No, this isn't a poll to see if you guys want a Lizardman civ (sorry Hian). Instead we are considering removing the lizardmans water walking ability and replacing it with a bonus in jungles. What do you think?

Baby steps. First the jungle ability and then the civ. :)

I guess I don't understand why lizards would walk on water anyhow. They aren't aligators or water snakes. None of the lizards I've seen can walk on water, but get them in some foliage and your ass is gonna get surprised!

Jungle bonus... Waterwalking wouldn't make sense, they shouldn't go into the ocean, maybe only coast tiles/lakes. Which gives me an idea... You could bring back marsh :D

I'd vote for amphibious and dschungle attack/defense. Water walking is what makes the drown special.

In my opinion water walking is overpowerder for units that are stronger and level easier than the naval units in the game, so i voted for the dshungle bonus...

Definately the jungle bonus, the ai doesn't seem to know how to use water walking very well, plus always looks kinda creepy to me, like a bug or something whenever I see a cute little lizzie traipsing about the coastline.

Along those lines I remember someone mentioning a future island full of lizardment? Before you get to that, is it possible to create some sort of spawning camp in heavy jungle areas for the lizzies?

@woodelf: There's a lizard that can walk on water! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk_lizard)
Not that this makes water walking a good ability for a lizardman though... I still vote for jungle defense. Add merpeople for water walking!

:lol:

I don't think he'd scare me at 90 grams. :p

Kael, All,

Yeah ! Lizardmen, kings of jungles !!! :king:

Of course, no water walking. A def/off bonus in jungle seems better. AI civ don't use water walking well. As (i don't remember his name), water walking is more adapted for Octopus units, such as the drown.

Woodelf, i agree with you : baby steeps ;)
One day lizardmen would rule the jungle. :king:

The Frog, avatar of Lizardmen God !

I voted for the jungle bonuses. It would be cool if they could use rivers in a more substantial way, like x2 movement or something, as well.

I mentioned before that the barb lizardmen having that water-walking ability early in the game before you can get fireballs made it tough, particularly if you had a body of water inside your civ. The lizardmen (and later the lizard rangers) could mass without being touched then attack. Or just sit there waiting for you to make a mistake.

I also think you should get the animal killing bonus against them. Alright, they aren't really animals, but close to it. ;)

The lizzies shouldn't be able to walk in oceanic tiles. Definitely yes on the jungle bonus. Perhaps an amphbious penalty removal, or even fresh water lake moves.

Also something interesting worth noting (IIRMMMC*) ... don't lizardmen have to keep themselves nice and moist? Perhaps as an offset to their bonuses, they should suffer damage in deserts. Perhaps they don't heal very quickly in other not-so-moist environments?

I also think you should get the animal killing bonus against them. Alright, they aren't really animals, but close to it.

They are far more 'man' than beast. They live in communities, make tools, speak a language ... etc etc ...

*think D&D...

definetly jungle bonus, those lizardmen killed my queen ships easily in .12...

Well, I liked the water walking, but IF you want to get rid of it, why not give them a jungle and desert bonus?
Lizards are cold blooded and therefore more active in warmer regions.

Whenever I think of lizardmans, I imagine them as Aragonians from Morrowind and Oblivion. You know, Black Marsh region, full of swamps and jungles, which was hard to conquer and control for imperials. So I would give them jungle bonuses, and also amphibious promotion, to compensate their water breathing ability, but remove water walking. It should stay drown specific.

well Lizards Arent always jungle based what about bonuses for Jungles and Deserts

well Lizards Arent always jungle based what about bonuses for Jungles and Deserts

That's a great idea!! :cool:

I think maybe the "Lizard" men are envisioned to be more like "Reptile" men - snakes, crocodiles, frogs (yeah, I know they're amphibians), salamanders (not the fire-breathing variety), the kind of creatures that mostly hang out in warm, shady, damp areas - like jungles.

Yeap, I envision them as aragonians (water breathing, but it would be represented as amphibious capabilities not as water walking, then immunity to disease and definitely jungle bonuses)

I hate the Lizardmen going out, and killing my fishing boats, and this is before I had any other ships, so I could not even defend them :(
Give them a bonus in jungle (I would say Marsh, that's that's gone now)

Maybe bonus at Floodplains as well.

Baby steps. First the jungle ability and then the civ. :)

I guess I don't understand why lizards would walk on water anyhow. They aren't aligators or water snakes. None of the lizards I've seen can walk on water, but get them in some foliage and your ass is gonna get surprised!

Bright day
Master of Magic oposed to Warhammer. Jungle and amphibious for me, but maybe they can get giant turtle?

I think that the lizardmen should get a bonus ATTACKING in jungle, not defending. It would topple the statagy of just putting a few good defenders on choice tiles and just letting the barbs kill themselves on them.
I'd force you to kill them first!

From the Lizardmans that i know of from other fantasy games and stories. The Lizardman Tribes always skillful at climbing the trees and the lizardman tribes always like and hunt in the forest and jungles. They don't like Humans, and they don't like some other tribes in the jungle as well. They don't usually becomn aggressive, unless you or someone else declare war against them.

From the Lizardmans that i know of from other fantasy games and stories. The Lizardman Tribes always skillful at climbing the trees and the lizardman tribes always like and hunt in the forest and jungles. They don't like Humans, and they don't like some other tribes in the jungle as well. They don't usually becomn aggressive, unless you or someone else declare war against them.

how about giving ability to move through forest like elves.

I voted for "jungle defense", althoug I would prefer a "Jungle Attack" promotion (well... they're barbarians, right ?) , and I whould add double move in jungles, so that their 2pts move is not wasted. Amphibious is a good idea too.

The Lizardmen made improvements nearly impossible to keep on raging barbarians early on, but I can't help feeling I'll miss the worry about the seas... are there going to be any barbarian monster water units? I keep hoping to sight krakens or sea serpents roaming around (I don't even see barb boats and I always play raging barbs).

The trouble with water walking was that ships and land units weren't balanced against each other, so a lizardman ranger coming out of the blue (pardon the pun) would sink any boat that accidently wandered too close to land.

I agree that I ran into some hooplah when the solo lizardmen came up and vanquished my Queen's barge. The navy units need a little fleshing out so that they could soundly tromp such single-commando units, though I wouldn't want all waterwalking taken from lizards altogether. If there was some way for them to move significantly slower on water tiles; 1 step/round maximum (even with bonus movement rate) that would greatly balance their amphibious nature.

Ideally though, the naval units need balancing so that ships are far more powerful than standard land units, being that they're massive vessels of war and all. That keeps amphibious units useful in hassling smaller ships in large numbers, and on par with other land units, but not battleship chomping juggernaughts.

Waterwalking made little sense for me, anyhow.

Could it just be -50% against naval units, or -50% coastal attack?

are land units supposed to pose a threat to sea units? if not, you could just triple sea unit power

i remember that water 2 sorc gives water-walking, right? so all this discussion could apply to other units as well

Yeah, but who is going to charge a boat with a mage? Unless he's a flesh golem water mage, like my were-Hemah from awhile back. He was annoying cause I always had to load him onto ships individually.

I agree that having the Lizardman units have water walking is annoying, and seems a bit much... but then, there are so few Water based units as is... Would it be possible to allow the water walking spell to be granted to them if they are in a tile when a mage casts it? Kind of like awakening ancestral abilities, and allowing the water walking spell to be a little more functional(not that it isn't useful as is...). It should be technical possible.. and would add an interesting "upgrade" feature.

Cheers!

How about allowing them to get the WW promotion when leveling ? For example, they could start with a promotion that allows them to learn WW (so that WW remains unreachable for most units), and upon learning WW they would loose this promotion (to free up a bit of space in the promotion list area).