COTM 25 - Persia

Persia is one of my favorite civs - scientific, industrious, and immortals are pretty cool.


Civilization: Persia (Unique Unit = Immortal 4,2,1).
Rivals: 7 pre-selected.
Barbarians: Raging.
Difficulty: monarch
Land Form: pangea, 60% ocean, standard map.
Geology: 3 billion years old, wet, temperate

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm25large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm25mini.jpg

Conquest-Class Bonuses:
Start with a bonus worker.


Predator-Class Equalisers:
AIs each start with an extra settler & worker.

If I have ever seen a luxury problem this is the one. I want it all: the cow, the wine, the riverbank and the bg's. But I can't get all, so how to choose???

Worker will go straight to the wine, settler 1 NE of the wine. Second town will be either 1 NW of the original start location, or 1N 1NW. Definately not going to try an Immortal rush, too much space for such a slow moving UU.

If I have ever seen a luxury problem this is the one. I want it all: the cow, the wine, the riverbank and the bg's. But I can't get all, so how to choose???

Well, I may be showing off my newbieness here, but why choose? Delay gratification and have both.

Settle in place. It's on a hill and a good place for a settler factory. If you just gotta have the BG, move East and settle, either one gives you the river. One of the first two settlers goes North and founds a city with the cow in its radius. The other goes to the wine.

OK, here's the part where everybody tells me what's wrong with that. :)

Settling in place will mean no food bonus, which is critical for a settler factory. Im going to gamble finding another food bonus near the wine, hoping that most others go to the cow. And, instead of moving my worker straight to the wine, im going to move him to the mountian 1 NE of my planned capital location.

IMO,
we reside in west of the world map, so settler shoule move east. and think of the gold mine.
in order to not waste BG, ne or se,s to settle.
for a not risky play, 4000BC worker east and settler ne,
3950BC work south to view map on mountain.
if nothing interesting happen, settler found capital.

Wasting a bg wouldn't be a problem with so many around. So settling north for max growth shouldn't be discarded.
But my favorite city location is NE.
That's a perfectly fine 6-turn immortal (or any other combination of 30sh)-settler factory at size 4.8-6.8.
And we have 4 river BGs for lots of commerce.
I don't see any benefit in wandering any further.

now, will anyone beat this with a mere immortal rush? I will try though that is slow... :lol:

Definitely going for 20k. Map looks to good not to. Settling NW or NE, and getting at least 7 extra production spaces. City 2 will be probably founded south near wines, and be the head of the military production. Mountains are close, so there's a good chance of iron. (If very lucky-maybe even Iron Works) These last 2 maps have been great!

now, will anyone beat this with a mere immortal rush? I will try though that is slow... :lol:

I certainly will be and for the most part I'll be using regulars.

I'll start with a six turner on the cow. I'll produce vet warriors in all my early towns. I'll set up a small core and look for iron.

Research wise I will start with potts and then do a min run on iron working. When that comes in I will shut off research so I can upgrade my warriors.

I will play the whole game in despotism and work all corrupt towns at size 1 rushing an immortal whenever they get 2 pop and 10 shields.

After setting up the core workers will be used to build roads towards by enemies.

Hopefully someone will build me artemis and I'll win by dom. Pyramids and Sun Tzu would also be nice.

This will be the first time I get to play Persia, ever. I have heard so much about this unique unit, so I will plan for 20K city and massive early wars to deny others any wonders.
Wait. Who am I kidding? I never stick to a long term plan and I am not an early warmonger.:blush:
Where to settle? Feel like we can afford to waste some turns. So either NE settle SW of Cattle or NE of wine.

So which way do I go????????????? You meany Ainwood.;)

This looks like it will be another great COTM!

We have an abundance of riches to choose from. I could think of worse problems to have...

Bonus food to the north. Bonus food to the south. A river in the middle. I would like to move north and settle next to the cow. Worker to cow. Immortal rush and go for dom.

Persia has always been one of my favorite Civ 3 civs. Their UU and traits suit my play style. Imagine, Medieval Infantry on turn 15...

The map is pretty damn big at standard, so by the time I get around to conquering that last civ, their tech might make Immortals inferor. In that case go for domination. Sometimes it's quicker and easier to go for a Conquest Victory. But my civving ability is pretty much limited to pursuing those two victory conditions because that is what I find most fun.

But my favorite city location is NE.
That's a perfectly fine 6-turn immortal (or any other combination of 30sh)-settler factory at size 4.8-6.8.

NE was my spontaneous choice, too. I then counted and saw what you mean. Not bad.

However, for that you need to mine four BG's and the Gold mountain. Growth pattern 2-4-4-2-4-4 fpt surplus. Which way would you lead the water to the Cattle? Irrigate BG and then mine?

And that's a whole lot of Worker actions. Industrious is only 50% faster in Conquests. With so much commerce and the Sling-Shot, we'd soon be in Republic with five food units per turn from the Cattle tile. But I think there's a five-turn Immortal-Settler Factory in Republic also. Size 5-7, growth pattern 5-5-5-2-3 or 5-5-4-2-4. Same tiles plus the Hill.

We'll also need to consider getting the first Settler out for the Wine location and getting at least one more Worker out a.s.a.p.

I miss a fact that NE captial lose the river-side trait.
hard to choose.

@Piu
We don't need the mountain. 4 mined BGs Cow and city center is all we need for 10sh.
I haven't worked out the exact sequence, but thinking currently about granary-worker first (no early warrior). And only the second worker will bring the water to the cow.
Slingshot? Do we really need republic?

@archphoenix
Any capital on the river will be much weaker than a capital which has the cow.
For what do you need the river.
Growing to 7 is not necessary for a long time for this power location.

Slingshot? Do we really need republic?

Don't know. 60% standard size pangaea with slow Immortals -- could take some time. And there are victory conditions other than conquest.

I don't see any benefit in wandering any further.

Growing to 7 is not necessary for a long time for this power location..

yes.it's out of my habit, but it's true. thanks!

hof is different with gotm.
which HOF player always choose powerful start location.

I like the river start, will probably go SSE to settle next to the wine along the river. SSW appears too mountainous. Second city would be 3N, next to the cow, trying to establish ring-4.

ring-4.

What ring?

Lose the river, gain the Cow. Now, where to settle? Lose BG and gain instant bovine goodness? Settle NE for delayed cow but quicker irrigation of it? And what to build? As Klarius points out, Granary->Worker is very do-able as we can start a prebuild right away with the Pyramids. We lose scouting, though, and I'd like to know what's around me - 2nd city and all that.

I'm going to give it a try (would be my first COTM).

Goal : Fast domination

Research : Pottery -> Alphabet -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy or
Pottery -> Iron Working -> Alphabet -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy. Haven't decided yet what's best.

Will use the cow for a 6-turn settler factory.

Hope to find several neighbours quite fast, but overall I'm not too optimistic about that. 40% land is a lot.

Research: Alpha->Writing->CoL->Phil, as Pottery is common as muck (normally expect at least 3 adverseries to start with it... particularly expansionist ones, who we'll meet v.quickly) and we have a good trade tech in Masonry.

Does wet and temperate mean more rivers?

Ring placement is still the best solution for cities. Since we can not do any thing about the rank corruption, might as well use the distance advantage.

Perfect ring placement is pointless for C3C. The big advantage of the corruption model - no more daft city placements just to give you a perfect 4-ring or whatever.

Wet doesn't actually increase the amount of rivers, it reduces the amount of desert. Would settling in place still count as on the river and not require the aquaduct, I'm not sure. I think I will settle in place, an have the 2nd and 3rd cities use the wines and cow and whatever else is around out of sight.

Settling in place does counts as on a river (a way to check - right-click on an empty tile, and see if it generates 1 gold - if it does, it's on the river).
However settling in place will stunt growth until the second city can get to the cow.

..... With so much commerce and the Sling-Shot, we'd soon be in Republic with five food units per turn from the Cattle tile.
Why would you go for Republic gov? Wouldn't Monarchy be better? Is this a newby question?:confused:

Why would you go for Republic gov? Wouldn't Monarchy be better?

I personally prefer Republic because (i) I don't need any military police (three of them) in each city and (ii) it produces lots of money which more than covers the maintenance costs for a large military force and allows me to ruch improvements all over the place.

Regarding MP with Persia -- what, keep Warriors unupgraded!? Are you kidding!?

War weariness can usually be kept in bounds through means such as totally destroying your enemies one by one before it sets in or provoking the enemy to declare on you.

Connecting luxuries counts directly towards more money since the entertainment slider can be pulled lower. Don't be afraid to pull it up to 30%, 40%, 50% if you have to, but get those luxuries connected. Having many cities also helps keep troop maintenance costs down.

So military conquest certainly combines just fine with Republic government.

Others might prefer Monarchy. Especially where research is limited somehow or the Golden Age must start very early, Monarchy can be researched much faster than The Republic. For example, in the latest quick game, the advantages of Monarchy were demonstrated. The Republic was out of reach, and those who stayed in Despotism lost. I suppose if you have to fight very long wars, Monarchy will also postpone war weariness somewhat compared to Republic.

Republic is always better in the long run. But in this special game it's doubtful.
With the combo factory in the capital you will have a large military when you get the slingshot.
It may not be feasible to revolt to republic right away, unless you disband warriors, which is not really what you want with Persia ;).
If you're going for a quick victory, the game may well be over before republic gives a benefit.
On the other side a better government to get out of despotism penalty and run the capital as 4-turner would be really nice. So monarchy is really an option here, if one can get it at a decent time.

Republic is always better in the long run.

Yes, but for that you need to have a long run. As you point out.

With the combo factory in the capital you will have a large military when you get the slingshot.

That's a very good point.

It may not be feasible to revolt to republic right away, unless you disband warriors, which is not really what you want with Persia

I want to upgrade them and bring them to the front. What will you use as MP in Despotism or Monarchy?

On the other side a better government to get out of despotism penalty and run the capital as 4-turner would be really nice. So monarchy is really an option here, if one can get it at a decent time.

For this you might then consider building that first Warrior after all so you can be sure to trade for Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism while researching (Pottery and) Writing.

I want to upgrade them and bring them to the front. What will you use as MP in Despotism or Monarchy?
It's not mandatory to have MP everywhere. :D
Just use it in some cities, so all are on equal footing for the need of lux tax. Dedicated MP everywhere is no benefit, because we will pay maintenance for military even in monarchy (at least for quite some time).

Settling NE because of the cow seems to be the best way to start this game. Early growth is very important. However, it feels a bit "wrong" not to settle next to a river.

Going for Monarchy because of unit support and WW would be a good choice if you are going for domination or conquest. You will be going to fight early and for a long time. A large military can seriously hurt an early Republic in terms of unit support.

For 100k going for Republic would be better because of the gold to rush improvements. You will be playing the game long enough to profit from the benefits of Republic "in the long run," as klarius said.

Another option for 100k would be to change from Monarchy to Republic later, but that brings in a Anarchy phase at a time when you will already have a high number of cities, that means Anarchy could be quite long, 6 - 8 turns. I don't think it's a good idea.

Doing despot->monarchy-republic is only really feasible if you're religious (I did this in the Arabia COTM; I had the choice of Republic or Monarchy come slingshot time, and went for the latter initially; built my Ansars, revolted again, then kicked off).

For any other civs... nah, don't think so.

As for not upgrading MP warriors - well if they're only going to be MPs, why waste the gold on upgrading them? I'll be looking for a dedicated spot to build barracks->warrior->... and nothing else.

We do have iron close by, don't we...?

(Persian OCCC on a tiny pangaea is my favourite variant by the way... :satan:)

As for not upgrading MP warriors

No one suggested upgrading them as long as they stay as MP. A difference between Monarchy and Republic is that the Warriors you keep as MP in Monarchy would be upgraded to Immortals and fighting at the front in Republic.

Well as I won't be going Republic anyway....

I'll state here and now that I'll be going for Space in this game. Early libraries, relatively light military until my core infra can support it, and looking to kick off my GA early-mid MA. If there are horses, all the better. If not, well, my MedInf will cost me 30 shields as opposed to the 36 my opponents will be paying for the same units ;)

Well as I won't be going Republic anyway.

I'll go for a sling-shot and see which one fits better when the time comes. I'll also look who's around before deciding whether to research Pottery myself or rely on trading it before approximately 3000 BC when the Granary is finished. The expansionists for example will find us soon and they have it.

NOOB QUESTION.

Can it be played on mac Civ III complete?

I'll also look who's around before deciding whether to research Pottery myself or rely on trading it before approximately 3000 BC when the Granary is finished.

That's a pretty early granary. Are you using the whip?
My initial thought after you guys came up with the Immortal Combo Factory was to use an early worker to help get all that mining done...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/PaperBeetle_COTM25_pregame.GIF

It gives eight settler combos by the end of the QSC. But if we don't have any iron handy, is it feasible to do 3 axes for every settler, or does that send us bankrupt?

alright, guys, i dont speak CIV jargon at all, so what are you guys talking about when you say things like

4-ring
slingshot
MP
factory
etc etc
Im interested in reading you guys' strategy, as it might help me get above regent in the normal game, but alas i cant understand you! please help

@Cheezy the Wiz

4-ring Cities placed in a ring around the capital, all at distance 4 (CivIII vanilla and CivIII Play the World only)

slingshot Using the free technology from being first to discover Philosophy for a really expensive technology such as The Republic or Monarchy (CivIII Conquests only)

MP Military Police, military units in cities bring happiness under some governments (Despotism up to two units, Monarchy up to three units)

factory A fix pattern of growth and production that minimizes losses due to food and shield quantization, especially for producing a settler every four turns in the capital

etc etc Visit the War Academy on this site

That's a pretty early granary. Are you using the whip?

No, I'm mining instead of irrigating to begin with. According to my calculations, that pays off even in population growth thanks to the earlier Granary.

I haven't even planned to mine, mine, mine, but have for example roaded the Cattle tile to win commerce. Check it out. Those Beegees are awesome.

is it feasible to do 3 axes for every settler, or does that send us bankrupt?

I'd say that's exactly what Klarius was talking about.

First COTM:

Will settle NE. Going for Domination. Pasargardae will be somewhere S of the wines. Arbela will be somewhere N of Moo-moo.

Double post

No, I'm mining instead of irrigating to begin with. According to my calculations, that pays off even in population growth thanks to the earlier Granary.

That is an interesting idea. Hadn't even occurred to me. Back to the spreadsheet!

NOOB QUESTION.

Can it be played on mac Civ III complete?

98% sure the answer is..... Yes. :)

I might try it, then. First I have to see if I can open the save, LOL

One comment about moving the settler NE, NW or whatever..

Getting the cow in the 9tile radius will speed up the first growth from 10 to 7 turns.
So it is easilly worth an extra step to get the cow in the small radius.

Losing a BG is insignificant compared to a few turns faster empire development.
I'd move north to the BG.
If you dont want to settle on BG, making 2 steps to get cow in radius is still better than moving 1 step with cow only after 10 turns.

Would you also move when going for a 20K?

Or is it better to leave the Cow and the wine for the settler factories?

NOOB QUESTION.

Can it be played on mac Civ III complete?
Whoops! Missed this question.

Yes, absolutely. Play it using the Civ3 Complete application. Are you aware of the Mac forum?

When you have finished the game and made your final save you'll have to run it through my FileValet utility to compress it before submitting it - see my signature for a link.

Mac Civ3 Complete is waiting for a patch to allow it to compress manual saves. FileValet can also be set up as a Folder Action to archive compressed copies of all your autosaves.

No, I'm mining instead of irrigating to begin with. According to my calculations, that pays off even in population growth thanks to the earlier Granary.
That is an interesting idea. Hadn't even occurred to me. Back to the spreadsheet!

Yes indeed it is... I also worked my spreadsheet through using a whip at 20->40 instead of the early worker, and got to the same date as the one I posted before. So let's try mucho mining. I like this start :). Lots of options to play around with.

Would you also move when going for a 20K?

Or is it better to leave the Cow and the wine for the settler factories?

I honestly don't know since i have no real experience with 20K. (tried it twice, was killed one of those 2 times within 40 turns or so)

But i think i would use the cow for the 20k city.
You could of course use your second city to join workers in your 20k capital, but then why not just have the cow in your 20k city instead?

The cow will also allow your 20k city to use some hill/mountain tiles for better production when it reached its size.

The 20k-Town I would found S-SE of the start. +1f is a good start and will be enough to allow working the gold mountain later in Republic. Lots of riverbanks provide some commerce which will be powered by Newton and Cope.

However I would not make 20k town my capital (to have the palace prebuild / fallback) but found my capital probably N or N-NE (depends on what my worker spots when he steps on the cow).

Oh, I'd love to play this 20k, too, but civving time is rare... :(

certainly on this low difficulty, i doubt you will need the palace prebuild and i would probably prefer the zero corruption in the capital.

certainly on this low difficulty, i doubt you will need the palace prebuild and i would probably prefer the zero corruption in the capital.

Yes, but you want the capital near the cow which means it will be stuck at size 6. It has the most shields though, so it might still be a good option.

I would say settle the capital 1N, 1NE, build warrior->granary->settler(20k)->workers... The 20K city 1SE of the start (2S from capital) unless the warrior finds something better. Also you may found more support cities if you find more food bonuses. Settling on BG is not much of a waste for 20K because it will soon be size 7. That is 4 spt less the the capital (cow: -3, corruption: -2, wine: +1), but no need for aqueduct. And there is a possibility to find something even better with the warrior.

would you build a granary before settler in a 20k game?
That sounds odd to me.
But hey, i wasn't planning to think about this game much more. :)
So lets just wait for the spoiler now.

Why not? The cow& BGs spot has awesome production.

I think what is really important is not the date at which the 20K city is built, but the date at which it reaches size12. The temple gets delayed a bit, but all other stuff will be sped up.

There is another advantage of giving some time for the warrior to scout and find a better spot.

I haven't worked out the exact sequence, but thinking currently about granary-worker first (no early warrior). With raging barbies, that could mean a very fast game....right?

With raging barbies, that could mean a very fast game....right?

Why? It's not like they have the power to destroy your cities.

My thoughts were S to that river side GL. Then worker to irrigate and road the wines. A couple of scouting warriors then a settler and a granary. Research Alphbet to Writing to CoL then the Philosophy for the Republic Slingshot. City 2 will found near the cow build a barracks and alternate between workers & vet warriors.

Of course when I find out I'm sharing a small island with Germany & the Aztecs without any iron, I'll change course to an Archer rush.

Hi...
I would go for the cattle first then with another city for the wines... I look for a right place for posting my questions but I couldnt find ti so ill post it here I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to ask this.

I instaled the GOTM software i got CIV III complete edition but I havent been noticed about any changes in the gameplay... I have played for few minutes and in a random map choosing the GOTM MOD in the scenario list... I just want to know if there is a way to confirm if I installed the thing in the right place... thanks.

I instaled the GOTM software i got CIV III complete edition but I havent been noticed about any changes in the gameplay... I have played for few minutes and in a random map choosing the GOTM MOD in the scenario list... I just want to know if there is a way to confirm if I installed the thing in the right place... thanks.
COTMs are Conquests games. That means they are played in Civ3 Conquests Edition, and require no mods. If you launch Civ3 Conquests you should see its version number in the bottom left of the main mnu screen. If that isn't version 1.22 then you have a problem. Tell us what it says and we'll work out what you need to do.

The GOTM mod is purely for players who only have the Civ3 original "vanilla" version. That and Play the World are not used to play COTMs. They are required if you wish to play GOTMs like GOTM 55 that start mid-month, but I would recommend using Play the World if you want to play them, then no mods are required.

1.22 so I just need to download the current GOTM save and load it ? BTW having complete edition is possible to launch just PTW? every time I run the shortcut in my desktop it launch conquest

You need to go into the actual program folder then you will see the icons to launch PTW and Gold (which is vanilla) Use your right click to put the shortcut on your desktop.

Just to restate, go to your drive, usually C:, then program files, then it should be in atari or firaxis, then civ complete then in there look for the PTW icon.

1.22 so I just need to download the current GOTM save and load it ?
For the avoidance of doubt: You just need to download the current COTM save and load it

BTW having complete edition is possible to launch just PTW? every time I run the shortcut in my desktop it launch conquest
What Marsden said. It should open a different main menu screen, with version 1.27 at bottom left.

....N or N-NE (depends on what my worker spots when he steps on the cow)....
I never thought about sending worker to the cow. Good Idea, I will use it.:goodjob:

This is a hopeless muddle position. Wouldn't it be nice if we got all these in one city?

I'm going to try this COTM, hopefully it will go better than some of my previous ones. I think I will settle NE and maybe go for a conquest or domination victory.

@WackenOpenAir I see your point about getting the cow in the initial radius, but then you have at least 2 less BG in the initial radius, although I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage this would be. You'd also loose the gold, although who knows what bonus might be in the blackness at the top.

Anyway, good luck everyone!:)

@WackenOpenAir I see your point about getting the cow in the initial radius, but then you have at least 2 less BG in the initial radius, although I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage this would be. You'd also loose the gold, although who knows what bonus might be in the blackness at the top.


Almost no disadvantage; you are only restricted to the initial radius for 10 turns, by which time you can only reach pop 2, so it is fine to have just the moo and one beegee next to the town. Wacken is right that settling next to the moo essentially brings your game forward by three turns, but the trade-off is less commerce in the capital in the medium term. Of course you will settle the river and the gold with your first ring, so you get that commerce back from other towns... reckon I'll be settling 1N then!

@PaperBeetle -- remember that in C3C, rings don't matter.

The expression "first ring" existed long before the discovery of RCP. It refers to those cities which are in the inner ring around your capital. To qualify as first ring, cities do not have to be all at the same distance. They simply need to be in a direct line to the capital with no city in between.

So, who's in for ancient age conquest? http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif

errrrrr. I can't get save in. It's always that rings program thing that Turner made.

errrrrr. I can't get save in. It's always that rings program thing that Turner made.
I don't understand this post. If you need technical support, please PM me or ainwood.

errrrrr. I can't get save in. It's always that rings program thing that Turner made.

Sounds like you try to open it instead of save it when downloading. Since you have 'that ring program thing that Turner made' installed and that program has the .sav extension connected to it, your computer uses it to open the file.

Rightclick the link with the save file, choose "save target as" and choose the civilisation/conquests/saves folder.

errrrrr. I can't get save in. It's always that rings program thing that Turner made.
Are you doing (as wacken suggests) trying to open it instead of downloading it, or are you downloading it, then double-clicking the save file to try to open it?

If the former, follow the instructions in the post above. If the latter, then you need to know that Civ3 doesn't allow you to double-click on a save file to open it. You need to start Civ3 first, then use the in-game menus to load the save.

P.S. - its not Turner's rings program; its written by dianthus (Turner just ahs it in his sig).