Welcome to the citizen's discussion thread, where you can sound off about anything related to the game.

Elected Officials: If you want your voice to be heard above the others, please post your orders in the Instruction Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171179)!

Are we going to try for a religion and which one will it be?

Are we going to try for a religion and which one will it be?

Well we are still quite aways away from being able to decide that ;)

Because Buddism and Hinduism are gone, so are early discussio nabout religion, as for Judaism, I am sure that will be taken be fore it becomes a thought for us.

Our best chances at an ealier Religion are Confucianism or Christianity, both of which we won't be deciding until roughly turns 41-60 (or even maybe 61-80) :)

Personally I know we are going to research Pottery next, but after that it is really hard to say, I know we have disccused an Oracle Slingshot to get Metal Casting :science:, but to do that we need to get both Meditation and Priesthood.

If we have Copper close then we could go:

Meditation ==> Priesthood ==> Code Of Laws

Or if we meet some neighbours we could get Alphabet and possibly trade

Either way when it coems to research we are ahead of the game since we already have writing and Animal Husbandry, (Having to Research these two techs would put us behind ~20 turns)

In any event it should be a good set of 20 turns! :salute:

Well I had no where else to really post this :sad: soo...

Incase anyone was wondering I just sent this off to DaveShack cause he came online 2 times today, and I figure he is unware the save was a no go in the email

Hey Dave ~

I don't mean to be rude or bug you, but I figured it wouldn't even cross your mind to look at the MTDG turn tracker since it is normal That DaveMcW would post after you saing turn 21 to Loco. :)

However this tiem his post was to say that he didn't get save in the email :(. I figured no one has let you in yet, I knwo he also sent an email, but if you are anything like our team then no one checks the email unless it is thier turn to play. :lol:

So in any event if you already knew sorry to bug you. If you didn't know well now you do :goodjob:

Anyways have a good one

Memphus Member of
Epsilon Team

Fe3333au you were "cc'ed" since you're our UN Rep, and I hope I am not stepping over my civil duty

So hopefully that is ok by the team :salute: if not.... :hmm: I suppose I could be banished to our northern most remote city ;)

I sent him a PM myself an hour ago. :lol:

Screenshot from the end of Turn 20:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4132/civ4screenshot00934cl.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot00934cl.jpg)

We do have copper! [party]

Nice having copper so close is kind of huge. Was so scared about scarsity of resources given the custom made map and all.

I would still like to beeline for Priesthood and the Oracle after getting Pottery.

With Writing, we have a 171:science: head start on Code of Laws. We have a great chance of getting CoL first for the religion. We may even get it before the Oracle is built, meaning we can do the Civil Service Slingshot!

If we're serious about the CS slingshot, we need to get a Library up ASAP.

Well it is nice to see there is no shortage of great spots to found our second third even 4th city :goodjob:

As for DaveMcW's Suggestion, I think it could be a great idea to try for even a CS slingshot, it would defiently put us in a position power, but then the question becomes, would everyone form a coalition vs us? (Foreign minister I am looking at you ;) )

Either way now that we know we have copper, our research path (Unless some convinces me otherwise) will be as follows
:science:

1. Pottery starting next turn :woo:
2. Meditation
3. Priesthood
4. CoL

************************************************** *****

But the big question becomes, because we do needa library ASAP, but we also need a second city and a third warrior for the :) in our Capital (or else one unit would have to come back which I think is a bad Idea)


So as for build options we have the following:

Settler, Warrior, Library.

Personally I think the settler should have a lower priority until our city :food: grows more, and our worker can get maximized tiles.

So that leaves us with Warrior and Library. This Warriors Primary role will be fortified in the city for the :)

Considerations: Barbarians, now we can see that we are in the North, and there is Coast on the east and the west, So our Capital is faily gaurded.

Tonight (or Tommorow) I will reconstruct our map (and post it) as seen and put us on the current date to run some simulations and find out when Barbarians will show up, as well as the Timing for the Library, 3rd Warrior and Settler.

The other timing issue to Remember is we want a settler out before we start the Oracle, As well as the Consideration (I know our Department of defence will probably be :mad: ) about sending him off undefended :eek:

Now I am a rookie but I got to ask one thing. Generally in a solo game I would go worker and chop for the settler then a library. Normally 4 total forests and u quickly can get two cites and library done.

I am probably jsut showing place rookiness but solo I normally go for Oracal by chopping 1st settler then the oracal.

Did that make sense?

Now I am a rookie but I got to ask one thing. Generally in a solo game I would go worker and chop for the settler then a library. Normally 4 total forests and u quickly can get two cites and library done.

I am probably jsut showing place rookiness but solo I normally go for Oracal by chopping 1st settler then the oracal.

Did that make sense?

It does make sense to use to forests, the only problem is with the new patch they are only worth 20 :hammers: instead of 30 :(

Which means you would need 5 forests for a Settler, 6 for a Library
So we don't have that many around.

Also I believe as Per Kyleran's Advice our Worker will be improving the hills and the Rice early on to maximize out surplus for when we do build a settler.

Another option is a second worker.

Currently needed tasks
Farm/road rice
2x mine hills
4x cottage on floodplains
Road to 2nd city
Improve resource at 2nd city
2x chop forest

That's a lot of work for one worker to do!

Another option is a second worker.

Currently needed tasks
Farm/road rice
2x mine hills
4x cottage on floodplains
Road to 2nd city
Improve resource at 2nd city
2x chop forest

That's a lot of work for one worker to do!

Without a doubt you are right there :worship:

but I think as with the settler beign a little furhter down on the priority the same should be the worker (well at least until the Rice and two mines are done, which would give us +3 surplus/turn more than we currently are getting)

==>special explanaiton for teams memeber who just read that and said :confused:

We Currently have +11 :food: and 1 :hammers: a turn. However our hungry city is eating 6 food (size) * 2, that leaves us with a surplus for a worker or a settler of +5 :food: +1 :hammers:

Alternatively if we worked two mines and 1 farmed rice we would have
+6 :food: + 9 :hammers: which after the hungry epsilonians eat leave us with +0 food but +9 hammers for a difference of +3 a turn (9 vs 6 (5+1))

So personally I would like the second worker to be started once those 3 improvements are complete, (they happen to be the first 3 improvements scheduled :evil:)

So the question becomes (which I need to check in the simulation) can we finish a Library before that :hmm:

But the other consideration is we will need a warrior for that :) to let us grow one size bigger.


************************************************** *******

Seperate note for Our Glorious President, are we switch to slavery? :eek: (I am not very good with that civic, but DaveMcW if you know what you are doing then sounds good to me)

Slavery is very good if you can afford the 1:mad: per whip. But with our capital running into the happiness limit, it's not very useful to us right now.

Hi,

Memphus dragged me in here from our succession game. :) I've downloaded the save and I'll take a look at it but for now I'll probably just lurk around a little bit until I get the feel of things or am handed an assignment. If I have a suggestion or an idea I'll pop in with my 2 cents.

Oso

Hi,

while it's nice that we have copper nearby, I'm still wondering if it can be true that rice is the only resource we have at our capital...? Rice, one of the worst resources? I can only hope that we have horses and/or iron there too, otherwise we would have a bad starting location. :( This also makes the two forests we have in our city radius quite important to keep IMHO, as we have no other sources of hammers except for the two hills. We should keep that in mind when planning what to do next - I think chopping them to rush something would be a bad idea long-term. (The extra +1 health will come in handy sooner or later as well, considering the four floodplains!)


Regarding whipping, I think we should delay adopting slavery as long as possible, following the "What Can Wait, Should Wait" mantra and postponing any anarchy period until we really need it. But if we are indeed going for the Oracle, whipping it might become necessary to beat our opponents to it; at least the city will be able to regrow very fast with the vast amount of food we have.

I have no experience with MP to have an opinion if going for the Oracle after building a settler and/or a library is sensible or not. If we try to get the Oracle however, we should not take any risks! Delaying it to get CS for example would be a bad idea IMHO. If we can build it at full speed, and/or whip it, we should do that and not delay it to wait until a research of CoL has been finished.

But I really like the idea of an ultra-early academy! While we are hammer-poor, we have a lot of tiles suitable for cottages, so an early academy can be really powerful.

Argh, have I mentioned I cannot believe we only have rice at our capital?!? :mad: After researching all the stuff necessary for our plan (Priesthood/CoL for example, if we decide to go for the Oracle), we should try to get AH and/or IW to check...

-Kylearan

We already have AH, and no horses. :(

What annoys me more is no stone/marble. What good is our industrious trait if other teams start with those resources and we don't. :mad:

Remember that Sirian's goal was equality, he didn't have it out to get one team, so what we miss here we will gain later.

Turn 26 - 2960BC
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2946/civ4screenshot01196qr.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot01196qr.jpg) http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/723/civ4screenshot01221oq.th.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot01221oq.jpg) http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9969/civ4screenshot01207xj.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot01207xj.jpg)

Dark Puma can promote to Combat I or City Raider I. This will heal him halfway to full health. Is there any reason to delay picking a promotion?

Should Dark Puma explore behind the mountains, or head west?

Also, we have enough information to start making Dot Maps™ of city sites.

A much as I want to know what those mountains are shielding (a dragon, perhaps?), I think it would be wiser of us to move SW, so that we continue uncovering the black around Epsilon Eridani.

One other thing - just to be safe, DaveMcW, you might want to post a publuic copy in the UN or your last line in the above post, to ensure that any other Teams that use the term "Dot Map" pay Epsilon Team! the due licensing fees ;)

Epsilon Team! patents the Dot Map™

EPSILON ERIDANI - Government officials announced today that have patented the Dot Map™. "I recieved a letter from the US Patent Office this morning," said President DaveMcW. "They accepted our application and granted us patent number 5,220,432 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,220,432.PN.)." A patent grants the holder exclusive rights to use the invention for 25 years.

Epsilon Team! is willing to share their knowledge. "I am putting together a licensing program right now," said Foreign Minister General_W. "We are looking to charge other teams about 1 gold per Dot, with volume discounts available."

Science Minister Memphus explained how he discovered the Dot Map™. "I was telling everyone how great it would be to build a city at Eridani-7-7-8-8, but no one understood what I was talking about. So I drew a map in the sand and placed a dot where our settler should go. :yup:"

http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9489/dotmap6wu.jpg
The First Dot Map™

Chief Prosecuter peter grimes immediately recognized the value of the invention, and put together the paperwork to obtain a US Patent. He is also credited with coming up with the name Dot Map™.

Not everyone was happy with new patent. "I have been using maps with dots for years, and suddenly I have to pay lisence fees? Something is seriously wrong with this patent system," complained Conan the local barbarian. Defense Minister lost_civantares restored order by chopping off Conan's head.

:rotfl: :lol:

The capital seems rather poor in that map...

Man that is funny! All sacrifices are good in the name of Epsilon no matter what the supposed cost!

I love it!
:thumbsup:

That should totally go in the UN! :D

I love it!
:thumbsup:

That should totally go in the UN! :D

I believe that's your job. ;)


4) The Office of the Foreign Ministry
E) Department of Propaganda
- Run by the Chief Foreign Minister or an appointee of the CFM.
- Responsible for any “news” or non-official correspondence sent out to other teams.
- Responsible to maintain the “Department of Propaganda” thread and.

Done!

:salute:

That should get a good reaction :lol:

Turn 30 - 2800BC
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1588/civ4screenshot01400ku.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot01400ku.jpg)

Dark Puma can pop a hut next turn. The probabilities are:

Gold 30%
Barbarians 20%
Tech 10%
Experience 10%
Map 10%
Warrior 10%
Scout 5%
Healing 5%

I think we can improve our chances significantly if he heals to full health before popping it.

How long would it take to heal to full health? If one turn, I think that's a good idea if it improves our hut probabilities.

Also, what do you think the chances are that we are on our own island?

I think our first settler should settle a coastal location. Then we need to get a boat as soon as possible.

It will take two turns to heal Dark Puma.

How long would it take to heal to full health? If one turn, I think that's a good idea if it improves our hut probabilities.

Also, what do you think the chances are that we are on our own island?

I think our first settler should settle a coastal location. Then we need to get a boat as soon as possible.


I beg to Differ, Priority one should be getting a military center up and running (i.e. the city has high production low science and build primarily units.) The perfect site for this also happens to net us copper which is hugely important once barbarians show up.

Second city should be built to the east., third city on the coast (because fishing isn't in our immmediate research path anyways ;) )

I would prefer to build the second city on the river, to boost our research towards Civil Service. We can do ok with warriors until the second settler is built.

I would prefer to build the second city on the river, to boost our research towards Civil Service. We can do ok with warriors until the second settler is built.


That is a valid point as in my dry run we had to delay the oracle because CoL was behind. As far as defenses go it looks like barbs are the only threat and no other teams will be near us for an early war :)

And besides once he is built it is up to the Presidency to decide where he goes ;)

I would prefer to build the second city on the river, to boost our research towards Civil Service. We can do ok with warriors until the second settler is built.


That is a valid point as in my dry run we had to delay the oracle because CoL was behind

Besides after the Settler is built he belongs to the presidency

Hi,

I would prefer to build the second city on the river, to boost our research towards Civil Service. We can do ok with warriors until the second settler is built.
I second this!

-Kylearan

My concern is that if we are on an island, the lack of a naval exploration may make us take longer to meet somebody. In a multi-team game, early contact and exploration is critical. Although, there may be a difference between Civ3 and Civ4 that I'm not aware of that makes this a little bit less critical. If so, please inform me. Otherwise, I will continue to advocate building our second city on the coast.

By the way, Memphus, what is the settler build schedule? I mean, how long will it be in between settler builds? If we do in fact wait to build the coastal city, how much longer will it take to get that boat out?

Hi,

My concern is that if we are on an island, the lack of a naval exploration may make us take longer to meet somebody.
The problem is that if we are indeed alone, the size of our landmass makes it not very likely that there will be a "bridge" for our work boat/galley to cross the ocean to any other landmasses. Remember, work boats/galleys cannot leave the coast, only if the tile they are entering is in the cultural border of a city. That means no more suicide galleys!

On archipelago maps, there's a chance that a work boat can sail around the globe, hopping from small island to small island. However, on maps with large landmasses like we are on, this does not happen very often. It can be possible, but not likely.

But then I would find it hard to believe that we are isolated until Optics, and unable to wage war until Astronomy, so...I hope we *will* meet somebody soon, on our land. :)

-Kylearan

The problem is that if we are indeed alone, the size of our landmass makes it not very likely that there will be a "bridge" for our work boat/galley to cross the ocean to any other landmasses.

This may not be very likely on a random map - but remember, this map was designed for team play by a human.

I have no doubt that if we are indeed on an island, there will be a water "bridge" for our ships to cross.

Are we so sure that our little Jungle Peninsula at the extreme South-East of our land doesn’t connect to something? I'm still thinking it will. (or maybe that's just our jumping off point for Galley Island hoping?) Either way – we need to see what's there before we get too excited.

And just for the record – there's obviously no real badguys near us… so I'm also in favor of settling on the river. We need to make sure we take full advantage of our Financial trait. Besides – it doesn’t do us a lot of good to find other people until we have alphabet anyway. (except to know where we have to hustle to beat them to resources)
That's my 2 cents anyway!

Hey - the good news is that it looks like we're NOT on an island. I'll wager that we're on a connection to another Island. Making control of this Peninsula very important. (says obvious man)

Okay I agree that now it looks like we are not on an island.

However, I have more musings about our possible world...

Could it be that we are on a pseudo-island, with specific choke points that serve as land bridges connecting all other pseudo-islands?

Or in the south, we have our bridge, but what if there is another just west of the known bridge? What if that bridge ends surrounded by mountains on our island? Further - what if the bridge we are crossing ends in a similar dead-end?

Okay I agree that now it looks like we are not on an island.

However, I have more musings about our possible world...

Could it be that we are on a pseudo-island, with specific choke points that serve as land bridges connecting all other pseudo-islands?

Or in the south, we have our bridge, but what if there is another just west of the known bridge? What if that bridge ends surrounded by mountains on our island? Further - what if the bridge we are crossing ends in a similar dead-end?

Well I would say 90% of these issues will be discovered by the time we build our Second Settler at which point we can decide where he goes.

This Afternoon I will try and maek use of our Dot Map For potential City Sites (also with my prefered order of building them)

Dot Map #1

City Placement:

Now this is simply an initial placement, obviously as more of the map gets discovered, locations change.

City #2
Following DaveMcW and Kyleran City #2 should either be the Yellow of the Pink (and of course which ever is chosen then the other location no longer applies.)

there are pros and cons of both of these spots but I'll let our President hash that out (or else maybe an even better location)

City function: Research Center, location of Second Great Scientist for Academy

City#3

At this point Copper will become a Requirement as stronger Barbarians will be showing up :(

That gives two city options:

Dark Blue
Brown.

Now Brown is a overall better city site but it is far away and is covered in jungle (we will probably still lack iron working)

So I would vote for The blue site so we can hook up copper (and a sheep)
and have this city contribute pretty much 0 Commerce but be our Military Factory. The only draw back of this is it is in the back and not very central, so may not be the wisest choice for the Heroic Epic)

City #4

Depending what turns up to the West of our Captial the fish and cow look tempting (And also gets us the ability to build ships if built along the coast)

However at this stage we are roughly looking at 500 B.C. and the Southern Red and Blue sites may be critical to choke off our southern Nieghbour (who I know is down there)

Another thing to consider is the brown site looks very temptign at this stage as that city will be very powerful (2 Gems, copper and Banana) but will take some up front investment.

so City 4 is where I stop because we are lookign to far now, but I think City #2 needs to be decided in the next month or so ;)

Another thing to consider is border expansion. Our 2nd city will also be a holy city, so it will have no trouble expanding to radius 2 or even 3. Our 3rd city will be stuck with 9 tiles for quite a while.

Another thing to consider is border expansion. Our 2nd city will also be a holy city, so it will have no trouble expanding to radius 2 or even 3. Our 3rd city will be stuck with 9 tiles for quite a while.

In Which Case Pink would be a better choice (defense bonus on the desert hill) more floodplains

The only drawback is it will take longer to get there

The bonus of this is with border expansion, if we don't open our borders to foreign neighbours this city can act as an interim block for the Red city

Hi,

if we want to make a science city out of our second one long-term, then yellow dot is not so hot because it has mostly plains around it, so not many cottages could be supported.

Pink dot would be a lot better in that regard, but would be farther away. Plus, we would probably waste tiles, depending on where we found our other cities.

Argh, this is really hard to dotmap! At least we have yet another reason why we should get CS ASAP: All those plains tiles need irrigation...

-Kylearan

Here's a couple more dots.

Green Dot - This has sheep inside the borders, allowing it to work 2 more cottages than yellow dot. Immediately gives 4:science:.

Red Dot - This has more food than blue dot and gets the copper after border expansion. 2:science: initially, 2:science: more with a road connecting the river.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6518/5dot1lt.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5dot1lt.jpg)

After takign a long look at spot 2 and three I would have to agree that Green and Red are the choices to make :goodjob:

What is better is I am working on way to have us grow to size 5 the turn we finish our warrior which will expediate the production of the settler by 1 turn from my original prediction :)

The bonus of this (one turn settler earlier, extra commerce from increase pop)combined with the red site means that we won't have to ease of on the construction of the Oracle while waiting for CoL. Which is optimal :)

Is there any way to tell if the body of water NW of Dark Puma is fresh or salty? Just curious :)

Yep, if I turn on the resource overlay. :)

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/527/civ4screenshot01534yg.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot01534yg.jpg)

Not to state the obvious, but am I to assume that the Bay is salty? I see 1 food in those tiles, while the lake has two food. That's how to tell, right?

Yes, it's salty.

Here's a couple more dots.

Green Dot - This has sheep inside the borders, allowing it to work 2 more cottages than yellow dot. Immediately gives 4:science:.

Red Dot - This has more food than blue dot and gets the copper after border expansion. 2:science: initially, 2:science: more with a road connecting the river.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6518/5dot1lt.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5dot1lt.jpg)


Where does the road need to go?

Does the lake not conenct the capital to the other city? or No because we don't have fishing?

I never considered needing Fishing! :eek: That would be a good thing to test.

Red Dot is not on the river, but it can be connected with a road SW. We probably won't get a road up in time for CoL if we build our second city there.

Thanks, That was dumb of me I was reading the +2 :science: +2 :science: after for the yellow dot not realizing it applies to the red one :mischief:

I think we are ok with the fishing because it is in our cultural borders :goodjob: (there was this issue in a GOTM I remeber testing)

DaveMcW were lookign at a CoL slingshot or a CS Slingshot?

Because the CoL one is very doable very early

It is just gettign the CS is a bit trickier (meaning it can be done but in the 1400 B.C. Range not the 1600B.C. Range)
This involves more risk but more reward.

Personally I think it is worth trying and as long as our domestic intelligence keeps ups we shoudl notice a big jump in production if king kong goes for it:)

Hi,

I really doubt a CS slingshot can be done when playing against humans. The only chance I see is that all teams outthink themselves by saying "surely the industrious teams will attempt to build the Oracle so we don't need to bother trying ourselves". But if there's a team with marble, they will try it, I guess. And I find it hard to believe they will try to delay the Oracle to get CS themselves.

Of course if we do manage to get CS, the reward would be enormous! But if we fail, the penalty would be harsh too.

Yeah, I guess if our fantastic intelligence agency can deduce the level of production from our opponents, we can try it. But if there's any doubt, I'd prefer going the safe route.

-Kylearan

I Guess the otehr thing to look at is:

Do we plan to send out settler out undefended? :eek:

Because currently the warrior that will be built will be need to keep the peace in the capital (or else we lose a citizen due to :mad: )

If we do want an escort then we have 2 options

1. After the Library build Warrior ==> Warrior ==> Settler Oracle

So the second warrior can get a jump as to not slow down the settler moving.

2. Bring back Dark Puma

Because Research is behind on the CS slingshot, I propose option 1 so we can continue to scout with 2 units.

As well if we were thinking about not having an escort: Because our Borders will expand it is not that risky:

If you look at the picture below it take 3 turns to get to our proposed city site:

However only at the end are we out fo our cultural radius. Even the mvoe into the forest will mostly be shown as we get + 1 sight from our borders :)

Ok I have done the numbers again

The fastest we can get a CS slingshot is in 1280B.C. :eek:

But the positive of this is we really don't invest that much until the 5 turns prior to it being built :goodjob:

In all acutality we run very low production at first and then max it for 5 turns with a chop so we get +130 :hammers: in 2 turns :eek: :crazyeye:

The benefit of this is we are still getting GS points while building the oracle so if antother civ builds it in the 1600, 1500,1400 all we have invested is a handful of hammers :)

With this scheme we will also have an academy built in 1120 B.C. :cool:


So I guess other options would be if we think this date is too late
Same build order but grab Metal Casting with the Oracle? which can be done in 1680 B.C. and then get an Academy in 1200 B.C.

Metal Casting is definitely an option. We would still be first to CoL without using scientists, because no one else could steal it with the oracle. After 50 turns (less if we build a priest or stonehenge) we would pop a great prophet who could discover Civil Service.

We could cut 4-5 turns off our CoL date by skipping the settler. This would really hurt if we fail, but it's a worthwhile sacrifice if it wins us the CS slingshot.

And finally, 1280BC is not a bad Oracle date. A non-industrious civ would have to put a lot of effort into completing a 1280BC CoL slingshot. We have to worry about India doing the Metal Casting slingshot, but they have plenty of other choices too. Having a 2nd city and Bureaucracy is a nice goal, and maybe worth the risk.

Hi,

I'm strongly against sending out the settler unescorted. While Chances are that we would manage to found our second city without getting intercepted by barbs, but then we run the risk of losing the city against attacks.

If we can build a second warrior because we have to wait for our CoL research to complete anyway, then I'd say let's do that. Otherwise, just withdraw one scout. Running one risky operation (Oracle) is enough for my taste, no sense in trying two major gambits at once... :eek:


Regarding what slingshot to attempt, of course I agree that a 1280BC date is fine for a CS slingshot and would be very powerful indeed. However, I still find it hard to imagine that other civs will try the same slingshot if they decide to go for the oracle as well. Chances are that they have cowards like me in the team who urge them to go for a faster and thus safer slingshot, and then we're screwed... ;) But if Memphus says we won't have to invest much until about five turns prior to completing the wonder, then by all means do it.

EDIT: I just took a look at Sulla's MP reports, because I've never played MP and thus have no idea when humans usually built the oracle, or what they take with it. In most of his reports, the oracle builder took Metal Casting with it. Now granted, all these were team MP games so they can't really be compared to our situation, but still.
Oh, and the one time he took CS with it, he completed the wonder in 1980BC...

-Kylearan

I'm still working on the turn-by-turn score analysis of the other teams for the Foreign Ministry… it's a bigger project than I expected. Hopefully, when that's done, it will shed some light on what the other teams are doing – and might help us make the best choice regarding what to pursue with the Oracle.

Kylearan makes some great points, as always, but I'm wondering if it's possible we're giving team loco too much credit?
Now – I don't want to make the mistake of underestimating our enemies… but I was looking at the roster of team Loco players…

Team Loco: [17]
RoboPig
koondrad
Emp. Killyouall
xyourxmomxcorex
I am the Future
Dux_
gakkun
ranathari
aephelan
jeejeep
Karl Townsend
Jamppa
potatokiosk
joyodongo
King Flevance
Illini Rule
jojon

I don't recognize any of them from any hall-of-fame lists or remember reading any strategy tips from them (not that this necessarily means they aren't good!) But Koondrad has been their leader for a while now, and if you look at his posts, he seems to almost exclusively deal in the "fluff" threads that are just for fun.

Click here to see Koondrad's posts: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/search.php?searchid=105087)

Now – I'm making a bit of a leap here – but in my limited MP experience with Civ4, it's only the experienced players that make a real bid for the Oracle. The less experienced players (like myself) tend to spend their time on other early wonders. Just based on Loco/Gandhi's team list, and what I've gathered on their turnplayer/leader Koondrad, I'm wondering if it's a fair guess to think they won't even be making a bid for the Oracle?
I guess we won't know for sure until we see that Loco has completed Stonehenge or the Pyramids or the Parthenon or something.

Am I making a big mistake? Does someone recognize a name on the Loco team list or know more about Koondrad than I do?

Oh yeah, and I'll be really hesitant to send out an undefended Settler also. At the least, I think we should bring back our closest scout to guard the new city.

Hi,

maybe you're right and I'm too cautious about the Oracle. I tend to try to play safe in settings/environments I don't know, and I really should be more bold in these cases and try more gambits. So yeah, you have my vote for trying the CS slingshot; the cost if we fail to make it won't be that high (some lost hammers converted into gold; lost time; maybe non-optimal research path).

-Kylearan

P.S.: Great Epsilon CIA thread, by the way! :goodjob:

King Flevance might prompt them to do it, sometimes he'll give stratagy hints in the general discussion.

There's a lion blocking Shadow Tiger's path. Should he attack or defend next turn?

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/718/civ4screenshot01603wf.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot01603wf.jpg)

Dave didn't mention this in his update, so I want to make sure everyone is aware... there is another Lion just south of Epsilon Eridani! :wow:

He's 4 tiles south, 2 tiles east of our capital.

I don't know if that needs to change our planned build time on the warrior - but it's worth talking about!

:salute:

He can't go into tiles owned by us so I don't think that it is much of a problem.

Edit: When looking at the save I did notice that the city is at its happyness limit. Does that mean that we should be working a forest or other hammer rich tiles?

Here is Shadow Tiger, I really don't see a benefit to attacking the lion, besides for the movement that would be lost otherwise. but with a 24% chance that he will die, I think that it would be best if we used the terrain bonus to our advantage. (or is there a bonus from plains?) We will get the needed xp for the next level what ever we do, so there isn't as much advantage to attacking in that regard also.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9571/what0ou.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The plains won't help Shadow Tiger much, I suggest attack

Our Happiness limit as well as our helth limit has been taken into account

We grow, hook up rice and build a warrior in the same turn pushing the envelope to 6 and 6 ;)

I will g ive detaield report of how this will be doen once I am back from my honey ;) moon

I suggest we fortify. What do we gain by attacking? We gain one extra space. But if we lose, we can't move forward at all. So I vote we fortify and we'll have a better chance. Because the one space isn't worth the risk of losing Shadow Tiger.

For what it's worth, I vote we fortify also.

If we fortify and the lion attacks we gain the 5% bonus already?

The 5% bonus really won't change much.

Either we attack or we start to retreat to the jungle for the 50% bonus

I say Atack but I play a higher risk game. In this case the ebst chocie may be to run away to the jungle.

But if the census is to fortify for the +5% then we might as well attack :)

Hi,

I think with our already risky play that we cannot really afford to lose the warrior, so I vote for retreating to the nearest forest/jungle, if there is one near that is. If not, let's retreat until the lion does not follow us so we can heal at least. It would be a shame if we delay making contacts for a thousand years just because we lost our warrior to an animal...

-Kylearan

I agree. While I hate to lose the turn by moving backwards, it is more important to keep Shadow Tiger alive.

Let's move to the jungle and fortify.

Alright, We move to the jungle and fortify then if that is the concesus,

I won't be able to play for ~6 more hours. The last 2 posts in the Instruction Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4179577#post4179577) are easy to follow if anyone wants to play sooner.

Turn 39 - 2440BC

Now that Shadow Tiger is fully healed, what's the plan for getting past the lion?

Wait a few turns to build up a defense bonus and hope it attacks? Charge through at 78.7% odds?

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2903/civ4screenshot01717hr.th.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot01717hr.jpg)

My preference is to wait a turn or two and hope lion comes to us. It would be catastrophic to lose Shadow Tiger at this point.

80%? I don't know I would say just go for it, I mean yes it would eb bad if we lost, but at the same time sitting and doing nothing for 3...4...5..6 turns waiting for the lion is no good either. If we win (odds are in our favor) then we get a promotion and can continue on. If if we fortify for a couple of turns we really arn't increasing our odds that significantly.

I'm not suggesting waiting for any more that 1 or 2 turns. I don't see 80% as great odds.

It's only 1 in 5. I'd rather see 1 in 10. But that's just me :)

The problem though is that if we hesiate we will lose huts to another civ (if connected), huts that could cut several turns off researching techs, whether through actual techs, or through money that will enable us to go at 100% science several turns longer. The benefit to waiting is going down as we wait. Yes, we have all lost 80%, 95% (even a 99.3% I think once for me) battles, but how often does that really happen? Not enough to risk the benefits of pushing foreward now, especially with a promotion as soon as we win.

If we're taking a poll – I vote to attack.

But I tend to be pretty aggressive with the barbarians/animals. Maybe it's just ego, but something just galls me about letting some wild animals or mangy haired barbarians stand in the way of Civilization's march.

I'm sure that careful and thoughtful risk/reward analysis would reveal that before we wager ½ our current military and the total of our southern-exploration force on speeding up our movement south, we'd probably want odds closer to what peter is advocating (1 in 10)

Then again – our odds don't improve quite that much just by fortifying and waiting (I don't believe) – to which the brash among us respond, "Seize the day! Grasp destiny with your own two hands… if we fail, so be it. We have failed attempting glorious things and will not live a life of regret and what ifs" :)

The problem is there is just not that much we can do to raise the odds, only fortify in place, or waste a large amount of turns running for jungle/forest, with the danger that the lion won't follow and will just sit there, and so waste our time again.

Shadow Tiger fought the lion and lived!

He is at 0.6/2:strength:, so we should promote him next turn for the free healing. Should he get Woodsman, Combat, or City Raider?

I think I vote Woodsman, if I understand correctly that we will get a movement bonus for woods (doesn't the other warrior hold this promotion as well?). We should be approaching the end of the land bridge, if that is indeed what it is, and will soon want to begin exploring the next land mass as fast as possible.

I don't think we'll be raiding any cities soon.

The combat bonus would be my second choice.

I agree, go with the woodsman promotion, although remember that the combat promotion is a bridge to other (better) promotions like anti-archer (cover) and anti-infantry.

Keep in mind this is his first promotion won't make him move any faster
He would need to get 3 more exp and Woodsman 2 for that.

But Seeing as he will likely end up becoming a Barabrian Defense fortified on a hill with a forest I also vote for Woodsman 1

Yes, but we should be heading into forest (hopefully), where the defense bonus will work for us very well.

Remember that combat 1 is +10% strength, which would mean that the warrior had a total of 2.2. How much real difference will that make? Not enough to justify the use of a promotion in my view.