I am trying to write a short article about diplomatic relations between Germany and russia in the 1930's. I know that theymade a pact about Pland in 1939, but apart from that there is a sinister lack of knowledge. I was hoping someone here might know more than me about this or can point me to a website, because I don't seem to be able to find anything.

Well, the Russian's were no fan of the Nazi's, thats for damn sure, and the Russians also sent troops to fight in Spain during the Civil War there. As I recall, Russia and Germany weren't all that friendly until after Munich, when Stalin found out Poland wasn't interested in a mutual defence kind of arrangement.

Thanks for the info but I am really looking for an article or a website with some in depth info.
BTW I have just realised that there is a history section on this forum, can a mod please move this?

Until Hitler came to power (In January 1933), Germany (Then Weimar Republic) and the USSR were cooperating in military fields, mostly developing both countries Air forces in cooperation, when Hitler came to power all cooperation between the two ceaced.

That's what I can think of right away, I'll post if I remember something new. Don't have any links to articles nor websites, sorry.

Argh, post eaten.

Shortlist:

Ulam, Expansion and Coexistance
Pons, Stalin and the Inevitable War
Roberts, The Soviet Union and the Origins of the Second World War
Anything by Gorodetsky
Haslam, The Soviet Union and the Struggle for Collective Security
Molotov's memoirs
Stalin's letters to Dimitrov and Molotov (separate volumes in Yale primary sources series)

That should get you started. Basically, there are two views:
1. Stalin struggled valiantly for peace (yeah right) but ultimately decided that France and Britain were not interested in an alliance, so moved towards Germany instead to guarantee Soviet security. Evidence: Ample Soviet feelers towards France and Britain; the infamous low-level British delegation sent by slow boat to the 1939 military talks with the USSR. Refutation: Stalin's efforts to obtain territory in Eastern Europe both in 1939 and after (e.g. Bukovina, which can hardly be seen as in the direct path from Germany in September 1939 - check a map and you'll see what I mean); low-level talks with Germany from 1937.
2. Stalin wanted an alliance with Germany all along. Evidence: Rappallo pact, Soviet abandonment of German Communist Party after Nazi takeover, Soviet feelers towards Germany until 1934 and resumed in 1937, Soviet insistence prior to 1933 that the Nazis and the Social Democrats represented the same bourgeois mentality. Refutation: evidence that 1937 (Kalefakis) negotiations were not treated seriously by either leadership.

There are also various other fringe theories (Stalin was preparing for a war with Germany in 1941 and got beaten to the draw, Stalin genuinely liked and trusted Hitler, etc).

This belongs in the History forum.

the infamous low-level British delegation sent by slow boat

If, by any chance, you want to know the name of the head of the delegation; he as called

Admiral Reginald Ranfurly Pluckett-Ernle-Erle-drax

I kid you not. On a more serious note, thanks for the general info.

I realize this won't help you much, but I think that both Hitler and Stalin were not naive about the deal they were making. Maybe Stalin is to blame for not thinking the Nazis would turn on him as quickly as they could.

But, the real shocker about the pact they made in 1939 was how it chilled Western Europe. I think in France and England they were largely putting up w/ Hitler thinking that due to his racial policies/attitudes as well as the ideological differences between fascism/communism, that it was obvious to them the next big war would be between Hitler and Stalin. So, as you can imagine when the made the pact that carved up Poland, it was pretty shocking.

If you want, I can post or sent some information in Russian

If you want, I can post or sent some information in Russian

please post :D

Not here ;). Please give your email in PM

Moved to History.

If, by any chance, you want to know the name of the head of the delegation; he as called

Admiral Reginald Ranfurly Pluckett-Ernle-Erle-drax

I kid you not. On a more serious note, thanks for the general info. Pluckett-Ernle-Erle-Drax was a cousin of the fantasy writer Edward John Moreton Drax Plunkett, 18th Baron Dunsany.

This name... However Rapallo was in 1922 between the Soviets and Germany. It was a kind of peace treaty and alliance made. Indeed until about 1934/ 35 German troops were trained and equipped in Russia with the stuff forbidden by the Entente. But Rapallo was earlier as it is said here.

Adler

I think when the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed, both Russia and Germany had no illusions that war is inevitable at some point. Hitler had ideas about "Lebensraum" all along, and so the Soviet Union was always on his "hit list".

Stalin probably did expect Germany to spend more time conquering the rest of Europe, which would give USSR more time to build up the military.

Here are two cartoons on the topic by the great British political cartoonist, David Low.

Wait a sec. Wasn't Stalin the leader of the Soviet Union? That's not exactly Russia is it? I mean Russia was part of it but the Soviet Union is not Russia right? Sorry but i'm a little fuzzy here.

Wait a sec. Wasn't Stalin the leader of the Soviet Union? That's not exactly Russia is it? I mean Russia was part of it but the Soviet Union is not Russia right? Sorry but i'm a little fuzzy here.

The Soviet Union "officially" was a union comprising of different national areas (Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc.), but in reality the USSR was the successor state to Tsarist Russia and was lead by Russians (Russian leaders, not the people mind you.) from Moscow (The former capital of Russia before Peter The Great.). Josef Stalin, however, was Georgian.

It's probably worth noting the anti-Communist propaganda put out by the Nazi's and the potential impact this had on relations with Stalin.

The Soviet Union "officially" was a union comprising of different national areas (Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc.), but in reality the USSR was the successor state to Tsarist Russia and was lead by Russians (Russian leaders, not the people mind you.) from Moscow (The former capital of Russia before Peter The Great.). Josef Stalin, however, was Georgian.

The Reds took over the White government right? But before that, were the national areas you mentioned were already under Russian control? Is it fair to say that USSR= Russia?

I'm splitting hairs I know, but I'm pretty curious.

The Soviet Union consisted of the territory of the Russian Empire, minus Poland, Finland and Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (the last 3 were added in 1939, and a good chunk of Poland was added to Ukraine and Belarus in 1945).

As for the autonomous republics, the governments of for example Ukraine were in no way subordinate to the Russian government.

However, they were all fully under the foot of the communist party (which was seperate from but had full power over the Russian government)which in practice meant they had no real autonomy and were run from Moscow.

Right, so the article should be more accuarately described as the relations between Germany and the Soviet Union right? Otherwise you might as well say relations between Bavaria and Russia...

The Soviet Union "officially" was a union comprising of different national areas (Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc.), but in reality the USSR was the successor state to Tsarist Russia and was lead by Russians (Russian leaders, not the people mind you.) from Moscow (The former capital of Russia before Peter The Great.). Josef Stalin, however, was Georgian.
Lenin, however, was at quarter Jewish (is it rigt in English :confused:).
Khruschov, however, was Ukrainian.
Gorbachov, however, was Ukrainian too.
Too many exceptions, isn't it?
The Soviet Union consisted of the territory of the Russian Empire, minus Poland, Finland and Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (the last 3 were added in 1939, and a good chunk of Poland was added to Ukraine and Belarus in 1945).
And also minus Moldavia, what was occupied by Romania after revolution.

Lenin, however, was at quarter Jewish (is it rigt in English :confused:).
Khruschov, however, was Ukrainian.
Gorbachov, however, was Ukrainian too.
Too many exceptions, isn't it?
Besides Gorbachev (I'm not really sure about him) there were NO Russians leading USSR during all its time of existance. There was no evidence that Russians were more numerous (%wise) in Soviet government when there is certain evidence to the contrary.

Actually when I saw this thread, my first thought that it was about pre1914 Germany and Russia. To real historians and politicians (As well as those who claim to know history) nor Germany and Nazi Germany nor Russia and USSR are the same thing...

As for the Russian dominance of the Soviet union, perhaps one can frame it like this:

The selling point of the USSR was never "Russianness" but rather things like socialism, modernisation, progress.

However, the medium through which all these good things would be transferred just happened to be Russian.

The USSR always made a big song and dance of how well it treated all the different ethnicities comprising it. On balance this usually translated into apolitical, sanitised folk-dancing societies; ethnic, quaint, back-ward looking and no threat to the progressive forces of society, who would speak Russian as the lingua franca of the union.

If you look at the Tsarist empire it was also multui-ethnic, polyglot, run by a lot of people who weren't always Russians, but there was no mistaking the fact that the Russians dominated the empire.

Besides the last sentance (if it relates to the Soviet Union) I think I couln't have formulated it better myself :thumbsup:

The Russian Empire despite many allowances and different governining policies was a primarily Russian state, more "Russian" in culture and organisation than the Soviet Union....

Besides the last sentance (if it relates to the Soviet Union) I think I couln't have formulated it better myself :thumbsup:

The Russian Empire despite many allowances and different governining policies was a primarily Russian state, more "Russian" in culture and organisation than the Soviet Union....
That last sentance of mine was in recognition of, among other things, the fact that while the Swedes in the 19th c. were blithely dreaming about the "return" of Finland to the Swedish bosom, numerous Finns were in fact finding ample scope for their ambitions within the Russian empire. Little Sweden seems decidedly stale and small-townish by comparison to all that excitement.

Someone has calculated that between 1809 and 1917 over 400 Finnish military served the Emperor (it's NEVER the Tsar in Finland) at the rank of general or above.
Fieldmarshall Mannerheim himself, that old Red and Russian eater, started his carreer in one of the fancier Imperial Guards regiments in St. Petersburg, providing him a very cosmopolitan education.:goodjob: