View Full Version : Wonder race tie


frogger3d
Jun 09, 2006, 02:24 AM
In an effort to win a wonder race I whipped 2 of my population in my capital. The next turn I was told that I lost and that the shields were converted into cash.. That doesn't seem fair, give me back my population!! Does a player always lose ties for a wonder?

pigswill
Jun 09, 2006, 02:49 AM
At the start of a turn you often get 'waiting for other civs' so probably. Wonder racing is always a gamble. Think of the money (should have got at least 60 gold for your 2 pop)

cabert
Jun 09, 2006, 02:50 AM
In an effort to win a wonder race I whipped 2 of my population in my capital. The next turn I was told that I lost and that the shields were converted into cash.. That doesn't seem fair, give me back my population!! Does a player always lose ties for a wonder?

there are no ties
it's a turn based game

And you have the head start against the AI!
So what you feel as a tie is in fact a 1 turn lost race.

Remember, buildings are built at the beginning of your turn, not at the end. Meaning the AI already had all the shields in when you poprushed, too bad you didn't know it yet:(

frogger3d
Jun 09, 2006, 02:53 AM
BUT.. if I have a hostile unit outside my city and I have a unit that is ready in 1 turn it is ready before the hostile unit attacks..

Stormreaver
Jun 09, 2006, 03:18 AM
BUT.. if I have a hostile unit outside my city and I have a unit that is ready in 1 turn it is ready before the hostile unit attacks..

No.


Your turn (you pop-rush and the slavery hammers are added - but the wonder ain't built yet OR you see "1 turn" left to unit completion)

Their turn (they add the final hammers from normal production and build the wonder OR they attack your city)

Your turn (You are supposed to convert the hammers to a wonder, but it's already finished - hence you get the money OR your unit is not built, since your city is conquered already..)


Your problem is that pop-rushing do not really finish the wonder, just adds enough hammers to finish it in the beginning of your next turn, when your production is processed.

cabert
Jun 09, 2006, 03:20 AM
BUT.. if I have a hostile unit outside my city and I have a unit that is ready in 1 turn it is ready before the hostile unit attacks..

true
there is something wrong here

cabert
Jun 09, 2006, 03:27 AM
No.


Your turn (you pop-rush and the slavery hammers are added - but the wonder ain't built yet OR you see "1 turn" left to unit completion)

Their turn (they add the final hammers from normal production and build the wonder OR they attack your city)

Your turn (You are supposed to convert the hammers to a wonder, but it's already finished - hence you get the money OR your unit is not built, since your city is conquered already..)



wrong
i very often poprush a defender against attacking units.
I don't get to promote the unit, but the unit defends the city



Your problem is that pop-rushing do not really finish the wonder, just adds enough hammers to finish it in the beginning of your next turn, when your production is processed.

Stormreaver
Jun 09, 2006, 03:30 AM
wrong
i very often poprush a defender against attacking units.
I don't get to promote the unit, but the unit defends the city

Huh... ok, I might be wrong here, I don't pop-rush that much - I'm a sucker for stability. Above has always been my perception of how production (and pop-rushing) was done..

If I'm wrong I do not understand why you'd lose the wonder.

cabert
Jun 09, 2006, 03:41 AM
It seems (should check the SDK, but don't know what i should be looking for) that at the beginning of a new turn (date change),
buildings are prepared in a certain order, and the player isn't coming first (most likely, he is last).
It seems, there are ties, and you just lose the tie :(

pigswill
Jun 09, 2006, 04:01 AM
It could be you get some bizarre build order at the start of a turn, your units first, ai units and buildings (inc wonders) then your builds (inc wonders) which would explain the phenomena (even if it does seem bizarre). Promotions and the such come in the movement phase of the turn which comes after the build phase.
Thinking about it even if your units got built at the end of the build phase they would still be completed before the start of the movement phase (i.e. before AI attacks).
So the sequence would be:ai builds, you build, ai moves,you move.

cabert
Jun 09, 2006, 04:07 AM
It could be you get some bizarre build order at the start of a turn, your units first, ai units and buildings (inc wonders) then your builds (inc wonders) which would explain the phenomena (even if it does seem bizarre). Promotions and the such come in the movement phase of the turn which comes after the build phase.
Thinking about it even if your units got built at the end of the build phase they would still be completed before the start of the movement phase (i.e. before AI attacks).
So the sequence would be:ai builds, you build, ai moves,you move.

i think you've got it right :sad:

Killroyan
Jun 09, 2006, 04:14 AM
Sounds pretty right indeed as I have witnessed this also. Pop rushed an archer in my city who had just lost his last archer. The barbs did not take the city although it was undefended. This was propably because the archer would already defend the city now.

MrCynical
Jun 09, 2006, 06:26 AM
In an effort to win a wonder race I whipped 2 of my population in my capital. The next turn I was told that I lost and that the shields were converted into cash.. That doesn't seem fair, give me back my population!! Does a player always lose ties for a wonder?

In the event of two civs finishing a wonder on the same turn the wonder goes to the civ with the greatest number of overflow hammers. Presumably you only just whipped enough population to go a few hammers over the completion limit, and some other civ went further.

It's the same for other tied situations (like if two civs hit liberalism on the same turn). The one with the greatest number of overflow beakers gets the bonus.

MazX_TheDog
Jun 09, 2006, 07:02 AM
In the event of two civs finishing a wonder on the same turn the wonder goes to the civ with the greatest number of overflow hammers. Presumably you only just whipped enough population to go a few hammers over the completion limit, and some other civ went further.

It's the same for other tied situations (like if two civs hit liberalism on the same turn). The one with the greatest number of overflow beakers gets the bonus.

That makes a lot of sense to me.[civ4]

Zombie69
Jun 09, 2006, 09:21 AM
In the event of two civs finishing a wonder on the same turn the wonder goes to the civ with the greatest number of overflow hammers. Presumably you only just whipped enough population to go a few hammers over the completion limit, and some other civ went further.

It's the same for other tied situations (like if two civs hit liberalism on the same turn). The one with the greatest number of overflow beakers gets the bonus.

I can confirm that statement.

VoiceOfUnreason
Jun 09, 2006, 09:58 AM
In the event of two civs finishing a wonder on the same turn the wonder goes to the civ with the greatest number of overflow hammers. Presumably you only just whipped enough population to go a few hammers over the completion limit, and some other civ went further.

It's the same for other tied situations (like if two civs hit liberalism on the same turn). The one with the greatest number of overflow beakers gets the bonus.

I can confirm that statement.

SDK reference? Because I haven't found anything like that scouring the code.

Zombie69
Jun 09, 2006, 12:24 PM
No, from tests within the game.

E.g. you get beat by a turn. Out of curiosity, reload to last turn and rush it. You'll probably get it. If you don't, adding more production on that turn will do the trick. Therefore, it does seem like the amount of overflow is the determining factor.

XxtraLarGe
Jun 09, 2006, 01:48 PM
In the event of two civs finishing a wonder on the same turn the wonder goes to the civ with the greatest number of overflow hammers. Presumably you only just whipped enough population to go a few hammers over the completion limit, and some other civ went further.

It's the same for other tied situations (like if two civs hit liberalism on the same turn). The one with the greatest number of overflow beakers gets the bonus.

I don't believe that is the case.

This is my personal observation: I played a hot-seat game by myself just to experiment with different civics & experiment with buildings, etc. and the wonders are completed at the end of your turn. So that means that if the turn order was Alexander, Caesar and Napolean, and both Alexander and Caesar are working on the same wonder, and if Alexander finishes the wonder at the end of the turn, when it's Caesar's turn, he gets a little note that says "Alexander just completed the wonder you were working on WONDER", and then you get another note telling you your work was sold for X gold.

This may be different from a non-multiplayer game, but I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

Roland Johansen
Jun 09, 2006, 02:16 PM
I do know that you first get a message that a player has finished the wonder. Only the turn after that, the production invested in the wonder is converted into gold. So it can never be that you finish a wonder without knowing that it was already finished and the next turn it is sold.
I've been beaten to wonders and the wonder is never directly converted to money when you get the report that the wonder was finished by another player. You can wait one turn and only then it will be converted into money.

If you don't watch the messages carefully or look in the log, then you might miss the message. If you still have a savegame of the turn before the selling of the wonder, then you can see if the turn log contains a message that says that the wonder has already been finished.

I have never been in a tie before and have never tested it, but remember to have read a statement that first all production of a turn is finished and only then all movement is conducted. So along the lines:
player A produces, player B produces, player C produces,
player A moves, player B moves, player C moves,
player A produces, player B produces, player C produces,
player A moves, player B moves, player C moves,
I don't know for sure if this is true as I've never tested it before. But it seems like a logical system and it certainly allows rushed units to be finished before the next attack on a city occurs. This system actually never has ties as the players move in turns. The one who is earlier in the turn has finished its production earlier.
The person claiming that this was the way it worked, claimed that the human player started first in the first turn of the game and the order remained the same from that moment on. So the human has a slight advantage.

Nares
Jun 09, 2006, 02:21 PM
EDIT: The system must be closer to this.

You move. You produce. AI moves. AI produces.

Or rather:

Player 1 moves. Players 1 builds. Player 2 moves. Player 2 builds.

Build completion takes place as a result of clicking the End Turn button. I imagine this would result in a Wall in Player 1's city being completed before Player 2 could attack, much like how whipped defenders can defend against incoming attacks.

It sounds like the OP was clicking the End Turn button too fast, and the Wonder completed message was displayed a turn late, leading him to believe it was completed on that turn, rather than on the turn preceeeding it, when it was actually completed.

glokkonn
Jun 11, 2006, 03:12 AM
My vote goes to Zombie. Here is what he seems to be saying.

You get beat by a turn on a wonder.
Go back 1 turn and add some more production.
You win the wonder (if presumably the amount of overflow exceeds the winning countries amount of overflow).

This implies that for each turn, all production is done simultaneously (and presumably tech advances too), and that ties are resolved in favor of the one with most overflow (random for overflow ties?).

If there were a set order of civs getting their builds one after another then adding extra production would never change losing a wonder race to winning a wonder race.

MrCynical
Jun 11, 2006, 04:26 AM
This is my personal observation: I played a hot-seat game by myself just to experiment with different civics & experiment with buildings, etc. and the wonders are completed at the end of your turn. So that means that if the turn order was Alexander, Caesar and Napolean, and both Alexander and Caesar are working on the same wonder, and if Alexander finishes the wonder at the end of the turn, when it's Caesar's turn, he gets a little note that says "Alexander just completed the wonder you were working on WONDER", and then you get another note telling you your work was sold for X gold.

This is completely consistent with the wonder tie being decided by overflow production. As I understand it the production phases of all the civs occur simultaneously before the movement phases.

I suspect people are being confused because in Civ 3, the system was that the first civ on the list got the woder in the event of the tie. However this gave the human player a slight advantage (and the host player had this advantage in multiplayer, which was VERY noticeable). I would assume this is the reason for the change.

VoiceOfUnreason
Jun 11, 2006, 11:42 AM
Hmm, I'm still in the "production immediately at the end of the turn camp", but there' are some weird bits.

As a test, I tried Play by Email on a duel map, ping ponging back and forth between the two players. With player #1 about to play, player 1 had 71 hammers invested in Stonehenge, producing at 12 per turn. player 2 had 78 hammers invested, producing at 10 per turn.

So on the next turn, player #1 hits 83 hammers. Here's what I saw after I clicked End Turn.
1) The build queue for the city emptied.
2) The "saved game" dialog appeared
3) After that dialog was dismissed, the announcement of the building of Stonehenge was broadcast to player #1.

Now I opened the saved game for player #2.
1) The event log lists that Stonehenge is BIDAL.
2) The production queue is not emptied.
3) There is no announcement for Stonehenge.

Click end turn
1) Production queue empties
2) I get the announcement that I cannot continue building Stonehenge, and get 78g (not 88g!) for my trouble.


I get the same results (with the roles of the players reversed) if I arrange for player #2 to score the wonder first.


This all appears to me to be consistent with my reading of the code: that the production phase occurs between the end of the turn and the beginning of the next player's turn. Overflow is thus completely irrelevent, all that matters is who gets the wonder finished on their build queue first... with enough weirdness in the scheduling of the announcements that one could easily believe that you "built" it first, only to get cheated out of it by someone after you.