Im not real happy with the current implementation of ancient temples. They seem to boring. To be honest i loved the look of them so I added them in without much thought as to what they would do (classic flavor leading design mistake).

In the mythology they are temples to Mulcarn (the god of winter) that were built during the age of ice and have been abandoned since he was killed. But we can change that if something else makes more sense.

Right now they need to be explored, once they are they provide all newly built arcane units Combat I if they are linked to the temple (less useful now since the only arcane units that are build are the adepts, and arcane units actually level).

Ive considered the following effects, none of which im particuarly happy with:

1. Random effect, teleporting the unit to another temple, popping a demon, granting a tech, becoming an already improved mana node, etc. I dont much care for this since it copies the goody hut mechanic.

2. Increases the rate arcane units gain xp. I dont much care for this since it copies the arcane trait mechanic.

3. Grant bonus xp to disciple units.

4. Pop monsters (lizardmen?) every so many turns until they are explored, at which point they become dormant.

What do you guys think they should do?

What do you guys think they should do?

Ideally, I think they should mostly give quests. But that's far into the future, so we'll still need a placeholder mechanic.

Perhaps they could give access to certain special units?(Lost disciples of Mulcarn? Tamed monsters lurking in the dungeons beneath the temples?) Or give a culture bonus to all linked cities?(might be too powerful in regards to new cities). Or have an effect somewhat similar to the Runestones I mentioned in the "Design: Resources"-thread a few days ago?

The random mana source might also make sense, though it is a bit boring.

Ideally, I think they should mostly give quests. But that's far into the future, so we'll still need a placeholder mechanic.

Perhaps they could give access to certain special units?(Lost disciples of Mulcarn? Tamed monsters lurking in the dungeons beneath the temples?) Or give a culture bonus to all linked cities?(might be too powerful in regards to new cities). Or have an effect somewhat similar to the Runestones I mentioned in the "Design: Resources"-thread a few days ago?

The random mana source might also make sense, though it is a bit boring.

I like the idea of the temple that give a special unit.

What do you guys think they should do?

Well i have a few ideas.
I think that having a random effect might be really nice.
What if they were instead lost repositories of secret knowledge. They could give a lot of possible effects based on this idea.

Or, they could be centers of worship of barbarians. Lizardmen?

More later right now there's party at my house. (and do you think we've done enough on the Luchurip yet so i can work on ancient temples?)

Well i have a few ideas.
I think that having a random effect might be really nice.
What if they were instead lost repositories of secret knowledge. They could give a lot of possible effects based on this idea.

Or, they could be centers of worship of barbarians. Lizardmen?

More later right now there's party at my house. (and do you think we've done enough on the Luchurip yet so i can work on ancient temples?)

I know we have traded a lot of pm's about the Luchuirp. Could you start a thread here with your latest ideas so the group can check them out?

Actually, technologies that are only available through posession of an Ancient Temple could be really, really cool.

Anything would make them better than they are now. They're always in jungles which makes putting a city there early in the game simply not worth it.

I like the lizardman popping idea, but see a problem since exploring the temples is quite a ways down the road in the tech tree.

Happiness generating artifacts?

The special techs mentioned above?

I suppose when equipment becomes a going concern, Ancient Temple could give special stuff of the equipment variety.

I suppose when equipment becomes a going concern, Ancient Temple could give special stuff of the equipment variety.


Thats a good point ;)

Furthermore i like the Lizzardman attraction

How about we merge all of these ideas and have them be midgame goodie huts (midgame because you will need to clear the jungles before you can explore them).

1. In the begining they will be lizardman spawning points, starting at about turn 100 with a chance to spawn a lizardman every few turns if they arent inside cultural borders and there isn't a non-barbarian unit on the tile.

2. These chance of spawnign a lizardman will increase as the game goes on.

3. Exploring the temple will have a random chance to:

[tab]a. pop minor demons or a monster
[tab]b. unique gifted monster
[tab]c. bonus research
[tab]d. mana source
[tab]e. unit teleported to another temple.

As I look at this I cant help but think that are resally just another set of goody huts. The unique tech is a good idea, but what would it do?

Im thinking maybe the anicent temples will be improved enough if we just let multiple ones have an effect (right now there is no advantage to having more than 1). What if the casters got a combat promotion for each ancient temple they had access to, so if they had 3 they would start with combat I, combat II and combat III?

What if the casters got a combat promotion for each ancient temple they had access to, so if they had 3 they would start with combat I, combat II and combat III?

Would this make casters more likely to get chosen as defenders in a stack? I hate it when that happens!

Would this make casters more likely to get chosen as defenders in a stack? I hate it when that happens!

I could just modify the get best defender function to only count casters as half as tough as they actually are. I already have a check in that makes those with the "Guardsman" promotion act as if they are 50% tougher than they are.

Or I could just give a minor negative per level of the defender, so all things being equal higher level units tend to be protected.

Chalid, what are your thoughts?

Hmm im thinking about this for some time too. We would need to do several things.

I would try to simply make mage automatically the worst defender. The only thing that should be a more worse defender is a level 8+ Unit with below 50% LP. The problem is usually you do want your highest level unit to defend. Only not if the chances to survive are below 80% ...

But we have to do some things for high level units for sure. The AI should never suicide a Hero or Level 8+ unit but only attack with those if it has good chaces for success. I'd say 70%+2% per level above Level 5 should be the threshold for experienced units.
I have already some changes that work in that direction but did not submit them yet.

As we have now tons of stuff i would say we try to do packaged releases.

When we have Verified that 0.12 is free of major bugs we should releas a version that only contains changes in the SDK. The next version will only be phython changes and so forth. That will allow us to easier find bugs than when we add things on all edges.

Hmm im thinking about this for some time too. We would need to do several things.

I would try to simply make mage automatically the worst defender. The only thing that should be a more worse defender is a level 8+ Unit with below 50% LP. The problem is usually you do want your highest level unit to defend. Only not if the chances to survive are below 80% ...

But we have to do some things for high level units for sure. The AI should never suicide a Hero or Level 8+ unit but only attack with those if it has good chaces for success. I'd say 70%+2% per level above Level 5 should be the threshold for experienced units.
I have already some changes that work in that direction but did not submit them yet.

As we have now tons of stuff i would say we try to do packaged releases.

When we have Verified that 0.12 is free of major bugs we should releas a version that only contains changes in the SDK. The next version will only be phython changes and so forth. That will allow us to easier find bugs than when we add things on all edges.

Its easy enough to isolate out if issues are python or SDK problems, that doesn't worry me.

Im more worried about isolating it inside the SDK. When we have proven that it is a CvCoreGameDLL.dll issue and getting to the root of it. On that front I would like to make sure we more forward conservativly.

I don't like having the releases be as frequent as they have been, I have only been doing that to fix major issues, as you mentiond. Im hoping that .12 will be stable enough that we can let it sit and we can go to public updates every 3-4 weeks.

I really like your ideas to modify the best defender and attacking ai changes. Definitly something we want to get added.

Hmm I have lots of ideas about this thing. Can we create a new thread about it? (by this is mean defender selection modifiers)

Go on with it loki ;)

what are the effects of ancient temple currently?

Actually they were cut in Fire.

why were they cut?

We ran out of bonus slots (you can only have 50 with the current gamefont file). I need to get a new gamefont file so we can grow outside of that limit.

That and Im just not exictied about what they used to do.

I once had an idea about making ancient temples and ruins be linked somehow. After the lizardman-spawning ruins were destroyed, they'd become ancient temples. Sort of a balance to starting by a bunch of 3/2 barbarian recon units.

Some ideas for them:

Only heros can explore them. When explored, they provide a special promotion or a random effect.

You have to sacrafice 10-attack worth of units on it to get its special effect.

Possible special effects: huge hoard of gold, new tech, special resource (happiness), special combat promotion, special unit only available from here, etc...

OR perhaps every temple you have gives you a +10% on all ritual production, or all tower production or some such...

what about a unique mana source instead of a random one, possibly tied to the aforementioned dead god, ice mana for example, which might not fit with the current game but is offered only as an example.

or perhaps a unique set of spells, lost arcane knowledge, possibly also tied into the dead god. Personally i think it would be cool if they were spells which had multiple requirements, what i mean is not just water 1, or air 1, but water 1 and air 1.

anyway, just my two cents.

We ran out of bonus slots (you can only have 50 with the current gamefont file). I need to get a new gamefont file so we can grow outside of that limit.

Since everybody really seems to dislike the Fort and can never agree on how to fix it so it is worth building by both human and ai player why not cut that to keep the ancient temple instead?

What about a religious mark of the dead god that would replace any other religious mark the unit currently has. This would represent converting a unit to the forgotten cult. The player would have an option to convert any unit that enters the temple (or is a % chance better?).
The mark could give a special bonus, in line with the mythos of the ice god, what I can think of is:
+20% Strength (on top of Combat promotions) or
+1 cold damage or
cold and death resistance or
Ice for disciple units


Anybody likes this?

What about a religious mark of the dead god that would replace any other religious mark the unit currently has. This would represent converting a unit to the forgotten cult. The player would have an option to convert any unit that enters the temple (or is a % chance better?).
The mark could give a special bonus, in line with the mythos of the ice god, what I can think of is:
+20% Strength (on top of Combat promotions) or
+1 cold damage or
cold and death resistance or
Ice for disciple units


Anybody likes this?

This could be very nice, specially now that we have to put out so many fires.
I find them very nice as they are, because the +6 gold per tile. But they can obviously be improved.

Ancient Temples could be a mechanism for unlocking a mid or late game exploration area. In addition to retreating glaciers, you could have a "Valley of Winter" area which can only be unlocked\unfrozen with an item you have retrieved from the dead god's temple.

I'm guessing that concepts like these have already been discussed for a later phase; just noting that the ancient temple would be a good home for key-type items.

I always thought they should provide a tech that is not researchable, like some type of lost cult tech (could provide the ability to make special temples in your cities) or some type of weapon or magic tech which would provide a new unit no one else could build.

If you go the mana node route, you could make it a type of node that would be normally not buildable but would open up a new list of spells for your casters.

You could give the exploring unit with a random special transferable promotion similar to the orthus's axe. This goes along with the mid-level goody hut approach, but changes the effect a bit.
- Wand of Fireballs or Metors
- Orb of Skeleton summoning, wraith command, etc...
- Sword of slaying (+ vs a type).
- Invisibilty Ring
- Defensive Gauntlets (+0/+2)
- Ring of regeneration (march promo)
- Book of learning (read for +n XP)
These all mix up the promotions a bit. It would allow for example a ranger to heal while moving. Or a warrior to cast fireball. But I know that the items are due in a later version, so I can understand not implementing that now.

I really like the idea of a special disiple unit noted above. Maybe buildable only if the ancient temple is in the radius of the city. This meshes nicely with the ancient temple to an old god idea. If it is tied to the city radius, it makes having more than one a nice benefit.

What if access to Ancient Temples allowed all of your Disciple units to gain XP the same way casters gain XP? This would model the learning and lore found within the temples.

prehaps you could add a special spell if a mage is on the temple or something

EDIT: wow people posted so fast that by the time i wfinished writing this there were at least 8 more posts

Why not have a few different effects based on the player's actions.

Destroying the temple could give the unit exp.
Concecrating the temple could make it usabe as a tile bonus (perhaps bonus gold if worked).
Studying the temple could give a free tech.
Melee units could become a champion of the fallen god (+1 special damage, hero promotion, and ancient religion).
Divine casters could renounce their faith and become a priest of the fallen god (new unique unit type).
Sorcerery casters could gain a new spell or magic sphere.
Summoners could summon (imagine that) an acient creature, perhaps with a random chance of being different tier units or even a barbarian unit that would attack the summoner.

Taking any action would render the temple useless to units that come later (only one action per temple). The player should also have the option to take no action so that they can guard the temple and bring a unit of a different type if they want to.

Since everybody really seems to dislike the Fort and can never agree on how to fix it so it is worth building by both human and ai player why not cut that to keep the ancient temple instead?Forts are improvements.
Temples were resources.

i think the temples should be somethink like sheut stone. at first itll say just "Ancient Temple" but after exploring it, itll tell you which god the temple belongs to and give a bonus just like sheut stone. So "Temple of Bhall" will give fire bonus, "Temple of Tali" gives a lightening bonus, "Temple of Mulcarn" gives cold bonus....

I like that idea, but it wouldn't make programming any easier. They would still need to find a way around the 50 resource limit, and the extra promotion could get unnecesarily complicated. If there were 1 per diety, a strength bonus of +21 would be too much. Also, there are not yet damage types thst would fit well for each of them. It might be better if there was only a chance of the promotion and each unit could get only one, similar to the religius promotions.

i didnt think there would be 21 different damage types. that wouldnt make sense. i mean how could you do creation damage? i thought just have the few types of damage there are now and then have temples for the god that those types of damage are under like i said earlier.

I was kinda kidding about the +21 damage. You could do creation damage by creating something dangerous near (or even within) the target, but that is a bit of a stretch. Still, multiple gods' powers could be in the same catigory. My point was that a unit should not be able to have the strength bunuses from the temples of multiplegods. Even a +5 bonus could be a little unbalancing. It might also be nice if the normal religious promotions had more of an effect than determining if a unit will serve Hyborem or Basium.

maybe it could just give it to the units that explore it with a max of like 3 or 5 units exist with the promotion at a time.

I think ancient temples could give bonusses to cities with temples of the state religion(like brevery gives you happiness if you have access to rice) or some tech that could allow a new civic. GPP bonus for prophets could also be nice or already suggested 10% ritual production.

Anyone read Robert Jordan Wheel of time series?

How about making Ancient Temples like non-city based airbases?

A unit on an ancient temple could be given the option of rebasing (teleporting) to either 1) a random uncontrolled ancient temple, or 2)a known uncontrolled ancient temple.

Controlled = enemy units present.

Perhaps they could even attack through ancient temples to other ancient temples...

eh, just pipedreams I suppose...

I really like that idea. It does duplicate an existing effect (air-lifting), but it gives it at a time when you're still a long way from the tech, and it is limited by the random placement of the temple resource.

- Niilo

no offense meant, but monster pops seem alittle..... BLAH :)

What about something ala Galactic Civilizations, where when you explore you get a chance of building a random unique wonder (or perhaps a unique tech)... But there is a catch: You have a choice between making a good, neutral, or evil version of it.

An example would be a magic mind control device.

Good civilizations: using it against members of our faith would be evil! We must use it as a means to convert the enemy into seeing the "error of their ways". Provides nationwide culture bonus and worldwide unhappiness.

Neutral: What an interesting way of making money! Provides +1 free trade agreement and bonus cash per city.

Evil: What an effective way to abuse our people! Provides small bonus of all city benefits (food, production, cash, etc)

Either have the civilization decide before or after they can see what type they could get. Depending on which moral choice they make, their alignment will change in that direction.

You could implement a unique wonder by having 3 unique techs per possible event.

One of the biggest things I liked about Galactic Civilizations was these random moral choices!

It would definately make finding an ancient temple exciting.

One of the biggest things I liked about Galactic Civilizations was these random moral choices!

Yes, but that choices were there to determine your alligment. Here you start with it plus the religions are also a strong-aligment bound. We would not need random moral choices here, not for moral choices anyway.

On top on that that game sucked so do not bring it up here :P

Well, barring lifting every effect one got from the monoliths in SMAC, how about having the ability to rededicate the temples to the God of your religion, with the corresponding bonii to be gained when a unit stands on it, or maybe have it specifically affect the city whose sphere of influence it falls under. Halimbawa ('Example' for you philistines ;)) the ruins are rededicated to Kilmorph, the city experiences a slight mining productivity boost, or the soldiers gain a slight strength boost when they spend a turn in the temple.

As for Cassiel, we could give his inquisitors the ability to rededicate the temples to more down to earth endeavours, like acting as a way-station for soldiers (healing)...

_Valis;5177347']Yes, but that choices were there to determine your alligment. Here you start with it plus the religions are also a strong-aligment bound. We would not need random moral choices here, not for moral choices anyway.

On top on that that game sucked so do not bring it up here :P

Which brings me to another pet peeve I have about religions. You should be able to play an evil leaves or order religion!

Why can't I play a xenophobic genocidal type of civilization that wants to destroy all civilizations and revert the world back to nature before civilizations were around!

Sounds like it would be a very evil way of taking leaves and worthy of the evil status.

Why can't I play a xenophobic genocidal type of civilization that wants to destroy all civilizations and revert the world back to nature before civilizations were around!

Sounds like it would be a very evil way of taking leaves and worthy of the evil status.

You can do this! Leaves has no alignment requirements at all. if you are evil before you switch to Leaves you will be while you are as well. You can be the evil, xenophobic, treehugging, genocidal, manic you want to be!

I rather like the monolith idea - either sacrificing a minor disciple unit or having a later one 'work' the tile could rededicate the monolith/temple to the appropriate religion (via different improvements - is it possible to have the same resource collected by different improvements? If not you could fudge it by changing the resource at the same time, which would make altering the benefits of them easier too) with bonuses for various things - extra yield if it's in the radius of a city with the same religion, happiness, health etc etc.

Great idea, Beef... But I think that would make the problem with the limit on the amount of different resources even worse. However, I think that is definetely a way to go.

On a side not (And a bit of-topic) why not have something similar for mana? Have a worked mana shrine be good for something as a used terrain, or else they become dead terrain just like desert (Only you cant make them useful with magic...)

There's a cap on the number of resources? Wasn't aware of that - that'd complicate the implementation then :(

A unit on an ancient temple could be given the option of rebasing (teleporting) to either 1) a random uncontrolled ancient temple, or 2)a known uncontrolled ancient temple.

Controlled = enemy units present

I like this idea....although it would have to recognize open borders

Also, I like the idea of temples popping a midgame barbarian monster/hero that has a unique item (there could be 7 of them ;) ) They should be zero movement and have the hero promotion, so eventually they grab mobility one and wander off to pillage the country-side.

Once the temple is explored, the monster is defeated/causing havoc somewher else, an adept or disciple could consecrate/dedicate the ruins (sacrifices the unit) to grant XP to all units of that type built by the civ. This could also affect the AC if order/veil units are sacrificed, and adds a cumulative/dynamic XP effect. Not sure if this would be defined through a resource function or could auto build an improvement in a random 12+ pop city.

I also like the idea of a cleared temple becoming a resource that allows a wonder tied to religion or alignment. Too bad resources are capped.

My crazy idea is to sacrifice a hero at the cleared ruins for building a World Wonder (ala Shrine of the Champion) that summons/binds an avatar of one of the gods of the FFH Pantheon. Sacrifice a hero + Build a wonder = Get better hero! Just hope another player/AI doesn't beat you to it!

There's a cap on the number of resources? Wasn't aware of that - that'd complicate the implementation then :(

Well, there is kind of a cap on resources. Its dependant on a sort of index file of some sort. The only problem is that I think the ffh team is using the original, and it only has 50 "slots"(I think those have to include Improvements, but not sure on that). Anyway, I beleive Greenmod used a bigger file(it certianly seemed like there were a million resources there!), and pretty sure Kael mentioned that a bigger one will be implimented in the near future.

Anyway, on the topic of the temples, I rather don't mind it "copying" the tribal hut mechanics and allow exploring the temples to pop different things. It could be spiced up by making them different than the tribal huts. EX, instead of Hostil Villagers, they'd be trapped demons or some other unique monsters. Since this will be later in the game, make the gold pops be significantly larger. Giving unique Promotions to the explorer, or even unique Techs that only can be gained from the temples all work for me. certainly similar to getting bumps earlier from tribal villages(in mechanics), but different results can make it worth it... and making them enterances to quests or equipment in later stages of development, would be the ultimate goal I think.
Anyway.. thats my thoughts on it...

Cheers!

I like the idea of making them into dungeons.

Only certain units can explore them. They do damage, which might be enough to kill a unit, almost certainly weak units.

Exploration, and survival nets:
Treasure Type H.
Maybe a decent amount of gold, some beakers, experience, an item (once implemented), some crazy random unit... any and all of these things.