Well how aobut you guys list some ironies that have happened in history. I got one.

The Statue of Liberty was a woman when women didn't have equallity with men for years.

"Arbeit macht frei" at entrance of concentration camps.

Alexander the Great attacked and destroyed the Persian Empire, but died an admirer of Persian culture/administrations.

Same with Kublai Khan/China

Steph, that's not ironical, that´s cynical!

Adler

You are correct Adler, Ironical is not the correct term.
What about Mithridates? Ok, it's semi legendary.

Erik XIV of Sweden, momentarily loosing his marbles, like any decent Renaissance prince had three very high ranking nobles imprisoned in the Royal Castle in Uppsala murdered.

(Erik was prone to stuff like that. In his youth he had some German princeling castrated for playing the two-headed animal with his sister Cecilia. She wasn't pleased at all, fought her three brothers for most of their mutual lives and ended her days in a brothel in Brussels. Colourful famliy the Wasas.)

When coming to his senses (after having run off mad and confused and gone missing for a couple of days), Erik made peace with the wife/mother of these murdered nobles, paying a hefty sum in compensation.

The mother, not being mollified in the least, handed the money over to Erik's royal dukely brothers John and Charles, who used it to raise an army an depose him, making John king in his stead.

You are correct Adler, Ironical is not the correct term.
What about Mithridates? Ok, it's semi legendary.

Is that the one where he took poison to build up a resistance to poison but then tried to committed suicide via poison but had to stab himself instead?

Yep. That one.

You are correct Adler, Ironical is not the correct term.


Well, it's not the right term for any of this, since it means sarcastically saying the opposite of what you mean.

Hmmm... what about:

Hannibal, destroyed the whole Roman Army at Cannae but couldnt destroy Rome, Scipio destroyed the whole Carthagrian army at Zama with the same tactics as Hannibal and destroyed Carthagre.

"Hannibal did know how to win battles, but not how to use them"

Poland woke up in the second half of XVIII century as a Russian vassal (not in theory, but in reality), without real gouverment. Three our neighbours guarded the anarchic laws not to allow Poland to get stronger, and most of the gentry seemed OK with it, just as long as the king will not grow in power and threaten their "golden freedom". First irony was that a guy who became polish king just because he was a lover of Russian tzarine (Stanislaw A. Poniatowski) was to change that.
Second irony was that he was in fact once caught by the tzar, but he managed to convince him that killing him and letting out that he's being betrayed would be devastating for Peter III's already bad reputation, so he brought Katherine II's back to his bed.
Thirdly: while polish reformers wanted to fix the state to make it stronger and save it from our neighbours, Poland was divided between neighbours (finally in 1795) exactly BECAUSE of the reforms.
Fourthly: a year after the final partage of Poland, Katherine II died and new tzar regarded himself son of Poniatowski - a year more and Poland would have been saved
And fourth irony was that just a couple of year later on, Napoleon would have came and change our gouverment to a modern one anyway...
(though polish uprisings tied prussian and russian forces and helped french revolution, so perhaps it is not so)

There's the famous prophecy of the Oracle of Delphi that if Croesus attacked Persia, he would destroy a great empire.

:lol: yeah, his whoops

I love that one :)

Oh, i know an Irony

Determined to avenge the sinking of Hood, the British committed every possible unit to hunting down Bismarck, the British had much luck when they found out the position and during the 26th may, Swordfish from Ark Royal launched an attack . Almost in darkness at around 21.00, a "miracle" hit (launched by pilot John Moffat's plane) by a single torpedo jammed Bismarck's rudder and steering gear. This rendered her virtually unmanoeuvrable, able only to steam in a large circle in the general direction of HMS King George V and Rodney, two frontline battleships that had been pursuing Bismarck from the west. The largest and most powerful warship yet commissioned had now been rendered a sitting-duck by a single aircraft. After extensive efforts to free the jammed rudders, the fleet command finally acknowledged their by-now impossible position in several messages to naval headquarters. Lütjens promised that the ship would fight until its last shell was spent.
She was sunk by it's own crew in the 27th may 1941 ( note, today is the 27th may ;) ) after heavy fire from the British.

The first battle of the American Civil War, the 1st Battle of Bull Run (Manassas for you Southerners) was fought on land belonging to Wilmer McLean, a Virginia farmer who took little interest in politics. In 1862, he had almost recovered from the damage when the 2nd Battle of Bull Run roared over his land. So he sold his farm, what was left of it, and moved 200 miles away from the war. McLean's house, at Appomattox Court House, was the site of the negotiations between Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant for the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia.

There's the famous prophecy of the Oracle of Delphi that if Croesus attacked Persia, he would destroy a great empire.

Unfortunately for Croesus the Oracle didn't say WHICH great empire he would distroy. :lol:

Alexander the Great attacked and destroyed the Persian Empire, but died an admirer of Persian culture/administrations.

Same with Kublai Khan/China

Hitler worked toward the annihilation of the Jewish race, but collected Jewish artifacts and sent researchers to find the location of the Ark of Covenant.

@YNCS: the war started in his front lawn and ending in his backyard

Something I mentioned before..

The Prime Minister of India was born in Pakistan, the President of Pakistan, in India.

Jinnah, the founder of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, was married to a Parsi, knew very little Urdu and regularly enjoyed his bacon in the morning.

Both of India's nuclear tests (6 devices in total) happened on the same occasion separated by 25 years; birthday of the founder of Buddhism, Buddha Pournami.

The initial goal of crusades was to help Byzantines, help eastern christians and halt the progress of muslims into christian lands. The result was, however, destruction of Byzantine Empire --> Muslims reaching Vienna

Polish national epopee starts with "Lithuania, my fatherland", and later on depicts sights from over Niemen river (which does not flow though Poland anymore), and local byelorussian customs.

U.S "help" Saddam to power then "help" removed him.

The initial goal of crusades was to help Byzantines, help eastern christians and halt the progress of muslims into christian lands.

This isn't exactly right. The First Crusade was fought in response to atrocities on the part of the Muslim authorities in Jerusalem against Christian pilgrims - it had nothing to do with either the Byzantine empire or halting the progress of Muslims into Christian lands, which had stopped anyway a long time previously.

The First Crusade was partly in response to a request from the Byzantine Empire to recover lands lost after the battle of Manzikert, although it was a couple of decades after that battle. That's why the Crusaders returned lands in Asia Minor to the Byzantines. Of course, the motives of the Crusaders included freeing the pilgrimage routes and establishing their own states in the Holy Land.

Class & Caste Ironies in History:

1) The British sought to impose their entrenched class system on India when it became theirs, with officer classes ruling over a melee of subordinated Hindus. What's ironic though is that they encountered a far older, more deeply entrenched, elaborate and seemingly unshakeable class system than their own in the Hindu Caste System. This got them into trouble a few times.

2) Dr Ambedkar, author of modern India's constitution, was responsible for converting millions of low caste Hindus to Buddhism in the last century. As an untouchable himself, he firmly believed that it was in their interests to 'leave Hinduism'. However, many of these new Buddhists soon found themselves falling foul of India's new positive discrimination quota systems, which sought to make spaces for low castes in govt, education, etc. It was Ambedkar himself who had campaigned for those quotas!

3) The same applies to low caste Hindus converting to Christianity. The Church urged them to convert and become 'equal in the eyes of god', shirking off their low caste, often untouchable label. However, many who did so found themselves not only missing out on the above quotas but they also received discriminatory treatment for not being any kind of Hindu!
Something I mentioned before..

The Prime Minister of India was born in Pakistan, the President of Pakistan, in India.

Jinnah, the founder of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, was married to a Parsi, knew very little Urdu and regularly enjoyed his bacon in the morning.Yes, good one. Jinnah was also a famous whisky drinker, which didn't really gel too well with Pakistan's reason d'etre.
Both of India's nuclear tests (6 devices in total) happened on the same occasion separated by 25 years; birthday of the founder of Buddhism, Buddha Pournami.Didn't know this bit of trivia, nice one.

3) The same applies to low caste Hindus converting to Christianity. The Church urged them to convert and become 'equal in the eyes of god', shirking off their low caste, often untouchable label. However, many who did so found themselves not only missing out on the above quotas but they also received discriminatory treatment for not being any kind of Hindu!

Interestingly, some churches (primarily the Catholic and Lutheran churches) didn't do this and retained the caste system, partly because they anticipated problems such as this. By the mid-nineteenth century, though, most churches had adopted the anti-caste position, in large part due to the influence of Daniel Wilson, who became Anglican bishop of Calcutta in 1832 and was vigorously opposed to the caste system, which he regarded as fundamentally unchristian.

Also, funnily, much of the anti-Christian discrimination came from the British authorities themselves, who in the first half of the nineteenth century were typically eager not to do anything that might annoy the Hindus (especially those in the army). For example, it was illegal for Protestant missionaries to try to convert Hindus until 1813, and even after that it was illegal for army chaplains to baptise sepoys. It was only in the later nineteenth century that Christianity became closely associated with colonialism in the mind of British officialdom.

The Germans put leien into power then the soveit union torn germany apart.

This isn't exactly right. The First Crusade was fought in response to atrocities on the part of the Muslim authorities in Jerusalem against Christian pilgrims - it had nothing to do with either the Byzantine empire or halting the progress of Muslims into Christian lands, which had stopped anyway a long time previously.

You're almost my idol here, and I'm sorry to disagree with You, for the first time.
As long as I know, first Michael VII Parakopines issued a plea to help to the pope, and later Alexius Komnenos asked for the same from the duke of Flandres, as long as I can remember.
That the crusade started a while after that, and after the Turkish progress into Anatoly, seems strange coincidence.
Also, the pope that preceded Urban II also issued a plea that dealed with this matter.

The battle of Mantzikert took place in 1071, which is 24 years before Clermont, which is not that "long ago" anyway, but Turkish progress was gradual, Antioch fell as late as at the beginning of the 80s, in 1082 I think, one year after Komnenos got the power and just 13 years before Clermont. In the eighties turkish emir of Smyrna, I think Chaka was his name, started raiding islands and european shores of Aegean sea. I do not have detailed information on when each city collapsed, and I don't know if we can check it anyway, the chronicles do not give us this information.

I don't claim the troubles of Byzantines were the only cause of the crusade, but were one of them.

Hope my mistake doesn't prevent you continuing to idolise me! But yes, of course you're right, the Byzantine empire was involved. However, it wasn't exactly Muslim advance that the Crusaders hoped to stop, but Turkish advance. The Turks had captured Jerusalem and the other cities from the Fatimids, who had typically adopted a more tolerant attitude towards Christian pilgrims - although these relations had deteriorated throughout the eleventh century anyway, even before the Turks took control of the Holy Places.

Alexander the Great attacked and destroyed the Persian Empire, but died an admirer of Persian culture/administrations.

anyone who invaded persia did. Alexander, the Arabs, the Mongols. Yes, we're just that good. :cool:

At the height of the Indo-China Wars in 1962, when the Indian army was suffering serious losses and the Chinese army seemed ready to charge into the plains of India, Jawaharlal 'Non-alignment' Nehru, was willing to allow American aircraft to use Indian air bases to bomb the Chinese mainland in retaliation. Of course the Chinese offered a unilateral cease-fire, but ultimately a lot of 'holy cows' in India stood demonized, not least of all, Nehru himself.

Obvious one: Hitler wanted to avoid a two-front war in WWII by defeating France and the UK first. Before he was able to beat the UK, before even America joined, he decided against it because of its difficulty. He then went to war with the Soviets. Three years later, when the US and the UK, using territory left in the West, launched Operation Overlord, Hitler would pay for leaving opening a two-front war.

US helped Saddam against Iran when we fought him 3 years later...

I find plenty of irony in the 1982 Falklands War.

Britain had spent the previous 15 years trying to offload the Falklands to Argentina, but each attempt was blocked by the islanders. Even Margaret Thatcher was forced to publicly back down after trying to negotiate an agreement with Argentina. Control of the islands was less valuble to Britain than a good diplomatic and trading relationship with Argentina

The military government of Argentina thought that Britain wanted Argentina to solve the problem by forcibly annexing the islands, but the result was nearly one thousand young men dying in a war fought for reasons of political prestige.

President Galtieri thought that making a big nationalistic issue out of the islands and then annexing them would boost his popularity with the Argentine people who were fed up with the human rights abuses and economic problems his rule had brought. The war ended up finishing off his government.

Meanwhile, Britain's Conservative government was deeply unpopular on the eve of the war because of its handling of the economy. Victory made the Conservatives so popular that they held on to power until 1997.

The sinking of the Belgrano was justified by its own captain.

I didn't know Thatcher had been trying to give the Falklands to Argentina. That's just ridiculous!

I don't think it was just victory over the Falklands that kept the Conservatives in power for the next fifteen years. Personally I attribute this to some kind of black magic and Satanic interference, but perhaps that's just me.

:lol: I'm sure the black magic played its part, along with the subliminal messages the BBC was broadcasting...

A couple of WWII ironies:

Mussolini ordered the Italian invasion of Greece because he was jealous of Hitler's military sucesses. He thought he could enhance his prestige with an easy victory over Greece, and he was anxious to do so before Germany could defeat Britain. Guess who ended up bailing the Italian forces out...:D

Britain and France put Czechoslovakia under intense pressure to cede to German territorial demands before the war in an attempt to maintain peace in Europe. The tanks seized from the Czech army were used in the blitzkrieg attack on France in 1940.

When the Germans invaded Poland during WW2, they besieged Warsaw. The Polish commander defending Warsaw was name Rommel

In 1940 a Spaniard named Juan Pujol was recruited as a spy by the German Abwehr. As soon as he got to England, he turned himself over to British counterintelligence and became a double agent. Pujol convinced the Germans that the Normandy D-Day Invasion was a feint, and the real invasion was to take place a couple of weeks later in the Pas de Calais area. For delivering this information the Germans awarded Pujol an Iron Cross First Class. He then explained to the Abwehr that since the Normandy fient was so successful, the Allies decided to support it and cancelled the Pas de Calais invasion. When the war was over the British made Pujol an Member of the Order of the British Empire. He is the only person I've ever heard of who was awarded medals by both sides for the same action

In 1940 a Spaniard named Juan Pujol was recruited as a spy by the German Abwehr. As soon as he got to England, he turned himself over to British counterintelligence and became a double agent. Pujol convinced the Germans that the Normandy D-Day Invasion was a feint, and the real invasion was to take place a couple of weeks later in the Pas de Calais area. For delivering this information the Germans awarded Pujol an Iron Cross First Class. He then explained to the Abwehr that since the Normandy fient was so successful, the Allies decided to support it and cancelled the Pas de Calais invasion. When the war was over the British made Pujol an Member of the Order of the British Empire. He is the only person I've ever heard of who was awarded medals by both sides for the same action

Thats great.What a story he can tell his grandkids eh?

I think the greatest irony in history is Israel itself. When the lot of the Hebrew population was forcibly displaced, one wouldn't really expect their resurgence to emerge after 1,650+ years. (and in spades!)

Granted, Christianity and Nero would also be a good example.

In 1940 a Spaniard named Juan Pujol was recruited as a spy by the German Abwehr. As soon as he got to England, he turned himself over to British counterintelligence and became a double agent. Pujol convinced the Germans that the Normandy D-Day Invasion was a feint, and the real invasion was to take place a couple of weeks later in the Pas de Calais area. For delivering this information the Germans awarded Pujol an Iron Cross First Class. He then explained to the Abwehr that since the Normandy fient was so successful, the Allies decided to support it and cancelled the Pas de Calais invasion. When the war was over the British made Pujol an Member of the Order of the British Empire. He is the only person I've ever heard of who was awarded medals by both sides for the same action
Pujol was referred to with his spy name GARBO.
Anyone interested in this should look for the Masterman Report aka The Double-Cross System in the War of 1939 to 2945 written by J. C. Masterman.
He was working in something called "Section Twenty" during the war. Twenty is written as XX in Roman Numerals... Yes, that's a double cross. :D

Mangoes in India acounted for as many Greek soldiers, if not more than any Indian prince, in Alexander's campaign. The Greeks did not what hit them as they devoured basketloads of the juicy sweet fruit only to be hit by serial diarrhoea and other intestinal troubles.

The three most powerful elected leaders in India today (the President is elected by legislators), none were born in India. The Prime Minister and the Leader of Opposition were both born in Pakistan and the leader of the ruling Congress party, born in Italy.

The entire German intelligence campaign in England proved to be one of England's greatest weapons in World War II. They turned every single spy, some immediately on arrival, and kept up a stream of false information to Berlin.

I think it was the same in Switzerland. The spies there made sure that Berlin thought that Switzerland was well-prepared for invasion so that Hitler wouldn't suddenly decide he didn't need spies there and send them all off to the Eastern Front.

Demetrius Poliorcetes, son of Antigonus the One-Eyed, received his epithet (meaning "beseiger") for the inventive siege machines he used in the seige of Rhodes in 305 BC. The siege, however, was a failure.

:hmm:What sort of siege techniques did he use ?

Ironic was the conflict between Fascist Japan invaded Fascist China, Japan ended up occupied by US and Nationalist china exiled on taiwan (which had been Japanese for decades) with communist china taking all the mainland.

Ironic is how America's greatest enemy (Osama & Taliban) were trained, armed and funded by Americans to fight the Russians in afghanistan.

Ironic how gay rights are being recognized by more nations each passing year and Mr. Bush tries to ban them on a national level.

A contribution:
Samuel Adams, noted Revolutionary War firebrand, criticized Shay's Rebellion for daring to resist the government.

BTW, can we drop the whole 'put in place by then turned against' category from this thread? I mean that goes back millenia, there's nothing new or ironic about the fact that humans are opportunistic.

The war to make the world safe for democracy ended with the Bolsheviks in control of Russia and led eventually to National Socialism in Germany.

A contribution:
Samuel Adams, noted Revolutionary War firebrand, criticized Shay's Rebellion for daring to resist the government.

BTW, can we drop the whole 'put in place by then turned against' category from this thread? I mean that goes back millenia, there's nothing new or ironic about the fact that humans are opportunistic.

I was thinking about cases where A asks B to help them fight C and B winds up taking over A, but they're pretty common. I call it the Vortigen maneuver. Another example is one of the sides in a Byzantine civil war asking the Ottomans over to help him.

The war to make the world safe for democracy ended with the Bolsheviks in control of Russia and led eventually to National Socialism in Germany.

Surely WWI wasn't fought to protect democracy, even according to the propaganda of the time? "Democracy" wasn't universally regarded as A Good Thing then. This is why many people even in Britain did not have the vote.

Surely WWI wasn't fought to protect democracy, even according to the propaganda of the time? "Democracy" wasn't universally regarded as A Good Thing then. This is why many people even in Britain did not have the vote.

That was Wilson's rhetoric at the time, especially after the February Revolution. Of course, that was democracy for white males.

Jeanne D'Arc- burned as a heretic, but eventually became a saint.
Robespierre- the one responsible for ten thousands of deaths ended up under the guillotine himself.
The Nazis- the 1,000 year Reich lasted only for 12 years and in the utter destruction of the German Empire.
Hitler, again- ranting all the time that the Soviets were Slavic sub-humans dominated by Jews (who were really badly treated by Stalin) and finally saying "das Ostvolk hat sich als das Staerkere erwiesen*" (when Germany's defeat drew near), ordering the destruction of Germany (Nero-Befehl**).
WW I- Wilson counted Tsarist Russia among the countries promoting democracy, while Tzar Nicholas' rule was even more authoritarian than that of Germany and Austro-Hungary.
China- Liu Bang and Zhu Yuanzhang, who originated from simple families, ended up as founders of dynasties.

*The Eastern people has proven to be the stronger one.
**An order to destroy Germany's remaining infrastructure (is a bit disputed now).

China- Liu Bang and Zhu Yuanzhang, who originated from simple families, ended up as founders of dynasties.
No irony there. It's just the ultimate success story. And something that all Chinese with even a little bit of ambition secretly dream about. :D