Last night I was playing on a crowded continent as Roosevelt (shared the continenet with Rome, India, England, and Germany), and was able to build the Great Lighthouse and got CS slingshot around 900 BC. However, as soon I was switched to bureacracy and caste system, Rome player called me a cheater and attacked me with like two dozen praetorians. What's worse, both England and India declared on me as well, each with a dozen or so units. With their combined force, there were able to raze 5 of my 7 cities (including my iron city). However, England and India went to war with each other soon, and I was able to sue for peace with them. Still a dozen praets were swarming around my last two cities, which were defended by two macemen each and some archers. The Rome player could have easily choke my civ if not totally take over, but I guess he was disgusted by my "cheating", so he quitted the game. AI Rome was pathetic at waging war and did mostly pillaging and suicide units, and I was able to get peace after several turns. Rebuilt my empire to about 5 cities, and was grabbed nationalism with liberalism slingshot in 1100 AD. My plan was to get my revenge after I build massively army of cavalries. Unfortunately, all the players quit after seeing my point and tech lead, so the game was over early. Assuming that I am at war with a Rome player on MP, which unit would be better for killing praetorians? crossbowman or maceman? Does it make a difference if I am attacking or defending? Also, I think I overexpanded to 7 cities, and had only two axes to defend for each city. Maybe next time on a crowded land I will build 5 cities, and have 4 defenders per city.

I sounds like your opponents were idiots. I'd go Maces to fight Praets. Equal power and 50% against Melee units. Then give them CR promotions and raze them for their arrogance (or lack of skill)...

You can't get macmen without machinery, and since you said you were doing a CS slingshot I would assume that you would be getting that tech even before machinery. If you have a choice between Macemen and Crossbows, you're probably better off with the maces. Both get +50% vs. melee, but maces are strength 8 for a cost of 70 while crossbows are only strength 6 for a cost of 60. Maces have more strength/cost and even if they didn't you always wanna choose the higher strength due to their increased survivability. The crossbow's first-strike only really makes it win battles with a little less damage. Crossbows require Iron, but I believe that Macemen can be built with copper if you are lacking Iron.

If you have a choice between Macemen and Crossbows to counter Praetorians, you would be an idiot to use crossbows. Crossbows are only axe/mace counters and nothing more. Given the price of machinery, and the benefits of getting CS sooner rather than later, I would assume that you will probably always have a choice as to whether to build macemen or crossbows.

How about cats? It is cheaper to research Mathematics > Construction, than Metal Casting > Machinery.
Cats are cheap, and need no extra resource. 2-3 cats per city for defence popouse would solve the problem. When the enemy stack aproches the city, just strike with the catapults and the collateral damage will be suficient to slow him down.

If you have the Machinery allready, than maceman would be the option, you can upgrade the axeman to maceman too.

Crosbows are good too. But only for defence. Besides 50% vs melee, and first strike, they can be promoted with city defence. So if you quickly need a defender, the crosbow is an option.

I sounds like your opponents were idiots. I'd go Maces to fight Praets. Equal power and 50% against Melee units. Then give them CR promotions and raze them for their arrogance (or lack of skill)...

i totally agree.
How on earth would you quit when you have your opponents balls in your hand?:suicide:

having your iron taken , he just should have gone for your copper
after that it's pure numbers : 2 praets will kill a mace and you cannot build any more

Of course, 2 dozens of praetorians make some nice hole in the roman budget, but some pillaging can bring back the money.

Don't try to execute builder strategies in a MP game? I mean seriously, what did you expect. People to act like the AI does? :lol:

Next time, chop-rush some Axemen, and focus on your military. A CS rush is probably the surest way of getting yourself killed (unless you're on some map specifically suited to it, in which case all the humans go for it, except that one jerk who, predicting this behavior, goes around and slaughters everyone with his 2 dozen Praets).

Wait a minute. You say you were beat down to two cities by Praetorians, and still somehow not only researched Liberalism by 1100 AD, but also scored the free tech?

To quote the guy who said your opponents were idiots, your opponents were idiots. Except maybe the Praetorian guy. He's probably gotten bored of repeatedly playing Rome and whomping on people like you and your remaining opponents.

Oh, and as for what kills the Praetorians, you might as well go for Crossbows if you run into Rome. You need the same techs you would need for Macemen (namely Machinery), but you don't need the other requisites. Praetorians come along too early for you to wait on Macemen (even if you pull off the CS slingshot, you're still Machinery away from Macemen). Alternatively, research Feudalism, and build Longbows. With all their defensive boni (especially when promoted), they're hella tough to kill, and Praet-boy probably isn't bringing Catapaults for awhile (certainly not while you're still gunning for the CS slingshot).

I have never played multiplayer but I agree why stop when you can finish someone off. If I see Rome I take note to these Praets and prepare for their possible attack. Perhaps when they send out their huge army you could sneak a small group of attackers behind the lines and screw them up by taking out their iron/copper and pillage pillage.

The only time when big masses of crossbowmen are good is when you've rushed to machinery. I'd definatley use maces as the main army, I'd use crossbowmen sparingly to garrison cities, to help cover a stack, and to suicide-wound any highly promoted praetorians before your macemen move in for the kill. In your specific case, I'd try to rush some crossbowmen with city garrison promotions to hold/make expensive your border cities, plus a couple more to start stacks, then focus on macemen for fighting him in general.

The big reason I wouldn't go with all macemen is both cost and the fact that it screws with his promotions, especially since you formerly had axemen defenders. He's likely to have quite a lot of praetorians with the shock promotion, but few or none with cover, and tossing some crossbows into the mix makes a good trap for shock praets.

maces all the way cuz after you defeat his praets you can counter-attack and obtain your retribution...

Well, I notice on open ground, crossbowman often wins out against maceman (or praetorian), due to the fact that it has first strike and has bonus versus melee. It is cheaper hammer wise than maceman I believe. However, with only strength of 6, it is vulnerable to horse archers/elephants. So I am thinking build mixed stacks of crossbowman (fight in the open), spears (defend against mounted units), catapults (for killing stacks), and maceman (with city raider promotion, for taking cities).

Crossbowman is more efficient in defending cities.
But ofcouse, complitly passive stance lead to loss.