Who-1 Tom Tom Club bangs a drum was a big hit last summer. It was a bizarre variant where we won by domination on Emperor even with automated workers and city governors on. Renata had one turnset where she had 4 MGL's. Needless to say we didn't need no stinkin' workers or governors to win that one.

Tom Tom Club will now give a chance for chieftain to monarch players to come together in a training game, bang a drum and build a party lounge.

My co-trainers and I will be providing tons of assistance, tips, turn reviews and help to move you guys along to your goal of a space shot. I chose a space shot since it takes you through all of the ages, requires the most attention to detail and is the only victory that includes a party lounge for our drummers. :D

My other goal is to provide some material for gmaharriet who is constructing some illustrations for newer players so lots of pictures will help.

The game will be on Emperor because the AI will force your hand on diplomacy and trading effectively.

This game is not about speed. Sign ups should be aware that SGs normally take a couple months to complete and this one will probably take longer with all the discussions and summertime upon us (at least in the northern hemisphere). If you don’t have this kind of time or commitment, don’t sign up. If you're a chieftian/warlord player and afraid of signing up for a emperor game, don't be. I'm very confident in our success.

We’ll be using the format:

Pre-turn strategizing/suggestions
A trainee will take their turn (20 for the opening start and 10 thereafter. When we reach the IA we will take 5 turns apiece)
Trainees will post a detailed turn log plus a save when they've finished their turns as well as right before they consumate any trades (for trainer evaluation purposes)
Trainers will chime in with a critiques of the turns (changes he could have made, suggestions for next time, ideas for the next player, etc) and possibly where they can shadow your turns.
then we go on to discuss the next turn. Rinse and repeat.


The only variant is there will be no great wonders built unless the trainees can make a case for why it is so important for their space shot.

Civ choice is open but my preference is no scientific, religious or militaristic civs for their cheap buildings and industrious for lazy worker task play. I am open to the other civs and their traits. One caveat... I would consider the Americans since their trait combination and UU take away many of the crutches monarch and below players ordinarily lean on.

Here are some of the details I'd like to use regarding the map.
This game is C3C
Size:Standard
Landmass: Continents, 60% water
Age: 5 billion years old
Climate wet
Temperature: Temperate
AI civs: Random but cultural locations off
Barbs: Roaming

If you don't have mapstat or CAII you should download one these in the utility section before play.
Standard LK rules and exploits will apply.
The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Abuse Tactics - Denying resources, blocking key tiles, RoP rape, or other ways to screw-up a civ via the RoP. A scout in AI territory has an explicit RoP and is subject to this rule.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

Resource abuse - You can't disconnect / reconnect a resource every turn for the sake of building cheap units to upgrade with excess cash.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship in the same square not using any movement, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a large amount of troops to another landmass.

Worker baiting - You can't spread around and sacrifice workers to an oncoming attack. This is often done to avoid losing real units or cities. This takes advantage of the AI failure to prioritize targets.


Standard LK house rules:

2) Worker blockades are prohibited. This prevents things such as fortifying workers along the coast to stop invasions, blocking troops from going through your territory with workers, etc. Workers activity doing something along the coast is fine. The workers must be actively doing something.

3) You may not declare war on a civ if you are currently shipping cash and / or goods to the civ.

4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.

5) Our reputation is golden - please respect it.

6) Self-research is highly preferred, if it is viable. I would rather invest money in beakers to toward science, then waste it on demands. Minimum research is discouraged unless we have no viable alternatives. This may happen at times such as going for republic early on, or late game to insure we get nationalism.

7) As you probably know barbs are screwed up in C3C. It is preferred that you add the following line to your Civ3 .ini file - noAIpatrol=0. Adding "noAIpatrol=0" to the .ini file turns the annoying patrolling back on for the AIs, but also restores movement to the barbarians.

Once we get our roster set I’ll post more details.
Current roster:
Bucephalus
CommandoBob
goodsmell
Ansar the king frog
Vind2
Smart
Theryman


Bring a drum...here's mine...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/orchestore1_1844_608376.gif

Is this vanilla, PTW, or C3C? I can play PTW and vanilla (I think I can play vanilla anyway, I've never tried).

The Inquisitive Idiot wants to be a better drummer!

If response is heavy, make me an alternate, since I am also in Bede's current training game.

Edit: I tend to let the game select the civ. Why not do the same here, just redo if the random civ has an undesirable trait?

Whomp, I thought I had a picture of "The Drum of Victory", from the Day of The Destroyer. I could not find it, not even on the web. I would have posted it so someone could use it.

@jclast--my preference is C3C since that's what I play almost exclusively.
@CommandoBob-- you're in. If we have 6 or 7 players that will work fine. Please find a drum.
@vmxa--hehe. Stick around I'd like you to help train. :D

If it's C3C, I'll lurk. :)

@ Cody and jclast :sad:
How can we get you guys to spend a few bucks to get C3C?
I thought I heard you could find it for $10 somewhere. :(

I chose a battle drum; wretched are the peacemakers.

@ Cody and jclast :sad:
How can we get you guys to spend a few bucks to get C3C?
I thought I heard you could find it for $10 somewhere. :(

Yeah save the worn out C3 and PTW disk and switch to C3C.

:devil:



Just saw the Whomp's "location" :rotfl: I'll be watching this one with interest.

Might I suggest England on a wet temperate map?

:devil:



Just saw the Whomp's "location" :rotfl: I'll be watching this one with interest.

:blush: Dang. AK and I were in Scout's humidor for a week without him noticing. :D
We will have to move to another location. :D

Might I suggest England on a wet temperate map?
I like them as well. The English become so strong mid to late game. It could make for a monster finish.

Permission to lurk and offer un-needed advice, sir? :salute:

Actually, some might say I could use an Emperor training game.

I shall sign up! I am ready to become a Emperor-class idiot! :salute: :rockon:

Liz sounds good to me. We need to decide settings...:p

This reminds me of Grumpy Old Men with their Lucky Candle to light the way...:old:

Oh, I'm already emporer...
GL though :)

I shall sign up! I am ready to become a Emperor-class idiot!Sweet. I dig the king.
Oh, I'm already emporer...
GL though :)
GL to you too then Mister! Does GL mean a sign up? :D

I'd love to join if there is still room :)

I'd love to join if there is still room :)
Vind you are in'd. If GL means a join up we need to start working towards a party lounge.

http://www.victoryenergyinc.com/Photoshop%20Ancillary%20Gallery/images/drum.jpg

Wrong kinda drum? Ah well, we'll need some of these for the spaceship, too.

Vind you are in'd. If GL means a join up we need to start working towards a party lounge.
GL means good luck, btw.

GL means good luck, btw.
Ah gotcha...old guy here. I just learned "meh" and "woot" so bear with me.
Welcome aboard Theryman. Killer drum. :goodjob:

OK we have our space cadets and Ansar said he wants England. How about the rest of you? I'll roll starts tomorrow.

Well then, btw means by the way. Let's hope you are Canadian, because I use 'eh' a lot. But do not worry, ! \/\/1|| |/-\-/ ()ff -|-3|-| |33-|- §|03/-\|<.

Anyways, England is seafaring and what? Agri?

Also, do you recommend CivAssist or CivAssist2? Which is more convenient?

Found my drum, American Civil War:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/Drum_small.jpg

Edit: Added this analysis:
Civ choice is open but my preference is no scientific, religious or militaristic civs for their cheap buildings and industrious for lazy worker task play. I am open to the other civs and their traits. One caveat... I would consider the Americans since their trait combination and UU take away many of the crutches monarch and below players ordinarily lean on.

Which leaves:

America (maybe): Industrious, Expansionist; F-15; Modern GA
England: Seafaring, Commercial; Man-o-War; Middle / Industrial GA
Hittites: Commercial, Expansionist; 3-Man Chariot; Ancient GA
Incans: Agricultural, Expansionist; Chasqui Scout; Ancient GA
Iroquois: Commercial, Agricultural; Mounted Warrior; Ancient GA
Netherlands: Seafaring, Agricultural; Swiss Mercenary; Middle GA
Portugal: Seafaring, Expansionist; Carrack, Middle GA


I don’t think we want our Golden Age in the Ancient Times (rather, I don’t want our Golden Age then since it is generally wasted) and that would eliminate three civs, leaving us with these four to really consider:


America (maybe): Industrious, Expansionist; F-15; Modern GA
England: Seafaring, Commercial; Man-o-War; Middle / Industrial GA
Netherlands: Seafaring, Agricultural; Swiss Mercenary; Middle GA
Portugal: Seafaring, Expansionist; Carrack, Middle GA


I am going to assume that everyone has played America before. For us, a bad UU, but no cheap buildings, just faster workers. We have a wet climate, so faster workers would be helpful when we road/chop jungles and marshes.

Of the other three, all are Seafaring; no obvious advantage to any of them. England is commercial, but needs cities over size 6 (IIRC) before that trait kicks in. The Dutch get extra food and reduced granary costs; that and seafaring could lead to an explosive early land grab. Their UU is a Super-Pike and if it triggered a Golden Age it would be at a time the Dutch would have enough cities to really take advantage of it. Portugal gets a scout and therefore friendly barbarians, which could mean early tech trading advantage.

Just for me, I lean towards the Dutch. I just got C3C and have not played using these Civ traits, so that appeals to me. We would have to watch our worker moves more carefully than if we were the Yanks, but we will need to do that anyway.

Anyways, England is seafaring and what? Agri?

Also, do you recommend CivAssist or CivAssist2? Which is more convenient?
I'd use civassist II or Crpsuite. They are both great utilities btw. England is seafaring and commercial.

Just for me, I lean towards the Dutch. I just got C3C and have not played using these Civ traits, so that appeals to me. We would have to watch our worker moves more carefully than if we were the Yanks, but we will need to do that anyway.Nice choice. The Dutch traits mix well IMO and their UU is a cheap musket.

Also, do you recommend CivAssist or CivAssist2? Which is more convenient?
I use CrpSuite (MapStat) during the game because its information is easier to navigate and read, during a game, than CivAssistII, at least for me. MapStat is a small spreadsheet that is plain, unfussy and very useful. It aslo does not use a lot of system resources.

I use CAII for non-playing time analysis. It has more 'what-if' tools than MapStat. It has a prettier interface than MapStat. It needs more system resources than MapStat, which is why I don't use it during a game.

Really, the best thing to do is to download both and game with them both. I have an older system (PII, 500 MHz, 128 RAM) so that affects how I rate the two tools.

I'm in ! I just was'nt home @ friday

From my own games, I'd say that the Dutch are too powerful for a good teaching game. Agri plus early contacts plus awesome uu plus (let's not forget) prime start techs (one for early accelerated growth, one for trade or a prime research path). Just a thought.

I could win any day with a AGR civ.., lets try Liz. I have never used the Man-O-Wars.:devil: :cool:

I prefer to start with England , I never tried to play as England after the 3rd Era .
and I think SimpleMoney right , so we won't choose the Dutch .

I think we also can try with America , we'll have our F-15 only at Modern Ages , but our workers will road / chop /mine faster . I think it's a great advantage .

England for me too.

OK England it is. I agree the Dutch should be used for your first deity victory. ;) Be back in a little bit with some starts to discuss.

OK here are the pictures. Discuss and I will load the save you decide to use.

I'd like to hear some thought going into tech strategy and early worker tasks. Bucephalus will lead us off because he did a nice job in another attempt at a training game and I feel he deserves the opportunity to lead you off. As well, I'd like to break Bucephalus and goodsmell up, rosterwise, since they are in a European timezone.

Tom Tom Club 1
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4715/england17sp.jpg

Tom Tom Club 2

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/764/england27lo.jpg

Tom Tom Club 3

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8865/english34jx.jpg

Tom Tom Club 4

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5194/england41du.jpg

Comments from the "Frog Extraordinaire":

Tom Tom Club 1

+Cow
+Freshwater(River!:drool:)
+couple BG's
+plenty of forests to chop :hammer:

-not that much shield production
-just looks like grasslands...(without BG's)

TTC2

+luxury(spices) :D
+Freshwater(river!:drool:)
+Cow
+forests to chop
+nice terrain variation(plains and grasslands)

-the mountain and the hill are both not in 21-tile reach
-we may not have enough food...

TTC3

+Cow
+Freshwater(lake...)
+BG's

-not enough shields
-doesent look like mountains nearby
-no extra(extra) commerce from rivers
-no choppables for quick stuff

TTC4

+Cow
+Freshwater(river!:drool:)
+BG's
+a hill and mountains :hammers:

-no choppables for quick stuff
-could have lots of mountains

I personally like TTC2 and TTC4. Nice map RNG, Whomp!:rockon: :thumbsup:

I think we will choose one of the 1st starts .
the 2nd start is pretty nice , Cow , river plus luxury :) :)

and as Whomp said , forest to chop .
on the 1st start with BG , forest , cow . everywhere we start along the Coast , I think that's good we'll can send Curragh to meet someone nice :)

Bucephalus will lead us off because he did a nice job in another attempt at a training game and I feel he deserves the opportunity to lead you off.

Right...... No pressure then.

Starts 1 & 4 look best to me.

TT4 wins out over TT2 if it were me. I'm comparing where you are in the world map. Okay, I'll be quiet now.

I also like starts two and four. I would join this but I have the won't read disc error for conquests (for those of you that don't know, this bug appears after downloading a patch and it prevents you from playing the game-does anyone know how to uninstall the 1.22 patch? I really want to play C3C again, even if it's at the 1.00 patch :( )

Easy Growth
TTC 1 - river - good
TTC 2 - river - good
TTC 3 - no river - bad
TTC 4 - river - good

Eliminate TTC 3 since it lacks a river. It does have 3 BG's, which would be nice. We can find BGs later.

Resources in the Initial 9 Tiles
TTC 1 - Cow, BG, 3 Forests
TTC 2 - Cow, Spice (?) in Forest, 3 Forests
TTC 4 - Cow, 3 BGs (one covered by initial placement)

Wildcards in the Inital 9 Tiles
TTC 1 - none
TTC 2 - goody hut adjacent to start
TTC 4 - goody hut adjacent to start

World Map Placement
TTC 1 - SE Corner of the world map, facing the SW. Coast line to the NW may turn back to the NE. Coast to the S will have to break back to the E shortly to avoid the South Pole.
TTC 2 - SE Corner of the world map, facing SE. Looks like we are on the corner of some sea. Coastlines both E and S look to contine for some time before they change directions.
TTC 4 - Northern middle section of the world map, facing E. We are in a cove of some sort. Coastline to the N appears to come to a point in the fog and then break back to the NW. Coastline to the E appears to gently slope to the SE.

Capital City Placement
TTC 1 - Right where we are.
TTC 2 - Sort of stuck here, in order to be on the coast and have access to the river to grow. But building here, we pop the goody hut. It could have barb warriors. We would have the river as a defensive bonus, but the barbs could get lucky, defeat our warrior and then sack or destroy our city (not sure which).
TTC 4 - Need to move SE to build. If we build where we stand, we negate the BG bonus. If we move SE, we get it back because our city tile always produces one shield, regardless of what terrain it is on. If we move SE we gain one shield and can still use the BG where we stand now. Also, moving SE moves us away from the goody hut. It will be popped in ten turns on our first cultural expansion. By that time we could have a second warrior built to handle any barb units in the hut. Unlike TTC 2, here we have no river between us and the hut. However, by moving SE, the cow is no longer in our initial nine tiles.

Start Preference
TTC 2 is a bad place to start because the first few turns could be very bad for us. It all depends on what is in the hut. Too risky for my blood.
TTC 4 is much better, but early turns are still focused on dealing with the nearby goody hut.
I prefer TTC 1 since it lacks any goody huts. No distractions. Here we could focus on what we should do and not have to worry or plan for what the goody hut could do to us.

Good analysis so far.
But building here, we pop the goody hut. It could have barb warriorsThis is one of the few times you won't pop barbs. When a city border expands over a goody hut no barbs pop. You may get nothing, maybe maps but sometimes you get goodies. When placing cities in the future this can be a benefit and should be somewhat of a consideration when placing cities. It also works when you're two tiles away and cultural borders expand.

Let me add to this...if you get a tech it will always be in the AA only and the cheapest tech by beaker cost. It won't give you a tech you have or a tech you are researching.


You have alpha and pottery so what would the tech be that you'd get?
Let's say you're about to place a city and you've just started researched something. Strategically, is there a tech should you set your research on?


Gmaharriet will give cookies to the person who answers these correctly. :D

Let's finalize your start choices. It's fine to discuss amongst yourselves but I'd like to give you a save.

Good analysis so far.
This is one of the few times you won't pop barbs. When a city border expands over a goody hut no barbs pop. You may get nothing, maybe maps but sometimes you get goodies. When placing cities in the future this can be a benefit and should be somewhat of a consideration when placing cities. It also works when you're two tiles away and cultural borders expand.

Let me add to this...if you get a tech it will always be in the AA only and the cheapest tech by beaker cost. It won't give you a tech you have or a tech you are researching.


You have alpha and pottery so what would the tech be that you'd get?
Let's say you're about to place a city and you've just started researched something. Strategically, is there a tech should you set your research on?


Gmaharriet will give cookies to the person who answers these correctly. :D

Let's finalize your start choices. It's fine to discuss amongst yourselves but I'd like to give you a save.

1) Ceremonal Burial
2) Ceremonal Burial

Yes on number one but on number two yes but why?

Why CB: because then it will give you a different tech. CB and Pottery are the cheapest techs, so you would get them first. But you start with Pottery and are researching CB, so it will move up- to the 3rd-cheapest AA tech: Bronze Working.

Yes on number one but on number two yes but why?

As it's the cheapest it is the one that is least beneficial to receive for free. You stated that you can't receive something that you are researching; if we are researching CB we will be granted another, more expensive tech.

As it's the cheapest it is the one that is least beneficial to receive for free. You stated that you can't receive something that you are researching; if we are researching CB we will be granted another, more expensive tech.
Cookies for you!!!

Same would be true later.
If you plant a city while starting new research. Set research to the cheapest tech and switch back to what you really wanted to research after the village pops (unless you get the tech you wanted) :D

These are all pretty good starts, but I like number 2 the best. Here's why:
TTC1: A cow and chops, along with a river and some BG's could mean a strong early game, with good food.
TTC3: No river, so we will not be able to fully utilize the wheat. Throw that out.
TTC4: Cows and mountain and a river and a goody hut! You gotta be kidding me! Great for the late game SS parts production.

TTC2, though, is best, I think. For one, it has chops, a cow, a goody hut, and a lux. Since we are playing on a highr level, that spice could come in handy. Also, there is minimal ocean tiles, and with good city placement, we could get some good SS parts out of Ring 1 cities.
Early, though, could be a problem, because food might be in short supply. My vote for 2, though.

Spamming to subsribe... and glad to offer advice if it's wanted. :D

@Whomp -- It's my understanding that barbs won't pop so long as you don't have any military, but that you can still get them on border expansion otherwise. I've had the latter happen when I neglected to garrison a distant island obtained in a peace treaty. I was in the modern age and it still had a goodie hut outside culture borders. I can't imagine why I built a cheap culture building there, probably to snag a food bonus, but I did and popped the hut. Very embarassing to have barbs loot a city when you have bombers and nukes. :blush:

Anyway, you won't get barbs in the two maps you have here where the huts will insta-pop.

I might suggest another tech to set sights on once the hut pops and the free tech issue resolves. It's one of my favorites and a good reason to go with seafaring or commercial.

Monkey--that is not the way I understand it according to DocT during SGOTM8 I think it was. Barb camps and goodie huts being two different things. It is also only in the AA that this works. Maybe someone can confirm.

I'm going to play civ 3 again, and looking for interesting SG. I would like to join this if there are still any open slots. At this time, training game will be also nice for me :crazyeye:

My drum and battle stuff is ready!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SmartDrum.gif

Good analysis so far.
But building here, we pop the goody hut. It could have barb warriors
This is one of the few times you won't pop barbs. When a city border expands over a goody hut no barbs pop. You may get nothing, maybe maps but sometimes you get goodies. When placing cities in the future this can be a benefit and should be somewhat of a consideration when placing cities. It also works when you're two tiles away and cultural borders expand.

Well, that changes things around, and in a good way. :)

With no guys in white underwear springing up from the ground to attack us, I agree with Theryman that TTC 2 is best. It's best feature: a luxury close enough to touch. At Emperor, we get one and only one content citizen per city. All others are born grumpy. This luxury is only 6 WTs away.

In this case, with the goody hut able to give us a free tech when we build Capital City (London or Whompdon or Tom Tom City or something else) can we begin to research anything before we build our first city?

@Theryman: I like TTC2 too, but the map position is blech.:vomit:

I guess we can stick with TTC4, it was my second choice.:D :p

Map position is good, but it should never judge your starting location. Given a good start, we can get an early lead, and maybe boost out ahead.

I may be wrong, though.

This helped me to focus:

Ancient Times Tech Chart
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/PreStart_ScienceAdvisorTrimmed.jpg

This is from an English C3C start up. Alphabet and Pottery are our starting techs and are high lighted in blue by the game. Each of the leftmost techs are starting techs for the other civ traits, with The Wheel and Warrior Code being shared by militarist civs, they will get one or the other but not both.

Which means that we can most likely get the leftmost techs by trading.

So what should we research?

Pottery leads to Map Making, but MM needs Writing, which requires Alphabet, and this we already know. We need to research Writing in order to learn something tradable.

What to research after Writing will depend on the game situation. Some things to keep in mind, since we have not discussed them, are:

We want to get out of Despotism as soon as we can. In this age that means either Monarchy or Republic.
We need to be a learned civilization and will need libraries to get smarter faster (even with tech trading).
Philosophy grants a free tech to the first civ to learn it.


I think that by learning Writing we will able to trade it for most of the leftmost techs.

Gmaharriet will give cookies to the person who answers these correctly. :D
Bucephalus, Good thinking. :thumbsup: Here's enough cookies to share with the rest of the team. :D

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/180352/chocolate-chip-cookies.jpg

Well I absolutely agree with CommandoBob , I think we should research writing right then Philosophy to have a free tech , and we'll try to choose tech that the AI's does'nt have .
it will be great if they'll have some good tech to give us for our free tech .

we can also try to research COL first , then Philosophy and choose The Republic for free tech . with this way we'll meet new goverement early in the game .
I believe that if we'll research Writing before that AI will , we'll have their techs by a good deal with'em .

We've the Alphabet , We build city along the Coast , we can build Curragh .
if we'll successfuly meet AI`s from other continents , our chances will be much higher for tech benefits ( at least I think so .)

Bucephalus, Good thinking. :thumbsup: Here's enough cookies to share with the rest of the team. :D

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/180352/chocolate-chip-cookies.jpg


Thank you, gma harriet. Tuck in guys!

Are we going to get the Glib? Or are we gonna rely entirely on trading to get the techs we need?

I would suggest trading, since this is emperor level. At higher levels, good trading skills is a must.:scan:

Smart you are welcome to join this team.
OK here's the save.
Try to be detailed in your logs especially for worker tasks. The worker is important in your attempt at philo but working the commerce fields. Are you going to move the settler?

Roster: I tried to split it up for timezones.
Bucephalus up
CommandoBob
goodsmell
Ansar the king frog
Vind2
Smart
Theryman


http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1664/england47sd.jpg

:devil:

anybody stick a tongue in the water to test for salt?

Are we going to get the Glib? Or are we gonna rely entirely on trading to get the techs we need?
There's no way you can convince me the Glib will help you towards a space shot. I can think of wonders that will but they will come much later in the game.

Since Bede just posted it reminded me to put up a decision tree he and Rik Meleet did in a training game I played in. Before any trades trades are consumated I'd like you to turn through these questions. If you decide to make a trade(s) then save the game before so we can look at it for evaluation purposes.


The decision making process:

Can I afford it?
Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.

--When structuring a trade: Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end for the possibility of a 3 or 4 fer and a profitable trade.
--Do you need it right away or could it wait? Dead end techs are many times not useful.

Are you going to move the settler?
I think there is only one place - SE, because other tiles have BG or are away from river or coast.
And what to do with hut if we move settler. I forgot how it works, but if there is the chance to get barbs (we will have military unit when borders will be expanded), would be better to waste worker turn and pop the hut immediatly.
Other question - what to do with philosophy free tech? If we aren't going for slingshot, there are two paths - get code of laws and research republic, or take literature and build libs, also to get republic faster.

@Whomp: I've just run a quick test scenario where I didn't settle, instead just went around popping goody huts with my settler & worker.
The results - in order - are as follows:

1) 25 gold
2) WC
3) CB
4) Myst
5) Masonry
6) Wheel
7) 25 gold
8) HBR
9) Map
10) Alphabet
11) Map
12) 25 gold
13) 25 gold
14) Writing
15) Map
16) Lit.
17) 25 gold

This doesn't seem to fit the model you discussed.

Smart you are welcome to join this team.
OK here's the save.
Try to be detailed in your logs especially for worker tasks. The worker is important in your attempt at philo but working the commerce fields. Are you going to move the settler?

Roster: I tried to split it up for timezones.
Bucephalus up
CommandoBob
goodsmell
Ansar the king frog
Vind2
Smart
Theryman

OK, I've got it.

About the goody huts, here is the quote from Firaxis: quote: It's not really that it's difficult; it's just that it was implemented by an intern . Here are the conditions: Gold: *The tile must not have any type of resource or luxury on it.

Maps: --always available

Nothing: --always available

Settler: *Player must not have a settler (active or in production) or any unit with the Settle AI strategy. *Number of player's cities must be <= (Total_Cities / NumActivePlayers).

Mercenaries (skilled warrior): *There must be a unit available to the Barbarians as well as the player and that unit must be able to be built (or have been built) by some player in the game.

Tech: *Player must still be in Ancient Times.

Barbarians: *Player must not have Expansionist trait. *There must not be a city within a 1-tile radius. *The player must have at least 1 city. *The player must have at least 1 military unit. *The unit popping the hut must not have the "All Terrain As Roads" ability.

Mike Breitkreutz Programmer FIRAXIS Games Last edited by Mike B. FIRAXIS on Aug. 01, 2002 at 09:37 PM end quote.

And another thing I have noticed is that the goody hut, when it does give you a tech, it is almost always the cheapest tech that is available (tech that you aren't blocking). Because I always get Mysticism before Alphabet, and alphabet before Iron Working (if I'm not blocking the prerequisite). The hut will only give you the tech you are researching, if there are no other technologies available.

What program are they using in this screenshot?
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/908/madv93000bc8mv.jpg

What program are they using in this screenshot?

It looks like Civassist II

Yeah, thats alerts for civassit II. Very helpful if yuo ask me :)

@Whomp: There is a problem loading your save; every time I try the game exits.

Edit: Ok, it's loading now.

Nothing: --always available


Actually, I think difficulty level might have a factor here; I've played many Chieftain games and I Never popped nothing from a hut.

Yeah that's CAII in the screenie, VERY useful.

Actually, I think difficulty level might have a factor here; I've played many Chieftain games and I Never popped nothing from a hut.
It appears you are unfamiliar with progam logic. What was stated meant that you can always get nothing. That does not mean you ever will get nothing. It is just of of the choice the routine could select.

On Chief even an expansion civ has a 5% chance to get nothing. My guess is you could have gotten it and never even realized it.

It case you are not aware the info comes from Mike B. he was a one of the big cheeses in making the game. He was relating how the code is written.

OK here's the save.
Try to be detailed in your logs especially for worker tasks. The worker is important in your attempt at philo but working the commerce fields. Are you going to move the settler?

Roster: I tried to split it up for timezones.
Bucephalus up
CommandoBob
goodsmell
Ansar the king frog
Vind2
Smart
Theryman

Bucephalus plays the first twenty turns or we all play the first twenty turns and decide which of those to play from?

@vmxa: once again I am proven wrong. I still don't remember getting nothing from a goody hut on chieftain, but hey, maybe I'm not remembering correctly. But does difficulty level change percentages?

@choxorn: please use the (lurker) tags, so you dont get confused as a player in this SG.:p

I think Buchepalus plays 20, and then the rest play 10.:)

If any questions, team players should stop and ask, this is a training game, and questions are meant to be asked. So if anyone has a doubt or question during their turnset, im sure one of the trainers will answer it.:D

You don't really have to use them in every post, and it didn't really have to do with the game, Ansar.

You don't really have to use them in every post, and it didn't really have to do with the game, Ansar.
It's just a considerate thing to do every time, since many people reading these games don't have to wade through several pages of posts to find out who's a player and who's a lurker. Experienced players use the tags regularly when it's not their game. :)

@vmxa: once again I am proven wrong. I still don't remember getting nothing from a goody hut on chieftain, but hey, maybe I'm not remembering correctly. But does difficulty level change percentages?

Yes it does.

I think Buchepalus plays 20, and then the rest play 10.:)

If any questions, team players should stop and ask, this is a training game, and questions are meant to be asked. So if anyone has a doubt or question during their turnset, im sure one of the trainers will answer it.:D

Well, its not my turnset, but I do have questions.
I know the first turns, out to turn 50 or so, determine a lot of how well the rest of the game goes. This is a weak area for me, so I don't want to rush through this phase.

So I ask:
Did we analyze the early worker turns?
What about this settler factory thingee, does it apply here?
How do we want to divide our income (science.happy.cash) ?
What do we want to build first, warrior or granary or something else?

These are some awesome quesitons:
Did we analyze the early worker turns?
What about this settler factory thingee, does it apply here?
How do we want to divide our income (science.happy.cash) ?
What do we want to build first, warrior or granary or something else?
It rarely helps to build a granary before you've even got a warrior out... on the income... it depends on whether you're running a minimum research gambit, or doing a "hard burn" with a specific goal in mind (like some Philosophy slingshot).

In "minimum research gambits", the goal is to use gold to buy up the other civs' first-tier techs, and sometimes beyond.

The "hard burn" mode is less intuitive. Many times, ratcheting up the science slider has no apparent effect on the due date for the next tech...however, those beakers are accumulating, and often the effect is noted later in the research cycle... like when a city grows and a citizen is placed on a good tile for commerce, or when a town is founded... increasing the size of the economy.

With Alphabet as a starting tech, you have a shot at the "Republic Slingshot". (Writing-->Code of Laws-->Philosophy-->Republic as the Free Tech).

In order to pull it off at Emperor level, the first few players will need to be disciplined. You will need to keep the science slider as high as possible, and micromanage the settlements (except any settler pump) for maximum commerce.

Running minimum research can hone your tech trading skills, going for some sort of Philosophy gambit can hone your early-game management skills.

Either is worth pursuing in a Training Game, IMO.

It's just a considerate thing to do every time, since many people reading these games don't have to wade through several pages of posts to find out who's a player and who's a lurker. Experienced players use the tags regularly when it's not their game. :)
True, but they can just check the roster that should be on the first post to see who is a player. :crazyeye:

So I ask:
Did we analyze the early worker turns?
What about this settler factory thingee, does it apply here?
How do we want to divide our income (science.happy.cash) ?
What do we want to build first, warrior or granary or something else?
As Scout said very good questions and thanks to Scout on the research thing. I don't think some players are aware of the beaker buildup.

I would like to hear early choices for worker turns. Why irrigating or mining occured before a road or vice versa is important to understand.

Settler factories are mighty nice when you can locate 5fpt. You can usually find 6-7 shields.

What to build first? I have my thoughts and would like to hear what the team says.

@Choxorn. Please keep your spam comments to a minimum. If you have game related comments or questions that's fine.

As far as goodie hut probabilities go, perhaps this would help.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/goody[1]1.jpg

As far as disregarding well-intentioned, polite advice goes ...


:hammer2:

I would like to hear early choices for worker turns. <snip>Snipped and quoted out of context for emphasis, and for a reason.Settler factories are mighty nice when you can locate 5fpt. You can usually find 6-7 shields.A little "Socratic Method" here, if the team will be patient with me.

Among resources, what is it that makes food unique?

Among units, what is it that makes the worker unique?

Understanding these questions, their answers, and the implications... can help your game.

Among resources, what is it that makes food unique?
Food production can change. Almost every tile produces food; irrigation can make it produce more; chopping a forest can make it produce more; clearing a jungle can make it produce more; suspect that draining a marsh (this terrain not in PTW) can make it produce more. Food is the only resource with a production output we can change as we want.

Food is also the only way to grow new citizens. Shields and commerce won't do it; only food.

Among units, what is it that makes the worker unique?

The worker is the only unit that can improve any land tile and thus produce more food, which in turn leads to more citizens (happy or not). Military units can pillage and reduce food; settlers can raze a forest or jungle but the food output of the city center tile does not change.

OK team, we're up and running.

After much deliberation, London was founded on the spot. Ordinarily I wouldn't settle on a BG, but consider this: the only other spot which doesn't either lose the cow or the river, is the tile SE. To move there would gain one BG; but we would also gain at least two mountains and a coastal tile set against a loss of three grassland squares (two of which have a chance of being BG) and a hill. It was simply a case of going with the terrain with the most potential. And I was vindicated when upon settling I found that indeed there was a BG tile. So we have 5 BG and a cow; oh yes, almost forgot, we also have Ivory. I moved the worker to the BG on the river to begin a road. Our citizen began working the same tile; London was set to build a warrior, and our scientists ordered to learn Writing - due in 48 at max science.
Oh, and the goody hut gave us CB.

After 5 turns our worker had roaded the BG, and the extra gold brought Writing down to 37. He was moved to the adjacent BG to road that in preparation for the new citizen due in 5. London completed the Warrior (hereafter known as Warrior 1) who began to explore S. Another was commissioned.

On turn 8 Warrior 1 popped a GH and we have a skilled Warrior. I renamed him "The Apprentice", and moved him E. And we met the Mongols. Temuchin was polite, and would have happliy exchanged WC or BW for Alphabet. No deal, Ugly.

After 10 turns London's borders expanded, the population grew, and work on the warrior completed. The new citizen was placed on the second roaded BG, and now Writing was due in 23. Although we have the possibility of a 5 turn settler factory, I don't think that we can at present. We can't commit London to 20 turns or so for a granary with the Mongols on our doorstep ( their borders are just 7 tiles from ours) at least until we have a stronger military. To build any more units will eat in to the science budget unless we have another city to support them, and hopefully build them. I decided to build a Warrior to expose the promising looking lands to the N, in preparation for the following settler.

The next significant event occured on turn 15 - we met the Byzantines, situated to our W/SW. They had just founded their second city (Adrianapole), and for some reason Theo was annoyed. She was however prepared to give us WC+10g for CB. I thought this was good business in view of the forthcoming need for military units; and I applied the rules that Whomp specified Do we need it? Yes. Can we afford it? Yes. Can it be traded profitably? I think the deal helps us more than Theo so by that criteria at least, Yes

Nothing of significance occured until turn 20. London grew, the new citizen (placed on the Ivory) gave 2 more gold, bringing Writing down to 13. Settler due in 1.

Temuchin will now trade BW+10 for Alphabet. It may be worth doing as Temuchin & Theo will meet any time soon, and they will trade for it if we don't

The Mongols are in the SE corner
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/The_known_world.JPG


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/London_city_screen.JPG

And the save?

Okay... I'm not going to critique the opening... I'll leave that to Whomp.

Instead, I'm going to look to the future...and ask each member to answer these questions:


Among resources, what is it that makes food unique? (CommandoBob took a stab at this one... and gave a good answer... but missed one key component I was looking for...)
Among units, what is it that makes the worker unique? (CommandoBob again put down some good stuff... but was missing the part that can lead to an 'epiphany'.)
Given the team's position after the start, it seems clear that the highest priority was placed on commerce...and a "Philosophy Slingshot" of some sort. Given this position, it's time to do a little "Situational Analysis". Unless the build is changed, you'll have a settler next turn. Where would you build your next city for maximum commerce?
What worker moves would you make to continue this high-commerce gambit?
How will you micromanage the citizens in the cities to continue the current gambit?


And this is not a question for training, but a serious, in-game discussion: Is the "Republic Slingshot" feasible? How will you know whether to pursue Code of Laws or Philosophy when you learn Writing?

OK a couple things...

I shadowed the turns and a few things we did differently without being spoilerish.

I was able to build a curragh, 2 warriors, and a settler and will be at pop 3 next turn. Our trading was similar however I popped WC from the goody hut instead of CB since I set research to CB off the bat and got WC free . I then switched to writing afterwards. I located another civ.

The good news is your research rate was significantly better than mine since you chose to work the bgs first whereas I chose to irrigate the cow first for growth. You were at 13 turns and I was at 29. You popped a hut and got another warrior and I was afraid to get barbs in the expansion phase so I avoided it.

Question is whether you could've beat me to philo with pop dropping to 1 with the settler finishing and I would be at pop 3 with a settler on the ground.

Question is whether you could've beat me to philo with pop dropping to 1 with the settler finishing and I would be at pop 3 with a settler on the ground.That is an excellent question...

Perhaps I over-emphasized the bit about the gold... managing for gold is important... but sacrificing growth at this stage of the game is something you need to be careful with.

...and I see another thing that will tempt you to restrict growth in the early game... :devil:

:devil:

Repeat after me "Food, gold, shields". In other words, road and water the cows, then road and mine the riverside bonus grass, road and water the elephant. Citizen assignments to high food, then high commerce, then shields. Simple, no?

And a seafaring nation should always build a boat before anything else.

:devil:

Repeat after me "Food, gold, shields". In other words, road and water the cows, then road and mine the riverside bonus grass, road and water the elephant. Citizen assignments to high food, then high commerce, then shields. Simple, no?

And a seafaring nation should always build a boat before anything else.
Simple, yes, when you put it that way, but it is not something that everyone would see or rank as you have done.

However, Food, Gold, Shields is alphabetical. Even an Inquisitive Idiot such as myself should be able to remember that.

.....and here's the save:

OK a couple things...

I shadowed the turns and a few things we did differently without being spoilerish.

I was able to build a curragh, 2 warriors, and a settler and will be at pop 3 next turn. Our trading was similar however I popped WC from the goody hut instead of CB since I set research to CB off the bat and got WC free . I then switched to writing afterwards. I located another civ.

The good news is your research rate was significantly better than mine since you chose to work the bgs first whereas I chose to irrigate the cow first for growth. You were at 13 turns and I was at 29. You popped a hut and got another warrior and I was afraid to get barbs in the expansion phase so I avoided it.

Question is whether you could've beat me to philo with pop dropping to 1 with the settler finishing and I would be at pop 3 with a settler on the ground.

Could you possibly give us your start move by move? I think it would be useful to see where I erred.

Couple of points:
I popped the GH because 2 Mongol archers were adjacent to take-out any barbs that may have appeared.

I didn't realise that a tech could be chosen for research before a city was built.

And some questions: Was my trade a sensible one? Should I have subsequently traded Alphabet to the Mongols for BW+10g?

:devil:

Repeat after me "Food, gold, shields". In other words, road and water the cows, then road and mine the riverside bonus grass, road and water the elephant. Citizen assignments to high food, then high commerce, then shields. Simple, no?
Lurker's question really, as I've never been entirely clear on this, and I've seen proponents of both ways. I tend to road first so that additional workers can join in on tasks that take longer than roads. OTOH, mining and irrigation first give you earlier use of food and shields.

Is it entirely situational? a matter of style? or, if food takes precedence over gold, irrigate food bonuses first, but road before mining? or does it really matter?

BTW, that's the clearest explanation of citizen assignments I've seen yet. Thanks, Bede! :)

I popped the GH because 2 Mongol archers were adjacent to take-out any barbs that may have appeared.Nicely caught tactical subtlety. I like it. :)

Since the team seems to prefer straight commentary to socratic method, I'll answer some of my own questions:

Food: Food is the one resource that your cities will never waste. You can convert food into more population, into beakers (hire scientists) or into gold (hire tax collectors). Food can indirectly be converted to shields, through pop-rushing or cash-rushing.

Workers: Workers are the only unit that you will use in every phase and every age of the game. The more you master your worker moves, the more you master the game.

Lurker's question really, as I've never been entirely clear on this, and I've seen proponents of both ways. I tend to road first so that additional workers can join in on tasks that take longer than roads. OTOH, mining and irrigation first give you earlier use of food and shields.

Is it entirely situational? a matter of style? or, if food takes precedence over gold, irrigate food bonuses first, but road before mining? or does it really matter?



It is goal specific IMO. So you could say situational. What are you trying to accomplish at the time? Often you have food bonus with water next to your start. So irrigate before road makes sense to get the growth.

Maybe the second town has a cow and water as well, but you need gold for research, so you road first this time. If the extra gold is not going to do anything for you then, hold off on the road.

Wait, what about it being a AW game and you are already at war by the time that second scenario occurs? Maybe you need a warrior or archer more than you need growth or gold, so you mine that tile.

Of these three conditions, you are going to be using the irrigate first most of the time.

It is goal specific IMO. So you could say situational. What are you trying to accomplish at the time?
Thanks, vmxa! Cracker's article on Opening Moves in the War Academy is very helpful on which tiles to work first and efficient worker movement, but doesn't cover variable situations. Your answer is very useful. :)

Could you possibly give us your start move by move? I think it would be useful to see where I erred.

Couple of points:
I popped the GH because 2 Mongol archers were adjacent to take-out any barbs that may have appeared.

I didn't realise that a tech could be chosen for research before a city was built.

And some questions: Was my trade a sensible one? Should I have subsequently traded Alphabet to the Mongols for BW+10g?
I think your reasoning for the barbs was sound.

As far as the start goes I preferred to irrigate the cow first since the city would grow to two just in time to fill the box with 4 food instead of 3 food which would have left it 1 short of filling the box.

This delayed commerce a bit but growth was my goal first. In hindsight,as Bede said, I should've roaded the BG's first since I couldn't increase food on those tiles and shields were less important.

IMO my worker turns should have been...irrigate cow (grow just in time) road, move to BG, road, mine BG, move to BG, road and mine. This would have improved the tech pace but still created many of the same units I made.

I also chose a curragh first since I knew there was no chance of barbs and the curragh could move 3 tiles and this is how I was able to find 3 civs. The other thing a seafaring curragh does is it allows me to move onto sea tiles for two turns to see if there are any openings for a suicide run at some point. I look for sea tiles that extend more than 2-3 tiles out since this could lead to a safer run. This will be an important advantage over the civs on our continent since we can trade more effectively before caravels and galleons.

The trade for alphabet was something I did as well with trepidation. Since the Byz were known and would likely trade it around I used the same reasons to trade it. Though I didn't anticpate using BW but I feared the Byz would trade it around.

The best way for us to check trades is to save the game right before you consumate a deal and post that save along with your final save. Then the trades can be evaluated much better.

@ team please do this in the future for trade checking.

Oh one more thing....I will be out of town for a week so I hope the other next better trainers will pick up the slack and give their evaluations. I'll see you back here on Monday. :D

Ivory, eh? getting to Math seems like a good idea, if you want the SoZ... :mischief:

what is the roster now, am I up ?
I'm very sorry I'm not posting my opinions about the start etc..
it just I've period of important tests at school .

I think is right to build a Settler and then to go with Curragh , but we've a new "friend" that located 7 tiles from London. by the way , what kind of defense they'd in Andrianople ? Warriors or Spears , If they'd Warriors I think we could try an early attack , and try to conquer their city that pretty close to London and have Ivories . and then of course we'll can demand their technologies . since it does'nt happened , we still can go for some military to take city or two . that will make them afraid and will make them weak compared to us in the future.

:devil:



Excellent points, vxma.

And Whomp has been taking lesson from Tubby. Getting the food to match the growth was precisely the right move, and the one I would have missed.

@gma, what I eventually took away from Cracker's article was his mode of analysis. The concept of powerful tiles provides a very good method for coping with situational variations. You match the development work to the nature of the power you are seeking. Interestingly enough the concept carries right through the entire game, not just the opening, as needs change as the game develops, but the requirement for efficiency does not.

A minor point about the trading. Bronze Working in itself may not have been that crucial, but it sets you up to be able to trade for Iron Working as soon as another civ researches it. This is a handy thing.

Known World 3000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/300BC_WorldDotted.jpg

Where do we build our next city?

To me, Blue and Green Dot both look good. Both are on rivers, and thus can grow to size 12, which is the first thing I look for in planting cities this early. They need to be able to grow freely.

Green looks a little better than Blue since it will not overlap tiles with London. It also has two sugars waiting to be exploited and improved.

What I don't like about both of these is that units leaving London will cross an unbridged river, which means that these cities are two walking turns away from reinforcements.

Red Dot is sortof iffy. I hope it on fresh water, but that is a bit of guess and hope.

I think our third city needs to be south of Adrianople, unless we want the Byzantines to war with the Mongols.

Hmm, at Emperor and with even tempered neighbours like the Byzantines and the Mongols, should we move a scouting warrior to that new city, in case the neighbors turn frisky? Or is exploring and meeting "Strange new civilizations" (true for me, one of my first games on Conquests) more important for a few more turns. It would take the south warrior 6 turns to get to Green; London could build one in 10, maybe less.

Not a real thorough analysis, but I wanted to get the discussion started on city placement.

I haven't looked at worker turns yet, nor given consideration as to what London should build next. I favor a warrior as London's next build, which would go to our new city.

Imho blue dot it perfect for second city - green is too far away from capital, and it's not good for second city, because it will get more corruption. Rank corruption for second city is very low, so if we will build it there it will be almost uncorrupted.
About red dot: you can click on the water to see how many food it have (2 - fresh, 1 - salt). If we will not find any resourses later, we can build there our third city, it will also prevent Theodora from expanding in our direction.

Worker moves - after irrigation on cow we must connect ivory to save gold for research. Irrigation on it works well too.

Also, what the citizen is doing on ivory? :mischief: Yes, two commerce is a nice bonuce, but when we will pop out a settler we will go back to size 1 losing 4 commerce. At the early stage of game 2 food > anything else, especially in capital. I think, priority levels must be like this: food > commerce > shields.

Wow i've alread learned alot from this game.

Forgot my drum, here it is.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SnareDrumWeb.jpg

and like Vind2 said, I have too learned alot from this thread already. :hammer2:

:devil:

Green Dot has "build me" printed in the middle. Blue Dot is at best mediocre. Put the FP in Green Dot and the corruption and waste will practically disappear. All in all Green Dot has the potential to be a strong producer of commerce and shields.

:devil:

Green Dot has "build me" printed in the middle. Blue Dot is at best mediocre. Put the FP in Green Dot and the corruption and waste will practically disappear. All in all Green Dot has the potential to be a strong producer of commerce and shields.

Sugars + River + Flood Plains = :drool: / Nice location...:cooool:

:devil:

Green Dot has "build me" printed in the middle. Blue Dot is at best mediocre. Put the FP in Green Dot and the corruption and waste will practically disappear. All in all Green Dot has the potential to be a strong producer of commerce and shields.

But the green dot is 4 tiles away from London. Although your cities nearby will have basically no corruption at all, farther off cities will be totally corrupt.

You've got some tough decisions on city placement here since there aren't a lot of rivers nearby for city placement.

With that said I have to go with Bede on this one. Since there aren't too many river tiles near the capital maximizing whatever rivers (even more than lakes) are available is extermely important. The key is to get the most productive cities on the best tiles for the core even at the expense of spacing and rank corruption. That is green.

Corruption is not a problem if its managed properly and something that will be a long discussion when the time comes. You're very lucky to have Bede lurking this thread since he is masterful in his use of specialists. I highly recommend you read his "War academy" article because we will discuss this in the future.

Something that wasn't dotmapped is what tile will you sue for a city to capture the incense to the north?

Something that wasn't dotmapped is what tile will you sue for a city to capture the incense to the north?
Oops!

Did not look northward since that would not be where we put our second city. Focused on city #2. Only mentioned a third city because of the lake/sea by Adrianople and our neighbors are so close and could be fidgety.

Will get that dotmap amended once I get home.

All this advanced discussion is makeing me fell noobish :blush:

:devil:



The key is to get the most productive cities on the best tiles for the core even at the expense of spacing and rank corruption......


Corruption is not a problem if its managed properly

These are two key points that should be engraved in the lintel of every monitor. Corruption is manageable, mediocre lands are not.

I still think the FP should be built farther away.

Distance is not significant in C3C when placing the FP, as distance corruption is not the same factor as it is in vanilla or PTW. What you want in your FP is a productive city site that will benefit from minimal corruption. It won't create a second city core for reducing corruption, but it will produce a decrease in the corruption that you suffer overall due to the number of cities you have.

lurker's comment:
Yes FP placement is an after thought in C3C. Unless you have a leader to rush it, you tend to make it close to the captiol as those are the places that can do by hand in a reasonable amount of time.

I have had a few games where I just let it purculate away, but it is not common. Just get it up some place and not sweat it.

If it was C3 or PTW, then you want to take care with it, it is very important then.

Here I learned one more thing , I was always building the FP far from my capitol , I thought it used as it was in Vanilla and PTW . I thought he used for "2nd" capitol .

and I still don't understand the point with crossing river ( sounds newbiee I know ) , but what is the problem to across the river ? what will it damage ? what will be changed ?

and I still don't understand the point with crossing river ( sounds newbiee I know ) , but what is the problem to across the river ? what will it damage ? what will be changed ?

Before you have Engineering (and can thus build bridges) crossing a river ends a unit's movement for that turn, even if that unit had more movement possible (e.g. a horse or any unit on a road). This delay in movement can be quite significant, as when trying to move workers or units for combat.

Rivers also offer a defensive bonus. Your units recieve this bonus when they defend an attack coming from across a river, and your attackers will likewise have a tougher job of it when trying to attack across a river themselves. This bonus doesn't go away with the arrival of bridges.

Not my point. In C3C I once built my FP in a city 5 tiles away from my palace. cities within about a 10-tile radius of these cities were great, other cities were totally corrupt (I ended up winning the game, though). Oh, and does difficulty level have a corruption factor? I ask because this game was on Cheiftain.

Level has no effect. The cities were affected by being close to the palace. Distance is a factor in corruption, to the palace. The FP will lower corruption in the FP cities and have a small impact on a few towns next to it.

Often it does next to nothing for those towns. It depends on how far they are from the palace and the OCN.

What was your point? Antedotes are sometimes entertaining, but seldom are informative. Not to be too harsh, but I have read a number of your posts and as often as not they are confusing to the issue at hand. You should take more care about them and not just slap in coments to be part of the discuss.

OK sitting in Cal Hollow neighborhood and Holly's left me to my own devices while she gets her nails done. Starbucks and civ for me. :D
Back on topic
Since Choxorn is putting the cart before the horse I'll bring it back to the original discussion. Where are cities 2 and 3 going? Let's refocus on this.


Down the road here's a comment on the FP by alexman.

The important thing to realize is that there should not be too many cities closer to your Palace than the city with the FP. In other words, the rank of your FP city should not be very high. A good rule of thumb is to place your FP in a city with rank close to the map's OCN (20 for a standard map).

However, because the FP gives benefits even if it placed right next to your Palace, you are usually better off building it as soon as possible, in a city right next to your Palace.

Oh, and does difficulty level have a corruption factor? I ask because this game was on Cheiftain.
Yes, it affects base OCN which is used to calculate rank corruption. On regent you get OCN = 20, on Deity or DG (not sure) it's 12, on chieftian it's higher of course (less corruption with more cities)

Down the road here's a comment on the FP by alexman.
Thanks, good tip :goodjob:

Well level is a tiny part, but can be ignored for general conversation purposes.

Nopt = max(OCN * (L/100 + c + Gr + Gp*Nwe + 0.25*Ni), 1)
where
OCN is the optimal number of cities for the map size, as found in the editor
L is the percentage of optimal cities for the current difficulty level, as given in the editor
Nwe is the number of active Wonders in the empire with the “reduces corruption” ability
(Forbidden Palace, SPHQ)
c = 0.25 for a commercial civilization, 0 otherwise
Gr = 0.1 for minimal or nuisance corruption 0.2 for communal corruption 2 for communal corruption
0 otherwise
Gp = 3/8 non-communal corruption 3 for communal corruption

At the start of game with non-commercial civilization c, gr, nwe = zero, so part of formula with difficulty is only what works (transformed to: Nopt = max(OCN * (L/100 + c + Gr + Gp*Nwe + 0.25*Ni), 1)
If I'm not right, correct me :p

I still think the FP should be built farther away.
Don't mix up FP placement in a C3C game with the RCP in Pequenino's game or Schitzophrenic Shaka (which I believe is vanilla).

There may be a very very tiny benefit to having the FP farther away in C3C, but it's so small as to be hardly noticeable, and since it will take so much longer to build at a distance, it's almost never worth it. You can get it built so much faster in your core that it helps for many more turns.

:devil:

So where you gonna build town 2?

My posts do have to do with the disscusion. Although they're sometimes a little spammy, They're not off-topic. And about the FP: My point is, don't build your FP too close to your palace. Although it will help a smaller nation, a larger one will have very corrupt cities. Just forget it- this isn't my game. Put the FP wherever you want.

choxorn your point is incorrect, that was my point. There is no reason to place the FP far away in C3C. Mr. corruption Nazi himself made the case long ago.

Large empires will be corrupt regardless of the placement. You have a number of things you can do to with corrupt towns. That was what Bede and GMH were saying.

Just forget about it, okay? I don't really care where you put the FP, I was just trying to make a point about this game that I thought was correct. I do have C3C, but haven't play enough games where I payed attention to that to know about it. My last game was about two months ago, thanks to the won't read disc bug. I wish I knew how to unninstall the 1.22 patch.

I wish I knew how to unninstall the 1.22 patch.

It should be easy. What is your OS?

Back on topic
Where are cities 2 and 3 going?

3000 BC CommandoBob's City Sites
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/3000BC_WorldReDotted.jpg
Green Dot has already been hailed by others as being a good spot, so I'll say no more on it.

Red Dot is placed to grab two of the three incense in its first nine tiles. If the water is fresh (at work, no game, can't tell), then we have easy growth also. Like Green Dot, it is two walking turns away from London (when connected by road).

Were this City #15 or 20, I would place Red Dot one tile NE of where it is now, that is, on an incense hill to grab all three incenses. Better defense, but slower growth, which is okay at 15 or 20 cities. If the water to the west is salty, then building on a hill seems to be the thing to do, since it lets us mine or irrigate a grassland tile.

To build and take advantage of Red Dot means either 4 roaded grassland tiles or 5 roaded grassland tiles (if we build on the hill). In worker turns, 12 WT to Red-in-place, 15 to Red-on-the-hill. But, in order to connect to the incense, we have to build a road on a hill, which is 6 WT. In order to build and connect, Red-in-place will take 18 WT (4 grassland and 1 hill), while Red-on-the-hill will take only 15 WT (5 grassland).

Just looking at raw WTs, Red-on-the-hill is the way to go.
If the water to the west is fresh, Red-in-place seems the wiser way (can grow to size 12 and build a worker to help connect the incense).

I think that Red-on-the-hill is the bolder move. I don't know if it is the smarter move.

choxorn if you have XP go to the Control Panel and select add or remove software. There you will see all the patches you have applied to C3C. You can remove any or all of them.

My opinion on the dotmap:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/3000BC_WorldReREDotted.jpg

Just trying to keep the conversation and discussion going.:) And getting new ideas on the chalkboard.:D

CommandoBob , I'm completely with your dotmap choice .

I think we can settle a city right to the red dot . 1city will capture incense ( maybe will have a fresh water ) a 2nd will be built along the Coast and capture some BG's .
we need to road the luxuries! I think it's very important and will help to our researching since we won't be needed to raise our lux slider too much .

It might not be a bad thing, for many reasons, to have a monopoly on Ivory. Though Theodora might not agree. :devil:

If we are still going for the Repubilc slingshot, this would make the green dot even more apealing for the commerce bonus you get w/ sugar.

:devil:



Much depends on the quality of the water at Red dot. Another place to consider is the incense hill 1E of red dot. Yes it will need an acqueduct to grow past six but it will have a ton of shields when it does and gets some culture.

Turnset 02 3000 BC

End of Turnset 01 stats:

Despotism 1.8.1
Writing 18 turns
14 gold, + 0 gpt

Cities:

London (3) grows in 20, settler in 1


Military:

01 Workers
04 Warriors

Total units: 5
Supported units: 4
Army support cost: 1 gpt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~

What happens to extra food when we build a settler?
London will build a settler this turn, after just growing to size 3. We have one extra food. What happens to this food when we build the settler? Are we at size 1 with one extra food or at size 1 no extra food?

London Citizens 3000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/3000BC_LondonAsIsTrimmedDotted.jpg

If we keep the extra food and are now at size 1, 1 food, I have considered doing this:

London Citizens 3000 BC Tweaked
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/3000BC_LondonTweakedTrimmedDotted.jpg

which would start London at size 1, 3 food, giving us a slight head start on growing back to size 2.
However, doing this drops our science from 8 beakers to 6 beakers.
Is this acceptable for one turn?

Worker Turns and Luxuries
I have been embarrassed too many times, privately and publicly, with having cities revolt because the citizens were grumpy. So now I focus on keeping the little Londoners happy at all costs. Two luxuries are close by and those are 'precious' to me.
Were this my own solo game this is what I would do (that is, if I were smart enough to stop and study the game at this point!)

London Area 3000 BC Cities and Roads
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/3000BC_LondonAreaTrimmedDotted.jpg

Green Dot will be city #2, Red Dot city #3 (on an incense hill) and Blue Dot city #4 (a grassland with 3 BGs in the first nine tiles).

The pink lines are where I would put roads.

Planned turns:

Settler is built and moves south; London settler -> worker, 5 turns; worker01 roads turn 1 of 3.
Settler moves south; worker01 roads turn 2 of 3;
Settler moves south onto sugarcane; worker01 roads turn 3 of 3;
Settler moves southwest onto Green Dot; road completed, worker01 moves south into London and south again.
City #2 is founded and grows in 5; begins worker, due in 5 (I think); worker roads turn 1 of 3;
worker01 roads turn 2 of 3; worker02 born in London; London back to size 1 and begins settler, about 15 turns.
worker01 roads turn 3 of 3; worker02 moves south;
road completed; worker01 moves south and is now north of the sugarcane; worker02 moves southeast onto ivory.
worker01 and 02 make roads, turn 1 of 3.
worker03 born in City #2; City #2 worker -> warrior (?); worker03 moves northeast to sugarcane; worker01 and 02 make roads, turn 2 of 3.


This plan focuses on connecting our cities to ivory as quickly as possible. As such, it ignores such standard tactics as mining grassland and irrigating plains before adding roads. For better or worse, my style of play is to road first, and improve later.

So, this is a plan that we can follow. It can be replaced, corrected and improved. It is only a plan and is subject to discussion.

oops guys ..it's not belong to this thread
I will thank the admin who will delete this message

salt water?!:hmm:...so it seems that the incense are on a peninsula...

Well, I guess its expansion to the south, and it seems we are going to have to tell our neighbors, the Byzantines, to share their land...or else.:evil:

How do you know it's salt water?

Right-Click on a coastal tile, if its 1 food, then its salt water. If it 2 food, its freshwater.

All the way at the top. 1w of the red dot is that a river or is it mountians?

salt water?!:hmm:...so it seems that the incense are on a peninsula...

Well, I guess its expansion to the south, and it seems we are going to have to tell our neighbors, the Byzantines, to share their land...or else.:evil:
If it is a peninsula, that's good, it will be easy to make it English and claim the incense for the greater glory of Elizabeth.

Expanding south, well, my thoughts are sort of vague. My first thought it to expand southwest, dropping a city near Adrianople to limit their southward expansion. Then this thought enters my mind: We don't want to be caught in the crossfire in a war between the 'Zines and the Mongols. So I get cautious and plan to watch that fight from the sidelines, dropping cities in the newly conquered territory, while these two are focused on killing each other and not us.

I know that's not too definite. But the bigger question, since my C3C experience is limited, is this: Do AI civs war with each other often enough for this to be a viable plan?

I'm gonna have to drop out of this one.

Roster then?

Bucephalus: Just Played
CommandoBob: UP, waiting for discussion to end
goodsmell: on deck
Ansar
Smart
Vind2
Theryman

i think thats right

:devil:



Don't really know the answers to the questions about where extra food goes.

As for the warring AI, they will go to war when they run out of room to expand, or they need a resource, or if they sense a weak rival. Otherwise they are really a pretty pacific bunch for the most part. If you want to trip their trigger, plant a settlement right in their face and claim a strategic resource, then duck.

Sounds like a sound plan you have there.

[offtopic] The :devil: smilie sure is popular here.

[offtopic] The :devil: smilie sure is popular here.If you actually paid any attention, you'd notice that there's only one user using this smilie, and show your respect to him and other players by not spamming.

AFAIK building a settler doesn't affect food storage at all and that's why it's possible to have a 4-turn settler factory between 3 sizes (like 3-4-4-5). What does affect food storage is growing and shrinking, which removes all food from the city, unless stored in a Granary, with no carry-over.

If you actually paid any attention, you'd notice that there's only one user using this smilie, and show your respect to him and other players by not spamming.
@ choxorn: Bede has had a big hand in training many of the SG regulars on this board, including me, Scoutsout, Whomp, Admiral Kutzov, and others too numerous to mention. You won't earn any points by putting down someone we all respect and love. That smiley is kinda his "signature" and he's earned it. He's been extremely generous with his time and knowledge in helping new people, so I hope you'll learn a bit of humility and just pay attention to what he has to say.

Bede = :jesus: IMHO.:D :p

:joke:

But he is a really good teacher.:worship:
Might I ask, who is up?

OK I'm back and CommandoBob is up. I think you guys have your plan so off we go.

I don't think bede is the only one who uses it. Other users have used it at least once or twice. And I meant no disrespect. As for my extremely spammy comments, I just try to point out stuff. Sorry. :crazyeye:

On CommandoBob´s question about the food:

The food stored in the bin will remain there after the town shrinks.

In this case I´d do the following. Work the cow - London will be size 1 with 3 food in the bin after the settler is built. Order the worker to irrigate (4 turns) and keep working the cow tile, even though it costs commerce. In the next 3 turns 9 food will be added to the bin (=12). On the 4th turn, the worker will complete the irrigation before food is calculated, raising the food to 16. The next turn London will grow back to size 2.

Just my 2 cents, of course. :)

Turnset 02 3000 BC


London citizen works the cow, not the ivory.

Enter.

London settler -> worker, 4 turns

[I] 01 2950 BC

Citizen works the cow, not the grassland.
SettlerToGreenDot moves S.
Worker01 irrigates.
Warrior 2 NW towards hill.
Warrior 1 NW along the border.
The Apprentice SE across river.

We are at 14 gold, -1 gpt


TA sees a Mongol settler pair heading NE.
Barbs between Worker01 and Warrior 2. Comes from the Blue Dot area.


[I] 02 2900 BC

SettlerToGreenDot S.
Warrior 2 NW to hill; sees the north end of the peninsula.
Warrior 1 NW along border towards hill.
TA E towards a hill.


Mongol city of Tatu is built next to The Apprentice.

[I] 03 2850 BC

TA SE onto hill.
SettlerToGreenDot S onto sugarcane.
Warrior 2 S, hilltop to hilltop.
Warrior 1 NW onto hilltop.
LondonsMP hovers over Worker01.


Barb heads S, now 1N of Worker01.

[I] 04 2800 BC

Warrior 2 SE hilltop to hilltop.
SettlerToGreenDot arrives at Green Dot. Sees Mongol archers on the hill and mountain south of Green Dot.
TA is too far away from Green Dot (seven tiles) to do any good if the Mongols turn nasty.
TA S.
Warrior 1 sees a shore line, goes N.
LondonsMP fortifies.


Warrior 1 sees a Byzantine settler pair head north, right behind him.


[I] 05 2750 BC

SettlerToGreenDot founds YorkYork, grows in 10, worker in 5, too soon, switch to warrior in 5.
Worker01 completes irrigation.
London now grows in 1, makes worker in 1.
Don't want London to riot, so move Worker01 and LondonsMP into London.
Warrior 2 S, hilltop to hilltop. Now 1N of barbarian.
Warrior 1 N.
TA S and sees a dark green border.


Barbarian moves SW.
Byzantine warriors (3) are west of London.

London worker -> settler, 15 turns.

[I] 06 2710 BC

Worker01 S.
Worker02 (new) S.
Warrior 2 E, looking for barb camp, doesn't find it.
LondonsMP, now back in London, fortifies again.
Warrior 1 appears to be at the north end of a peninsula, moves E.
TA S onto hilltop, now adjacent to the dark green border.
TA meets the Red and Green.
We meet Japan, who has 20 gold, Bronze Working and The Wheel.
We meet Babylon, who has 0 gold, Bronze Working and The Wheel.

[IBT]

Save game for trading discussion.

London Area 2710 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/2710BC_LondonAreaTwonkyTrimmed2.jpg

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/TomTom_Club4_A_2710BC.SAV).

Note
Actually played these few turns with my original plans and with Twonky’s suggestion to irrigate the cow. Twonky’s plan was better than mine, and have posted that log and save here. Both logs stopped when we meet Red-Green (Babylon and Japan).

Trading Options 2710 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/2710BC_MapStat.jpg

Babylon will trade BW and Wheel for Alphabet alone.
Babylon will trade BW for Pottery alone.

It seems to be a no-brainer, but we could trade Alphabet to Babylon for BW and Wheel and then try to trade for Mysticism.

No trade done, just price checking. Japan is not as generous as Babylon.

If Babylon doesent meet Theodora soon, we could trade Alphabet for Wheel + BW. Its always nice to know where the horsies are.http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/smilies/chaaaarggeeez.gif

BTW, nice turnlog, CB!:thumbsup:

:devil:

Is there any advantage to doing the Pottery for BW trade first, and holding Aphabet in reserve? Consider carefully the tech tree branches before anwering.

Alphabet is worth lots. Also, we are trying to get a slingshot, and since this is emperor, the AI research rate is much quicker than Monarch level. The Wheel is not important and trading Pottery, which is a very cheap tech for BW, a not so useless tech(leads to IW) could help us for when an AI researches IW. Many AI research Pottery, which would make the value very low, so trading Pottery for BW is a better deal, because we would be trading Alphabet for Wheel, which is a bad deal for us.:scan:

I think I got it right...did I Brother Bede?:)

Here's an idea: trade Pottery and some gold for BW and Wheel. Then, see if you can trade Wheel for Myst, and if you need to, throw in more gold. You get BW, myst, and Wheel.

Think hard everyone. I see something that tells me a little about our four friends. Do you see a trend on those techs that may mean something? Think monopoly which is not alphabet. Think trading profitably. Who should you trade with first? Then who?

The decision making process:

Can I afford it?
Do I need it?
Can it be traded profitably?

If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.

--When structuring a trade: Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end for the possibility of a 3 or 4 fer and a profitable trade.
--Do you need it right away or could it wait? Dead end techs are many times not useful.

For CommandoBob--after irrigating the cow. Why not a road? Do you plan to use that tile in the future? Maybe just one worker roading so you don't have wasted turns doubling up?

I took a look at the save. Turns out we can trade Pottery for Wheel, which then we can trade Wheel for Mysticism + 10 gold + BW(?). I checked, and Babylon will trade Wheel for Pottery, and I know Theo would trade Mystic +10 gold for Wheel, but would she throw in BW? :scan:

Sounds like a 3 fer Frogman.
Question you should all ask is what techs could be perceived as monopoly by whom and why?

So many things to consider when contemplating the tech tree. I suppose it's possible that there are more trades available or soon to be available than may first be apparent.

I'll be quiet now. :twitch:

:devil:

Think again, troops, but eliminate the less useful branches of the tree. What comes right after bronze, and didn't one of those neighboring nations start with Bronze Working? And this may be an exception to the rule that says start with the most expensive monopoly tech

For CommandoBob--after irrigating the cow. Why not a road? Inflexibilty. I had a plan and wanted to stick to it. The barbarians was a bit of a worry, also. No barbarian, it would be 50-50 on whether to move or road. With the barbarian, more like 75-25. I did not want to risk losing our one worker this early in the game.
Do you plan to use that tile in the future? Maybe just one worker roading so you don't have wasted turns doubling up?

I do plan to build a road in that tile in the future. But I thought that getting the ivory connected to our cities early, while the workers were close, was better than roading the cow, then connecting the ivory and possibly being too late and having cities revolt. I felt that 2WT (one to leave the cow and one to re-enter the cow) was less important than getting ivory connected.

Please understand that these are not words of defense but words of explanation. If I missed something, please let me know.

....didn't one of those neighboring nations start with Bronze Working? And this may be an exception to the rule that says start with the most expensive monopoly tech[/delurk]Perhaps The Good Monk senses a monopoly we can't see? :mischief:

scout: But nobody has IW...i think...is that what TGOM is talking about? monopoly on IW?

3 fer Frogman? Is that good? :)

Inflexibilty. I had a plan and wanted to stick to it. The barbarians was a bit of a worry, also. No barbarian, it would be 50-50 on whether to move or road. With the barbarian, more like 75-25. I did not want to risk losing our one worker this early in the game.
OK that's what I wanted to hear. You made a great decision.
scout: But nobody has IW...i think...is that what TGOM is talking about? monopoly on IW?

OK big hint here. Who knows who? Can you tell?
How would those techs be valued if they don't know each other?

3 fer Frogman? Is that good? :)
3 and 4 fer are what we live for in trading techs.

:wavey:
just saying hi.
ansar, you seem to be a very devout student. :goodjob:
thats all for now.
9 pages and so early in the game? groovy!

Alphabet is worth lots. Also, we are trying to get a slingshot, and since this is emperor, the AI research rate is much quicker than Monarch level. The Wheel is not important and trading Pottery, which is a very cheap tech for BW, a not so useless tech(leads to IW) could help us for when an AI researches IW. Many AI research Pottery, which would make the value very low, so trading Pottery for BW is a better deal, because we would be trading Alphabet for Wheel, which is a bad deal for us.:scan:

I think I got it right...did I Brother Bede?:)

The Frog Prince gets it in one. Anytime you can go straight up Pottery for Bronze is a really good deal and it opens the Iron Working branch. Since two nations started with Bronze Working the odds are pretty good one of them has researched Iron Working, something you won't know until you know Bronze Working. It mat be possible to put together an Alphabet and some other tech deal for Iron Working. If not you can still pick up The Wheel and try again. This way you have options. If you dump everything into a deal for Wheels then you limit the options.

Here's my take on the tech picture.

Look at the similarity of techs the Byz and Mongols know and don't know.
They know everything but wheel. Why?

What about the techs the Japanese and Babs know and don't know.
They have no knowledge of pottery, myst and alpha. Why?

This gives me my first clue on who to check a trade with.
Answer

The Babs will offer wheel for pottery straight up. If they knew the Byz and Mongols that deal would not be available because they would not view pottery as a monopoly. This also means the Byz and Mongols will view the wheel as a monopoly.
With that said it also means the Byz and Mongols would be willing to pay full price for wheel. Check it out. Offer pottery to Babs and see what they will offer. Then offer wheel to Byz and work up to the best deal. :D

Who is up?

Good question vind. CommandoBob should still have the save. If we don't hear from him today we'll take his save from 2710.

Bucephalus--got it rolling with a good commerce start
CommandoBob--still up and deciding on a trade.
goodsmell on deck
Ansar the king frog--in da hole
Vind2
Smart
Theryman

Common people lets get back into this game.

Good question vind. CommandoBob should still have the save. If we don't hear from him today we'll take his save from 2710.

Bucephalus--got it rolling with a good commerce start
CommandoBob--still up and deciding on a trade.
goodsmell on deck
Ansar the king frog--in da hole
Vind2
Smart
Theryman

Uh, Thery left.

I just ordered C3C and can take Theryman's spot! :D

If that's okay with you guys, of course.

CommandoBob should still have the save. If we don't hear from him today we'll take his save from 2710.
It is too late (after 11pm local time) for me to finish my turnset today. I would like to ask for an extension and finish the turns tomorrow.

Of course Cody!

No problems CommandoBob.

Okay then, I think this is a roster:

Bucephalus: Just Played
Commando: UP
goodsmell: On deck
Ansar
Vind2
Smart
Cody

goody goody. The game is going again.

06 2710 BC

(after trading discussion)
Whomp's Trading Spoiler:
The Babs will offer wheel for pottery straight up. If they knew the Byz and Mongols that deal would not be available because they would not view pottery as a monopoly. This also means the Byz and Mongols will view the wheel as a monopoly.
With that said it also means the Byz and Mongols would be willing to pay full price for wheel. Check it out. Offer pottery to Babs and see what they will offer. Then offer wheel to Byz and work up to the best deal.

(Accidentally gifted Pottery to Japan when rechecking deals, so reloaded the save.)

Trade Babylon Pottery for The Wheel.
Some horses are between London and the Hills of Incense.
Mongols offer BW for Wheel.
Byzantines will trade BW, Mysticism and 10 gold (all) for The Wheel. Done.
Japan can only offer 20 gold for any tech, so no trading now.

We are tech-even with the Mongols and Byzantines.
We are up Alphabet and Mysticism to Babylon.
We are up Alphabet, Pottery and Mysticism to Japan.

Hit enter.

[I] 07 2670 BC

Worker01 begins to road.
Worker02 SE onto the ivory.
Warrior 2 SW towards the barb north of London.
Warrior 1 goes N to make sure the land does end and not extend northwards. Can explore the coastline later. And, lo, the land does end here.
The Apprentice SW.


Barb unit wakes up and moves SW.
Mongol archer snoops around.

[I] 08 2630 BC

Worker02 begins to road the ivory.
Warrior 2 W, hilltop to hilltop, looking for the barb camp. Sees a goody hut 2W of current hill.
TA moves SW again.
Warrior 1 S.


Barb moves SE, now 1NW of London.

[I] 09 2590 BC

Warrior 2 moves S, now due north of Barb Warrior.
Warrior 1 SE along the coast.
TA moves S, along the coast.


Mongol archer moves next to London.
What ?
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/2590BC_LondonRansackedTrimmed.jpg

Barb warrior attacks and kills our sole defender in London. The city is ransacked and we lose 14 gold.

YorkYork warrior -> worker, 5 turns.

[I] 10 2550 BC

Name the rWarrior in YorkYork Warrior03.

[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/TomTom_Club4_2550BC_MidTurn.SAV).

I did not make any moves on the last turn. Below is why:

London Area 2550 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/2550BC_LondonAreaTrimmed.jpg

London is undefended and a Mongol archer is just outside the city limits.

I see two options. Option one, do nothing and hope the Mongols resist the temptation of this small undefended city. Or, Option two, gift them 1 or 2 gold per turn to keep them honest (hopefully).

If this were a solo game I am not sure which one I would choose, so lets discuss our options and let the next player implement our decision.

London grows in one turn and it will take two turns to get the ivory connected. If London grows now it will riot since the MP is gone. We need to delay the growth of London by one turn.

Other Notes
Worker02 is on the second turn of roading. Should irrigate after roading.
Worker01 has finished roading. My plan was to move him S, then road, road, road and S again, onto the sugarcane near YorkYork. At this time Worker03 will be completed and it too would move onto the sugarcane. Worker01 and Worker03 would both irrigate (4 WT so 2 turns to complete). Worker01 would then road that tile and Worker03 would go help Worker02 build roads to the Red Dot area. Together, I think that 02 and 03 could build enough roads for our new settler to get to the New Red Dot in two turns and be connected to both incense and horse when that city is founded.

Warrior 1 can explore more of the coastline SE, but soon needs to trespass the Byzantine land to get behind it.

The Apprentice is just exploring the coastline right now, since Japan appears to be stuck in the jungle.

Well, that can't be good. If this were on a low level (Warlord or Chieftain), I wouldn't worry too much as the AI agression level is lower- they don't declare war unless you:

1. Get them really ticked off.
2. reject a demand, and only sometimes.
3. Ask them to "leave or declare", and only sometimes.
(at least, I've never made an AI declare war unless I did that- but I keep defenders in my cities :p )

In other words, they don't declare war unless you give them a reason to. But this is Emperor, which I'm told involves the AI attacking anything they can get. So you should probably give them something or where London now stands will be a pile of rubble.

Lurker:

Hum let me see, you have been hit by barbs and contact with at least two civs and still have no unit in the capitol? How did that work out for you? Going bare on troops is fine for experts, not fine for anyone else.

What I mean here is that you MUST really know what to expect at this level and settings to run the risk of no MP's. Emperor is about the last level you dare try that.

Once you saw the barbs or the other warriors floating around, you had to recall a defender or build one. You also only get one content pop, so size two needs and MP or the slider or lux or specialist.

The MP is about the cheapest and safest way to go, so you normally would have one on hand before going to
size 2.

The head long rush to get out additonal settlers is not called for at this level. Get the town set up to make a steady stream of settlers, that means being much larger and not dropping to size 1.

You have plenty of time to ge the land near you, it is not till at least demi that you have to panic.

If you had at least built a road on the irrigated cow, you may have been able to get back to town. I would expect the AI will attack as it is opportunistic. If you offer it gpt and it says not possible, you are cooked.

Why do you have three roads and two mines and not the cow or reaching York? The worker on the road by London, should have made a road from the far mine to York. It still connects the ivory when that tile is done, but it allows the next road to connect York. Now you still need two roads.

If York was connected, you could have cut off the archer to buy time.

Don't give them a dime. If the "decision" to declare has already been made, a bribe isn't likely to deter the AI. (The only thing that might would be to shift troops to London so the AI won't see it as a target of opportunity. But there's no chance to do that now.) If you lose London, then you'll likely just write this one off as a loss and roll a new start. But if you give up even 1gpt at this stage of the game, you'll really set back your economy and may not get anything out of it anyway. That's how I see it, anyway.

Lurker:

Note I did not say to give them any got, only to look at teh response to a potential offer. If they would accept it, you do not have a problem. If you will not you are toast. In either case you do not actually follow through with it.
You just want to see what your advisors response is.

Personally, I think it is a goner. No reason to be next to the capitol otherwise.

Your team may wish to just restart from the 4000BC point and play smarter.

Play it out and see what the Mongols do. They will attack whether you bribe them or not so either they'll take the capital or keep moving. Hope that they keep moving.

@vmxa: In CB's defence, London did have a defender - it was defeated by the barb. Might not the Mongol archer be there chasing the barb?

That may be valid. If I saw the archer and the barb both I may have moved the warrior away and let the barb pillage a few bucks, depending on a) what the investment was on the current project and b) the distance to the archer.

IOW I do not want to have the barb damage me, but I really am loathed to let the archer raze the capitol. It is not unusal to have 2 warriors in the capitol by turn 30 at emperor, especially if you have raging barbs and or have alreay seen other civs off in the near distance.

Yeah- keep at least 1 unit fortified in the capital if you know any AI.

10 2550 BC

Urged to continue.
Worker01 S.
Warrior 2 S, now 1NW of London.
Warrior 1 SE, along the coast.
The Apprentice SW, along the coast.
Warrior03 fortifies, since he cannot change the outcome of whatever happens to London.
In London, work a mined BG instead of the cow; we grow in 2 turns instead of 1. This will ensure that if London is attacked, it will be razed and not become a third Mongol city.

[IBT]
Some Good News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/2550BC_IvoryTrimmed.jpg

And Some Better News: London Area 2510 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/2510BC_LondonAreaTrimmed.jpg
Mongols head south and do not attack London.
Game saved and posted; no actions taken. London needs to work the cow, not the mined BG.

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/TomTom_Club4_2510BC_MidTurn.SAV).

We are alive!:bounce:
I dont think London will finish the settler before it grows to size 3. So why not switch to a warrior for MP, like vmxa had said we should have had by now? :)

Why do you have three roads and two mines and not the cow or reaching York? The worker on the road by London, should have made a road from the far mine to York. It still connects the ivory when that tile is done, but it allows the next road to connect York. Now you still need two roads.

If York was connected, you could have cut off the archer to buy time.
The mines were roaded on the first 20 turns. The cow was irrigated this turnset. I wanted to road the irrigated cow but the Barb-That-Later-Sacked-London was adjacent to the worker, so I moved him south to connect ivory and YorkYork (YY).

When I planned these turns back in Post #138 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4096531&postcount=138), I wanted to road and irrigate the sugar around YY to help YY to grow. I was too focused on connecting ivory, YY and incense as quickly as possible and that one line running north and south sure looked efficient. But you are right, I could have used the existing road to make the road to YY shorter.

I wanted to road and irrigate the sugar around YY to help YY to grow.

Irrigating sugar does nothing extra in Despotism, that is why you mine sugar in Despotism.;) Also, dont forget to irrigate the ivory. The road may give extra commerce, but food is also important.:food:

I dont think London will finish the settler before it grows to size 3. So why not switch to a warrior for MP, like vmxa had said we should have had by now? :)
Let me explain something (in a good way).

When I posted my plans, I was asking for advice and help. I'm the learner, not the teacher. I posted the plans so that others could see what I planned to do and comment on those plans. Twonky had a good suggestion I had not considered and I took his advice, to the point of running two games and two logs to see the difference. It didn't take long to see that Twonky knew better than I did.

So part of my answer is 'I told everyone what I planned to do and it seemed to be OK with everyone and so I did what I had said I had planned to do and now that I have done what I had said I had planned to do it is a bit late to complain about what I have done.' (which is not intended to be a rant, even though it may look like it).

Another part of my answer is 'I was just happy that London was not attacked and didn't think about it!'


EDIT:
First part about 30%, second part about 70%.

Irrigating sugar does nothing extra in Despotism, that is why you mine sugar in Despotism.;) Also, dont forget to irrigate the ivory. The road may give extra commerce, but food is also important.:food:
You're right. I keep forgetting about the depostism penalty.

EDIT:
I had only planned to play ten turns this turnset. So now this game is in the hands of goodsmell, I think.

Whew. :) If I were the Mongols, London would burn. But luckily for you, I'm not the Mongols. :devil: You can just never predict what the AI does.
Before the archer moved, I would have been :scared: But after it moved, I would be :dance: Unless of course, it destroyed London. Then I would be[pissed] and :badcomp:

The AI has interesting behavior at this point in the game. I would guess if you had a city where the borders were touching it would be toast.

OK what's the plan?
I have a SG to play but will take a peek at this later.

Bucephalus: Got us started
Commando: Gave us a little scare
goodsmell: UP
Frog King Dude--On deck
Vind2
Smart
Cody the brainiac

BTW do you guys mind if I make up nicknames for you? Why you ask? Because it's what I do.

We get a Whomp name! We get a Whomp name! :crazyeye: :dance: :banana: :woohoo:

Whew. :) If I were the Mongols, London would burn. But luckily for you, I'm not the Mongols. :devil: You can just never predict what the AI does.
Before the archer moved, I would have been :scared: But after it moved, I would be :dance: Unless of course, it destroyed London. Then I would be[pissed] and :badcomp:
Good use of smillies

thanks Whomp, it seems all the 'idiots' are giving me names. :hammer2:

I have two nickname suggestions:
goodsmell: somethign that smells good, like roses or <insert name of food you think smells best>
Vind2: Mailman (got this from his postcount)

Just a few minor comments from a lurker:

In London, work a mined BG instead of the cow; we grow in 2 turns instead of 1. This will ensure that if London is attacked, it will be razed and not become a third Mongol city.

Clever thinking imo, but it would not have worked, as towns are only autorazed if they are size 1 and have less than 10 culture.

An unimproved riverside sugar tile yields 2f 1sh 2com, so neither irrigation nor a road will bring a benefit during despotism. So you can basically choose to either road and irrigate the plains 1N of YY (which will only be used on size 3+) or mine and road the sugar (which will take long and give only small profit).

And a last point considering your planning of new towns. As they say, food is power - especially in the early game. The best tile visible in terms of food is the fp-wheat down the river. You might want to consider settling there soon, maybe on the forest 1NE (this was brown/orange dot on an earlier map of yours). A town there might be useful for spawning workers.

Oh, and congrats on being lucky with the Mongols! I´m sure they will regret not having attacked sooner or later. :)

I wonder if they were just taunting you guys. Either way- get them (when you have enough military)! :evil:

Clever thinking imo, but it would not have worked, as towns are only autorazed if they are size 1 and have less than 10 culture.
Forgot about the culture aspect. You're right, moving the citizen would not affect the razing.

I forgot how close the ivory was to being connected and did not want London to riot when it grew. That was another reason to slow down its growth; so that it would not riot at size 2.

Would the city grow and then the road connected or would the road be connected and then the city grow? Do we know how tasks are ordered in the IBT?

I forgot how close the ivory was to being connected and did not want London to riot when it grew. That was another reason to slow down its growth; so that it would not riot at size 2.
During the IBT, happiness is calculated before food & growth. So a town that grows into unhappiness will not riot on the same IBT.

Would the city grow and then the road connected or would the road be connected and then the city grow? Do we know how tasks are ordered in the IBT?
The worker actions are resolved as the very first thing in the IBT, even before the AI moves. So it is possible to have a town in unhappiness at the end of a turn, press enter, see your worker connect a new luxury and thus make the town content before it is checked whether it might riot.

To take the example of London: suppose it is size 2 (1 content, 1 unhappy) and grows in 1. The worker has 1 turn left on connecting the first ivory.
-> Press enter.
-> The worker hooks up the lux
-> Happiness is calculated in London (now 1 happy, 1 unhappy), so no riot
-> London grows to size 3 (now 1 happy, 2 unhappy) and gets the shields of the newly worked tile
-> The next turn starts. Now you need to take care of happiness, or London will riot in the next IBT.

IIRC, it riots, then connects.:(

Guys I've to skip this turnset , and maybe I'll withdraw . because it's like too hard for me , I mean you all have explanation about everything and I feel like a newbie , my head like blows from translating everything :D :D . I'm sorry but I don't think I can satisifate a good details and good job .

the Frog King Dude has it. :D

So...wat are my orders for these 10 turns?

Goodsmell--it's fine if you want to stay and we're patient. Will you lurk at least?

We will not tell you what to do Frogdude. Tell us your initial thoughts.
I'll look at the save tonight but I'm asking questions first.

My first question would be do you want to kick out another settler right now?
The city is working one to three tiles during your turnset. Which ones?
What do you see the worker tasks during this set?
What are we doing with the sling? Can it be pulled off with the capital at pop 1?

CommandoBob...you are now Tex.
Vind is...meh.....agree with Chox...Mailman
Anyone else need a name?

pre-flight
Worker01 starts road.
Worker02 starts irrigation on ivory.
Lower lux slider since we do not need any happiness.
Up science slider by 10%(that means now 90%) makes Writing in 7 at +1gpt.
Send Warrior2 to London for MP duty.

London(at size 2) will grow to size 3 in 5 turns using the road+mined BG and irrigated cow, and will finish the settler in 4 turns. So I change settler to warrior,which will finish next turn,and will serve as extra MP duty.

EDIT: sorry Whomp, X-post. this is only the pre-flight. :)

IBT- Mongol archer is now N of YorkYork. London warrior -> settler.

1. 2470BC
rename YorkYork to Yorktown.:ack:

IBT- Mongol archer moves toward our sugar.

2. 2430BC
Worker01 finishes road next turn.

IBT- Mongol archer goes south to Yorktown's forest, almost out of the woods.:lol:

3. 2390BC
Worker01 finished road, heads SW, which is one N of Yorktown.
Writing due in 2 turns at +1gpt.

IBT- 2 Japanese warriors appear down south, must be barbs. Mongol archer heads out of Yorktown. :dance:

4. 2350BC
Yorktown worker -> granary. Worker02 finishes irrigating. Worker02 heads to road the cow. Worker in Yorktown is renamed jack. jack heads over to the sugar fields. Worker01 starts road.

IBT- Writing comes in. Writing -> Code of Laws(phil slingshot).

6. 2270BC
Worker02 starts road on cow. Worker01 finishes road, starts irrigating.

8. 2190BC
London settler -> settler.

decided to stop for a break and questions, maybe some coffee and cookies.:coffee: :D


Where do I send the settler?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/where_to.JPG

Lurker:

I know everyone if fond of giving their pet names to towns, but in a domination or conquest AQ game, I like to use numbers. A letter for teh civ and 4 digits appended. So E0001 and so on. This is to let me know how many more towns I need to build another army. That way I can decide if I want to wait or use the leader for something else.

rename YorkYork to Yorktown.:ack:
Well, at least you didn't change the name to 'YuckYuck'. I did 'YorkYork' because of 'Tom Tom'. :crazyeye:

Where do I send the settler?
Twonky mentioned a place down south (I don't have the save open, I'm at church right now up in the tech booth prepping for Wednesday night service). We can grab two incense and the horse real quick if we move 3N and 1NW, to settle between the incense hills and the horse. Growth will be slow here and we will need to road two hills.

Not sure about this though.

I think it is dot map time, with dots and nine tile boundaries, so we can see how the cities will/might bump into each other.

I would have a great fondness for the grassland tile directly north of the horsie. Probably followed by the grassland on the coast 2E1NE of the horse, very nicely surrounded by bonus tiles. Liz benefits a lot from coastal cities. But I'm sure there are many reasons why I'm wrong. :twitch:

Actually, SimpleMonkey, I had the same idea. Problem was , I was thinking it was way too far for a town this early, also the fact that its coastal makes it even better, but im waiting for the team to respond, or some other lurkers....:)

Horsetown could turn into a worker factory, I suppose, and earn its keep that way for a while. (Sending out a non-stop steam of workers, even if it's only at a rate of 1/ten turns, can do a lot to get an empire developed.) Or slap out some dinky boats. Agree that it's kinda far away, but it would hurt not to have those tiles. Early lux hook-up is a beautiful thing.

Early lux hook-up is a beautiful thing.

Especially at emperor level. Since no one seems to be responding, I will go with the monkey. :)
-------------------------
9 cont. finishing off 2190 BC
move settler to monkey spot.(be sure to name city Simpletown :D)

10. 2150BC
worker02 finishes road, goes to road NW, which is a BG.

Good thinking A train the frog. :D I like your city name too. ;)

I have some free time this weekend so I'll take a peek at the save.

move settler to monkey spot.(be sure to name city Simpletown :D)

Which will surely be confused with Simpleton.

Right? :lol:

exactly.;)
BTW, CommandoBob, would you like to join Team K.I.S.S.?

Team K.I.S.S includes many players you may have played with before such as I, soul_warrior, Whomp, Beorn, and the likes. Join, its very fun. We even have our very own artist, Mistfit, and a grandma who bakes the best cookies in the whole forum. So come for the fun, stay for the action. And we could sure use someone with lots of neat skills, we are messy.:D

(if you are interested, the link is in my signature.) :)

[offtopic] but who cares? I've been part of team K.I.S.S. for months and I still have no idea what's going on. It's great!

I started Team K.I.S.S. and still have no clue what's going on so what's the point? :confused: :lol:

@ Whomp: :lol:

Commando, if you join, you get a complimentary nickname...:mischief: :D

also, if you join, that will make my second recruit...

I think that this team K.I.S.S. discussion is [offtopic]

and a grandma who bakes the best cookies in the whole forum.
Did I hear my name being called? ;)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/180352/doublechocolatealmondbrowniesmid.jpg

I think that this team K.I.S.S. discussion is [offtopic]I think that this whole team K.I.S.S. is pure [offtopic] :)

I started Team K.I.S.S. and still have no clue what's going on so what's the point? :confused:P-O-I-N-T? Strange words you use there, old man... ;)

OK you guys have some big decisions here. You have 2 cities at pop 1 and a settler ready. Where does he go?
Can you make the philo sling if you pop another settler out of London? If you change this what makes the most sense? How about York's build? Gran or something else?



I think that this whole team K.I.S.S. is pure [offtopic] :)

P-O-I-N-T? Strange words you use there, old man... ;)

Blah blah young processing idiot. Respect your bald elders before I give you a pointy stick Mister. :D

It seems after Tex joined us one of the other teams got a little upset that we have so many players so our roster is fixed it seems. :blush: See all the controversy you've stirred up Mr. S.E.A.L. the king. Nice going. :thumbsup:

See all the controversy you've stirred up Mr. S.E.A.L. the king.
eh? :hmm: What exactly does that mean?

eh? :hmm: What exactly does that mean?
Team K.I.S.S. has about 40 players now due to Frog dude recruiting some new people. One of the teams suggested we have too many people and asked the admins to allocate players to the other teams. The next closest teams have around 30....plus we're about to get some refugees from another team becuase they're about to be eliminated. Our roster is now frozen due to our size.

That is a lot of players!! :eek:

Our roster is now frozen due to our size.
Um, not completely frozen. Per Ginger Ale, Team K.I.S.S. can still have new members, provided they actuall request KISS when applying for membership in the game.
Fair enough fe3333au. This actually is meant to NOT be a discussion thread...if they don't have a preference, then we'll make a decision, but if they want to be on a certain team, that is fine.

Sorry for the off-topic post. :blush:

OK you guys have some big decisions here. You have 2 cities at pop 1 and a settler ready. Where does he go?
Can you make the philo sling if you pop another settler out of London? If you change this what makes the most sense? How about York's build? Gran or something else?

This is my plan; feel free to disagree.

North England 2190 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Whomp05/2190BC_NorthDotted.jpg

This is a three phase plan.

In Part I we take our current settler and grab the horses (Red Dot) . We already have one luxury, so we have some help with our happiness. Claiming the horse somewhat barricades the rest of this peninsula for England. To connect the horse with only Worker02, once Worker02 finishes its current road, will be move 1N (one turn), road (three turns, four total), move 1N onto hill (one turn, five total) and road the hill (six turns, eleven total).

Part II will overlap with Part I. We need to determine what, if any, city sites are worth our time south of London. Yorktown we have. Are there others? Some fog is still present and we have to contend with other AIs. We may find one, perhaps two, before we need to look north again.

Part III settles the Green Dot and then the Yellow Dot. Green gives us one incense almost from the time it is founded. Yellow gives us 3BGs to use. Using a single worker, it will take 14 turns to connect both of these cities.

The pink question marks are just that, places where we might put a coastal city so we can make boats. Plus, coastal cities get a bonus commerce at some point, just can't remember when/where.

Red Dot City would first build a warrior (MP duty and barb protection) followed by a worker. Then I would have it produce two settlers and let London make build some infrastructure, like a library. But this last part, after building the worker, is fuzzy and subject to change.

So to recap: get the horses, examine the south and build as needed, but not much, and then grab the incense and BGs.

@CB: With respect mate, I think the area to the West should be settled first since that is more likely to attract Theadora's settlers than the Northern territory. Once we have cities down where I've marked, the area to the North can only be reached by Dromon. Also it would be desirable to grab the wheat to aid our growth; it's a big ask for London to produce all of our settlers.

I don't think Yorktown should build a granary, it's potential appears to be one of production rather than growth.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/DotmapTTclub04.JPG

I think I'm up now, so we need to to decide on a plan for the settler. Are we going to settle it 1N of the horses seeing as our sttler is on his way there? I Liked Simple Monkey's other idea 2E 1NE of horses. I'm gonna wait until we decide. I like trhe picture below for future settling.

The horses should be settled first since the settler is already there and cuts off the north before the Byz and Mongols get galleys.

Vind and Bucephalus I think you're right to settle south first but my concern is your spacing is mighty wide. You should think about city coverage (CxxC)and workable tiles. City coverage means how many tiles can a foot soldier move? How will workers get there to develop tiles? Wasted worker moves?
From Vind's picture it looks like there's a lake. Wouldn't it be more useful to land on the forest 1NE of the wheat and get fresh water plus tighter placement?

I'll repeat my question. What are you going to do with the capital and Yorktown? This is emperor and you have two civs with writing. Can you afford to have the capital popping another settler at this point? There's not enough popluation on commerce tiles to acheive this IMO.
If you do pop a settler what are the chances of slinging republic?

I think the Yellow and Green dots are the best place they can be, but the red dot should be moved 1SE. It's a tighter connection with London, meaning less worker moves, plus it doesn't settle on the horse, and you usually don't want to settle on strategic resources. Although it doesn't cut off the northern penninsula, a city 1S or 1SE of the goody hut will solve that problem.

I'll repeat my question. What are you going to do with the capital and Yorktown? This is emperor and you have two civs with writing. Can you afford to have the capital popping another settler at this point? There's not enough popluation on commerce tiles to acheive this IMO.
If you do pop a settler what are the chances of slinging republic?

I think London needs to be allowed to grow again; it should be a half decent settler factory at size 4. And Yorktown is more suited for production; maybe our military should be coming from there?

and you usually don't want to settle on strategic resources

Huh? Why not?

I'm in agreement Bucephalus. London may not be able to be a pure 4 turner but could be a combo settler/military pump while Yorktown could be a military/worker pump.

The beauty of settlers are they are instant developers. They will give you roads on hills without roading it plus they'll give food to match so Choxorn's idea makes sense to me too. It also gives you a foot soldiers move for coverage.

Settling on strategic resources is really good, only reason I dont think we should settle on strategic resource(CB's red dot) is because it is not on coast, and we waste many coastal tiles, plus, we are seafaring, which means we get extra commerce if we settle adjacent to the coast.:gold:
I'll repeat my question. What are you going to do with the capital and Yorktown? This is emperor and you have two civs with writing. Can you afford to have the capital popping another settler at this point? There's not enough popluation on commerce tiles to acheive this IMO.
If you do pop a settler what are the chances of slinging republic?

London should get a granary, since it can produce hefty amoutns of food with the cow, so switch settler to granary.:food: Yorktown should switch from granary to barracks since the 2 sugars and plains provide nice production.:hammer:

Okay, maybe "usually" was the wrong word. But a reason is that all resources give a bonus to the tile they're on, which is wasted at the center square of a city. And like I said, tighter connection with London is good, and when the dot is there, you save 3 worker moves (roading the grassland the horse is on instead of the hill). So now do you see what I mean?

Actually planting on the horses will give an extra gold piece in the city every turn so there are some benefits to landing on top and commerce is not wasted. The issue is , as Frogdude suggests, whether it's the best spot.

This is what I plan to do. Move settler to yellow dot on coast, for BGs and Commerce bonus. London to granary and move a new citzen to ivory for 3 commerce. Once the new city is founded should i work the sea for 2 commerece or BG for none? Should i pop the goody hut? What should i do for Yorktown?

Okay, maybe "usually" was the wrong word. But a reason is that all resources give a bonus to the tile they're on, which is wasted at the center square of a city. And like I said, tighter connection with London is good, and when the dot is there, you save 3 worker moves (roading the grassland the horse is on instead of the hill). So now do you see what I mean?

[delurk] Its actually settling on bonus resources(wheat,cow,sugar,etc.) because they usually contain not much commerce, but they contain food, and settling on them will not give the central city square extra food, while if you settle on a strategic resource, which most come with extra commerce, the center city tile gets extra commerce when it reaches size 7.:gold: Its all about which type of resource you are talking about.:cool:

With what KingFrog said doesn't that suggest that planting a city on one of the incense hills could be really beneficial on your dotmap?

Whatever, I still think the hill 1SE of the horse is better.
P.S.
Ansar, why did you put in a delurk tag?

Whatever, I still think the hill 1SE of the horse is better.
P.S.
Ansar, why did you put in a delurk tag?
Choxorn please stop being so confrontational. You're being perceived as a troll with some of your comments. It's fine to say what you think, though you're not a decision maker in this game, but please halt the "whatever" type comments. It's extremely immature. The problem I see with your site is it leaves 4 hills in the immediate 9 so I disagree with you however it's not my decision either.