Kael and I have been working on the Luchuirp.
However, we haven't gotten anything conclusive, so here are all of the ideas we've been discussing. Please comment on them and add your own.

Golems. These guys will be the mainstay of the Luchuirp army. I'm thinking that most if not all of the Luchuirp t4 units will be golems. These guys would be differentiated by strength, and also starting bonuses. For example, what if each mana node gave golems a promotion? This would make them stronger, or give other bonuses.

Some more golem ideas:
An ability allowing you to combine two golems of the same type into a new one with increased strength.

A golem that acted as a familiar for archmages. (familiars are linked to specific archmages and allow the archmages to cast spells "through" the familiars, thus increasing their range. The caster must be in a city and use an ability to start casting through their familiar. ie: a fireball casting by a "trance" archmage would appear on the same square as their familiar.

On a different topic, I have another ideas:
a) The Luchuirp are able to produce magical "items" in the form of resources. Scattered throughout the techtree would be maybe 8 different chances for
them to "create" some enchanted resources (a luchurip only wonder would produce them) For example, with astronomy they could build a wonder (pretty cheaply) that gave them the "Ship's Clock' (a device used to accurately measure time and speed, thus needed to navigate accurately.) It would require water mana as well as enchantment. This would give 3 of the ship's clock's resources, each giving "All ships start with navigation I". Of course, tradeable to other civs. (i know that ship's clock is a lame example, but if you like this idea i'm sure we can think of more interesting resources.)

What if each golem got a starting bonus based on the mana nodes you controlled?

They can destroy improved mana nodes with golems that can then be used to build a building in a luchurip city that gives 2 of that node.

Or by bringing a golem to a mana node it can upgrade itself. Maybe getting a slight strength bonus plus a bonus based on the node?
Or perhaps golems on mana node (or cities with mana nodes from my earlier suggestion) could cast the level 1 sor spell of that sphere.
Maybe golems could "improve" raw mana into sphere mana?
What if two golems of the same type could merge into another with 1.5*times the strength? Only on a mana node maybe?
Or perhaps whena golem died in combat it could be revived in the next few turns by a Luchurip spellcaster?

Perhaps ancient temples could have a different function for the Luchuirp than anyone else. Instead of giving all the adepts combat I, it could give all the golems combat one?

Thanks for the help.

I guess for me to be of any help I need to ask....are golems animated stuff or machines? If they are living breathing things then re-animation after death would be a different feature. If they are machine then we might be going steampunk, but that would give the Luichurp some kick. Copper, Iron, Steel, ect golems that get defeated could be fixed by engineers or scrapped for spare parts somehow? Maybe defeated units can be transported back to have something done with them?

It kind of sounds, after reading your comments, that you're trying real hard to make these guys fun/unique. Maybe trying too hard? I can see mana being a factor if these guys are being animated in a magician's shop. I'm just not sure how yet...

I guess for me to be of any help I need to ask....are golems animated stuff or machines? If they are living breathing things then re-animation after death would be a different feature. If they are machine then we might be going steampunk, but that would give the Luichurp some kick. Copper, Iron, Steel, ect golems that get defeated could be fixed by engineers or scrapped for spare parts somehow? Maybe defeated units can be transported back to have something done with them?

It kind of sounds, after reading your comments, that you're trying real hard to make these guys fun/unique. Maybe trying too hard? I can see mana being a factor if these guys are being animated in a magician's shop. I'm just not sure how yet...

They are enchanters, so the golems are dead objects animated by magic. They aren't steampunk but are the closest we have to machinists, inventors and tinkers.

You may be right abotu trying to hard ot make them fun. We dont need a big flashy mechanic, but we do need something to differentiate them. Right now we have the golems (which is more of a penalty than a bonus) and the buildings that grant promotions to their golems (which are cool but could probably be improved).

I want the Luchuirp to support a different play style (in the end thats the goal for each of the civs, that they play different). The Luchurip should be the opposite of the Doviello, where the Doviello can skip buildings and go straight to their units, the Luchuirp should have a heavy reliance on their city buildings. They should be the closest we have to a "build your own unit" function. And if we want to test Colonization type mechanics this is the civ to do it in.

If you want the Luchuirp to have a heavy reliance on buildings why not also give them more bonuses when creating buildings? If they need specific buildings to make their golems then make it cheaper to make the buildings if they have certain resources. Right now it costs an arm and a leg to build the prereq buildings and then even more for the golem than normal units. If you pick a resource (Ancient Temple, mana, an ore) and give them 50% cost reduction on buildings that would ease the cost of the buildings.

I don't know, off the top of my head, the various buildings they need, but I would think you could dangle a carrot in front of the players and AI by giving this sort of bonus if they have resources. No other civ gets this cheap building potential so it might make them more unique?

I like Woodelf's idea of making buildings cheaper with resources, I think maybe Body Mana or Earth Mana would be good resources to make Golem-producing buildings cheaper.

A thought: What if golems healed a little bit when a golem in their stack gets killed, and when they pillaged an improvement, kind of like sticking bits that have fallen off on again?

I like Woodelf's idea of making buildings cheaper with resources, I think maybe Body Mana or Earth Mana would be good resources to make Golem-producing buildings cheaper.

Good examples. :)

A thought: What if golems healed a little bit when a golem in their stack gets killed, and when they pillaged an improvement, kind of like sticking bits that have fallen off on again?

Maybe a new promotion for a magic user that if he is accompanying a golem and this happens the golem does heal? Instead of Medic you get Re-animation I and II? I'm not sure the golems themselves should be able to do it. But if the AI can't figure it out to have the mage alongside then having the golem get that ability would be a good compromise.

Here some random idears of me:

-How about giving an unique golem workshop to the lurchip that is available much earlier

-as Loki said, more different golem types. Eg: Wooden Golem that has the drowns ability to water walk. A golem for each of the mineralic resources stone/marple,copper,iron,gems are in, gold is missing (that one could be a spellcaster, or completly immume to magic). A pearl golem (yes you have to trade them).

-Access to mithril could give a free promotion to the iron golem.

-Furthermore the customization options of the lurchip should be further increased.
Standard buildings could upgrade the golems. For example the siege workshop could give the bombard ability to golems. The blacksmith could give a combat promotion. And so forth.

- some more different upgradebuildings for the Lurchip Golem Workshop would also be nice. Those upgrades could give: Regeneration (March,+10%Heal), CityDefense

-Maybe a uniqe Lurchip T4 spellcaster (national unit or even worls unit) that starts with graft flesh.

-Uniqe Spell that allows combination of golems with living units.

Here some random idears of me:

-How about giving an unique golem workshop to the lurchip that is available much earlier

Brilliant! I think they should start with a basic builder shop very early as well. Maybe some cheap early golems that aren't very good. (Shows an attempt to learn how to manufacture/create a golem.) Are buildings upgradeable in FfH? If so this one could upgrade to the real golem workshop or at least lower the cost somehow.

-as Loki said, more different golem types. Eg: Wooden Golem that has the drowns ability to water walk. A golem for each of the mineralic resources stone/marple,copper,iron,gems are in, gold is missing (that one could be a spellcaster, or completly immume to magic). A pearl golem (yes you have to trade them).

If you have wooden then I would think Fire would get a healthy bonus on them. Same with lightning on the ores. (Do we have a lightning spell?). Also we could make it real complicated and have stone/marble get bonuses against blade weapons, but now hammers. I'm thinking the blades will bounce off, but hammers could crack the golems. Far fetched, but we're brainstorming!

-Furthermore the customization options of the lurchip should be further increased.
Standard buildings could upgrade the golems. For example the siege workshop could give the bombard ability to golems. The blacksmith could give a combat promotion. And so forth.

Nice ideas.

I like the idea of customization of golems through city improvements. So golem doesn't level, but instead get a set amount of promotions right when they are built, depending on which improvements existed in the city at the time.

I think we could have some of the basic buildings increase their general power in some areas(Forge = combat I, for example), while more specialized powers(spells, bombardment) will be obtained from various upgrades to the Golem Workshop, which will in many, but not all, cases exclude eachother, so you can't make one city the über-golem workshop. One city might specialize in creating fast, lightly equipped golems with some magickal powers, while others focus on brute force, with large and lumbering killing machines. It would also make the decision about where to build The Mithril Golem an interesting one.

Sounds good, so we just need the specifics. So far we have:

1. Mud Golem (replaces worker)- Worker
2. Stone Golem (replaces axeman)- basic attacker
3. Iron Golem (replaces pikeman)- improved attacker
4. Nullstone Golem (replaces shieldwall)- immune to magic
5. Arcane Golem (replaces sparatoi)- powered by entropy, summons imps

Adding in your ideas we could go to:

1. Mud Golem (replaces worker)
2. Wood Golem (replaces axeman)- vulnerable to fire, doesnt require any resources (i don't like giving them water walking as we already have enough stuff that does that)
3. Gargoyle (replaces pikeman, requires stone or marble)
4. Iron Golem (replaces maceman, requires iron)
5. Nullstone Golem (replaces shieldwall, requires stone or marble)- immune to magic
6. Arcane Golem (replaces sparatoi, requires stone or marble)- powered by entropy, summons imps
7. Bone Golem (replaces immortal, requires ivory)- need a flavor mechanic
8. Clockwork Golem (replaces berserker, requires iron, machinery tech and machinests shop)- powerful but has a chance of breaking down each turn and being unuseable for anything but defense

Outside of the Luchuirp we also have the:

1. Copper Golem- golem available for everyone.
2. Flesh Golem- created by the Graft Flesh spell.
3. Runeguard (requires gems)- Runes of Kilmorph unit

Current buildings are:

1. Blasting Workshop- gives the ability to cast Fireball to all golems made here, requires fire mana
2. Armament Molds- gives the Heavy promotion (increased iCombat, decreased move)
3. Velox Workshop- decreased iCombat, increased move, slight withdrawal chance


Based on this thread we could add:

1. Blasting Workshop- gives the ability to cast Fireball to all golems made here, requires fire mana
2. Armament Molds- gives the Heavy promotion (increased iCombat, decreased move)
3. Velox Workshop- decreased iCombat, increased move, slight withdrawal chance
4. Forge- Combat I promotion for free if a Forge is present
5. ?- Building that gives City Defense?
6. ?- Building that gives the Guardman promotion?
7. Assembly Halls- Buildling that boosts golem production?
8. ?- Early golem workshop

Hmm... a Bone Golem requires the Boneworks(Or Bonewerkz, if someone's played Abe's Exodus...) building, which gives unhealthiness and unhappiness, but the golem is quite powerful, and may be able to use Death Magic/Empowered somehow if you have a Death Node. Or perhaps that's a bit too evil for the Luchuirp?

Buildings for golems:

Assembly Halls: +40% golem production, but all other golem promotion buildings are blocked.

Animated Walls: City Garrison promotion

Chemical Workshop: Golems are slightly weaker, but spreads the "poisoned" condition to stacks they attack, and also gives small health degeneration to living units sharing their tile.

Caverns of Arcane Craftsmanship(I really suck at names...:) ): Golems get the basic spell for each mana node in your control, just like a newly trained adept would. They can't aquire the more powerful spells.


Another possible feature would be to add an "Engineer" unit to the Luchuirp. These would be in charge of golem maintenance, and might be able to confer certain bonuses to golems in the form of temporary promotions, as well as performing field repair, increasing heal rate(perhaps remove natural healing completely from golems, and make engineers the only way to do it? While realistic, that might be too annoying...). Engineers should be very weak in direct combat, useless without their golem protectors. They might also be needed to rewind the Clockwork Golem.

Possibly we could reserve the "Repair yourself" effect for the Bone Golem, but allow him to repair himself from all units killed near him, not just other Golems? Basically, he takes bits of defeated foes and friends alike, and fixes himself up with them.

Oh, just one more thing I thought about, unless someone's already pointed it out: the Mud Golem is much, much slower to build since it doesn't eat food, that gives the Luichurp an early-game disadvantage that seems rather unwarranted. Maybe decrease the shield cost of Mud Golems? After all, they're pretty easy to make. Either that, or give them a defence value, so there is some point to the extra cost.

That's a good start on making these guys more unique. Let's see how they play now. :)

A couple a comments/questions/ideas/sarcastic remarks.

1. What if the mud golem replaced the warrior instead of the worker. It would still work at double the speed, but would be combat as well. The Luchuirp could build workers like anyone else, but perhaps with a national limit? Or perhaps no workers? Just mud golems?
2. Iron golems. I really like these guys so i think they deserve a spot. How about as golems available to all?
3. What about having gargoyles in as golems? I think of them as very similar to golems. Perhaps some gargoyles could be included as a UU with a large city defense bonus?
4. for buildings: I like the forge thing.
-How about a building that gives all golems spellcsting abilities? One that makes them start with chanelling one. They would gain no experience, so start with the spells they have apon building. That would make mana nodes more important for the Luchuirp. Can't think of a name but i like the mechanic.
-Soul Foundry (a place where they take souls from victims and put them in the golems to make them more powerful). Only useable by evil Luchuirp civs. Golems built in this city can gain XP (and promotions).
-Consecration altar (a building that is opposite soul foundry). Only buildable by good Luchuirp civs. Golems start with demon slaying promotion and blessed.
5. There is a limit of two golem buildings per city. One two have been built no more can be.

What do you'all think?

Ooops just noticed that corindale just posted the idea about the spellcasting golems. Drat! Oh well, great minds think alike.

I like gargoyles and I like the 2 golem buildings per city as well.

I like the rest, but those two things stand out. :D

I like gargoyles and I like the 2 golem buildings per city as well.

I like the rest, but those two things stand out. :D

Gargoyles would be nice but we have to ask Chalid if he can make a new model, i think he's the only one (with Kael) that is able to do a nice complex animated creature.

It would be nice if he can make a stand animation of a flying gargoyle and a fortify position on ground in his "stone" form like this
http://www.xenomorphe.ch/photos/image-10-gargouille.jpg

We can also reskin and resize a dragon for a temporary solution.

BTW : After all the dragons skins, the lizardman and maybe after some dwarf, i'll probably start to work on a new golem model

A couple a comments/questions/ideas/sarcastic remarks.

1. What if the mud golem replaced the warrior instead of the worker. It would still work at double the speed, but would be combat as well. The Luchuirp could build workers like anyone else, but perhaps with a national limit? Or perhaps no workers? Just mud golems?


Uhm, yeah, I probably should have noticed that Mud Golems improve twice as fast. Ignore my last post:blush:

Btw, I think that Bone golem's flavor mechanic should be healing when any other golems in the nearby squares dies.

Btw, I think that Bone golem's flavor mechanic should be healing when any other golems in the nearby squares dies.

Other golems or living units? It seems like a Bone Golem wouldn't have much to salvage from the body of an iron golem, but the bones of a troop of soldiers might be pretty tasty.

Hmm... a Bone Golem requires the Boneworks(Or Bonewerkz, if someone's played Abe's Exodus...) building, which gives unhealthiness and unhappiness, but the golem is quite powerful, and may be able to use Death Magic/Empowered somehow if you have a Death Node. Or perhaps that's a bit too evil for the Luchuirp?

Buildings for golems:

Assembly Halls: +40% golem production, but all other golem promotion buildings are blocked.

I like the function but I dont like that it blocks other golem buildings (it forces players to remember to build it last). This building should be pretty expensive though.

Remember the fun of playing the luchuirp is to build these cities that are sutffed full of buildings. They are for our builder players (and are the oppositie of the doviello players who want to skip city infrastrucutre entirely and get straight to the units) and we dont want to limit their ability to build.

Animated Walls: City Garrison promotion

Chemical Workshop: Golems are slightly weaker, but spreads the "poisoned" condition to stacks they attack, and also gives small health degeneration to living units sharing their tile.

I have thought about poison a few times but im having trouble coming up with a different mechanic for it than disease. Maybe I will give it a chance to wear off every turn (and of course it wouldn't spread through combat like disease?).

Caverns of Arcane Craftsmanship(I really suck at names...:) ): Golems get the basic spell for each mana node in your control, just like a newly trained adept would. They can't aquire the more powerful spells.

We have this at a greatly reduced rate on the Arcane Golem. The Arcane Golem can summon imps. Imps gain random spells, so effectivly the arcane golem has access to a wide range of spells. I thought about making it more as you suggest but I think it becomes unbalancing.

Another possible feature would be to add an "Engineer" unit to the Luchuirp. These would be in charge of golem maintenance, and might be able to confer certain bonuses to golems in the form of temporary promotions, as well as performing field repair, increasing heal rate(perhaps remove natural healing completely from golems, and make engineers the only way to do it? While realistic, that might be too annoying...). Engineers should be very weak in direct combat, useless without their golem protectors. They might also be needed to rewind the Clockwork Golem.

I love the flavor, but like you say the function would require micromanagement. Maybe Chalid could slip an animation on the Clockwork Golem where a dwarf winds him up before he moves.

A couple a comments/questions/ideas/sarcastic remarks.

1. What if the mud golem replaced the warrior instead of the worker. It would still work at double the speed, but would be combat as well. The Luchuirp could build workers like anyone else, but perhaps with a national limit? Or perhaps no workers? Just mud golems?

I have an ai problem when i give workers combat ability. The AI doesn't run with them (even with the exact same ai scripts assigned) and they become very easy to capture. Also this means that the Luchuirp "warrior" would cost 100 instead of 25. Which would be a huge limitation for the Luchuirp.

I was thinking about starting the Luchuirp out with a Mud Golem and a Scout instead of a Warrior and a Scout. What do you guys think?

2. Iron golems. I really like these guys so i think they deserve a spot. How about as golems available to all?

I didn't even realize that they didnt make the new list. Ill put them in instead of the marble golem and have all of the stone requiring golems require either stone or marble (so they arent as handicapped if they cant get stone).

3. What about having gargoyles in as golems? I think of them as very similar to golems. Perhaps some gargoyles could be included as a UU with a large city defense bonus?

Sounds good, how about we use it instead of the stone golem. I think the name has more flavor and i would certainly be more interested to see the model.

4. for buildings: I like the forge thing.
-How about a building that gives all golems spellcsting abilities? One that makes them start with chanelling one. They would gain no experience, so start with the spells they have apon building. That would make mana nodes more important for the Luchuirp. Can't think of a name but i like the mechanic.

I just worry about 10 str casters running around. A big golem walking around defiling or scorching tiles that cant be marksmen could be infuriating for other players.

-Soul Foundry (a place where they take souls from victims and put them in the golems to make them more powerful). Only useable by evil Luchuirp civs. Golems built in this city can gain XP (and promotions).
-Consecration altar (a building that is opposite soul foundry). Only buildable by good Luchuirp civs. Golems start with demon slaying promotion and blessed.
5. There is a limit of two golem buildings per city. One two have been built no more can be.

What do you'all think?

Ooops just noticed that corindale just posted the idea about the spellcasting golems. Drat! Oh well, great minds think alike.

Soul foundry makes the Bestow Vitae spell usless and we already have wonders that grant blessed and demon slaying to all units.

Starting with a mud golem seems a bit strong.

How about allowing an dwarfen farmer of something. He can only built mines and farmes but is very cheap. This guy could even be buildable, without taking to much from the golem. Maybe available with agriculture or mining?

Other golems or living units? It seems like a Bone Golem wouldn't have much to salvage from the body of an iron golem, but the bones of a troop of soldiers might be pretty tasty.

Yeah of course i don't know what i was thinking when i posted that.

Starting with a mud golem seems a bit strong.

How about allowing an dwarven farmer of something. He can only built mines and farmes but is very cheap. This guy could even be buildable, without taking too much from the golem. Maybe available with agriculture or mining?

Yeah i like this idea.

Also the dwarven farmer would build at 75%, to encourage using mud golems instead.

I just worry about 10 str casters running around. A big golem walking around defiling or scorching tiles that cant be marksmen could be infuriating for other players.

I don't think this will be much of a problem. By the time we get that building (mid to late game) the lvl 1 spells the golems have access to will not be that dangerous. Also, golems have a +33% chance of defending a stack, so they will still be easy to kill, just not with marksmen.

What if engineer's shop gave all golems built in that city mobility I?

What if engineer's shop gave all golems built in that city mobility I?

The Velox Workshop already gives the light promotion, which boosts movement.

I tried a game as the Luchuirp, but gave up when everyone kicked my butt. Playing a quick game I founded the Runes, but can't build Dwarven soldiers, can't build a barracks, and can only build Mud Golems in turn 130. :confused:

When do they get military units? I didn't go for Archery or Hunting so I have no idea if those techs would have aided me. The lack of Dwarven soldiers was odd as was no military golems yet.

I tried a game as the Luchuirp, but gave up when everyone kicked my butt. Playing a quick game I founded the Runes, but can't build Dwarven soldiers, can't build a barracks, and can only build Mud Golems in turn 130. :confused:

When do they get military units? I didn't go for Archery or Hunting so I have no idea if those techs would have aided me. The lack of Dwarven soldiers was odd as was no military golems yet.

I want to remove the build blocks on elven archers and dwarven soldiers. I just need new names for them (the only reason the block is there is so players wont get the same named unit listed twice).

The Luchuirp get their early golems from the masonry/construction line, not the bronze working line.

There's no Copper Golem anymore? I'm not in game now so I can't check, but wouldn't that come at Bronze Working? Yikes, they get hammered early on.

There's no Copper Golem anymore? I'm not in game now so I can't check, but wouldn't that come at Bronze Working? Yikes, they get hammered early on.

Copper golem is way late.

So what do they have early on? Did I miss something? Warriors aren't cutting it. :D

A the moment, very little. Don't worry, soon you'll be getting stone golems and such.

Are Stone Golems planned for Masonry? DO they require stone or will stone simply cut the cost in 1/2 when present? Any Marble Golems? Maybe Stone Golems can have either/or?

I believe its either or.

Are Stone Golems planned for Masonry? DO they require stone or will stone simply cut the cost in 1/2 when present? Any Marble Golems? Maybe Stone Golems can have either/or?

There are no marble or stone golems. They are Gargoyles instead. And Gargoyles require either marble or stone.

But the earliest Golem you get is the Wood Golem with Construction.

But the earliest Golem you get is the Wood Golem with Construction.

I had a helluva cash surplus, but no way to defend myself. Maybe they need an early merc unit? Going Archery didn't feel right and Construction is quite a ways down the road.

What about mud golems? Aren't they good at fighting early on? Shouldn't they be?

I didn't think we wanted workers to have combat. The AI forgets to hide them in cities. If they do it isn't any better than a warrior from memory.

I didn't think we wanted workers to have combat. The AI forgets to hide them in cities. If they do it isn't any better than a warrior from memory.

Thats a problem I could solve...

Thats a problem I could solve...

Is that what we want though? Mud Golems would be expensive worker/defender hybrids. I still don't understand why I couldn't build Dwarven Soldiers.

Is that what we want though? Mud Golems would be expensive worker/defender hybrids. I still don't understand why I couldn't build Dwarven Soldiers.

I agree with wood elf, id rather just keep them non-combat.

What if they had two early golems.

Mud golems and Rock golems. The mud golems would be the workers and the rock golems (using that earlier model that kael rejected as stone golem) would be like 3 strength warrior replacements.

Why-
1. This gives them an early game unit that can still be used later in the game. It would tide them over until the wood golems.
2. It would also remove the problem of having warriors upgrade into golems.
3. Also, of course the rock golem would not be upgradeable to archers since golems don't become humans.
4. The rock golems could also cast some basic earth spells.

So long as the Rock requires no resources that's fine.

Of course. How hard is it to find rocks lying around? Especially when you've been livng in caves for 2000 years.

Of course. How hard is it to find rocks lying around? Especially when you've been livng in caves for 2000 years.

:)

Very hard when you want to build the Pyramids I've found.

Civ logic: Rocks are common, but stones are extremely rare.

:rofl:
Good point.
At least the stone golem was renamed to gargoyle, so its all happy now.

I just added the Luchuirp hero in and Im really happy with how they are working now. We may do some refinement when they are in the new tech tree making sure they get new units in a timely manner but I think we did a good job.

Barnaxus is an axeman level unit, a wood golem. He doesn't have the hero promotion. Instead he has 2 abilities.

1. He is a "living" golem, he is able to think, adapt and therefor earn xp and level (as a melee unit).

2. Barnaxus's Combat I - V promotions are shared with all of the golems in his empire.

It was really fun to go out hunting with Barnaxus to build him up and buff my empire. I think the player will enjoy it and it fits the "enchantment" theme well. Killing Barnaxus will be critical to winning a war against the Luchuirp.

That's great to hear. Is the next release internal or 1.3 public?

Barnaxus sounds excellent! Have you done a write-up for him? A write-up for a "living" golem could be quite amusing, I imagine his story would be something like that of the Millenium man (the Asimov story, not the God-awful movie based on it)...

I had a quick idea about bone golems. Bone golems are, in essence, evil. After all, they're based on the remains of dead stuff. How's about making them only buildable if the Luichurp adopt the Veil as state religion. In fact, how about making one unique golem for each state religion?

I had a quick idea about bone golems. Bone golems are, in essence, evil. After all, they're based on the remains of dead stuff. How's about making them only buildable if the Luichurp adopt the Veil as state religion. In fact, how about making one unique golem for each state religion?

A unique golem for each religion sounds cool. What would be the OO one? A seaweed golem? Maybe coral? That would be nifty.

Water Golem? No... Salt! A salt golem, perhaps.
For Leaves it would have to be some kind of hard core wood golem.
Kilmorph should get a gem golem or something similarly precious.
The Order would need a Guardian Golem of some type, maybe not resource-specific.
But this would be a lot of work, peut-être?

Question: Can golems become infected with the Dragon Cult? 'Cause that seems... Kinda wrong. Also, making them immune would give the Luichurp an edge against the Dragon Cult. Dwarves of an artistic disposition are not exactly famous for their close and loving relationship to wyrms.

Barnaxus sounds excellent! Have you done a write-up for him? A write-up for a "living" golem could be quite amusing, I imagine his story would be something like that of the Millenium man (the Asimov story, not the God-awful movie based on it)...

Nope, and his real story isnt all that interesting. One of the most talented enchanters dissapeared forever. No one ever did figure out what happened to him. When they went to check out his place they found Barnaxus, a golem unlike any other that the enchanter had built as a helper.

Feel free to write a new story from scratch for him.

I had a quick idea about bone golems. Bone golems are, in essence, evil. After all, they're based on the remains of dead stuff. How's about making them only buildable if the Luichurp adopt the Veil as state religion. In fact, how about making one unique golem for each state religion?

I dont see the Luchuirp as particuarly religious. Ideally I would love to have a t4 golem for most of the mana types. Because they are enchanters I see that they would be more dependant on mana nodes. But for now what we have is good, I don't want to stretch the art resources to thin.

That's great to hear. Is the next release internal or 1.3 public?

Probably public, is there any advantage to internal releases?

Probably public, is there any advantage to internal releases?

If they catch silly bugs then yes. If you want a wider testing pool then public is the way to go. I didn't think you liked the little patches that are needed the same day of release, that's why I asked.

If they catch silly bugs then yes. If you want a wider testing pool then public is the way to go. I didn't think you liked the little patches that are needed the same day of release, that's why I asked.

Yeah, you are probably right. Lets shoot for the **** for an internal 0.13 and the **** for a public 0.13. Don't commit these dates externally, I don't like missing dates so I like to be 100% before I commit publically about them (im still miffed I had to push 1.0 more than a month).

Aww, that was firaxis' fault, not yours.

Do we need a group hug? :p

Did a little more tweaking with the Luchuirp last night. Someone (I wish I could remember where) noted that there is a design flaw with them. Their adepts start with the enchanted blade spell but are unable to ever cast it since all of their melee units have been replaced with golems.

I thought about it and didn't like being able to cast enchanted blades on golems (who are already enchanted). So I may a new ability, Repair, which you have to have enchantement1 and be a dwarf to use.

Basically Heal was changed to only effect living targets and Repair does the same thing for golems, siege units and ships. I figured exposing it to all dwarves meant the khazad could use it on their big seige units too.

Because I tied it to dwarves I had to make dwarven adepts, so they will no longer be hiring human mages to be the dwarves for them (and we will eventually need a dwarven mage graphic).

I also reduced golems heals rates from 15/10/5% in allied/neutral/enemy territory to 5% regardless of where they are.

Let me know what you guys think.

Those changes sound good. I'm dying to play these civs that have been tweaked!

Do Golems heal faster in cities (i think they should be repaired there).
Never theless the small repair rate will make golems very bad offensive units.

Im no fan of the extra spell for such a basic thing as getting your golems workable again. Especially as the AI won't go the Repairer specifically to the golem.
But does Medic work on golems? if it does not it could be better to simply give the ability to heal golems (increases heal rate) with just enchantment I (something like medic for golems) and make the Dwarfen Adept kind of close combat fighters (with primary UNITAI_ATTACK so that they group with the golems).

Oh and i feel other mages should be able to repair golems as well if we do it per spell. They won"t have golems so it is no problem at all. (And we dont need speciall Dwarfen Adepts)

I'm actually in favour of skipping regeneration for golems completely, but the 5% cut is ok too. Requiring Adepts for maintenance seems very realistic, and I don't think it will weaken the golems too much.
They will be dependent on their mage companions, but I've always felt golems should be that anyway, but more importantly they will be able to heal more quickly than living units if they have someone performing repairs on them, while living armies have to wait for High Priests and Heal for a similar regenerative power. But as always it's hard to form a qualified opinion before we've had the chance to check it out in-game.

I like the idea as well but it will cripple Lurchip AI offensives. That is if we do not speciffically tell the AI to move its adepts with its golems (which would require either a force setting of the unitAI - therfor crippling their adepts or a uniqe unitai for them).

But the more i think of it... other AIs do not heal them as well so it seems ok/they only attach healers if they are of unitai_ATTACK...

How about addding a new unitai Healer that is typically used by disciple units (kind of a variation of the mage AI) and attaches itself to big stacks to keep them with good health (like the player does with his healers). That one would work for the lurchip as well.
And it would not be to difficult to introduce (i could easily slip it in with the mage AI)

I like the idea as well but it will cripple Lurchip AI offensives. That is if we do not speciffically tell the AI to move its adepts with its golems (which would require either a force setting of the unitAI - therfor crippling their adepts or a uniqe unitai for them).

But the more i think of it... other AIs do not heal them as well so it seems ok/they only attach healers if they are of unitai_ATTACK...

How about addding a new unitai Healer that is typically used by disciple units (kind of a variation of the mage AI) and attaches itself to big stacks to keep them with good health (like the player does with his healers). That one would work for the lurchip as well.
And it would not be to difficult to introduce (i could easily slip it in with the mage AI)

Dont worry about it yet. Lets get the function in and working, get playtest feedback and see how we want it before we worry about adjusting the AI.

In the begining if your MageAi can just keep casters in protected stacks I think we will be part of the way there (since the spell will be available when the stack is hurt and Talchas built a Spellflavor in for healing). We can fine tune after that if needed.

Im hoping to release an internal 0.13 candidate Sunday. Do you think you could send me the SDK changes you have Saturday so I can get a build together? After that we will probably be in lockdown (for everything but fixes) until public release on 6/23 (if everything tests well).

I wanted to send the changes today or tomorrow so that you have enough time to get acquainted with them. :D.

The Problem with the Mage Selection groups is that troops in them (mage + 1 or two protectors) do not attack unless they have very good chances (so that the mage is not left alone). So the Offensive Mages do not qualify very well as buffers. And an additional UNITAI for mages might be good for another reason as well... its less predictable.

I wanted to send the changes today or tomorrow so that you have enough time to get acquainted with them. :D.

The Problem with the Mage Selection groups is that troops in them (mage + 1 or two protectors) do not attack unless they have very good chances (so that the mage is not left alone). So the Offensive Mages do not qualify very well as buffers. And an additional UNITAI for mages might be good for another reason as well... its less predictable.

That would be awesome, Im sure everyone would love to dig into testing early. :D

Declassified ;)

Here is another design thread for those interested in seeing how we ended up where we are. Remember this thread started before 0.12 came out so the ideas you see in it are really modeling them to where they are today. Again its interesting to see that it is really a group effort, and we put in tons of good ideas before picking only what we feel is the best for inclusion.

Another interesting thing to note is that the design process for both this and the Kuriotates has nothing to do with the D&D campaign I ran. I really appreciate all of the compliments I get about the world references but you will see from this that we don't design based on the D&D game. We design to make the best mod possible and use the D&D stuff as flavor and a guide, nothing more.

Declassified ;)

:)

Oh, I know that the Rock Golem doesn't require any resources to build, but could it possibly have a halved production time (or some such) if you happen to have stone?

(One of those things that doesn't have a deep design purpose but just cries out to be there for the sake of flavor)

id like to see a Golem catapult crossbreed something that looked like a Large Scorpion

:)

Oh, I know that the Rock Golem doesn't require any resources to build, but could it possibly have a halved production time (or some such) if you happen to have stone?

(One of those things that doesn't have a deep design purpose but just cries out to be there for the sake of flavor)

There is no rock golem. And the golems that require stone or marble (gargoyle, nullstone golem, arcane golem) require those resources so it wouldnt make much sense to speed production with them too.

Maybe for their archery units, if they merit the art work for it, they could use intricate dwarven crossbows. Fewer than the total archery units availible to other civs but with some unique advatage, maybe negating withdraw chance or first strikes. To give them some archers who fit with the tinkers.

possibly, you could give them higher than average strength, but they have a 15% chance to acquire a broken promotion when attacking giving them -50% str. until they have repair cast on them. But I'm sure that that might screw over the ai...

i thought for the archery unit a thorn golem that egts defence bonus for archers and a spike golem which require iron and machine shop to produce golems that are spiked with Iron spikes they both get city garrison bonuses making them like archers

Dwarven Soldiers: Dwarven Cutter, Dwarven Infantry, Dwarven Shock Troop, Battle Dwarf,\
Dwarven Combat Specialist:As above plus, Mountain Born, Rock Born, Earth Born,....Dwarven Skull Taker, Dwarven Cleaver, Dwarven Battle Master, Dwarven Warlord, Mountain Lord,

Golems: Juggernaut,(High level 3 allowed), The Born list above, Termanatrix(uranium/platonium), Cartomisson(prisoncart chested golem that captures enemies and jails them to return home when full), Thunderblade(golem war machine...could explode when destroyed doing damage to everything within 1 tile.
.........Started with names and the last two came to me while writing, maybe you can use something from here, I'll keep at it.......haven't been around recently......continued gaming when I can, though.......Maybe Heal rates could be effected better for Golems if the Luchuirp have Runes of Kilmorph.....Maybe the Great Mother only blesses those whom beset their roads according to her will or visit her Mountains being they all belong to her regardless of whom claims the land surface........she might even be pleased at the prospect of golems.........visiting.

Mud golems--should they have a penalty in desert tiles? I think -1 movement would make sense thematically, although its a small change and isn't needed.

Mud golems--should they have a penalty in desert tiles? I think -1 movement would make sense thematically, although its a small change and isn't needed.

I think that falls under the category of "needless complexity". Plus, you'd have to exclude flood plains and oases, and it isn't like mud golems aren't weaker than normal workers anyway (due to being effectively twice as expensive early on).

Yeah, maybe that idea was half-baked (ba-dum ching)
On another note, is it intentional that golems can't be hasted?

Yeah, maybe that idea was half-baked (ba-dum ching)
On another note, is it intentional that golems can't be hasted?

Yes, you can only haste living units (it is body magic).

Right now I have no reason to build gargoyles, since I got iron working first and had iron. Other than position on tech tree (I don't recall if it is possible to get them way sooner, but I don't think so) and not needed iron resource (though they still need some resource, so that isn't a huge advantage) gargoyles have no advantage, since even with the +25% (or is it 50? even then) city bonus they are weaker than 10str IG.
I suggest giving them a modest bonus to summons in addition to their current city bonus, on the grounds that medival gargoyles were built to ward off evil spirits.

Right now I have no reason to build gargoyles, since I got iron working first and had iron. Other than position on tech tree (I don't recall if it is possible to get them way sooner, but I don't think so) and not needed iron resource (though they still need some resource, so that isn't a huge advantage) gargoyles have no advantage, since even with the +25% (or is it 50? even then) city bonus they are weaker than 10str IG.
I suggest giving them a modest bonus to summons in addition to their current city bonus, on the grounds that medival gargoyles were built to ward off evil spirits.
Ward off evil spirits and in some cases fly however in a rhetorical sense does anyone recall the names of the two gargoyles posted outside the temple and recall why they are placed there...........there names are Confusion and Paradox and it is because that front entrance is as far as those two spirits are allowed to go for they must stop where the guardians that bear their name are posted.

I have two ideas so far

1)>enchanter's workshop:
allows golems in the city to recieve a promotion granted for free by a building in that city, along with other golem unique promotions. Perhaps this should be a national wonder making the city it is built in a hub of golem millitary activity for the nation. It could also grant access to tier two promotions like garrison II, and possibly an improvement for heavy and light.

posible unique promotions available at the workshop could be:
>antimagic plates - like magic resistance, only 20% less bonus (entropy)
>war runes - +20% city attack, 10% collateral damage (fire mana)
>self-repairing - +10% healing rate (body mana)

these improvemants could also be granted by other buildings or with certain types of mana.

2)>Bone golems could heal damage with every killed living unit and twice with undead. I like the idea of a golem that grafts parts of it's enemies to itself after every kill. You could also have them gain a promotion with every kill, after three promotions they could spawn a fledgling bone golem at half health and the promotions reset, like the golem got too big from to many bones and split into two new ones.

Golem Workers

Now, a Golem will go on working and working and working, with no need to eat, sleep or rest. For this reason I think that Mud Golems should build improvements faster than normal workers..... but maybe not at the start. Maybe mud is not a good thing to make Golem from, so for a basic workers it's ok, but you could have a better worker.

So, maybe there should be a Clay Golem. This would do as above, work at a faster pace than normal, but they would also be able to defend themselves. I mean, how many wolves would attack and hurt something made of clay, compared to them fleshy human workers.
So, a clay golem could be avalible after a certain tech, it would be a 2 power creature which cannot attack and build's improvements at double (or 1/3 faster) speed. :scan: ........Or, maybe have power 1 or 2 and have +150% vs animals. An axe weilding orc can damage a bit of clay, but why would a tiger even think of attacking them.

It makes sense to me.

mud golems work with double speed already (thats why they are more expensive)

mud golems work with double speed already (thats why they are more expensive)

Ok, so I didn't realise that, but I still think the Clay Golem is a good idea. Also, your Golems should not be affected by your civ traits, so no double production speed for workers from one trait (But, i'm prob wrong here again & that already happens :p )

Barnaxus is very strong - I was able to buff him up to Combat IV or V against barbs and then walked over every opponent in every subsequent war. Clockwork golems were particularly scary with combat V (fun for me though). I feel this is potentially unbalanced, making the Luichurp player who uses Barnaxus well hard to beat.

Barnaxus is very strong - I was able to buff him up to Combat IV or V against barbs and then walked over every opponent in every subsequent war. Clockwork golems were particularly scary with combat V (fun for me though). I feel this is potentially unbalanced, making the Luichurp player who uses Barnaxus well hard to beat.

How to fix it? I really don't want to lose the mechanic. Move Barnaxus later? Reduce his base Str to make it harder to level him?

What's truly sick is The Mithril Golem built at a place with a Blasting Furnace and the building that gives the Heavy promotion, with a Combat 5 Barnaxus. It can cast Tremor, Earthquake, Fireball, and Ring of Fire (or was it Pillar of Fire? I forget), has almost 120 strength when attacking cities (!!!) and 92 normally. Toss in a couple of Flesh Golems with any Divine caster mixed in (so they have Repair and preferably Medic promotions and Regenerate) and you have a truly unbeatable opponent. Even Meshabber of Dis or the Avatar of Wrath wouldn't be able to stop it.

Of course, it takes 600+ turns to set all that up, but it does truly give meaning to "Armageddon".

How to fix it? I really don't want to lose the mechanic. Move Barnaxus later? Reduce his base Str to make it harder to level him?

What I would do is change the mechanic slightly. I love the flavor of it, but all golems automatically getting combat 5 is just too strong. Instead, only let golems choose promotions that Barnaxus actually has (instead of not being able to choose any promotions). That way they'd still have to level up on their own, but it makes them much stronger with Barnaxus around than if he gets killed.

What's truly sick is The Mithril Golem built at a place with a Blasting Furnace and the building that gives the Heavy promotion, with a Combat 5 Barnaxus. It can cast Tremor, Earthquake, Fireball, and Ring of Fire (or was it Pillar of Fire? I forget), has almost 120 strength when attacking cities (!!!) and 92 normally. Toss in a couple of Flesh Golems with any Divine caster mixed in (so they have Repair and preferably Medic promotions and Regenerate) and you have a truly unbeatable opponent. Even Meshabber of Dis or the Avatar of Wrath wouldn't be able to stop it.

Of course, it takes 600+ turns to set all that up, but it does truly give meaning to "Armageddon".

Oddly enough I dont really mind that. The Avatars are the Tech victory condition. I figure its more satisfying to be able to go our and destory your enemies than to get a popup that says you have won because you researched ubertech.

Oddly enough I dont really mind that. The Avatars are the Tech victory condition. I figure its more satisfying to be able to go our and destory your enemies than to get a popup that says you have won because you researched ubertech.

Oh, I agree completely. I was just illustrating how insane TMG gets with Barnaxus and intelligent golem forge upgrades. I checked the combat log and it was doing as much as 40-50 hit points of damage per attack when it was attacking cities. Brutal. Like you said, and I said for that matter, it's an end-game, Armageddon unit, and it really does feel like an Armageddon unit when the Luichurp build it. It isn't nearly as strong when another civ gets it though, since they don't get the golem buildings or Barnaxus.

How to fix it? I really don't want to lose the mechanic. Move Barnaxus later? Reduce his base Str to make it harder to level him?
I like the mechanic too; but I think that it is potentially too easy to level him.
Rather than making him weaker and thus less useful as a unit in his own right (which would work to a degree) I think that slowing the rate at which he gains xp could help, if that's possible. Even if you did that, eventually he'd get to combat V, and I find that a bit strong - if you don't think so, that's fine though. I was thinking maybe a line of golem promotions (Golem I-V) which gave lesser strength bonuses like 10% or so would be less severe, but I realise that is adding a whole lot more promotions to the game.
Also, I think that the base golems could be overpowered; wood, iron and clockwork are relatively strong for their respective eras - I know this is because they can't normally level, but with the Barnaxus mechanic... they're very strong. And even after you kill Barnaxus, they're still quite strong against relatively unpromoted units from other civs, especially the iron golems, and clockwork. Perhaps you could downgrade the iron and clockwork strengths by 1-2?
Incidentally, what I've seen of the AI using Barnaxus wasn't that good - for such an important unit strategically, he shouldn't be be left alone in a square, especially not going on the attack.
Finally, I was thinking that maybe if Barnaxus was killed, the player should have some way of continuing his powers; that way you could reduce the strength of the golems and be less concerned about a Luichurp player being overrun. What I was thinking was a national wonder along the lines of "Ode to Barnaxus" or something like that, which granted all golems some or all of the combat promotions that Barnaxus had, and at least combat I (or golem I if you had that). Probably not up to combat V though, as that would make it unfair to others who had hunted Barnaxus to hamper the Luichurp army.
Let me know what you think, I really enjoy the mod and the way you listen to the community input.

I like the mechanic too; but I think that it is potentially too easy to level him.
Rather than making him weaker and thus less useful as a unit in his own right (which would work to a degree) I think that slowing the rate at which he gains xp could help, if that's possible. Even if you did that, eventually he'd get to combat V, and I find that a bit strong - if you don't think so, that's fine though. I was thinking maybe a line of golem promotions (Golem I-V) which gave lesser strength bonuses like 10% or so would be less severe, but I realise that is adding a whole lot more promotions to the game.
Also, I think that the base golems could be overpowered; wood, iron and clockwork are relatively strong for their respective eras - I know this is because they can't normally level, but with the Barnaxus mechanic... they're very strong. And even after you kill Barnaxus, they're still quite strong against relatively unpromoted units from other civs, especially the iron golems, and clockwork. Perhaps you could downgrade the iron and clockwork strengths by 1-2?
Incidentally, what I've seen of the AI using Barnaxus wasn't that good - for such an important unit strategically, he shouldn't be be left alone in a square, especially not going on the attack.
Finally, I was thinking that maybe if Barnaxus was killed, the player should have some way of continuing his powers; that way you could reduce the strength of the golems and be less concerned about a Luichurp player being overrun. What I was thinking was a national wonder along the lines of "Ode to Barnaxus" or something like that, which granted all golems some or all of the combat promotions that Barnaxus had, and at least combat I (or golem I if you had that). Probably not up to combat V though, as that would make it unfair to others who had hunted Barnaxus to hamper the Luichurp army.
Let me know what you think, I really enjoy the mod and the way you listen to the community input.

I think your right. The golems were balanced based on the assumption that they couldnt gain any combat promotions. Now that they can their base str probably needs to be reduced.

if you reduce the golems str,it will make them less usefull for other civs.

Just thinking about these golems...

I would imagine that they would operate nearly in reverse to the werewolves.... in that the golems would get a huge defence bonus, and a heavy negative modifier on offence.

It would mean that your game play would have to be totally different when playing as this civ as you could defend cities/resources with just one unit, yet carrying out an offence would be more tricky... either lots of units, or having to "soak up" experience in order to build up some offensive capability.

Werewolves if used in conjunction with units with a good defence are fabulous offensive units, they can hit strong and not have to worry about being hit back..... it would be good to have something that can do it in reverse..... of course, in this case you would need to restrict this from building the Baron or this civ becomes unstoppable...

if you reduce the golems str,it will make them less usefull for other civs.

The only golem other civs can use is the copper golem, he may be left alone.

maybe barnaxus should be kinda like a "reverse hero" with his promotions, so that if u just level him up against barbs and then sit him somewhere safe he slowly loses his combat I-V promotions over time.

with the bone golem, how does the mechanic work? i noticed playing my last game that when he uses his enemies bones a couple of times a second bone golem appeared with full health. after reading this thread though i think maybe he was supposed to heal himself not clone himself?

The only golem other civs can use is the copper golem, he may be left alone.

thank you,while it is not the most important unit i have build it helps.

How to fix it? I really don't want to lose the mechanic. Move Barnaxus later? Reduce his base Str to make it harder to level him?

Maybe you can restrain acces to Combat II-V (or III-V) to certain military techs (like city attack or subdue animal) ?

I'm feeling that the best way to work it is to make the golems start weaker than usual, but with Barnaxus' promotions they'll end up slightly stronger than the flesh-and-blood units they replace.

The possible downside of reducing the base strength of golems is that the Luchuirp will be even more crippled when Barnaxus dies. But I guess that's what we've wanted to achieve anyway - anyone fighting the Luchuirp should go straight for Barnaxus.

I vote for extra HP on the golems but slightly reduced Strenght. :D

I vote for extra HP on the golems but slightly reduced Strenght. :D

:lol: .

extra hp...?
how about every golem built starts with the "new" promotion
+20% combat or something,
disappears randomly over time(faster in jungle flood plains and ice tiles),
or after fighting battle(s)

extra hp...?

Its a running joke between Chalid and I. He has a way to modify a units hit points (all hit points are currently 1-100). I dont think we need it so I havent checked in his mod. If this situation follows former patterns eventually Chalids logic will be prevail and the change will come in, but Im not sold on the idea yet.

how about every golem built starts with the "new" promotion
+20% combat or something,
disappears randomly over time(faster in jungle flood plains and ice tiles),
or after fighting battle(s)

Thats an interesting idea, but I would tend to go the other way with it. Everytime the golem gets injured it cant heal quite back up to its max again (Chalid would say we reduce his maximum hit points). But in the end I don't think either form of depreciation would be much fun for players, who dont want to have to manage it to make optimal use of their units.

I don't think Barnaxus makes the Golems to powerfull. Heres Why.

1st. Golems are more expensive to make. (do they gain any bonus from food if that civ selected? I hope they don't)

2nd. Golems cannot themselves level. This is a very big problem, you can never make a Golem any better than it starts (except Barnaxus). So no tacticle fighting to get better units. This also mean they dont gain benifits from all the city-based improvement that other civs do. Ie with the right civs and improvement you can start with 1 free promotions, and +10 skill points, which is combat 3 if I remember right. True this is not as much as Barnaxus can give, so lets make it that you need to gets certain techs to give him certain abilities. This would mirror the other civs, the more techs, the better their starting units can be.

3rd. World Wonders. The Golem player looses the benifits of world wonders. A free blessed promotion and a free sentry promotion cannot be used by the Golem player, when they can by all other players.

So, overall I can see many good and many bad points to the Golems, and overall I think they balance out quite well.

I don't think Barnaxus makes the Golems to powerfull. Heres Why.

1st. Golems are more expensive to make. (do they gain any bonus from food if that civ selected? I hope they don't)

2nd. Golems cannot themselves level. This is a very big problem, you can never make a Golem any better than it starts (except Barnaxus). So no tacticle fighting to get better units. This also mean they dont gain benifits from all the city-based improvement that other civs do. Ie with the right civs and improvement you can start with 1 free promotions, and +10 skill points, which is combat 3 if I remember right. True this is not as much as Barnaxus can give, so lets make it that you need to gets certain techs to give him certain abilities. This would mirror the other civs, the more techs, the better their starting units can be.

3rd. World Wonders. The Golem player looses the benifits of world wonders. A free blessed promotion and a free sentry promotion cannot be used by the Golem player, when they can by all other players.

So, overall I can see many good and many bad points to the Golems, and overall I think they balance out quite well.

Yeahm I did some balancing work on them last weekend. You can see the exact changes in the changelog. Overall I agree with you, but some of their units were to strong and needed to be reduced, and a few were to weak and needed improved.

So the real problem was that there was only one real way to play the Luchuirp (since some of their units were so much better than others), and those overpowered units were even more overpowered with Barnaxus. I hope that in 0.14 they will play out better.

I have a suggestion for the luchiurp.

I think the golems should be immune to fear. After all they are statues. In fantasy they arent supposed to have feelings and they follow orders relentlessly and completely willingly.

And they should also be immune to disease. After all, they arent biological beings.

I think the golems should be immune to fear. After all they are statues.

Golems became immune to fear in patch 0.13D.

Dunno about disease, though.

I have a suggestion for the luchiurp.

I think the golems should be immune to fear. After all they are statues. In fantasy they arent supposed to have feelings and they follow orders relentlessly and completely willingly.

And they should also be immune to disease. After all, they arent biological beings.

They should already be both. Do you have golems that are being feared or catching diseases?

Golems are supposed to be powerful and awe inspiring and if a Civ is known for them even moreso.....anyway I don't have any difficult with them and the Barbs or myself kill them off first and when they are played by me it is still a fight because of certain frailties by comparison to other civs, Irion Golems even with combat promos have great difficulty killing Crossbowmen to Flurries and Defence bonuses for golems should stay equal to anyone else or why bother with using them for sentry.....anyway I love the Luchuirp and will continue to play them even if the Ljosalfar are a more logical choice if I want to dominate......dwarves that are golem masters....what is more for want.......fairness.....dwarves are fair only because the world has never been fair to them in my opinion.........however in game terms if frailties lead to inferiority and right now it doesn't look that way.......maybe new promos for golems that use a certain Team members idea for HIt points would make golems more to everyones feel.......Call it SEASONED or something maybe BATTLEHARDED.....yeah the World Wonder thing is kind of a drag but Kael says he has tweaked it and he is a magician at that.....besides the last thing anyone want is for a golem army to surround and kill every civ they make(even if it would be fun to watch).....I like the top heavy end yet promos TTT often.....I suggest people remember to uswe other units to support the golems their large size requires smaller units for support like crossbowmen ect..else how do they get in the cracks other than smash, smash,smash ohhh....to late the nitpicked you away.

Golems are supposed to be powerful and awe inspiring and if a Civ is known for them even moreso.....anyway I don't have any difficult with them and the Barbs or myself kill them off first and when they are played by me it is still a fight because of certain frailties by comparison to other civs, Irion Golems even with combat promos have great difficulty killing Crossbowmen to Flurries and Defence bonuses for golems should stay equal to anyone else or why bother with using them for sentry.....anyway I love the Luchuirp and will continue to play them even if the Ljosalfar are a more logical choice if I want to dominate......dwarves that are golem masters....what is more for want.......fairness.....dwarves are fair only because the world has never been fair to them in my opinion.........however in game terms if frailties lead to inferiority and right now it doesn't look that way.......maybe new promos for golems that use a certain Team members idea for HIt points would make golems more to everyones feel.......Call it SEASONED or something maybe BATTLEHARDED.....yeah the World Wonder thing is kind of a drag but Kael says he has tweaked it and he is a magician at that.....besides the last thing anyone want is for a golem army to surround and kill every civ they make(even if it would be fun to watch).....I like the top heavy end yet promos TTT often.....I suggest people remember to uswe other units to support the golems their large size requires smaller units for support like crossbowmen ect..else how do they get in the cracks other than smash, smash,smash ohhh....to late the nitpicked you away.

I dont know how awe inspiring golems are supposed to be, they just represent a differing mechanic, a front loaded unit that doesn't progress. Iron Golems should destroy Crossbowmen outside of cities and be decent against crossbowmen in cities (if the defenses have been bombarded away). They should be weak against flurries, they are a t3 unit vs a t4 in that example. But a Clockwork Golem should be good against flurries.

The altar of the luonnotar and the tower of eyes apply to all the Luchuirp units besides the golems. And the Luchuirp have access to more promotion granting buildings than any other civ, so I dont feel like they are missing out from that perspective.

It wasn't a compaint,honest. Maybe some of has to do with the way the AI handles them I dunno but I love the Luchuirp regardless and the strategy for them just has to be different and I appriciate that and am in no way antagonizing the direction in fact I like it.......I throw out a little understanding to the other players and defend your position it the same breath and am willing to do so again...........reorganize your strategy everybody.........everything is according to plan. The Clockwork Golem Should have His Own Movie and I don't mean in the game but in the Theatres.....scary little dwarves that are really just misunderstood making arcane mechanical monstrosities that people are against until they find that it is the only thing keeping the monsters underground.

Vanilla civ doesn't cut it for me, I like it but the monsters need to play......and the Luchuirp are a welcome protagonist..........wood golems soaked in holy water = vampire slayer........man I try to get you to laugh.....just because the joy you guys bring to others and the energy that a smile(even a dark one) bring to the work.....Hell I am just glad that the Luchuirp aren't like the little people from Phantasm......really thankful.