@Duke
the objecttext I only added not to produce errors. You can still work with yours as long you don't put civics, eras and techs in.
I also need buttons or atlaslines for:


Apprenticeship.dds
Inquisition.dds
AdvancedEngineering.dds
MagicConstruction

reserved for bla bla bla

This was the last version of the techtree that JP posted before he vanished from the face of this earth - I think it´s near perfection and we should use it (not sure if we should do thid before the next release though)

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/2848/tt26at.th.jpg (http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tt26at.jpg)

he only posted this pic, no files and its got poor quality and no arrows, but we should be able to get the idea, I think.

Yes we can use some of it as well as converting more from civ3 and come up with own ideas but you're right: after the next patch as well as religion.;)
Religion and techs will be toppriority after the next release.

I updated the first post with a new techtree. Please test it someone(Backup first).

When do we get to test the whole enchilada? :)

As soon I have the unitinf from agent I will start for the UUs and Thunderfall still has to arrange me that useraccount. Early next week I hope if there's no delay.;)

I think that the tech tree should be about 25% smaller (1 less age) than the normal tech tree, and the costs of each tech should rise silghtly. That way, more wars will happen, and wars are the basic of warhammer.

We will consider this. But I'd prefer triggering wars by Leader AI and special settings for Warmongerer Civs. I like long techtrees(variety of units) but I agree that the cost of techs maybe could be increased to make it even slower. For this two we need playtesting. some races will have shorter techtrees though (like orcs which are currently triggered unable to learn writing in my game)

As for wars are the basics of WH: yes it´s oh so true and I think it should also be the basics of this mod.

Somebody put out a mod where only the capital is able to build settlers, that way the players are forced to produce more combatunits even during the early stages of the game.

maybe we should think about settlers being only able to be buildable at large cities (sizes 4 or 5) and the capital, that way we could get some more warmongering during the expansion phase - but all this talk belongs to another thread, not this one, maybe we should open after the next release a thread about this.

Fear not Olleus...I'm hoping to make the leaders love war. :evil:

Since I want to work on the techtree I want to bump this to collect some suggestions you may have. Go on brainstorming. What are civunique techs that aren't coverd yet in the current techtree? Are there tech in the current tree that simply don't make sense? What shall be the order of magic techs?
I'm planning to add an early tech called chronocles maybe that gives access to runes or hieroglyph which unlike an alphabet are more important to civs like Slann, Elves and Dwarfs in the early game which could later open the path for Highmagic, Darkmagic as well as Dwarven ingenious techs.

I vote change the religeons and have the ancient gods (elven gods or whatever) not require the old ones to be researched. but i think we should remove religeon for the moment, do the tech tree than add them in later.

I vote change the religeons and have the ancient gods (elven gods or whatever) not require the old ones to be researched. but i think we should remove religeon for the moment, do the tech tree than add them in later.
First of all why? This way we get some kind of historical order that makes sense for me. Even Vanilla supports something like that and seriously I would hate seeing christianity founded before the jewish religion. Here it seems to be not much different even if it's fantasy.

I worked a bit on the techtree. You will notice large gaps but imo it's good to have some space to fill in later as we get to more detailed civdesign. Allthough the 3rd age could use some more fluff or else it will be pretty short.
I didn't rearange any units or buildings yet but I'm planning to do some. Neither did I do much on tech costs.
Have alook at it and tell me what you think should be changed.(Backup of the old file recommended, could be unplayable)
My main goal was to get the magic into the age that has the proper name for that. I think we can still invent some magic techs to improve magic units later in game but all the respective magics will be now available in the age of magic.

Some smaller changes I also had in mind:
Stoneworks is meant as prereq for workers in case you wonder
Chronicles is early writing(using runes or hieroglyph no alphabet) meant as prereq for watchstones and standing stones
Mysticism should get something like an Elder Council instead
Scouts should built camps not workers
Bloodbowl deserves to be a tech on it's own imo. The Bloodweiser can still be build with the same prereqs though
Libraries should be moved to Monasticism(aslong with Monasteries of course) or better even Literature
Included some more prereq techs for militaryunits
Witchhunters and other Inquisitors should require at least one city having a hostile religion in the civ.(for Witchhunters Chaos obviously)

Every Religion has it's own tech to found now. Just Old ones and Chaos should be open to anybody imo. Maybe we can tweak Old one religion to automatically dissappear in time except for Slann. Chaos will need the Holy Inquisition to be busted:D

Apart from the Oldones and Inquisition thing I can do the changes on my own.

What i mean is havea different tech needed to research elven gods, because i dont like having 2 religeons in my civ if i dont have to as it causes unhappyness, and the AI ALWAYS seems to found old ones AND Elven gods in the same civ. this bugs me alot, so pretty please give elven gods a different required tech:)

Why don't you just wait for others to found it?:p The new techtree has a seperate tech that will only be available to High and Woodelves so no need to rush.

If you mean that only high elves and wood elves can found the elven gods, thats good, i like that. does that mean that only undead, dark elves, chaos dwaves, beastmen, and ind can found ghaos gods? and only the human races can found human gods? i hope so, that would be very cool, and would mean we could have a few more religeons, as the likelyhood of all races needed for all religeons being present in the game would be quite low.

chaos and oldones are still available too all. I would prefer a programming solution to restrict those. Human gods can be founded only by "european" human civs. I not yet sure how we can give araby, ind, cathay and nippon a fitting religion. Dwarven Gods are Dwarf only.

Cathay, Nippon and Ind can have Jinto (same as realworld Shinto)
Araby has thier own personal pantheon, and will kind of be unsuitable as they are the only ones that worship them.
We could 'invent' a new religeon based on the realworld egyptian gods and give it to Araby and Khemri.

Cathay, Nippon and Ind can have Jinto (same as realworld Shinto)
Araby has thier own personal pantheon, and will kind of be unsuitable as they are the only ones that worship them.
We could 'invent' a new religeon based on the realworld egyptian gods and give it to Araby and Khemri.

Well first i don't think Jinto is suitable for Ind as India has very few Shinto's. If there is another religion like Hinduism it would be more suitable but then again like Araby it would be the only one. But then again it is the Mughal King Akabar so it could be a religion like Islam as well, and we could use that for Araby and Khemri.

The more I think about it...
Maybe we should set up the religions like this
Old Ones
Elven Gods
Dwarven Gods
Gork and Mork
Human Gods(all human religions, diversed by uniquebuildings and Units for each civ)

And two antagonists
Worship of Sigmar
Chaos

Hold on, why is Worship of Sigmar an antagonistic religeon?? they aren evil.
I think incorporate Sigmar into the human pantheon and have The Cult of nagash fo vapire counts and Khemri.

Oh, and on the note of Ind: Ind has been ravaged by several religeous civil wars, most notably a civil war where a Chaotic hero discovers that the Indic god is actually a Chaos God, he then converts most of ind to Chaos worship without thier knowing. So ind could be chaos gods also.

I also think that Elven gods, Dwarf Gods, and Human Gods should have better names.

antagonist to chaos but similarily indend to mission and spreading.;)

And I thought you meant Nagash is THE enemy of Khemri why should he be subject of their statereligion now?

Edited post 24

OK, I´ll get this thread back on track and start talking about techs again ;)

Here are my suggestions for changes in the techtree (they are needed to get the right gaps between the possibilities to build new units!)

make the following paths:

Hotforging ->(leads to) Light Armour -> Heavy Armour -> Barding-> Military Training

Monarchy (instead of Feudalism, which is too late) -> Militia (instead of Guilds) -> Military Training (so we can give different prereq techs to Militia Units)

Monster Breeding should need Guilds as second prereq to be researched (so we get some time between Monster_I and Monster_II units)

Gunpowder and the whole tree after it should become available via Alchemy (that´s because of Cannons, Frigates and Galleons being available in Age of Discovery and not in the later Mechanical Age)

OK, I´ll get this thread back on track and start talking about techs again ;)

Here are my suggestions for changes in the techtree (they are needed to get the right gaps between the possibilities to build new units!)

make the following paths:

Hotforging ->(leads to) Light Armour -> Heavy Armour -> Barding-> Military Training



Partly agree I will make them additional AND prereqs alright? I don't want them to follow too quick after another.



Monarchy (instead of Feudalism, which is too late) -> Militia (instead of Guilds) -> Military Training (so we can give different prereq techs to Militia Units)



The problem with that is not all civs will have Militia but we could make it an OR Prereq. Your right though I will have to rework some of that I'm not totally happy myself.


Monster Breeding should need Guilds as second prereq to be researched (so we get some time between Monster_I and Monster_II units)


I think we need another tech as bridge for that. But yes there must be a step between. ideas?


Gunpowder and the whole tree after it should become available via Alchemy (that´s because of Cannons, Frigates and Galleons being available in Age of Discovery and not in the later Mechanical Age)
Hell, yes totally forgot about that! I will make Gunpowder availanble earlier and Cannons. Problem is the rest. It would cut the whole last age off if we make the whole lot available earlier.:( Any ideas to have an elegant solution here? Are handguns much earlier in history than rifles or about the same time?

I'm not a gun expert, but I think handguns came after muskets.

Cannons and projectile lobbing weapons were used before, again I think.

If you want dates I imagine the wiki would help.

I just was thinking of all those pirate movies where besides the swordsfighting I only saw handguns.:D But nevermind I think Rifling should be enough for both Handguns and Rifles. We don't have so many different uint classes in the gunpowderage that we need two techs for them.
The Situation in Ancient and Age of Magic is different though. Especially unorthodox troops like undead need some bridge tech I think. Magic in general. I would be happy to get ideas about that.

In my newest patch I did a new techtree with most of the things I stated before and I graphically changed it. If you´re not happy with what I´ve done, you should have enough space to move around techs and add new ones, but I suggest you use this one as a basis.

Does the new tech tree push religions back a bit Duke?

I should have time to playtest it tomorrow.

I didn´t change anything concerning religions, or do you mean the one by Ploe (because mine is heavily based on it, I didn´t really change a lot).

In my newest patch I did a new techtree with most of the things I stated before and I graphically changed it. If you´re not happy with what I´ve done, you should have enough space to move around techs and add new ones, but I suggest you use this one as a basis.
Did you base it on the current techtree in my patch? Since I included most of your propousals there already! And I changed a lot!

I can´t dl the patch, it says the zip is broken. And I already had finished it 2 hours before you :coffee:

Sorry for letting you do the work twice :( , but I simply had to change it, so I could decide on which prereqs the Unitclasses should have.

And that´s a sucking nasty work, moving around those techs :crazyeye:

I can´t dl the patch, it says the zip is broken. And I already had finished it 2 hours before you :coffee:

Sorry for letting you do the work twice :( , but I simply had to change it, so I could decide on which prereqs the Unitclasses should have.

And that´s a sucking nasty work, moving around those techs :crazyeye:
???
I get the message server out of bandwith but I get that with Kaels FFH patch as well!

And I just checked another time and the file is alright! I can dl it with filezilla. Just wait unitl this serverproblem is solved!

But nevermind I think Rifling should be enough for both Handguns and Rifles. We don't have so many different uint classes in the gunpowderage that we need two techs for them.
The Situation in Ancient and Age of Magic is different though. Especially unorthodox troops like undead need some bridge tech I think. Magic in general. I would be happy to get ideas about that.

Exactly my thoughts yesterday, let´s remove the handguns tech and only keep Rifling.

I set Necromancy as a prereq for Undead units, I remember they had different grades of Necromancy for the Undead in the civ3 mod, so maybe we could use that system and do another Necromancy tech (we already got two with Necromancy and Spell of Awakening).

I´d also like to get rid of the Shiel tech, I don´t think it´s very usefull at all, because we already got two armour grades.

I renamed it to Swordfighting in the patch to not have every unit related to bronze but still available before iron. It's also prereq for Hotforging now.

I htink I must have a look at this to fully understand what you´r trying to say.

Ok just had a look at it. In general your unitprereqs concerning techs don't differ too much from mine. I just set it up in a way the techs don't get spammed with icons. So I suggest we just use my techtree and copypaste the prereqs of my unitinf into your version. (also the full chaosgiant, and Chaoscultist and Acolyte of Sigmar). Should be fine then and your cleaning up of the unitinf isn't in vain also your unitstats don't get lost in case you changed them.

Concerning Magic and Undead I think we both didn't do a good job yet. Think we really need some alternative techs for that and yes I too think we need necromantic upgradetechs like in civ3. Same for Greenskins and very likely chaos too(the letter I made the Culttechs for but didn't put them to use yet.

What do you think?

:lol:

Now you know why I asked which version to use....

There must be a chaos god behind all this:D

Ok just had a look at it. In general your unitprereqs concerning techs don't differ too much from mine. I just set it up in a way the techs don't get spammed with icons. So I suggest we just use my techtree and copypaste the prereqs of my unitinf into your version. (also the full chaosgiant, and Chaoscultist and Acolyte of Sigmar). Should be fine then and your cleaning up of the unitinf isn't in vain also your unitstats don't get lost in case you changed them.

Ok, so it´s decided, I´ll do this right away this evening (so don´t you dare and touch the UnitInfos.xml until I upload my new version tomorrow :p )

I´ll change no other file then the UnitInfos.xml! And I think I´ll also be able to completely sort it until tomorrow.

After that we will need to put missing units into the game, like HE & DE Ancient Archers and Scouts for example, but as I said, wait with this until I upload my new file.

After that Upload I´ll take a break from XML and try to do some Buttons for Techs and Units, as well as Ancient Units for Cathay and Nippon.

BTW, does your NifViewer also crash sometimes when you want to save an edited file?

Oh, and be sure to include the Buttons from my patch into the Version on your comp ;)

Yes the viewer is quite unstable I recommend saving every two or three changes you do and using a different savefile everytime in case a save gets totally screwed up. I will have a look for the buttons. And make a list of Warlordunits we can use before you start on gfx again;)

If stoneworks reveals stone, it should also reveal marble IMO, I would also make Engineering the prereq for irrigation and let irrigationactually do something (like spread irrigation or let people build farms w/o fresh water).

since we got nothing like biology we should put in another tech that gives +1 Food to farms (if we don´t mod the improvements for the next release) "I would suggest crop rotation" or even better give this ability also to irrigation, so it becomes an interesting tech and we don´t have to flood the techtree.

Aprospros, If you don´t mind Ploe, I´d like to change the techtree - wait,wait, I only meant graphics-wise ;)
Move around the techs and add some arrows where no one is etc.

If you agree with this just upload you´re actual version of the TechInfos, wait one day and then you can continue to work with a new version, after I uploaded it.

I would like to keep the techtree a bit for myself if you don't mind(I already started moving techs around). Irrigation I thought already spreads irrigation, well must have missed that I'll check again

Long battles in each era are very nice, but you can´t start fighting until you got mines, roads, fields, horses, iron, copper etc. so at least the costs for those basic techs should be reduced IMO, because I do not only want this mod to have long battles (even better would be everlasting battles - go dwarves! go elves! Smack your heads while I build up my BIG WAAGH! But wait, isn´t this a Griffon with the sign of Sigmar entering my territory, I can´t remember having open....).

I want to have battles earlier as in the vanilla version, where the battles sometimes only start during the middle-ages (after one third of the playtime).

And to higher the amount of rounds or to delete the time-victory wouldn´t solve the problem that I´m sitting in front of my monitor for 3-4 hours only to build up my infrastructure and some units, before I can get to the fun-part of the game.

Well if you play prince you really don't do that but alright I will think about another costnr for early techs.

And of course you already can start fighting with warriors and archers.

Yes, that would be an option indeed :D

But I rather want to see those nice units in nice formations, so I just wait and spice up my lanscape with nice things :p

BTW: Couldn´t we make a Bloodpatch :lol:

I would love to have a bloodpatch!

Duke do you play epic I only need about 17 turns for starting techs normally and the second row is 33 turns with one city size 1. I don't think that's too much.(gamespeed normal) Otherwise I recommend playing quick games(that would at least be easier than changing all the costs again if not more serious issues come forth.

When playtesting I play Quick. Much easier to see more stuff that way.

I play normal. But I think 17 turns for a starting tech is just too much, but well, if you all agrre on this, then I´ll shut up and play quick games

17 turns does seem a tad high. 12-14 is a good number or else the player feels like all he/she is doing is hitting Enter.

Alright I reduce it to 100. And stoneworks to 80.

Good man Ploep.

maybe techs like fishing and the wheel should be also cheaper.

:lol:

Keep after him Duke!

I won´t let loose :D

Damn Duke, you did put that thread in your sig. :p

You're just to lazy to invent early buildings lets have some tribal wars in early game before weapons get stronger. Alright fishing, hunting also 80 but wheel maybe not since stoneworks is already cheap.

Damn Duke, you did put that thread in your sig. :p

Yeah, and then I got spanked by Padma, because my sig was way too long, but it seems like some others also got this kind of PM ;)

@ Ploe: It´s not that I´m lazy, but the early game is really a PITA IMO, It´s way too slow, we added some early techs and also made others more expensive. Yesterday I started a game as Nippon and I noticed that you can´t do anything except pumping out Archers and Axeman, which raises your costs for military units and then my research rate dropped to 20 or 30% and I couldn´t really research fast enough to get out of the devils circle, but maybe I just can´t adopt to the style one has to play with this mod.

But as a conclusion, the early game doesn´t have much to do with Warfare and so I´d like to speed it up as much as possible - I´ll set up a new thread with a poll for that.

Were you playing version 7 or 8?

Version 8.

What about a more detailed report then in the playtestfeedback it would really help me to know what techs are founded in what time. I still think instead of rushing everything we should spice up the ancient era a bit. Two starting settlers are a good idea but I think we need also at least a couple of ancient building with simple effects.