I would like to start a Deity succession game, for a variety of reasons....

The roster is now FULL!

1. I've not seen a SG lose yet. I think it would be interesting and instructive. Deity can assure that.

2. I want to found my own SG and do something different.

3. Nobody's done it yet.

4. I'm sick...and need a distraction from it.

Parameters:

- Deity
- Small map, continents, rampaging barbarians, 5M years
- Civ: Egypt
- Opponents: England, America, India, Germany, France
- All win conditions enabled

Rules:

- 24/72 hours (more liesurely so can really micromanage ... and gives me time to play) for posting "got it"/playing.
- I'll play 30, next (Sirian, I hope?) plays 20, then 10 turns
- Minimal weed use

Now that I've attracted some interest, I'll post the first 30 turns when I can, hopefully tonight but quite possibly not until Monday -- slow, laid-back game.

Turn order:

Arathorn
Sirian
Toecheese3
Jaffa <<< PLAYING
Charis << On DECK

Arathorn

30/20/10 sounds good.

I'll pick up somewhere after the 30/20.

OK, I'll give it a shot.

Sirian takes on Deity, I bookmark the thread. ;)

Seriously, as somebody who's followed Sirian since the days of Ember in the Game That Shall Go Unnamed, it's always a thrill to see him step up to another challenge.

(and yes, I really did bookmark the thread)

Good luck, guys.

Heh, I'd consider jumping on the bandwagon, but I think I've got enough to do as is. Maybe if I hadn't joined the Roman mod game, or if Infantry were already over... :)

I'd like to join another SG since RBD 3 will be ending soon, and I eventually want to play on Deity, but I haven't even played on Emperor yet and I'm not sure I'm up to the challenge. I'll be following the game with interest, though.

Still looking for at least one more....

I played the first few (like 6) turns last night. Reasonably good starting location. It's coastal which I'm not too fond of, but we did start on a river. I, of course, moved off of it, just to give Sirian something to complain about. :weed: Only kiddin'! We are on the coast, though, which is making me consider a Colussus try... Probably not the most centered of capitals, but I've been moving my capital (with a GL) just about every game lately, so I'm not too concerned.

The time is coming soon to decide on military vs. builder opening. With the river extending near us, I'm leaning towards builder....

Arathorn

I'm not ready to not screw up a deity level game. But I'll certainly be watching to see how y'all do!

Jester

Okay, I guess I can give it a go :)

Did someone mention a game where our chances for getting slaughtered are significantly higher than usual??? :hammer:

Count me in!! (If there's a slot left, of course)

Charis

(PS Arathorn- your comment in one of our threads along the lines of 'I hope Charis reconsiders LOTR' is what drew my attention. I saw the original post back when there were no replies and did not think you would get a credible roster. With a crew that 'smacks around emperor', we stand a moderate chance)

We have a full roster. Turn order and roster are listed at the top of the page. I want to say thanks to those who willingly joined a SG with a relative unknown in the community.

A few notes on deity:

- Tech parity early is nearly impossible, but very important. IMO, the Great Library is critical. I've won with it mulitiple times and never lasted without it. Whether we conquer or build is another story....

As an example of this, America has 4 techs we don't ~3600 (notes are at home). We have one they don't.

Lincoln will pay 3 gold for our tech. Our tech plus 28 gold plus 3 gpt (all we can afford) registers as "They would probably be insulted by this deal." It's insanely brutal, especially after 1.17.

- You can build wonders, but only with a big headstart, either through prebuilding or tech superiority or both. I like building my own around ToE. I'm very seriously looking at pre-building the Library about now for us, though, as it's the way things are looking.

- Combat is the same. This is key. Since we're all capable of beating superior numbers (and occasional superior units), this is one of the areas we'll really need to keep on our toes.

- The AI players start with an extra settler, and a ton of extra units. It's usually best to let them spread out, so we can concentrate our efforts on a thinner force.

- Luck never hurts either.
Arathorn

Arathorn said: I want to say thanks to those who willingly joined a SG with a relative unknown in the community.

I include myself in that one as well - thanks.

And - I can attest to Arathorn's civ ability. Thanks for counting me in and I'm really looking forward to this game (even though it might be a drubbing)

Let's see what we can do WITHOUT the poprush loophole. Whipping = OK. Whipping a city down to nothing but a specialist = OK. Adding workers to a specialist city to whip it more = Off The Table. Sound reasonable?

- Sirian

OK with me -

Absolutely. I consider that an exploit. Whipping a city to complete unhappiness is fine (and possibly necessary), but cheating by adding and whipping is not OK.

Hopefully I'll get this played and posted tonight, but I make no promises, as I've still not eaten more than about one meal's worth of food in the last 4 days.

Arathorn

In the year 5000 BC, Arathorn, Cleopatra's latest trophy husband, suggested she settle down in a more permament place.

Almost exactly 1000 years later, she did....

4000 BC - Thebes is founded. The site is pretty excellent, really. We're on a river (and no, I didn't even really consider moving off of it!) with two shielded grasslands in range already and another one after culture expansion. We're also coastal, giving us access to Colussus, if we go that route (I don't think we should -- at least not initially). Keeping Thebes central might be difficult, but time will tell on that score.

Alphabet ordered at min sci. I'd like to go zero science, but the thought of being isolated scares me too much.

3800 BC - A lone warrior unit is formed in Thebes. It is sent out to explore the wilds. Arathorn is glad for a bit of a break from seeing the warrior pound turf. Another warrior is ordered.

3700 BC - The world waits to see what treasures lie in a goodie hut tantalizingly near Thebes this whole time. Unfortunately, it is empty. Arathorn mutters something about his luck holding true to its course.

3600 BC - A second warrior unit is formed in Thebes.

The warrior is dispatched to explore. We need knowledge of the land! Another warrior is ordered.

3550 BC - A banner year. Contact with stinkin' Lincoln, the leader of the inferior American tribe. Despite his generous offer of 6 gold for Ceremonial Burial, we decline. All deals offered are ludicrous and we pass.

Thebes' borders expand. The city grows. Luxury rates are raised to 20% and science lowered to 20% (exactly one of each -- beaker and happy face). We see furs to the west, but still out of range.

3500 BC - Third warrior unit. Sent exploring.

3400 BC - Fourth warrior unit. Sent exploring. A settler is now ordered. It essentially wastes a turn of shields but we're getting unit costs now and we can ill afford them. Waiting for another warrior would have delayed the settler one turn and possibly caused happiness problems.

The worker, having finished mining and roading the second shielded grass is building a road toward the future site of Memphis. Roads means faster settling.

3200 BC - The year of crossed fingers. One warrior enters a strange village. The people within are quite friendly and teach him the art of pottery. Phew! A different warrior enters another village, only to find it desserted like the first. If only deodorant had been invented, Arathorn muses. Still, opening three goodie huts with a ton of expansionist civs around isn't bad.

3100 BC - Shields eliminated so the settler arrives exactly simultaneously with the third pop point.

3000 BC - Settler created. Pyramids ordered in Thebes, as a hopeful Great Library placeholder. I'm banking a lot on getting the Great Library built, and starting this early is step one. I realize we don't even have alphabet yet, but.... Colussus is a good back-up plan.

The settler eschews the river to the north, heading east on the road built for his use. The land around Thebes is stunningly lush. Arathorn pointed out to Cleopatra that a certain spot would have access to two wheat, a shared shielded grass with Thebes, and, as a bonus, a freshwater lake. Can't ask for much more than that.

Luxuries are rescinded. Science upped to 30% (still one beaker). A warrior finds dark blue borders to the north.

2950 BC - Contact with Germany. They have 4 cities. We're still at one. However, I trade contact with America and 7 gold for alphabet and bronze working. The American scout was right behind my warrior, so this was a phenomonal deal.

The Germans are aware of another culture, the English. We decline to use the Germans as an intermediary, preferring to wait to meet the English ourselves. (I figure with a scout, the English will be along on their own soon enough. Why pay?)

Writing ordered at 40 turn rate.

2900 BC - Memphis founded. The wheat is tempting, but there's a mined, roaded, shielded grassland that's more inviting. I grab it, sending a worker to mine a wheat. I order a granary, expecting Memphis to be a great settler/worker location. With some micromanagement, I think whipping will be in order here.

Trade writing from America for 3 gpt and 6 gold. Lit ordered in 40 turns. Looks like the tech will easily beat the shields for the Great Library. I just hope we get it.

First barbarians spotted.

2850 BC - Pop another goodie hut. What are the expansionist scouts doing? We get 25 gold from this one.

2750 BC - Contact an English scout. Ha! I knew we didn't need to buy it. I trade Writing and Masonry for a worker and 9 gold. (Instead of the 9 gold, I could have gotten warrior code, but since I've pretty well committed us to a GL push, any tech which doesn't help in the GL quest is next to worthless).

2590 BC - Dispersed a barb hut near Memphis. 25 more gold.

2550 BC - Cleopatra tires of Arathorn's luxurious behaviors. As his final act of bravado, he ups luxuries to 20% nationwide, keeping both Thebes and Memphis happy despite their both growing to size two.

Notes:

- Warriors starting to head back towards the cities, to act as MP and protect against barbarians.
- The English are north of the Germans.
- We're relatively rich in gold, but other than buying workers, I don't see much use.
- First possible weed siting...I'm mining the second wheat near Memphis. As I think back, it might be near the freshwater lake, which still looks too much like an ocean to me. Irrigating would probably have been better. It might be worth correcting. That's what I get for playing sick and tired. I just couldn't wait any longer.
- If we don't get the Great Library, we're in deep doo-doo. I think I've set us up to get it, though.

Lots of decisions for Sirian, though. 20 turns. Then 10 per after that.

A better start than I could've hoped for but still MILES to go.
Arathorn

UP -- Sirian
On deck -- Toecheese3

Ummm...sure...that sounds fair??? NOT!!!

Pretty fertile and lush...

IT 2550BC: Two cities? Hmm. Swap Memphis second tile to second wheat, change orders to settler. Had to increase luxury to 30%.

I would normally also irrigate wheat tiles, but no time to stop for that now. We need roads.

2470BC: American mob about to pick up 25 gold west of Thebes.

2430BC: Americans lose a warrior attacking the barb camp! Amazing. (Then one of their other 10000 units won, of course, but hey, they lost one, that's one more than I expected).

2310BC: Settler produced, heads west. Another settler started.

Somewhere in here: gave Abe 5 gold gift, he turns around and threatens me next turn, demanding tert map and 22 gold! I cave. (Did you SEE that mob??) (Demanding maps? They have mapmaking). Then Germans establish embassy with us and start Pyramids.

2150BC: Heliopolis founded on a hill by the river, should be decently defensible spot and establish a logical border for us, and lots of shields around. Starts temple. (Must expand border).

AI list of known techs is growing.

1950BC: road to Heliopolis connected.

1830BC: Settler produced at Memphis, starts warrior to replace one sent with settler. Luxuries increased back up to wasteful rates because Thebes is size 4 now with no temple and only one MP unit.

1790BC: Took the American incense offline by pillaging mountain road in neutral territory.

1750BC: Elephantine founded on lake by incense in the east. Some overlap (beggars can't be choosers).

Established embassy with America for 37 gold. Their Pyramids will be completed in seven more turns. :( We won't get Lit for 12. :( Must have another placeholder, and Lighthouse would beat Oracle due to coastal aspect. I check prices for Mapmaking. Abe, now all smiles after we gave him cash gift, licked his boots AND paid for an embassy, is willing to sell us mapmaking@4th for a mere 70 gold. (???) I'm in a Charislike mood, so I take it. (There goes the treasury! :lol: ). Swap Thebes to Lighthouse, due in 17, so our hopes for the GL remain alive (perhaps even likely, if Biz cascades to Oracle).

Full fledged map brokering yields us the known world map for about another dozen gold spent, and Biz now also polite with us.

Our last roaming warrior moved onto another neutral tile with a road in American lands. If borders do not expand next turn and it remains unclaimed, pillage that road!

WORST CASE: finish the Lighthouse and try to make contact with the other two civs. Might also still get the Colossus after first wonder, nobody else that we know of has a strong coastal city as yet. BEST CASE (like, in your dreams case): We get the GL then go on to get the Colossus too.

Oh yeah, and Biz was giving the biz to poor Liz. She's got two cities left (and a peace treaty finally). Got roughed up hard. Abe is about to rake in another 25 cash to our east, nothing I could do about it.

We need at least two more cities: one with no overlap on the west peninsula, to get the fur, and one on inland sea coast 4 directly NE of Helio. That will leave some unused land in the center, about enough for one half city very near capital at some later time when land grabbing has settled down.

Um... so far, so good. I suppose. No whipping took place on my watch :whipped: :nono: I WANTED to build some temples, but my hands were tied.


- Sirian

A peek at my humble expansionistic results.

I've got it! :D

Probably won't be posting until later this evening (EST). The wife wants to go shopping for curtains. :rolleyes:

If it's any consolation about possibly not getting the Great Library, a game I started yesterday (on Diety) is somewhere in the midgame and I'm holding my own. Granted I'm still about 6 techs behind the leader, but it's not unsalvagable.

Anyhow - BBL with the game and some screenshots.

Rough start for the home team -

Preturn 1750 B.C. - Surveyed the situation and decided Heliopolis needs to get into the warrior/worker/settler business and whipped out a temple. The early culture on the future American border will help us later when the cities start flipping.

Between 1750 B.C. and 1725 B.C. - Biz decides to be cute and demands TM and 19gp. Noticing our army totals four warriors, one of which is buried deep in American territory, we oblige.

1725 B.C. - Temple complete at Heliopolis, Warrior ordered for defense of the next city. Worker near Heliopolis moved toward grassland with the shield for development. Worker near fur continues to build road to prep future city site. Traded a world map and 3gp to Liz for Warrior Code. With the possibility of Great Library, I normally wouldn't do this but a) the price was right and b) if Biz or Abe get snippy we'll need at least one good offensive unit (archers). Tried buying some other things but the price is too steep. Treasury will be increasing for the forseeable future. American warriors defeat barbarian camp to NE of Elephantine. 6.1.3 continues to be our best option. Warrior pillages road near incense.

1700 B.C. - Worker starts mine near Heliopolis. Pillage warrior sent to take out barbarian camp near the flood plains.

1675 B.C. - American galley drops off a settler and defensive unit near the furs. :( This definitely screws up the happiness game plan. Hopefully the proximity of Thebes will cause the city to flip. Warrior completed in Memphis, settler ordered up.

1650 B.C. - Foiled again, Americans defeat barbarian camp our warrior was heading to. Warrior doubles back to incense area to scout pillaging opportunities. Worker ends road building operations near the furs and is ordered to head toward Thebes. Still at 6.1.3.

1625 B.C. - Houston founded. :( Not good.

1600 B.C. - Heliopolis finishes Warrior, worker ordered up. Americans finish building Pyramids in Washington. Americans also building Oracle (not cascaded).

1575 B.C. Worker building mine near Thebes. No one we know has researched literature yet. Still at 6.1.3.

Between 1575 and 1550 B.C. - Germans builiding Oracle - France completes Oracle (whoops, sorry Biz).

1550 B.C. - Pillaging warrior caught in culture expansion. Started moving out of American territory. Notice American galley heading up the coast - probably toward the open land near Elephantine.

My summary - we're in pretty rough shape. The warrior criss-crossing the American badlands was bad enough, the founding of Houston really sucks. There's nothing we could do about it either, short of switching Thebes production and wasting, oh, a million or so shields. It feels like I didn't accomplish anything in 10 turns - pretty frustrating.

On a high note (if you want to call it that) a settler is coming shortly from Memphis. If we're going to stick this one out, we'll need at least a city toward the NE of the extra warrior (he's the guard) and at the silks way to the north in the jungles for happiness. I think we're looking at eight cities max - doesn't bode well on diety level.

Here's the Americans' city -

And here's the game

Don't give up on the furs! Don't let Houston push you around!

Flip that puppy!! Settle smack next to the furs, snagging them
and applying great pressure to next-to-Thebes-dumb-wth-is-Abe-thinking city-to-be-flipped-to-us Houston.

:hammer:

*WITH* any pressure with a nook city, Houston is ours. If it's allowed to expand boundaries it can't flip and will be a thorn in our side. Eight cities is PLENTY for now given such an expansionist and aggressive neighbor. There's no way on earth we can hold more (heck, even hold 8?) vs this crew. Batten down the hatches :P
Charis

EDIT - to answer Toe's question without a new post...
Would I found a city right next to Houston? Absolutely!! That's become a hallmark move for me now. It worked so well in rbd1 when Cy squoze the Persians that I did it twice in one player turn in rbd3 (Deacon's Beacon) and saw results really quick.
-the word 'Settle' above was 'settled' in the original post, so you may have read that as a description rather than a suggestion :P
If it flips, we win the city with zero hard feelings from Abe, and the citizens are all considered 'ours'. They key reason I think this will work is the proximity to Thebes. Unlike other flipping factors the *ratio* of distances to capitols plays a quantitative role. (So does the number of squares in the 21 city radius not in the cities control. And you can increase that number to about 14 if you found next to the furs. That's like 14 of OUR resistors in THEIR city, and that close to Thebes. Houston is toast. Of course... Abe could still roll over our entire civ including Houston in his sleep :eek:

:rotfl:
Batten down the hatches. I was thinking about locking the women and children up too - this could be a bloodbath later.

Funny too - I was thinking the same thing when I saw we were planted in close proximity to America and Germany. Pretty tough draw to be planted on the same continent with the expansionist Americans and the warlike Germans.

Question Charis - would you plant another city near Houston to crowd them out? I wouldn't...

I'm watching this game with great interest. I'm still a regent/monarch player. So, I hope you don't mind me butting in.
I think you guys did a great job starting the game (with the Americans so close).
On the Houston subject, I agree with Charis. You should put a city close to Houston and try to flip it. If the Americans have a better culture than you, then you'll have a huge problem. I imagine that at deity level, the expansionist civs don't stay behind in culture due to their production bonus.

I agree with Charis, we can still get the furs and that's the main thing. Whether or not Houston flips is another story. Whether or not we want it even if it does is not an automatic "Yes" either.

This is a small map. Ideal # cities = 6, double that for "OK", more goes way into the corruption penalty. Every new city America gets from here on out is hurting their core production. The AI is not sharp enough to plan wise FP sites. We would probably take Houston if it offered to flip, but we really need to stop and think at every move we make, not jump at things on automatic from what we normally would do.

The temple whipping at Helio was a very poor decision. :smoke: The temple was due in just six turns, so you bought 15 shields for 40 (40!) turns of penalty and 10 culture. But wait! We're also stuck at size 1 for nine more turns, at one shield and one gold lost per turn compared to what we would have had. :( We may be destined to lose anyway, so it may not matter, but we can't afford big mistakes.

Letting the temple finish, then whipping the barracks for a gain of 34 shields and leaving us size 1 for less time, would have gone much farther much faster toward your goal of improving our military situation. Even if you thought the temple was the wrong priority, you could have switched to a spear then whipped the barracks. If it had even crossed my mind that you MIGHT whip the temple, I would have done anything -- anything -- else besides hand off a half-completed temple.

Any number of strategies, priorities and approaches might work for this game, and things I might do could well be losing moves... I don't mind being vetoed (generally) on things I hand off to the next player. All part of the process. But it took Heliopolis's entire production on my turn to get as far as it did on that temple. Now I don't know where I stand here, because you didn't just change the course of activity there, but vetoed the whole scheme and discarded a whole turn's progress at that city to switch to another plan.

And I'm too wound up about it. :crazyeyes Maybe a deity game isn't the best place for players to try to learn how to integrate as a team. I'm going to sit back now and wait and see how it goes.

I have good things to say about the rest of the turn, but nothing urgent, and I need to grab something to eat and get back to playing RBD5. Good luck to the next leader.

- Sirian

I agree you are (were) too wound up about it - but that's beside the fact ;). It a new day, right?

I agree that in hindsight it might have been a bad idea - but it wasn't because I'm intentionally trying to step on your crank Sirian. I'm not vetoing the plan (was a plan even laid out other than the GL?) and honestly, given your frequent posting on this website you're probably ten times the civ player I am.

Quite simply, I've not watched many succession games and I've only been involved in one other, and suffice it to say, I'm not completely familiar with all the nuances of handing off the turn. I thought the 10 culture was more important and that in the interest of infrasturucture, population would be controlled with worker/settler production (for the 40 turns). I know we don't all think alike, and you might be right. Team meshing will have to be on the fly (tough especially at this level).

We'll deal with it and I'll take the blame if we lose. :)

Fair enough. :) It could be irrelevant to the final outcome anyway, as the results would have to be pretty close for even 4% differential (just a guess) to tip the scales.

We're quite vulnerable, and if the AI's start munching on us before we can defend ourselves, it's over. The question is how far we can push our growth curve before we stop to mass troops. It seems to me that more risk is in order, and Arathorn's first turn pretty much agreed. We had no troops at all in our cities when I inherited my turn: he built several warriors and sent them scrambling out to grab as many goody huts as he could, and try to make contact soon enough to broker some deals. That was very effective, a total push toward "if we can't get some edge going, it won't matter anyway".

If we stop our own expansion too late, we'll lose to an attack. But if we stop too soon, we'll lose anyway, as we won't have the production power to survive. Previous patches, the penalties for whipping were low and you could whip a town several times, then see all the penalties fade away by the time governments changed. No more. Now the penalties last and last, so you can not whip as much, or else you cripple the city and undo the gains made from the whipping anyway.


Who's up next? Jaffa?


- Sirian

Yes, Jaffa is next up. His 10 turns should see:

- Completion of Literature (in 2 turns, by my count)
- Completion of the Great Library (400 shields, just like the Lighthouse)
- A massive influx of technology
- Probable zero research from us

I've not actually opened up the save game, but I would think some priorities would be:

- Obviously, the above.... :)
- A temple in Thebes to help with happiness
- A military presence (should be able to build some better units after tech cascade) [I would recommend war chariots, for a few reasons. One, I think/hope we have horses -- we have a lot of horse-type lands at least. I'm doubtful about iron. Two, a UU rates pretty highly in the AIs determination to attack program (I think). Three, a GA during a war might be just enough to keep us from being overrun. Four, they upgrade to knights, which is where we'll be going for sure. Five, they're cheap enough to crank out a lot of them for the infamous AI "unit count" algorithm.]
- Another luxury (or two) online
- this could be Charis' idea with the furs (although we're almost assuredly behind in culture and would struggle in the culture border wars)
- I seem to recall some dyes or silks up northeast of Heliopolis, which might work as well or better. I might even make this a priority, to seal off our little peninsula over there (too late?) for another, lower priority city.
- Colussus decision in Thebes. It might be weed to go after it, but getting it could be a big boost once we have to start doing our own research....<Shrug>

Some other thoughts....

I'm a bit disappointed no one else bought a worker. Were they not available? Not checked for? Pop points are important and we have so few. Workers are cheap for ~27 gold.... And honestly, what else are we going to be spending our gold on right now?

Ten turns is short, especially in the ancient age. The idea is to play slowly and not make mistakes (like whipping the temple was. But I don't want to whip you over it. I certainly don't think it's fatal, in and of itself).

That was very effective, a total push toward "if we can't get some edge going, it won't matter anyway".
Absolutely my thoughts. I think we do have a bit of an edge right now, though, with the Great Library to be ours. That's huge. But, once the available land is consumed, if not earlier, we will be attacked. Hopefully, it will be ONE of America/Germany. If so, I highly recommend selling our first-born for an alliance with the other. With help, we can hold our own soon, I hope. We're getting close to that change-over from rabid expansionism to defense/infrastructure (timing might be important). Six or so cities run by a human on a small map should be able to compete against a dozen or so AI cities, even on deity.

You are worried about Germany and America as neighbors? If we had Xerxes and Shaka, I doubt we would have lasted my turn, let alone be in this position. I'm quite serious.

I'm with Sirian, though, that this is a nerve-wracking business. And, Toecheese, we *ALL* have things to learn. I just try to learn them and go on.

I definitely think we're still in a position to win this thing, though. For 60 turns in, we're not doing quite well, in my opinion.

No barbarian hordes yet? Excellent. Whenever I've played ravaging myself on deity, I've always been thumped at least once by a stack of 25 horsemen (btw, leaving that city defenseless (whipping if pop>1 and you have time) and "loaning gold" (giving 58 gold for 3 gpt) is a good tactic if such arises).

Arathorn

P.S. Jaffa, awaiting your "I got it."

Some points:

Lighthouse was reduced to 300 shields, so we are farther from the GL than you are estimating. I still think we have a good shot at the Lighthouse, too, though. The AI is infamous for trying to build it in crappy little towns.

Definitely want the chariots! I thought that was the main reason you picked Egypt? They are probably one of the best civs for surviving a grueling ancient age. Horsies @ 20 shields per, in effect, save that they can't cross swamp/mountains.

Charis knows well by now all about border aggressions. I showed the whole crew how to bully an AI colony back in RBD1. City flips have many factors involved, the main two of which are foreign nationals and border pressure. However, between cities close to one another competing for control of territory, it's all about the individual culture levels of those particular cities. Charis KNOWS he can secure the fur for us by making sure we have temple/library sooner than the AI will build them. That would also put enormous pressure on the enemy city and flip it to us sooner or later.

There are "rings" of control around each city, based on the Influence numbers listed under F5. A tile that would fall in the first ring can only be taken away by an enemy city if it's also in the first enemy ring. This would be the case at the furs. However, if our city was farther away, and the fur would come in our second ring, but their first, then control of it would never come over to us. You follow that? If you ever want to pressure enemy cities to make them flip, you have to found close enough to them to force second-ring overlap, then win the city-to-city cultural competition. For more pressure, first-ring overlap, but that also means founding practically right on top of them. See the easy/early flips of Syracuse and New Bombay in RBD3 for how this works.

For control of resources on Emperor+ I have no hesitation about running right up to the enemy with aggressive settlements. It's basically making a "disposable half-city" but resources are worth a ton and this is the best way when you can't afford war. In real life, it would probably provoke a war, but this is only a game. :) The larger the map, the less painful it is to make such a move, but even on a small map it may be worth it. Tiny... you have to choose every city wisely on a tiny map. Not sure I'd do it there, probably better just to conquer the enemy city.

And you're right about Shaka. He's coming, if you draw him as a neighbor. Xerxes not quite as much. He waits until he has an immortal army, and occasionally that takes him a while. He's also neither militaristic nor maximally aggressive. What makes him so darn dangerous is that he is the most likly civ of them all to build the Pyramids, and once you put those in his hands, he's going to outproduce all the other AI's, unless his land just plain sucks. Bismarck, actually, is a worse threat. He starts with both spear and archer, is militaristic, loves to build offensive units like Shaka (not QUITE as much, but close) and is also set to max aggression. Look what happened to poor Betty! :lol: The other one you don't want near you is Monty.


- Sirian

Will play tonight...

Shoot! You're right about the cheaper lighthouse. Mea culpa. I get these numbers in my head and they just stay there. An extra 100 shields in Thebes should be ~11 turns, right? Either Charis or I get to complete it, then.

And, yes, part of the reason I picked Egypt was for war chariots. I was expecting a much earlier war, as that's how I've caught up on techs before. But with such a lush land around us, I changed tacts almost before I'd begun....

A tile that would fall in the first ring can only be taken away by an enemy city if it's also in the first enemy ring.

Are you sure of that? I'm 95% certain I've seen otherwise. That is, I've seen a second ring take control of another city's first ring. If I were at home and could check save files, I think I could even find such an example in a save file for your perusal. But since I can't verify, I can't be certain.

I also read a few times on the Apolyton strategy forum that total civ culture has an influence on cultural borders. Again, I seem to recall gaining extra space without a cultural growth (but, as you say, the bigger influence number might have switched).

I agree that getting the furs is worth a city and a rushed temple, if we can do it. If we try and fail, though.... It'll be a very hurtful move. I trust you, and, of course, it's not my decision to make!

Arathorn

P.S. I'm gonna try to keep the first post updated with who's playing and who's on deck. No promises (especially on weekends), but I'm gonna try.

Originally posted by Sirian
The temple whipping at Helio was a very poor decision. :smoke: The temple was due in just six turns, so you bought 15 shields for 40 (40!) turns of penalty and 10 culture. But wait! We're also stuck at size 1 for nine more turns, at one shield and one gold lost per turn compared to what we would have had. :( We may be destined to lose anyway, so it may not matter, but we can't afford big mistakes.

Letting the temple finish, then whipping the barracks for a gain of 34 shields and leaving us size 1 for less time, would have gone much farther much faster toward your goal of improving our military situation. Even if you thought the temple was the wrong priority, you could have switched to a spear then whipped the barracks. If it had even crossed my mind that you MIGHT whip the temple, I would have done anything -- anything -- else besides hand off a half-completed temple.

I'm also watching this game, and this is one (er, 2) thing(s) that I have problems with (understanding how they work). Whipping (poprushing - I still don't quite get the pre-1.17f pop rush, and the 1.17f loophole :confused: ), and micromanagement. (Had I joined, we would've lost by now...) I can play fine on Cheiftain and Warlord, and possibly Regeant. I tried my my hand at that Monarch GOTM and got summarialy whipped in a 500 year defensive battle. :) (up to 70 AD).

So, does whipping have different effects in different difficulties? (I just tried it in Cheiftain mode, and my culture still stayed the same - it didn't even go down 10 turns. And what does "40 turns of penalty" mean? Unhappiness/content"ness" for 40 turns? And why one gold? Becuase you lost that extra square of commerce? (BTW, when I build my road systems, it seems like it takes 2-4 commerce to equal +1 gold)... I really need a micromanaging and whipping FAQ. :) I just don't see how whipping a temple is a big mistake... Maybe I'm destined to be stuck on Cheiftain. :crazyeyes (10 years so far...)

- Disregard -

Ten more turns in which we didn't get attacked! Yay!

0) 1550BC I decided our military was a bit thin. ("Thin? We'd crumple if Bismarck sneezed in this direction!"). Switched Heliopolis over to building a barracks. Some spearmen would be nice, sometime in the next millenium.

1) 1525BC New worker from Elephantine sent to irrigate the grassland-wheat tiles. (".. mutter .. mutter .. pungent weed .. mutter ..")

2) 1500BC Egypt hears about a 'Great Wall' constructed by the Germans in Berlin. ("A wall? What's so great about a wall?" "I've heard it's really thick. And long." "Well, yes .. umm .. hang on .. weren't we talking about a wall?")

4) 1450BC Pharaoh's pet architect draws up yet another new set of plans for the project under construction in Thebes. ("I heard it's going to be a library." "A library? Thousands of years we've worked on this, and all we get is some stupid library? No doubt they'll call it a 'Great Library' or something equally trite, and expect us all to be impressed. Bah!")

7) 1375BC Alexandria founded next to Houston's furs. Borders remain unmoved. ("Hah. That was pointless! I'm never voting for this Pharaoh again!" "Vote? You got to vote?")

Alexandria set to build a warrior (after which it will have grown, and can whip a temple).

10) 1300BC Americans have founded Buffalo on the little peninsula south of Memphis. Isn't that an illegal site according to Sirian's rules of AI settlement?

So, does whipping have different effects in different difficulties? (I just tried it in Cheiftain mode, and my culture still stayed the same - it didn't even go down 10 turns. And what does "40 turns of penalty" mean? Unhappiness/content"ness" for 40 turns? And why one gold? Becuase you lost that extra square of commerce? (BTW, when I build my road systems, it seems like it takes 2-4 commerce to equal +1 gold)... I really need a micromanaging and whipping FAQ. I just don't see how whipping a temple is a big mistake...

Whipping is the same on every difficulty. On Chieftain, the AI's take LONGER to build the same things you do. Like... takes you 120 shields for a collesseum, for them it takes even more. On Regent, it's fair, they play under same rules as you. Above that, they build in shorter time, and on Deity, they build almost twice as fast as the player. They need only 72 shields to build a collesseum on deity while you still need 120.

The penalty for whipping is one added unhappiness factor to your city total, and it lasts for 40 turns. Ah, but if you whip twice, that's two unhappiness and both last 80 turns. Thus, if whip again before the previous penalties expire, the penalty is magnified. Used to be that you could whip one city three or four times early in the game and the penalties would fade away by the time you change governments or grow large enough for it to matter. No more, the new penalties are harsher, allowing for fewer whippings, or else crippled cities.

Yes, one gold because the extra square of commerce was lost. In a city right next to our capital, corruption is low and almost every commerce becomes a gold or a science beaker. We lost a shield per turn for the same reason.

Whipping a temple is not necessarily a mistake, in fact, at times, it's absolutely the best thing to do. But how much "real value" is gained from a whipping, vs how much it costs in lost production from lower population and from the penalty, is the question to be asked in determining "Is it worth doing". The closer a city is to your capital, the less likely that a whipping will be worthwhile. Distant cities with no hope of more than one shield progress per turn are the best sites for forced labor, as they'll take forever to get anything done otherwise. By contrast, any city that can produce three shields per turn, or more, all on its own, is not a good candidate for the whip. Maybe once, but not on a project due to finish on its own in just a few turns.

In this case, the temple had 12 shields built up already, and was due in 6 turns at 3 shields per turn. So he bought 15 shields and a temple five turns sooner, for a penalty and what will quickly become more lost production than he saved. The problem is that he didn't get enough out of the whipping, and with only so many whippings possible at each city in this current patch, before the city would be rendered useless, that's something else we can't whip there. So looking at the whole picture, he bought us 15 shields and five rounds of culture at 2 per turn (ten total). If he then starts on barracks, he's due to finish it after about 15 turns, meaning that it takes 17 total turns to get temple and barracks. If he had waited the five turns, he could instead have let the temple finish building, then whipped the barracks. He would then have a temple and a barracks after 8 turns. Do you see the difference there? Impatience with the whip slowed us down by at least seven turns.

Now even that MIGHT have been worth it, if an attack was imminent, and the priority he changed us to of immediate use. Turns out it wasn't, and so that city's whole growth curve has been slowed. These are the sorts of details you have to pay attention to, and stop to think about, in plotting strategy for the highest difficulty levels. To a lesser degree, it is also what you need to beat the game in general, just that the more efficient you are with the growth curve, and the more successful with managing risk taking to seize advantages, the higher level you can play at. It takes energy to invest, takes practice and some dedication, like any activity, in order to excel. I'm sure you could do it if you set your mind to it, but it is just a game and there to enjoy. The reason they have varied difficulty levels is so that each player can find the challenge levels that entertain them. Right? :)

Thanks for stopping in. I'll be watching your jungle game from time to time to see how it's going. :)


- Sirian

Jaffa: yep, that spot is one I have pegged as illegal for them, at least with a player's city. I've seen them do that with their own cities on occasion, but not with a player city. I wonder if that's something changed in the latest patch? Or perhaps there is some variable, like a resource to appear there? If there are horses out there, that might explain it.

Well, in this instance, it's just another city of theirs to flip to us, so heh, probably a good thing. :) We need to get some temples going SOON, though, or we'll fall behind on culture. Even if we have to whip (just not mid-production).

- Sirian

We're not dead yet!! yay! :hammer:

The borders are not unexpected. When you whip that temple in
Alexandria (the turn following when we get the warrior, to be precise) the furs WILL move into our border unless Houston gets their temple in first. Likewise, the very best thing we could do at Memphis is get a temple asap. To get the whale Buffalo just might get smart and build a temple sooner rather than later.
After the settler is out I imagine. Is that eastern warrior of
our extra enough that we could plant him on the mountain
or silks and deny access to that penninsula?

I think the next city we settle with that settler in production will be our last for sometime. If we don't nail closed the shutters we're gonna get just run over. The Great Lib will help us make it through this rough time if we're not immediately attacked.

Charis

Hey!! Can I nominate myself for an early weed award. Here I am making comments for the next leader, and I check order and see it's.... me! If you guys could, PLEASE start/continue pasting roster at the very end with who is up and who on deck?! Thanks!

Looking over our little map, we need to claim land, and claim it
now. This may override the temple needs, unfortunately, we'll see.
Lookin' forward to Great Library coming in.

1300 BC (0) - Too bad Elephantine doesn't have more shields, and loses one
to corruption so quick! It has good food but will take forever to build
a settler 8-\ Worker there is a good plan. In this reign I plan to seal
off that penninsula and try to get an extra settler out, we'll see.
With no one working on the Great Library I'm going to cut 3-4 turns off
the settler at Memphis by loaning him one shield.

1275 BC (1) - Americans start the library. Too late Abe!! :P
Warrior in the east heads for the mountains. American settler and escort
above Helio...

1225 BC (3) - The AI gets smart????!!!! Houston has expanded borders, meaning
it finished a temple 10 turns ago, meaning it started it upon founding!
Wow! We'll need temple AND library there to beat it, and only if he delays
library.

1200 BC (4) - Our warrior wins the footrace to the mountains, sealing off
the penninsula. (That is, unless they settle right ON the spice).

Americans settle Detroit, once again almost on top of us, 4 squares due
NE of Helio. The English start Great Library.

1150 BC (6) - Here comes another settler pair, sheesh. We casually step in
the way, slowing him down a turn (or more if we can), hoping we can hurry
up and get that settler to beat him to the only spot left near Thebes! :hammer:

1125 BC (7) - Yeehaw! Timing was correct on Memphis!! City last turn showed
growing in 1 turn, settler built in 2. But I denied that city the Northern
wheat and knew (hoped?) it would thus get the ONE more shield it needed to
finish the settler right that very turn. That one shield gives us a one
turn shave and takes the heat off that American settler. Then again, our
warrior is doing a nice job doing the "Baltimore" block :P

1100 BC (8) - Pi-Ramesses is founded, two squares from Detroit. A definite
culture press cat-n-mouse game about to form. Speaking of culture, Alexandria
whips its temple and may do similar for library soon. (Hrmm... 80 shields?
That's a double whip done correctly? Ouch)

1075 BC (9) - A cautious Abe 'requests' a contribution to world peace,
our territory map and 31 gold !!?? :grr:

Do we cave in to this extortion!!??? Darn tootin' we do!! A mere pinky
flex of American might would send us into the blackness of night. And yet,
Abe, we'll remember this. My friend, you have chosen unwisely!!!! :eek:
(Did I mention he had a warrior not far from a worker and an undefended
city at the time?!) We trade world maps around. Did he know he could have
asked for double? Or will he be back soon?

1050 BC (10) - English are building Colossus. Elephantine whips it temple.

1025 BC (11) - That American warrior fends a barbarian off our workers??!
Abe!! I didn't know you cared! Gentlemen, may I present to you, in Thebes...

THE GREAT LIBRARY! :hammer: (Good job)

Colossus would only be 20 turns for us! I started the temple, taking 3,
but consider if we want to swap. (Hmm Enlgish start or cascade to Colossus,
and also start Great Lighthouse)

1000 BC (12) - Americans are building Hanging Gardens. Gentlemen, may I present...

The Wheel. Iron Working. Mysticism. Mathematics. Philosophy. Code of Laws.
Horseback Riding. Polytheism. Currency. Republic. Construction.
Monotheism (our free 'Sci' tech) That's 12 techs in one mid-turn.

(Note, there are horses RIGHT next to Thebes, and Iron right UNDER Helio)
(Wow, Helio is going to be a powerhouse city.)

Gentlemen. We're now a republic. We're in the middle ages.
The game's afoot!! :hammer:

The people of Thebes will get over the rough but quick shock by
next turn. Anything else to note? A Barb camp below our mountain man.
If a settler appears to the North, step *ON* to the silk, don't let them
settle there, it's too nice a "canal" city. If OTOH you can get a settler
up there... There's a minor warrior shuffle midprogress down South to
get a defender to Pi-Ram. Thebes has one defender, get him a spear or
sword soon. The two warriors to the right are 'mobile blockade', able
to cut off either North-South or east-west passage. Get one more warrior
and they won't have to shift.

We're running 0% sci, 20% lux, gaining 12 gold per turn. 13 units support.
Take a look at the new diplo and tech and brokering situation. It's too
much of a jump to middle ages to even fathom!?

Good luck!
Charis

PS Pardon going over by two turns, didn't want to hand off leaping into
anarchy or fumble the transition.

Or close enough for the time being. I don't mind at all being third civ to get a tech. WOOHOO!:goodjob:

About the only way I'd be happier is if Charis actually let me see it complete. Going over turns.... :splat: :spank:

This is also serving as my "got it" post. 10 turns to do basically everything. We need more military, more workers, culture to put the pressure on, warrior dance to keep the AI civs out of our space, found another city or two (haven't seen the map but judging by where we were....).

I just hope we can prevent a smoke-and-mirrors war for a few more turns yet. It's coming...and probably against America.

Ideal world: Germany declares war on America and we help just a bit. Get Detroit and Houston, plus maybe one more towards the middle of our continent before peace.

I will hopefully play tonight, but no guarantees.

Arathorn

Toe had only played 8 turns on his go. If he had played the full 10, the wonder would have been due on Charis's turn anyway, so he was sorta "due". I would probably have done the same. :)

- Sirian

*thwap* I'll be damned - I did play only eight.

Quite possibly my worst turn of civ ever - :smoke:

Maybe your wife had you a little distracted? :p

I decided to try my hand at my own solo game of Deity, see what I could do. I've been avoiding it... stuck a toe in the water a couple times ( :eek: No pun intended. :p ) but never really got my feet wet. Well they're wet now, and my first genuine attempt has seen me into the industrial age, and all but guaranteed not to come in in last place. :) Catherine was in her usual form and started a war she couldn't handle with the Iro's. Oopsie. :lol:

- Sirian

I couldn't really be mad at Charis...could I? Nah, I understand the desire to see things through...and it's often smarter not to pass off mid-stream.

Sirian, unless all those French units are coming after you, you've got it pretty well won. As you've noted, if the human gets to railroads, the ability to focus troops on one spot is devastating. It's still not 100%, as a truly united set of AIs could still outproduce you so far as to crush you, but....

My deity experiences:
- a few wins by conquering the Great Library
- one win by leadering the library (and about 6 other wonders)
- a couple dozen losses early in the ancient age

Other than being pretty nerve-wracking, I'm pretty happy with the direction this game is going. I just hope those don't become famous last words.

Arathorn

Joanie's not after me, no. But look at what I'm building! I've got spears and warriors and horsemen... and still building granaries and courthouses, while the AI's wage war with knights and cavalry across my lands like I was beneath their notice. :) It's far from won.

I didn't build any wonders, didn't try for any. The Great Library is NOT a must-get, as buying in at last-civ prices once you make full world contact is cheap. But it's all smoke and mirrors as yet, if I got attacked, I'd need allies or it would be a massacre.

Have you tried a large map yet?


- Sirian

I never said it was an absolute "must get" (I really don't think there are any, except maybe the UN), it just really really helps. But you've made it through the required MA advances, as evidenced by your "researching" Steam Power. That doesn't mean you have anything better than musketmen as potential units, but it does mean you've almost hit the cut-off point which should guarantee victory -- railroads.

Last-civ prices are very do-able, if you can avoid being crushed in the ancient age. Markets and temples and such work wonders. A nearly-completed FP in a good location (a little late, IMO, but....) is another human advantage.

I didn't look closely at the map. Do you really have no iron? No saltpeter? Still, riflemen are close -- probably available from somebody. I'd give you a 98% chance of winning. Smoke and mirrors (and burnt earth policy when necessary) until RRs? No MAJOR worries, IMO.

No, I've not done a large map on deity yet. I find micromanagement a bit tedious and with a ton of cities, I'm just not that interested. Plus, the number of workers and units? Not my cup of tea, really. I usually do standard maps, rest random. I'll probably try a huge deity map at some point, just to do so, but not until I've done a ton of other things.

Now, seeing riflemen when you're still in the ancient ages, that's scary!

Let me know how it turns out (no news on my 20,000 city deity try yet),
Arathorn

Originally posted by Sirian
Maybe your wife had you a little distracted? :p
Are we still talking about the curtains? ;)

Love the photo of the Deity game Sirian - absolutely priceless deity photo of the lone warrior guarding New Konigsberg while being surrounded by the 1st through, oh, 595th French mounted divisions :lol: Guess that's par for the course, though.

Looks good to me, too. Maybe an alliance if attacked, get the RR online and you're in business. :goodjob: And, panzers won't hurt either. Golden Age to look forward to, too.

In the year 1000 BC, Cleopatra tired of Charis, claiming he'd overstayed his welcome. Arathorn quietly slipped back into her good graces (and her bedroom). This gave him an uncomfortable amount of control over the lands of Egypt. Well, uncomfortable for the Americans and Germans, anyway.

(0) 1000 - No changes. In the Great Library, our alchemists find scrolls detailing the methods of Monarchy. The advisor who suggested we revolt was summarily asped.

(1) 975 - Arathorn orders the warrior shuffle, not only a new dance movement sweeping the nation, but an effort to get into position to remove the Etruscan barbarians from near Elephantine. Some cities left defenseless again. Tensions mount. Pi-Rameses rushes its temple to put pressure on the Americans. It then begins a barracks. One regular warrior attacks a conscript Etruscan, dying messily to an axe blow. Animators fired. The Germans begin the Hanging Gardens.

(2) 950 - Detroit's border pushed back by Pi-Rameses' amazing culture! German settlers seen near NE silk. A worker is sent to frighten them off. Heliolopis finishes sword and begins a spear (7 shields has less waste at 20 than at 30...turns out it didn't matter, but the principle is sound). In the off-turn, the Germans show their cowardly nature and retreat from the wrath of the might worker.

(3) 925 - Feeling giraffe-like (sticking my neck out), Arathorn orders the treasury emptied. Settlers are rushed in both Elephantine (92 gold) and Memphis (88 gold). The great "Silk Rush" is on. The barbs must be defeated. A few other things must be done. It's a gambit, but a risk I wanted to take. Thebes completes a temple and begins .... Ummm.... Marketplace for gold? Library for later research? Harbor? Try to snag Colossus? Great Lighthouse? Arathorn tentatively picks marketplace, expecting a veto stamp.

Over by the Etruscan camp, it is noted that they have two warriors in camp, the Americans have a warrior right by it and we can only attack with one warrior this turn. We dance around and get three in position to attack next turn, hoping the Americans will eliminate one defender, making our job easier.

The Germans start Sun Tzu's. The Americans are streaming settler/spearmen pairs across our territory. Cleopatra grumbles about this, but the generals note that the average American garrison is probably larger than our whole army. Arathorn mentions a shower and she is placated.

(4) 900 - The Americans obliged, killing one warrior in the Etruscan camp. The first Egyptian warrior attacks the defending horse...and dies. The second attacks...and is victorious! Looted items worth 25 gold are found and returned to Thebes. Settlers race north, hoping against reason to win the "Silk Race". Workers will not have roads prepared in time for the second city, but work is being done anyway.

Elephantine and Memphis change from settlers to spearmen, as that only makes sense. War chariots would be nice, but the horses are still offline. That's another thing I mean to change. Feudalism pops out of the library, injuring three, one seriously.

(5) 875 - Hmm...pikemen @ 30 shields or swordsmen @ 30 shields? Sword. Heliolopis changes to sword, minorly cringing at the thought of losing 5 shields at the end. Germany begins Sistine Chapel. German settler/horseman pair seen near Detroit, sure to cross our lands. First settler in position, not-so-coincidentally gonna provide an extra road to shave one turn off the foundation of the silk city.

(6) 850 - Giza founded. Temple ordered. Americans swarm over our land. Arathorn seen nervously counting troops -- we have more troops than they have in our lands, but just barely.

In the off-turn, the Forbidden Palace is requested. The French city of Rheims finishes the Colossus, ending weedy dreams of building it in Thebes.

(7) 825 - Horses come online! English building Lighthouse. The Americans enter the Sistine Chapel race. Heliolopis finishes sword and begins to build a beloved war chariot (20 shields, so 3 turns with one shield wasted).

(8) 800 - Thebes' marketplace vetoed. Harbor ordered. Still expecting a later veto. Memphis switches to temple to grow its borders. MMOW.

We can trade with the Americans now, but they want way too much for their gems and their silks (which we will have soon ourselves).

(9) 775 - The great "Silk Race" ends with the founding of Byblos, directly on top of the silks. A hopelessly corrupt colony, it at least will provide some luxury for the rest of the empire, once some roads are completed. It begins a temple. MMOW.

(10) 750 - MMOW. Swords move, trying to slow American settlers passing through our lands. I'd love to order them to leave but the inevitable war and crushing we would take stays my hand.

At this point, Cleopatra pushes Arathorn out the door, screaming something about "Stay out until you learn something new!"

Arathorn

Watch the Elephantine/Pi-Rameses/Memphis overlap sharing of tiles. There are some relatively good tiles there that all three want and can reach. A firm hand is needed to keep 'em in line.

We have basically zero chance for wonders at this point, as the American cities are huge AND have high-shield areas (hills/mountains).

Either Berlin or Washington would be a nice FP location.

Whither India? I've seen/heard nothing of them. Only knowledge of France is that they built Colossus.

A cathedral in Alexandria instead of a library? Same culture but cathedral might actually be cheaper. Still outside purchase range on my turns, though.

Expansion is probably just about finished.

I think America/Germany are headed for the one little spur of forest on the desert strip by Elephantine/Giza. I'd block that square, if I had a unit to spare.

Workers up near Byblos need to connect and then probably return to more productive land areas.

4 workers and 8 cities? Bad ratio, IMO.

Our military still sucks bigtime.

At least England is worse off than we are. We might be able to use that to our advantage in a war against Germany. The AI *usually* sends its offense against the weakest foe. If England looks weaker than us and we are both at war with Germany, odds are England would feel the brunt of Bismarck's forces, which might leave us the opening we need. Something to keep in mind.

Arathorn

I've seen the Americans streaming settlers!!! There's a very simple and very effective solution! And it was brought on by ourselves...

*MUST* plug up the southern entrance to the Silk penninsula -- two squares do it! The warriors you sent up north were holding their fingers in the dyke and if I read correctly they've moved. Get someone, anyone, there to stand in two tiles to completely block access. I would bet that (like before) the Americans turn right around.

Swords move, trying to slow American settlers passing through our lands. I'd love to order them to leave but the inevitable war and crushing we would take stays my hand.

They're not looking for war but for a piece of that penninsula! Must... seal... If you need to move a 'second' garrison unit there do it even if you have to make a temporary specialist. If you can ecnomically rush a unit, any unit and beat them there, do it. Good job walking in front to delay their arrival, keep it up. (Just don't order them out, hehe, would that be carnage or what?)

On a bright note... I liked your turn! Burning the treasury and throwing all to the wind to settle lands that need settled NOW... it has a familar ring to it. Well, it also is in harmony with the double-ended seal of the penninsula I started.

Charis

One warrior, who I think is still near, should be able to do a moving seal, to keep them out. Sirian, that might need attention ASAP.

OTOH, the Americans are already on that peninsula and if they want to build one more city for us, who am I to protest? It'll be hopelessly corrupt for them, and it might be good to have another "easy" city to take, if/when we go to war. If we can take/raze a few cities of theirs, peace might come a bit faster.

I needed those warriors to get the Etruscans, though, else the settlers would never have made it to get the silk. Two luxuries now. One more hopefully in the near future. And a fourth (spices) if/when we take a couple German cities. Those American gems will just have to wait.

Oh, another note, I don't think I sold our excess luxury. Might well be worth doing.

Glad you liked the turn report. I try to put a bit of feeling into them, as a stress reliever for me.

Arathorn

> OTOH, the Americans are already on that peninsula and if they
> want to build one more city for us, who am I to protest? It'll be
> hopelessly corrupt for them, and it might be good to have

True, but... that one city can be shut off totally with two warriors, one of which is already in place to shut off the penninsula. They're like a weed. If they found one, they'll found two, then instead of being part of our continuous network, Spice town is toast, surrounded, corrupt, no supply line for spices to get back home! :P

> I needed those warriors to get the Etruscans, though, else the
> settlers would never have made it to get the silk.
Roger that! I was glad to hand the game over and let the next guy deal with it. Good call (i think!)

> Glad you liked the turn report. I try to put a bit of feeling into
> them, as a stress reliever for me.

:goodjob:
Charis

IT 750BC: Yes, I did veto the harbor. Didn't think I would at first, I wanted to trade our incense to somebody! However, Germany did not have a harbor yet, still doesn't, America wasn't interested in our incense, and Liz is too poor. :( So I thought, yes, the cathedral would be best! But then I looked and saw no granaries. (Deju vu? Heh :) ).

The cathedral will be more useful than a library, same culture, slightly higher maintenance but same shield cost. I swapped our Fur town to cathedral.

Markets would be really really nice, but ya know... having 1.5x the population has the same effect on the cash flow, and also speeds production. Granaries got dialed up in every core city. Thebes was set to finish theirs next turn, so MM'd their food and set things up to add more irrigation. We should be able to get to the coveted 10 shields per turn, I think. With corruption happening even in our capital, we are pushing the limits of city count before hitting diminishing returns, and we need courthouses! Wow, lots to do, but first, the granaries.

Because most of all, we need larger cities.

Not much happened.

* Thebes finished Granary, then Cathedral. Now up to 10 shields per turn and growing larger, with enough happiness to support the full monty: size 12! And that's without market, the fur, or colleseum, just the current rate of luxuries.

* I did allow the war chariot to finish at Helio, then built its granary and started it on cathedral. If the AI's come soon, it's hopeless anyway. If we get some infrastructure in place, larger happier cities, we can start cranking units if desired and be further ahead.

Everything about deity is give or take. The more you gambit, the more the rewards, so long as the house of cards doesn't tumble. Postponing military to build infrastructure will lead to MORE military, after X number of years, because of higher production overcoming the later start. The question is, what value for X can be sustained? That's the judgement aspect, and it can go wrong even with good information or reasonable risktaking. I believe in this case, as Thebes will already show, having that granary and cathedral in place, it's now set to pump military units quickly if desired. Toe could build barracks and produce three vet chariots on his turn in that one city, if he wants.

Helio could be set to build troops right now, but I think it will be better to get its cathedral, and then start the troop training while the city grows and grows (try to keep at least 4 food per turn surplus, once there are some more irrigations).

Yet the AI's are also still growing/producing/maturing, and I don't wonder if in the absence of poprush loophole, if "waiting for enough military to strike" isn't rather like waiting for Gedot. There is something to be said for seizing the day, but we made the wonder our top priority, rather than expansion or military, and that set the course of our destiny.

* Engineering and Education popped out of the library and that ended that. :( That was like almost immediately. America has Invention and Astronomy at the end of my turn.

* I ran zero science the whole way. We're already way out of our league, still trying to catch up on making use of POTTERY and THE WHEEL, what are we going to do with BANKING? Nothing, for a while at least. So I say sit back, wait, the other two civs will come along soon (buy contact with them ASAP) and we can catch up on techs then, for cheaper.

* Memphis spent the whole turn finishing its temple, then producing workers. Left it doing that.

* I did block the two tiles the AI has as "potential settlement sites". As Jaffa noted, they are now settling any tile 3 rows away from cities. We have a warrior sitting on one of them, and a worker improving the other. If either unit moves without being replaced, the AI's will plop down over there.

* Rushed the cathedral at fur town with 6 turns left. I figured the 15 culture might be worth 90 gold if it brings those furs to us. Rather than build granary, I started a library. That too may have to be rushed, but I leave that up to others.


We're going to need courthouses and at least one harbor (probably at Thebes). Even Thebes needs a courthouse! It's losing four shields out of fourteen!!! :eek:

The only way we could ever build an FP in Berlin or DC would be with a great leader. Corruption is already eating us alive, any distant cities would be locked in the 1/1 chokehold.

If troops are desired, Thebes/Helio are ready for the call. The others still desperately need more infrastructure, and I don't think any has barracks either.

No need to race Detroit for culture until they prove they have some.

When we get a chance to trade with Germany finally, I urge trading away our only iron (yes!) for loads of tech and money (make sure we get like a bunch of techs, at least two or three and maybe a luxury). Spend the time of no-iron building chariots/horsemen which can upgrade to knights/cav, or building infrastructure. This advice applies as a potential for all players in this game: You can trade away your locally used resources and go without for 20 turns -- sometimes that's a bargain.


- Sirian

I've got it -

Will play and post sometime tonight - before midnight.

Sincerely, Toecheese (who has put the magic 8-ball on a permanent vacation in the closet) :smoke:

*MUST* plug up the southern entrance to the Silk penninsula -- two squares do it!

Helpful, but not good enough. They can sail around. Would take them time and we could respond, but the best response is probably to build one more city. The town below silk town could have shut off the remaining AI Legal Settlement Sites if built one tile to the SE but did not, Arathorn placing priority on the free road. That's done now, and we have three choices:

1) Keep two units standing right on the two tiles where the AI would settle.
2) Build another city over there.
3) Let the AI's build a city.

I'm in favor of 1 until we can manage 2 without emergency action.


- Sirian

Here's the save file - report coming up as soon as I type it.

550B.C. - Toecheese the 2nd ascends to the throne! (er, Cleopatra's bedroom). He discovers Lord Sirian the 2nd lounging in her bed *thwap* begone!

550 to 530B.C. - Memphis finishes worker, another is ordered up. Pi-Ramesses finishes granary, orders cathedral.

530B.C. - Helio worker ordered to chop trees on the valuable river square. Alxeandria worker ordered to the river to irrigate.

530 - 510B.C. - Berlin finishes Hanging Gardens - America building Sistine, Sun Tzu, AND Copernicus(!). Germany building Leonardo.

510B.C. - Worker improvements.

510-490B.C. - Germany building Copernicus.

490B.C. - Worker that's guarding one of the two squares has completed his tasks. Swap a swordsman with the worker and war chariot for the swordsman so the worker can do other things (catch all that?)

490 - 470B.C. - Elizabeth DEMANDS incense!!! (apparently since she's finished smoking all of hers). I tell her to take a walk and she agrees. American settler pair on the move to Buffalo (presumably to get on a ship?) Toecheese decrees the "Memphis Two-Step" for everyone in the vicinity. Curiously enough, no one loses any time (workers or otherwise) going to a new location. Settlers currently blocked off from Buffalo. Thebes finishes Barracks, War Chariots are ordered up.

470B.C. - Thought about a galley in Thebes but decided against it. The movement of the American settler pair had me thinking maybe the Americans had Navagation. Decided to follow Sirian's suggestion on Thebes for the time being.

470 - 450B.C. - Elephantine finishes granary, courthouse ordered up. (4 shield corruption). Our cultural borders have expanded to include the furs!

450B.C. - Luxuries set back to 10%, extra 5gp per turn for us.

430B.C. - Thebes finishes War Chariot - another is ordered up.

430 - 410B.C. - Nottingham (Nottingham?) finishes the Great Lighthouse - Americans cascade to Copernicus and Leonardo.

410B.C. - More worker improvements. Upgraded two warriors to swordsmen.

390B.C. - America and Germany have made contact with France and India. Since American attitude is now "cautious" toward us, I buy contact with Frnace and India from Abe for 90gp. He's back to polite. Joan of Arc has not discovered Monotheism or Engineering? Are they playing at Warlord level? Anyhow - she has no cash either. Contact Ghandi - I offer him engineering for his WM and all of his 10gp. We now know what the world looks like. And - if you can believe this, we're THIRD on the science totem pole (probably not for long).

370B.C. - Alexandria culture expands - we're ahead of Houston. I didn't buy a Library here either - I know Sirian had mentioned leaving it up to the next player. I'll pass the buck again and leave it up to the next player. Switched Alexandria to harbor since Thebes is on military duty and Memphis is one catch-up duty.
Traded 110gp to Abe for Chivalry. We can now upgrade our chariots to knights if the need arises. Changed the science rate to 40% since we're smarter than originally thought - Astronomy in 21 turns.

350B.C. - Worker improvements.

Thoughts - Tried to keep things simple this turn - wanted to focus on military but decided a mix of infrastructure and military was the better course. Upgraded two or three units and replaced one of the two "you will not build cities here" guards with a war chariot. Started sending said warrior to Thebes for an upgrade. Built three war chariots. Most cities are in mid-production of infrastructure improvements.

Decided to buy Chivalry, just in case. At least we now can upgrade if needed and have a bonafide solid middle ages unit.

Really REALLY impressed with Heliopolis - going to be a bread and butter city for us. Could really use the courthouse being built there.

All other cities - feel free to veto if needed. Was torn on Alexandria's Library. Did decide against barracks in other cities for now. Thebes and Heliopolis should be able to cover us militarily.

Long ways to go but I don't think we're doing too bad.

0) 350BC Switched Thebes over to library. Most everything else looks good.

1) 330BC - 270BC American and German settlers wander all over our land.

5) 250BC Heliopolis finishes courthouse, starts settler.

6) 230BC Giza finishes temple. Yay!

Buy Invention from French for Education+WM+20g.

7) 210BC Pi-Ramesses finishes cathedral, starts on aqueduct.

Germans and Americans start on Bach's Cathedral.

War chariot costs 100g to upgrade to knight? Oh, umm, ouch!

8) 190BC Thebes finishes library. Heliopolis finishes settler. We commence operation 'let's flip Detroit'.

9) 170BC Byblos finishes temple. Yay, again :)

Our settler is now in American territory. Umm, what's this? I'm allowed to build a city within the American culture border? It would cause a war, I see -- but I don't remember even being allowed before. Is this new?

Anyway, I wasn't planning to start a war. Settler moves again, into a culture hole between America and Germany...

10) 150BC El-Amarna founded. Town motto, "Detroit or bust!" :D

Picture of El-Amarna:

:egypt:

i think you guys are doing a great job, a whole lot better than i would.:rolleyes: i haven't even considered a deity game, i'm doing a emperor level SG and i wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't an SG. i've been following this game for a while and have been enjoying it. oh something earlier, a city does not have to be "right next" to a city to take it's core squares. i've had one 4 squares awya do it. it took A LOT of culture mind you. just thought i'd clear that one up for ya.

150 BC (0) - Wow, we still have silk town and control of the penninsula??
Nice job! I see a gap above Bylos I would like to fill asap, but otherwise
lookin good. A few minor switches.

130 BC (1) - No library in Alexandria? Almost a crime! :P Starting one...
We are lookin' RATHER sparse on units though. I'm a little surprised
America or Germany isn't a little more aggressive. If/when they do,
we instantly ally with the other though.

110 BC (2) - Pi-Ramses expands, putting even more pressure on Detroit! :hammer:
I think it's toast! washington completes the Sistine 8-\

90 BC (3) - Byblos expands too, pressuring Stuttgart.
Germans cascade to try for Bach, and Americans to try Magellan.
We top off Astronomy for about 20 gold, start Gunpowder due in 9. We do
upgrade ONE War Chariot to Knight to have a new 'top' unit for AI to fear :P

70 BC (4) - Germans start Newtons AND Smiths. (Busy beavers!)
50 BC (5) - Germans not busy enough, start Magellans...
30 BC (6) - No one needs our extra incense so I trade it to England for
Music Theory.
10 AD (8) - We welcome the new millenium!! (Hmmm, and American ship going
up the coast towards Silk-town. I hope they aren't also thinking about filling
in that tiny gap? May have to cut him off with a warrior...

Berlin completes Leo. Leipzig completes Copernicus (sheeeesh!) Americans
switch to Bach and Smith and Magellan. No one else switches.

30 AD (9) - Uh...

Errmm.....

We enter a Golden Age. Not by Choice. :confused:

The follow message appears between turns. "The Americans declared war on us!"
The scum had a troop or two in our territory too. Worker lust?? They snagged
four. In any case, this kinda sucks. It moves it from a *VERY* quiet, things
are progressing smoothly turn to... I'm bleeding from a big hole in my back.

How a Golden Age you ask? After the worker snatch a swordsman attacked
Pi-Rameses, and got pincushioned by our unique War Chariot!! :hammer:
Then the warrior scout by Buffalo takes on a WC and loses :P

Germany comes to talk to us? Cool! An alliance?? Er, no they want to trade
maps and extort our gold. Bizzy, let's talk. Picture the south with the
Americans holding ALL our land. Picture them coming after you next. AH!
You DO see the problem? Want to ally against Abe? No? Too aggressive?
But a mutual protection pact looks good for you. What do you need for that?
Everything we have????? Well, uh... sure, with pleasure!! Map, treas, 10 gpt.
Just for us you'll discount it to 9?? Biz! I didn't know you cared! :love:

Germany declares war on the Americans! :hammer:

Gunpowder must have been discovered, it's 1 gp cost. Bought for world map from
Joan and make her polite. We start Chemistry, achievable in 8, while Banking
can be done in 4. With this war and great need for upgrades, would suggest
zero science and save cash to upgrade WC to Knights.

So... where's the Saltpeter? We have none!! :eek:
Abe has near Washington, Germany near York, England near Nottingham while
they yet live. India in Jaipur (near France) and Karachi. France at Paris.

At our border America has its most old and decrepit forces - warriors,
spears, swords. I expect soon the 'real' ones will come, Knights and
Muskets.

I'm stopping here! It's a move short of ending, but with the war JUST
starting it's best for our next leader to make the plan.
The tech is new and may be changed, the infrastructure projects might need to
become mil units (although I would let the University finish in Thebes).
The settler was on the move to an intended gap-settle spot by Byblos, now stopped.
Pull him back and wait for peace, or send him on as you like.

Your turn isn't over -- I've NOT made any attacks or even pulled our workers inside - if left as they are they will be eaten.

Good luck 8-|
Charis

PS Ah, Arathorn is next... you have an extra turn to take us to 250 AD :P

PPS to Jaffa - yes, I feel *brutalized* tonight!! The good thing is... now others have to suffer as well, we share the pain as well as the glory

Whoo! It's everybody-declare-war-on-Charis night, here at CivFanatics :)

Well... either way, it's going to be Most Glorious. :ninja:

Got it....

(barely within my 24-hour window to claim).

I might take a fair chunk of my 72 to play, too. Since we're at war and we have smoke-and-mirrors, it'll take a while.

Goals: - Defend silk town
- The three cities in "our area" become ours
- Lose nothing else

We'll see how well 10 (or 11) turns does on those goals.

Arathorn

P.S. I had mucho trouble trying to got on earlier today....

After I downloaded, I went to bed. I was laying there almost asleep, when some words of Charis flitted across my mind ... "Mutual Protection Pact..." I literally sat up in bed! (Mrs. A was not so pleased.) That only comes with nationalism! :eek: They're in the Industrial Age! AARRGGGHHH!!!

We're not gonna be fighting with smoke and mirrors. That'd be luxury! We have one guy and two mirrors. He sets them up on either side, so it looks like he's got a lot of army. Smoke would be nice, but we don't even have THAT! Revised priority goals: 1. Survive. 2. Survive. 3. Survive.

========time lapse===================

When I finally got around to playing, a quick survey of our forces showed 17 total units, 13 of which were Ancient Age. At a guess, it was going to be our pikemen and war chariots against their cavalry and riflemen. :cringe: NOT a situation conducive to great success.

And, our Golden Age. Not completely ideal, in that I like doing city improvements during a GA, but we NEED every shield we can get our paws on right now -- for military units.

The turns are taking quite a long time. I'm squeezing every last drop of blood out of every turnip (two turns of low food and 11 shields, then one turn of high food and 8 shields is a pikemen. But it has to be timed right to not conflict with another city needing some of those same tiles -- timewise. MUCH watching.)

We're currently even on the city exchange. I've captured (ummm...shoot, I hate names!) the city on the SE peninsula and Houston (or is it Detroit?) -- the city by the furs. El-Armana has been lost. Detroit flipped to us and then got captured.

On the plus side, I've not actually SEEN any American riflemen or cavalry yet. It's been knights and pikes so far, but I'm sure I'll see muskets soon. It's possible our MPP with Germany was timed perfectly so that they didn't trade Nationalism to America....

We're up to mostly knights (and pikes) at this point. Still slow going. I hope to have a full report tonight, but it might well be tomorrow morning. (This is why I set the time limit to 72 hours!!!) A breakthrough would be fatal, as I've basically stripped all internal cities of all units. Eventually they'll need units to keep bottom-feeders off our back, but right now, every unit counts -- and counts big!

Arathorn

Is this game so uninteresting that no one replies? Am I that boring?

Paranoid,
Arathorn

Everyone is just holding their breath....imagining the struggles and trying to be silent and not break your concentration.

Meldor beat me to it -

Actually Arathorn - we're really hoping you don't louse this up :D

I'm not used to seeing mid-turn reports. Never posted one. Also, while I try to be helpful and work as a team, I also try not to be intrusive about it. Unless you ask for advice in the middle of your turn, I'm not going to comment. So... I'm here awaiting the final outcome of your turn before I have anything to say besides...

How is it going? :)

- Sirian

There was simply a hush that fell over the crowd...

... much like the peace that ensues the arrival of the eye of the hurricane. Bated breath, no sounds, lest we miss the sounds of the oncoming train that is the U S of A :D

I did like the snapping up in bed and Mrs A's reaction though! :lol:

Charis

Once again, Arathorn returned to the palace, trying to woo Cleopatra. "There's a war on, love" he schmoozed. "Why don't you just relax and let me take care of it?" Cleopatra's response is not fit for mixed company, and Arathorn was not seen outside the bedroom again. Rumor has it he was rather tied up.

(0) 30 - We have 4 warriors, 4 sword, 2 pike, 2 knight, 1 catapult, and 4 war chariots. To fight an enemy who is probably in the Industrial Age. Our German allies, though, are also extremely tough and share a large border with America. Kudos to Charis for getting Bismarck on our side ASAP.

OTOH, we are at LEAST 6 (and probably more) techs behind Germany.

Well, there's no time like the present, so we attack Houston with all available forces -- two knights. They both win with one hp left, so the gods must be smiling on us. All turns had MUCHO micromanagement, so take that as read. All cities (except Thebes) changed to military production.

(1) 50 - El-Amarna falls to the Americans -- we lost one pike and a catapult. They lost an elite warrior and had a knight seriously injured. Not good enough.

The earlier efforts of other rulers show their dividends, as Detroit wants no part of Lincoln and his back-stabbing ways (if only they knew....). They defect to the mighty Egyptians. Rumors of Cleopatra campaigning personally (and scantily attired) are loudly and longly decried. The people of Detroit are extremely unhappy, but they do come with a pikeman.

Knights to heal. Other troops move into position to attack next turn -- once we have Buffalo, too, we only have one real front to defend. The action near Silktown is mostly Germany moving toward Baltimore. WHEW!

(2) 70 - Attack Buffalo. The first war chariot attacks, loses three to go to one hit point. It then recovers to sweep the next three to become elite. Another war chariot (retreats) and a swordsman make Buffalo see the Egyptian way as superior. A ship sinks, too.

We buy Navigation from India for WM and 43 gold. No trade with India/France yet, though, as somebody is lacking harbors/trade route.

On Germany's turn, we lose Detroit. Detroit -- we hardly knew you.

(3) 90 - We recapture Detroit. Now there are 4 resistors. I want to take back El-Armana and then slowly turn Detroit into workers/settlers, as the area should really be split between two authentic Egyptian cities. One thing at a time, though.

We kill lots of American units with minimal casualties -- just trying to clean up our space. El-Armana is the next target.

(4) 110 - We recharge our mirrors and upgrade to smoke bombs (errr...chariots -> knights). I'd love some saltpeter, but ....

We watch the Americans and the Germans trade units -- mostly outdated ones.

(5) 130- Nearing El-Armana, we see only a musketman in defense. Maybe America doesn't have Nationalism yet. We lose a knight in the attack, but El-Armana is returned to its Egyptian roots. Cleopatra exults. Arathorn wishes for an update. Start process of removing Detroit (need to have negative food when a settler/worker is produced and the city will disappear -- easiest with settler).

From El-Armana, we are treated to a more impressive display of American/German forces killing each other off.

(6) 150 - WE still have a fair chunk of troops -- on to St. Louis! Umm...oops! It's defended by a conscript riflemen. Veteran knight vs. conscript rifle??? Close enough. We have a semi-horde if need be. ATTACK!!! It's amazingly successful. St. Louis eventually falls -- leaving behind MASSIVE number of revolters.

Arathorn pleads with Cleopatra to stop the attacks. "Rifles will kill our knights. It's time to consolidate." Most cities change from knights to either pikes or marketplaces. Defense/infrastructure time.

Dial up Joan. Banking for WM + 60 gold + 1 gpt? Sure. Ghandi, whatdya got? Chemistry for WM, 9 gpt, and 15 gold. Bingo. We bite.

I also hope the shock of losing St. Louis will hit the Americans hard. I dial up Abe. "You have chosen unwisely, no?" He's not so sure, but is willing to give Metallurgy and Physics for a peace treaty and a mere 13 gpt. I know our rep will suffer when we re-declare war because of the MPP, but I want the techs. I sign the deal.

Off-turn, Germany completes Sun Tzu, attacks America relentlessly. The American counterattack obviously reaches into German soil, as we declare war on America again. No shock there. Massive AI cascade from Sun Tzu. We hope to capture it later.

(7) 170 - Bringing up troops to garrison St. Louis, El-Armana, and our other border city. MMOW. Cleopatra looks greedily at Miami but is refrained by Arathorn.

Liz rings up wanting to exchange territory maps. Sure, babe. Knock yourself out.

(8) 190 - Buy Theory of Gravity from Germany for WM, 12 gpt, 114 gold. I want some semblance of tech parity by the end of my turn. That's 6 techs so far. Still healing and looking greedily at Miami. Settler moving that way.

(9) 210 - Attack Miami with a couple knights, semi-successfully. Attack some more. We lose two knights to take out three rifles and a spear. We then raze the city, knowing we can't defend it. Plus, it had obviously drafted at least twice -- probably three times. I don't need that kind of grief. RRs are getting near and a few extra workers will be helpful.

Joan calls us up offering Economics for 50 gold. We politely decline, knowing our chances of getting Smith's are less than a whelk's chance in a supernova.

London completes Newton's. For only a few reasonably worthless looking cities, Lizzy is doing alright up there.

(10) 230 - Kill an American knight. Pull back to heal and assess. St. Louis is starving but still appears to be a huge culture flip potential problem. Workers have little to do.

Sell Physics to England for Economics, 2 gold, and TM. Our rep must not be too horrible. That's an OK deal. Ring up tech-leader Bismarck. He's way too powerful, and I don't want to help, but I want his knowledge. Magnetism for WM, 24 gpt, and 7 gold. I swallow hard, knowing the per turn cost will really hurt once our GA is up. But, we have a few marketplaces coming online, and a bank in Thebes.... I agree.

(11) 250 - Pushing on to even out the turns. I get our settler to St. Louis. America has a settler/spearmen team headed for old Miami spot. We can beat them there, but I don't know if we can defend it. It might be worth it...and it might not. Final micromanagement.

Arathorn is feeling old. Cleopatra seems tired and listless. The time has come for new blood and new ideas.

Our ending army: 4 warrior, 3 sword, 4 pike, 6 knights, 3 catapults, 1 war chariot. Not a whole lot improved, really. They're almost all on the front lines. A backdoor boat team could really hurt. A few pike being produced to defend back lines. It's still smoke and mirrors, but the AI incompetence allowed us to gain 4 cities and raze a 5th with little cost to ourselves. Amazing!

Germany is still at least two techs ahead. They're willing to part with either Nationalism or Steam Power for 33 gpt and 314 gold. No triggers pulled. I got us 8 techs in 11 turns, which helps a lot but we might need more. RRs? Draft? War mobilization? It's too much for me to arbitrarily decide. The reins are being passed.

We have 8 turns of MPP with Germany left. When that's over, I heartily suggest we cancel, make peace with America, and build up a bit again. Infantry and artillery might be our weapons of choice next time.

Sirian, I'm still leaving you in a very precarious situation. Much luck. It's gone infinitely better than I could've hoped, but we've still a long ways to go. BTW, nobody seems to have military tradition, as I've not seen it offered for trade and have seen zero cavalry. As we have no saltpeter, that's optimal for us.

Arathorn

Our world as it stands right now:

Up now: Sirian
On deck: Toecheese

Well I sure as heck didn't expect things to go this well when Abe declared war on us. Excellent job!! :goodjob:

Gotta hope now that Abe doesn't crumble under the Germany onslaught. Picture that world map with all blue as DARK blue. OUCH!

The only point, as you mentioned, is that we're sooooooooooooooooooooooooo weak militarily. If Germany got a good sneeze going that would seem to be almost it. Still... let us survive to factories and get cavs and we'll hold it. Then we'll get Replaceable parts and Hoover and we start to make a move for the lead.

This is my strongest diety game yet :D
Charis

When I read about the declaration of war, it reminded me of Egyptian Field Marshall Abdel Hakim Amer. He had a mental breakdown after the Isralies destroyed the egyptian airforce and overran their defenses in 1967. After it was discovered that he had been sending false reports to the president, he was found with bloodshot eyes and continuosly swallowing asprin while trying to site a single battery. He eventually committed suicide.

Fortunetly, you guys were able to be somewhat victorious.

I think it's high time we decided on a FP site. Granted, it's only 250 AD, but we're at least two, possibly three techs into the Industrial Age.

My "grand plan": Build the Forbidden Palace in Pi-Rameses. I know it's right next to Thebes, but it will give us a boost right now. The FP helps both with distance and with max. city # calculations. P-R can build it in a reasonable length of time and we get that boost.

Then, later, when either America or Germany starts to fold under the human's superior use of rails/artillery, we get a Great Leader (that's the :smoke: part) and use him to move the Palace. Most of our original cities are still very close to the FP in P-R and we get a whole 'nother productive area around the palace. It will minimize flip worries, as we don't really want to completely eliminate any civ, as that will drive tech costs up.

Under this scenario, I see us winning a space race victory. Of course, it's possible tanks will give us the edge we need for a domination, too, but either will require a good palace/FP set-up, IMO.

Another possibility is to try the FP in St. Louis and hope to expand around it. I would argue against this for the following reasons:

- St. Louis is still a culture-flip candidate.
- It'd take a long time to build there.
- Getting cities on both sides of St. Louis would require hitting both America and Germany, whereas my plan is flexible for either.
- On the plus side, though, this doesn't require a leader like my plan does.

Other opinions/ideas?
Arathorn

I'm not used to seeing mid-turn reports. Never posted one.

??? Less than a week ago, I see several mid-turn reports from Sirian... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14286&perpage=20&pagenumber=9

They start at 6:29 a.m. and there were 3 of them before the final report at 2:53 p.m. Not so? The reports continue until 4:15 p.m., but that can be seen as thinking/writing/posting time. Am I missing something?

I guess it also seems like it lately, as you've been posting multiple times for one report, and it takes hours occasionally, making it feel like mid-turn reports....

[Note: I was all set to make this write-up a whole jury trial with multiple incidents of Sirian and mid-turn reports. I came up dry -- mostly. Mea culpa.]

Arathorn

"Hmmm..two half-cities smack on top of each other. Why in the world did Arathorn do that?"

Here are my thoughts. We've invested quite a bit in Alexandria -- a temple, a barracks, and a library at the very least (might be more, I don't recall) and I hate to lose the culture, the pop, etc. by trying to settle it out.

Why not raze Houston then? Well, it's a culture/settle thing. With just Alexandria, there is one square without our culture on it. The AI would be quite likely to settle there for some time, meaning we would either need to dedicate a unit to guarding that spot or something. Didn't seem optimal.

Buffalo is, of course, a fully serviceable fishing village/half-city where it is. We might want another one up the coast a ways.

Detroit, as I said before, should become workers/settlers, as it's not benefiting us much at all, IMO.

Arathorn

??? Less than a week ago, I see several mid-turn reports from Sirian...

:rolleyes:

Unless I want to host all the pics myself, there's only one per post. Do I really need to say any more? I'm sorry you didn't get the reaction you wanted. I offered an explanation and had a very busy Civ3 weekend and now I need to defend that?


Why not raze Houston then? Well, it's a culture/settle thing. With just Alexandria, there is one square without our culture on it. The AI would be quite likely to settle there for some time, meaning we would either need to dedicate a unit to guarding that spot or something. Didn't seem optimal.

The Houston choice didn't work out. Dismantling Alexandria would have been high weed use :smoke: I'm glad you didn't move in that direction. The result of your turn was impressive, you didn't just hold on, but made gain! Nicely done. I like your FP idea, so I went with it. Not an ideal choice, but far better than wasting the FP entirely, or waiting until its too late to matter. I don't think it would be wise to move our capital later, though. Looking just at the math of corruption, yeah, a grand idea, but overall I doubt it. By the time we'd have such an area sufficiently secure AND improved well enough to make a difference, it probably wouldn't matter. I also agreed with getting rid of Detroit, so I did so.


IT 250AD: We're thin, thin, thin. Still, rather less exposed than I expected. Germany is taking a lot of heat off us, getting them onto our side made all the difference. I look at our captured cities and find trouble. ONE defender left in cities with resisters still in place? I'll be SHOCKED if my turn finishes without a city flip or two, but then again, we don't have troops to spare, so leaving them behind to flip while going to take St. Louis was probably a great idea. (If the attack had failed, we'd be reviling you now :) but a gambit won is a gambit won, and Deity is all about managing risks, so good job).

I veto the Detroit settler idea, though. LAST thing we need is to plop down a new city and have it start with an American citizen. I shift to workers. I also shift Buffalo, Houston, and St. Louis to workers, to bleed off their population the compassionate way. (Free slave labor sounds good to me about now anyway). Well, actually, Houston has 15 shields in place, and I don't want to waste ten, so I set it to build an Explorer first, then on to workers.

Entertainers in our cities? Arrgh. Oh, and angry rivals. Two birds with one stone: I buy luxuries from Ghandi, Joanie, and Biz for gpt, then fire all entertainers (except one in Memphis, but he too will be jobless when the market is done). I switch the city north of Memphis to Cathedral, and buy a courthouse at the one below silk town. I'm going to hold off on any more tech purchases, and I also have to keep in mind that our GA will dry up on my turn, and I can't buy so much that we go broke. The good news, our income went UP after dropping lux to zero and firing entertainers. Everyone is now Polite with us except America. Oh, and we have a lot of happy people now.

Pi-Rameses swaps to Forbidden Palace and I rearrange tiles to max its shields.

260AD: Abe sends one knight to attack Saint Louie. He dies against our pike. (ONE pike? Wow, thinner than I realized.)

We have a settler there? Must have missed that in the report. I don't like the situation so I leave him parked for now.

Helio finishes pike, and I micro to get to 20 shields and switch to catapult. Our workers head east, to start clearing jungles (and stay away from the combat zone). Well, not all of them, but most of them. A few are hanging around on final duties in what is otherwise fully upgraded land. Our explorer moves from Houston to Helio. I send the new pike from Helio toward St. Louis.

It's a good thing I bought all those luxuries, as our war weariness just doubled. Eep!

270AD: Abe sends one knight toward Helio, stops in the forest on their side of the border. Biz razes that American city north of St. Louis, I didn't catch the name it was gone so fast. The incense up there is now in neutral territory.

I use an elite knight to attack Abe's knight. We win but lose 3 hp, so I have to send in a pike from Helio to cover, then I decide to send the new cata also. Our explorer rushes across the border to pillage that horse. Then... on a whim I decide screw it, we're going in. I moved all the rest of our knights across the border onto the tile with the horse. St. Louis has just two pikes and two cats. If it flips this turn, I may throw my monitor out the window. :lol:

280AD: Abe sends a knight against our stack on his horse, but he foolishly does so from the Philly side of the river and our defender wins without a scratch! And... that's all he did. He is out of gas, folks.

Our explorer races past Philly to pillage his incense. Suicide mission, but this is war and maybe with all the crap descending on him, Abe will have other priorities. Our forces converge on Philly and find a regular rifle on duty. Plus the city shrank from size 8 to size 6 so I presume he just drafted twice. GOOD! Just what I wanted. We then pillage all his roads on the Egyptian side of Philly, completely disconnecting his rapid access to our territory. Our wounded knight retreats to Helio, and our pike and cat pull back too.

I send our settler north with a pike.

290AD: A longbow out of Philly attacks and slays one of our elite knights. A knight I moved next to his iron has baited Abe's lone knight to attack... again, across a river, and again we win without a scratch! Then Abe moves a regular and conscript rifle OUT OF Philly :rolleyes: onto the mountain. I could probably take Philly now, but I don't want it. Now here comes Biz, and how. Major task force enters American territory: knights, longbows, a horsie, and a rifle.

Our explorer pillages the saltpeter on the mountain. (I remember pillaging that mountain with a warrior on my first turn! :) ). Abe can't even spare a unit to capture our explorer? Now that's sad.

I slay one longbow with a knight, which loses two hps, then pulls back. Our forces retreat from the Philly area, leaving Biz's hordes to have their fun. :flamedevil:

Our settler and pike cross the river, moving onto the target tile of my choice. Workers in the east are moving on the jungles now, and the American cities in our lands are shrinking. Memphis and Alexandria need defense, I have them start pikes.

Our explorer pillages Abe's Iron. Ha! No more knights for him for a while.

300AD: Abe shufles a vet rifle and settler past our explorer on the mountain. He attacks one of our knights with a regular rifle from the mountain, which causes us to retreat. He also moves his conscript rifle down off the mountain to cover the other one, which lost one hp in the attack on us.

Then it was Bismarck's turn. He slays FIVE American rifles with one longbow lost, and two knights retreating. Also destroyed their settler (disbanded the workers). Even across rivers he attacked and won. Amazing stuff.

Then... America and Germany sign a peace treaty!

I found our city of Herionconpolis north of St. Louis. Our explorer pillages one of the silks right there at DC, then retreats into the mountains. With Germany at peace now with America, we can finally end this war!

:jump:

I dial up Abe and... I get a BUSY SIGNAL! He won't talk to us! :rolleyes:

Stupid, stupid AI. I know that's in there for a reason, but it needs some work, still. And yes, Abe has ONE knight in range of our brand new city, and yes our MPP is still in effect and can't be cancelled. So... Abe's toast. He's about to piss off Germany in the worst way, and I kinda doubt he's going to survive it. Once mighty America, feared by all the world, now crumbling under his own aggressions. He Chose Unwisely.

Our knights pull out of American territory.

310AD: Abe attacks our new city, fails and his unit retreats. Germany declares war and his massive forces in the area obliterate several American units. Others march back toward Philly.

I decide it's time to make a land grab, as there are a ton of German forces between Abe and us now. I set El Amarna to settler. I move our forces back to St. Louis and Helio, with a knight over at the new city.

320AD: Abe charges a knight halfway across the world to finish off the German horsie who only has 1 hp left. Biz then slaughters that unit and another rifle.

With three pop left, and one of them STILL a resister after all this time, Houston deposes our governor. :(

Ha! The glorious city of Alexandria retains control over the two tiles between them, allowing our forces at Helio to attack on the same round! I send our war chariot in first to soften up the enemy. No softening took place, but our chariot did retreat. Our first knight got the job done, and I most happily burnt that trash dump to the ground. That blight on our land is now forever gone. Gone gone gone! Alexandria swapped to settler, due to finish next turn. (Read Arathorn's last post after my turn was done. He must have miscalculated, as all the land there immediately fell back under our border control). I wanted another city over there anyway, might as well. Pick up that whale and one other tile out of range of Alexandria, and that close to our capital, it will add income, too.

Sadly, up north, Biz had the same idea as I did, and he has settled Stuttgart (or is that Salzburg? I forget, some S city) on the river east of Herion. Still one open spot all the way to the north, though, so I rush our settler.

330AD: Germany signs alliances with India and England against America. Lincoln is toasty toast now. He's finished. I hope that settling those gaps and stretched our border all the way to the north coast will slow Biz enough to let Abe hang on a while longer. We shall see.

Oh yeah, our golden age is over now. And ACK we're down to about 30 gpt surplus left!

340AD: Now that India and France finally have Steam, I buy it from Biz for 23gpt. We're now down to 80 cash and about 15 gpt income, as I also rushed some temples. St. Louis is down finally to size 1, Detroit has been disbanded, and Buffalo is also size one, plus Houston is just a memory. So our flip worries are way down now, we should be able to hold on to what we have, although St. Louis could use another two units on garrison, and another at El-Amarna maybe (somehow, an American citizen got in there).

WE HAVE COAL! Up at Giza, in the swamp region. Arathorn's silk gambit has really paid off big dividends for us. Not only the silk, which is enormous, but now also coal. Could make all the difference (my solo deity game, which I showed pics of earlier... NO coal anywhere within 1000's of miles of me! I'm up to Steel and haven't built a single rail, as no nations have any surplus online yet. Coal is just huge.)

350AD: Rails underway. I acquired 8 new slave labor on my turn, 2 from Houston before it flipped, 2 at Buffalo, 3 from Detroit, plus one more from Houston when I razed it. That's like four workers of our own, but no maintenance cost.

An incense came available (before I settled the new city) so I trade that and some minor gpt to Ghandi for Nationalism. Then I settled on the north coast, but Joanie was too poor to afford our incense as yet. Keep an eye on that, and use it to trade for more tech or something.

I drafted once each at Helio and Memphis because there were 12 and maxed on food. Thebes is 12 but not maxed, so it would cost us extra there. Same with the other city we have that's large enough, would cost too much with no immediate need on hand.


Overall, we're back into a secure situation. America no longer poses a credible threat. Biz did end our MPP, but we are buying his spices and he remains Gracious. I've never seen a Gracious AI sneak attack me. Biz has Industrialization, too, but we are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, still paying for all those tech deals. Need some time to recover, build rails, factories, etc. Still no cavalry, and Biz will be busy for some time trying to take over America, so we're in good shape, I think. Not perfect, but we weathered the first big storm.

Need to upgrade our pikemen, and we're too broke.