These guys are getting shutout in the favorite civ poll! Is it because:

A - They're good?
B - Eurabatres isn't in the game yet?
C - The color purple?
D - The "boy"-king leader?
E - Any other reasons?

I'm playing a game with them now and I guess they feel almost normal. I'm sure the Dragon will help.

I remember we have discussed giving them very special Traderoutes (they shall get food and production via traderoutes too) as well as some enhanced improvements (like a better upgraded version of the town or upgradeable farms).

And yes i hope the dragon will help, too.

Well if we're done with the Luchuirp then why not figure out the Kuriotates. I say that they should be sort of like the doviello in that their units are often animal/human hybrids, but the Kuriotates units are good guys. For example: centaurs, mermaids, eaglemen, treefolk, Goat-riders, etc.

If the Kuriotates are centered around a "benign" Dragon, I definitely feel we should be going for a Human, Oriental Mystic kind of feel to all this. Maybe give them some interesting gunpowder-based units?

FfH lacks a "generic" human race, as it were, one that doesn't either have an angelic leader or consist of magical creatures.

what about the malakim?

Oriental Mystic to me feels like Monks, Ninjas, Samurai, Tibetan wisemen, ect. Hand to hand UUs and super constitution for the units. And obviously wise and dragon worshipping.

Oriental Mystic to me feels like Monks, Ninjas, Samurai, Tibetan wisemen, ect. Hand to hand UUs and super constitution for the units. And obviously wise and dragon worshipping.
I'm starting to agree with woodelf on this one. Isn't purple a very oriental color? Bow before the power of my uber Kuriotates ninjas!

Everyone comes to Planet Woodelf eventually. :p (most leave quickly...)

The Chuck Norris mod will come in handy. I had some Kung Fu/hand to hand ideas floating in my brain back when I was thinking of making a mod. Thankfully I abandoned that idea.

The dragon won't be enough to save them. And art flavor is only a temporary solution, we need a design function. What are their strengths, what are their weaknesses?

The design guide gives us "creation". Birth, renewal, the opposite of destruction.

I like Chalids idea of increased city sizes and a bigger town improvement. Maybe some immobile units that are spawned free in the "upgraded town" tile? Maybe they gain certain benifits at increased city sizes.

They should be the best able to cultivate the land, and the most effected by pillaging.

From a unit perspective I like having the centaurs with them as super archers (archery isnt a strength of any civ right now). But we need more.

I dont really like the asian theme because we havent added human racial differences at any point and it seems weird to now. And everyone who looks at it will think of the asian theme stereotype. Id rather let someone on the art team develop their own style for the units than borrow an earthly one.

Could we still go highly spiritual and hand to hand combat? That would be unique if they focused on that and didn't bother with axes, maces, and the such. Centaurs are fine, but thrown weaponry would be nifty too.

Tibetan wisemen

I sort of imagine Cardith Lorda as a kind of young Dalai Llama:)

The Creation-thing is definately good, the Kuriotates might well have the best infrastructure of any civ, given time. They might also get a special worker for their unique improvements. Perhaps this worker would only have 1 movement, making placing improvements more time-consuming, and making pillage recovery an even greater problem. This might be a good balancing factor for their powerful improvements.

With Arcane Lore they could get access to a special improvement, something that harnesses innate arcane energy and uses it to vastly increase terrain potential. This improvement can only be build on a mana node, it gives truly massive bonuses to hammers and commerce, but it will eventually suck the mana node dry, leaving a normal tile behind. Kind of similar to the Veil improvement that slowly degenerates terrain we discusssed earlier, but without the evilness.

But we need more...

EDIT: Come to think of it, the mana-improvement might fit the Amurites better.

I sort of imagine Cardith Lorda as a kind of young Dalai Llama:)

The Creation-thing is definately good, the Kuriotates might well have the best infrastructure of any civ, given time. They might also get a special worker for their unique improvements. Perhaps this worker would only have 1 movement, making placing improvements more time-consuming, and making pillage recovery an even greater problem. This might be a good balancing factor for their powerful improvements.

With Arcane Lore they could get access to a special improvement, something that harnesses innate arcane energy and uses it to vastly increase terrain potential. This improvement can only be build on a mana node, it gives truly massive bonuses to hammers and commerce, but it will eventually suck the mana node dry, leaving a normal tile behind. Kind of similar to the Veil improvement that slowly degenerates terrain we discusssed earlier, but without the evilness.

But we need more...

EDIT: Come to think of it, the mana-improvement might fit the Amurites better.

Yeah, I dont picture the Kuriotates as having a strong arcane bent, they are the more natural of the civs.

Natural as in homeopathic meds, multiple god worshipping, and mental prowess instead of magic?

I think they should be peaceful, but have strong enough beliefs that they will war for certain reasons. I have no idea what those beliefs are yet though...

Originally posted by Loki1232
what about the malakim?
The Malakim are people, sure, but lead by an elf. The Kuriotates are people lead by other people.

Would an extra food on village and town tiles (in addition to common bonuses) vastly overpower them? It could mean huge and rich cities. Is there any way to cap the number of total cities they can have, making them a super-centralised civ? That would be a new playing style for some, and suit turtlers like me pretty well, just like the Hippus suit a conquering playing style...

I'm thinking something along the lines of ivory towers, great cities, totally urbanised areas around the cities, loads of specialists, but probably give them few units with high movement rates, and a lot of immobile (but strong) units. And I still kind of like the idea of a vaguely oriental feel to go with the dragon, it doesn't in any way have to be overpowering, just a slight oriental look to the art.

Is there any way to cap the number of total cities they can have, making them a super-centralised civ? That would be a new playing style for some, and suit turtlers like me pretty well, just like the Hippus suit a conquering playing style...

I like the idea of making the Kuriotates focused on super-centralisation, but I still don't think we should literally force players to do it through an artificial city limit. I think it would be better if we decreased the inclination to build many cities by for example:
1)Make their settlers much more expensive
2)Give their settlers just 1 movement
3)Increase Maintenance costs for large empires for the Kuriotates.

To give them some bonuses in the area of super-centralisation, perhaps the 2-per-city restriction on National Wonders could be lifted for them? Of course it might not be that big a deal, as there are relatively few of them in the game at the moment.

hell, i really love your way to approach everything :P

when you come to a conclusion about what they should do and how they should look like, i would not deny (denie?!) to do the units for them. if no one else wants to do them...
But my next plan is to make hippus units more like the ones on their buttons. next week i hope.

I like the idea of making the Kuriotates focused on super-centralisation, but I still don't think we should literally force players to do it through an artificial city limit. I think it would be better if we decreased the inclination to build many cities by for example:
1)Make their settlers much more expensive
2)Give their settlers just 1 movement
3)Increase Maintenance costs for large empires for the Kuriotates.

To give them some bonuses in the area of super-centralisation, perhaps the 2-per-city restriction on National Wonders could be lifted for them? Of course it might not be that big a deal, as there are relatively few of them in the game at the moment.

I like number 3 the best to curb their growth.

A long time ago I talked with Kael about ever increasing the cost of settlers. That would work for these guys. The first costs X, the next 1.2X, then 1.5X, and so on.

Too bad we couldn't somehow include a way that if their empire got too big it simply fractured into 2 separate empires. :)

@ seZ - It's deny. I can't wait to see more Hippus dudes!

Well I'm not sure if we want to force them to use cottage improvements. What if all of their terrain improvements gave +1 food, or +1 sheild if it already gave food? I don't think of them as having much use for gold.

For me, they are not urbanized, more natural and natury. So there is nothing wrong with having many large cities. However, that might make them unbalanced. What if they had to pay extra for city maintenance as it got farther from the capital? This would make for more centralization around their "cool" leader and also avoid uber overpowered kuriotates empires.

I think that we should also give them a bunch of UU's. Since Kael doesn't like the oriental feel, what about the man/animal hybrids?

So Centaurs, satyrs, mermaids, hawkmen, (is there a snake/human mix?).

As said i would really like them to be something like a bif fat cow that can develop into a powerfull bull or into kind of a milk cow...

How about making most of their improvements upgradeable. So thei get powerfull improvements but are easiely pillged to dust. Centaurs are already planned for them so that will be a good start for the animal man. But we lack of course models at the moment.

The traderoute thing i proposed would work for them but also for the elhohim. As long as they are at goot terms with many neighbors their cities flourish (additional food and production are powerfull) but when trade stops their star goes down.

So Centaurs, satyrs, mermaids, hawkmen, (is there a snake/human mix?).

Yes and a usually really bad one.. Nagas...

Yes and a usually really bad one.. Nagas...

Thanks. I couldn't recall the name. They are awesome!

I think that the elohim would do more with trade routes, because i think of them as a more outwards looking culture.

I think that the improvements will be their economic advantage, and perhaps the man/animals will specialize in archery, because as Kael said we already have a lot of melee/spellcaster specialist civs.

Do we have a Ballista model? That would be a nice siege weapon for them.

Do we have a Ballista model? That would be a nice siege weapon for them.

Yeah, that would be nice. What if they also got a trebuchet as a late-game siege weapon? I think it fits their flavor nicely.

So should we start putting together a list of some new units for them?

Cardith Lorda is Creative and Philosophical, same as Perpentach. Perhaps that could indicate that the Kuriotates would also be focused somewhat on the cultural/entertainment aspect of civilization, but in a less evil way than the Balseraphs(and we certainly wouldn't want to steal their flavour). I can imagine stuff like tourneys or faires, knights in sparkling armour, dancers and singers. Something like Lord Renly and the people of Highgarden, if anyone here's ever read A Song of Ice and Fire. The most carefree and high-spirited of the good civilizations, but not adverse to combat when it comes to protecting their lands, like the Elohim are.

For example, they could have "The Tourney" as a National Wonder. This wonder is quite special, because when it is built it only lasts for 10 turns(maybe 20). After that its effects(and it) disappear from the city, but that frees it up to be built elsewhere, so it can move around in your empire.
Its effects could be something like this.
+4 xp for new melee and mounted units in this city
No:mad: in this city
+50% :culture:
-25% :hammers: (people won't get much work done)

Perhaps enable training of special unique units during the tourney, or randomly spawn some. Like the Champion unit, which might be a unit of random type with a fairly low icombat but with the Hero promotion.

Something like that might also work for the Balseraphs, who could have the travelling "Carnival of Shadows" instead. Its effect should be a bit different, though.

Cardith Lorda is Creative and Philosophical, same as Perpentach. Perhaps that could indicate that the Kuriotates would also be focused somewhat on the cultural/entertainment aspect of civilization, but in a less evil way than the Balseraphs(and we certainly wouldn't want to steal their flavour). I can imagine stuff like tourneys or faires, knights in sparkling armour, dancers and singers. Something like Lord Renly and the people of Highgarden, if anyone here's ever read A Song of Ice and Fire. The most carefree and high-spirited of the good civilizations, but not adverse to combat when it comes to protecting their lands, like the Elohim are.

For example, they could have "The Tourney" as a National Wonder. This wonder is quite special, because when it is built it only lasts for 10 turns(maybe 20). After that its effects(and it) disappear from the city, but that frees it up to be built elsewhere, so it can move around in your empire.
Its effects could be something like this.
+4 xp for new melee and mounted units in this city
No:mad: in this city
+50% :culture:
-25% :hammers: (people won't get much work done)

Perhaps enable training of special unique units during the tourney, or randomly spawn some. Like the Champion unit, which might be a unit of random type with a fairly low icombat but with the Hero promotion.

Something like that might also work for the Balseraphs, who could have the travelling "Carnival of Shadows" instead. Its effect should be a bit different, though.

Thats a mistake, Cardith should be Expansive and Philosophical.

I really like the idea of a traveling wonder. Im going to have to think about how to do it but I agree there is a potential to have some really neat effects from them.

Cardith Lorda is Creative and Philosophical, same as Perpentach. Perhaps that could indicate that the Kuriotates would also be focused somewhat on the cultural/entertainment aspect of civilization, but in a less evil way than the Balseraphs(and we certainly wouldn't want to steal their flavour). I can imagine stuff like tourneys or faires, knights in sparkling armour, dancers and singers. Something like Lord Renly and the people of Highgarden, if anyone here's ever read A Song of Ice and Fire. The most carefree and high-spirited of the good civilizations, but not adverse to combat when it comes to protecting their lands, like the Elohim are.

For example, they could have "The Tourney" as a National Wonder. This wonder is quite special, because when it is built it only lasts for 10 turns(maybe 20). After that its effects(and it) disappear from the city, but that frees it up to be built elsewhere, so it can move around in your empire.
Its effects could be something like this.
+4 xp for new melee and mounted units in this city
No:mad: in this city
+50% :culture:
-25% :hammers: (people won't get much work done)

Perhaps enable training of special unique units during the tourney, or randomly spawn some. Like the Champion unit, which might be a unit of random type with a fairly low icombat but with the Hero promotion.

Something like that might also work for the Balseraphs, who could have the travelling "Carnival of Shadows" instead. Its effect should be a bit different, though.

Nice idea. Yeah, i see the connection between them and highgarden. However, i think that the Kuriotates are more good than highgarden.

I also really like the champion idea. Or what if the effect of the tourney was to give a random unit in the city "elite". This would be a mini heroic-give XP until 50. It could only be given to a unit with less than 50 XP.

I have an idea about the other races being a big part of the Kuriotates.

Basically there would be around seven other races, and they would all replace various parts of the Kuriotates unit tree.

Races:
Naga-Replace the dark recon units(assassin, shadow, saboteur)
Centaurs-Replace most of the cavalry units(horseman, chariot, war chariot, war elephant. For these use the stats, not the idea of a centaur on an elephant.)
Eaglefolk-Replace the rest of the cavalry units(horse archer, camel archer, knight)
Giant Wurms (the guys from Magic)-Replace the siege weapons. Warious large worms. These guys will have greater normal strength and less bombardment strength than normal siege weapons.
Satyrs-Replace some archer units(longbowman, flurry, marksman)

Merfolk-Replace the combat naval units. This includes water spellcasters. They do not replace naval transport.
Giant Turtles-You guessed it, they replace naval transport ships.(these two races will not work until we have a more complex naval system)

How does this work?
there would be multiple "centaur units". Normal units would not be upgradeable to them and they would not be upgradable to other races. For example, a scout could upgrade to a hunter but not a centaur horseman. Then that hunter could upgrade to a ranger but not a naga assassin.

What do you all think?

I have an idea about the other races being a big part of the Kuriotates.

Basically there would be around seven other races, and they would all replace various parts of the Kuriotates unit tree.

Races:
Naga-Replace the dark recon units(assassin, shadow, saboteur)
Centaurs-Replace most of the cavalry units(horseman, chariot, war chariot, war elephant. For these use the stats, not the idea of a centaur on an elephant.)
Eaglefolk-Replace the rest of the cavalry units(horse archer, camel archer, knight)
Giant Wurms (the guys from Magic)-Replace the siege weapons. Warious large worms. These guys will have greater normal strength and less bombardment strength than normal siege weapons.
Satyrs-Replace some archer units(longbowman, flurry, marksman)

Merfolk-Replace the combat naval units. This includes water spellcasters. They do not replace naval transport.
Giant Turtles-You guessed it, they replace naval transport ships.(these two races will not work until we have a more complex naval system)

How does this work?
there would be multiple "centaur units". Normal units would not be upgradeable to them and they would not be upgradable to other races. For example, a scout could upgrade to a hunter but not a centaur horseman. Then that hunter could upgrade to a ranger but not a naga assassin.

What do you all think?

Thats a lot of art resources tied up in one civ. I would rather spread out units like this instead of spending so much of the art teams time on them only to have it wasted in games without the kuriotates in it.

I would love the units, but we need to do more with less.

BOO! Oh well. Perhaps later once we get more available art?

Other ideas:
1. The kuriotates get +1 food, hammer, or gold frome very tile producing 3 or more of that. If a tile is producing 3 or more in 2/3 categories, it gets bonuses in all of them.
2. Their leader gets three traits. This would be to symbolize his uberness.

BOO! Oh well. Perhaps later once we get more available art?

Other ideas:
1. The kuriotates get +1 food, hammer, or gold frome very tile producing 3 or more of that. If a tile is producing 3 or more in 2/3 categories, it gets bonuses in all of them.
2. Their leader gets three traits. This would be to symbolize his uberness.

I like the bonus trait idea to signify Cardith's uberness. What about a special trait, got any ideas?

One that gives +1 food, hammer, or gold from every tile producing 3 or more of that. If a tile is producing 3 or more in 2/3 categories,

No just kidding.

Perhaps he should get a happiness bonus and a city growth bonus? NOt really sure i'll post more when i have an idea.

Why not a Happiness bonus, like Expansive? +1 :) in all cities.

The Malakim are people, sure, but lead by an elf. The Kuriotates are people lead by other people.

Would an extra food on village and town tiles (in addition to common bonuses) vastly overpower them? It could mean huge and rich cities. Is there any way to cap the number of total cities they can have, making them a super-centralised civ? That would be a new playing style for some, and suit turtlers like me pretty well, just like the Hippus suit a conquering playing style...

I'm thinking something along the lines of ivory towers, great cities, totally urbanised areas around the cities, loads of specialists, but probably give them few units with high movement rates, and a lot of immobile (but strong) units. And I still kind of like the idea of a vaguely oriental feel to go with the dragon, it doesn't in any way have to be overpowering, just a slight oriental look to the art.

Yeah I agree with this, and an oriental feel is good as long as we dont go to strong (as much as I love Sez's ninja model we wont be able to use it).

I like the idea of making the Kuriotates focused on super-centralisation, but I still don't think we should literally force players to do it through an artificial city limit. I think it would be better if we decreased the inclination to build many cities by for example:
1)Make their settlers much more expensive
2)Give their settlers just 1 movement
3)Increase Maintenance costs for large empires for the Kuriotates.

To give them some bonuses in the area of super-centralisation, perhaps the 2-per-city restriction on National Wonders could be lifted for them? Of course it might not be that big a deal, as there are relatively few of them in the game at the moment.

I think this is the answer. The way to make the Kuriotates play differently than everyone else. Limit their city growth but give them uber production in the cities they do have. Appeal to players who want to run a tiny country.

If we do this we will have to:

1. Make sure their culture is under control, we don't want them out running the culture civs.

2. Come up with a way to keep them from skipping the increased settler cost by just taking cities (and auto-raze doesnt seem to fit our anti-destruction civ). This will probably be increased maintenance costs.

3. Scale this mechanic based on the world size.

4. Using Chalids suggestion we give them upgradeable improvements to allow their few cities to become super productive.

5. We will have to do something about resource constraints for them (iron, mithril, reagents, etc) since they wont be able to get them through spread.

6. If this mechanic is used for them Cardith should probably become Industrious and Organized.

One question before we assign this mechanic to the kuriotates:

1. Would this mechanic be better suited to another civ (khazad)?

5. We will have to do something about resource constraints for them (iron, mithril, reagents, etc) since they wont be able to get them through spread.

Perhaps something like the colonies in Civ III? Takes twice as long to build as normal resource improvements, buildable outside civ borders.

Perhaps something like the colonies in Civ III? Takes twice as long to build as normal resource improvements, buildable outside civ borders.

Don't think that will help as otehr civs will get those reosurces into their cultural influence. Maybe we give their upgraded mines an increased chance to spawn metals? (But that would better fit for Khazad i think).

National wonders that provide those things? As they can only build few National wonders (not many cities) they would have to decide which ones they want. Or maybe some a exclusive.

One question before we assign this mechanic to the kuriotates:

1. Would this mechanic be better suited to another civ (khazad)?

I think it might fit the Khazad equally well, but we'll be able to think of something else for the Khazad instead. Like maybe in FfH the dwarves like to have sprawling empires.

The mechanic would work well for the Khazad, but I still think we should be going for a more mountain-dependent feel for them, like making cities in mountainous or hilly regions their strongest cities and penalizing cities in the lowlands.

As for the resource problem: either eliminate resource requirements for certain key structures, or give loads of nation-specific small wonders that give these resources (mak'em expensive or perhaps project-based, to emphasise the "compact but powerful" idea). Or possibly make it much easier for the Kuriotates to trade for resources they need, perhaps by giving them a unique resource that is highly valued by the AI?

Hmm we once had that idea of transforming one resource into another more valuable one. How about introducing this for the kuriotates.
E.g. (sheep or silk) and dyes into clothes (that give 2 happy and are therfor valuable)
Reagents to medicine (+2 health)
Gold and gems to fine jewelry (+2 happy, maybe for kahzad as well?)
maybe one or two more

this would also allow their cities to grow farther.

I remember that idea. If it's possible, it would be genius! And the way to do it, I suppose, would be through Kuriotates-specific buildings. Would it be so that you needed a surplus of the resources in order to combine them?

I remember that idea. If it's possible, it would be genius! And the way to do it, I suppose, would be through Kuriotates-specific buildings. Would it be so that you needed a surplus of the resources in order to combine them?

We can set it up anyway we like it. A surplus sounds reasonable, or one of those buildings per available resource. Otherwise it would be a from one make 10 effect....

An apothecary for the reagent ---> meds transition
A jeweler for, well duh. :)
A tailor or seamstress building for the clothing

What happens to these buildings if you lose one of the resources? I think it should stay constructed, but no longer generate the end product.

That was the original plan for them a long time back woodelf. (switching them to offline buildings)

That was the original plan for them a long time back woodelf. (switching them to offline buildings)

I'm still playing catch-up. :D

A tailor or seamstress building for the clothing


I suggest we call it the Seamstresses Guild. :rotfl:

I suggest we call it the Seamstresses Guild.

Massive bonus to :) and slight increase in :yuck:, I assume?:p

Plus a certain bonus to law and order (or City Defence). Don't forget the Agony Aunts!

Okay, what we have so far:

1. The Kuriotates are going to be about less, more improved cities.

2. They will be unable to build more cities because? Maybe they start with 3 settlers and they can't make anymore? Or we block settler building after they have a certain amount of cities based on the world size.

3. What about taking over cities, they don't seem like the sort that would raze cities. Maybe whenever they take over a city that city is turned into immigrants which the Kuriotates can use to add to their cities population or for other effects (seems to be more fitting with the creation theme).

I tend to not want to just apply maintenance modifiers to force players into sticking with less cities. I worry abotu the AI's ability to deal with that, but more than that it will feel like we crippled them to casual players. I think specific restrictions are generally better than punishing options.

4. Increased traderoutes.

5. Upgradeable improvements.

6. The biggest limitation of their limited city model is that they wont be able to spread to get resources. The chance of being able to get reagents, mithril, mana, gunpowder, iron, etc is very low. So they will need something to help them get the good improvements other than spread.

Maybe they can use their immigrants to build settlements? Small cities that cant build anything but are enough to put out a little culture so they can claim land with them?

7. Centaurs- funtionaly mobile archers to help defend their kingdom. The defensive moves will be even more important if they have to cover a larger area with the non-unit producing "settlements" on it.

Other things on the table:

1. Crafting- making raw resources into manufactured goods.

How about making cultural borders expanding faster (and wider) for them?

Edit: oh and if they get so few cities how about allowing them to use the third circle of plots for their cities...

Edit: oh and if they get so few cities how about allowing them to use the third circle of plots for their cities...

Is that possible? That would be extremely cool.

THat would be very cool.

Is that possible? That would be extremely cool.
Yes it is possible: The difficlut thing is allowing it only to the kuriotates.

Okay, what we have so far:

1. The Kuriotates are going to be about less, more improved cities.

2. They will be unable to build more cities because? Maybe they start with 3 settlers and they can't make anymore? Or we block settler building after they have a certain amount of cities based on the world size.

3. What about taking over cities, they don't seem like the sort that would raze cities. Maybe whenever they take over a city that city is turned into immigrants which the Kuriotates can use to add to their cities population or for other effects (seems to be more fitting with the creation theme).

I tend to not want to just apply maintenance modifiers to force players into sticking with less cities. I worry abotu the AI's ability to deal with that, but more than that it will feel like we crippled them to casual players. I think specific restrictions are generally better than punishing options.

4. Increased traderoutes.

5. Upgradeable improvements.

6. The biggest limitation of their limited city model is that they wont be able to spread to get resources. The chance of being able to get reagents, mithril, mana, gunpowder, iron, etc is very low. So they will need something to help them get the good improvements other than spread.

Maybe they can use their immigrants to build settlements? Small cities that cant build anything but are enough to put out a little culture so they can claim land with them?

7. Centaurs- funtionaly mobile archers to help defend their kingdom. The defensive moves will be even more important if they have to cover a larger area with the non-unit producing "settlements" on it.

Other things on the table:

8. Crafting- making raw resources into manufactured goods.

1. Yes. But will these be industrialized cities or sprawling natural cities?

2. I like them starting with 3 settlers and then being blocked. Or more on a big map.

3. What if when they take over another capital/holy city then they get another settler? When they take over a non-capital/holy city then they get some speical workers (migrants) that can be added as pop to their cities.

4. Since they have so few cities, perhaps they get increased yeilds on traderoutes, including food and shields. maybe htey also get a traderoute enhancing building?

5. What do you mean by this? That they can build two improvements instead of just one on each space? That would be pretty hot! And of course the second one would take much longer to build, so they would only end up with uber cities near the end of the game. And like 50 turns must go by before they can build the second improvement.

6. I like the settlement ideas, or what about simply trading to other civs for them?

7. So the centaurs are their border gaurds? Nice idea, except that it might be more fun if their centaurs were attack oriented archers. Like big attack bonuses. And of course, high movement.

8. I don't really like this idea for the kuriotates. I would envision this as a mechanic for a larger, more merchant civ that had more food resources than it knew what to do with.

Is that possible? That would be extremely cool.

OMG INSANE IDEA!! This will totally make the kuriotates my favorite for slow build games.

Regarding limiting their city building capacities: We have to make sure their max number of cities jars with stuff like Runevaults and other advanced buildings that regquire a set number of inferior buildings to allow them to be built.

How about making cultural borders expanding faster (and wider) for them?

Edit: oh and if they get so few cities how about allowing them to use the third circle of plots for their cities...

That sounds perfect Chalid. Lets add a trait and hook the increased culture expansion, bigger max culture expansion, and the ability to work the 3rd ring to it. Call it "Sprawling" or something like that. Can you go ahead and add the SDK effects Chalid?

Good point wilbowman. It'd be hard to build a Forbidden Palace.

Regarding limiting their city building capacities: We have to make sure their max number of cities jars with stuff like Runevaults and other advanced buildings that regquire a set number of inferior buildings to allow them to be built.

Good point. Hmm... Maybe I will change all of the building requirement buildings to require that at least 40% of the civs buildings have temples (or whatever) instead of a hard number.

A forbidden Palace shouldn't strictly speaking be necessary with the Kuriotates, but I'm more worried about other buildings. It would suit their new-found "ultra-urban" flavour badly if they were blocked off from some of the most monumental buildings.

EDIT: "Regquire". Now there's an interesting new word. And I can't even blame it on G and Q being close together!

That sounds perfect Chalid. Lets add a trait and hook the increased culture expansion, bigger max culture expansion, and the ability to work the 3rd ring to it. Call it "Sprawling" or something like that. Can you go ahead and add the SDK effects Chalid?

I'll come up with something when i did the MageAI. Im busily working on that at the moment.

Final candidate list:

1. The Kuriotates are going to be about less, better improved cities. Cardith will have the Sprawling trait which causes their borders to spread faster, spread to an additional depth and gives them the ability to work the 3rd plot ring (bigger fat cross).

2. They are limited to 3 real cities. After that all cities will be settlements.

3. Settlements spread culture, but dont contribute research, gold or production. They are unable to build any buildings or units. They dont have unhealthiness or unhappiness. Their growth is very limited.

4. Conquered cities become settlements.

5. If the Kuriotates have less than 3 "real" cities they can promote a settlement to a real city.

6. Increased traderoutes.

7. Centaurs- funtionaly mobile archers to help defend their kingdom. The defensive moves will be even more important if they have to cover a larger area with the non-unit producing "settlements" on it.

It all sounds good. I suspect Kuriotates might become one of my favourite civs with these changes, and they certainly seem to become very good candidates for cultural victories. They'll also be the civ to choose when trying for a One City Challenge:)

The Centaurs: A single UU (tier 2-3ish), or a series of UUs (as in an entirely separate Cavarchery unit upgrade tree)?

Otherwise, I love it! The Kuriotates will suit my playing style waaaaay too well:D

Since a conquered city becoming a settlement will make it rather useless, perhaps you should fix it so that it either doesn't loose all its culture when you grab it, or gets it back very fast?

The Centaurs: A single UU (tier 2-3ish), or a series of UUs (as in an entirely separate Cavarchery unit upgrade tree)?

All of their archers are planned to be replaced by centaurs.

Otherwise, I love it! The Kuriotates will suit my playing style waaaaay too well:D

Since a conquered city becoming a settlement will make it rather useless, perhaps you should fix it so that it either doesn't loose all its culture when you grab it, or gets it back very fast?

Cardith will have to be Creative for this strategy to work. We may want to consider what buildigns can be built in a settlement. I was thinking of allowing city walls and the obelisk.

I think market and elder council would be ok as well. Shall settlements grow or shall they sit there with just one pop point?

I think market and elder council would be ok as well. Shall settlements grow or shall they sit there with just one pop point?

I have them as -100% gold, -100% research, -50% culture, -75% food. So they will grow, but slowly. They have no unhealthiness, no unhappiness, no war weariness and no maintenance costs.

I may change the culture impact so they they grow culture normally.

Great ideas all.

What if cardith were Spiritual, Sprawlin, and philosophical?

Great ideas all.

What if cardith were Spiritual, Sprawlin, and philosophical?

Hes going to need creative to get the borders out on his cities and around his settlements.

Okay so creative instead of spiritual?

Instead of philosophical, perhaps? I suspect that the über-city flavour we're going for here would give plenty of GP points on its own.

Yeah you're right.

He is planned for Creative, Sprawling and Philosophical. His 3 cities may make a lot of GPP but he will only have 3 cities making them (where other civs will have many more). So I think he still needs it.

So how soon will my kuriotates empire be taking over the world?

The Sprawling makes good progress.. Actually all my cities are sprawling at the moment... the difficult task is to teach the other s not to do... And i am making progress there as well...

Im considering the following for the cultural borders: They simply always are one level bigger (1 culture would be needed for firt expansion probably) that they would be for non sprawling civs. This way we could also get rid of the creative trait (and it is relatively simple to implement).

And i figure they will get enought culture with their giagantic cities anyway. So they do not need creative for a cultural win....

Im considering the following for the cultural borders: They simply always are one level bigger (1 culture would be needed for firt expansion probably) that they would be for non sprawling civs. This way we could also get rid of the creative trait (and it is relatively simple to implement).

And i figure they will get enought culture with their giagantic cities anyway. So they do not need creative for a cultural win....

Sounds good, im all for simple.

Settlements are checked in. The Kuriotates can make as many settlers as they want, but every one past the first 3 will just be a settlement. The settlements limited build lists are working. If the Kuriotates capture a city it checks to see if they already have at least 3 "real" cities and if they do it makes the new city a settlement.

Everything seems to be working fine, they can spread culture and grow their empire apart from their main 3 cities. The settlements do slowly grow in growth when in good locations (some stayed at 1 pop but after I improved the tiles around them they started growing).

I have yet to create a way for a settlement to upgrade to a city (so the player can promote a city if one of his main 3 gets taken and he doesn't think he will be able to get it back soon). That will be easy enough to do.

I was also thinking about adding a "Trading Post" building that is unique to the Kuriotates and can be built in settlements that adds a Trade Route. This isnt much good for the settlement, which is -100% trade. But would give the main 3 cities plenty to trade with. They probably need an uber building that gives +3 trade routes or something like that.

I have a solution for your upgrading (in fact it is even needed and you can make the first cities settements as well)

I'll linke the isSprawling of the city to a buildingattribute i will shortly introduce (so not the civ decides if a city is sprawling but the buildings built there.) Obviosly the kuriotate palace would switch a city to be sprawling as well as a very cheap national wonder (two buildable). This way we can also allow scaling with map size.
ill export isSprawling of the building to Phython so you can check this for changing settlements.

Good ideas Chalid I was thinking something like that.

What if each of the 3 kuriotates cities could build "Economic Hub". that would give 3 trade routes and +25% trade route yeild.

Also could the kuriotates palace give +1 trade route?

Have any of you ever played Europa Universalis II? I ws think about the difference between a tradiing post and a settlement in the game.
What if there were two types of non-cities that the Kuriotates could build? One a settlement--Like a small city that grew slowly and gave a little production and such.
The other a trading post--No growth but normal trade routes and able to build an improvement to increase trade route yeild.

What do you think?

I have a solution for your upgrading (in fact it is even needed and you can make the first cities settements as well)

I'll linke the isSprawling of the city to a buildingattribute i will shortly introduce (so not the civ decides if a city is sprawling but the buildings built there.) Obviosly the kuriotate palace would switch a city to be sprawling as well as a very cheap national wonder (two buildable). This way we can also allow scaling with map size.
ill export isSprawling of the building to Phython so you can check this for changing settlements.

Its not a problem, I don't need a new attribute on the buildings and the upgrading is easy to do, I just havent added it yet. It can all be done in python without any SDK changes.

We just need the SDK to increase the culture borders for civs with the sprawling trait and to allow cities to work the 3rd plot ring (how is this going to work in the city screen?).

Its not a problem, I don't need a new attribute on the buildings and the upgrading is easy to do, I just havent added it yet. It can all be done in python without any SDK changes.


I need the building attribute :D to tell the city it, that has an third ring, as there are a lot of things that have to be done when a city switches from 2 rings to 3 rings and the other way round. With the building i can do all this dynamically and if its a national building it will work automatical when the city is conquered. Without the building you will have to add many many Python changes and might still miss something....


We just need the SDK to increase the culture borders for civs with the sprawling trait and to allow cities to work the 3rd plot ring (how is this going to work in the city screen?).

For these things ill add a new attribute to the leader trait (as it might be ckecked very often per turn and city its better than going via the TRAIT_NAME). The third ring is visible in standard cities already but i will change the city zoom distance for civs with sprawling as the three upper tiles can not be accessed. The culture thing will be done thereafter but query the leader trait - attribute as well (this time not so oftern but several ten times a turn for sure...).

Just an small report:
Its working already (the 3rd ring ~ 50-100 SDk changes...) just some things to fix and to make sure all effects are considered correctly (at the moment the white rings for working plots are not shown in the third ring and the feature health might not be calculated correctly, and maybe still some unfound issues on changing from two to three rings and back.)

Shall we allow the Kuriotates to build all buildings that require more than three of one kind of other buildings to built them with just 3 of them?
Its not difficult any more ...

Build them with 3 i say.

That sounds fair. I can't wait to try these guys out!

They are really difficult to play... You never know on which of those 36 plots to set your lone worker... :)....

I hope the worker isn't a national unit with a max of 1! :p

I hope the worker isn't a national unit with a max of 1! :p

I thought of the lone city population point you have at the beginning.. even with three peoples working on tiles the city looks really really empty. I"ll post some screenies this evening ;)

Ah, the choices of which tile to be worked. :) That must be comical.

What about a civic that frees up another city for them down the road? Or something that allows them to get to 4 eventually?

I don't think so, that would be too good. Unless you wanted to connect it to the armeggedon counter, and once it reaches a certain point the kuriotates can start expanding.

I just had anotehr idea for settlements. How about giving them 50% production, 50 %Commerce -40% maintaince
but letting them work only the 8 inner tiles (kind of inverse sprawling). Could be set up with my code without greater problems (i will only have to change few lines).
This would be a nice symmetry.

I like it.

I like it too.

I'm not sure I like it. I feel that the production focus should be entirely on the 3 main cities, colonies should really only be good for resources. The change might make the Kuriotates too powerful, as colonies do not have any maintenance costs either.

However, I could perhaps see reverse sprawling being used for some other civ, which would be able to spread far and wide thanks to no maintenance, but whose cities would be quite limited.

What about a mechanic for the Hippus? I think of them as a spreadout nomadic civ, and this would work nicely for them i think.

Actually i would give some (reduced maintaince to the inverse sprawling cities). But exactly that the settlements as they are now implemented have not production is what bugges me. Players will get along with that very well. But AI produces the defenders in the cities it wants to defend (it does produce additional defenders sometimes but that is very seldom the case) so the settlements of an Kuriotate AI civ will be mostly undefended if they cannot built defenders themselves. And with 8 Tiles and half production you will never get really much anyway (especially if you cannot build most of the buildings which is the case for settlements if i understood Kael correctly - i would allow only archery ranges/stabels - whatever centaurs need and units)
The best production you can get will be something like 6 Hammers (4 Grassland Farms + 4 Grassland Hill/Mines). That will not make you a big army...

And as i said i would like settlements to pay upkeep as otherwise its to easy to keep the enemy confirmed by your culture (place a settlement somewhere near him and put a great bard there and some defenders there. This would allow you to simple make an entire island unavailable for the AI)


Oh and here is a question for Kael. How do you decide which cities get your core cities? Can a player set it or will it be Random (The first three are obviosly the first ones you settle, but the ones tehreafter? - i mean after you loose one of them)
For the AI there is a function that evaluates the worth of a city. That one does not take the third ring into consideration yet. If you want to use it i'll have to adopt it accordingly.

Ok, I am convinced:) . I am too entangled in the ways of the player to understand the mysteries of AI, so here I bow to your wisdom:)
I thought you were going to allow buildings and make the settlements semi-cities for all intents and purposes, which I was against.

Its a difficult thing not to cripple the AI when you limit the player. We could of course alter the AI a bit, like forcing it to built abundand defensive units in its central Cities, but than it would not built Offensive forces anymore.

Unfortunateley there is one central problem with the Unit AI. I'd does not change it after it has built the unit. So if you built an Centaur and you need to defend your Cities you place him there. If you need to attack you can Move the Centaur to the front and attack with it. The AI does not do that. When an Centaur is built he will know exactly what to do. When he is an defender he will always only defend, never go to attack. Usually that works well, sometimes it does not.

Another Problem: when you kill off all offensive troops of an AI it will rebuild them very slow as it builds other UNITAI in teh same number. So It will end up with additional Attacker but with additional Defense and Pillaging units as well. But what did i want to say.. Hmm do not remember.. Just wanted to give an insight into some of the things i have to consider when "playing" the game form AIs perspective.

Its a difficult thing not to cripple the AI when you limit the player. We could of course alter the AI a bit, like forcing it to built abundand defensive units in its central Cities, but than it would not built Offensive forces anymore.

Unfortunateley there is one central problem with the Unit AI. I'd does not change it after it has built the unit. So if you built an Centaur and you need to defend your Cities you place him there. If you need to attack you can Move the Centaur to the front and attack with it. The AI does not do that. When an Centaur is built he will know exactly what to do. When he is an defender he will always only defend, never go to attack. Usually that works well, sometimes it does not.

Another Problem: when you kill off all offensive troops of an AI it will rebuild them very slow as it builds other UNITAI in teh same number. So It will end up with additional Attacker but with additional Defense and Pillaging units as well. But what did i want to say.. Hmm do not remember.. Just wanted to give an insight into some of the things i have to consider when "playing" the game form AIs perspective.

I like the fact that the settlements cant produce units at all. It really differentiates them from normal cities. Let me play a game against an AI kuriotate and see how it works.

If there are less than 3 main cities all of the settlements get an "Upgrade to City" option in their build list (functionally an Upgrade to City building that deletes the settlement building when it is created). I could block the AI so it can only do it in the most promosing settlement.

Year testing will be needed bevor taking that step. But ill change the code to allow downgrading cities nevertheless as its better to have the option and test the system with it, than to have to rewrite the system when we finally want to use it. ;).

Hmm if you do it by a building i'll come up with something that reports the most valuable citys (a python function for your cannot build - can you post yor code for the "Upgrade" - Building?). We need a City building anyway (to switch to the third ring so that does match :)) .. if we limit the upswitching building to 2 we would not even need the cannot build for the player :D .. the only thing with this solution is it might count to the max. 2 National Wonders per city. Do you know how that is handled with the palace? )

Year testing will be needed bevor taking that step. But ill change the code to allow downgrading cities nevertheless as its better to have the option and test the system with it, than to have to rewrite the system when we finally want to use it. ;).

Hmm if you do it by a building i'll come up with something that reports the most valuable citys (a python function for your cannot build - can you post yor code for the "Upgrade" - Building?). We need a City building anyway (to switch to the third ring so that does match :)) .. if we limit the upswitching building to 2 we would not even need the cannot build for the player :D .. the only thing with this solution is it might count to the max. 2 National Wonders per city. Do you know how that is handled with the palace? )

In onBuildingBuilt, where BUILDING_CITY is the "Upgrade to City" option.


if iBuildingType == gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_CITY'):
pCity.setHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString(' BUILDING_SETTLEMENT'), False)
pCity.setHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString(' BUILDING_CITY'), False)


In onCityBuilt:



if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KURIOTATES') :
if pPlayer.getNumCities() > 3:
city.setHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('B UILDING_SETTLEMENT'), True)


in onCityAcquired:


if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KURIOTATES') :
iSettlement = gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_SETTLEMENT')
iCount = 0
for i in range(pPlayer.getNumCities()):
pCity = pPlayer.getCity(i)
if pCity.isHasRealBuilding(iSettlement) == False:
iCount = iCount + 1
if iCount > 3:
city.setHasRealBuilding(iSettlement, True)


In cannotTrain:


if pCity.isHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('B UILDING_SETTLEMENT')):
return True


in cannotConstruct:


if pCity.isHasRealBuilding(iSettlement):
bValid = False
if (eBuilding == gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_OBELISK') or eBuilding == gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_WALLS')):
bValid = True
if eBuilding == gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_CITY'):
iCount = 0
for i in range(pPlayer.getNumCities()):
pCity = pPlayer.getCity(i)
if pCity.isHasRealBuilding(iSettlement) == False:
iCount = iCount + 1
if iCount < 3:
bValid = True
if bValid == False:
return True



I think the palace gets away with it because the buildclass is defined as bNoLimit. But thats just a guess, I havent played with it.


<BuildingClassInfo>
<Type>BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_PALACE</Description>
<iMaxGlobalInstances>-1</iMaxGlobalInstances>
<iMaxTeamInstances>-1</iMaxTeamInstances>
<iMaxPlayerInstances>1</iMaxPlayerInstances>
<iExtraPlayerInstances>1</iExtraPlayerInstances>
<bNoLimit>1</bNoLimit>
<DefaultBuilding>BUILDING_PALACE</DefaultBuilding>
<VictoryThresholds/>
</BuildingClassInfo>

bNoLimit does allow it as you suspected. Very good.

in cannotConstruct:
The number of Buildings of a class a civ posesses is (as the number of units of each class) already stored in

pPlayer.getBuildingClassCount(gc.getInfoTypeForStr ing("BUILDINGCLASS_SETTLEMENT"))

so no need to count yourself :D.


I think we can streamline there even more when you have my code :) which will probably be this evenening, dependend if i go to the Open Air Cinema today or saturday.

bNoLimit does allow it as you suspected. Very good.

in cannotConstruct:
The number of Buildings of a class a civ posesses is (as the number of units of each class) already stored in

pPlayer.getBuildingClassCount(gc.getInfoTypeForStr ing("BUILDINGCLASS_SETTLEMENT"))

so no need to count yourself :D.


I think we can streamline there even more when you have my code :) which will probably be this evenening, dependend if i go to the Open Air Cinema today or saturday.

Good call on the getbuildingclasscount, ill switch to it.

I'm just running some more tests with the mage ai and will pack the things afterwards for you. So you should get them in one or two hours.

Do you want the modified FfH editor with the new attributes? I figured you would have changed much of the contents but could use the modified scripts.

I'm just running some more tests with the mage ai and will pack the things afterwards for you. So you should get them in one or two hours.

Do you want the modified FfH editor with the new attributes? I figured you would have changed much of the contents but could use the modified scripts.

Whatever is easiest for you. If you tell me the attribute names I can look for them in your xml and get the syntax and such from that. I will have to manually merge with my editor copy because Ive made so many changes but thats not a big deal.

You should be able to query for

if pPlayer.isSprawling()

now instead of

if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KURIOTATES') :

You should be able to query for

if pPlayer.isSprawling()

now instead of

if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KURIOTATES') :

Cool, will do.

You should be able to query for

if pPlayer.isSprawling()

now instead of

if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KURIOTATES') :

Initially this didn't work because it wasn't defined in the CyPlayerInterface1.cpp file. I checked in the following change and it works now:


.def("AI_maxGoldTrade", &CyPlayer::AI_maxGoldTrade, "int (int)")
.def("AI_maxGoldPerTurnTrade", &CyPlayer::AI_maxGoldPerTurnTrade, "int (int)")

//FfH: Added by Kael 05/03/2006

.def("getAlignment", &CyPlayer::getAlignment, "int ()")

//FfH: End Add

//FfH: Added by Kael 06/15/2006

.def("isSprawling", &CyPlayer::isSprawling, "bool ()")

//FfH: End Add

;
}

Oh I missed to add it there. :)

That happens when one does not test it ^^.

Woodelf, would you move this thread to the public forum please.

Aye, aye O fearless one!

Thanks man. I wanted to release this just because I think its an interesting read and a good repersentation for how we come up with concepts (for those that are interested). Take a read of the thread and I think there are a few interesting things to note:

1. The idea evolves from a central concept, "Creation". We have a general idea of what the feel for the civ should be but we don't have mechanics.

2. When looking for mechanics we aren't afraid to throw them away. There are a lot of good ideas in this thread that we don't use. No one stays to attached to anything and we brainstorm through ideas until we hit the one that seems perfect to us.

3. Its a team process. Contributions come from everyone, including art and writing team members (who have always contributed much more than just in the art and writing areas).

In our final form, the one that will be in 0.13, the Kuriotates can have 3 real cities. These cities can work the 3rd plot ring, meaning they can be huge production machines. All of the Kuriotates other cities are "Settlements" and cant produce untis and only a very limited number of buildings (walls and the obelisk). Settlements don't require any maintenance or war weariness, and dont supply any research or gold so they allow the Kuriotates to expand their borders without building more "real cities".

Kuriotates are awesome for the single city challenge.

We don't have the centaurs in yet but they are still planned for them, we see a design need for the kuriotates to have some very mobile defenders to guard their expansize empires.

I hope you enjoy them, I will be interested to hear feedback after the release on Friday.

I think I found a new favorite civ. I already liked the Kuriotates' flavor, this pushes them over the top for me since I tend to be a slow builder type that concentrates on a few core cities.

I think I found a new favorite civ. I already liked the Kuriotates' flavor, this pushes them over the top for me since I tend to be a slow builder type that concentrates on a few core cities.

Good to hear, our goal is to make each of the civs play differently and I think we did a good job with the Kuriotates. They won't be for everyone, but some players will love them.

still seems you will have problems getting important resources too me even with smaller settlements. unless you spread the wealkth and stretch resources into alot of different lands so they are not all clumped together

still seems you will have problems getting important resources too me even with smaller settlements. unless you spread the wealkth and stretch resources into alot of different lands so they are not all clumped together

The Kuriotates can have as much landmass as any other empire, but they will only have 3 main cities. Their settlements, as far as cultural borders go, are just like normal cities. But thats about all their settlements do.

The Kuriotates will be an awesome civ for builders when it´s ready, good job. I think the 3rd ring and the settlements are great ideas, and will make the Kuriotates, if left alone, the most powerfull civ in the end-game.

The Centaurs are great ideas too, will they replace only the archer units or will also replace some mounted units ?

I must agree, this does look really cool and have the potential to easily become one of my fave civs, too. :)

Just one thought - the Kuriotates might have severe difficulties once they end up in wars. Consider this scenario:

Player with eight cities produces two military units in each city and then goes on to build buildings for the next couple of turns. One unit to attack, one to defense. Eight offensive, eight defensive units produced total.

In the same timespan, the Kuriotate player capped to three cities likewise produces two military units in each. One to defend, one to attack. Three offensive, three defensive units produced total. This means that the bigger player has almost three times as many units - if the Kuriotates want to ensure that the other won't decide to invade, they must spend several of the next turns to build (at least) more defensive units to compensate for the difference in cities. In the meanwhile the other player isn't even breaking a sweat and improves his infrastructure by constructing buildings in his cities, and after some turns will idly instruct his cities to again build a new batch of units without it affecting his empire much - at worst, just when the Kuriotates finish building troops to make up for the *last* batch of new units. Even if the situation wouldn't be this bad, over the turns even smaller differences accumulate. Imagine a Bannor player with eight cities *and* the Crusade civic in effect... the Kuriotates being forced to constantly build their military in order to just survive doesn't really fit their builder flavor. (Might not necessarily be a problem at lower difficulties where the AI is pretty toothless, but much moreso at higher ones - or against human opponents.) Plus it might force them to play as a defensive player, period - while I do prefer to mostly just be peaceful and not fight very much as a builder player, even I do want to wage at least the occasional war at times.

Of course, I haven't actually played any games with the New Kuriotates yet, so it could be that the increased production in their cities makes up for this. If not, two ways to help avoid this might be:

1) Scale the amount of cities allowed to the Kuriotates to the map size. Only being allowed three cities isn't any sort of a problem on a Duel map, but it will be much more so on a Huge one. The downsides are that it's probably tricky to code and might be confusing to casual players.
2) Boost the amount of cultural defense the Kuriotates get in their cities. Fits nicely with the flavor (huge, sprawling cities that are legendary for being almost impossible to capture by any foreign invader) as well as the fact that they get added culture bonuses otherwise, too. This forces the invader to either spend more turns besieging the cities (giving the Kuriotate defenders more time to build defensive units) or build more siege weapons than actual city attackers. The downside is that I'm not sure if this actually has any real effect - cultural defenses are something that I usually just either bomb away in a couple of turns or downright ignore entirely.

But other than that this does look like a very, very nice civ now. I'm loving it already, just a bit worried if it'll keep up with the others. :)

Ya I guess to solve the problem the most apropriate choice would be to raise their cultural defense, as it fits nicely whit the theme.

1) Scale the amount of cities allowed to the Kuriotates to the map size. Only being allowed three cities isn't any sort of a problem on a Duel map, but it will be much more so on a Huge one.

But other than that this does look like a very, very nice civ now. I'm loving it already, just a bit worried if it'll keep up with the others. :)

I like the idea of scaling the number of cities allowed to the Kuriotates to map size. I usually play the Kuriotates on a Huge map and was worried about being limited to 3 production cities.

I like the ideas to differentiate the Kuriotates. Would prefer that they get the 3rd ring bonus, UU archers, and boosted culture and city production with no limitation on the number of production cities though :) Yeah, yeah, so I am greedy. What of it?

Also, just some ideas for art/style for the Kuriotates: Would love to see some more dragon flavored are for the Kuriotates - espeicially for units. When I play them, I envision them as being very dragon-centric and often name my galleys things like "Dragonwing" and "Dragonclaw". I would love to see them have UU that fit that theme (as opposed to an oriental or asian theme). Helmets with dragon helms and dragon scale shields - that sort of thing. Also, I like the idea of there units having alot of gold coloring on their armor/shields to go along with Eurabatres.

I like the idea of scaling the number of cities allowed to the Kuriotates to map size. I usually play the Kuriotates on a Huge map and was worried about being limited to 3 production cities.

I like the ideas to differentiate the Kuriotates. Would prefer that they get the 3rd ring bonus, UU archers, and boosted culture and city production with no limitation on the number of production cities though :) Yeah, yeah, so I am greedy. What of it?

Also, just some ideas for art/style for the Kuriotates: Would love to see some more dragon flavored are for the Kuriotates - espeicially for units. When I play them, I envision them as being very dragon-centric and often name my galleys things like "Dragonwing" and "Dragonclaw". I would love to see them have UU that fit that theme (as opposed to an oriental or asian theme). Helmets with dragon helms and dragon scale shields - that sort of thing. Also, I like the idea of there units having alot of gold coloring on their armor/shields to go along with Eurabatres.

The amount of cities available to sprawling civs is configurable in the editor. But I will need some playtest data from you all before I up the city count on large maps. Mostly because the Kuriotates may be the best civ for huge maps because they can expand forever (since their settlements dont take maintenance). We will just have to see how they play out.

The amount of cities available to sprawling civs is configurable in the editor. But I will need some playtest data from you all before I up the city count on large maps. Mostly because the Kuriotates may be the best civ for huge maps because they can expand forever (since their settlements dont take maintenance). We will just have to see how they play out.

Hmm that is a good point. I feel better now that my Kuriotate empire will be able to stretch from sea to sea.

Also, someone earlier (Corlindale?) mentioned that Highgarden from Song of Ice and Fire as a model for Kuriotates. I think that perhaps the Targaryen's are definitely more of a match to the Kuriotates :-)

Trust me, they produce units very, very, quickly. By the time a rival civ has 8 cities the kurioates cities will be huge and able to produce large quantitites of units.

I think that perhaps the Targaryen's are definitely more of a match to the Kuriotates :-)

Well, only when it comes to affinity with dragons. The Targaryens are much more fierce and warlike than the Kuriotates, I think. And Cardith Lorda is most definately not similar in personality to the Mad King Aerys.

Yeah, not having to worry about building settlers allows your cities to grow faster thus producing more hammers. Plus, even with settlements and large cultural areas, you only have 3 main cities to defend. If someone scorches your improvements and settlements it's not a big deal compared to having to defend 10+ cities and losing one of them.

Side question - If a Kuriotate settlement has pop 2 or more and is captured does the conquering civ get a city or a settlement or is it autorazed?

Yeah, not having to worry about building settlers allows your cities to grow faster thus producing more hammers. Plus, even with settlements and large cultural areas, you only have 3 main cities to defend. If someone scorches your improvements and settlements it's not a big deal compared to having to defend 10+ cities and losing one of them.

Side question - If a Kuriotate settlement has pop 2 or more and is captured does the conquering civ get a city or a settlement or is it autorazed?

They get a city, though of cource there isnt much in it to start out with.

That saves me the trouble of losing one on purpose now. ;)

:rolleyes: Well, only when it comes to affinity with dragons. The Targaryens are much more fierce and warlike than the Kuriotates, I think. And Cardith Lorda is most definately not similar in personality to the Mad King Aerys.

Yeah, I would definitely not compare Cardith Lorda to Aerys but he might be compared to Daenarys though no? Charismatic, wise, resourceful leader, gathering together wandering followers... aside from some obvious anatomical differences of course:rolleyes:

Mostly because the Kuriotates may be the best civ for huge maps because they can expand forever (since their settlements dont take maintenance).

But don't except for culture don't really contribute anything, either. But you're the guys who have played this and not me, so I'll trust your judgment on the issue. The idea is beginning to grow on me more and more, the thought of having a large number of "vassal cities" that you can easily sacrifice in a war and that push the conflict away from the central cities producing all the units doing the fighting is very very cool. :)

Somehow I suspect that God-King might be one of the best civic picks for this civilization, I wonder why. ;)

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I would definitely not compare Cardith Lorda to Aerys but he might be compared to Daenarys though no? Charismatic, wise, resourceful leader, gathering together wandering followers... aside from some obvious anatomical differences of course:rolleyes:

And both being young.
Cardith doesn't have a slave army though.

I regularly play the Kuriotates. I like the leader and the current feel of them. I think making them an industrial, large city civ is the wrong direction. I picture them as being more of a wise, peaceful, diplomatic civ. The Kuriotates wanting to spread the wisdom of Cardith, peacefully if possible. But are willing to violently oppose evil.

I think the ideas for limiting growth would work better for the races with the Defensive trait.

Kuriotates are a human based civ and if there is one thing humans are famous for in fantasy worlds it is their capacity for growth.

An idea for theme could be anti-oppression. Make them have a strong aversion to slavery and civs adopting the OO.

Random other thought - i love satyrs. Put 'em in somewhere, eh?

- feydras

@feydras: Your perception of the Kuriotates is more fitting for the Elhoim.

The Kuriotates were always planned to rely on few but powerfull cities and on their highly improved land (which might come in form of better improvements available for the kuriotates or not dependend on how stron they come out in playtesting).
They wera laways planned to be a good target for pillagers too. ;)

I had an idea for a UU for the kuriotates that I wanted to suggest. The idea is a sort of "dragonsworn" guard for Cardith Lorda - basically very loyal followers of Cardith who are willing to lay down their lives for him. Essentially, the would be willing to sacrifice their lives to defend him. In practice, I was thinking a special promotion, only available to the "dragonswon" which allows them to sacrifice themselves to automatically destroy any unit in an attacking stack (even a much more powerful unit). The dragonsworn would then be destroyed as well. Obviously, there would need to be some sort of limit because you wouldn't want a dragon sworn taking out uber units like heroes or avatars. And its a promotion that would only get one use ... but you get the idea. Don't know if something like that has before, but thought that might be a neat idea for a UU for the Kuriotates.

Make Centaurs the elite military units (teir 3 and up)

Make the satires the recon units

Give them Dryads too (not Warhammer dryads, Lion the witch and the wardrobe Dryads) which can be spys, etc, and maybe uber workers in forests?

two quick things:
I think 'sprawling' should be renamed to 'Urban'. When i hear sprawling i imagine massive continent spaning empires, which isn't the case
Also i dont think he needs creative, they seem to be a "locomotive" civ, hard to get going in the early stages of the game, but difficult to stop later. with creative it would be too easy to get to that third ring of production. (if you're still planning on doing that, i hope so its an awesome idea) also with creative i think he would overshadow perpentach as cultural king

two quick things:
I think 'sprawling' should be renamed to 'Urban'. When i hear sprawling i imagine massive continent spaning empires, which isn't the case
Also i dont think he needs creative, they seem to be a "locomotive" civ, hard to get going in the early stages of the game, but difficult to stop later. with creative it would be too easy to get to that third ring of production. (if you're still planning on doing that, i hope so its an awesome idea) also with creative i think he would overshadow perpentach as cultural king

To be honest the trait name is referenced in to many places to be changed now unless we find something that is really really better. I didn't like urban because it sounds to modern, Im not in love with Sprawling but its okay.

And yes the 3rd ring is in and working fine. And Cardith is Expansive/Philosophical/Sprawling in 0.13, he isn't creative anymore for exactly the reasons you stated.

Um, unless i missed something, the Kuriotates are going to get screwed over on diciple and hero units. If they go with Cult of the Dragon, they get only Eurubates(sp?) and noone else in either cataglory, and he comes in Armmagedon-era and doesn't have Hero, or they go with a regular religion, have to deal with the CotD culture drain, loose part of thier shtick, and still have in my personal opinion the 2nd-worst civilization hero, since he comes in when the game is almost over. Only Abashi is worse, since thier identical except for iCombat being 22 of the Gold and 20 on the Black. What i'm proposing is that Eurubates should only be buildable if they go Cult, they should get a civ hero that appears earlier, like say some sort of civilized "monster", maybe the first centuar to ally with them, and Cult should get an eairlier-group hero, maybe a half-dragon.

CotD also needs disciple units, if the Kurioates are going to have an actual dragon as a hero from the cult it needs some sort of servitors.

Um, unless i missed something, the Kuriotates are going to get screwed over on diciple and hero units. If they go with Cult of the Dragon, they get only Eurubates(sp?) and noone else in either cataglory, and he comes in Armmagedon-era and doesn't have Hero, or they go with a regular religion, have to deal with the CotD culture drain, loose part of thier shtick, and still have in my personal opinion the 2nd-worst civilization hero, since he comes in when the game is almost over. Only Abashi is worse, since thier identical except for iCombat being 22 of the Gold and 20 on the Black. What i'm proposing is that Eurubates should only be buildable if they go Cult, they should get a civ hero that appears earlier, like say some sort of civilized "monster", maybe the first centuar to ally with them, and Cult should get an eairlier-group hero, maybe a half-dragon.

CotD also needs disciple units, if the Kurioates are going to have an actual dragon as a hero from the cult it needs some sort of servitors.

Its impossible to pick the Cult as a state religion. The Kuriotates and the Sheaim never suffer from the Cults negative effects regardless of what religion they belong to. They will have the religious heroes from whatever relgion they selected and Eurabatres, who is cool but as you said is a late game hero.

Ok, I must have missed that decision. Sorry. Incidentally, what can Eurabatres do besides just having an insane iCombat and Fear? Any special abilities or spellcasting? I've never actually seen any of the dragons do anything except for acheron getting leveled by Valin one time.

An idea just occured to me. With thier whole unity shtick and the dragon thing, wouldnt it be awesome if they had some sort of dragonrider instead of elephants for thier exotic cavalry unit?

Ok, I must have missed that decision. Sorry. Incidentally, what can Eurabatres do besides just having an insane iCombat and Fear? Any special abilities or spellcasting? I've never actually seen any of the dragons do anything except for acheron getting leveled by Valin one time.

An idea just occured to me. With thier whole unity shtick and the dragon thing, wouldnt it be awesome if they had some sort of dragonrider instead of elephants for thier exotic cavalry unit?

As Loki said once, "why would a mighty dragon let a puny human ride them?"

The dragons can all breath fire and roar. Breathing fire creates a meteor like fromt he meteor swarm spell, roar converts all units within a tile to their empire if they have the cult of the dragon promotion.

Dragons also have a pretty nasty first strike, the breath weapon you see them hit attacking units with isnt just for looks.

Um, i'm talking about a fairly weak dragon or drake, like one about half of Acheron's power, maybe a like a wyvern. And anyway, then why is Ashabi working for the Sheaim or Eurabrates working for the Kurioates instead of carving out thier own empires.

A tier 3 or 4 that is strong enough to get through the Fear has a decent chance vs the the playable ones and 90+ vs Acheron. A Tier 4 UU-quality knight could probably subdue a dragon weaker than acheron pretty safely. The explanation for the Kurioates could be Eurabrates getting some younger relatives to help his allies in exchange for serious money. Where do you think the mony and rescources would go, it would go to paying off the dragons.

Just like the spider's web isn't just for looks.

Perhaps Dragons could also get a bonus defending their cities? Just a small thing, but i mean isn't the whole idea of worshipping the dragon knowing that he'll interveen to save you, while other gods will just let you die?

As Loki said once, "why would a mighty dragon let a puny human ride them?"

The dragons can all breath fire and roar. Breathing fire creates a meteor like fromt he meteor swarm spell, roar converts all units within a tile to their empire if they have the cult of the dragon promotion.

Dragons also have a pretty nasty first strike, the breath weapon you see them hit attacking units with isnt just for looks.

Well, if you take a (mountable) creature and tame it while it's yound, you'll probably be able to train it to be mounted. You could make lesser dragon units, which grow mature after like 20~40 turns (with like 5 stages of growth), and allow certain unit classes to mount them at the first to second stage.
At different stages you could train them to summon fireballs and such...

Well, if you take a (mountable) creature and tame it while it's yound, you'll probably be able to train it to be mounted. You could make lesser dragon units, which grow mature after like 20~40 turns (with like 5 stages of growth), and allow certain unit classes to mount them at the first to second stage.
At different stages you could train them to summon fireballs and such...

Thats assuming that dragons are a commodity, cattle or another race in the world. The dragons of FfH were created by the gods in the Age of Dragons to wage their wars. They are are nearly as powerful as the avatars themselves and have existed through 3 ages of men.

I tend to believe that a lot of a dragons impact is ruined by making it common. I don't want to have dragon armies, each dragon should be an individual and a force to be reckoned with. I like the ideas of having mounted special beasts, but I probably wont use dragons for it.

Thats assuming that dragons are a commodity, cattle or another race in the world. The dragons of FfH were created by the gods in the Age of Dragons to wage their wars. They are are nearly as powerful as the avatars themselves and have existed through 3 ages of men.

I tend to believe that a lot of a dragons impact is ruined by making it common. I don't want to have dragon armies, each dragon should be an individual and a force to be reckoned with. I like the ideas of having mounted special beasts, but I probably wont use dragons for it.

So are you saying those dragons don't reproduce? :confused:

Anyway, I was thinking more of a national unit (1 max) for the cult...

The dragons in FfH are way smarter than the people, I suspect. And few. And that's what makes them extra cool.

Well there are only three dragons in the game. And I'm not sure is Acheran, Eurybates, or Abashi are female names.

Well... in the game ^^

i love the idea of the third ring, but how can they support a population of 36? that's the number of workable tiles

i've noticed that 2 of the religions are uber useful for non-religious reasons, runes for money, 3 per temple, and leaves, for getting happiness due to forests

with the happiness bonus from the leaves civic, you can use a leaves priest to bloom forests on anything, including an already built mine on a hill, on a town, on anything except flood plains, and you get a happiness for each one

it just seems inevitable that the kuriotates NEED leaves as a state religion now, to support that large a pop

am i missing something?

Not really related to the Kuriotates themselves, but is there any hope that more of the threads in the private FFH Team forum might get "declassified"? I'm asking since I found it fascinating to read through this thread and watch the final trait take shape, and would be curious to see the treatment you guys gave other aspects, too. (Not to mention that it could help in getting into the correct mindset for coming up with ideas that are actually good enough for the mod. ;))

They sound more interesting now, before this (and the dragon) they were just "the civ with the kid." My immediate thoughts--
If the Ai doesn't defend settlements well, you could give them a UU, tier 2 or 3 ish, that has about 4 strenth, no movement, and 2-5 hammer cost. Maybe they'd need triple maintence cost so that you can't build 30 the minute war is declared.
Thinking of the GoT slave army, perhaps these guys or the Elohim could get a UU by capturing slaves from slave-making civs, maybe a reverse fanatic process, a redeemed unit.
Umm... more thoughts on Saturday, I'm sure!

Not really related to the Kuriotates themselves, but is there any hope that more of the threads in the private FFH Team forum might get "declassified"? I'm asking since I found it fascinating to read through this thread and watch the final trait take shape, and would be curious to see the treatment you guys gave other aspects, too. (Not to mention that it could help in getting into the correct mindset for coming up with ideas that are actually good enough for the mod. ;))

Definitly, I only want to use the private forum to incubate and get the design work done, then push all of the information to you guys so the playtest feedback is as good as possible.

Mr Loki is supposed to push the Luchuirp thread public but he hasn't done it yet. ;)

They sound more interesting now, before this (and the dragon) they were just "the civ with the kid." My immediate thoughts--
If the Ai doesn't defend settlements well, you could give them a UU, tier 2 or 3 ish, that has about 4 strenth, no movement, and 2-5 hammer cost. Maybe they'd need triple maintence cost so that you can't build 30 the minute war is declared.
Thinking of the GoT slave army, perhaps these guys or the Elohim could get a UU by capturing slaves from slave-making civs, maybe a reverse fanatic process, a redeemed unit.
Umm... more thoughts on Saturday, I'm sure!

Thats a really interesting idea, a way to emancipate slaves. I will have to think about it.

i love the idea of the third ring, but how can they support a population of 36? that's the number of workable tiles

i've noticed that 2 of the religions are uber useful for non-religious reasons, runes for money, 3 per temple, and leaves, for getting happiness due to forests

with the happiness bonus from the leaves civic, you can use a leaves priest to bloom forests on anything, including an already built mine on a hill, on a town, on anything except flood plains, and you get a happiness for each one

it just seems inevitable that the kuriotates NEED leaves as a state religion now, to support that large a pop

am i missing something?

You have a VERY good point with this. In my recent games with them the only thign limiting my growth is happiness. We were considering giving a happiness bonus, but lost the idea at some point. I guess the idea is that they will get enough luxury resources from their settlements to have large cities.

Definitly, I only want to use the private forum to incubate and get the design work done, then push all of the information to you guys so the playtest feedback is as good as possible.

Mr Loki is supposed to push the Luchuirp thread public but he hasn't done it yet. ;)

HEY!!!

I did this a while ago, its lower down this forum. I'll go post in it to draw your attention.

HEY!!!

I did this a while ago, its lower down this forum. I'll go post in it to draw your attention.

Doh! He's right, my bad. :blush:

Make Centaurs the elite military units (teir 3 and up)

Make the satires the recon units

Give them Dryads too (not Warhammer dryads, Lion the witch and the wardrobe Dryads) which can be spys, etc, and maybe uber workers in forests?

1. The idea was that their entire archery line would be centaurs.
2. The problem with having so many different races (i suggested it too and Kael shot me down) is that "The artwork is wasted in any game without the Kuriotates.

My immediate thoughts--
If the Ai doesn't defend settlements well, you could give them a UU, tier 2 or 3 ish, that has about 4 strenth, no movement, and 2-5 hammer cost. Maybe they'd need triple maintence cost so that you can't build 30 the minute war is declared.
I dunno. I like the way the settlements are now, and there is always the danger that the ai will simply mass-produce these guys and kill themselves with maintenance. The thing about settlement is that they only need a few units to defend it. It doesn't really matter if your settlement is captured or destroyed, you have like 3 buildings in it at most.

Thinking of the GoT slave army, perhaps these guys or the Elohim could get a UU by capturing slaves from slave-making civs, maybe a reverse fanatic process, a redeemed unit.
Umm... more thoughts on Saturday, I'm sure!

I don't think that this is such a good mechanic for these guys. They are already really fun to play with. And its such a focused mechanic, which i dislike. What if instead this was an option available to all non-OO civs. I have that tech quote to support me on this. Everyone dislikes slavery. So perhaps any civ that captures an OO slave, or wins a battle against an OO slave unit (lunatic) gets a slave which can be put into a city of theirs for +1 happy (6 turns) and +1/2 pop. Or maybe only an option for good civs? I can't really see the calabim doing this.

Also, what happens when an OO civ captures an enemy worker? Is it turned into a slave or is it kept?

I dunno. I like the way the settlements are now, and there is always the danger that the ai will simply mass-produce these guys and kill themselves with maintenance. The thing about settlement is that they only need a few units to defend it. It doesn't really matter if your settlement is captured or destroyed, you have like 3 buildings in it at most.



I don't think that this is such a good mechanic for these guys. They are already really fun to play with. And its such a focused mechanic, which i dislike. What if instead this was an option available to all non-OO civs. I have that tech quote to support me on this. Everyone dislikes slavery. So perhaps any civ that captures an OO slave, or wins a battle against an OO slave unit (lunatic) gets a slave which can be put into a city of theirs for +1 happy (6 turns) and +1/2 pop. Or maybe only an option for good civs? I can't really see the calabim doing this.

Also, what happens when an OO civ captures an enemy worker? Is it turned into a slave or is it kept?

Everyone who captures a slave gets a worker. So they are better for the capturing civ then they are for the enslaving civ.

1. The idea was that their entire archery line would be centaurs.
2. The problem with having so many different races (i suggested it too and Kael shot me down) is that "The artwork is wasted in any game without the Kuriotates.

Well if thats the case, the art work for the ljosalfar, luhinurp, belseraphs and the plethera of others that are in this game must also be wasted if you dont play against them.

I just think thats a poor excuse;)

I just think thats a poor excuse;)

Not sure the art team does, though :lol:

:lol: yeh, sorry guys HEY WHO SAID YOU COULD REST!! GET BACK TO WORK ;)

I have an idea about the other races being a big part of the Kuriotates.

Basically there would be around seven other races, and they would all replace various parts of the Kuriotates unit tree.

Races:
Naga-Replace the dark recon units(assassin, shadow, saboteur)
Centaurs-Replace most of the cavalry units(horseman, chariot, war chariot, war elephant. For these use the stats, not the idea of a centaur on an elephant.)
Eaglefolk-Replace the rest of the cavalry units(horse archer, camel archer, knight)
Giant Wurms (the guys from Magic)-Replace the siege weapons. Warious large worms. These guys will have greater normal strength and less bombardment strength than normal siege weapons.
Satyrs-Replace some archer units(longbowman, flurry, marksman)

Merfolk-Replace the combat naval units. This includes water spellcasters. They do not replace naval transport.
Giant Turtles-You guessed it, they replace naval transport ships.(these two races will not work until we have a more complex naval system)

How does this work?
there would be multiple "centaur units". Normal units would not be upgradeable to them and they would not be upgradable to other races. For example, a scout could upgrade to a hunter but not a centaur horseman. Then that hunter could upgrade to a ranger but not a naga assassin.

What do you all think?Thats a lot of art resources tied up in one civ. I would rather spread out units like this instead of spending so much of the art teams time on them only to have it wasted in games without the kuriotates in it.

I would love the units, but we need to do more with less.

It wasn't that I didn't want the units, or I think civ specific units are a waste at all. I was referring to this this recommendation which, although it would be awesome, would take to much of the art teams time.

Instead I would rather give one unit like loki mentioned to the kuriotates, one of them to another civ, etc etc to spread them out. Maybe the naga are a sheaim unit, maybe the satyr are an elven unit or fellowship special unit, maybe the giant worm is a summon.

The ideas are awesome and I would love to see them in the mod, but not all grouped in one civ.

Actually I've been testing, and leaves is by no means the only choice for the Kuriotates.

1. Heriditary rule gives infinite happiness as well.
2. With all you settlements the order is nice for getting free crusaders.

2. With all you settlements the order is nice for getting free crusaders.

OOhhhh... sneaky.

I'm doing tolerably well with runes. I'm an economic and industrial powerhouse, but the unhappiness in my cities (which appear to be topping off at about 15) is rising, and I'm playing on a low level.

Yeh, hey look Kael, im sorry, i was in a funny mood then;) I do understand what you mean and why, i was just being facetious and sarcastic etc etc. ididnt mean it litterally;) (thats why i put the ';)' there).

But never mind, back to the kuriotates. will they be completed in the next patch, and when will that be if they are?

Yeh, hey look Kael, im sorry, i was in a funny mood then;) I do understand what you mean and why, i was just being facetious and sarcastic etc etc. ididnt mean it litterally;) (thats why i put the ';)' there).

But never mind, back to the kuriotates. will they be completed in the next patch, and when will that be if they are?

0.13 comes out tomorrow and all of this new city stuff is included. They don't have their centaurs yet, but outside of that they are as complete as any civ is (meaning we still come back from time to time and tweak stuff).

Checkout the changelog thread for everything that will be in tomorrows version. The big things are the Kuriotates, SeZereth's new Hippus units (tons of new art), a new tech tree and new heroes (Barnaxus, Govannon and Magnadine).

Not forgetting that in addition to Barnaxus (who now has an absolutely fascinating write-up:p), we've played around with the Luichurp's other golem units.

awsome! im going to DL now!

EDIT. oops wrong day, i forget theres such a big time differece in america...
ill DL tomorrow.

Playing a bit more with teh Kuriotates i think the Settlements schould provide a minimum production of 1 - because otherwise settlements that are not next to an hill can not get their obelisk built.

The second thing is they should bring in a little gold or Research.
This is because ore initial thesis that they do not cost anything is wrong. Each settlement is rather expensive as it costs:
1 gold for the obelisk
1 gold for a unit to defend it (it usually provides no free untis due to it small pouplation)
some gold in each of the central cities du to number of cities maintainance (ok that part usually is small)
but the biggest impact if from the civic cost as a major factor in the civic cost is the #of cities.

At turn ~400 i pay something like 7 Gold per settlement (+2 Gold for the unit) at prince

So i feel we should at least allow marketplace and elder council (and not cutting gold an reserach to 2)

This way a seetlement could at least provide 1 research, 2 gold and a bit culture. although one will nevertheless not be able to support more than ~ 6 to 8 settlements with the main cities.
My favoured approach would be something like limiting settlements to the inner eight tiles and reducing the mali to -25% food and -50% production, -50% commerce.

Instead of them having a fixed number of cities, how about that they can only make a certain percentage of their settlements into cities (but can always make their first three settlers cities to give them a decent start)?

I have a question on the cultural border gain of the kuriotates:

Have you changed it on purpose or is it some side effect of increasing the fat cross??

If you changed it on purpose i think you missed the 2 squares on each end (the increased fat cross is actually bigger than the border gain you get).

But nevertheless: I suggest to get the border gain back to normal because:

- Most of the times your 3 core cities will reach the 100 cultural gap pretty soon anyway (and can then work all tiles of the fat cross...)

- It will somewhat delay the spreading of the kuriotates that seems to be pretty fast.

- It just looks wierd the way it is now :)

There is extra code that controls the spreading of the cultural borders of the kuriotates. The reason are not the core cities but the settlements which are there to expand your borders over wide areas of land. With the Obelisk alone its very difficult to get the 1000 or even more culture. For this readon the settlements borders expand faster. But as the culture value is very low, normal cities can snap the tiles easily from kuriotate settlements.
This way you can close the gaps between settlements at reasonable speed.

That the first expansion leaves out the edges is on purpose :D so that you need that second expansion to work all tiles (and i have noticed usually bonus resources are exactly in those tiles as one wants to include as many of them as possible. So sending an simple disciple is not enought to work all tiles.)

The rather odd looking single tiles are du to the 1.5 times speed of the expansion, as the best approximation to the intermediate circle between the standard civ expansions looks exactly like that.

One thing that I've noticed with the Kuriotates is that happiness is a much more significant for them than it is with other civs.

Because they have so much more area to work, they don't actually end up using as many tiles in their 3 primary cities and I find that I'm typically lagging farther behind in both research/production because I only have 3 cities that are the same size as the 3 largest cities of my opponents.

A 25% happiness (possibly health also) bonus would make a difference towards combatting this disparity.

In the early game (on prince/monarch) this would let them grow 1-2 pop larger without happiness problems.
In the midgame (right about the time religeon starts and luxuries can get hooked up) 2-4 additional pop.
The late game is a mixed bag, but would generally be 2+ depending on trade and how much conquest had happened.

One thing that I've noticed with the Kuriotates is that happiness is a much more significant for them than it is with other civs.

Because they have so much more area to work, they don't actually end up using as many tiles in their 3 primary cities and I find that I'm typically lagging farther behind in both research/production because I only have 3 cities that are the same size as the 3 largest cities of my opponents.

A 25% happiness (possibly health also) bonus would make a difference towards combatting this disparity.

In the early game (on prince/monarch) this would let them grow 1-2 pop larger without happiness problems.
In the midgame (right about the time religeon starts and luxuries can get hooked up) 2-4 additional pop.
The late game is a mixed bag, but would generally be 2+ depending on trade and how much conquest had happened.

We are going to be changing a few things about the kuriotates to try to polish them up a bit in the next version. One of the things is that they will be getting 2 new buildings, one early and one in the midgame. The early one is the Tailor and it gives +1 happiness and +2 trade with each of the following resources: Sheep, Dyes and Silk. The 2nd is the Jeweler and it gives the same bonuses for Gold, Gems and Pearls.

That should give +6 more available happiness for the kuriotates. I would also recommend chekcing out the civic choices when playign the kuriotates. The ones layers are accustomed to using may need to be reconsidered for this civ.

2. The problem with having so many different races (i suggested it too and Kael shot me down) is that "The artwork is wasted in any game without the Kuriotates.

It doesn't have to be wasted. If you ever get around to establishing more unique barbarian nations, you can have centaur barbarians, or even elven rebels ("elven barbarian" doesn't sound right). These could represent "minor civs" ala GalCiv.

Another way to reuse the artwork is to revamp the mercenaries so that there are different types of mercenaries: centaur mercenaries, orc mercs, elven mercs, etc. Maybe even the way of hiring mercenaries can be redone, so that they slowly wander around as neutral caravans from city to city, nation to nation, and main civs could send a unit to them to either hire them or kill them (would require a hire/attack/ignore popup though). Would bring more flavor to the game. Okay I'm going off on a tangent here, so I'll leave it at that.

I'll say one thing: God King is insane for Kuriotates. It's appropriate I think, but ohmigod it makes Kwythellar into a total monster city when it gets big.

Here's a way to scale the number of cities: Guarantee the Kuriotates a certain of cities (obviously at least 1), then add a number of additional cities, the number scaling logarithmically the area controlled. Specifically, calculate the # plots the Kuriotates controls, take the square root of it, round down, divide it by x, and add y to it to get the number of cities, where x = growth factor and y = # guaranteed cities. For example, if x = 1/4 and y = 2, then here's a chart of the number cities allowed:
1 plot controlled -> 2 cities
16 plots controlled -> 3 cities
64 plots controlled -> 4 cities
144 plots controlled -> 5 cities
256 plots controlled -> 6 cities
...
If they ever lose enough area so that it can no longer sustain one city, the population of that city should decrement each turn until it reaches 1, at which point it turns into a settlement.

Here's a way to scale the number of cities: Guarantee the Kuriotates a certain of cities (obviously at least 1), then add a number of additional cities, the number scaling logarithmically the area controlled. Specifically, calculate the # plots the Kuriotates controls, take the square root of it, round down, divide it by x, and add y to it to get the number of cities, where x = growth factor and y = # guaranteed cities. For example, if x = 1/4 and y = 2, then here's a chart of the number cities allowed:
1 plot controlled -> 2 cities
16 plots controlled -> 3 cities
64 plots controlled -> 4 cities
144 plots controlled -> 5 cities
256 plots controlled -> 6 cities
...
If they ever lose enough area so that it can no longer sustain one city, the population of that city should decrement each turn until it reaches 1, at which point it turns into a settlement.

We are just going to base it on map size. Using a system like this would force the Kuriotates to expand to gain plots so they can build more cities, which we wouldn't want. On a duel map they can only have 2 cities, on large they can have 4, and on huge they can have 5. Then the player can decide how many settlements or landmass he wants to try to control with his empire.

You could tie their # of cities to population size instead of number of settlements.

You could tie their # of cities to population size instead of number of settlements.

Don't think that would work. Each new city you get allows you to grow your population even bigger, which can lead to another city. Since settlements are so small and don't effect overall population that much, the number of cities wouldn't scale with map size either.

Could you allow settlement to build dimensional gates? I find it very hard to get any late game offensive pressure without them. (Like the AI, i seem to be too stupid to use boats ;). ) They are very expensive anyway: As it would take to long to build them in settlements, the player would fast build them most of the time.

The Nexus solved this problem becauses it sneaks the gates past the building restiriction. By the way (already posted that in the ballance recommendation thread) i think the nexus is very undercosted.

Bright day
Argh! There was Kurioartes discussion while my comp was fried:(. World is so unjust.

We are just going to base it on map size. Using a system like this would force the Kuriotates to expand to gain plots so they can build more cities, which we wouldn't want. On a duel map they can only have 2 cities, on large they can have 4, and on huge they can have 5. Then the player can decide how many settlements or landmass he wants to try to control with his empire.

Is this something that is being adjusted in future release. I am trying out the Kuriotates today on a huge map and was only able to build 3 cities before going into settlements.

Another thing, would it be possible to be able to choose whether your settler builds a city or settlement in the future instead of city/city/city. I would have loved to have been able to spread out my cities more.

One last thing, while I understand the penalty of your cities being unable to build more than city walls/obelisk, when a World Wonder grants you a building in all of your cities would it have really been that game unbalancing to not gain what it gives you. I got the World Wonder that gives you a free mage guild in all of your cities and even though it probably would have taken me 100 turns to build that poor little Adept, I would have liked to have gotten the chance to do so.

Otherwise not doing to bad with them so far. In the year 220 I have a 150 point lead on my nearest competitor, lots of unhappiness problems, I am only playing warlord setting though. Keep up the great work.

Another thing, would it be possible to be able to choose whether your settler builds a city or settlement in the future instead of city/city/city. I would have loved to have been able to spread out my cities more.


I second this idea. I think it would allow for more strategic options when playing Kuriotates. Maybe only the starting settler builds a real city, and then all subsequent settlers build only settlements? Then one could decide later which to upgrade.

Or make a special settler to the Kuriotates... So they have 2 settlers, one that builds citys and other that builds settlements

Or make a special settler to the Kuriotates... So they have 2 settlers, one that builds citys and other that builds settlements

Good idea. I think I like that better than mine.

Or make a special settler to the Kuriotates... So they have 2 settlers, one that builds citys and other that builds settlements

I think that's confusing to newbies and prone to stupid mistakes (accidently building city settler instead of settlement settler). I'd prefer if it were another ability - "Build Settlement" right next to the "Build City" ability, with the Build City one disabled (with a mouseover hint explaining why it's grayed out) when the max # cities is reached.

The alternate "build only settlements and upgrade to city" approach works just as well for me. There could be a fake building called "Upgrade to City", which would be grayed out if there are already too many cities.

Would be nice if there was also a way to turn a city into a settlement as well to free up a city slot. It could work like this. Cities can build a fake building called "Downgrade to Settlement". Once clicked, the population/size of the city decreases by 1 per turn until it reaches pop 1 (or the maximum pop that the soon-to-be-settlement can have). Only then would the city become a settlement, freeing up a city slot. The purpose of the gradual population reduction is to penalize downgrading larger cities, so besides the investment gone into building up the city, there would be a time cost too.

I don't like the idea of 'downgrading' cities to settlements. I think it has no real logic, no flavour specific to FfH. IMO, the Kuriotates' cities form the initial core of their civilization, hubs of lore, trade, power; they are where they are, one just can't wipe away all the glory that a Kuriotate city represented and 'downgrade' it to a mere settlement. The player should take care to found his cities in apropriate spots.

When will scaling come into action?

When will scaling come into action?

Scaling ?

We are just going to base it on map size. Using a system like this would force the Kuriotates to expand to gain plots so they can build more cities, which we wouldn't want. On a duel map they can only have 2 cities, on large they can have 4, and on huge they can have 5. Then the player can decide how many settlements or landmass he wants to try to control with his empire.

I meant this, just started a Huge Terra and boy does Tripolis hurt my backside.

I don't like the idea of 'downgrading' cities to settlements. I think it has no real logic, no flavour specific to FfH. IMO, the Kuriotates' cities form the initial core of their civilization, hubs of lore, trade, power; they are where they are, one just can't wipe away all the glory that a Kuriotate city represented and 'downgrade' it to a mere settlement. The player should take care to found his cities in apropriate spots.

Well I guess it's already possible right now in a hacky way. Give a city to an enemy, upgrade chosen settlement to city, declare war on enemy, capture former city. Haven't done this before so I don't know if this is really possible.

OT: Is it possible to destroy your own buildings? If so, I can't find any to do that...

When will scaling come into action?

In Fall from Heaven version 0.14. Whenever that's released.

I don't like the idea of 'downgrading' cities to settlements. I think it has no real logic, no flavour specific to FfH. IMO, the Kuriotates' cities form the initial core of their civilization, hubs of lore, trade, power; they are where they are, one just can't wipe away all the glory that a Kuriotate city represented and 'downgrade' it to a mere settlement. The player should take care to found his cities in apropriate spots.


I agree with you on this - I think once a Kuriotate city is a city, it should remain that way. In terms of taking care to found cities in appropriate spots, I agree, but I would maintain that being able to decide initially between settlement and city is a necessary aspect of this. Founding only settlements and then upgrading to cities, having a settler with two different founding options, or having two different types of settlers are all viable ways to make that work, IMO.

Hi all,

Sorry, i don't read all that was wrote so my opinion and idea may have be yet debated.
Because Kuriotates only have 3 real cities that can produce, it's always difficult in case of big wars with more than 2 opponents to defend your country and avoid your improvements to be pillaged.
So, why not a specific unit freely built in village and town improvements ?
This "Militia" would have no movement point, a low to medium strength, could be upgradable to an "improved militia" with a specific tech or resource, must be linked to a specific city (if technically possible) but could no have promo unless cult of the Dragon if available (or only few ones).
This would gives the Kuriotates a stronger defence. When they lose a city, they lose around one third of their production capacity, it's awesome and sometimes nearly impossible to recover from this loss.

The Frog

Hi all,

Sorry, i don't read all that was wrote so my opinion and idea may have be yet debated.
Because Kuriotates only have 3 real cities that can produce, it's always difficult in case of big wars with more than 2 opponents to defend your country and avoid your improvements to be pillaged.
So, why not a specific unit freely built in village and town improvements ?
This "Militia" would have no movement point, a low to medium strength, could be upgradable to an "improved militia" with a specific tech or resource, must be linked to a specific city (if technically possible) but could no have promo unless cult of the Dragon if available (or only few ones).
This would gives the Kuriotates a stronger defence. When they lose a city, they lose around one third of their production capacity, it's awesome and sometimes nearly impossible to recover from this loss.

The Frog
I have had this loss and this kind of loss with many civs. And it is difficult to recover from. Four rounds and then you are really in trouble......yet i witnessed MadBrad do this very thing 2 days ago with the Kuriotetates and "I am still geeking out about it!" -Syndrome from the Incredibles. So it can be done.....likelyhood and ease being separate yet concontributing malfactors regardless.....and I'm not being redundant. If you have ever tried this senario gone bad you now exactly what Hian is talking about.

Maybe extra walls building, if not new mechanic, to help Kuriotates in defense?

Being so young himself you think their fearless leader would have an easier time getting younger upstart warriors thus less hammers for the warrior to be produced and the experience for said warrior would start earlier so but the problem with this idea is that it wouldn't be very practical because it could just as easily apply to any unit therefore........maybe their charismatic leader should have an off chance to win anyione over to their side.....even when not having the Dragon Cult thus the Sheaim would have double trouble if He gets the cult first considering they already have other benefits like more civs and getting a dragon easier.....ect........just thinking aloud..........oh, the walls idea Is nice and it fits with the mega expansion this civ has Guargantuan Walls with Arrow Towers.......yeah.....that would be cool......maybe half cost for castles.........or something special..........more time on less cities merits some special defense I would think.

Didn't post this in the 0.14 bugs thread because I'm not sure of the details.

IIRC, I read somewhere that on Duel maps the maximum number of cities is 2. So after that, whatever a settler founds is a settlement, right? Well, I currently have 3 cities, and I can tell that the third one is a city because it has lots of available buildings.

Bug? Or is it just my imagination playing tricks on me with that "2 cities/duel" thing?

Didn't post this in the 0.14 bugs thread because I'm not sure of the details.

IIRC, I read somewhere that on Duel maps the maximum number of cities is 2. So after that, whatever a settler founds is a settlement, right? Well, I currently have 3 cities, and I can tell that the third one is a city because it has lots of available buildings.

Bug? Or is it just my imagination playing tricks on me with that "2 cities/duel" thing?

Your right, its because I checked on the worldsize of "Dual" instead of "Duel". I will fix it.

Ok. Another question: is the Catacomb Libralus (and similar wonders) supposed to affect settlements?

Ok. Another question: is the Catacomb Libralus (and similar wonders) supposed to affect settlements?

Yeah. Ideally they wouldn't and we could code a change so they don't, but it doesnt seem worth a code change.

Yet another question :) What's up with the Kuriotates and the Cult of the Dragon? Why them and the Sheaim only?

The AI as Cardith doesn't seem to know how to upgrade a settlement, even if it's all they got. It's been about 5 turns since they've just had the one settlement.

Yet another question :) What's up with the Kuriotates and the Cult of the Dragon? Why them and the Sheaim only?

The fact that they both have Dragons heroes is why they can found the Cult. The Sheaim have Abashi because they did in the D&D campaign. I dont know that there is a better reason than that.

In the game Tebryn was a runecaster. Bascially a normal D&D magicuser who was only limited to touch spells, but those spells had a greater effect (including circles he could draw that would summon creatures). His version of the lichdom spell didnt use a phalactery to store his soul, but a rune. To be able to kill him the rune had to be destroyed. Tebryn inscribed the rune on Abashi's forehead (much to the dissapoint of the party).

As for the Kuriotates, check out Cardiths pedia entry for a clue as to their association with Erabatres.

As for the Kuriotates, check out Cardiths pedia entry for a clue as to their association with Erabatres.

I did, thanks. It's intriguing... now even his picture makes more sense!

The fact that they both have Dragons heroes is why they can found the Cult. The Sheaim have Abashi because they did in the D&D campaign. I dont know that there is a better reason than that.

In the game Tebryn was a runecaster. Bascially a normal D&D magicuser who was only limited to touch spells, but those spells had a greater effect (including circles he could draw that would summon creatures). His version of the lichdom spell didnt use a phalactery to store his soul, but a rune. To be able to kill him the rune had to be destroyed. Tebryn inscribed the rune on Abashi's forehead (much to the dissapoint of the party).

As for the Kuriotates, check out Cardiths pedia entry for a clue as to their association with Erabatres.

Ah, a man after my own heart. There is nothing quite like the sound (or lack there of) of players hearts droping into their stomachs when they reach the full effect of a paradigm shift. "What do you mean its on the dragons forehead?"
Wait for it.........wait for it..........
"Ah crap..."
I love the smell of player anguish in the morning. Well Done Kael.
-QES

P.S. It is also important to reward players....else the fun of suffering is drained by apathy and fatalism. "What the GM giveth, the GM will taketh away and embarasses you in-process."

In this thread there have been a number of suggestions about the nature of the creation sphere, and its manifestation in the Kuriotates. Some have suggested that they should get a strong infrastructure, and that got me thinking about the Kuriotates as an FFH analogue of the vanilla India; a peaceful civ with access to a 'super worker'. Then it struck me: Beating ones swords into plowshares sounds exactly like something the Kuriotates would be prone to do. They could sacrifice units to produce workers, and depending on the level of the sacrificed unit, these new workers could have some special abilities.

In this thread there have been a number of suggestions about the nature of the creation sphere, and its manifestation in the Kuriotates. Some have suggested that they should get a strong infrastructure, and that got me thinking about the Kuriotates as an FFH analogue of the vanilla India; a peaceful civ with access to a 'super worker'. Then it struck me: Beating ones swords into plowshares sounds exactly like something the Kuriotates would be prone to do. They could sacrifice units to produce workers, and depending on the level of the sacrificed unit, these new workers could have some special abilities.
Wow....that is a neat idea!.....I'm geeking out about it....neat. I mean that literally too. Neat because the civ that does that rarely has anyone just sitting around and it would be cool if they get attacked as a worker after the change they turned back into the previous unit with a temperary penalty until a certain amount of gold is paid in a city to rearm them and maybe they wouldn't be able to gain XP until they did so........but your idea is great on it's own

What would the advanced workers do special? Extra movement, or faster working, or retaining spellcasting perhaps. If you give them super improvements it makes them too powerful, though, since the Kuri's can work so many tiles. Maybe if it was a Creation 3 spell, maybe.

What would the advanced workers do special? Extra movement, or faster working, or retaining spellcasting perhaps. If you give them super improvements it makes them too powerful, though, since the Kuri's can work so many tiles. Maybe if it was a Creation 3 spell, maybe.

Wouldnt it be simpler to have Most of the military units also have worker functions? They could be more expensive, but then most of the units they build would then be running around constructing stuff, only to go to war when bad guys show up. - I do worry about how then the AI would use them :(. Maybe switching them back and forth would be better.

-Qes

I like the concept on the kuriotates, but the static limiting of cities seems a bit harsh. what if city hubs were set on a kind of scale to settlements, like the way cathedral are treated in vanilla, and settlement did indeed have some upkeep cost, maybe only for distance from palace. city hubs would also have to be built, not automatic, so one would require say 7 settlement for an option to built a hub, and hubs could not be hurried. this way only a well suited settlement would even have a possibility of becoming a city. so as the empire expanded through a sprawl of settlements (wich should at least be able to build warriors, or perhaps a low level combat UU militia type unit) there would be a settlement or two working twards becoming a city. if everything was balanced right this could require good planning and forethought by the player, as you would want a posible city settlement to be farther away from others to fully benefit from the 3rd ring, and you would have to hold on to enough settlements to keep building the city hub.

this way the empire can truely expand (as long as there's enough funds to pay the rent) and every hundred or so years (assuming constant growth and expansion in some fashion or another) a new city would 'grow up' and start contributing to further expansion of the empire.

maybe cult of the drag can get a few units or something, too, like a whelp caller and/or wyrmm rider. somethin.

I like the concept on the kuriotates, but the static limiting of cities seems a bit harsh. what if city hubs were set on a kind of scale to settlements, like the way cathedral are treated in vanilla, and settlement did indeed have some upkeep cost, maybe only for distance from palace. city hubs would also have to be built, not automatic, so one would require say 7 settlement for an option to built a hub, and hubs could not be hurried. this way only a well suited settlement would even have a possibility of becoming a city. so as the empire expanded through a sprawl of settlements (wich should at least be able to build warriors, or perhaps a low level combat UU militia type unit) there would be a settlement or two working twards becoming a city. if everything was balanced right this could require good planning and forethought by the player, as you would want a posible city settlement to be farther away from others to fully benefit from the 3rd ring, and you would have to hold on to enough settlements to keep building the city hub.

this way the empire can truely expand (as long as there's enough funds to pay the rent) and every hundred or so years (assuming constant growth and expansion in some fashion or another) a new city would 'grow up' and start contributing to further expansion of the empire.

maybe cult of the drag can get a few units or something, too, like a whelp caller and/or wyrmm rider. somethin.

Or a dragon rider called the "Whipper/Snapper"
Sorry, couldnt help it.
-Qes

Ah, a man after my own heart. There is nothing quite like the sound (or lack there of) of players hearts droping into their stomachs when they reach the full effect of a paradigm shift. "What do you mean its on the dragons forehead?"
Wait for it.........wait for it..........
"Ah crap..."
I love the smell of player anguish in the morning. Well Done Kael.
-QES


Please explain that

Also is there any plan to allow settlements to be built before cities?

Please explain that

Really? Well Ok.

I have been a "GM" in my past, as clearly Kael has been. Kael was describing a moment in his experience in which he posed a problem to his players. His players were on a quest to destroy a Lich. These are very hard to destroy, and Kael was cleaver, in that the Lich's Phylactery(sp?) or (soul-wallet) wasnt a normal vessel. It was a Rune. Runes are magical symbols inscribed on surfaces, the writing itself is the magic, and is useful for multiple purposes. In this case the rune was a phylactory. Now, up until this point, the players learning this information are confident. They feel they can find the phylactery and destroy it, thereby preventing the lich from coming back from the dead when they destroy him. This would complete their quest, and make them all very happy. It is at this point they discover that the rune is inscribed upon a very large and mean forehead of a very large and mean dragon. In gaming terms, this is an "ah crap" moment. Becuase its going to be hard (for some enough to cry aloud and shamelessly). Players can lose their characters, characters can DIE. And there is a very real and tender relationship (for most) between a player and his character, therefore, while they are usually high adventuers, they dont like unncessesary risk to their characters. WHen you tell your players that they are going to have to destroy the forehead of a dragon....and they know dragons are mean and powerful, they are going to be worried.

This is what i meant by the paradigm shift. A paradigm shift is when everything you assumed about a situation simultaniously turns out to be quite the opposite, and is usually a terrifying experience. LIke if your at a dance party, haveing a great time with some friends you just met. They're bying you drinks, a cute girl or guy is flirting with you, and everyone just seems great. Then the ceeling sprinklers turn on, and you see their pooring out blood, and suddenly realize EVERYONE except you at the party is a vampire. That is a paradigm shift.

The "sinking" feeling this creates is often much-sought after by more ruthless, (or 'playful' in my book) and sadistic GM's. I personally love it, which is why i sent that post. This is not to say im going to kill my players for fun, on the contrary, they usually thwart whatever evil plans i throw in their direction, and their deaths are often not because i will them. But that moment of "ah crap..." with the sinking feeling i know their feeling, is what we call a "cinimatic" moment. And i love those.

My players joke that im cruel...but ive never had any of them say I wasnt fun.
-Qes

Thank you, as for my other question, I'm finding it really hard to play when I can't build settlements before cities, is there any plan give players a way of building settlements first?

Thank you, as for my other question, I'm finding it really hard to play when I can't build settlements before cities, is there any plan give players a way of building settlements first?

No plans really. I suppose we could give Kuriotate settlers a button for "build a settlement". Let me think about it.

No plans really. I suppose we could give Kuriotate settlers a button for "build a settlement". Let me think about it.

I would second this option. Also, In playing the Kuriotates I had my first 2 cities doing well but had a barbarian city starting to annoy me so i went out and took it over thinking i could make it a settlement as otherwise the cities 3 rings would overlap with the 3 rings of my second city. So could there be a way to choose if a onquered city could be settlement or city, also? In hindsight i should have razed that barbarian city but that is something i rarely do unless playing as a civ that requires me to do so.

No plans really. I suppose we could give Kuriotate settlers a button for "build a settlement". Let me think about it.

I really think this MUST happen, one of the most fustrating things is when only a few squares out of my terorotry is some really usefull resource, stone, marble, copper of something. but I can't get it without waiting for sevral thousand culture points or wasting one of my limited number of cities.

I'm yet to play a Kuriotate game without finding a place where I really should have a settlemnt in this spot but its a terrible place to build a city. And I havn't built all my cities yet.

And as nimbus said, invading cities should provide a settlement option.

No plans really. I suppose we could give Kuriotate settlers a button for "build a settlement". Let me think about it.

I think this is a good idea. Its slightly annoying to be forced to set up your massive 3 cities first, then build settlements, especially if you prefer slower expansion. IF there was an "option for each" in each settler, one that disappeared once you had 3 cities (or whatever the number is on the map), then you could expand in a very consistant fashion. Having all 3 cities next to each ohter, while effecient, may not be the best over the entirety of the game, when you wish you had some sort of production on the "south side" of the continant, or the like.
-Qes

K, I added it to the want list.

I agree they must be able to pick whether a city or not, I'd thought that after the first city(which it must be) all are settlements, then the next turn a city hub (cost 1 hammer or none) if you haven't used them all already. I think the extra turn, is fair trade for the flexibility.

Fader

Here's an idea that I'd like to throw out (I'm only a chieftan here and I play on warlord). I've found Kurio tough to play -- I like warring and you really cannot as Kurio.

When I thought about a scenario, I made Kurio the only city to survive the age of ice. It had been reduced from metropolis to a pop of 1 but it was still there. Why not balance many disadvantages with a fast city start -- give them a warrior, a pop 2 city, and possibly even a worker but restrict settlement sprawl considerably? Then, yes, given them better trade routes.

Note also that I'm in 2.023 as I don't have BTS.

Gah, thread necromancy!

In the most recent version of BTS, Kuriotates get +3 happy and Enclaves, an added growth level after Towns on the cottage line that grant +1 food/commerce each. This helps quite a bit.

Gah, thread necromancy!


Heh Funny :lol:

Since the thread got brought back from the dead, how does the idea sound of settlements being cities that can only work the first ring of tiles around it, you get 3 mega cities, and abunch of cities that can work 8 tiles.

Kind of random but concerning to the Kurios: the enclaves could use a different look. I know, first version and all that. What I think would work best is using the current model (although less golden of a color) and having a few village type buildings surrounding it. Agreement?

Yes, I think the gold colour looks like too much of a difference from it's previous model (my brain doesn't comprehend intuitively how this could happen).

I too dislike the Enclave graphics.

i agree with the above posters: the enclave right now looks more like a shrine than a large town. Maibe just copy the town graphics, but with different colours?

On a side note, i find it rather odd that, for a civ that prefers using centaurs instead of people riding horses, they've still got 2 mounted units in the form of the ratha's and the shadow riders (the CoE knight, not sure what it's called). Maybe give them a centaur UU version of these units, the "shining centaur" and the "hidden centaur" (or something similar)? They could just use a recolored version of the chariot UU and the knight UU, but won't require horses just like the rest of their mounted line

The enclaves do look a little weird at present. If we could scatter some of the little houses from the early cottage sprites around the one large one, that would be a little better. Making the whole thing a tad less bright would be okay with me too.

Since the thread got brought back from the dead, how does the idea sound of settlements being cities that can only work the first ring of tiles around it, you get 3 mega cities, and abunch of cities that can work 8 tiles.

With full maintenance costs?


On a side note, i find it rather odd that, for a civ that prefers using centaurs instead of people riding horses, they've still got 2 mounted units in the form of the ratha's and the shadow riders (the CoE knight, not sure what it's called). Maybe give them a centaur UU version of these units, the "shining centaur" and the "hidden centaur" (or something similar)? They could just use a recolored version of the chariot UU and the knight UU, but won't require horses just like the rest of their mounted line


Good idea, especially since Rathas upgrade to Centaur Guards at Warhorses.

Cardith's starting adaptive trait should be something other than Philosophical. It's relatively useless in the early game, and there are others that are more fitting; I would suggest Charismatic or Creative.

eighter creative or financial would work perfectly... i for one don't pick philo on my 2nd pick, since there just aren't enough specialists to make it worthwhile. The new enclave structure would fit financial perfectly though... get additional commerce untill all your cottages are matured and you've got enough food to run a semi SE next to your CE already in place.

Philo is a perfect first trait for Cardith; racing for Mysticism gives you a lightning-fast first Great Sage (academies helps Cardith disproportionately well) long before turn 96, you get a good headstart on the second, and you get more benefit than most from God King too. After turn 96, when you've started to get some cottages up and starting to mature, is the perfect time to switch to financial and reap the benefits of supercottages+academy.

I'm playing this civ again with the new version, and while I think there's a lot of flavor here, I also wonder how one goes about making this civ more appealing while remaining true to the concept.

One idea I had was allowing Kuriotates the ability to build elven or dwarven units (maybe even orcish units?), maybe at a greater expense in either hammers or money at the moment of building. It makes sense in terms of lore that Kuriotates would have all races in their city, so they would at least be available to be used as workers or scouts or other units. Plus, this would make the Kurios very flexible in game play. You could have dwarven adepts who can cast repair. If you move to neutral, you could have dwarven druids. You could have elf scouts if you are starting in forest, or dwarven scouts if you are starting in mountain. I think many of these options are rarely available to all civs via mecenary events from Guild of the Nine, but I think Kuriotates having this ability at all times makes sense. (I think an elven worker can still only build improvements without removing a forest if you are an elven civ now, so maybe that advantage wouldn't work for Kuriotates.)

If choice sounds too powerful, would random racial traits make more sense? So you could get an elven worker, but it's not guaranteed.

I was just about to suggest the random racial traits in responce :D, I like the idea.

With full maintenance costs?

If the settlement could work the surrounding 8 tiles, with full maintenace costs, it would help the AI, and help prevent being landlocked.

Can disable everything but military related buildings and courthouses in them, to prevent them being used as 8 farm+dozen specialist science centers.

What do you think?

If the settlement could work the surrounding 8 tiles, with full maintenace costs, it would help the AI, and help prevent being landlocked.

Can disable everything but military related buildings and courthouses in them, to prevent them being used as 8 farm+dozen specialist science centers.

What do you think?

Well, one thing. If you do that, the player could shift the military production away from the cities and to the settlements, allowing the player to focus on wonders and building improvements in the cities. Now whether this is a good thing (because I have heard people state that the fact that the Kuriotates have to focus on all three is bad) or not, it will change the mechanics of how to play them rather than a straight up buff.

How about letting their suppercities work on both a unit and a wond/building at the same time, both using full production. This will effectivly give them a huge production bonus (+100%) but with the restriction that you can only use half of your hammers to wonders/buildings and half to millitery power.

Supercities, oh yeay.

Settlements should at the least be able to build boats. Or maybe you could build boats in the big cities and then ship them to settlements (maybe only if connected via river).

Settlements should at the least be able to build boats. Or maybe you could build boats in the big cities and then ship them to settlements (maybe only if connected via river).

So freaking quoted for truth, if you mean fish boats.
It's so annoying that you can't get some coast ressources, just because there is no supercity connected to that certain sea, especially since you really need that health bonus for big cities.
Regarding boats in general I'm not sure though, because Imho they have to place a Supercity at coast, if they want to have war on the sea.
Just a shame that the 3rd ring is almost wasted on coast cities, because of so many 2 Food 1 Gold tiles (with lighthouse).
Maybe one coastal building of them should be able to add trade routes or increase their income a lot to make supercities at coast more attractive.

In my opinion fishing boats should be scrapped and you should get naval resources as soon as they are within your borders. I think it would make seas feel different from land, not just 'another terrain, but blue'.

I too dislike coastal supercities, which are almost always necessary for maps with continents. I think the Kuriorates should be able to build Griffons instead of War Elephants. These friffons would be expensive, but could carry 3 units. A large amount of these could allow intercontinental travel without a weak coastal city.

by build you mean regular buildable (since war elephants can only be 'build' by upgrading captured elephants now) or upgradeable from a wild griffon?
since i havent seen a wild griffon in any of my games yet (they should spawn on plain and grassland iirc), buildable would be better, i think....

another point would be, if they should be able to carry all sorts of units (thinking about the mounted line and skeletons, etc as problematic)

nontheless, i like the idea :)

Thread necromancy again.

I had originally visualized the Kurio as the sole surviving human city. But now, having read the Kurio recon line thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=265423), I'm beginning to see them as the remnants of the ultimate cosmopolitan civ -- like the inscription (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#Inscription) on the Statue of Libery -- give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free.

So, the last of the centaurs, and maybe some other races. Refugees, bringing with them knowledge lost or scorned elsewhere -- such as the Lamia.

I too dislike coastal supercities, which are almost always necessary for maps with continents. I think the Kuriorates should be able to build Griffons instead of War Elephants. These friffons would be expensive, but could carry 3 units. A large amount of these could allow intercontinental travel without a weak coastal city.

This sounds like a really good idea, but I think it would make more sense if it was a Roc, as they are known for being absolutely huge. This would be a very good way for Kuriotates to expand to other continents without having to cripple one of their super cities by being next to the coast.