I'm having some trouble placing National Wonders. I know these guys can produce serious synergies if used right, but the advance planning is getting to me.

Here's what I have so far:


Globe Theater -- Apparently there are a lot of ways you can use this for military benefit. Things like whipping and drafting don't matter if you have the Globe. I haven't really done this... instead I mostly ignore the Globe, unless (1) I'm going for cultural victory, in which case it's very good; or (2) I have a neighbor I want to stay at peace with, but there are border issues. In which case the Globe is very good for keeping the border where it belongs.


Heroic Epic -- Build this someplace that has good production, right? Then make sure you keep the production up with forge, factory, etc.

You can combine this with the Ironworks, and that's good. Or with West Point, and that's good too. Seems straightforward enough.


Hermitage -- This seems great if you're going for a cultural victory, but pretty useless otherwise. Am I missing something?


Ironworks -- Placing this seems to be a very fraught decision. I guess you'd naturally want to place it in your highest production city. But then two problems arise.

First, what do you pair it with? It seems like there are several strong candidates: Red Cross, Heroic Epic, West Point. Maybe Scotland Yard if you find spies really useful (I don't).

Second, what if your best production city is also your commerce city, or a major cultural center? This happens to me a lot. You might really want to build the IW/RC pair there, but find that it's also the ideal place for Oxford U and/or Wall Street. Balancing this can be really tricky. Suggestions are welcome.

Oh, and: if you have Angkor Wat, that affects your thinking. Suddenly putting the Ironworks in the GP farm makes sense, because all those priests producing up to four hammers each (with Iron, Coal, a forge and a factory) is pretty tempting.

National Epic -- I'm still having trouble handling GPs, so this is tricky for me. Put this in your GP farm, right, check. But what goes with it?


Oxford University -- In the big research city, obviously; and you keep it operating at max efficiency by building all the knowledge buildings, and an Academy, and maybe running a scientist or two. I got that. My only problem is what to pair it with.


Red Cross -- I keep seeing people talking about an IW/RC pair. I see the power of that, but do we really want to wait around that long? RC doesn't usually appear until quite late in my games.

Otherwise, I guess you'd just build it in a good production city. If Ironworks is unavailable, maybe pair it with the Globe, so you can draft and whip a bunch of slave-doctors? I guess you would call that the MASH combo.


Scotland Yard -- Are spies really all that? I have the feeling I'm underusing them. I sometimes don't even build this.


Wall Street -- This is a good one, but placing it gives me fits. My best commerce city is usually my best research city (which is usually my capital) so it usually seems to end up teamed with Oxford U in the capital.

I guess if you have a holy city, you want it there. (In Civ IV, you WANT the moneychangers in the Temple.)


West Point -- Costs 800 shields, and it's basically a second barracks that stacks. (Although, oddly, you don't need a barracks to build it. In which case, it's just a barracks that costs about 13x more than normal.)

I'm a little skeptical of the value of this. Okay, you get units starting with 8 points instead of four; run Vassalage or Theocracy, and you have fourth level fighters from the git-go.

That's nice, but it's just in one city. And, cripes, 800 shields. You could build almost seven cavalry for that, or four and a half tanks. By way of comparison, a Barracks just costs two and a half Axemen. Doesn't seem worth it unless the city is already a production monster. Like Scotland Yard, I sometimes don't even get around to this.


Finally, a general observation: I often find myself waiting many turns to build the two Epics. As in, I may not build them until well into the Renaissance (standard game). Is this common, or is something terribly wrong with me?

Thanks in advance,


Waldo

I'm having some trouble placing National Wonders. I know these guys can produce serious synergies if used right, but the advance planning is getting to me.

Here's what I have so far:


Globe Theater -- Apparently there are a lot of ways you can use this for military benefit. Things like whipping and drafting don't matter if you have the Globe. I haven't really done this... instead I mostly ignore the Globe, unless (1) I'm going for cultural victory, in which case it's very good; or (2) I have a neighbor I want to stay at peace with, but there are border issues. In which case the Globe is very good for keeping the border where it belongs.

well, the effect of the globe is to suppress any unhappiness
so, it's place is in the largest (to be) city = fastest growth city.
It can be your GP farm (big food necessary too), or not.
If it isn't, you can use the big food to draft a unit every turn, when in need since you won't get any unhappiness. you can also whip a lot of things without looking at the unhappiness effect.


Heroic Epic -- Build this someplace that has good production, right? Then make sure you keep the production up with forge, factory, etc.

You can combine this with the Ironworks, and that's good. Or with West Point, and that's good too. Seems straightforward enough.


Good enough explanation for me.


Hermitage -- This seems great if you're going for a cultural victory, but pretty useless otherwise. Am I missing something?


the effect is doubling the culture per turn
so indeed, it's mostly useful for cultural victory, but can also be used for land grabbing / keeping your ground like you said about globe theater


Ironworks -- Placing this seems to be a very fraught decision. I guess you'd naturally want to place it in your highest production city. But then two problems arise.

First, what do you pair it with? It seems like there are several strong candidates: Red Cross, Heroic Epic, West Point. Maybe Scotland Yard if you find spies really useful (I don't).

Second, what if your best production city is also your commerce city, or a major cultural center? This happens to me a lot. You might really want to build the IW/RC pair there, but find that it's also the ideal place for Oxford U and/or Wall Street. Balancing this can be really tricky. Suggestions are welcome.


why would you want that much spies???
my usual combination are heroic epic + west point
and IW + Red cross,
because this way you get 2 different cities able to build experienced units very fast
(of course, red cross only gives medic, but medic leads to march!)

problem is Red Cross comes quite late, so it's not really necessary to wait until then, and you don't need that much medics

so it's not really a problem to have IW + any other, you don't lose much

about wall street : it only doubles your cash, so it's usually something to put in a big $ holy city



Oh, and: if you have Angkor Wat, that affects your thinking. Suddenly putting the Ironworks in the GP farm makes sense, because all those priests producing up to four hammers each (with Iron, Coal, a forge and a factory) is pretty tempting.

National Epic -- I'm still having trouble handling GPs, so this is tricky for me. Put this in your GP farm, right, check. But what goes with it?
depends on the GP you aim for
if you want artists, globe theater is perfect
if you want engineers, IW is your friend (never did, comes too late for any effect).


Oxford University -- In the big research city, obviously; and you keep it operating at max efficiency by building all the knowledge buildings, and an Academy, and maybe running a scientist or two. I got that. My only problem is what to pair it with.


you give it max efficiency if you put it where you have the most base beakers (without all those buildings)
and it's not a problem if you don't know what to pair it with
If you don't have a shrine, you'll end up pairing it with wall street.
If you have, it's just a lonesome national wonder.


Red Cross -- I keep seeing people talking about an IW/RC pair. I see the power of that, but do we really want to wait around that long? RC doesn't usually appear until quite late in my games.

Otherwise, I guess you'd just build it in a good production city. If Ironworks is unavailable, maybe pair it with the Globe, so you can draft and whip a bunch of slave-doctors? I guess you would call that the MASH combo.


nice one, must try it ;)


Scotland Yard -- Are spies really all that? I have the feeling I'm underusing them. I sometimes don't even build this.



same for me, too late, too expensive, too little use


Wall Street -- This is a good one, but placing it gives me fits. My best commerce city is usually my best research city (which is usually my capital) so it usually seems to end up teamed with Oxford U in the capital.

I guess if you have a holy city, you want it there. (In Civ IV, you WANT the moneychangers in the Temple.)


agreed, like i alreayd said


West Point -- Costs 800 shields, and it's basically a second barracks that stacks. (Although, oddly, you don't need a barracks to build it. In which case, it's just a barracks that costs about 13x more than normal.)

I'm a little skeptical of the value of this. Okay, you get units starting with 8 points instead of four; run Vassalage or Theocracy, and you have fourth level fighters from the git-go.

That's nice, but it's just in one city. And, cripes, 800 shields. You could build almost seven cavalry for that, or four and a half tanks. By way of comparison, a Barracks just costs two and a half Axemen. Doesn't seem worth it unless the city is already a production monster. Like Scotland Yard, I sometimes don't even get around to this.


you're nuts?
of course, it comes rather late
but remember you build it in a good production city, so you won't have too much trouble building it
and it's 8 xp isn't grand but 10 xps is!, you start with 3 promotions, and that's a big deal!
if you're agressive, you're just one promotion away from commando
i do love those city raider 3 artillery right out of the barracks
And those 10 xps you get with barracks, west point and one civic (theocracy or vassalage) or pentagon.
Since it comes so late, best thing is barracks + west point + pentagon somewhere else (IW city will be much faster, probably)

Finally, a general observation: I often find myself waiting many turns to build the two Epics. As in, I may not build them until well into the Renaissance (standard game). Is this common, or is something terribly wrong with me?

wrong yes, terribly no
obviously, you lose GPP if you don't build the national epic asap
but, it's only in one city and it's not always a big deal
Sometimes you need those macemen more than those GPP ;)

Globe Theater -- Apparently there are a lot of ways you can use this for military benefit. Things like whipping and drafting don't matter if you have the Globe. I haven't really done this...

It's worth looking into. If you aren't using the whip, the natural home for the Globe Theater is a city with evenly distributed surplus food (ie, floodplains, rather than corn).

Heroic Epic -- Build this someplace that has good production, right? Then make sure you keep the production up with forge, factory, etc.

You can combine this with the Ironworks, and that's good. Or with West Point, and that's good too. Seems straightforward enough.

Ironworks, not so much - for the simple reason that your IW shop is often busy with pumping out wonders. Not to mention the fact that HE + IW is overkill (60 hammers base + 100% for forge/factory/power + 100% for HE + 100% for IW = 240 hammers per turn.... when the most expensive unit is 200 hammers? wasteful).

Hermitage -- This seems great if you're going for a cultural victory, but pretty useless otherwise. Am I missing something?

You and me both.

Ironworks -- Placing this seems to be a very fraught decision. I guess you'd naturally want to place it in your highest production city. But then two problems arise.

First, what do you pair it with? It seems like there are several strong candidates: Red Cross, Heroic Epic, West Point. Maybe Scotland Yard if you find spies really useful (I don't).

Second, what if your best production city is also your commerce city, or a major cultural center? This happens to me a lot. You might really want to build the IW/RC pair there, but find that it's also the ideal place for Oxford U and/or Wall Street. Balancing this can be really tricky. Suggestions are welcome.

If (as mentioned above ) Ironworks is going to be dedicated primarily to building wonders, then the military choices are wasted.

Super Scientists give hammers, and Super Engineers give research, so IW + Oxford has some nice synergy to it. Late in the game, though, my science slider tends to be pretty high, and I'm likely getting more raw research from a cottage town (the watermills just aren't kicking in that much).

My preference is the Ironworks/Shrine/WallStreet/Angkor Wat combo. There downside being that's an awful lot of GP slots going to waste.

I've also tried Ironworks with National Epic - on the theory that multiplying the points from the wonders, and the engineer specialists, would be a good thing, but truthfully I've never been all that happy with the results.

National Epic -- I'm still having trouble handling GPs, so this is tricky for me. Put this in your GP farm, right, check. But what goes with it?

Oxford if you want Scientists, WallStreet if you want merchants. The latter fits nicely if you manage a shrine or two in your GP farm. With Angkor Wat in play, the priests specialists really start giving you production kick, which may let you build some wonders there.

Red Cross -- I keep seeing people talking about an IW/RC pair. I see the power of that, but do we really want to wait around that long? RC doesn't usually appear until quite late in my games.

I had some success in a recent game with RC + West Point + an airport. Capture a city, and immediately airlift in a CGIII Medic so that the attackers can heal.

Scotland Yard -- Are spies really all that? I have the feeling I'm underusing them. I sometimes don't even build this.

Well, I don't know that they are going to be a big help in a cultural victory. But the use of sabotage is pretty obvious in Military and Space games, and I've read reports of sabotage used to good effect in a diplomatic win.

But you can't build many of them, and they don't cost a lot of hammers, so any reasonable production city should be able to crank them out quickly enough.

Wall Street -- This is a good one, but placing it gives me fits. My best commerce city is usually my best research city (which is usually my capital) so it usually seems to end up teamed with Oxford U in the capital.

I guess if you have a holy city, you want it there. (In Civ IV, you WANT the moneychangers in the Temple.)

Wall Street multiplies gold (rather than commerce), so a shrine is almost a given. When the circumstances are right, work toward getting two religions in a single city, and the location of WS becomes a no brainer.

Finally, a general observation: I often find myself waiting many turns to build the two Epics. As in, I may not build them until well into the Renaissance (standard game). Is this common, or is something terribly wrong with me?

Depends on why you aren't, I suppose. Heroic Epic looks to me like an easy win, so I'm inclined to suspect putting that one off is an error. National Epic... it's probably better to hold off on this one until you have a good GP farm available, rather than putting it into a poor one.

my synergies :

heroic epic + ironworks : this THE military production way ! these must be build in my most producting city. the use of this city is constant production of military unit (most of them to defend or be sacrified).

globe theatre + nationnal epic : to be put in the most foodable city ! THE main GP farm, also usefull for drafting during war times (you should have other GP anyway...)

redcross + west point : a good producing city. Unit built here are veterans, only. I use this city to produce fast-moving unit wich are my scouts, my raiders (they pillage everything !) and when red cross come it allows me to make complex medical chain to assure that all my unit eligible for healing will be effiectively healed ;)

wall street + oxford : THE most comercial city, as beakers and gold both come from commerce these 2 wonders should be built in the same place.

hermitage is usefull when you reach 1300AD - 1500AD, by then you might start a moove to cultural victory, ermitage is needed in the last of your cultural top 3 cities (ranking by culture/turn, not global culture) so that it can stick to the 2 first.

scotland yards : spy... you cant miss them ! theyre one of the key to space race ! scotland yards should be close to your space race opponents, your spy has to stop production and destroy all aluminium mine (aluminium is okay in english ?). If you dont use spy the only way to prevent an ennemy to win space race is war, and you would probably avoid war to performed yourself !

Just an observation...if your most productive city happens to be your capital city, the Ironworks + Bureaucracy leads to an incredibly productive powerhouse. Add a factory and power supply, and watch the hammers roll in! (And then hold off on any more small wonders until SDI, which can be built in a hurry this way.)

I typically try to combine heroic epic with west point in my most productive *port* city, so that both land and naval units can get the extra experience and production boost.

I agree with VoiceOfUnreason and disagree with ese-aSH :

- Heroic Epic and Ironworks in the same city is a waste. Much better to combine Heroic Epics and West Point, and then build Ironworks in a coastal production city to build wonders and combine it with Red Cross later on so that you can make medic ships.

- Wall Street should normally go in your best shrine city, not your best commerce city.

@zombie : question of preferences, i usually prefer having the minimum military cities, having one able to produce any needed unit in 1 turn is really usefull (i play standart map size).
i'm never very cautious with religion because I often switch to avoid war and finally when i go to free cult the only point is to built a many shrnes as possible.

Even with only one military city, i'd much rather have it produce units at +100% speed with +4 XP than produce them at +200% speed with +0 XP. Besides, West Point comes earlier than Ironworks, so if you want to make full use of your military city as early as possible, West Point is the way to go. It also has perfect timing with regards to Cavalry, since the same tech gives access to both, and you can also build West Point while waiting gunpowder which allows you to actually make them. Also, by the time you reach the techs for grenadiers and riflemen, your West Point is already done and ready for use. Finally, if you're going to have only one military city, it's great to put in it the two national wonders that give bonuses only to military units, while building the Ironworks in another city and using it to produce other kinds of stuff (like e.g. wonders), since this bonus applies to everything.

If short, if you're going to have only one city producing military units, that's the best reason in the world to put the Heroic Epic and West Point together and Ironworks elsewhere.


As for Wall Street, it doesn't have anything to do with "being cautious with religions" or anything like that. Heck, in a typical game, the total number of religions i found is zero. But i do capture Holy Cities, and those make great candidates for Wall Street no matter what type of game you're playing.

I can see the value of Ironworks and Red Cross for later game Medic Carriers, but with unlimited rebasing, do you really need it?

On the other hand, Ironworks and National Epic could be an interesting pairing(assuming you're not working some crazy high GP output strategy from the start). GEP are hard to come by. I know it seems to defeat the purpose of IW, but 3 Engineers aren't exactly not contributing :hammers: / :science:.

I can see the value of Ironworks and Red Cross for later game Medic Carriers, but with unlimited rebasing, do you really need it?

On the other hand, Ironworks and National Epic could be an interesting pairing(assuming you're not working some crazy high GP output strategy from the start). GEP are hard to come by. I know it seems to defeat the purpose of IW, but 3 Engineers aren't exactly not contributing :hammers: / :science:.

the only problem is that IW come late, with very little wonders left to build

well, kremlin and space elevator, can both see the use of a GE, so is eifel tower or pentagon.
But given the fact that you top at 4 engineers for most of the late game, it will take a while to get those GEs. pacifism can help, though.

@zombie : in the late game I mainly play with planes. Having West point in my most producing city is useless then. My late armies are hundreds of marines cover by planes and boats, attacking directly from sea. I do care having a few modern armor (medic thanks to RC + blitz + city raiders thanks to WP :p) and inf mec (medic + walk('marche' in french) + combat) but thats rarely the base of my army.

I had some success in a recent game with RC + West Point + an airport. Capture a city, and immediately airlift in a CGIII Medic so that the attackers can heal.
Nice! I'm gonna have to try that.

How do you pick which city gets Heroic Epic/Westpoint in and which one gets Ironworks?

Iron works should go to a costal city.
Epic, which comes a lot earlier, should be in one of the first cities you founded with LOTS of hills around it.

Iron works should go to a costal city.
Epic, which comes a lot earlier, should be in one of the first cities you founded with LOTS of hills around it.
3 or 4 plain hills are far enough. workshop, lumbermill and watermill will complete anyway (percfect place : some food resource, plain hills and lots of rivers =]).
whats the point on coastal cities ?? fishing is quite poor for hamers :p and AI never build big fleet

No but you want at least 1 city which can pump those units out.

Sorry if I appear a little out of touch but I play with a mod where you almost always have enough food. The problem is not growing, but growing quickly enough. Try it if you like, its in my sig.

Nice! I'm gonna have to try that.

How do you pick which city gets Heroic Epic/Westpoint in and which one gets Ironworks?

In my mind, the key difference between Heroic Epic and Ironworks is that the Epic comes much sooner - usually when I'm looking at population caps < 15, and at a time when the only really strong production tile is a mine. So the Epic doesn't need as much good land around it, because you aren't working all the tiles anyway (not in the early going). The Epic also needs hills, because you don't yet have the more flexible production improvements.

So Heroic Epic - mines. food to feed the mines. Coastal is good. Rivers are useful, but not essential. Lakes, Mountains, desserts are a small minus (eventually, these will make you unhappy, but in the early going you just don't work them).

Ironworks - landlocked, without lakes mountains desserts (you want 20 productive tiles). River is a much bigger deal - fresh water without wasting a tile, AND clean power, AND a shot at the 3GD. Flat makes it easier to get up to size with temporary farms. Generally, the city gets better the more river edges it has (increased flexibility), so a river junction is ideal.

The Ironworks also opens up a bunch of Engineer slots, so it's a better fit with those cities that have lots (50) of food.

Having the Ironworks in the back lines - where it can easily be defended - with the Heroic Epic up front, where it can quickly contribute troops to the battle line, would be very nice, but I wouldn't expect to see that used as the tie breaker very often.

In terms of pure hammers, there's basically no such thing as too many hammers per turn in your wonder city, but you can reach a point where you are wasting hammers building units in one turn - so of the two, Heroic Epic probably goes into the city with less total production.


the only problem is that IW come late, with very little wonders left to build


Depends on when you get it, I suppose. Broadway, Hollywood, Rock and Roll, Eiffel Tower, Kremlin, Pentagon, Space Elevator, Three Gorges, United Nations, Internet. Plus Apollo and all your spaceship parts.

Well the basic Synergies are

1. National Epic with Food bonuses and a Specialist allowing N.W. (Globe, Wall Street, Oxford, Ironworks)

2. National Epic with Food bonuses and Globe and Caste System

3. National Epic with Production bonuses in Wonder City

4. Heroic Epic with production bonuses with West Point

5. Shrines with Wall Street

6. Globe with Draft or Slavery and Food bonuses with Heroic Epic or West Point (or Red Cross)

I typically try to combine heroic epic with west point in my most productive *port* city, so that both land and naval units can get the extra experience and production boost.
amen! so many people put the ironworks with west point. but why? heroic epic is a "military only ironworks", which is all you need in your west point city.
in the late game I mainly play with planes. Having West point in my most producing city is useless then. My late armies are hundreds of marines cover by planes and boats, attacking directly from sea. I do care having a few modern armor (medic thanks to RC + blitz + city raiders thanks to WP ) and inf mec (medic + walk('marche' in french) + combat) but thats rarely the base of my army.
i'd still say you're better off churning out experienced units from a HE/WP city and making planes from everyplace else. the 10 exp units allow amphipious assault modern armor, which are far superior to marines.

Oxford in best research city (often capital if commerce with bureaucracy).
Wall Street in best shrine city (which might be capital). The point of a shrine is to maximise gold at high research levels so if you've been spreading a religion Wall Street is more synergistic with shrine than commerce.
I'd agree on West Point with Heroic Epic; lts a bonus if you can find a coastal production city to house them.
Ironworks in general production city.
So looking at at least two production cities: one military, other military/civ wide wonders.
Globe:high food/low production city for GP Farm/whipping city.
Red Cross-not highest priority-would fit in with ironworks.
Scotland yard-anywhere.

Overkill as it sounds, I like Heroic Epic+Iron Works because it allows me to pump out a unit of my choice EVERY turn, and numbers>promotions. The placing it on a coastal city doesn't really apply to me because I normally play Pangaea but I think I might try HE and IW in different cities next time. Units with 3 promotions does sound sexy.

Overkill as it sounds, I like Heroic Epic+Iron Works because it allows me to pump out a unit of my choice EVERY turn, and numbers>promotions.

Right, but you don't need the overkill - at least, not very much.

Normal speed modern armor is 240 hammers.

Let's assume a modern city in a war economy. So Police State is reasonable for the +25%? In addition, we have Forge + Factory + Power (+100%), and Heroic Epic (+100%)... +225% in bonuses. So we need a city producing 240 / ( 1.0 + 2.25) = 74 hammers per turn.

[Reality check: 74 * 3.25 = 240.5 which gets rounded down to 240.]

No doubt, 74 hammers per turn is a lot. I hereby invoke State Property. If you had 20 grassland tiles, you'd workshop all of them for a yield of 65 hammers at pop 21. If you have any production resources, add another hammer (two for the metals, which you mine). You've got two more Engineer slots (one of which I've already used), which are worth two hammers each, so up to four surplus food can be turned into hammers as well. Or maybe you have the Statue of Liberty, and have a free engineer that way. If the Angkor Wat is available, you can use priest slots as well. Getting up to 69 hammers or so takes more foresight than luck, but it's doable.

69 isn't 74 though. To get to 74, you'd probably need to catch a lucky extra resource, or some food and the Angkor Wat, or attach a Specialist or two.

On the other hand... Mech Inf is 200 hammers, which is 62 hammers per turn. So a city with 68 hammers per turn could alternate between Mech Inf and Modern Armor.

If you pair the Epic and Ironworks together, you need 57 base hammers to spit out Modern Armor every turn. which is lovely... but what about the rest of your hammers? Take that grassland city, add Statue of Liberty, and you are already talking 67 base hammers. So what are you doing with the extra 10 hammers per turn? Throwing them away? replacing those workshops with cottages?

Edit: the main point being - you can have one city that pumps out MA every turn, and waste a bunch of hammers, or you can have two cities (one with HE, one with IW) that both alternate between MA and ME. I've got to figure that twice as many units is going to be better, especially since you can now put a promotion wonder in each city as well.

Marathon speed, I'm pretty sure that Modern Armor/turn is a pipe dream; Modern Armor/2 turns should be the same math as above.

Epic speed... OK, so you would need 360 hammers per turn. Put the Epic and Ironworks together... 85 hammers per turn? You'd need a perfect storm to pull that one off, I think: resources, extra food, and you're probably still attaching 4 engineers to the city.

Well the point does hold, especially on higher speeds, that you will get more production (still for high military its probably better going IW +Red Cross and HE +WP.. because then you have a Wonder City, and two that can spit out 3 promotion units to start.. assuming either Theocracy/Vassalage or Pentagon.)

HE+IW might be a good combination for a Peaceful player because
1. Possibility of not Getting West Point
2. you need to maintain a big army with the least diversion to keep everyone else happy with you.

What I do:

Heroic Epic goes into my best production city or best-but-not-capital production city. I try to build it fairly early on, though sometimes I have to wait until the reinaissance to build it; I'll definately have it in place before pumping out large numbers of macemen or knights. I place it based on what has the best production now and for the near future, I don't really care if there's another site that will end up better once I have biology to work a bunch more land, I want good production now. This city is going to produce some basic buildings for health and happiness, maybe a monastary for culture if it's on a border, and then keep a steady stream of units churning out aside from when it needs more health/happy buildings.

Usually West Point goes with HE, it lets me pump out a steady stream of units with 3 or 4 promotions. Often I end up producing a lot of CR3 macemen here for later upgrade to rifles/infantry. West Point is painfully when you build it, but has great benefits. Being able to pop city raider 3 units for attack and later upgrade, or city garrison 3 units for a key city, or formation units (as a non-aggressive civ), etc. is extremely nice. And while it's just one city, it's one city that is pretty much continuously building military units - it's not uncommon for my HE city to have built 1/3 to 1/2 of my active army.

Ironworks goes into my best production city other than the heroic epic city. For IW, I do worry about which one will be my best down the road, and it often ends up being a captured city. This city generally will end up not producing many military units at all, it will focus on pumping out wonders - things like eiffel tower, three gorges dam, the various entertainments, etc. It tends to end up standing on its own or getting paired with red cross for medic units.

National epic goes into my great person farm, most of the time I don't consider this all that important and won't build it until a good bit later. If I'm going for a lot of GPs then, of course, I'll build this as soon as possible. Globe theater makes a nice pair with it, so that the city can grow as large as food and health allow. Sometime I might try making a whip/draft factory like people talk about, but that's not my playstyle so far.

Oxford goes into my strongest research city, which is usually my capital, and this city should always have an academy too. Sometimes I'll build Wall Street in the same city, it depends on how the holy cities have turned out. If I don't have WS in the city, then it often ends up paired with scotland yard since there's usually some production here (especially if it's a capital).

I don't use hermitage much, occasionally if I have a border that's folding and don't want to war with the person on the border. I think it's pretty much just there for cultural victories.

Oxford doubles the output of research. Building this in a commercially dominant town will reap rewards, e.g cities in gold-rich areas, or coastal commerce-rich cities.
Wall Street should be built in the city that's making the most gold so that its making twice as much gold.
I always couple these two together for maximum research benefits.
I'm confused by a lot of people posting saying they build Wall Street in their Shrine City. The Holy Shrine, as far as I've ever known, produces 1gpt for every city that shares that religion, not just the shrine city. So as long as your Oxford/Wall Street city shares your state religion, it too will get the 1gpt benefit.

Oxford doubles the output of research. Building this in a commercially dominant town will reap rewards, e.g cities in gold-rich areas, or coastal commerce-rich cities.
Wall Street should be built in the city that's making the most gold so that its making twice as much gold.
I always couple these two together for maximum research benefits.
I'm confused by a lot of people posting saying they build Wall Street in their Shrine City. The Holy Shrine, as far as I've ever known, produces 1gpt for every city that shares that religion, not just the shrine city. So as long as your Oxford/Wall Street city shares your state religion, it too will get the 1gpt benefit.

Yup, 1gpt for every city with the shrine's religion, but all the gold is earned in the shrine city - hence maybe 20-30 (or more, if you've spread the religion(s) around a lot) gpt, that is doubled by WS.

As long as you are still researching heavily (I'm normally on 90% science mid-to-late game) that's a bigger benefit than any commerce-heavy city will give you.

[Edited for clarity]

Calder, the holy shrine produces one gold per turn for every city that has that religion - but it produces that gold in the city with the shrine, not spread out over all cities. Go look at a city with a shrine in the city window, you'll see line for something like +39 GPT in that one city. Then look at a non-shrine city, you won't see any +1 gold from shrine in it.

Some people build a shrine (or better, 2 shrines) in a city and use it as their main source of income. If you have your science slider up at 80-90%, and especially 100%, wall street isn't doing anything in your highest commerce city, but it will work wonders in your shrine city. I don't tend to do this, I will expand a lot plus I want cash for building things like city raider rifles/infantry so my science rate tends to be more like 30-50% if I'm running specialists or 50-70% once I'm on towns.

I'm confused by a lot of people posting saying they build Wall Street in their Shrine City. The Holy Shrine, as far as I've ever known, produces 1gpt for every city that shares that religion, not just the shrine city. So as long as your Oxford/Wall Street city shares your state religion, it too will get the 1gpt benefit.

If shrines worked the way that Spiral Mineret does, you would be correct.

Both combinations HE+IW & HE+WP have their strong and weak points, and there is no BEST choice here, no matter how smart you may want to sound. That said, imho, in 99% of the time i prefer HE+IW - rarely, if ever you'll have an overflow, and, it is almost always better to have 20 units with 6XP than 10 units with 10XP, this is especially true if you'r playing with aggressive civ (you get amphibious with 6XP for example). On high levels rarely will your IW be "busy" with building wonders and if you ever need nukes you'll be glad you have that combo. Recently i found that WP+GlobeT. works extremly well as well. If you are going for domination it is unlikely that only one of your cities will be assigned to produce military, rather it will be several. So it doesn't really matter is 10% of your units will have those extra 4 xp.

it is almost always better to have 20 units with 6XP than 10 units with 10XP
but what about the other 10 that my ironworks/red cross city made? don't forget them. it'll take longer for me to build 1 unit, but you longer to build 2.

If I remember correctly ironworks adds 100% to base production (with coal and iron) as does heroic epic for military. So 2 cities with say 40 base production: IW+HE gives 120in one city, 40 in other. If in seperate cities then get 80 production in both, so no net difference (except you don't pair up west point). If I've got this wrong I'm happy to be corrected. It's only if you had one city with substantially more production than anywhere else then it would benefit from IW and HE together.

to me, it's more a question of flexibility. you can have one city pumping out a unit a turn (hypothetically), or 2 cities, making a unit each every 2 turns. one will have 4 extra experience, one will have a free medic I. the unit numbers are the same, but the unit quality isn't.

to me, it's more a question of flexibility. you can have one city pumping out a unit a turn (hypothetically), or 2 cities, making a unit each every 2 turns. one will have 4 extra experience, one will have a free medic I. the unit numbers are the same, but the unit quality isn't.

Yep. And also remember: If you are going for a spaceship victory, you probably want your ironworks city producing spaceship parts. And if you are on a map that requires strong sea defences, the chances are you didn't build your heroic epic on a coastal city (because in the early game it's rare to find a coastal city that gives you a high enough base production to justify putting the heroic epic there) so you may want the ironworks in the coastal city to help naval production. And of course if you want any of the late game wonders, you probably want the ironworks to help build those. All those scenarios imply putting IW in a different city from HE so your HE city can get on with churning out lots of military.

A factor that is often decisive for me is the ironworks takes a lot of hammers to build. Very often, I simply can't afford to divert my heroic epic city away from military production for long enough to build the ironworks. (Sadly, that issue often prevents me building west point in my heroic epic city too, even though I'd ideally like to :sad: ).

One of the ironies I've always found with the heroic epic is you need a 10-xp unit to build it. When are you likely to first get a 10-xp unit? When you're in the middle of a war. And when you're in the middle of a war, do you really want to cut off half your military production for 10 or 20 turns so you can build the heroic epic...? :lol:

Often leads to me building the HE a lot later than I really want to. I also often find I'm in a war zone, my best offensive unit just gets promoted to 10xp - and its the unit that above all else should be out there taking out the enemy coz he's so strong with his 10xp. And what do I do with this unit? Yep, I rush him straight back to the safety of my homeland coz I absolutely don't want to get him killed (well not until AFTER the HE has been safely built).

As an aside, I'm always curious: If halfway through HE production, you lose all your 10xp units in battle, does the game tell you you can't build the HE any more, the same way it does with wonders you've just got beaten to, or units that you've just lost the resource for? I assume it does but have never wanted to risk testing it ;)

Yep, I rush him straight back to the safety of my homeland coz I absolutely don't want to get him killed
it's recently been called to my attention that as long as you have a unit reach level 4 at any time, you can build the heroic epic, same with lvl 5 and west point. even if they die the turn after they're promoted.

(all you need to enable HE or WP is you had a unit of level 4 or 5 at some time in the game, it doesn't matter if it died)

I usually split HE and ironworks, I would rather have the flexibility that comes with having two major production centres most of the time and I don't like tying up the HE city forever building IW. In space race games even at high levels, I find that the ironworks city tends to have little time for military because it's either building wonders, Apollo or space parts. I'm quite happy for it to stand alone.

69 isn't 74 though. To get to 74, you'd probably need to catch a lucky extra resource, or some food and the Angkor Wat, or attach a Specialist or two.

It really makes no difference whether you have 74 hammers or 69. If you have 74, then you get 15 Modern Armor in 15 turns. If you have 69, then it takes 16 turns. So what?

Getting to the level of putting out one unit per turn was very important in Civ3, because of no production carryover. But it's almost irrelevant in Civ4.

It really makes no difference whether you have 74 hammers or 69. If you have 74, then you get 15 Modern Armor in 15 turns. If you have 69, then it takes 16 turns. So what?

So 15/16, which may well be good enough, doesn't meet the challenge as set forth by Crumbs. Shrug.

One of the ironies I've always found with the heroic epic is you need a 10-xp unit to build it. When are you likely to first get a 10-xp unit? When you're in the middle of a war.

This is a good reason not to bust too much fog at the start; I usually get my first 10xp unit either from animals + an experience hut or from fighting barbarians. I consider it one of my significant early game objectives because heroic epic is such a nice toy. The 17xp unit for west point is the one that requires wars, I make a point of coddling a high XP unit to get it up to 17 unless it's obvious several are going to hit it.

And like someone else pointed out, you only need to have had a 10/17xp unit at some point in the game, it doens't have to be alive. I always thought it was silly that a unit that did great deeds and finally died wasn't considered appropriate for a heroic epic.

it's recently been called to my attention that as long as you have a unit reach level 4 at any time, you can build the heroic epic, same with lvl 5 and west point. even if they die the turn after they're promoted.

Ooh thanks naterator (and everyone else who's made the same point). That knowledge certainly will change my tactics a bit - give me one less thing to have to plan for!

i'm with pantastic here.
the 10 xp's unit is easy to reach!

the 17 xp's is a lot harder, but given the fact to you did build the heroic epic before you need this special unit, and given the fact that you can churn out catapults very fast with it, you can build a bunch of 8XP (CR 2 is my personnal favourite) cats going on suicide runs, with high xp if lucky win

That said, imho, in 99% of the time i prefer HE+IW - rarely, if ever you'll have an overflow, and, it is almost always better to have 20 units with 6XP than 10 units with 10XP, this is especially true if you'r playing with aggressive civ (you get amphibious with 6XP for example).


Even assuming a city with no production bonus whatsoever besides those wonders, if you made 10 units with HE, then you'll only make 15 units with WP+IW, not 20. (300% production instead of 200% = 50% more units, not 100% more units). In the more probable scenario where the city has 100% bonus besides the wonders, you'll only get 13 units instead of 10 (400% is only 33% more than 300%). This is very poor use of the Ironworks. Even if you didn't want to use West Point and Red Cross at all for whatever reason, you'd be better off separating them, because you could then get 10 units from one city and 10 from another, instead of 13 from one and 6 or 7 from the other (assuming 100% basic production bonus, with less it gets worse).

West Point makes it so there's no comparison at all. Also the fact that you can use IW for other purposes. Having HE and IW in the same city is just plain dumb.

I don't think it's dumb. But I do think that people who think that only one strategy is good are.
I was typing that post in the rush, but you’re right in that its not exactly 100% more production. Still, I prefer IW in the city with HE instead of WP. Since I rarely go for the boring space race, I rarely see a better use of IW here. Not to mention that there are cases where WP is harder to get by than IW. I still prefer speed over those 4XP, even if it means making 15 units instead of 10. There are other advantages of that combo and one is faster nukes as I said before. Like I said before, there are cases where one is better than the other, but claiming that one is always better than the other is simply not true.

I don't think it's dumb. But I do think that people who think that only one strategy is good are.

But going with IW+HE 99% of the time is the sign of a smart player? I think you are descending into the realm of self parody here.

for Max military production you should go with IW +HE
because
The chance of you having 2 cities tied for top base production is small.
Since the benefit you get is dependent on base production... the best place to put HE will also be the best place to put IW.

However, the Closer the top two are, the less of a Quantity for Quality (HE+WP, IW+Red Cross) loss you are taking.

Of course that also assumes you will spend more two cities building Units.

The advantage of a HE+IW city is it allows you to have exactly one city building Military. (good for a Peaceful game as you might not get WP anyways).. of course that trade off means that IW is stuck in Military builds. Of course you can probably get away with just HE+WP if it is in a very good city.

Overall I'd say HE+IW is only useful
1. if you aren't getting West Point soon (no likely wars)
AND
2. if you need that large Army while your Other (decent) cities build civilian things

Good option for a 'continent to yourself' Cultural Win.. or even Space Race Win, if your other cities have good production. (especially on a Large Map, where it will take one a HE+IW production to maintain your army size if its the Only military city)

OR
You have one city that has Much more base production than your second most.
(This would work in a Domination/Conquest, especially if you targeted Cannons over Cavalry... and Had one Very Good City... You Settled Engineers there, etc.)

But going with IW+HE 99% of the time is the sign of a smart player? I think you are descending into the realm of self parody here.

No, I’m actually not. Because I clearly said in my first post that there is no best and definite strategy here. Just because I prefer to play one way, doesn't mean I think it's superior to another style. I suggest reading again before making statements like those.

Heroic Epic -- Build this someplace that has good production, right? Then make sure you keep the production up with forge, factory, etc.

Consider building this early where there is lots of food. If you have a city that can regrow one pop per turn, then your production can hit 112 hammers per turn with just Heroic Epic, Forge, and Globe Theater. At this point in the game, that's 10 regular production cities worth of hammers. If you save that Nat'l Wonder slot for West Point or Iron Works, which come 1000-1500 years later, you'll then have a city that's only worth two regular cities.

Consider building this early where there is lots of food...with just Heroic Epic...and Globe Theater.

Yes, that's some liberal editing. But it gets the point across that Heroic Epic is early, and can be linked with other wonders.

Generally, having a single city devoted to military production is never a good thing. You'd need to be at an extreme lack for excellent production sites to justify coupling Heroic Epic and Ironworks.

Sure, putting them together in the same city is an alternative. Then again, so is not building any military units at all. Which is to say, just because it's there for the 1-2 turn Modern Armors doesn't mean that you wouldn't be better off with two cities producing 2-4 turn Modern Armors (as many if not more, and potentially better).

If you get the same production by running HE and Ironworks in seperate cities as one city then it comes down to personal style and preference.

If you get the same production by running HE and Ironworks in seperate cities as one city then it comes down to personal style and preference.

it's not just personnal style

there are some pure facts :
Fact 1:
Heroic epic comes early (most of the time), and you want to build units there almost non-stop.
Each turn where you build anything else is a turn where you lose the 100% bonus.

Fact 2:
You need more than 1 good production city. Be it for building wonders, SS parts, or more units.
If your HE city is your only good production city, you'll have a really hard time building anything, including the RC, WP, Globe theater, ...

Fact 3:
there are 3 different national wonders affecting military. 1 about speed (HE), 2 about quality (WP, RC).
Quality without quantity is worth nothing (not true the other way round : quantity without quality can be enough).
So if you want to put the quality things to a good use, you need to pair them with high production.
WP is obviously more flexible than RC, WP city needs ti churn out as many units as possible. RC city can also be used for other things (wonders, SS parts), but you can use a few marching (medic + 1 promotion!) units :) .


That gives an optimum configuration, where HE and WP are paired (barrack is needed too, of course), and RC is simply paired with a barrack and some good production.
Since you want to put IW in a good production city, and the major unit city already has all national wonders built, the RC city is a good candidate.
Not the only one though.
I'm going to try for a national epic / IW combination, with loads of GE :)

Cabert: as you may see from my earlier posts I actually agree with you. However I'm trying to get out of the habit of singeing people who play different to me and there's more than one path to the top of the hill.

Cabert: as you may see from my earlier posts I actually agree with you. However I'm trying to get out of the habit of singeing people who play different to me and there's more than one path to the top of the hill.

true enough, and i didn't want to be rude

However, multiple paths going to the top doesn't mean every path leads there.
I'm pretty sure IW and HE is a loss.
The loss isn't obviously in the super producing city.
It's the unability to use WP and RC effectively.
That was my only point.

And i can understand that if you churn 1 unit per turn since 3000 BC, you can do pretty well without WP and RC.
There even is a high probability that you never see RC built, if you conquer soon enough.