In the "has anyone won a Civ Victory?" thread, someone brough up England possibly gaining Cultural, and one of the reasons cited was the prevalence of English in the world today. And that got me wondering ... does England really deserve credit for that? Places like India, obviously ... but they speak English in Japan too, and there's little reason to believe that that's due to English influence.

So the question is: who gets the credit?

(A few rules for the thread: one, I don't care if you dislike the word hegemony or imperial, they work best; two, please try to overcome any instinctive bias--for example, England is in your favorite squad's Group--and concentrate on historical/geo-political factors; and three, avoid counterfactuals and inanities--comments such as 'if it wasn't for the Americans, all of Europe would be speaking German' aren't really productive)

Language note: "Greater" Nineteenth Century refers to the period 1789-1914

I think it's pretty clear that it's England. Why? Many people today speak English as a second language, probably because of America. So that would probably cover countries like Japan, where many people speak English, but only as a foreign language. Indeed, in such places it's considered preferable to speak the American "version" of English rather than the standard kind - I have a Taiwanese friend who grew up in South Africa and therefore speaks English as her first language, but finds it hard teaching the language in Taiwan because people want their kids to have an American accent!

But surely what's more important is that many people speak English as a first language, and that's because of England. Pretty much every country where English is spoken speaks it because Britain once owned, colonised, or ruthlessly exploited it: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Nigeria, India, Singapore... It's a pretty long list. I'll admit, though, that American influence has in some cases affected how English is spoken in these countries; for example, in Singapore (where people speak a pretty odd version of English, though really no odder than the gutteral language favoured in south London) I often see standard English spellings mixed with American English spellings in the same sentence. But Singaporeans are terrible at spelling at the best of times.

Oh yes, and the United States and Canada should be on the list of countries that only speak English because the English colonised/conquered/bought them. If there are people speaking English today because of America, America only speaks it because of England. I mean, the English invented the language, so they're ultimately responsible for it, for better or for worse.

So of the options presented, the first one is surely the most accurate.

I think it's pretty clear that it's England. Why? Many people today speak English as a second language, probably because of America. But many people speak it as a first language, and that's because of England. So of the options presented, the first one is surely the most accurate.


That's a great way of putting it. I guess my follow-up question is: do more people speak it as a second language or as a first language?

Alfred the Great? :D

I'm pretty sure that there are more people in the world who speak English as a second language than as a first. But I'd still say that those who speak it as a first language are more significant. The reason is twofold: first, the language someone speaks as their native tongue is far more important to who they are than a language they speak in order to do business or go on holiday. Relatedly, consider how significant English culture has been in the English-speaking countries listed above, in addition to the legacy of the language: Calcutta, for example, is not only full of people speaking English but shares much of the same architectural style as London, and everyone there plays cricket. Again, the legal systems of these countries are all based to greater or lesser degrees on that of Britain. So we can extend the question beyond mere language and ask whether America or Britain has had a greater influence on the modern world. America's is more pervasive, no doubt, at least these days, but Britain's has been far deeper in the places where it has reached. And of course, that's largely because Britain had a huge empire and America didn't (it only had the Philippines, the one country where people speak English because of American occupation rather than British).

And second, there are degrees to which someone can speak a second language. My second language is theoretically French but I can't exactly hold long technical conversations in it these days. So there are no doubt millions of people who count as "speaking English" but don't speak it particularly well. It doesn't make much difference to them.

Actually, come to think of it, most of the English themselves probably come under that heading, but that's a problem for another thread.

The joys of being a bully: I'll suggest that British influence in making English the global language, is directly responsible for current American export successes. The British softened the world up for Hollywood.

I couldn't find exact statistical values, but quick figures hint at:

Over 2,000,000,000 people use Commonwealth English, and around 300,000,000 use American English. That would represent a significant disparity.

I will credit it to both.

Of course English came into India, spread, mixed, and was absorbed by Indians who had to work with the government or conduct any sort of business with the government. What it created was a thin crust of English-speaking upper-middle class to rich people spread across India with a binding factor hitherto non-existent in India. However, through 90 years of British rule, it only remained that; a thin upper crust covering a veritable melange of dialects, variations of innumerable languages.

At Independence, which was would have been impossible without the different tongued peoples of India coming together, it was decided, somewhat arbitrarily, that English should be gone in the next 15 years, to be replaced by Hindi. Perhaps the abolition of English itself was not so problematic, but its replacement was. It was quickly followed by protests and violence in major South Indian cities, which prompted hasty retreats and return of English as the language of the government.

As the autarkic policies of the successive socialist policies took effect, large numbers of Indians found themselves either too overqualified for any job, or too underpaid, or both and left these shores seeking brighter pastures. Unlike previous waves of immigration out of India, this was an emigration of the educated, fairly middle class individuals, who sought better fortunes than ones available in India. To them was opened the door of...


....America.

In the Indian imagination, America is still the land of honey and milk; of boundless opportunities and vast wealth waiting to be made. Inevitably, those who made it to America became the 'icons' of the others in their family and whenever they came back, they brought with them a litle bit of Americana, English not being the least of it all. Others saw this opportunity and felt that English was the key to unlock the vast treasure-house of opportunity that lay across the shores.

The situation was such till the 1990s, when the economy opened and then English came into its own. India's pathetic rural infrastructure, a result of bad policy, poor governance, and corruption, meant that foreign inestment poured into those sectors which had some semblance of infrastructure and did not need to depend too heavily on it. Ergo the service sector. Ergo the software services industry.

Software in India attracted the best for two reasons, initially, it provided a ticket to America, and later, its mass, industrial scale recruitment often inspired more people, good, bad and indifferent to take up computers at the college level because of the promise of an easy job. Software and coding being revolutionized by American companies writing code in English, ergo the need for English speaking Indians, ergo the importance of English.

English, whose seeds were planted by the er..English, was nurtured in its infancy by a small, but not entirely insignificant middle class, and was not allowed to whither in the lingua-chauvinists, Hindutva hordes or even Indi-pop and Bollywood, by the dream of a better life in English-speaking America and now spreads its tentacles deeper across the Indian heartland where the dream of a better life and better prospect is linked to a life in the city.

Just a few nit-picks.

Indians seem to target; Australia, Canada, USA, UK and Germany. Three of those nations speak Commonwealth English.

I have no figures for actual immigrants over the last 40 years, but Indian influence of population diversity is much higher in the UK than USA.

In the Indian imagination, America is still the land of honey and milk; of boundless opportunities and vast wealth waiting to be made. Inevitably, those who made it to America became the 'icons' of the others in their family and whenever they came back, they brought with them a litle bit of Americana, English not being the least of it all.

This may be true of India. But for most other former British possessions, it's more true of Britain. Anyone who's been to Earl's Court will know that most people in London seem to be from Australia, New Zealand, or South Africa. In fact, there are more Kiwis in London than there are in any town in New Zealand apart from Auckland itself! Of course, these are all middle-class 20-somethings, so the situation isn't really analogous to that of India. More analogous is Nigeria, where it seems that everyone aspires to move to London - or to have a family member there. The stereotype among Nigerians in Nigeria is that everyone in London lives in a great big house with a great big car and makes lots of money, which they should then send home to their family. Of course, the reality is rather different. But the former centre of empire is still perceived as the place to aspire to. This is why there's a booming trade in dodgy British passports among Nigerians (people with dual passports quite often sell their British one!).

Who Should Get Credit for the Prevalence of the English Language? Charlie Mops did more than anyone else to expand the use of English. Charlie was the inventor of beer

.A time ago, way back in history
When all there was to drink was nothing but cups of tea
Along came a man by the name of Charlie Mops
And he invented a wonderful drink and he made it out of hops.

Chorus:
He ought to be an Admiral, a Sultan, or a King
And to his praises, we should always sing.
Look what he has done for us, he's filled us up with cheer.
The Lord bless Charlie Mops, the man who invented,
Beer, beer, beer, tiddly-beer, beer beer.

A barrel of malt, a bushel of hops, you stir it around with a stick
The kind of lubrication that makes your engine tick.
Forty pints of malt a day will drive away the cracks
It's only eight pence a pint or 2 and 6 with tax.

The fanciest bar, the swankiest pub, the hole in the wall as well
There's one thing you can be sure of, it's Charlie's Beer they sell
So come on all you lucky lads, at 11 o'clock she stops
Five short seconds now, to remember Charlie Mops
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, (sniff, sniff).

Just a few nit-picks.

Indians seem to target; Australia, Canada, USA, UK and Germany. Three of those nations speak Commonwealth English.

I have no figures for actual immigrants over the last 40 years, but Indian influence of population diversity is much higher in the UK than USA.


That's true, but the influence of American culture on the young Indian's mind today is equal if not more than English culture (which itself is becoming Indianized;)).

# There are 3.22 million Indians in the US. From 1,500 in the early 1950s, the Sikh population in the U.S. has grown to nearly 500, 000
# Indian Americans are one of wealthiest and best educated communities in the United States. NRI (Non-Residential Indian) in US has median household income of $60,093, compared with $41,110 American.
# Indians are the richest immigrant class in the US, with nearly 200,000 millionaires
# Total Software Engineers came from India are 85% Indians Four out of 10 Silicon Valley startups are run by Indians.
# More than 90% NRIs are professionals.

from http://www.nriinternet.com/A_NRIinternet.com/Sale_Executives/NRIpopulation.htm

Australia opened up much later than the US and there was still that lingering stigma of racial discrimination attached to Australia than to the USA or UK.

Considering the number of Indian students who see the USA as the land of a better life, be it for education or a career, I would give the USA equal credit for the sustenance of the English language in India, and perhaps other Third World countries as well.

Of course there is also Hollywood, Rock n' Roll and Broadway to thank;)

The credits go to... France. Because we let the English take over Canada, we did not manage to have USA speak French, we let the English win the Napoleonic wars, etc.

you guys had ought to read my thread in this forum " hte history of the english langauge" it is a work in progress, but i hope to add to it soon. Im going to Ocean City for the weekend, but hope to add again on monday.

now to get back on topic. I vote for England, as even the US would not be speaking English if it wasnt for the English!

however, polls are fun, so this is a tough choice...

The credits go to... France. Because we let the English take over Canada, we did not manage to have USA speak French, we let the English win the Napoleonic wars, etc.
That's France, always willing to suffer crushing military defeats in the name of good sportsmanship. ;)

now to get back on topic. I vote for England, as even the US would not be speaking English if it wasnt for the English

That's not what's being asked though. If the US was speaking (say) Dutch instead of English, we wouldn't even have a poll, because either Dutch or English would be prevalent. So that response is as non-helpful as 'if it wasn't for the US, Europe would all be speaking German'.

Getting back to English, the winner of the United States 2005 National Spelling Bee in which school children compete to be named the countries best speller was (drum roll please) a 13 year old Indian-American named Anurag Kashyap.

Charlie Mops did more than anyone else to expand the use of English. Charlie was the inventor of beer

.A time ago, way back in history
When all there was to drink was nothing but cups of tea
Along came a man by the name of Charlie Mops
And he invented a wonderful drink and he made it out of hops.

Chorus:
He ought to be an Admiral, a Sultan, or a King
And to his praises, we should always sing.
Look what he has done for us, he's filled us up with cheer.
The Lord bless Charlie Mops, the man who invented,
Beer, beer, beer, tiddly-beer, beer beer.

A barrel of malt, a bushel of hops, you stir it around with a stick
The kind of lubrication that makes your engine tick.
Forty pints of malt a day will drive away the cracks
It's only eight pence a pint or 2 and 6 with tax.

The fanciest bar, the swankiest pub, the hole in the wall as well
There's one thing you can be sure of, it's Charlie's Beer they sell
So come on all you lucky lads, at 11 o'clock she stops
Five short seconds now, to remember Charlie Mops
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, (sniff, sniff).
If this is a joke sorry. If it is serious, then I have to say beer was known to ancient populations, especially egyptians, so no way an englishman could invent it.

Well, I would say England is responsible ultimately. Americans speak English, plain and simple. In the name itself the Americans verify where it comes from. Granted there are some small changes, but the language itself is from here in England.
If you spread that language through your own means, in my own opinion, that makes it no different to directly transferring or imposing it upon a people. On that basis, England (and Britain as a whole) is responsible for the use of English worldwide. I'd say it's English by proxy, English being pushed through alternative channels.

If this is a joke sorry.

It's an old drinking song! And about as serious as "I'm Henery the Eighth, I am".

Americans speak English, plain and simple.
Shall we reformulate it into "The Americans speak a plain and simple English"?

If one person should get the credit, it's Nathaniel Courthope.

He was an unusually heroic English adventurer who staked a claim on the spice island of Run, and held it against extremely hostile actions from the Dutch (they eventually killed him). However the English maintained their claim on Run until they finally exchanged it for the Dutch claim on another island- Manhattan.

Both, IMO. The English obviously did most of the "spreading" through their empire building, but I don't think it would be as prevalent today if not for the American superpower status from WW2 onward.

If it wasn't for America English would be far less important language than it is today. English became world's most important language only after WWI or maybe even after WWII. Before it was French (which was not as widely spoken as English is today) and before French it was Latin.
American culture was by my opinion most important generator of spreading English around both WW's, then it was economy+culture, now it is economy+culture+internet.

I voted equally important.

Though question really.. I guess i can give my personal experience though. I learned english through foreign movies in english subtittled in french at first, then internet in the late 90's. But was it because of Britain long history of Imperialism and its legacy. Well yes i guess, because the main settlers in North America were from Great Britain and Ireland then rest of Europe. Hence English was the most spoken language in USA. Hence, the spread of the English language to the rest of the world.

But, english is still not the most spoken language i believe, Mandarin (sp?), the Chinese tongue for example.

The British Empire spread English throughout a large part of the world. Then its successor, the American commercial empire, continued the spread. When two countries are world powers for over 200 years and speak the same language, that language is going to be widely used.

But as I said, you have to distinguish between the two ways it spread. The legacy of the British empire is that lots of people speak English as their first language (or, in some cases, as a fluent second language). The legacy of American cultural and economic influence is that lots of people speak English as a foreign language. Clearly, the former had much more of an impact. Put it this way: how many countries have road signs in English as a result of American influence?

But, english is still not the most spoken language i believe, Mandarin (sp?), the Chinese tongue for example.
In numbers, yes, there are probably more Mandarin speakers. However, far less people speak Mandarin outside of China than do English outside of England.

In numbers, yes, there are probably more Mandarin speakers. However, far less people speak Mandarin outside of China than do English outside of England.


Of course, you are quite right. No argue here. But whos to say how will China evolve in the next century. Who can predict, this century will see the hegemony of China, very much like the last century saw the expansion of the USA and the English language linked to it.

I remember in the late 70 and early 80, there was this thing in science-fiction novels, movies that pictured a world dominated by Japanese culture, language and economy. Blade Runner by Ridley Scott would be a good example. Because a lot of people believed Japan would beat the USA economicaly and perhaps through technology. Well, i guess they were wrong. But what about China? The sleeping Dragon as they nickname it.

I believe a China as strong than the USA even perhaps surpassing it at the end of this century is very probable.

it was the british that spread it everywhere, but i think the great usa will play a part in maintaining it in a few hundred years, when britain just becomes a "country" and nothing more.

I was going to vote Imperial Britain until I realized how fast English is spreading today. I travelled to Europe last year for the first time (for a one-week holiday in Vienna) and was utterly amazed that the vast majority of people I met was at least functional in English, and a very large number of people could speak English with amazing comprehension. Most of the people I asked about it said that the English has basically exploded in use over the past ten years.

I voted both, understanding that the British Imperialism has spread deeper but the American Hegemony has spread the language farther but shallower.

...and most of my friends think that learning Spanish and Mandarin (or less commonly, Japanese or Arabic) is the wave of the future. This past year, I have seen almost every large store in the west side Detroit Suburbs switch to Dual Spanish/English signs with a smattering of chinese characters and arabic script in the subtitles on rare occasion. It's definitely a new thing around these parts, to say the least.

Oh, and most Chinese in this area actually speak Cantonese, not Mandarin, so the few Chinese words and phrases that I learned growing up don't actually help much outside of these parts.

But as I said, you have to distinguish between the two ways it spread. The legacy of the British empire is that lots of people speak English as their first language (or, in some cases, as a fluent second language). The legacy of American cultural and economic influence is that lots of people speak English as a foreign language. Clearly, the former had much more of an impact. Put it this way: how many countries have road signs in English as a result of American influence?

i know in germany, italy and uk has "STOP" sign

and also, i think how much english is spoken in the world is disgusting.

The British obivously did most of the spreding of English as first language, but the Americans are responsible for the fact that English is the global language. I, an ethnic Italian/Spanish/Belgian/German living in a former portuguese colony am writing in English right now because of US influence.

Of course, the US only speak English because of the Brits, so ultimately both were equally as important.

I say "shared equally".

For me it's a question of:

A Need to speak English at Government Level over 1/4 of the World
+
British Imperial Education System
+
Hollywood & American Schools around the world
+
US Imperialism (military that is, cultural is Hollywood)

= English as the world language.

In other words....The British Empire spread English throughout a large part of the world. Then its successor, the American commercial empire, continued the spread. When two countries are world powers for over 200 years and speak the same language, that language is going to be widely used.And thanks for the great song. It's years since I've heard that. :beer: If this is a joke sorry. If it is serious, then I have to say beer was known to ancient populations, especially egyptians, so no way an englishman could invent it.Oh, it's such a topsy turvy, beery kind of song that it got it's chronology of beverages precisely upside down, inside out, if you will.

American English is the official langauge of the air land and sea. All air traffic transmission are by internation law in English (American Version) as is all Sea Traffic and all technical manuals (words) much like latin is in the medical/science fields. This suppose to insure everyone is on the same page when talking and taking off and landing at airports and coming and going from sea ports.
Soon India will be the largest English speaking county, in part due to Englands occupation and now in part to America farming out tech support jobs. I think that just due American world wide presents around the world is why more people speak American English, i.e. the Internet, Movies, Magizines, Mass Media, Tourist, travellers and last but not least the Military.
Even in forums I don't see as many English folks using that native vernacular as I do see Americans using theres, more words in the last 50-100 years have gone back accross the pond (West to East) than have came over.
Now don't get me wrong I'm proud of my English/Scottish roots but I just think American English is taking on a life of it's own. Point being American English has many words from many langauges and has many words that are uniquely ours. CD, DVD, PC, geek, nifty, hacker and many other CRAZY words ... oh "crazy" an American word. The world is now polluted with American lexicons, trust me I'm not saying that is a good thing, because I think the langauge is getting to be about as lazy as many of the people. We all type and speak in acronyms anymore.
Both American English and the Queens English have tons of word from other languages, Latin (Roman) French, Spanish, German, Italian and now a influx of Asian words. Native langauges are dying out and who knows in a few 100 years if that long we have a universal langauge and only a few very rare unique ones like American English as we'll all be speaking Spanglish.:D

Anyway I have G2G BBL havta C a VIP, FYI, so keep it on da QT. Needta B dar ASAP, PDQ so TTFN. CU L8R LOL

Shall we reformulate it into "The Americans speak a plain and simple English"?


Really? Might I remind you that "Surrender" is a French word, but you already knew that didn't you? That seems plain and simple enough.

Really? Might I remind you that "Surrender" is a French word, but you already knew that didn't you? That seems plain and simple enough.
http://www.frenchlinguistics.com/dictionary/
Type "surrender" and search. You will see that Surrender is not a French word (not result for the search)
But here, you can find it in an English dictionnary http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=surrender
See? It's an English word.

http://www.frenchlinguistics.com/dictionary/
Type "surrender" and search. You will see that Surrender is not a French word (not result for the search)
But here, you can find it in an English dictionnary http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=surrender
See? It's an English word.


According to Oxford it's Old French/Anglo-French - from "surrendre" I'm going with Oxford, sadly you have to pay to access their online dictionary. Whom would you say is more in tune with the English langauge ... Oxford or Merriam-Webster a plain and simple American dictionary?

It's from "se rendre", to give or render oneself. Steph's point is that although "surrender" comes from the French, it is not itself French. Although I don't understand why you brought this up.

Congrats, you did your homework well.

Surrender is not a French word. It's and English word that come from an old French word "Surrendre".

Now that we have been very precise on the origin of this work... What does it prove?

that english people like moving r's around

According to Oxford it's Old French/Anglo-French - from "surrendre" I'm going with Oxford, sadly you have to pay to access their online dictionary. Whom would you say is more in tune with the English langauge ... Oxford or Merriam-Webster a plain and simple American dictionary?
I'll go with the one that doesn't incorrectly spell se rendre. :p

I think it is because of the USA that english became the new international language,
till the middle twentieth century, in countries were english was not spoken as first languge, it was even more common in the periphery to study french, or even german than english, since those 2 languages had high class, scientific, literary prestige, and also greek and latin were still commonly taught back then, it is only after the ww2, and hollywood, and rock music and the USA as super power, that french, german, latin, greek were dropped, and english became the language to learn for everybody.