Following in the footsteps of FfH I really believe that WHFB needs new traits to help define and diversify the leaders. I have no problem with keeping the Vanilla ones, but think we need plenty more. We can most likely steal plenty of ideas from FfH. ;)

Vanilla:

Organized
Aggressive
Spiritual
Philosophical
Creative
Expansive
Industrial (which I hate as is!)
Financial

Possible new traits:

Anything race related
Magical sphere related

one more just in case we really brainstorm a lot!

Could you clarify what the FFH traits do exactly? Very likly we include some.

I hope Kael doesn't mind, but here are the FfH traits, at least a while ago these were the ones:

+Aggressive

Free Combat 1 promotion for all Melee Units
½ cost Training Yard and Drydocks

+Agnostic

Can’t adopt State Religions
Cities resist religious spread
(Negative trait)

+Arcane

Arcane units earn XP faster.

+Barbarian

At peace with the barbarians
-10% research

+Creative

+2 Culture per turn per city
½ cost Obelisk and Theatre

+Defender

+15% Combat and +15% Withdrawal rate when the unit is in its own land.

+Expansive

+2 Health per city
No Upkeep on Health Care Civics
½ cost Granary and Harbor

+Financial

+1 commerce on spaces generating 2 or more commerce
½ cost Market and Moneychanger

Hidden

Lands are always covered by the fog of war to other civs.

+Industrious

+50% Wonder production
½ cost Forge

+Organized

-50% Civic upkeep cost
Can build the Command Post
½ cost Courthouse and Lighthouse

+Magic Resistant

All units gain the magic resistant promotion
Ring of Warding is twice as likely to desttory summoned attackers

+Philosophical

+50% Great People birth rate
No Upkeep on Education Civics
½ cost Elder Council and Library

+Raiders (Loki)

3 times as much gold from pillaging
+1 xp from each combat win
Archer, Melee, Mounted and Recon units start with the Commando promotion

+Scorched Earth (Loki)

Must Raze all Cities
(Negative trait)

+Spiritual

Free Mobility 1 promotion for all Disciple Units
½ cost Temples
No Anarchy

+Summoners

Summoned creatures last for 3 turns instead of 1.

Could you clarify what the FFH traits do exactly? Very likly we include some.

Mostly I meant the Arcane, Summoner and the like traits. I thought there were racial traits, but maybe not. :confused:

I don't like traits, I just don't see how they are really good. A leader if he/she is good should be good at all aspects not at 2 or 3. If there was another way we could do traits I think it would be better

I don't like traits, I just don't see how they are really good. A leader if he/she is good should be good at all aspects not at 2 or 3. If there was another way we could do traits I think it would be better

This is where I was thinking of racial traits.

If someone is a Dwarf and gets a newly implemented Dwarven Trait then there would be additional bonuses. They are basically bonuses to me, not all encompassing traits. There is a +2 :health: trait so I think a leader should be able to give +:) as well. It's just an additional stat that XML wouldn't be able to add, I think.

edit - and this is why we have discussions. Lots of good come from them. ;)

Racial traits might be a good idea. I can't think of any difference refering to trait between the two f.i. orcs anyway. Let's put it like this.

suggestions:

magic traits we'll have to build our magic system first to decide

chaos-hidden, aggressive

Dwarfs-magicresistant(later; we'll have to convert that), industrious, organized

orcs-aggressive, -10% research, 3times gold from pillaging

woodelves-defender, hidden

Highelves-creative, philosophical

Nippon Agricultural

Chaos Spawn(special babarian- consisting of undead, Mutants and Demons) - scorched earth, aggressive

i see Ariel as arcan also, but the rest i really like:)

I´d like to have racial traits for Orcs, Gobbos, Dwarves and Bretonnia for example.

all Greenskinz gain the Goblin or Orcs promotion, allowing for the WAAAGH! to make their units better - but also animosity.

Dwarven units get magic resistance.

Bretonnians get this whole Knights Vow, Peasants Duty, Aura of the Lady thing.

And I´m sure we can find things like this for other races also.

So basically I am for traits that give certain promotions to the units (must not be all) of the Leaders.

I thought about it:

I'm not sure about that all bretonian for instance should get all of this on second thought. Ordinary peasants like Man-atarms shouldn't get this. Maybe we better define unipromotions by the units. This will be civspecific enough since all units will be unique after all.

Greenskins may sound alright but they'll have some Trolls in too who aren't affected by whaaagh. So promotions by traits better not!

Magicresistance for dwarfs as trait could be defined for other effects than unitpromotions like some buildings build faster to protect cities against magic i.e. Unitresistance should also specified by unit. (though we can think about if it comes out that dwarfs don't have any undwarven units in their design)

I thought about it:

I'm not sure about that all bretonian for instance should get all of this on second thought. Ordinary peasants like Man-atarms shouldn't get this. Maybe we better define unipromotions by the units. This will be civspecific enough since all units will be unique after all.

Greenskins may sound alright but they'll have some Trolls in too who aren't affected by whaaagh. So promotions by traits better not!

Magicresistance for dwarfs as trait could be defined for other effects than unitpromotions like some buildings build faster to protect cities against magic i.e. Unitresistance should also specified by unit. (though we can think about if it comes out that dwarfs don't have any undwarven units in their design)

When I think about it a second time, I have to admit that you´re right but then we should get some other race specific traits, but not this whole magic thing IMO - I don´t think WH is that much about Magics to allow for magic-specific traits.

We'll see. But anyway magic trait(if we include some) will be after next release. We need to know exactly how magic will work first. Let's concentrate on nonmagic traits for now.

Ok I must be off.
till later(don't know yet if I can be available the weekend, but sunday evening, hopefully earlier)

How about leader traits associated with terrain.

Friend of the Woods
- +1 food from forests
- takes twice as long to chop
for wood elves

Mountaineer
- Mountans produce 3 hammers
- Mines produce +1 commerce
for dwarves

Sea faring
- +1 movement to all ships
- Free combat 1 promotion to all ships
for high elves

Prairy dog
- +10% defence on plains and grassland
- +10% when attacking to plains and grassland
for Brettonians

Definitely Lord Olleus, sounds good to me.

Slightly OT - are dwarves given the ability to traverse mountains (peaks)? If so the Dwarven Trait would allow that.

Seems like a good idea to me. Maybe create a new improvement called 'tunnel' which makes peaks crossable. And only dwarfs should be able to build this, or at least build it a lot faster.

Perhaps make the "Friend of the Woods" trait allow the building of a special "elven Cottage" the same as a normal cottage, except does not chop down forests. and prevent wood elves from chopping forests entirely.

Perhaps make the "Friend of the Woods" trait allow the building of a special "elven Cottage" the same as a normal cottage, except does not chop down forests. and prevent wood elves from chopping forests entirely.

That works in FfH. :)

I'd like to see Elves unable to chop at all, but that's just me.

That works in FfH. :)

I'd like to see Elves unable to chop at all, but that's just me.
I like the idea too. Let's steal it. Know how to implement it Woodelf?

I like the idea too. Let's steal it. Know how to implement it Woodelf?

Amen to that sister!

Good thing IMO, at least for the woodelves (not sure about highelves, darkelves should certainly chop down the forests).

We should give 'em the cottage and don´t let 'em chop anything!

Good thing IMO, at least for the woodelves (not sure about highelves, darkelves should certainly chop down the forests).

We should give 'em the cottage and don´t let 'em chop anything!
Yes only for woodelves. Highelves should be able to do both working on forests and chop them down. Darkelves as other civs.
I want the ancient forests to be stolen too, btw.

But we should wait for that since this is still worked on in FFH.

yeh, i do like the ancient forests.

We'll leave that to Lord Olleus. The big advantage in WHFB over FfH that I see is that religions in FfH and races sometimes are at a cross purpose. If we institute racial traits then the Elven Trait can disallow chopping via python (I think).

To explain further; in FfH you can have Fellowship (Elven), but not be elven. That creates some issues IMO. Here we can have Elven Traits for Elves and have the religions mean something else.

We'll leave that to Lord Olleus. The big advantage in WHFB over FfH that I see is that religions in FfH and races sometimes are at a cross purpose. If we institute racial traits then the Elven Trait can disallow chopping via python (I think).

To explain further; in FfH you can have Fellowship (Elven), but not be elven. That creates some issues IMO. Here we can have Elven Traits for Elves and have the religions mean something else.
The easier way I think is just define the worker actions differntly which I think can be done via unitxml. Just remove Build_remove_forest for woodelf workers(they are unique unit after all)

The easier way I think is just define the worker actions differntly which I think can be done via unitxml. Just remove Build_remove_forest for woodelf workers(they are unique unit after all)

Yepp, you´re right, no python-magic involved in that issue.

Ah, okay. Different elves treat things differently. Fine by me.

I'm not sure if Kael plans on using this or not, but we had suggested a Subterranean trait for certain civs that would mean vastly different things for their cities. Just a thought to ponder.

what would the subterranean trait do exactly?

what would the subterranean trait do exactly?

Allow "underground" parts of cities which might increase defense, increase living space, have resources that only they can use. Maybe night vision since they live in caves? In MOO2 the Subterranean trait doubled the max pop of a planet. Maybe here it increase the base :health:?

Good idea for Skaven if they ever come(need totally new models). Also Dwarfs of course.

Yes, i vote for subterranean then, sound very nice, and will add alot of flavor to underground dwelling race, Skaven and Dwarves are a must. maybe make this trait make building cities in Peaks possible, and once there is a city in a peak, all civs can traverse it.

Yes, i vote for subterranean then, sound very nice, and will add alot of flavor to underground dwelling race, Skaven and Dwarves are a must. maybe make this trait make building cities in Peaks possible, and once there is a city in a peak, all civs can traverse it.
Nice idea! yes that's something that would fit.

The beauty of the Project and Mod Forum. :clap:

Yes, i vote for subterranean then, sound very nice, and will add alot of flavor to underground dwelling race, Skaven and Dwarves are a must. maybe make this trait make building cities in Peaks possible, and once there is a city in a peak, all civs can traverse it.

Maybe also roads (would be Tunnels - but a really high number of rounds should be needed to complete those).

And certainly this trait would be something for Hobgoblins and Chaos-Dwarves also

Ok guys that are all nice ideas but we need to focus on what's achieveable now. The release is sheduled for early July that means what isn't finished by the end of the monch won't go in the next release. So what we need is a concrete list what traits the Leaders should have for that next release.
What traits else we're planning for the future we should talk about after that.

I like the idea about the subterrainian trait but we should focus on that as soon the Dwarf get more important. For next release it's about Elves and Orcs mainly.

Ok, so am I right when I think that for the next release we only take the traits that are in vanilla cIV?

If so we can stop to discuss abou other traits for now, but take up this discussion again after the next releas.

We will only put in new traits we see fit for Elves and Orcs and don't involve magic otherwise I fear this'll take too long.;)

Good, then we should take up the discussion on the Friend of the Woods trait for - you guess it - the Woodelves.

Olleus suggested +1 food from forests and twice as long to chop.

I suugest: +1 food from forests, is able to build cottages on woods (woods give no commerce, remember that.), unable to chop and build lumbermills.

Good, then we should take up the discussion on the Friend of the Woods trait for - you guess it - the Woodelves.

Olleus suggested +1 food from forests and twice as long to chop.

I suugest: +1 food from forests, is able to build cottages on woods (woods give no commerce, remember that.), unable to chop and build lumbermills.
I take the second I don't want the woodelves to chop at all and lumbermills on ancient forests seemed wrong to me in FFH. Settled. Next one please:D

For Orion I suggest the Defender trait from FfH (+15% Strangth, +15% Withdrawal when in its own land) and Frien of the Woods.

For Ariel: FotW + Philosophical or Spiritual


EDIT: I don´t like the idea about racial traits (same traits for all leaders of one race) because the whole thing about different leaders is about THEM having different traits.

Ok for woodelves I think we take three traits(racespecific)
Hidden
Friend of the Woods
and Defender

Everyone agree?

Highelves I want to be creative and philosophical(later also arcane maybe but that's after patch)

Orcs I'd like to be agressive and Babarian Raiders (that is 3x gold from pillaging and -10% research) (and hopefully they'll get their Whaaag to balance a boost but that I want to be defined via units.xml

EDIT: I don´t like the idea about racial traits (same traits for all leaders of one race) because the whole thing about different leaders is about THEM having different traits.

and playtesting will show if the WAAAGH! can balance the Barbarian Raider.

And If other races or leaders or whatever get only 2 promotions, the Woddelves should also stick with 2 IMO - at least for the next release or until playtesting proves that they need more than others.

Giving just 3 traits to every civ seems quite boring to me. We should give them traits if they fit no matter the number and find more interesting ways to balance that later;)

Giving just 3 traits to every civ seems quite boring to me. We should give them traits if they fit no matter the number and find more interesting ways to balance that later;)

Yes. The number is irrelevant. They all weigh differently in the end anyhow.

I think we need a trait for the Empire and maybe other large empires like Cathay too called: Imperialistic (culture+1, upkeep-50, cheaper court)

Like it or not?

p.s. I said we need focus but since orcs and the good elves have their traits now(at least for release) we should at least also design traits for Nippon, Cathay, Tilea and Empire since those are the ones we have moste units for. Sometimes it's all faster than expected:D Let's decide that quick!

I think Ariel should be Archane when magic is implemented aswell BTW.

High elves MUST have seafaring.

I think Ariel should be Archane when magic is implemented aswell BTW.

High elves MUST have seafaring.
Ok they can have Seafaring but they'll lose arcane. I think it's better not to use traits that affect units anyway. We can define such things via unit.
(ok maybe Summoners we'll keep but not arcane)

AHHH! both those traits are essential for high elves though! *pulls hair* is there some way to give them both??

Give em both Ploep! Come on man... :p

AHHH! both those traits are essential for high elves though! *pulls hair* is there some way to give them both??
They'll already have creative, philosophical and seafaring. 4 traits are simply too much. But we can modify them in future releases to fit better. However I'm not sure if we really need Arcane I think it's better having that defined for units instead making a trait for it.

Dump creative. It's a nice trait for the 2:culture:/turn, but are the High Elves artsy or more thinkers?

lock in thinkers

Dump creative. It's a nice trait for the 2:culture:/turn, but are the High Elves artsy or more thinkers?
I would think both. Maybe we need a new trait combinating those but for now I'll keep it. We'll work this over after we got the magicsystem running and we can have magic traits, okay?

Combining both to yield 1:culture:/turn and 1/2 the GP bonus (of Philosophical) would work for me.

Combining both to yield 1:culture:/turn and 1/2 the GP bonus (of Philosophical) would work for me.
Ok for me too I found 2:culture that early a bit too much anyway in vanilla, settled, lets find a name for it.

Patronage? Like a Patron of the Arts, but also going after the GP points.

how about inspirational? the High elves seem pretty inspirational to me.

Patronage? Like a Patron of the Arts, but also going after the GP points.
No don't like Patronage for elves. We could simply call it creative and take vanilla out though. after all thinking is a creative process. ok?

hehe, what timeing, we both posted at the same time!

Inspirational is good for me. Patronage for something else maybe.

what does patronage mean? is it like Patron as in patron god?

what does patronage mean? is it like Patron as in patron god?

Like a sponsor. Most Artsy people had patrons who helped finance them while they created art.

Inspirational is good for me. Patronage for something else maybe.
Patronage would be a good name for a tilean trait (or estalian) though we should decide what it should do then.
I don't like inspirationial either- makes me think of stoned esoteric hippies(I like smoke but not really the Hippie stuff). Lets keep it Creative for now and take out the vanilla one.

oh i see now.

call this new one creative and rename the old one Aestheticism.

Ok if we keep the vanilla creative we'll name it aesteticism. though I wonder if there's a civ more fitting to that than highelves so I think we'll pull that vanilla trait off alltogether.

What? but thats the opposite of what i said...

What? but thats the opposite of what i said...
No you misunderstood. I meant not keep it for the elves but in game as a trait still renamed to Aestetiscism.

The old creative never worked for me. I like any change that changes that!

same here.

Right, thats that sorted then. next trait now?

have we got a Greenskin trait for the orcs yet?

have we got a Greenskin trait for the orcs yet?

Do orcs live underground? Do they mind cramped spaces? To me they wouldn't have the unhealthiness/unhappiness of a big population. Maybe a Cramped trait that yields a +:health: and +:) to show they don't get negative modifers as quickly as other civs?

Are we doing Panic? Maybe they have a trait that makes the leader more/less susceptible to panic somehow?

I think we need a trait for the Empire and maybe other large empires like Cathay too called: Imperialistic (culture+1, upkeep-50, cheaper court)

Like it or not?

To come back to that, I like the idea, good thing I second that. The "Creative" thing for the elves I like also.

The Health Bonus for orcs is very good, as is the Happiness Bonus (they don´t get unhappy that fast, because they would simply get a 'eadbutt from their boss and then quickly shut up).

Maybe an Overlord type trait for the Orc leaders then instead of Cramped? They aren't allowed to be unhappy or complain of unhealthiness. :)

Or we could call it "Pecking Order".

Or even "Rulership of the Strongest", but that may be to long a word

That sounds more like a civic to me than a trait.

Btw I see no reason to give orcs a happines bonus- they quarrel a lot mostly because they're unhappy with each other all the time. A health bonus is ok, orcs are tough but it's not enough to be a trait of it's own.

Or even just 'Greenskin'? an ork is an ork no matter how you try to change him.

In the tabletop game, orks and gobbos had the animosity penaly. could implement this?

Will be in as an promotion, like Slayer, WHAAAGH!, Fear, Terror.

But just Greenskin sounds good!

"Greenskin" trait ideas:

all units created start with Animosity trait.
cities do not get un happyness from over crowding.
Orcs are not able to build the Herbalist.


Orcs do not strike me as particularly clean. whay do you want them to have +health??

"Greenskin" trait ideas:

all units created start with Animosity trait.

that will not be defined by traits, orc and Goblin units will get them automatically.


cities do not get un happyness from over crowding.
Orcs are not able to build the Herbalist.


Orcs do not strike me as particularly clean. whay do you want them to have +health??

what´s the herbalist :confused: I don´t think we have it in there but we can surely add it - post in the buildings and wonders thread.

:lol: i havent played vanilla civ in ages, been playing FfH, and am thinking about the herbalist from there:lol:

well, anyway, dont let orcs get + health.;)

lots of meat gives them health .. followers of nurgle or skaven don't need health, they are disease .. but even though an orc stinks, he needs to be healthy to bash some heads!

fighting makes an orc feel good too .. it could give them happiness?

maybe giv orcs a n extra health for multiple meat resorces of the same kind?
make military units stationed in cites give +1 happy for every three military?

maybe giv orcs a n extra health for multiple meat resorces of the same kind?
make military units stationed in cites give +1 happy for every three military?

The first idea could be a building, ala smokehouse.

The second is more like a civic.

They might be able to be made into traits, I'm not sure.

yeh, but if the orcs have and additional bonus for meat resorces, and huge armies, then it creates more insentive to play them, and flavor.
i say make them a building (ala smokehouse;) ) and a civic (tyranny?), but also combine them to counter the animosity in the 'greenskin' trait.

PS, when i say 'orcs' i am reffering to all greenskins.;)

How about giving orcs minus war weariness. The more they at war the happier they get! Of course this would have to be a lot smaller than the normal negative happiness, but it would force greenskin players to be constantly at war, specially if they have reduced base happiness.

I was thinking the same thing Lord Olleus. Also, can you give a minus unhappiness instead of a plus happiness? I'm thinking the leader might not allow the people to be unhappy, but that doesn't mean they are happy.

It translates into the same thing for civ 4. A city is either happy or unhappy, the reason why doesn't really matter. Another way of implementing this could be to recieve mild unhappiness for being at peace, but this might force the players into being to war like. Remember, it is important to leave the players some descisons to make and not make each race to stereotypical.

How about giving orcs minus war weariness. The more they at war the happier they get! Of course this would have to be a lot smaller than the normal negative happiness, but it would force greenskin players to be constantly at war, specially if they have reduced base happiness.
That I like! settled, lets do it. Think this'll really add a unique feeling to that civ:D
How to do it?

No idea. Will add it to my todo list.

I think it could easily be added as a civic, not sure about a trait though.

That could be said about most traits/civis. However, I think that this is more of a trait as it represents a mentality and not a set of laws, which is what civics are.

That could be said about most traits/civis. However, I think that this is more of a trait as it represents a mentality and not a set of laws, which is what civics are.

Yeah, I'm finding myself getting confused about separating the two. If you can make it a trait then super! I suppose adding in new entries into the traits XML file isn't too hard for python experts? Is it python or SDK or both, or neither? ;)

XML is a wholy SDK matter. it is tedious to do but relatively easy.

Cool. So what other fields could we add to traits? You should be the one telling us what's possible. ;) Basically anything we can dream up might be doable?

Anything that doesn't involve graphics is doable, but somethings might take a very long time to do.

Wow! the possibilities are endless!!

K, so the orcs so far:
~All units start with the animosity promotion
~They get MINUS warweryness for being at war (does that mean they get +happy?)
~+ 2 heath if there are multiple meat resorces of the same kind. (instead of only 1 health)

do they need anything else? i feel thats about even... what you guys think?

Wow! the possibilities are endless!!

K, so the orcs so far:
~All units start with the animosity promotion
~They get MINUS warweryness for being at war (does that mean they get +happy?)
~+ 2 heath if there are multiple meat resorces of the same kind. (instead of only 1 health)

do they need anything else? i feel thats about even... what you guys think?

Orcs like fighting (amongst themselves), war and raw meat. It's sounds perfect to me!
Edit: Is it possible to implement fear to Elves for Goblins? and hatred against Dwarfs for Night Goblins?

Wow! the possibilities are endless!!

K, so the orcs so far:
~All units start with the animosity promotion
~They get MINUS warweryness for being at war (does that mean they get +happy?)
~+ 2 heath if there are multiple meat resorces of the same kind. (instead of only 1 health)

do they need anything else? i feel thats about even... what you guys think?
As I already said earlier no magic or psychology promotion by trait now. Orcs have units that don't suffer animosity like blackorcs in example. a trait would not take this to account.
the rest is ok.

so is that settled? could you post the final product for the Wood and High elves and orc traits so we can review them?

It's updated. Look where you find questionmarks.

where is it updated?:confused: i cant find it.

Leaderheadart&traits

Ok what are the lines I have to change for the trait friends of the wood to give +1food in forest terrain?

I think that's python or SDK. Maybe Olleus can help out. I've never added new tags to XML.

Just my two cents:

More leaders should have the flavor (not trait) military and/or production and less leaders should have the culture flavor. Culture is a nice thing, but I´d like the leaders to concentrate more on Units/military buildings and production buildings to speed up their whole production. I think it would make the AI alittle bit more challenging, but I don´t know how much impact flavors have on the game.

Furthermore, every leader should have at least 2 flavors (some have only one right now - and some have only culture) and it may be a way to differentiate leaders of the same civ, but that´s not very necessary for me.

That makes sense. Military-7, another flavor-2 would be about right probably.

Since alignment ala FfH would seem too similar IMO is there anyway to implement a racial modifier to leaders? Is this already planned? I was thinking orcs would have a -X modifer to humans, but a -Y to elves and a +Z to other orcs or even undead.

Is this possible to add some tension to the leaders? Religion alone isn't going to do it.

good idea. i would like to see that in WH, would be very cool:)

I would like to see that as well, as long as the boni aren't too big (+-3 at the most).

I could deal with -3 because they would start stacking with religions, with adjacent lands, with weaker/stronger, ect.

I don't want to start a new thread about Civics when it's more about traits then civics. Confused yet? Here's my idea: Create an unchangeable column in the Civics window that is about race. We'd have quite a few, but in the XML about leader behavior we'd be able to tell the game that because another race didn't share your favorite civic (racial) that you have a negative modifier with them.

Half-baked idea or possible?

I don't want to start a new thread about Civics when it's more about traits then civics. Confused yet? Here's my idea: Create an unchangeable column in the Civics window that is about race. We'd have quite a few, but in the XML about leader behavior we'd be able to tell the game that because another race didn't share your favorite civic (racial) that you have a negative modifier with them.

Half-baked idea or possible?
I understand, and that would allow tons of other things as well, such as you get special abilities depending on your civic. And if you conquered a city with another race you could get that civic as well.

Yeah, tons of racial modifiers lumped in with a Civics column.

We have to think about that. Let's get it into a seperate thread I don't like the current civics very much anyway.

One last thing Ploep to spit out before I forget....Different races/civics would then allow differing amounts of free units. That would offer some variety as well.

Nothing against that.

Just a thought to diffirenciate the dwarf armies. Because of the idea of the Book of Grudges, possible add a dwarf trait that makes negative effects relations more potent / longlasting. For you and the protaganast. Could limit trade options as time goes by, forcing the dwarves to be more self reliant.

Generally I like the idea of changing traits so More enimies, less friends, thus more wars.

Just a thought to diffirenciate the dwarf armies. Because of the idea of the Book of Grudges, possible add a dwarf trait that makes negative effects relations more potent / longlasting. For you and the protaganast. Could limit trade options as time goes by, forcing the dwarves to be more self reliant.

Generally I like the idea of changing traits so More enimies, less friends, thus more wars.
This won't require a trait. We can easily define the memory of the diplomatic events in the Leaderinfos.xml and will of course do so. Of course this won't be as noticeable for the player as a trait but it will be there!

Great idea Woodelf:tumbsup: im all for that, it would open tonnes of windows of oppertunity.

When you make over 6500 posts occassionally you come up with a decent idea. ;)

:lol: oh you're classic:lol:

You can start a forum on your own:D

I did a crappy job updating this thread. Oops.

Should the Hidden trait allow elves to not get a movement penalty in the forest. I was surprised that my woodelven warrior was penalized in the woods. :sad:

yeh, Hidden should allow woodelves to move through forests without penalty, and to be invisible while in forests.

Wouldnt that make them over powered? I don't mind them moving faster through woods, but they shouldn't be hidden! That would just be far too powerful.

I'd prefer faster over hidden if we had to chose one.

Hidden does currently nothing but only should hide the civs territory from enemy view. I wait for the code from FFH for that.
I don't mind about fastmoving elves in woods. But they already have woodsman1 as free promotion and woodman 2 gives doublemoves in wood already so they are pretty close to get that.

Don´t let us anbalance units too much, or else Woodelven units would have to be made so expensive that it would take 30 turns to produce a simple Warrior.

well, could we make hidden give woodelf units a trait called (insert name here) which makes them move through forests faster, and is also a prerequisite for a promotion called 'stalker' which is unique to woodelves, and is only avaliable after the unit has 'combat 3' and '(insert name here)' and makes the unit invisible in forests?
so the units dont start with the forest invisibility, but are able to gain it after much fighting.

well, could we make hidden give woodelf units a trait called (insert name here) which makes them move through forests faster, and is also a prerequisite for a promotion called 'stalker' which is unique to woodelves, and is only avaliable after the unit has 'combat 3' and '(insert name here)' and makes the unit invisible in forests?
so the units dont start with the forest invisibility, but are able to gain it after much fighting.
They can move faster in forests as soon they get 2 experience! I think this really is enough and if Kael finished the code for hidden I think they get some sort of invisibility in their own territory. As Duke said this is in danger of getting unbalanced. I don't want to add much more to them right now.

To get really sarcastic now (and I´m excusing myself already before I post this):

Why not give Orc Units something like "ignore Psychology except animosity and Whaagh! promotions" and give them something like +200% strenght when attacking?

I´m really Sorry if this sound too harsh/sarcastic, but I get the impression that we start to think more about what some races should be like, rather than thinking what could make them outstanding gameplay-wise while keeping the balance.

All ideas you pointed out are right concerning fluff PL, but civ is not only about fluff, it´s also about keeping some balance to the game - without balance there isn´t anything like a good gamingexperience IMO (that´s also why I have to vote against some civs having three settlers and some not. And I´m also against the different number of starting techs - although I appreciate that you raised the number of starting settlers Ploe, that makes a better earlygame IMO).

@PL: please don´t understand me wrong, you´re one of the most important persons to this mod, because without your deep knowledge of the fluff-stuff this mod would probably be halve as fun - but as I said before: sometimes we will have to compromise the fluff to get better results for the gameplay and I think as far as Woodelves are concerned we got them worked out as "fluffy" as we can get (own improvements, own trait ...) maybe we (with your ideas for starting) should begin to "fluff out" other civs (go for the Greenskinz and Undead next, because they are far to cool in WH).

Long writing, short meaning - enough for the Woodelves, we should get to other civs for now (maybe just my opinion).

:lol: ok, ok, sorry, but i really like woodelves, and when someone mentions them i cant help but join in :p...

Ok then, i promise to focus more on orcs and other civs now. i am at youre disposal;)

-some of these are really more Race boni rather than leaderhead boni but 'meeh'-

Maybe give the Empire/Imperialist +happiness for number of cities, then you have to move against maintance vs happiness

Chaos - reduce science but create a chance that a unit just built from a nieghbouring civ spawns in your capital under your control and with a choas spawn promotion. So in theroy you don't need to research all the units, but it's risky to rely on random spawning. Maybe also, boni for produced units from polluted tiles, so cities stay low but units are stong

Dark Elves/Slavers - Notorious slavers, so maybe a trait to bonus to rush production from slavery, or allow a small XP for capturing slaves / workers

Undead/War hungry - something that reduces War Weariness by 100% but reduces some othr good bonus. Undead really shouldn't be bothered by dying

Dwarves/Mountain Folk - Miners, increase chance of resource spawning from mines. -1 food from forest, +1 food form hills.

Human/Trader - small +% on trade route gold

Regimental - give Flagbearer/Standard promtion instead of the combat 1 promotion as free. Give a flat bonus if number of units in a stack above a certian size

Skirmisher - Give units (or a class of units) a bonus withdrawal %

Healer - give medic promotion free, + production on certain health buildings

Magic hunter/hater - promtion against magic users/magic resitance, negative bonus with building magic buildings so they take more to buld opr produce +unhappy people

Horsemen - give horse units defensive bonus but do something detrimental for other units

brilliant E.L.M!! regimental and skirmisher look familar...:D love them all, especially slavers

-some of these are really more Race boni rather than leaderhead boni but 'meeh'-

Maybe give the Empire/Imperialist +happiness for number of cities, then you have to move against maintance vs happiness

Chaos - reduce science but create a chance that a unit just built from a nieghbouring civ spawns in your capital under your control and with a choas spawn promotion. So in theroy you don't need to research all the units, but it's risky to rely on random spawning. Maybe also, boni for produced units from polluted tiles, so cities stay low but units are stong

Dark Elves/Slavers - Notorious slavers, so maybe a trait to bonus to rush production from slavery, or allow a small XP for capturing slaves / workers

Undead/War hungry - something that reduces War Weariness by 100% but reduces some othr good bonus. Undead really shouldn't be bothered by dying

Dwarves/Mountain Folk - Miners, increase chance of resource spawning from mines. -1 food from forest, +1 food form hills.

Human/Trader - small +% on trade route gold

Regimental - give Flagbearer/Standard promtion instead of the combat 1 promotion as free. Give a flat bonus if number of units in a stack above a certian size

Skirmisher - Give units (or a class of units) a bonus withdrawal %

Healer - give medic promotion free, + production on certain health buildings

Magic hunter/hater - promtion against magic users/magic resitance, negative bonus with building magic buildings so they take more to buld opr produce +unhappy people

Horsemen - give horse units defensive bonus but do something detrimental for other units
I like many of this ideas except Chaos they need science since they will need many magic techs. Also I think we need a thread for promtions to discuss this in more detail. We also should start threads for Dwarf, undead and Chaos design soon. I will consider this suggestions in more debt after release;)