empty, but it is not enough. What do you do then? Reassign the citizen to the fields? Leave it as a specialist and let him starve?
You know, if you have no food in the box and –1fpt you’ll lose 1 pop by the next turn. Most interestingly, if you have no food in the box and –1000fpt you’ll lose 1 pop by the next turn. Just the same. So, what you do is assign each and every citizen to specialist. By the next turn, you will have lost 1 pop, but you will have shaved off a couple of turns towards the next GP generation.

Trick2: Mix and get a 100% probability (unverified)
Say you are not running Caste System. You want lots of Great Artist and you have a theater, so you have patiently used 2 artist specialists for some time. The GP is about to be born the very next turn and it has a 100% probability of being an artist. Now, if you let it be that way, you will start from scratch the next GP. You wish a theater permitted more than 2 artist specialists, don’t you?
Now, let’s assume that the game uses the probability you see the previous turn, not the probability calculated after all contributors in the last turn have been computed (unverified!). Then, what you do is to put 2 scientists in the library slot and one priest in the temple slot, in addition to the two artists. An artist is born the next turn. In addition, you have a large overflow of GPP. And no matter who contributed to this overflow, the overflow doesn’t favor any type of GP. So the turn the GP is born you reassign the people so that only the 2 artists are left as specialists. The net effect is that, for one simple turn, you had 5 artist slots instead of 2.
Please, use at your own risk. It has worked for me 3 times out of 3, but it might happen that the last turn contributions are taken into account and another type of GP be born. If that happened, then it is not a neat trick but a stupid last minute pool pollution. I would be very thankful if everybody reported their experience with this trick (or if anyone just looked into the code).

Edited: It doesn't work, see 3 posts below.

godotnut
Sep 25, 2006, 01:32 PM
@jesusin:

Thanks for the post.

Trick number one I use all the time, and I recommend it highly.

Trick number two I have never thought of and sounds like a clever way to boost GP points when not in Caste Sytem.

And congrats on your recent success in Deity at quick speed. In case anyone reading this hasn't noticed, Jesusin just posted two very impressive victories at Quick speeed to the HOF boards (he was too modest to mention it here). Go to the HOF forum and check out his posts! His strategy is significantly different than the one described here.

Xin Yu
Sep 29, 2006, 02:25 PM
With a stone resource within reach, in Warlords, quick speed, the strategy can be modified like this (untested!):

Playing a philosophical leader and build the Great Wall first. This wonder only needs 250 hammers at normal speed, so probably 167 hammers under quick. you'll be able to build it fast. The wonder gives you a great engineer after several turns, which can be used for the Pyramid. If the two wonders are built in the same city, then another GE will emerge in several turns for another wonder.

With a wonder put in place that early, it's not much loss against using the GP for a culture bomb in terms of total culture generated. However it has a huge benefit against building the Pyramid directly -- it frees up several turns of production in the city.

jesusin
Oct 03, 2006, 09:27 AM
Hi. According to @VoiceOfUnreason research, my second trick doesn't work.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4594209&postcount=32

Woobi
Oct 28, 2006, 02:33 PM
I just want to say that I ahve been using this strategy without fail...

Granted on a much lower difficulty level, Monarch...

But still, I see great potential in the way it is done...

Just a few questions, my cities have not been getting that 900 CPT that you say is possible, rather more like 600...

How do you get that extra 300 per turn???

My culture cities generally have all the temples, monestaries, a library, theatre, four or five 50% buildings, and that's about it...

I ususually run with two artists specialists in each, should I be running more???

Thanks for the awnsers and help, but great guide, easy to follow, and got me my first monarch win on Warlods...

(Also, if anyone can tell me if a score 9606 on a small map in 1878, epic speed, monarch difficulty is decent, I would apreaciate it)

godotnut
Oct 28, 2006, 04:44 PM
@Woobi:

I would have to see the cities, but my guess is that it's related to your cottages. A city producing 900/turn will have many fully grown cattages--between 8 and 11 typically. Also, that is running at 90-100% culture.

HardCoder
Nov 13, 2006, 06:58 PM
@MazX
Sometimes it takes until relatively late in the game, but if you are patient and don't panic, you will almost always get at least three religions by the time of your "temple spam" stage. I receive four religions on average.

Never tried it on Noble, but I'm almost positive you'll have the same results. Good luck!
I just lost one of these on Monarch. It was all perfect except that I never got a third religion, and Asoka finished his ship a few turns before I would have got all three cities to 75k. I was also landlocked (no real option there).

In hindsight several things would have fixed this. 1) For some reason I finished Scientific Method. I did eventually get a 3rd religion in one city (exported from across the ocean) and it was probably in time if I'd have been able to build monastaries.

2) I didn't pay enough attention to farming GAs. I could have had another one ready, probably, which would have won me the game, because I did have one art bomb ready and waiting. But I had two cities in need of art bombs.

3) Find a way to found a city on the other continent and bring the missing religion back. I think next time if I'm landlocked and have only two religions I'll see if I can manage to get a galleon over there, found a city, get a religion or two, build a missionary, get the missionary back, and then give the city away (or both cities, the one over there and the little one that built the galleon too). That's the plan anyway.

Isabella was on the other continent but I managed to keep her happy. In fact she was one of my best friends by the end of the game. Funny, you'd think I was trying to make that happen. Qin Shi, who my culture was pushing into the ocean and mountains, invaded for about 15 turns, but with only 3-4 units and never worse than annoyed, and eventually he offered me 20 gold to make peace. I had no units to defend with but I did have enough cash to promote some ancient units to longbows and maces, and then plenty of production afterwards, so the minor invasion was just that, minor.

I flipped a couple of size 10 cities by starving them to a more digestible 5-6. More would have flipped in 20-30 turns. The "cultural gale" phenomenon is pretty cool to watch. One of the flipped cities was a captured barb city that had been art bombed early in the game by Asoka. I figured I'd get it sooner or later.

I wound up with 9+ cities so I was able to build 2 special religious buildings in each city. I got 450-500 a turn. I needed 3 buildings, minimum.

I think it's funny how you can have a -3 or -4 for border tensions before a city flips ... then afterward it's back to -1. Guess the AI figures "oh well, nevermind."

I've had a devil of a time finding good starting maps since though ... my computer won't let me have stone right now.

PS - Thanks for your well written guide on this topic. I have found Civ IV surprisingly hard. I spent, I dunno, a couple thousand hours (? the equivalent of a year+ of full time work ?) on Civ I and II and pretty much pwned both games. I never found Civ III particularly challenging or interesting. IV is a whole new ballgame, particularly the much much better AI. Frustrating but satisfying.

Conquistador 63
Nov 16, 2006, 05:23 AM
jesusin:

Not a lot of time, but here's a start:

I don't know exactly how many hammers I buy, but it's a lot. I may have built one or two major religious buildings before the buying phase, but I buy all but the last two or three major religious buildings. That's typically around 9-12 purchased buildings.

Yes, I also buy most of my temples. Also the Hermitage.

3 gold / hammer may sound like a lot, but with both bars at zero, I'm usually pulling in around 260-360 gold / turn. So that's approximately 110 extra hammers / turn to focus on my three cities -- not too shabby. Then add in the stone, marble, or copper bonus (when you got 'em) and you're talking a much better exchange rate. Buying banks and markets early really pays off too.

Great article, even better discussion. I read it while trying my 1st cultural win playing GOTM12 (with the HoF mod).

I may have misunderstood the quote above, and thought that if you had the bonus resource, you would pay less cash while buying cathedrals. But definitely, that was not the case. I would still pay 3 gold/hammer.

Lehm
Dec 18, 2006, 03:02 PM
Hey, what am I doing wrong? I didn´t manage it to survive, because every time sombody was attacking me. First it was Cathrine, than Churchill. Actually I did well, and already had successfully achieved 2 cultural overtakes of close cities by the year 670 BC, but somehow I couldn´t prevent the attack. I gave all techs and recources and had a positive relation towards them. In my first games I had at about +3 or +4 overall to catherine but it didn´t hold her back. How can I achieve more. I can´t give money, because I don´t have the tech. I already had the same religion. The only thing that was making her a little mad is the close borders.

HardCoder
Dec 18, 2006, 06:51 PM
Hey, what am I doing wrong? I didnīt manage it to survive, because every time sombody was attacking me. First it was Cathrine, than Churchill. Actually I did well, and already had successfully achieved 2 cultural overtakes of close cities by the year 670 BC, but somehow I couldnīt prevent the attack. I gave all techs and recources and had a positive relation towards them. In my first games I had at about +3 or +4 overall to catherine but it didnīt hold her back. How can I achieve more. I canīt give money, because I donīt have the tech. I already had the same religion. The only thing that was making her a little mad is the close borders.
Some AIs will attack you just because. If you're on the same planet as Napoleon you might as well start over if you want peace, because he will attack you when he's friendly. (I think.) Alex and Monty will also attack for no reason, but neither of them is likely to give you a really hard time if you have any defenses at all.

With the peacemongering or at least fairly mellow AIs, if you get your relations into the +10 or +15 range, then you'll generally be left alone. But you have to make sure that your friends stay friends with each other, otherwise you won't be able to trade without the -4 trading with enemies penalty (and that's if they stay at peace with one another). It can be helpful if you can get one of your friends to stay at war with a distant civilization that is unlikely to invade you; you may want to go ahead and declare war along with your friendly civ, expecting that you won't actually be involved in combat. That and "giving help" will get you large bonuses.

The more you spread your religion(s) around to your friends, the more they like you as long as they have the same religion as you. The bonuses go up to at least +7. If two civs that you want to be friendly with have different religions, you can spread your religion into their territory and once you have pleased relations, persuade them to convert to yours. Note that if the religion isn't spread well, or if the AI has a holy city (= money), then the AI is likely to convert back to its own religion. (Maybe I should look at the code a bit to see how this works.)

Whether you can have a peaceful cultural victory depends mostly, though, on whether you have enough religions on your continent (with two it will be very very hard; with one I assume it's essentially impossible) and whether you have any insane neighbors. If you're parked between Shaka and Monty, just start over.

Lehm
Dec 19, 2006, 11:24 AM
Okay, thank you so far. I was playing on a small map and already chosing out my neighbours. With Catherine, Saladin, Asoka and Hatshepsut I thought I already had some peacelovers. Most time I play as Ghandi, but I can´t imagine that this is a special problem to any of my opponents. But what more to say... I will keep trying. Maybe I will build up at least a short defense next time. Thank you once more for the quick reply... saludos:rolleyes:

spretten
Dec 23, 2006, 11:58 PM
hi
cool guide.but it couple of things thats not right.first of all the barbarians pop up evry where(evry time i play allmost).i got like 5-6 archers headed to to town and 5-6 warriors headed for town.i also tried out a little different strategy but it collapse: i first resarched masonery-mysticism-bronse working.and then i build in numer 1 city:walls(protection for barbs,i also buildt the city right top of the stone so i dont have to improve it so it twice the speed:) then i let the city grow while build a warrior while the city reaches 4 in pop total after stonehenge is build(2000bc) - then i build worker right after bronseworking.but trying to send it out first was a faillure since warriors and archer popped up evry where i must have killed at least 8 of thats why i'm glad i build the walls:).then i started the pyramids and the worker chopped down the forest.when the pyramids was finished(1100bc) i built one settler then a another one letting the one worker chopp forest.then i got 2 cities more and started to build worker in the one city and walls the second one but then huyana caypace decleared war on me by sending to axemen..since he was the only around the game was a dissater.but i allways think it will be great if you managed to build pyramids in one city and stonehenge in another instead of both in one since the profhet pops up instead of great ing and destroys hurry wonder.but you could just use the profhet to join one of the other city you have(get 2 shield + 5 gold bonus) if you lucky you get enginer next(since the statics where 50-50 to get either profhet ore ing.also since the great people generated 8-10 so it's not to far to the next 150/300 required for great people.but it's very difficult to get both stonehenge and pyramids allmost impossible..but if you do that the boarder boost big time creating places for more settlers and since you allready have high population in the main city the settlers get build fast...

Almond
Aug 30, 2007, 04:17 PM
Well my first attempt at this strategy failed miserably; I wasn't attacked but one of my culture cities was flipped late in the game and I lost to a space race victory in the late 1500s. Can someone provide the link to the cottage economy strategy that is referenced in this article?

IronCrown
Apr 30, 2008, 01:38 PM
Is this strategy still valid in BtS? I'm looking for new strats to try, but much has changed with BtS, so I'd like to get some reports before I waste my time on a strategy that's now impossible to implement successfully ;)

Soporiferous
Jul 19, 2008, 07:12 PM
I don't rely on pyramids since I never seem to have stone anyway. I also avoid great library if planning on a cultural victory, as I dislike the Scientist pollution it causes. I'll spawn 2-4 scientists from regular specialists and use them for either academies or to burn on Philosophy/Education. All other GP production goes to artists, a few GE points from a Forge are also good if the possible engineer arrives in time to pop Taj Mahal or Statue of Liberty.


I was wondering about the effectiveness of rushing pyramids as well. I have to admit, I never went for a cultural victory yet, so I apologize for any noobie comments here, but even with a quickly available stone resource, producing an early Pyramids is a pain and will slow down your development significantly (most significantly: later settlers, so worse spots for your next cities).

Following godonut's (excellent and inspiring!) guide, I instantly won on Emperor, but only in 1924 and with a lot of clumsy mistakes. On immortal, I needed two tries and won in 1854. I haven't tried on Deity yet, but here are some questions and observations from my games on easier difficulties:

1. The Pyramids take a long time to build, slowing down progress, limiting space to develop and diluting your GP pool (one engineer is ok, but I got 3 in total in one game!). Any suggestions for a viable alternative?

2. Founding an early religion is too risky (you will be beaten by 1 or 2 turns in most cases, which upsets early teching) and the late ones can only be researched fast enough by using Great People. Maybe it's because I pre-select my opponents...Frederick seems to love beelining to Philosophy, Saladin always founds Islam etc. My concern is not with the spread of enough religions (i play large map, pangaea, always works fine), but the bonus of the special building in the holy city would be nice. Even if I could found confucianism for example, is it worth going for the Great Prophet to capitalize on it?

3. City specialists are great, but I'm never sure when is the right time to turn some of my population into artists. I figured letting your three major cities grow until no great tiles (foodwise) are left and then use food overflow to generate special people is an ok plan, but in practice, this means I have to wait till way after 1000 AD before I can get those artists working. Any suggestions on better specialist management?

4. Researching bronze working and masonry is a necessary evil to pop out an early wonder like the Pyramids, but it probably means you will be beaten to CoL, Philosphy or any other later tech you so badly want to have first. I have seen the suggestion of beelining straight to writing and then either pick alphabet or CoL. Does this actually work well at Deity level? Also, these techs the AI doesn;t research herself...I have troubles finding many...again, maybe I have to blame my choice of opponents, but other than literature, compass, optics and paper, I can think of few techs the AI does not prioritize in research.

5. I usually give away techs after I'm done researching liberalism (which I can never research first on emperor and higher :sad:), nationalism and printing press, for a few hundred gold cash so I can hurry more buildings in the temple spam phase. Unless there are clearly backwards AIs, is this advisable or will it significantly help the AI to win a space game victory?

I hope you can help me with these questions. And again, thanks for the great guide and the interesting discussion thread.

update: first try on deity lost in disgrace; while York was a mere 3 tiles away from judaist Basra since 2500 BC, judaism failed to spread and so did all but 2 other religions. No wonder I only came close to three 30,000 culture cities when I was beaten by Mansa Mura's space ship launch somewhere around 1740 (early!). As for the Pyramids, I didn't even try, even though I connected to stone with my second city..maybe I should have, but I doubt it would have made a change in this game. Anyway, I could only build 4 cities and squeeze in a clumsy 5th. If I had produced a wonder instead of pumping settlers things would have been even worse. Maybe continents is an idea to better safeguard early development...any ideas?

update 2: I got squeezed really badly with Elizabeth, so I could not get more than 4 cities before getting completely boxed in, certainly when I followed the Pyramids scenario. So I tried Catherine, who combines the crucial financial trait with creative, allowing my early cities to open up space to squeeze in my 4th and 5th city, followed by a 6th I usually get my cultural flipping of an enemy city. Everything worked fine, yet I missed the philosophical trait and my special artists just didn't deliver enough Great Artists. In 1726 Frederick built the Spaceship while my three top cities were all around 30,000 culture. Deity sure is a LOT harder than Immortal or Emperor! Would shifting game speed give me an advantage (because it slows down a scientific win)? Looking forward to your responses.

stauntonel
Jul 26, 2008, 02:19 PM
I have had a few cultural victories by now. Thanks for the very usefull tips!
There is a few questions i cannot solve:

1. When switching to 100% culture, how to get a acceptable techning rate? In some games it works great, in others i need hunderds of turns for one tech.

Civics i like to choose in the culture fase:
- representation
- free speech
- caste system
- mercantilism / state property
- Pacifism

Cultural cities: almost cultural builings only and wonders to improve GA birthrate

Last game i did switch to 100% culture a few turns after liberalism.

The only trick i can think of to put the hammers of the non cultural cities in to science


2. Do i go from 0% culture to 100% in one turn or use a few turns to get there?

jesusin
Jul 27, 2008, 05:07 AM
I have had a few cultural victories by now. Thanks for the very usefull tips!
There is a few questions i cannot solve:

1. When switching to 100% culture, how to get a acceptable techning rate? In some games it works great, in others i need hunderds of turns for one tech.

Civics i like to choose in the culture fase:
- representation
- free speech
- caste system
- mercantilism / state property
- Pacifism

Cultural cities: almost cultural builings only and wonders to improve GA birthrate

Last game i did switch to 100% culture a few turns after liberalism.

The only trick i can think of to put the hammers of the non cultural cities in to science


2. Do i go from 0% culture to 100% in one turn or use a few turns to get there?

I think godotnut is not around yet, so I'll try my best to answer your questions.

IMO you are doing a very good job.

You go from 100% research to 100% culture in one turn, the moment you've got all Liberalism, Natio, Drama and Music.

You don't worry about research anymore. There isn't anything you really need to research to win the game now. If you have the Pyramids, then you are running Representation and you can get some more echs slowly. If not, you will maybe get 1 more tech at the end of the game out of the 1 beakers the hired artists produce.

I use the late hammers in non-Legendary cities to built troops if I need defenses or to build gold in order to sustain the culture slider at 100%.

Your civic selection is perfect. In some games you prefer FreeMArket better than Mercantilism. I think StateProp is not an option since you never research so far.

Good luck, although you don't seem to need it!

R Gould
Jul 28, 2008, 05:50 PM
I don't know if this thread is still active. I just started playing Civ4, after years of having the box tempt me in stores I finally broke down and bought it.

So, I am trying godotnut's strategy for cultural victory at the NOBLE level.

I have won a couple of victories, I am just trying to do it FASTER. I have never been able to win before 1948.

Big question, that I do not see addressed here: what do you DO with your cities while you are researching toward liberalism? Do you have them build units, or convert their production toward Research / Wealth?

It seems that no matter how I try to appease my neighbors and start with peaceful ones I will ALWAYS be invaded if I keep a weak army. So I find I have to constantly build my army while researching toward Liberalism, only to discourage invasion. Is this the correct strategy? Is there a better way to discourage invasion that I am missing out on?

harusame
Jul 28, 2008, 06:16 PM
after you get liberalism, Printing Press, and Nationalism, you STOP TECHING
run BOTH tech and culture slider at 0% for several turns to accumulate money, then run democracy to spam unit/building (mostly temples, banks, and missionaries)

after you are done, run cultural slider at 80-90% and wait


this strategy is effective even at deity however, there are several points you must concern,
1. Building the Great Library can be a a double edge sword, because it generates GAP instead of GAP, and you cant stop them to generate GSP
if you produce too many GS, later it will costs more to produce Great Person
2. there is another option without pyramid, mainly through the religion path. Founding religion is doable in deity by lightbulbing with Great prophet.

jesusin
Jul 29, 2008, 12:16 AM
Welcome to Civfanatics, R Gould! :band:


Big question, that I do not see addressed here: what do you DO with your cities while you are researching toward liberalism? Do you have them build units, or convert their production toward Research / Wealth?


You usually build units, missionaries to spread your religions to all your cities, temples to be able to built cathedrals.

Gifts and trades will make your rivals Pleased, and peaceful opponents that are pleased never attack.

If you want to finish faster, not only to win, you might be interested in reading some of the HOF threads http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=166

jesusin
Jul 29, 2008, 01:14 AM
1. The Pyramids take a long time to build, slowing down progress, limiting space to develop and diluting your GP pool (one engineer is ok, but I got 3 in total in one game!). Any suggestions for a viable alternative?


Yes, there are. You can make a 2 phase game. Not building the pyramids, teching to Liberalism, then going 100% culture immediately. You can't rushbuy your cathedrals, so you just build them with mines or whip them. Since you will be in need of hammers, you can play for 6 cities, building cathedrals only in 2 cities, having your GPFarm go Legendary with some 10 GA bombs.

You can read more about this type of games in several old threads in the HOF page above, particularly one started by bostich and (is it bad style recommending oneself?:blush:) a couple started by jesusin.


2. Founding an early religion is too risky (you will be beaten by 1 or 2 turns in most cases, which upsets early teching) and the late ones can only be researched fast enough by using Great People. Maybe it's because I pre-select my opponents...Frederick seems to love beelining to Philosophy, Saladin always founds Islam etc. My concern is not with the spread of enough religions (i play large map, pangaea, always works fine), but the bonus of the special building in the holy city would be nice. Even if I could found confucianism for example, is it worth going for the Great Prophet to capitalize on it?

There is not a consensus on this one. The shrine will help tech faster and be at 100% culture instead of 90% culture. It also adds a bit of culture. But it pollutes your GPpool, making it more likely to pop yet another GProphet, and losing a GArtist is a big drawback.


3. City specialists are great, but I'm never sure when is the right time to turn some of my population into artists. I figured letting your three major cities grow until no great tiles (foodwise) are left and then use food overflow to generate special people is an ok plan, but in practice, this means I have to wait till way after 1000 AD before I can get those artists working. Any suggestions on better specialist management?


You need to have a specialized city, called GPFarm. The only goal of this city is to pop a dozen of GArtists. It will build granary, library, NE, maybe an aqueduct and absolutely nothing else. All his grass tiles will be farmed and it will run as many artist as possible from as soon as possible.

The auxiliary cities (the ones not becoming legendary) can help popping the odd GA in the 100% culture phase.


4. Researching bronze working and masonry is a necessary evil to pop out an early wonder like the Pyramids, but it probably means you will be beaten to CoL, Philosphy or any other later tech you so badly want to have first. I have seen the suggestion of beelining straight to writing and then either pick alphabet or CoL. Does this actually work well at Deity level? Also, these techs the AI doesn;t research herself...I have troubles finding many...again, maybe I have to blame my choice of opponents, but other than literature, compass, optics and paper, I can think of few techs the AI does not prioritize in research.

Yes, that works. Beelining Alphabet is usually a good idea.


5. I usually give away techs after I'm done researching liberalism (which I can never research first on emperor and higher :sad:), nationalism and printing press, for a few hundred gold cash so I can hurry more buildings in the temple spam phase. Unless there are clearly backwards AIs, is this advisable or will it significantly help the AI to win a space game victory?

It is ok.

Now, you have to improve on the Liberalism race. Try beelining to Liberalism, forget researching things like compass. Also your first GP should be a GSci for an early Academy in your full of cottages capital.

supposedly
Aug 01, 2008, 05:13 PM
Hello,


This is my first post in this forum. I have been reading it for several weeks and I really like it. I have to say that all of the posts in this thread have been incredibly helpful and I thank everyone for sharing their experiences and tips.

I am attempting the cultural win as described by the OP. I achieved a satisfying victory on Monarch the first time, and jumped straight to deity.

Settings:

BTS 3.1.3.1
Elizabeth
Continents
Standard
Temperate
Low sea sevel
Normal speed
Standard Resources
Opponents: Asoka, Catherine, Cyrus, Hathesheput, Mansa, Frederick, Louis


Strategy:

First I tried using the pyramids strategy originally described. I was often able to complete the pyramids, but it took forever; by the time I would get my settlers going, all the land would be taken.

Then I used the strategy described by jesusin, forgoing the pyramids and beelining to Alphabet. I get many techs for alphabet, but in the mean time, my workers sit on their hands with nothing to do. So next time I made warriors instead, but by the time I was ready to start making workers and settlers, most of the land was settled again. Also, the AI took writing/alphabet and ran with it, beating me to everything beyond, building all the key wonders before I even had a chance to research the tech.

Then I tried to build 6 cities as fast as possible, but it is SUCH a drag on the economy and I end up with no money and no research.

So next I tried cottaging the capital first, and then making cities, but the AI and barbarians drop cities everywhere before I can get my settlers pumped out. It also means I can't rush to alphabet because I need wheel and pottery.

I read that the AI doesn't prioritize literature, but it seems they are always building the great library before I can even get to the tech! Has this been patched? I realize that my technique is still pretty shoddy and I still have lots to learn. But I am wondering if these strategies work on BTS, or do they just apply to plain vanilla Civ IV? I would hate to be wasting all of this time if it doesn't work in BTS ;-)

What is the best game speed to use? I have tried using epic and normal. On epic, I get creamed militarily, and on normal, they always seem to out tech me.

Also jesusin, is there a specific thread on that page to read? A 40 second search makes it hard to sift through everything ;-) Some of

jesusin
Aug 04, 2008, 01:35 AM
Welcome to Civfanatics, supposedly! You will find this is a friendly community, I have learnt so much here!
Is your post complete? It looks like an abrupt ending to me.


This extraordinary guide was written for Vanilla. I suppose a good part of it is useful in BTS too.
Please note that godotnut partly changed his mind later on and he wasn't recommending building the GLib (too many GS points leading to less GArtists).


Reading about your difficulties I would say that you have yet to master the initial part of the game. Your problems are not related to the cultural VC but would happen in every game. But you are not losing your time at all! You are following the best path I know to learning more: trying the same settings, once and again, with different strategies. That's how you learn what works and what doesn't, the price you have to pay for an early WW, and so on...

When beelining Alpha from the beggining, there are a number of ways to get there, so your Workers should never be idle. Also, adding the Wheel to the beeline and going to Writing through Pottery is a very sound strategy, and allows the non-stop building of cottages.

When expanding, I try go get to 4 cities by 1000BC and 6 cities by 1AD. A bit faster is possible, but your economy suffers.

Take care with Louis and Cathy, they look a bit treacherous.

Speeds: For every VC Marathon is the easiest. Except for Culture, where the best speeed is either Marathon or Quick (because only 25K :culture: are needed instead of the "fair" 33K :culture: )
But don't let that change your habits, play the speed that you enjoy the most.


Come on! Don't be lazy! 40seconds times 2 == 80 seconds...
The first 2 links are the most interesting IMO. Please pay attention to any remark by WastinTime.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232250
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185818
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=198399
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=267358
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193460
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204150
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187986


Good luck! And don't forget to try BTS Gandhi too, it took me some time to learn (part of) the uses of Spiritual.



Disclaimer: I hope I am not hijacking this thread. If anyone has different ideas, by any means, express them here. Or additional links, or anything. I am not in possesion of truth and this is not my thread!

supposedly
Aug 14, 2008, 05:40 PM
Welcome to Civfanatics, supposedly! You will find this is a friendly community, I have learnt so much here!
Is your post complete? It looks like an abrupt ending to me.


Yes it is cut off, but I have totally forgotten what I wanted to say ;-)


This extraordinary guide was written for Vanilla. I suppose a good part of it is useful in BTS too.


I figured as much. One thing I have noticed is that I can never seem to beat the AI to Alphabet. Aesthetics, however, they seem to ignore, and I can trade it away for lots of goodies. I will keep playing on BTS because I like the new opponents.


Reading about your difficulties I would say that you have yet to master the initial part of the game. Your problems are not related to the cultural VC but would happen in every game. But you are not losing your time at all! You are following the best path I know to learning more: trying the same settings, once and again, with different strategies. That's how you learn what works and what doesn't, the price you have to pay for an early WW, and so on...


I stopped playing with barbarians. It is just too frustrating. Nothing sucks more than a stack of six barbarian axemen popping out of nowhere and ruining your game. I also reduced the number of AI on the map by one.

These two changes significantly altered the game. Before, I could never get the cities up in time, but now I seem to have plenty of time and space. With barbarians turned off, I can explore at will, and search for optimal settler placement.


When expanding, I try go get to 4 cities by 1000BC and 6 cities by 1AD. A bit faster is possible, but your economy suffers.


My research bar is usually at 20% by 1AD. I never beat the AI to anything except Aesthetics. They just always get to Alphabet faster than me, and never trade anything. So I started trading aesthetics away, and the AI seems to trade the house for it, but I will never discover music first and get the free GA.


Take care with Louis and Cathy, they look a bit treacherous.


Now I play with Asoka, Frederick, Cyrus, Hathsheput, Sitting Bull, and Ghandi.
Louis just builds too many wonders and Catherine stirs up trouble.


Come on! Don't be lazy! 40seconds times 2 == 80 seconds...
The first 2 links are the most interesting IMO. Please pay attention to any remark by WastinTime.

I discovered the Google Search option which is way faster ;)



Disclaimer: I hope I am not hijacking this thread. If anyone has different ideas, by any means, express them here. Or additional links, or anything. I am not in possesion of truth in this is not my thread!

Thank you for all of your help, and also to everyone else who posted in this thread. I haven't beaten deity yet, but I have gotten pretty close (AI diplomatic victory at last minute). I have learned a lot so far!

da dick
Aug 16, 2008, 07:21 PM
mansa musa using cottage spam and religious buildings seem to work best for me, but is there any way to win the game at 1600s WITHOUT USING RELIGION?

will building stuff which increase gold output, work just as well with cottage spam?

Mesix
Aug 17, 2008, 11:06 PM
mansa musa using cottage spam and religious buildings seem to work best for me, but is there any way to win the game at 1600s WITHOUT USING RELIGION?

will building stuff which increase gold output, work just as well with cottage spam?

The thing you have to realize about cottages is that they do not produce :gold: they produce :commerce:. Understanding the difference makes a world of difference. If you already know then ignore my beginner advice.

:commerce: is commerce and can become :gold:, :science:,

Mesix
Aug 17, 2008, 11:18 PM
mansa musa using cottage spam and religious buildings seem to work best for me, but is there any way to win the game at 1600s WITHOUT USING RELIGION?

will building stuff which increase gold output, work just as well with cottage spam?

The thing you have to realize about cottages is that they do not produce :gold: they produce :commerce:. Understanding the difference makes a world of difference. If you already know, then ignore my beginner advice.

:commerce: is commerce and can become :gold:, :science:, :culture:, or :espionage: depending on what your slider is set to. At the beginning of the game, only the :science: slider is available so commerce can become :gold: or :science:. If you are running the :science: slider at 100% then your cottages will not prodece any :gold: at all. They will only produce :science:.

The :commerce: is the reason why you are likely to read a lot of posts about Financial trait leaders being powerful at research (and not necessarily at accumulating riches).

Buildings such as Marketplace, Grocer, and Bank only modify the :gold: that is being produced by a city and not the :commerce:. If you are running your slider very high, then these buildings are not going to modify the output of a developed cottage (or town) tile.

The best way to tech quickly is to build Libraries in the cities that are working cottages and commerce resources. Later add Universities and Observatories to them as well. If you are running a Cottage Economy, you want to run your :science: slider as high as possible. without losing gold. Once you have Libraries, running Scientists GP in your cities will also keep your research going.

I generally only build Marketplaces and Banks in cities that have a Holy Shrine or something else that produces :gold:. Even on a huge map, I only have about 3-4 cities that build them until after Corporation is researched and I need 8 to build Wall Street.

da dick
Aug 19, 2008, 01:54 PM
thanks. i thought gold and commerce was the same yellow thing. guess it would be much tougher to build up culture without the cheap culture multiplying catherals(sp?)

is using great people just to create golden ages, a better idea than hoarding great artistes for the endgame?
---

and i usually play with "random personalities" to keep thing unpredictable. it's nice to interact with a monty who isn't trying to fight everyone. but a gandhi AI with a warmonger's personality is quite fearsome.

supposedly
Aug 23, 2008, 04:38 AM
Well tonight I finally completed my first cultural victory on BTS deity. I narrowly won by one turn in 1720. Lincoln had already launched the spaceship but was too slow, and Pericles was just one step behind me in reaching his 3rd legendary city.

I was lucky and built the pyramids, but I had a pathetic GP farm, so I guess it evens out.

My biggest mistake in prior games was trading away aesthetics literature or drama too soon. The AI wants those badly, but it never researches them, so I think it's better to take it straight to music and get the free artist. I chose to lightbulb drama with him, but it may have been better to save it for later.

If you have built the pyramids, use the engineer on sistine chapel and only then trade away those techs. Otherwise, try to get a jump start on the sistine before you trade music, or drama/lit. If you have to use hammers for the sistine chapel: keeping an eye on who has spawned Great Engineers is helpful, because that's the AI you don't want to trade drama or literature to. The AI can and will research music and use the engineer on it all before you can complete the sistine chapel.

I gave up on trying to reach liberalism first, it just seems impossible unless you have a ton of early luxury resources mined and ready to go. I was never really good at trading extra resources like clams and rice for cash, because you can't ever get more than like 4 gold in the early game. After the point the AI gave me decent money (8-13g), i had already turned tech off and was culturing.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's help on this thread! It has been quite a learning experience.

Genv [FP]
Aug 27, 2008, 10:16 AM
Guys..This is harder on BTS.. The AI is smarter

oyzar
Aug 28, 2008, 02:42 AM
How smart the AI are doesn't matter if you don't plan to interact in it in any way but trading! BTS have sistine and corps that makes it very good for cultural victory. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=278350 here and http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232250 here are two nice threads on cultural victory imo... The first might be better on how to do it and the second one better for what to do to do it faster. Marathon quecha exploit with big and small getting sushi asap is probably the fastest way to win as shown by killercane.

Antonionius
Aug 28, 2008, 01:43 PM
I never build any barracks or any troops other than one warrior per city. I don't hook up with copper until I've built six warriors, so that the option is present to build warriors and not the more expensive axemen or spearmen. If diplomacy fails and someone invades (rarely happens), retire, rinse, and repeat.

Does anybody know a good thread, or has advice on diplomacy. One warrior per city sounds like breakfast for those pesky AI warmongerers

da dick
Sep 03, 2008, 07:36 AM
i don't think anyone would fault you for tweaking the custom settings so there won't be barbarians and aggressive leaders in your game.

Antonionius
Sep 04, 2008, 01:06 AM
Cheers, yeah I did that. From the threads I've been reading, it seems to be the only way. I've been playing BTS and usually go for Mansa, Gandhi, Pericles and Lincoln. Pascal as well sometimes, but seems to get well peeved if you're not the same religion in my experience.

I haven't braved above Noble level yet. I got a 1780 win on BTS (Liz/small/quick). I tried on vanilla (Liz/small/quick) with inland sea (recommended on the forum) Noble again and got a victory in 1575, so I guess a BTS cultural victory is quite a lot harder

godotnut
Oct 26, 2008, 05:55 PM
I wanted to take a moment to thank Jesusin for maintaining this thread while I was away. I'm sure he's the better expert on cultural victories anyway, especially since I haven't played more than a game or two in years, and have only played BOTS twice. So culture mongers are probably best served looking for his posts in the GOTM threads, rather than asking me. I will be happy to try to respond, however, if you want some old school advice from godotnut.

stauntonel
Nov 08, 2008, 01:22 PM
You go from 100% research to 100% culture in one turn, the moment you've got all Liberalism, Natio, Drama and Music.

You don't worry about research anymore. There isn't anything you really need to research to win the game now.
Maybe wait until you get Printing Press?


Good luck, although you don't seem to need it!

Thanks, it's not luck i need but tech skills so i can play on higher levels.
My record untill now is 1465 AD this was on noble.
I get the feeling i have to move up in difficulty level, because it takes ages before AI have some interesting techs to trade. Deity is still along way to go, but who knows one day i will get there.

jesusin
Nov 08, 2008, 01:37 PM
Maybe wait until you get Printing Press?


PP is sometimes a good idea. Sometimes it is better not to research it. It depends on the number of cottages you are running and the number of cathedrals. Just do the maths, if you have an idea how many turns remain till the end, it is easy.

In Deity you can trade for it. Most of the times I don't research it.


Thanks, it's not luck i need but tech skills so i can play on higher levels.
My record untill now is 1465 AD this was on noble.
I get the feeling i have to move up in difficulty level, because it takes ages before AI have some interesting techs to trade. Deity is still along way to go, but who knows one day i will get there.
That's not a bad date. I think Deity is easier because of tech-trading.

Just dive in! My first game of Civ4 was on Deity. :rolleyes:

Snowbeavers
Dec 26, 2008, 11:47 PM
This is my first post here and have only been playing Civ IV (not BTS but normal one) for about 6 months.

I used to be a war monger but now really enjoying the peaceful cultural victory.

I just won a cultural victory on Monarch with Gandhi in 1963 and narrowly beating out a AI space victory. I want to try on deity but I don't think I have the skills yet.

I have a few problems and would appreciate your advice.

1. What produces more culture, a city with loads of farms to make a GP factory or a city with cottages?

2. Do you try and get any of the Great Wonders after liberalism or just quit teching? I read that some people try and go for Broadway and Rock and Roll but then wouldn't your cultural output suffer?

3. Should I try and get 9 cities so that I can get the extra religious buildings? I can only do this on large maps of course but my last victory I had 7 cities and won.

4. I have found it nearly impossible to have a peaceful cultural victory with the likes of Monte and Isabelle out there. Do you pick peaceful AI opponents?

Thanks for your help!

ShannonCT
Dec 27, 2008, 09:24 AM
1. Cottage cities will produce more culture than GP farms, especially your capital with Bureaucracy. Build your cathedrals in cottage cities first.

2. Taj is the only wonder you would try for with the standard strategy. The commerce you spend on researching Radio can be spent on culture instead.

3. Cathedrals in your 2 cottage cities works fine. The extra cost of 3 more cities can cause you to run the science and culture sliders lower than you want to.

4. Yes! Choose peaceful opponents.

Supr49er
Dec 27, 2008, 12:44 PM
Welcome to the Forums supposedly. :beer:

Snowbeavers
Dec 28, 2008, 07:16 PM
1. Cottage cities will produce more culture than GP farms, especially your capital with Bureaucracy. Build your cathedrals in cottage cities first.

2. Taj is the only wonder you would try for with the standard strategy. The commerce you spend on researching Radio can be spent on culture instead.

3. Cathedrals in your 2 cottage cities works fine. The extra cost of 3 more cities can cause you to run the science and culture sliders lower than you want to.

4. Yes! Choose peaceful opponents.

Great. Thanks for the tips! Will try them out

Supr49er
Dec 29, 2008, 02:07 PM
Welcome to the Forums Snowbeavers. :beer:

Alexfrog
Jan 15, 2009, 11:56 AM
I'm trying his out, several issues I am haivng:

1) Wow, you get techs slow at the beginning. I find I dont have time right away to get Masonry and hook up the stone, and I'm not really ready to build the pyramids any want to get way. I am trying it as Elizabeth, but starting with fishing sucks (on Pangea), it would be really nice to start with two of the techs I need (Agriculture, The Wheel, Mining).

I'm considering playing it as Mansa Musa. How critical is philosophical? Spiritual seems useful also, and getting the wheel to start means less research needed before hooking up the stone.


2) Barbarians are being a pain. Early archers. I am used to playing on small maps, and switching to normal for this is making the barbs much worse. The 1 warrior per city I am having isnt cutting it with these archers coming around shortly before 2000BC. How do you get away with just having warriors? Do I need to move them outside my city borders to fogbust (and then how do I deal with happiness). I have considered just turning them off, but it feels like cheating.


3) Its really difficult to find time to make the pyramids, while also expanding. What time do you target for the completion of the pyramids? I was finding that I have basically no chance for any other wonders, but Pyramids were being possible a bit later. They are so expsensive that the AI seems to go for them later, they get stonehenge/great wall/oracle really fast but not pyramids. (Playing with 5 opponents).


4) What time period do you hit Liberalism? I got it in the 600ADs on my first try on Immortal difficulty. At that point I had just started building temples, I can definitely see why going Universal suffrage, 100% gold and buying temples is a good idea.

stauntonel
Mar 24, 2009, 04:11 PM
At last. My first cultural victory at deity. If it wasnt for this thread i probably would never made it.
:cheers:

Jayhawks
Apr 27, 2009, 02:35 PM
So I've played Civ since #1 like most people on this website, and have never won a cultural victory on deity without cheating on #4, so I was fascinated by this thread. I'm having trouble winning though.

I'm playing with what appears to be vanilla (I didn't realize there was a difference), tech tree: writing>alphabet>mathmatics or literature. Elizabeth, normal speed, no barbarians, the rest organic settings. Why do u guys play marathon? Is there an advantage? I understand it for warmongering but not for peace.

I have no problem building the pyramids or getting my cities up or keeping the peace (I can actually get 9 cities if I want but it ruins my economy). My problem is being able to tech to things like liberalism, nationalism, philosophy, and printing press. I followed the guide and pretty much ignored the need for luxury resources, and only had wine (I'm thinking this is the problem). Health resources, wheat, corn, deer(after expansion), cow, and clam.

I found a map that I liked and saved it (stone, capital, city 2, cow, and corn on same river). I have since played it through 3 times and have lost everytime. I can't seem to get my culture cities above 10-11 and my marginals above 6-7. I'm not tarded, I know what I'm doing, but they just tech so damn fast that I'm only able to make trades with alphabet, theology to 1 or 2, paper, education, and liberalism to 1-3. I trade them right away after researching, is that my problem? If I wait I get less for them...

The closest I got was when I stopped teching after researching literature, drama, and music right after alphabet. I had my cities up to 17000/50000, gaining 300-400 per turn. The better I did the earlier they launched the ship. The last time was 1510!! They also keep voting for emancipation eliminating my GA factory around 1280-1350.

I'm getting the feeling that winning like this requires some very specific resources, an awesome capital, and also a lot of luck on trades and gifted techs. I think more luxuries would help because I do sacrifice population to build stuff (temples) early on instead of growing because of unhappiness. I know how to cottage spam, and micro-manage my cities. I'm thinking gold, gems or silver are necessary, and probably 2 of the three. Also fur, ivory, silk, whale, at least one of them.

How are you guys getting banking... I get nowhere near banking because I'm trading for things like mathmatics, literature, music, philosophy, civil service, CoL, currency.

I'm thinking tech trading off would actually be easier!!! Especially since turning off tech for gold so early on. I see people getting to corporation.... wtf....

jesusin
Apr 28, 2009, 01:12 AM
Welcome to Civfanatics, Jayhawks :band::beer::banana:


We call Vanilla the original version of the game "Civilizations 4". Be sure to play with the latest patch. You can also be interested in playing with the HOF MOD, it doesn't change gameplay at all but it makes information more easily accesible.

Then you can buy the game expansions, called "Warlords" and "Beyond the Sword" (or simply "BTS").



9 cities: Don't get all of them at the same time or maintenance will kill your economy. A quite standard expansion rate would be 4 cities at 1000BC, 6 cities at 1AD.


Happyness resources: They are all-important at the beginning of the game! You need your cities to grow to work more tiles, you don't want to be constrained by the happyness limit. It is true that, at the end of the game, you don't need them because you have raised the cultural slider. But don't neglect them in the beginning!


300-400cpt when your cultural slider is at 100% is too low. You are aiming at something like 800, 800 and 600 culture per turn in your 3 cities. You need to get more cultural multipliers: liberalism allows FS which adds +100% in all your cities and if you get there first you can choose Nationalism as your free tech, building the Hermitage which adds another +100% to one of your cities.


You are right that tech trading is the key to winning Deity games. They simply research too fast, so your only hope is to use their research capability in your favour. Try to learn which techs they are less likely to research and research those yourself, instead of the ones you really need. I think that with tech trading off it would be almost impossible to win a cultural Deity game.


As for your difficulties with research, it is hard to give a good advice without more information.

- Have you ever played a spaceship game to completion?

- You get an early Academy in your capital, don't you?

- You addopt Bureaucracy as soon as you can, don't you?

- You have your capital heavily cottaged, don't you?


Finally, and I am getting a bit personal here, why can't you win a Deity cultural game? Hmm, hard to tell, but...

- Why play on Deity? Deity is really hard. You don't need a wonderful map to be able to win on Deity, but there are some particular Deity maps that nobody is able to win. It could be a good idea to first win a Cultural Emperor game, then win a Cultural Emperor game before 1600AD, then try for Deity.

- You seem to need to improve your research capabilities. Why don't you try to play a random Emperor game. Don't complete it, just play till 1AD, your goal is to be doing 200 or 250bpt at 1AD.

- Reading about other people games can throw some light into a big defect in your gameplay you didn't now you had. Why don't you try participating in HOF gauntlets or in GOTM games?

- You might be interested in reading about other ways (without Pyramids) of winning a Deity cultural game. This thread here might be of interest :blush:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298093



I hope this helps, good luck.

Jayhawks
May 01, 2009, 03:33 AM
Well, I beat Immortal on my second try with a score of 34887 in 1802. The first time I had Louis and he caused problems, invasion/demands, so I swapped him with Asoka. I'm not thrilled with my performance because the computer was pretty close to launching the ship and my map was about as good as it gets. That and I cheated at the very beginning by looking at the map to see if it was playable (now I wish I hadn't). I'm just so used to it from all the deity domination victories I usually play, where I hate wasting 10-20hrs if I don't end up with oil and aluminium. Although, with Immortal the resources and layout were plentiful both times I played, probably the difficulty level.

It was v1.61 cuz 1.74 won't work for some reason. Someone said "1.74 nerfed chopping," so I assume 1.61 is easier which is also a disappointment cuz it cheapens the win in my mind. Other settings> vanilla: balanced, normal, small, ancient, elizabeth, 4AI, low, temperate.

I was surprised at how much fun it was to win a cultural victory on immortal. At first I thought I would destroy it at the pace I was going, but then the computer stopped trading with me because "they were afraid I was getting too advanced." Soooo much more to think about and calculate than domination. With domination victories I can setup build queues etc. and more or less fly through the game harldy opening the city screen. Not with a cultural win. I looked in every city almost every turn, constantly juggling. My TI-83 got some serious use towards the end of the game when I couldn't do it all in my head. I can easily see how people go overboard to literally plan and calculate everything to get on the HOF list, just because that's probably what it takes.

Next stop, cultural win on deity. I need to learn some more about cultural wins and proper teching though, but I'm slowly starting to learn the proper lines to take. Oh yeah, how in the world are you guys building wonders AND properly attending to your cities growth? I only built one wonder, the taj mahal, and that was on immortal. R u using GEs? Also, by not choosing a state religion to keep my neighbors happy I did't get the pacifism bonus... Is there a way to switch religions freely other than when a new religion spreads in one of your cities? I've looked around and haven't found it...

jesusin
May 01, 2009, 10:41 AM
Congratulations!

I also enjoy the planning of a cultural game more than any other feature of any other VC.

To change religions anytime you go to F7 screen and click on the icons at the top.

Usylesses
Jun 23, 2009, 09:57 AM
Hi all, this guide works great in all respects except that when I play on deity I always get attacked by another civ sometime between 1000bc and 0. What strategies help you maintain the peace on deity? Again, awesome strat.

godotnut
Jun 23, 2009, 10:22 AM
To maintain the peace on Deity, the easiest stat is to simply choose all peacemonger opponents (Mansa, Gandhi, Asorka, Hatty, etc.). In addition, you want to develop a tech lead so that you can trade--or give--lower techs for the "you shared your technology bonus with us" diplo points. There are other tricks too: open borders ASAP, trading or giving away resources you don't need for that diplo bonus, etc. If this advice isn't enough, check out one of the guides for diplo games and apply what you learn their about diplo bonuses to the cultural game.

civ5freak
Aug 09, 2012, 08:06 AM
Where can I see your guideŋ

jesusin
Aug 10, 2012, 01:33 AM
Where can I see your guideŋ

To read Godotnut's guide you just go to the first post of this thread or use the link under Godotnut's signature.