...apparently anyway. Here's the supposed deal: When Great Britain declared war on Germany in 1914, the Isle of Man were part of it. Some sort of diplomatic change made it a Crown Dependancy or something, and then they never signed the Versailles treaty! So technically I, as a citizen of the IOM, can shoot a random German and get away with it, though I wouldn't bet any money on the fact...

For those who don't know, the Isle of Man is the island in between Enlgand (Liverpool) and Ireland (Dublin, more specifically) where the famed motorcycle road races called the TT (tourist trophy) takes place every June. It's relativly small, only 80,000 population. It's also a tax haven, meaning a lot of large companies are attracted to the place.

So?

Ten characters.

So!

10 char

[SH] Well, that seems rather a rude response.

This sounds interesting, although I have to say it has the air of an urban myth (saying that if you're Manx you can shoot a German and get away with it is to my ears like saying that if you turn up for your finals at Oxford in a suit of plate armour on a white horse you automatically get a first). In particular, even if it's true that the Isle of Man was not party to the Treaty of Versailles, what about the end of the Second World War?

I thought about that, and obviously we aren't really still at war, but technically speaking its possible. When war is declared, does it affect the regime or the country? i.e. Did america declare war on Iraq or the Hussein Goverment?

Well, on the country. If a country changes government and the new one decides it doesn't want to continue a war it inherits, it has to actively end it. Otherwise a country that's losing a war could arrange a "regime change" and claim that any further action by its enemy is an illegal invasion, thereby avoiding any punitive peace settlement!

Ahhh thanks. I don't even know whether the IOM was even involved in the declaration of War in WW2, but since some German Junkers Stuka dropped a few bombs here I guess we were pulled into it.

hmm. this is indeed kind of interesting.

reminds me a little of the stories we hear where Imperial Japanese soldiers (in their 70s and 80s mind you!) holed up in the mountainous jungles in the Philippines still think that the war is ongoing :crazyeye:

I thought about that, and obviously we aren't really still at war, but technically speaking its possible. When war is declared, does it affect the regime or the country? i.e. Did america declare war on Iraq or the Hussein Goverment?

The U.S. hasn't declared war on anyone since 1942.

If you killed a German the courts would not let you get away with it due to a simple technicality.

I believe, for roughly the same reasons, the (currently) English town of Berwick-upon-Tweed was for centuries still at war with Russia.

Over history it flipped between England and Scotland, and ended up being mentioned as part of the list of countries that declared war on Russia under Victoria.

Not mentioned in the peace treaty though.

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/berwick/berwickupontweed/

A peace treaty was only finally signed by a Russian diplomat and the the Mayor of Berwick in 1966.
As the mayor said at the time:
"You can tell the Russian people that they can now sleep peacefully in their beds".

Ahhh thanks. I don't even know whether the IOM was even involved in the declaration of War in WW2, but since some German Junkers Stuka dropped a few bombs here I guess we were pulled into it.

How the hell did Stuka bombers get to the Island of Man?

carefully and with a great deal of skill :)

The U.S. hasn't declared war on anyone since 1942.

All right, no doubt this is OT, but how can this possibly be true? What of Iraq?

How the hell did Stuka bombers get to the Island of Man?
uh, they flew...

All right, no doubt this is OT, but how can this possibly be true? What of Iraq?
I cannot give you an exact answer to your question, but I studied international law at university and I can say you that it isn't a simple, straightforward matter.

I think that it's possible that the USA, with the use of certain technicalities in international law, was able to avoid declaring war on other countries and still intervene in a military way.

I think for Iraq, they used the breach of UN resolutions and the doctrine of preemptive strike (which many believe does not exist in international law) to attack the regime of Saddam without declaring war as such. But to be more precise I would have to do some research.

At first a war is declared by a nation to another. It is officially ending with a peace treaty. After ww2 Germany had a peace treaty with the Allies at last with the so called 2 + 4 treaty. I think that should have ended all hostilities between Germany and the Allies at least and at last officially. Although I can´t remember a case where German troops after May 9th 1945 fired on Allies. I think with that treaty, although not knowing if all British lands are mentioned, a peace treaty is given, although the terminus peace treaty was not chosen.
However IF Germany is still at war with the IoM, you can´t shoot any German. A German soldier perhaps, but since there is at east a cease fire, it is hard to argue so. And German civilians are not valid targets in the eyes of international war law. So if you shoot a German civilian you would be charged for murder- or sent into a booby hatch, perhaps both.
At last the Ju 87 had not such a great range to fly from France to the IoM. Ju 88 perhaps, but not the Ju 87.

Adler

Adler17, what you say makes perfect sense.

However, I maintain that Manx shipping just outside of Douglas and even the coast of the Island itself were bombed by Stuka Dive Bombers.

Well the Ju 87 had only a range of 600 km, and in the R variant 1200. However I severly doubt that this were Ju 87 bombing IoM.

Adler

The Isle of Man is a crown dependency (i.e. it is owned by the British Crown) and has been a crown dependency since 1765. The Lord of Man is Queen Elizabeth II. The Isle of Man is self governing in domestic matters but the crown has reserved for itself the right to control matters of defense and foreign affairs relating to the Isle.

The United Kingdom declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939. It also did so on behalf of the various entities comprising the British Empire including the Isle of Man (the Dominions issued their own declarations of war) .

All hostilities between Germany and the allied powers (including Great Britain and the British Empire) ceased on May 8, 1945 as part of the unconditional German surrender. At that time a state of war no longer existed and there were no more German combatants. The fact that the various peace treaties were not signed until much later is not relevant. A peace treaty is not necessary to end hostilities. Keep in mind also that the allies were at war with the Third Reich and not with the successor government of the Bundesrepublik. Perhaps, more importantly, it is against the law of war for civilians to engage in armed combat. It is also against the law of war to intentionally kill civilians. So there are several reasons why it would be illegal for someone from the Isle of Man to kill a German in 2006. :nono:

The last time the United States formally declared war was on December 7, 1941 (not 1942). Subsequent wars have been undeclared and have been fought under the guise of calling them "police actions," or "armed responses" or have been conducted under the umbrella of United Nations Resolutions. There is an ongoing debate in this country about the constitutionality of undeclared wars. :hmm:

On another matter, the distance from Caen to Douglas is something like 600 kilometers. The maximum range of the JU-87G was around 1000 kilometers. So a German bombing of Man is theoretically possible but I can't see any military reason for it even if you could get there and back without being shot down. :confused:

edit: fixed a grammar problem

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Well researched! I didn't look into it in that much detail!

I am surprised you know even more about the Isle of Man than I do. How did you know all that?

The Island did get bombed at least once. Whether it was by that particular aircraft I do not know.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Well researched! I didn't look into it in that much detail!

I am surprised you know even more about the Isle of Man than I do. How did you know all that?

Glad to help. :salute:

I recently had the need to read about Crown Dependencies while doing some research on another project.

And thats how you found about it. I'm intrigued because this is a very insignificant area of the world.

ahhh...i wouldn't say insignificant. obscure maybe...but not insignificant :)

And thats how you found about it. I'm intrigued because this is a very insignificant area of the world.

Well, it also helps that my own family is from Islay which is just up the "road" so to speak. I also had a brief correspondence with James Clavell who lived on the Isle of Man.

The last time the United States formally declared war was on December 7, 1941 (not 1942).

Not true. You're forgetting Germany and its European allies. We declared war on Germany and Italy on December 11 and Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania on June 5, 1942.

By the way, the actual declaration of war against Japan was December 8. December 7 was a Sunday.

By the way, although Great Britain and the dominions declared war on Finland in December 6, 1941 (Russia had been at war with Finland since June), the United States never declared war on Finland.

sydhe - You are correct on all points.

Peace treaties were signed by the United States:

Italy - February 10, 1947
Hungary -February 10, 1947
Bulgaria - February 10, 1947
Romania -February 10, 1947
Japan - September 8, 1951
Austria - May 15, 1955
Germany - September 12, 1990

Probably a BF-110 rather than a JU-87.

The last time the United States formally declared war was on December 7, 1941 (not 1942).

Technically, we declared war on Japan on Dec. 8th, not the 7th. Germany and Japan came three days later. I know that at least Romania had war declared on it by the US in 1942, and I think some other German allies did as well.

But Germany declared war on the US and not the other way round (and considering the US Naval actions against German civilian shipping and Uboats this might have been the only justified declaration of war by Hitler (with justified I mean only the single case and not the whole war!)).

Adler

But Germany declared war on the US and not the other way round (and considering the US Naval actions against German civilian shipping and Uboats this might have been the only justified declaration of war by Hitler (with justified I mean only the single case and not the whole war!)).
Adler

Good point. Roosevelt was doing everything he could to get the U.S. into the war. We were sending materiel to Britain by the boatload. The so called Neutrality Patrol was hardly neutral.

Hitler's declaration of war on the United States was also one of the worst decisions he made during the war. There was considerable anti-war sentiment in the U.S. at the time and also a vocal pro-German faction. It's entirely conceivable the the U.S. could have gone to war against Japan but not Germany.

Germany declared war on the United States first but the U.S. reciprocated. From the Joint Resolution of Congress passed December 8, 1941:

"Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore be it

Resolved, etc., That the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany, which has thus been thrust upon the United States, is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and, to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States."

ahhh...i wouldn't say insignificant. obscure maybe...but not insignificant :)
Why do you say this? Why is it not insignificant, and why is it obscure?

Well, it also helps that my own family is from Islay which is just up the "road" so to speak. I also had a brief correspondence with James Clavell who lived on the Isle of Man.
James Clavell? Never heard of him. Should I have?

Quite well known author, though I don't know if he has published anything in the last years. The books I've read and liked are Shogun, Tai-Pan and Noble House. I could never get more than 100 pages into Whirlwind...

The Isle of Man isn't insignificant - if nothing else, it has what I believe is the oldest extant parliament in the world. But I suppose it's obscure simply in the sense that most people don't know much about the place. Apart from the cats, of course.

IIRC Clavel is dead.

Adler

Why do you say this? Why is it not insignificant, and why is it obscure?
well, i would venture to say that no place on earth is really "insignificant". i guess i'm just trying to be PC. as for being "obscure", yes, what Plotinus said. ;)

re FDR and his pre-US entry attitude vs the Germans and Japanese:
FDR loathed Hitler. now, this is, of course, a given for much of the western world at this time. however, Churchill and Stalin were begging him to do something and from what i've gathered from a summer of studying Roosevelt was that he'd have rather pointed his guns at Germany first (pearl harbor not withstanding). he would often argue internally w/ Sec of War Stimson over the benefits of putting the bulls-eye on Hitler first. Stimson, however, was of the mindset that Japan had to be dealt w/ first. it is interesting reading (primary resource stuff, too)...the banter of whom to target.

i must say though that Hitler's declaration of war against the Americans wasn't his shrewdest military move. however, hindsight is 20/20 i s'pose and it was likely that the Yanks would've declared war first had Germany not done so.

PS - there's a bunch of wrecks located only a short distance from the beaches in Atlantic City and Brigantine, New Jersey (some less than a mile) which were sunk by German uboats during the war. they even list them on the nautical maps around my parts (date sunk and even the uboat name). they make for great artificial reefs where the fish hang out, breed, etc. i've caught me share of 'em around these wrecks, too :cool:

The Isle of Man isn't insignificant - if nothing else, it has what I believe is the oldest extant parliament in the world. But I suppose it's obscure simply in the sense that most people don't know much about the place. Apart from the cats, of course.
hehe those cats are worth between 3 and 5 hundred dollars. What I don't get is why people would want them so much, because they all have very bad bowel conditions that make them, er, well, prone to involuntary excretion all the time.

It also does have the longest existing parliament (called Tynwald) but how on earth did you know that Plotinus?

IIRC Clavel is dead.

You are correct. He died in 1994.

He was also a screenwriter: The Fly, The Great Escape; and director: To Sir With Love. Other novels besides those already mentioned are King Rat and Gaijin.

Good movies, the Great Escape and the Fly. In high school my marching band played the theme from the Great Escape. Hehe we ddi Colonel Bogey too, the one htey whistle in Bridge on the River Kwai.

It also does have the longest existing parliament (called Tynwald) but how on earth did you know that Plotinus?

Well, it's a well-known fact, I'd have thought. Of course, like most people I think that anyone who doesn't know stuff that I know is very stupid, while anyone who knows stuff I don't know is a genius, so perhaps I'm wrong.

As for the cats - I've been wondering recently about Malaysian cats, which all have short tails with a kink in them. I assumed that these are natural, and Malaysian cats are sort of half-like Manx cats, but then I had an argument with someone who said that they're normal cats that get their tails docked. I wonder if anyone here knows the answer? Could there be mysterious historical links between Man and Malaysia? Even the first two letters in their names are the same! Probably something to do with Atlantis. I bet they had weird cats too.

It is really surprisingly: We started about if Germany is still at war with the isle of Man and now we are soon discussing Atlantis and if the cats there were unique! Did Platon mentioned them?

Adler

As for the cats - I've been wondering recently about Malaysian cats, which all have short tails with a kink in them. I assumed that these are natural, and Malaysian cats are sort of half-like Manx cats, but then I had an argument with someone who said that they're normal cats that get their tails docked. I wonder if anyone here knows the answer? Could there be mysterious historical links between Man and Malaysia? Even the first two letters in their names are the same! Probably something to do with Atlantis. I bet they had weird cats too.

But wait! There's something else that begin with Ma - Mary-Magdalen! (and BOTH names begin with MA, too!).

Therefore we can conclude that, whatever the link between Man and Malaysia cats, the Catholic Church is involved in the cover-up.

who needs war when there's those furry little fiends?!?!
http://www.kittykondo.com/manx.jpg

But wait! There's something else that begin with Ma - Mary-Magdalen! (and BOTH names begin with MA, too!).

Therefore we can conclude that, whatever the link between Man and Malaysia cats, the Catholic Church is involved in the cover-up.

Curses! You have guessed the subject of my next great opus, with which I plan to make a bucket of cash and retire early:

The Cat Code - exposing the greatest cover-up in history: Jesus failed to follow RSPCA advice about neutering household pets, and as a result the bloodline of the Messianic Cat still exists to this very day...

Bob Barker would sure like that theme :p

Dan Browne, too.

Adler

Plotinus
As for the cats - I've been wondering recently about Malaysian cats, which all have short tails with a kink in them. I assumed that these are natural, and Malaysian cats are sort of half-like Manx cats, but then I had an argument with someone who said that they're normal cats that get their tails docked. I wonder if anyone here knows the answer? Could there be mysterious historical links between Man and Malaysia? Even the first two letters in their names are the same! Probably something to do with Atlantis. I bet they had weird cats too.

From Cat World by Desmond Morris:

"Victorian Zoologist St. George Mivert, discussing the various breeds of domestic cats known to him in 1881, comments, 'In Pegu, Siam and Burmah, there is a race of cats-the Malay Cat--with tails only half the ordinary length, and often contorted in a sort of knot, so that it cannot be straightened...Its contortion is due to a deformity of the bones of a tail...'

"Judging by the description of the tail, it seems likely that the Malay Cat was related to, or identical with the Japanese Bobtail Cat. It is thought that the Bobtail originally arrived in Japan from China about a thousand years ago. Burma borders Western China and it seems likely the stump-tailed breed was originally found right across the region."

I'm surprised he doesn't consider the possibility that Chinese traders might have taken the cats with them. The Japanese Bobtail is naturally bobtailed and is featured in Japanese art and is a popular breed in Japan. They don't seem to be closely related to Manx.

Curses! You have guessed the subject of my next great opus, with which I plan to make a bucket of cash and retire early: The Cat Code ...

You mean you aren't retired yet? I thought my twenty bucks might have put you over the top.

And as for the cat code, I wonder if there are any cats in a movie whose name I won't mention and don't plan to see. :mischief:

All right, no doubt this is OT, but how can this possibly be true? What of Iraq?

It's true. The last time the U.S. formally declared war was during WW2. There hasn't been a formal declaration of war anytime after that.

Make of that what you will - but it's true!

On the Tynwald: Actually, the Løgting of the Faroes is generally accepted as the oldest of the three Viking parliaments of Man, the Faroes, and Iceland. The Icelandic Althing is also fourty-nine years older than the Tynwald. Admittadly, the Tynwald can be concidered the oldest continually existing representative body of the three. However, the San Marinese republic was founded in 301 CE and its representative government has never been interrupted in its one thousand, seven hundred, and five year history. This makes it the world's oldest, and longest continuous, representative body, beeting the Tynwald by several centuries.

Aern't Russia and Japan still technically at war? Also in theory couldn't Germany have got supplies form America but.....

1. They had no overseas bases to lease to the USA to pay for stuff.
2. They had no merchant navy worth mentioning to pick equipment up.
3. The Royal navy.

The downside of preparing for a short continental war and ending up in a world war.

Yes, both nations are still at war, there is only a cease fire! Juristically seen. There are nevertheless negotiations but since the Japanese demanding back the three islands of the Kurilen, which belonged to them, still no treaty made. And with an eye on East Prussia I can understand the Japanese...

Adler

Germany wants East Prussia back? Or the remnant sandwhiched between Polad and Lithuania?

Well, officially Germany doesn´t demand it back from Russia. That was only my personal opinion. However: What for use do the Russians have from? It is an enclave between Nato and EU states. It is worthless in times of war. And historical claims does not exist. So why don´t they "sell" it to us?
But that is only my opinion.

Adler

Maybe the people who live there want to stay Russian. Gibraltar isn't much use to Britain, but most Gibraltans would rather have their fingernails pulled out than become Spanish. They're more British than the British!

The Third Punic War between Carthage and Rome started in 149 BC. It theoretically ended when Rome burned the city of Carthage to the ground, destroyed it's walls and harbor, supposedly spread salt over the area so nothing would grow, and put up a sign up saying it was a capitol punishment to spend the night at the site in 146 BC. However, in 1985 AD the mayors of Rome and Tunis signed a symbolic peace treaty, ending the war 2133 years after it started.

I went to Carthage College and remember hearing about this on the History Channel as the longest war ever. (on a technicallity)

That sounds a bit unlikely to me, given that the Roman empire subsequently refounded Carthage and it became an important Roman city. Surely the war must have ended by then?

Well, officially Germany doesn´t demand it back from Russia. That was only my personal opinion. However: What for use do the Russians have from? It is an enclave between Nato and EU states. It is worthless in times of war. And historical claims does not exist. So why don´t they "sell" it to us?
But that is only my opinion.

Adler

Several problems with that theory. The people are no longer German and assuming the Russians did want to sell it Poland at the least would object. Having a country split in 2 is never a good idea. The territory should really go to the Poles or Lithuanians assuming Russia wanted to get rid of it.

Well I have to disagree, as these states do not have any claims. However I am biased. Also I just saw a documentation in the TV about North East Prussia. Many Russians also living there would rather live in a German East Prussia instead in a Russian. However I admit I do not know the percentage of population. Concerning the population living there it would be a problem indeed if the Russians wanted to sell it. However that problem is not acute as well as the Russians still do not want to sell it. But since it was a crime against humanity to displace the Germans living there and that annexions are against international law, this also has to be considered.
But that would be thread jacking here, if we continue.
So back to topic. When is a war ended: After the peace treaty was made, sure. But also when the other state was totally destroyed. That happened with Carthago. So no, since 146 BC the war was over.
OTOH Berwick upon Tweed is still at war with Russia although the mayor made peace with them. But he did not have the authority to act so. Only the Queen or the PM could do so. So IMO this is a good candidate for the longest war.

Adler

Yes, both nations are still at war, there is only a cease fire! Juristically seen. There are nevertheless negotiations but since the Japanese demanding back the three islands of the Kurilen, which belonged to them, still no treaty made.

A cease fire implies that hostilities can be restarted. By accepting and signing the unconditional instrument of surrender dictated by the Allied Powers, the state of war between Japan and the Allied Powers (including the former Soviet Union) ceased at that moment.

The former Soviet Union refused to sign the San Francisco Treaty in 1951 leaving Soviet-Japanese relations in limbo. Although a peace treaty has yet to be signed, diplomatic relations were re-established in October 1956 with the signing of a joint declaration which had many of the characteristics of a peace treaty if not in name.

Negotiations are still continuing. The primary sticking point is the territorial dispute over the four Kurile Islands and South Sakhalin. However, there are other a host of other issues such as Russia's failure to provide Japan with a full accounting of the fate of all Japanese prisoners of war held by the Soviets at the end of World War II.

Although I have not heard of this particular scenario involving that aggressive war-mongering Island, there is a similar tale quoted by a guy who wrote in the Manx newspapers during the 1930's called Dusty Miller regarding the Island declaring war on the Americas (War of Independence) and it only coming to light that they were still technically foes when the US entered the First World War.

Now that, my friend, is a useful necro. Too bad most of the other necroes by noobs aren't. Welcome to CFC.

Interesting thread, but I can't see how Germany and the IoM can still be at war considering the treaties signed at the end of WWII. Any talk about Rome and Carthage being at war after Carthage was razed to the ground and its people sold into slavery is horsecrap.

There's been some talk about the Kaliningrad Salient - Russian East Prussia - becoming a fourth Baltic Republic, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. It's still more likely than it going to any of the other nations who have claims on it; Poland, Lithuania, Germany, even Belarus. It won't be partitioned, international opinion wouldn't allow it, and the result would be massive internal unrest.

I find the idea of the IoM and America being at war more believable, but for that to be true they'd have to have declared war on the US, not a bunch of rebels. So it's still fairly unlikely.

I was watching some newsreels just the other day about the Soviet refusal to sing the San Francisco Treaty. I found the idea that anyone could be so gullible and uninformed as to believe such tripe startling, until I remembered that Sarah Palin very nearly became the Vice-President of the United States. Technically Russia - probably all former Soviet states - is at war with Japan, and North and South Korea are at war with one another. Montenegro signed a treaty with Japan a few years ago, having technically been at war with it since the Russo-Japanese War in 1904-05. There's a Wiki page completely devoted to such wars.

That sounds a bit unlikely to me, given that the Roman empire subsequently refounded Carthage and it became an important Roman city. Surely the war must have ended by then?

Well, if you still care from roughly 2 years ago...

I think this is because the Romans assumed the war was over once Carthage was conquered. By our modern standards, a treaty must be signed for a war to be over. Back then, the Romans didn't care--they felt they eradicated their enemy, and thus the war was over.

If anything, this story about Rome and Carthage is about our modern prejudice about how wars should end, not whether or not it actually ended.

Well if you really want to take this to a whole new level of insanity, shouldn't the Isle of Man which became a dependency prior to the American Revolution, still be at war with the United States, since they never signed a peace treaty with them.

Though in reality, as much as it would probably be the most interesting international incident in the past while, the Isle of Man in not at war with Germany.

I cannot give you an exact answer to your question, but I studied international law at university and I can say you that it isn't a simple, straightforward matter.

I think that it's possible that the USA, with the use of certain technicalities in international law, was able to avoid declaring war on other countries and still intervene in a military way.

I think for Iraq, they used the breach of UN resolutions and the doctrine of preemptive strike (which many believe does not exist in international law) to attack the regime of Saddam without declaring war as such. But to be more precise I would have to do some research.

We never declared war on Argentina in 1982; you can fight without declaring war officially.

We never declared war on Argentina in 1982; you can fight without declaring war officially.

In the USA, the President is the head of the army and can maneuver troops and even order attacks without direct Congressional approval (in the form of a declaration of war or some other kind of resolution that allows for longer deployment without calling it a war) for a limited time period of 60 days. I would guess Parliaments and other representative bodies in other countries establish similar limits, although I don't know what those figures are off-hand.

So long as the chief executive calls it a policing action or uses some fancy semantics to get around the wording of international agreements (What, we can't blockade? How about a quarantine?), they can still order strikes. On many levels, I find this distasteful, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.