I'm currently playing at Prince. I'm reasonably comfortable with the starting game (up to 1500 or so) but I tend to lose my way after that. Are there any good strategy guides and/or tips to guide me during mid/late game? I realise that this is a bit vague but I'm looking for principles and if/then statements rather than a specific formula:)

It would help if you explain what do you mean by 'loosing way', what actually happens? You're not tech leader any more, you drop down on score board, you get wiped out?

You might attach some save game at that critical point.

I think often when people lose on this level, it is because they either over extend themselves, or as I used to do, I stop attacking because I'm the most dominant, and work on culture and infrustructure. Which is good, but once I switched to doing that, but at the same time keeping preassure on my opponets I won easliy. You have to have the right blend of military and economy, but don't allow yourself to become one demensional if you are not specifically trying to win by culture or annhilation.

As a specific example I've been shadowing Sisiutil's ALC Qin game. I've got up to 1775. I've captured a continent, got about 20 cities, I'm ahead on score, power, gnp, production and I've got a tech lead. I've got cautious/friendly relations with the surviving civs (MM,Vic,Bis,Asoka). Basically at this point I'd have to do something really stupid to lose. I'm thinking about a space race victory. I've already run this through once and got space victory in 1923. But I don't know how to play it better in terms of research path, building new units or upgrading exisiting units, building order, civics, improving health and happiness when old resources become obselete, diplomacy to stop any unpleasant aggression and so on.

OK, I'll check the save game and that ALC thread too see what's this game about ;)

pigswill,

Well, I'm not sure if your 1923 Spaceship victory beats my 1931 Domination (it probably does!) - but please find attached for your interest. ;)

I went after a Domination I guess as a point of difference. At the 1775 stage where the game is picked up, there's basically no navy and with the exception of 9 Infantry and 3 Cav's, nothing that you would feel confident about running with an off-shore invasion with. I was not sure why Divine Right was being researched. I was also not sure why Pacifism was a selected civic (esp. with no National Epic).

The four key technologies I pursued were Scientific Method (Oil), Combustion (Transports), Artillery, and Industrialism (Marines, Tanks, Battleships). I figured that as the first invasion force that I'd build 10 Transports that would carry 10 Infantry, 10 Marines, 10 Tanks, and 10 Artillery, plus 7 Battleships - 3 by way of chaperoning the Transports and 2x2 as anti-invasion patrol. I did upgrade a few of the units with promotions such as City Raider 3. Initially I switched to Universal Suffrage and Organised Religion to help get the Factories built before switching into 'war mode' (Vassalage, Theocracy). The Pentagon was a Wonder that I wanted badly.

I decided to go after India first - no Defensive Pacts and quite a few coastal cities. It took about 70 or 80 years to get the invasion force ready. I was able to pick up some good Wonders from India including The Statue of Liberty and The Kremlin. The rest of China was pretty well just churning out units, although eventually getting Flight was particularly important for the Airports. Plastics was pursued for the Three Gorges Dam (burned a Great Engineer in the process).

After India fell I was in a real quandary as to whether the combined forces of Bismarck and Victoria or Mansa would be the next target. The Bismarck-Victoria option was the one I went with, as (a.) the bulk of my forces were already on their continent, (b.) both were missing a few key resources, (c.) Bismarck looked a fair bit more backward than the other two, and (d.) Mansa was in striking distance of my poorly defended mainland whereas Bismarck-Victoria would need to develop and send out a fleet. Mansa got dealt into the conflict by agreeing to attack Victoria for Fascism. In the end there were loads more units than necessary to take the continent, although Mansa did take a city for himself.

Anyway, I hope you get something from this. :)

[Edit: Removed saved game - running low on server space]

Thanks Cam H. I was running pacifism because I hadn't been running it earlier and wanted to finish off GS and GE before switching to free religion. I'd gone to DR because of the annoying habit the game has of making you pick a tech before you can really look at the game, so that was purely a stopgap until I decided which path I was going to follow. Nice win (and you did outpoint me).The reason I went for spaceship rather than domination is I've done domination before but not spaceship. I liked your logic re targets. I'd probably have picked on MM first and faced a large continent full of defensive pacts.

I was running pacifism because I hadn't been running it earlier and wanted to finish off GS and GE before switching to free religion.
OK ... I can see the sense in that. :) Going to Organised Religion is another approach for faster Factories, Power Plants, Observatories, Banks, and Laboratories. The very positive relations that all the tribes had allowed you to run with Confucianism for a while longer if you wanted further infrastructure development.

I'd gone to DR because of the annoying habit the game has of making you pick a tech before you can really look at the game, so that was purely a stopgap until I decided which path I was going to follow.
I thought that it was a strange choice, and was wondering if there was something great about the Divine Right technology that I wasn't aware of! Thanks for the explanation.

Nice win (and you did outpoint me). I liked your logic re targets. I'd probably have picked on MM first and faced a large continent full of defensive pacts.
It started off fairly carefully, with lots of tweaking of the cities' citizens and thought-out worker instructions, spread Confucianism in India for spy-value, created a plan where I could garner an appropriate critical mass for the invasion, etc., and by the end it was a micromanager's nightmare - automated workers, sleeping workers in cities, rampant largely unaddressed war weariness, uneven and sometimes useless city garrisons, supermarkets after the city shows unhealthiness, and on it went! :crazyeye: I was quite surprised to buy Mansa into the fight with just a dead-end technology.

One thing that I will not do again in hindsight is give such a high proportion of the Marines the City Garrison promotions. I also could have churned out a few Explorer-Medics rather than use Medic promotions on my combat troops.

I doubt that it was the most efficient game in the end ;), although the broad strategy I think was right. The war weariness would have ended within four turns however, as both England and Germany were on death's door.

The reason I went for spaceship rather than domination is I've done domination before but not spaceship.
Congratulations on your spaceship win! Was it close? Were you attacked?

Spaceship victory was actually a cake-walk. I stayed ahead on everything throughout; Asoka was on his fifth casing when I launched. Military I stayed on top of power, gifted remaining civs with sundry resources and non-military techs and actually improved relations with all. Not even a hint of threats let alone attack.
Where it became messy is that I left researching rocketry late and hadn't appreciated the difficulty in rushing Apollo which meant I had cities hanging around waiting to start building components. Then I had questions like is it better to build labs first or space elevator, what do I do with a GE when I've got fusion, should I be going for kremlin or pentagon or 3Gorges or all of them. When I started to look for guidance I didn't really find any hence this thread.
I do find it odd that people will debate the game start endlessly and argue about issues like early axe-rush, founding religions, early slingshots etc but there appears much less interest in maxing the mid-game.

The main problem for many problems at this part of the game is the tech tree. I don't think theres a huge difference at the start, most people know what techs do get.

But once you are at the Alphabet/Math/Constr/Machinery/Monarchy/Theology portion of the tech tree, you need to figure out how you are going to go about teching. Going back and forth from the top middle ot bottom is not going to get you anywhere.

Personally I race to liberalism, and then go from there. Use tech trading to your advantage, I always end up giving the AI's awesome deals, like I'll have an 8k tech, and he'll give me two 3k techs for it. I don't mind though. Because it means hes running all over the tech tree map, and before he knows it I'll be walking Rifles in, or running Cavalry in.

I think the midgame is hard to discuss because there are the most options. Opening games are all rather similar, and endgames tend to converge too. But midgames can see you with a wildly varying set of technologies and capabilities. So it's harder to generalize.

Still, here's one thought: Midgame is the time to pick your victory condition. At Prince/Monarch level, you don't have to commit until after 1000 AD. But by 1500 or so, you really have to know where you're heading. You won't usually have the luxury of pursuing two or more victory conditions. (Though, sure, it can happen sometimes.)

This was a hard lesson for me to learn, because I get distracted easily. But the game rewards commitment. If you're chasing a cultural victory, don't bother with that war with Cyrus. Yes, he's annoying, but it's a total distraction from the work at hand. If you're chasing Space Race, think twice before devoting your production city to Pentagon for twenty turns. And so on.

Note that cultural wins often involve cranking the culture slider up, which means cranking the tech slider *down*. Most of us find this incredibly counterintuitive and scary. So we dink around with 20% culture or something, which is likely to be the worst of both worlds... takes enough away from tech that the AI civs will pull ahead, but isn't high enough to claim the win much before 2000.

Note also that UUs can really bend your thinking here. If you're playing England or Russia, you might have a great cultural came going. But then... oooo... Cossacks! And you suddenly go a-conquering, whether it's called for or not.

Anyway. Your point is well taken -- I'd like to see someone discuss strategies.

Oh, hell, here's one. If you're going after Liberalism, and think you may get it, crank up the engineers in your GP farm. The goal here is to pop a GE within a few turns of getting Liberalism -- before or after, it doesn't matter.

When you get Liberalism, take Nationalism as your freebie. (You might do this anyway, since it's one of the more expensive techs.) It's likely that nobody else will have it, because the AIs always seem to prioritize Liberalism over Nationalism.

Now use your GE to build the Taj Mahal. Boom, Golden Age -- and at a cost of one GP, not two. This is particularly nice if you're at war, or expecting to be; or if your civ is large (15 cities or more).

I think of this as the Taj Mahal Slingshot, but I'm sure it has a name already.


Waldo

... Where it became messy is that I left researching rocketry late and hadn't appreciated the difficulty in rushing Apollo which meant I had cities hanging around waiting to start building components. Then I had questions like is it better to build labs first or space elevator, what do I do with a GE when I've got fusion, should I be going for kremlin or pentagon or 3Gorges or all of them. When I started to look for guidance I didn't really find any hence this thread ...pigswill,

(Retitle thread to "Late game strategies"?) ;)

It's a classic "if ... then ... else" sort of scenario which can determine which paths to take. While I'm well aware of what your game was like, the sort of 'generic' questions one may ask could include: What is your technology lead / lag like? If you're lagging, but not hopelessly, is The Internet a feasible option? Many scoff at The Internet, but if bee-lined, it works!
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Are you likely to get attacked, and if so, how are your defences? Can you rely on Infantry for a while and go straight to Rocketry, or will you need to work the Electricity path as priority to get to Industrialism and later Radio + Flight for Bombers?
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Do you have any Great Engineers stored up for The Space Elevator? How important is it to get to Fission for the Great Engineer, or can you prioritise Robotics?
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Do you own The Kremlin, and can you live without it when Fibre Optics is discovered? How necessary is the cheap upgrades to Mechanical Infantry if you're chasing Fusion's Great Engineer?
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Do you have a source of copper and a source of aluminium? Can you live without, or will you need to 'acquire' some - if so, how?
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Are you going to lose in a head-to-head space race? Should you rely on nuclear warfare to tip the scales to your advantage? If so, how do you build a strategy around that and still get your spaceship completed?I'm sure there are other questions and factors that might push you one way or the other.

For what it's worth, my path typically is; Assembly Line - Factories and Power Plants are clearly of massive benefit in speeding production. Rush buying everything is only going to get you 'so far' when it comes to the space race. Infantry make solid defenders that should be able to fend off all but armored units for much of the late game.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Rocketry - As you note, Apollo usually takes quite some time to build. Along the way you get Artillery (yay!) and SAMs (can be handy if the opposition has Flight).
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Computers - Laboratories are one of the best city improvements for your science cities (increased flask output) and production cities (faster spaceship part builds).
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Robotics - I usually have The Kremlin and like to upgrade a few units to Mechanical Infantry. Getting The Space Elevator is a real coup.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Fusion - if I can get the Great Engineer and burn him on The Space Elevator, that's great, but regardless the Engine is the equal largest part to build and there's no benefit here from copper or aluminium.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Genetics - the Stasis Chamber is another large spaceship part, and the health bonus might be handy.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/wordmix_3/blank_10x10.gif Ecology - Usually the last technology, as Life Support is a relatively small spaceship part.There are arguments both for and against the various Wonders in the late game: I have built The Internet on a few occasions, and have thrice found it valuable, having bee-lined to Computers and then through Plastics. It sets your plans for Apollo back a fair way, but gives you good productivity in the lead up (organised Religion with Factories, Power Plants, and Lab's). With a good technology lead, it's pretty useless, but I have picked up a heap of technologies in games where I'm in touch with the A.I.

I do tend to pursue The Space Elevator, as much for denying the A.I. of it as for my own benefit. I am aware of the criticism of its lateness in the game, but an early run at Robotics with a couple of Great Engineers to burn can imho make this a very worthwhile asset.

I will often take a shot at The Three Gorges Dam, however it's often gone before I get there. Ultimately you will be relying on the productivity of your three or four most prolific cities, and you should be able to easily build power plants in these without relying on this Wonder. I have only once ever had a meltdown from a Nuclear Plant and therefore tend to run with these over Coal Plants if health becomes problematic.