Please use this thread to post any recommendations you have for balnce issues.

The free tech on Education can come very, very early to a lucky civ. Too early or did we decide it wasn't?

The free tech on Education can come very, very early to a lucky civ. Too early or did we decide it wasn't?

Its a good question, it was initially on writing but I moved it up because it seemed to late. Lets get some feedback from players here as to which one it should be on.

Flavor-wise education seems better.

Kuriotates currently almost always get Holy Cities for the later religions in a settlement, which utterly screws them. Settlements are barred from getting the Great Prophet wonders and they can't build temples on their own, so spreading the religions is a real problem.

The best solution would just be to block settlements from becoming a Holy City. Admittedly that means a Kuriotate Holy City will always be a core city (something the designers wanted to avoid), but on the other hand even if you allowed temples, acolytes, and GP wonders at settlements, it'd still be very nearly impossible to spread a religion from a settlement Holy City due to how long it takes to build anything with -75% hammers.

Since one rarely gets enough mana to build more than four or five mana nodes, I suggest that ai civs value any additional techs that teach mana node construction after the first (or perhaps second) less.
Alternatively, each civ could value one particular tech a bit more to fit thier theme, and the others less than their actual beaker worth. Especially since the ai ain't geniuses with mages anyway.

edit: I was thinking value as in diplomacy, but the same could apply to research goals as well.

one general rant:
orthus ... AFAIK orthus is hardcoded to appear in the turn set in the config file (STD: 75). in marathon games that makes him allmost invincible, as almost everyone only has warriors, so in case he spawns near you, you are as good as dead, might it be possible make it dependant upon gamespeed ?

Its a good question, it was initially on writing but I moved it up because it seemed to late. Lets get some feedback from players here as to which one it should be on.

I think its too early personally. I liked it in vanilla where its mid game.

Perhaps it should be moved sideways to someother tech that no civ starts with. 4 civs get ancient chants as a starting tech. which gives them a huge head start on getting free tech. i believe education is still on same path as a.c. so they would still have the advantage?

Should captured animals be able to attack and capture cities? I have 3 Giant Spiders roaming the wild obliterating the AI at this moment. I wiped out the Kuriotates and the Luchuirp already and another civ is close to extinction. This is all on Monarch so I don't think the AI is overmatched.

At first I was thrilled to see them overrun the cities easily, now I'm simply not sure...

Maybe they could get -25% versus cities or something?

Maybe they could get -25% versus cities or something?

:hmm:, that's doable. :D

This way they could overrun warrior held cities, but not archers hopefully.

Are dragons supposed to be melee units? I was quite surprised when my Bambur had 100% combat odds against Acheron the Red Dragon, simply because he had city raider III, Shock II and Combat V.

Are dragons supposed to be melee units? I was quite surprised when my Bambur had 100% combat odds against Acheron the Red Dragon, simply because he had city raider III, Shock II and Combat V.

Yeah, we were talking about making a new unitcombat, "beast" or "monster" or some such for dragons, the kraken, etc.

Another issue with archeron: dragon's are supposed to be immune to magic - but archeron lost 84% from his health to a pillar of flames and was then easy prey.

I would also suggest making the dragons immune to diseases (sorry if they already are).

I think all of these are balance vs. bug issues in 0.13. I am playing the elves on a huge panagea map at noble setting and raging barbs.

1. The very first orc spearmen to show up were all level 3 (***). It seems a little early for that - yr. 130. Most later are back to level 1.

2. In the yr 150 I was shocked to see a Worg Rider show up. I think this is too early for a Tier 2 unit to appear. You can handle him if he attacks the city, but with 3 movement points, he can easily take out your improvements. Unless you got really lucky with techs from goodie huts (I didn't), you have nothing that can handle these barb units in the early game.

3. I see we are back to being able to get more than 100 XP just against the barbs again. I have no feeling about this either way, but kinda liked the 100XP cap previously.

4. What's up with Orthus? He showed up quickly with an entourage including a stack of 20 spearmen and goblins. I thought that would be lights out, but here's what he did: systematically pillaged every one of my improvements including the roads. No chance for me to attack him with elve warriors (even with lots of XP) or scouts. Then, strangely, he has just parked himself on a forest/hills square for 20 turns (it is now yr. 185). He has not attacked the city, but it will be impossible for me to build any improvements with him sitting there. It will be a long time before I can get a second city or a unit strong enough to kill him on that tile. I would have to throw my whole army at him, and even that probably would not do the job. I thought Orthus was supposed to head straight for your city and attack, not pull this stunt. :cry: Anyway, this change in AI is smart for the computer, but kills the human player.

5. Has the AI for raging barbs been messed with? They were tough before, but they are insane now on the Noble setting. Can't tell if other civs are getting this kind of intense attack (one is Infernal, so he is free), but they don't have Orthus on their doorstep.

I think the Giant Spider is too strong.... in 0.12 i feared bears, but at least I could see them ! In one game one spider destroyed most of my units travelling from one city to another, as they moved out of the border...

The Giant Spiders should appear a little later in the game... Or have a smaller combat value...

I also noted that Orthus stood next to my capital, not atacking me, stood there in a forest fortified, problaby because there werent anything to pillage lol

I think all of these are balance vs. bug issues in 0.13. I am playing the elves on a huge panagea map at noble setting and raging barbs.

1. The very first orc spearmen to show up were all level 3 (***). It seems a little early for that - yr. 130. Most later are back to level 1.

2. In the yr 150 I was shocked to see a Worg Rider show up. I think this is too early for a Tier 2 unit to appear. You can handle him if he attacks the city, but with 3 movement points, he can easily take out your improvements. Unless you got really lucky with techs from goodie huts (I didn't), you have nothing that can handle these barb units in the early game.

The game doesn't spawn them this early. This is from the AI using the Train Worg Rider ability to make a goblin and a wolf into a Worg Rider. The AI isn't trained to bring them together, so this is a fairly infrequent event but I love that the Ai uses it.

3. I see we are back to being able to get more than 100 XP just against the barbs again. I have no feeling about this either way, but kinda liked the 100XP cap previously.

The 100xp cap should still be there. Maybe you are a raider civ? They would get an xp per combat regardless of the cap.

4. What's up with Orthus? He showed up quickly with an entourage including a stack of 20 spearmen and goblins. I thought that would be lights out, but here's what he did: systematically pillaged every one of my improvements including the roads. No chance for me to attack him with elve warriors (even with lots of XP) or scouts. Then, strangely, he has just parked himself on a forest/hills square for 20 turns (it is now yr. 185). He has not attacked the city, but it will be impossible for me to build any improvements with him sitting there. It will be a long time before I can get a second city or a unit strong enough to kill him on that tile. I would have to throw my whole army at him, and even that probably would not do the job. I thought Orthus was supposed to head straight for your city and attack, not pull this stunt. :cry: Anyway, this change in AI is smart for the computer, but kills the human player.

Thats Chalid's new AI code. The AI now treats its heroes like heroes and wont be throwing them away so easily. Be afraid.

5. Has the AI for raging barbs been messed with? They were tough before, but they are insane now on the Noble setting. Can't tell if other civs are getting this kind of intense attack (one is Infernal, so he is free), but they don't have Orthus on their doorstep.

Nope, I havent changed anythong for that.

Kael,

I read the last post about Orthus and his army. That's right...an intelligent barb hero. Chalid's AI is not a gift of gods for players !!! But fun, very fun !!!

You add the Dwarf warrior for Luchuirps. Why not to Khazad ? There are also Dwarf, right ?

The Frog.

Kael,

I read the last post about Orthus and his army. That's right...an intelligent barb hero. Chalid's AI is not a gift of gods for players !!! But fun, very fun !!!

You add the Dwarf warrior for Luchuirps. Why not to Khazad ? There are also Dwarf, right ?

The Frog.

The civ hero for the Luchuirp is BArnaxus, he is a Golem. The Khazad have a dwarf hero, Maros.

Kael,

I know about Hero Maros and Branaxus. About Branaxus, it's a very interesting hero: the more he is get combat promo, the more your golem army is strong !!! Awesome for your foe !!!:goodjob:

It's about UU Dwarf Warrior. Only Luchuirps can built it. Why not Khazad ? They are also dwarf....
It's a question, not a bad critic.:) Just to understand.....

The Frog.

Kael,

I know about Hero Maros and Branaxus. About Branaxus, it's a very interesting hero: the more he is get combat promo, the more your golem army is strong !!! Awesome for your foe !!!:goodjob:

It's about UU Dwarf Warrior. Only Luchuirps can built it. Why not Khazad ? They are also dwarf....
It's a question, not a bad critic.:) Just to understand.....

The Frog.

I see, misunderstood you before. The reason is because the Luchuirp dwarven warrior is different than the one the Khazad will have. The Luchuirp isnt able to upgrade to an "axeman" (which for them is a wood goelm) while the Khazad dwarven warrior will be able to upgrade to an axeman.

I see, misunderstood you before. The reason is because the Luchuirp dwarven warrior is different than the one the Khazad will have. The Luchuirp isnt able to upgrade to an "axeman" (which for them is a wood goelm) while the Khazad dwarven warrior will be able to upgrade to an axeman.

Kael,

Right. Understood.
Meanwhile, it's a pity to not have a true dwarf warrior for Khazad. More than a civ, it's a race (like elf for exemple). Furthemore, when you are playing against Khazad, hunting some dwarves for particular slaves in also interesting.
Why not a Khazad Warrior UU (using nearly the same picture as the Dwarf Warrior one)?
It's just an idea...:)

The Frog.

Kael,

Right. Understood.
Meanwhile, it's a pity to not have a true dwarf warrior for Khazad. More than a civ, it's a race (like elf for exemple). Furthemore, when you are playing against Khazad, hunting some dwarves for particular slaves in also interesting.
Why not a Khazad Warrior UU (using nearly the same picture as the Dwarf Warrior one)?
It's just an idea...:)

The Frog.

Definitly. The Khazad is the civ we are currently working on and plan to highlight in 0.14 (shh.. dont tell anyone, its a secret).

My scout ability to see spiders was no good because when they 'saw' spiders, it was too late and spiders attacked my scout.
(But, second time puny lightbriger of AI attacked spider (Or spider attacked him) and spider left with only 0,6 str and my scout defeated and captured it)
I like that animal handling gives +25% vs animals, I was going to suggest that ;)

Suggestion: giant spiders can be sacced to build a 'spider infestation' since they can enter neutral cities :) would give a - to happiness/health to give a chance at slowing down a neighboring cities develpment without DOW at teh sacrifice of a good fighting unit.

I just wanted to ask if it's intentionall that only the order can build the oracle. Now that the wonder is moved to a public tech i would suggest that everybody can build it.

I just wanted to ask if it's intentionall that only the order can build the oracle. Now that the wonder is moved to a public tech i would suggest that everybody can build it.

Good point, I'll change it.

th settlement for kuriotates need to be able to build work boats if you have no cities on the ocean and build a settlement there to get the oasters or fish or crabs you end up not able to use the settlement to get them because you cant create workboats

Can you mark the Barbariens as Evil?? My summoned Law Bringers refuse to attack them - that doesn't make much sense flavour wise.

Can you mark the Barbariens as Evil?? My summoned Law Bringers refuse to attack them - that doesn't make much sense flavour wise.

Yeap, they will be evil in todays patch.

th settlement for kuriotates need to be able to build work boats if you have no cities on the ocean and build a settlement there to get the oasters or fish or crabs you end up not able to use the settlement to get them because you cant create workboats

I think the players are going to have to adjust to this with their planning for their first 3 cities. If I allow settlements to make any repeatable resource the AI and governors will spam that resource.

I think the players are going to have to adjust to this with their planning for their first 3 cities. If I allow settlements to make any repeatable resource the AI and governors will spam that resource.

The AI will only build Work Boats if it actually has resources to hook up, and it would build them at the core cities if it could since there's a 20:1 time difference there. With the way it is now, if you don't start close to the coast, you HAVE to either get coastal resources from trade or delay building your third city indefinitely, which is crippling.

Your stated purpose with the settlements was to use them to gather resources. Right now, they can't gather water resources.

EDIT: Actually the way it is now is worse for the AI, because the AI follows the "blue circle" recommendations for city sites exclusively and those recommendations take into account water resources. At least if it could build work boats it could hook those up.

yeah i couldnt get to the coast right away when i finally did i found a good site with one fish and one clam i built a settlement there and poof i couldnt grab the fish or clam

I played against OO. They were more powerful than I was but I found Destroy Undead magic. Man, that is POWERFUL! Too powerful, maybe, it killed dozens of drowns and dozens were crippled to be easy target. But I would just change it so that it can't kill unit, just reduce it to 0.1 str.

Second suggestion is related: Could you change cure disease and destroy undead spells? Both are lvl 2 life spells. I would want that any civ and religion can use Cure Disease, and that only Order and such religions priests can Destroy undead. It seems better and more logical.

Agree whit TheJopa

I played against OO. They were more powerful than I was but I found Destroy Undead magic. Man, that is POWERFUL! Too powerful, maybe, it killed dozens of drowns and dozens were crippled to be easy target. But I would just change it so that it can't kill unit, just reduce it to 0.1 str.

Just reduce it to 0.1 str - so not only would they be practically destroyed, but you'd also get free experience for slaughtering them?-)

another kuriotate problem maybe if you build a settlement that gets overlaped by another city the settlement thats only suppose to work one square can now work outside that one square loop. So like in my game in island not alot of opening room so i jsut made so settlements to grab resoruces outside my cties present range of three squares then the cities grew and the settlements where then connected to the cities and could work the extra squares.

Has my explenation confused anyone hope not

Whats up whit the Octopus Overlords Advanced Temples ? They both suck... one gives -1 unhappy face (good), -10% gold (bad), -10% culture (bad and controversial, as octopus are the most cultural religion) and -1 trade routes on all coastar tiles (really bad o_0), the other gives -1 unhappy face (good), -10% gold (bad), -10% culture (bad and controversial, as octopus are the most cultural religion) and -1 trade routes (bad)...

They both suck and they are almos the same thing... Its going to stay this way ? Because now they aren´t worth building

Whats up whit the Octopus Overlords Advanced Temples ? They both suck... one gives -1 unhappy face (good), -10% gold (bad), -10% culture (bad and controversial, as octopus are the most cultural religion) and -1 trade routes on all coastar tiles (really bad o_0), the other gives -1 unhappy face (good), -10% gold (bad), -10% culture (bad and controversial, as octopus are the most cultural religion) and -1 trade routes (bad)...

They both suck and they are almos the same thing... Its going to stay this way ? Because now they aren´t worth building


Read the Civilopedia (if it is already put) they give advantages that are handed out by python and are therfor not listed in the window showing their abilities.

another kuriotate problem maybe if you build a settlement that gets overlaped by another city the settlement thats only suppose to work one square can now work outside that one square loop. So like in my game in island not alot of opening room so i jsut made so settlements to grab resoruces outside my cties present range of three squares then the cities grew and the settlements where then connected to the cities and could work the extra squares.

Has my explenation confused anyone hope not


Right now settlements can work all tiles like a normal non-kuriotate city when they get them into their cultural radius (obelisk) i would prefer if we only let tehm work the inner ring, but well see. The last word about settlements is not yet spoken.

Read the Civilopedia (if it is already put) they give advantages that are handed out by python and are therfor not listed in the window showing their abilities.

Oh, I didn´t know that, thanks

I had a city with a Harlequin defender with Subdue Animal. The AI attacked with a stack of 8 summoned tigers, and I gained 8 new kitty cats.

Well all weekend I have played grigori on emperor, emp is allways hard and depends a bit on luck (good start resources, neighbors etc.) at least for me it does but I did nto have a sing game where I did very well, I might be holding on above last place but I never got to a point where I could pull a come from behind move, just hang on to my small empire and try to turtle up with my adventurers.

Maybe my skillz are not leet enough or maybe I needed to make it past turn 400 but in general I got my ass handed to me. I should note that I am a wuss so if I am losing I dont usualy fight to the last city or anything just as when I am winning my a big margain I quit.

So yeah, do they get great later or is it just a 'hard' civ? They don't get any non-adventurere hero right? They are cool and allow a fun flexibility but unlike the other heroes they cannot get you out of a tech-imbalanced war since even a level 10 axeman can still get killed by a crosbowman.

By comparison playing malakim I usualy went for order (version .12) and got the order hero and the caster one from fanatasicm and was abel to hold of tech superior foes because the heroes had a lot of oomph.

I suppose you could do a decent early rush with your first edventurer and carefuly chosen first techs to take a city or two from a neighbor but with the spiders and such I rarely saw a neighbors cities till they had decent defenders.

So yeah, don't know that they are busted but I sure didn't find the trick to dealing with their negatives at this difficulty level. The bonuses the religions get at just very very strong.

This mod just keeps getting better and better. You guys are awesome and I really appreciate your hard work with both the mod, but also taking the time to reply to rookies like me and my suggestions/issues.

Here are a couple of things that came up playing as Flauros/Calabrim on a huge panagea map on noble with raging barbs:

1. There are two civs (Charadon and Jonas) with the BAR trait. How does the 50% rule work in this case? The reason I say this is because they are far and away ahead on points from the next civ - me, but the barbs have not declared war on them. Maybe it should look at the next civ not with the BAR trait.

2. In yr. 120 one of Jonas' units a WORG RIDER showed up outside my civ while I was getting pounded by barbs. Think about it...isn't this a bit early to have a Worg Rider? He cannot do the combine with a wolf trick because he cannot capture a wolf. To get Horseback Riding, a stable, build the rider and show up on the other side of the map in yr. 120 seems odd. Maybe a goodie hut would help, but I still think it would be tough to get a Rider that soon.

3. I started getting an onslaught of barbarian chariots around yr. 735. This seemed a little early to me and I certainly had nothing with which to deal with them yet in terms of power or movement. I did have horsemen, but not strong enough and the bonus against mounted units didn't help my Moroi that much. Maybe they should come a little later. Interestingly, in this game not too many Lizard men or Orc Axe men - just chariots.

4. I think the Treants helping out in Leaves civs might be a bit too much. I have Leaves and they are great in helping defend against invading barbs. But, they show up almost every turn, sometimes more than one at a time. I have not attacked another Leaves civ, but I am guessing that will be annoying if faced with this many Treants.

5. I think one of the great moments in FFh for me was the first time I witnessed my captured Giant Spider attack a barb goblin. First, he projectile vomits on him something that looks like cream of mushroom soup, and then proceeds to tap on the poor goblin's head with his front legs until he is dead. Great stuff, but....

I have found the first annoyance with this mod in this version.

I am in the heat of battle with Basium and I get this message "A Dancing Bear and a Giant Spider Have Escaped." OK, that's pretty neat. Get a ranger to capture them again and put them back in their carnival pens. However, this stopped being fun on the 5-6 time as it repeated every 10 - 15 turns/years. One escape is enough, thank you. :D

Is there anyway to replace "archer of the leaves" with "elven archer" once the play is able to build them on a city-to-city basis?

If its not feasible to swap Elven Archer for Archer of the Leaves then you should atleast change something other than cost about them. I'd actually prefer cost to be the same but for the Elven Archers to move faster or something.

It just feels kinda "eh" having two archers that are exactly the same.

This mod just keeps getting better and better. You guys are awesome and I really appreciate your hard work with both the mod, but also taking the time to reply to rookies like me and my suggestions/issues.

Here are a couple of things that came up playing as Flauros/Calabrim on a huge panagea map on noble with raging barbs:

1. There are two civs (Charadon and Jonas) with the BAR trait. How does the 50% rule work in this case? The reason I say this is because they are far and away ahead on points from the next civ - me, but the barbs have not declared war on them. Maybe it should look at the next civ not with the BAR trait.

2. In yr. 120 one of Jonas' units a WORG RIDER showed up outside my civ while I was getting pounded by barbs. Think about it...isn't this a bit early to have a Worg Rider? He cannot do the combine with a wolf trick because he cannot capture a wolf. To get Horseback Riding, a stable, build the rider and show up on the other side of the map in yr. 120 seems odd. Maybe a goodie hut would help, but I still think it would be tough to get a Rider that soon.

You dont have to own the wolf to do the combine trick. Its the orcish version of hunting, so they can get very early worg riders.

3. I started getting an onslaught of barbarian chariots around yr. 735. This seemed a little early to me and I certainly had nothing with which to deal with them yet in terms of power or movement. I did have horsemen, but not strong enough and the bonus against mounted units didn't help my Moroi that much. Maybe they should come a little later. Interestingly, in this game not too many Lizard men or Orc Axe men - just chariots.

4. I think the Treants helping out in Leaves civs might be a bit too much. I have Leaves and they are great in helping defend against invading barbs. But, they show up almost every turn, sometimes more than one at a time. I have not attacked another Leaves civ, but I am guessing that will be annoying if faced with this many Treants.

The chance is 5%, 15% if the nearby city has a shadowed vale in it.

5. I think one of the great moments in FFh for me was the first time I witnessed my captured Giant Spider attack a barb goblin. First, he projectile vomits on him something that looks like cream of mushroom soup, and then proceeds to tap on the poor goblin's head with his front legs until he is dead. Great stuff, but....

Thats webbing. :)

I have found the first annoyance with this mod in this version.

I am in the heat of battle with Basium and I get this message "A Dancing Bear and a Giant Spider Have Escaped." OK, that's pretty neat. Get a ranger to capture them again and put them back in their carnival pens. However, this stopped being fun on the 5-6 time as it repeated every 10 - 15 turns/years. One escape is enough, thank you. :D

Hmm... I haved the chance with version c (from 20 in 10000 to 10 in 10000). It sound like I may need to do it again. Its supposed to happen in 1 out of 5 games, not 5 times a game.

Hmm... I haved the chance with version c (from 20 in 10000 to 10 in 10000). It sound like I may need to do it again. Its supposed to happen in 1 out of 5 games, not 5 times a game.

Determine on turn one how many times (the higher of 0 and 1D6-4, maybe?) a beast escape may happen for each player. Then test for an escape only if that number hasn't been reached yet?

Hmm... I haved the chance with version c (from 20 in 10000 to 10 in 10000). It sound like I may need to do it again. Its supposed to happen in 1 out of 5 games, not 5 times a game.

Unless there is a code bug this is fine, if someone gets unlucky it's just one of a thousand unlucky things that can happen to you in Civ.

In my last game I had an escape for the first time, I re-nabbed it right away so I did not see: does the animal then stand in the same spot and not attack like when cultural borders get them? Does it rampage? I would think rampage or run for the nearest open square would be best if it possible to get the ai to do that.

Unless there is a code bug this is fine, if someone gets unlucky it's just one of a thousand unlucky things that can happen to you in Civ.

In my last game I had an escape for the first time, I re-nabbed it right away so I did not see: does the animal then stand in the same spot and not attack like when cultural borders get them? Does it rampage? I would think rampage or run for the nearest open square would be best if it possible to get the ai to do that.

With "C" they rampage.

Its a good question, it was initially on writing but I moved it up because it seemed to late. Lets get some feedback from players here as to which one it should be on.

My experience is that it is too early. I've seen Education discovered prior to turn 10 in a couple games. Because it is so early in the tree, it is possible to have it get popped from a hut.

Just tried the Balseraph once again and I noticed that Acrobats, unlike Hunters, can't carry a bird. Why is that?

Just tried the Balseraph once again and I noticed that Acrobats, unlike Hunters, can't carry a bird. Why is that?

ITs a mistake, it will be fixed in patch D.

Just played as Kurioates with Fellowship of the Leaf. Two Problems:

- Bloom works on improved tiles - after some time you have ancient forests with mines, towns or farms. This even works on Ressources and leads to very very powerful tiles.

- It's possible to sneak tempels into settelments with priests. Very powerful combination with the spiral minaret.

Just played as Kurioates with Fellowship of the Leaf. Two Problems:

- Bloom works on improved tiles - after some time you have ancient forests with mines, towns or farms. This even works on Ressources and leads to very very powerful tiles.


I am compaling about that for ages..



- It's possible to sneak tempels into settelments with priests. Very powerful combination with the spiral minaret.

not powerfull at all. This gold from the minaret is calculated in the settlement and mutliplied there by the nice factor of 100%-100% = 0%. So no gain for you.

K, players wont be able to bloom on improved tiles in patch D.

Balance recommendation: Allow Kuriotate settlements a slight (10-20%) amount of science. Even with as many Villages as I could support with my 3 core cities, all with libraries, etc, there was no way for me to even come close to competing for techs around the 4000 to 8000 cost level on a huge Pangaea map. I got a huge head start in the tech race, pulling no less than 6 techs out of huts early on, being the first to found Kilmorph and the Order - but by around turn 200 I was hopelessly behind in the tech race.

Btw if we are already at it. Vitalize works on flood plains..
Do we want to skip that as for spring, or limit it to vitalizing it up to plains?

Ive noticed that you cannot capture workers that are in cities and when you attack them on the map, they appear at the spot where your unit originated. This allows any near by enemies to take it away the next turn and it flees...
Also when I took over a barbarian worker, it wanted to heal for 4 turns to get back up to full strength?

Were spiders supposed to get their own cage in the carnival? And did you want animals to have the ability to get city raider?

Ive noticed that you cannot capture workers that are in cities and when you attack them on the map, they appear at the spot where your unit originated. This allows any near by enemies to take it away the next turn and it flees...

I want to make a global capture function (right now there is different code under each way to capture a unit). When I do that I'll try to put the captured unit with the attacking unit if possible.

Also when I took over a barbarian worker, it wanted to heal for 4 turns to get back up to full strength?

Ill take the damage off of the worker.

Were spiders supposed to get their own cage in the carnival?

They dont require a carnival. A spider pen doesnt provide happiness and culture, instead it produces silk.

And did you want animals to have the ability to get city raider?

Yes.

couple small things

not sure if this is on purpose but werewolf doesnt spread to units in walled cities it spreads fine to unwalled ones just not walled ones

also noticed the worker prob in cities

Should lizardmen be able to become werewolfs? Seems Odd. Maybe a werelizard LOL use same graphics as lizard man but with claws instead of weapons.

not powerfull at all. This gold from the minaret is calculated in the settlement and mutliplied there by the nice factor of 100%-100% = 0%. So no gain for you.

Strange, everytime i build a temple my net money gain went up a little bit. But i'm not sure it was always one gold.

Strange, everytime i build a temple my net money gain went up a little bit. But i'm not sure it was always one gold.

Maybe that was religion spread? Did you have the holy city wonder built by then?

Maybe that was religion spread? Did you have the holy city wonder built by then?

Yes - but the settlements were already part of the fellowship...

Hmm... I haved the chance with version c (from 20 in 10000 to 10 in 10000). It sound like I may need to do it again. Its supposed to happen in 1 out of 5 games, not 5 times a game.


I think you wrote in another thread you changed it again, haven't you? Because with p=10/10000=0.001 the probability of having at least one escape in e.g. 500 turns is actually 40%...

I think you wrote in another thread you changed it again, haven't you? Because with p=10/10000=0.001 the probability of having at least one escape in e.g. 500 turns is actually 40%...

Yeah, it was 20 out of 10,000 in 0.13b, 10 out of 10,000 in 0.13c and it will be 3 out of 100,000 in 0.13d.

AI flooded me with about 20 tigers (I wonder how he got so many?). I used my rangers to defeat and capture them, most of them were level 5 or so, with few combat promotions. When I captured them, they still had promotions, but they were level 1, so they could get their next promotion with just 2 exp. I gave them combat 5 and city raider 3 with just few battles. Well, they are weak anyway so it doesn't matter but I think it isn't right

I got attacked by tigers from the Balseraphs, and sent my Assassin (former hunter) to catch them. I can't recall if the idea of letting the Balseraphs breed animals in captivity ever came to fruition. If so, that would perhaps explain the abundance of tigers.

The tigers a summoned by the AIs Piests of the leaves. They cast that spell "Summon Tiger" every turn when possible....

I noticed a change in combat today in my game playing as Grigori on a huge Lakes map with raging barbs.

Previously when, for example, a stack of barbs arrived with 6 goblins and 1 orc spearman I would select my warrior to attack. This strategy worked because I was mainly worried about the orc spearman, who mainly wants to pillage improvements, and not the goblins who are weak and easily defeated by city defenders. So, select the warrior, kill the orc spearman and let the goblins attack the city.

Today, I discovered this strategy no longer works.

When I select my warrior to attack, only the goblins are targeted. I have to kill off the 6 goblins in the stack first before I can take down the orc spearman or my improvement is gone.

Maybe the AI was changed, I'm not sure, but I thought the defenders always selected the strongest defender to defend the tile - in this case, the orc spearman, not the goblins.

Is this a fair change, if it is a change having selective defenders by the AI rather than the strongest ones? When my city/stack is attacked, I cannot choose the defender - I think it is automatically the strongest one.

I applaud Chalid (I think he is the culprit) for tweaking the AI as far as attacks go. I have noticed rather than a stack of 15 spearmen and goblins marching against my city to be duly slaughtered, they are splitting into three groups of five and taking out improvements as noted above.

You are a true rat, Chalid!:p

But, what about the issue of having the strongest defender defending the tile?

I suspect in your case you had either promoted your unit on shock or the goblins were promoted on shock/combat. This way the gobbos were the stronger defenders (goblins are no melee troops so shock does not work against them)..

For choosing yourself. We modified it that not only the strength defined who defends but so that Heroes and Mages come later in the line (when the strength is equal normal units would defend first) and Summons come earlier to defend.


The AI has not yet been tweacked to change the way it attacks (i have only dealt with the way mages are moved by the AI, but am not yet satisfied with the way they do). But i'm planning on implementing some task force based attack algorithms for the AI farther down the road.

You are a true rat, Chalid!

Thanks for the compliment! You know.. my goal is that experienced games have to switch to Warlord to beat the AI ;)

Is there any way to build a priest without the required resource? I had to wait until I built Sphener before I could heal any of my units in my current game. Perhaps if you could also upgrade experienced adepts or could build inferior priests without the resource? Or perhaps move the resource requirement up to high priests, like the arcane units which require reagents.

Seems like you should better make war early for that Incenses. :D In fact that is the reason for strategic resources ...

Re the heroes: After a few games on noble, it seems that the Baron is a lot stronger than the other hero who comes with feral bonds. the other one is more mobile and is a fine pillager, but then a horse archer can do that almost as well. Bannor is very strong given how early he comes out; I have twice used him to take out the dragon. and by the time I get Typhoid Mary she hasn't been much use, but then I haven't made a beeline to alchemy.
FWIW I have been much more successful with the elves and dwarves (the non-golem ones) than the other civs; I don;t know whether this is because they are stronger or just because they come with a theme that suggests how to play them, while I dont really understand how to play the others.

The upgrade form Adept to mages is a bit fast. You have those 5 XP nearly always when you built them (so you could as well allow building Mages),
Id say increase that to 10XP/level 4.

Then the extra xp you gain on upgrade to mage boost you considerably (especially if you upgrade late) so that you can Archieve an Archmage in reasonable time (level 6 seem ok for them).

But High priests are a pain as Priests do not get the XP boost mages get. Maybe lower the level to lvl 5.
Alternatively increase the XP gain with Channeling II (and later on III).

Some of this will of course be reevaluated when the Mages get free promotions without getting XP. (Btw i have an idea how we accomplish that easily i think )

The upgrade form Adept to mages is a bit fast. You have those 5 XP nearly always when you built them (so you could as well allow building Mages),
Id say increase that to 10XP/level 4.

Not a problem, I'll change it.

Then the extra xp you gain on upgrade to mage boost you considerably (especially if you upgrade late) so that you can Archieve an Archmage in reasonable time (level 6 seem ok for them).

With this change we will need the bonus promotion without a level trick, otherwise the will only be mages for 1 level.

But High priests are a pain as Priests do not get the XP boost mages get. Maybe lower the level to lvl 5.
Alternatively increase the XP gain with Channeling II (and later on III).

Id rather increase the xp gain with channeling 2 and 3. I like that all national units require level 6, and all others require level 4 (formorly level 3). I just think its easier for players to remember rather than tuning it individually for each unit.

Seems like you should better make war early for that Incenses. :D In fact that is the reason for strategic resources ...


Nah, I should've gone for Ashen Veil instead of Order- there's no incence on the entire continent (there are 2 continents, standard map) but there are reagents. I'd be on good terms with the other 6 evil civs if I did that too.

Problem is, no other units can cure disease. As was demonstrated by the Grigori affair, priests are essential. What if you brought the cathedral back, made it available with a later tech than priesthood and allowed priests to be built without the required resource then? Perhaps even make it a national wonder.

Nah, I should've gone for Ashen Veil instead of Order- there's no incence on the entire continent (there are 2 continents, standard map) but there are reagents. I'd be on good terms with the other 6 evil civs if I did that too.

Problem is, no other units can cure disease. As was demonstrated by the Grigori affair, priests are essential. What if you brought the cathedral back, made it available with a later tech than priesthood and allowed priests to be built without the required resource then? Perhaps even make it a national wonder.

I agree with Chalid, the situations were you are shorted resources are exactly why they are there. There are at least 3 incense in the world, you may have to get them by force or diplomacy or have to make your way in the world without them.

Im not much of a seafaring man myself but I thought Id give it a try and started researching Octopus Overlords as my religion
I looked ahead at their special buildings and noticed that all wonders that can be built when you have this religion offer: -% gold, -% research, - trade route

why would I want to build these things? some of them even add +/- unhappiness to the city

how about giving (captured only?) wolves the tracking(I or II) promotion, so they might be used for something besides beeing stuffen in the carnivals, as every unit has at least 2strenght or a 100%vs animals bonus, they get sloughtered in almost every battle.
would also be really nice to see those wolves "domesticated" and used as watchdogs, warning early civilizations of advancing foes.

Im not much of a seafaring man myself but I thought Id give it a try and started researching Octopus Overlords as my religion
I looked ahead at their special buildings and noticed that all wonders that can be built when you have this religion offer: -% gold, -% research, - trade route

why would I want to build these things? some of them even add +/- unhappiness to the city

Because they're needed to build the OO's Tier 5 (4? I lose track) units. The negatives are the cost of access to the powerful units.

Because they're needed to build the OO's Tier 5 (4? I lose track) units. The negatives are the cost of access to the powerful units.

Not according to the building design thread on this forum. There's a list of the building's affects in that thread and in the civlopedia, some of it is out of date though. :: shruggs :: It's a beta :)

The dwarven civ that uses mud golems instead of workers:
mud golems take more turns to build than settlers...
do they build improvements faster or was this a mistake?

They build improvements faster.

oh alright just checking... I was just starting off with that civ and went to build a worker 100 turns, setller 42
I wasn't too sure on that one
Im playing as the evil clown civ (sorry cant remember exact name) and I love the other race cages you can build! I was thinking though, maybe their civ should have a promotion, gained from ancient chants, that gives them plys 40% vs elves and humans
just a thought

Oh, speaking of which, can Balseraph elve/dwarve/human/orc slaves escape their cages now too? They'd actually be dangerous, being able to move inside culture borders and all.

how do you capture the elves/dwarves/humans/orcs?
do you need slavery or something?
and I would think that they could escape, most likely with the same chance as the animals
Acrobats +100% vs animals isn't working, in my current game it only shows the plus 25% from subdue animal promotion

Well, I prefer to think that elves/dwarfs/humans/orcs are smarter than animals... so the change would be bigger...

how do you capture the elves/dwarves/humans/orcs?
do you need slavery or something?
and I would think that they could escape, most likely with the same chance as the animals
Acrobats +100% vs animals isn't working, in my current game it only shows the plus 25% from subdue animal promotion

Bonus:
Where did you check the bonus? In the combat preview?

Slaves:
You can capture them with the balseraph Taskmaster or with the slavery civic.

battle preview when I clicked and drug the circle over him
only showed 25% bonus

the free tech situation will probrably never make Everone happy what I suggest is8different free techs in the game. One for each civ that discovers/founds a religion as a symbol of their enlightenment/dinine-infernal attunement and the writing and the pilosophy Hell.....later on add 4 more to mix it up a little........what is fair about cultural advancement anyway springs forward are what progressive cultures strive for and as for loosing the races......unless I am really gunning for something I find I'll loose that free tech race anyway because my civ has more important things to worry about than min/maxing like keeping production up and the people content and fed etc.........instead of arguing and fretting over 1 or 2 free techs it could be possible to raise the overall number in a manner not likely to be cross-lined ie..Alignment and Religios lines of enlightenment and therefore when some civ develops a religion you have no interest in.........say if your Leaves someone makes Octopus Overlords....instead of "oh well,I'll kill him later anyway .I founded my religion long before him amyway."..........ITS..."uh-oh someone just founded Overlords. Where the hell are they and are they leapfrogging the rest of us........."......just an idea for flavor and a way to get around the issue and still keep it interesting. Why this adds balance is evident only when one sees it as difficult for anyone to get them all or even most....it is more likely that several differnt civs will recieve a free tech means that those that don't have a highter chance of falling behind but more pull into the lead........thus being the lone racer becomes very unlikely ..........it increased the odds of winning a free or not winning a free tech is irrational once the alighment system starts in because if you go chasing every religion the rest of your civilization suffers..........and the team could always limit this reward to one or two free tech from religions per civ.........that would do it troo.........anyway this is most definitely a rawhide chew......and I thaought I should put it forward as a possiblity.....The Opiad of the Masses......some call religion and technology has often gone hand in hand with it......Education and Writing and Philosophy too.......

Gargoyles are after iron golems in the tech tree, but not much stronger than wood golems. They dont need iron to build so its good keeping them there, but they would be better as a strength 8 I think so theyre 10 str defending but weaker than iron golems at attacking.

I tried to play an GP heavy startegy yesterday but its nearly impossible. I got so few GP that i soon abandoned the strategy and went back to cottage spamming, which is even in Vanilla more powerfull that the Specialist/GP strategy but not much so.

Here my analysis concerning GP generation compared to vanilla:
The needed Points to get an GP are 150% up.
The possible modifier one can get easily is 100%+50% (philosophical) + 75% pacifism + 20% (arete) = 245 % compared to 350% (Patheon,Pacifism,Philosophical)

Im not sure but i think our specialists give 2 GPP instead of 3 GPP (vanilla) and albeit we have some buildings/wonders that give GPP the big chunk comes form Specialists.

So we have 150% * (350% / 245%) * [150% (not sure)] = 215% or even 321%(specialists) of the relative cost of GP.
For the city with the national epic its still 195% [300%] (compared to vanilla).
I think that needs dire reworking. So i would say Specialistas to 3 GPP (if they are modifierd) and the increase of cost back to 100 instead of 150.

That was general.

But now comes the real unfunny part. I played with the grigory which with their industrial/Philosophical ahould be the ideal civ for a GP heavy startegy. But widely failed. The Grigory can not adopt a states religion and thus the are not able to use pacifism or arete. Therefor they are struck by the 100%+50% (Philiosophical) modifier.

I think we should do something to solve that dilemma. First of all i would bump Philosophical, as this trait is weaker at the moment than then pacifism civic, which strikes me as very odd. Maybe Philosophical up to 75% (same as pacifism)
The second thing is that we need something to get an additional modifier in for the grigory.
Maybe the adventurers guild could get some extra GPP modifier (additional to the +2 Adventurer points) and/or we need a wonder similar to the Patheon. Or Maybe Pacifism does not require states religion for the grigory?

Btw. How far are we with an grigory inquisitor?

I think we should do something to solve that dilemma. First of all i would bump Philosophical, as this trait is weaker at the moment than then pacifism civic, which strikes me as very odd. Maybe Philosophical up to 75% (same as pacifism)
The second thing is that we need something to get an additional modifier in for the grigory.
Maybe the adventurers guild could get some extra GPP modifier (additional to the +2 Adventurer points) and/or we need a wonder similar to the Patheon. Or Maybe Pacifism does not require states religion for the grigory?

Btw. How far are we with an grigory inquisitor?
How about a new civic for civs with no religion, or, perhaps easier, give a GP % to Free Religion?

You could call the Grigori inquisitor the Liberator or something like that? Hmmm. Or perhaps make Inquisitor an early Adventurer promotion?

how about some agnostic civic in the religion category giving at least +n %GPP (and some negative like -% culture) in all cities and -n %GPP per religion.
so there might be some incentive in keeping ALL religions out of your cities, barring you from religion specific buildings/unit, but rewarding you for beeing atheist. (people don't "waste" time with religion).
might need some way for the [inquisitor like unite] to remove ALL religions.

i know the idea isn't really thought out through the end, but i'll have to rush to my final exam, hope to improve upon this concept when i get back.
maybe someone has other boni more fitting for this playing style.
could also be fun to send lots of guys trying to convert his cities to such a player :D

Chalid,

I read your post about Grigori and their GP problem.

I think that giving a bonus to Agnostic trait is a good and easy solution (even if not the only one). As somebody writes, people don't "waste" time with religion. An other solution is a specific building for Agnostic leader. A school of philosophy for exemple.
I don't know if it's technically possible, but i think that civs with Agnostic leader would NEVER generate a Great Prophet.

The Frog.

I tried to play an GP heavy startegy yesterday but its nearly impossible. I got so few GP that i soon abandoned the strategy and went back to cottage spamming, which is even in Vanilla more powerfull that the Specialist/GP strategy but not much so.

Here my analysis concerning GP generation compared to vanilla:
The needed Points to get an GP are 150% up.
The possible modifier one can get easily is 100%+50% (philosophical) + 75% pacifism + 20% (arete) = 245 % compared to 350% (Patheon,Pacifism,Philosophical)

Im not sure but i think our specialists give 2 GPP instead of 3 GPP (vanilla) and albeit we have some buildings/wonders that give GPP the big chunk comes form Specialists.

So we have 150% * (350% / 245%) * [150% (not sure)] = 215% or even 321%(specialists) of the relative cost of GP.
For the city with the national epic its still 195% [300%] (compared to vanilla).
I think that needs dire reworking. So i would say Specialistas to 3 GPP (if they are modifierd) and the increase of cost back to 100 instead of 150.

That was general.

But now comes the real unfunny part. I played with the grigory which with their industrial/Philosophical ahould be the ideal civ for a GP heavy startegy. But widely failed. The Grigory can not adopt a states religion and thus the are not able to use pacifism or arete. Therefor they are struck by the 100%+50% (Philiosophical) modifier.

I think we should do something to solve that dilemma. First of all i would bump Philosophical, as this trait is weaker at the moment than then pacifism civic, which strikes me as very odd. Maybe Philosophical up to 75% (same as pacifism)
The second thing is that we need something to get an additional modifier in for the grigory.
Maybe the adventurers guild could get some extra GPP modifier (additional to the +2 Adventurer points) and/or we need a wonder similar to the Patheon. Or Maybe Pacifism does not require states religion for the grigory?

Btw. How far are we with an grigory inquisitor?

Excellent points here. The reason GPP are turned down so much is I want a greater distinction between civs that are good at great people and those that aren't. So the base is reduced intentionally. Now, as you state we have to make some civs good at it. I was hoping that the Grigori would be, but your analysis shows that they aren't.

So I'll return Philosophical to +100%. Thats probably the easiest way to distinguish between those that are and arent supposed to be good at great people.

As for something Grigori specific, we are going to be adding a special obelisk for the grigori and kuriotates in the next version that doesnt cost gold. Do you want me to put +1 GPP on it too? Or is there a better way?

The grigori inquisitor never got much past the idea phase. I'll try to get him added to 0.14.

As a fan of anything-but-boring-cottage-spam I'm glad to read this. :D

How about using Impaler's Great People Point Pooling, included in the CCCP? :beg:

Raw +1 GPP is not too usefull, as a real GP will run with about 10 Specialists. That should be 30 GPP. So the +1GPP does not do very much. The second thing is that the +1 GPP would sum up to + many gpp empirewide but effective one very few cities will ever spawn a GP so in fact only one or two of the obeliks will make a difference.

Maybe we add +15% GPP for the Kuriotate and Girgori Obelisk (Kuriotate can use it, too).

And maybe we add another 25% for the adventurers guild (it draws all kind of interesting people) or as stated we change the pacifism civic so that it works in all cities for the agnostic civs. (I think one can be an agonstic pacifist, too. The more i think about it many agnostics are pacifistic :D)

The GPPpooling might be a good idea but it takes from the decision to really run a specialist approach and instead results simply in more random GP for people that do not care at all. So i think its not in the spirit of FfH.

What if you were to go with some sort of GP pooling just for the Grigori? All the GP points created in their cities went into a big pool of points, then when it reached the threshold, a GP spawns in one of their 3 largest cities?
[edit]Or spawns in the city that contributed the most GP points to the pool?

I would like to see something like that as a special mechanic for grigori, all GPP pooled and then GP is spawned in captol. If that is possible, I would really like that, it is better than generic increasing of GPP via buildings. Not to say how big advantage would it be for Grigori: Just create 1 mercahnt in each city and you have Great Merchant (Or Adventurer) in just few turns! So large advantage, that GP spawn poits should be doubled from 100/250 etc to 200/500... and they would still be powerful and unique

ok is werewolf suppsoe to spread to animals as of now i just fought a lion with a greater werewolf and the lion became a werewolf. seems odd to me.

second not sure where to put this but the game almost crashed and had a graphical error after my all Order kingdom founded the ashen veil. It had no unorder city which to put it in so it put it in the same holy city as the order. The game slowed down so much took me more then a minute to get the arrow to the ok and the pic for founding the veil was all mishappened looking like a mesed up pic of the sheims leader and not the ashen veil founding animation.

ok is werewolf suppsoe to spread to animals as of now i just fought a lion with a greater werewolf and the lion became a werewolf. seems odd to me.

Nope, I'll block on that.

second not sure where to put this but the game almost crashed and had a graphical error after my all Order kingdom founded the ashen veil. It had no unorder city which to put it in so it put it in the same holy city as the order. The game slowed down so much took me more then a minute to get the arrow to the ok and the pic for founding the veil was all mishappened looking like a mesed up pic of the sheims leader and not the ashen veil founding animation.

I can imagine that the engine had a little problem trying to find a place to stick that. Its good that it sorta worked itself out.

Just a sidenote: I don't know if it's just my imagination, but it would seem to me that "civ X is weak on this, let's add them a new building" would happen be a line that's seen pretty often. Just a few moments back I saw that the Kuriotates were getting happiness-boosting buildings, while now the Grigori are getting their own GPP boosters. Obviously there's nothing wrong with boosting civilizations that are obviously suffering very bad from something, and the Grigori are Philosophical so they *should* be able to generate lots of GPP - but be careful not to go overboard with it. Not *every* weakness a civilization has needs to be compensated for or they end up all playing the same - the Kuriotate happiness problem can already be greatly helped with the Fellowship, or Hereditary Rule, or Unyielding Order, for instance... (not necessarily saying that they *shouldn't* get an extra happiness booster, just using that as an example). It's good that civilizations have weaknesses, too.

Just a sidenote: I don't know if it's just my imagination, but it would seem to me that "civ X is weak on this, let's add them a new building" would happen be a line that's seen pretty often. Just a few moments back I saw that the Kuriotates were getting happiness-boosting buildings, while now the Grigori are getting their own GPP boosters. Obviously there's nothing wrong with boosting civilizations that are obviously suffering very bad from something, and the Grigori are Philosophical so they *should* be able to generate lots of GPP - but be careful not to go overboard with it. Not *every* weakness a civilization has needs to be compensated for or they end up all playing the same - the Kuriotate happiness problem can already be greatly helped with the Fellowship, or Hereditary Rule, or Unyielding Order, for instance... (not necessarily saying that they *shouldn't* get an extra happiness booster, just using that as an example). It's good that civilizations have weaknesses, too.

I agree 100%. But we have to make sure the civs strengths are really strengths. The Grigori should be able to have a viable GPP strategy, the Kuriotates should be able to grow their main cities beyond other civs. I recommended in the main thread (I think it was the main thread) that people may want to consider their civic choices if they play the kuriotates.

You are right that some people may play these civs in their normal fashion and find that they aren't very effective. Thats a result of the fact that they have different strengths and weaknesses. Players will have to adjust the way they play, or decide that certain civs arent for them.

Chalid actually mentioned hereditary rule today as we talked about the issue, which I am cool with. But I dont want them to be reliant on the Fellowship for successful play, they should be viable with any religion.

This is a playtest, we make something new, we listen to your input and then we adjust based on that. There will be a lot of reworking and it will be rare that we just release a new feature and not modify it in the next patch. The Luchuirp came out in 0.12, and got a lot more polished in 0.13. Thats a pattern that will probably continue.

I was playing as the balseraph and was going crazy trying to capture as many animals as possible in the early game before they stopped spawning and turned into orc spearmen and lizard men, but I noticed that as you capture more and more animals they add up and begin to cost you money...

Since the early game is the only time to capture these animals and they really only help you in the late game, you're paying for their upkeep for atleast 400 turns ( when I used my first animal ).
I know we covered the possibility of having big game animals or whatever you call it for later in the game, but can their upkeeps be tuned down or maybe nonexistant as to not strangle the economy of civs that go for the animals?

Also, the technology deception gives no bonuses, units, or spells, and leads to no other technology...

Normally if you are researching a tech and you go over, the extra science is applied straight to the next tech you pick, right?
Could you make this also work for free techs from goodie huts? More often then not I get the one I am researching. It's still better than anything else I could pop from it, of course, but if my 3 or 4 or so previous turns of research weren't wasted, that'd be great.

I was playing as the balseraph and was going crazy trying to capture as many animals as possible in the early game before they stopped spawning and turned into orc spearmen and lizard men, but I noticed that as you capture more and more animals they add up and begin to cost you money...

Since the early game is the only time to capture these animals and they really only help you in the late game, you're paying for their upkeep for atleast 400 turns ( when I used my first animal ).
I know we covered the possibility of having big game animals or whatever you call it for later in the game, but can their upkeeps be tuned down or maybe nonexistant as to not strangle the economy of civs that go for the animals?

Also, the technology deception gives no bonuses, units, or spells, and leads to no other technology...

Espionage was supposed to require deception but for some reason it was assigned way fo the wicked instead. I'll change it in 0.14.

Keep in mind that the tech tree is a design to hang things on. I like the idea of honor and deception off of trade, but if we cant find a good use for it in a few versions it will be removed.

i found a barbarian kingdom in all its glory

in the battle i liberated ( you dont conquer barbaians you liberate them) a city with a fire mana allready being worked by the barbarians :0

also alot of my fighting is against the Barbarian Mercinaries *does that sound odd too you?*

still hunting the red dragon and the Axe both formed havent found either yet

but my balance issues is are barbarians suppose to work mana tiles? and are they suppose to hire mercinaries?

i found a barbarian kingdom in all its glory

in the battle i liberated ( you dont conquer barbaians you liberate them) a city with a fire mana allready being worked by the barbarians :0

also alot of my fighting is against the Barbarian Mercinaries *does that sound odd too you?*

still hunting the red dragon and the Axe both formed havent found either yet

but my balance issues is are barbarians suppose to work mana tiles? and are they suppose to hire mercinaries?

Yes to both questions. The barbarians in FfH are capable of a lot more than in vanilla civ. But functionally we had to allow them to work tiles to link to resources so they could access some of the higher tier units.

Normally if you are researching a tech and you go over, the extra science is applied straight to the next tech you pick, right?
Could you make this also work for free techs from goodie huts? More often then not I get the one I am researching. It's still better than anything else I could pop from it, of course, but if my 3 or 4 or so previous turns of research weren't wasted, that'd be great.

Same happens to me, especially in the early game. If you fixed it, it'd really improve my games (ofcourse it wouldn't always, as I don't usually pop techonologies, but when I do, I really rather they not be techs that I've been researching more than a turn or two).

I think that the Balseraphs civ is extremely unbalanced concerning its creation of Great People. Many of the buildings constructed by this civ give a modifier to Great Bard. In a game to 1000 turns, no matter how much I tried to warp it away from Great bard, I received one of these great people everytime because of the buildings in my cities.
I was dying to receive a great prophet so I can gain gold from the spread of the Ashen Veil but I couldn't do so. The most I received against the Great Bard was 40%.

I think that the Balseraphs civ is extremely unbalanced concerning its creation of Great People. Many of the buildings constructed by this civ give a modifier to Great Bard. In a game to 1000 turns, no matter how much I tried to warp it away from Great bard, I received one of these great people everytime because of the buildings in my cities.
I was dying to receive a great prophet so I can gain gold from the spread of the Ashen Veil but I couldn't do so. The most I received against the Great Bard was 40%.

It is a civ full of Bards and Crazy People. What do you exspect?

Speaking of espionage. I/We need a non combat unit that can spy in enemies cities. The combating units cant as they attack - and i think non og the stealth unit has the spiing ability so that you cant even spy at your "friends".

I think the cost for the moneychanger is way too expensive.

250 hammers for the only building that increases gold by a percentage is just to much. Most of your low hammer/ high commerce cities take forever to build it.

Can you consider lowering the cost in the next patch please?

I'd echo the comment about the GP route needing a boost. I usde GP's and wonders to get a cultural victory on small/noble, but it took longer and led to a lower score than the simple conquest path.

The GPPpooling might be a good idea but it takes from the decision to really run a specialist approach and instead results simply in more random GP for people that do not care at all. So i think its not in the spirit of FfH.

If you want to make a GP strategy viable yet at the same time make sure it has to be a conscious decision that all others can't easily profit from, possible modifications could be:

Increase the threshold for getting your first Great Person to, say, 300.
Lower the GP point increase back to 100 per GP.
Use Impaler's GPP pooling - nothing more annoying than knowing most of your GP points will be wasted due to the ever increasing city-based limit. :mad: ;)
Significantly increase the bonus you get for having the Philosophical trait, and for running Pacifism and Arete. Possibly reduce the normal GP production to two per specialist.

In other words, due to the increased first limit and low GPPP production without running Pacifism/Arete/Philosophical, harder to get a GP by just having a random specialist now and then, but if you focus on them, they can roll out easier.

after playing almost a full game as Luchuirp I think maybe some of the golems should be spread around the tech tree into other areas. For example, the tech to find mithril leaves u a short jump away from 3 bone golems, 3 arcane golems, 3 nullstone golems, and on the way to it I had to grab iron golems and gargoyles. I liked the old tech tree as you had to pick a tech path early to one or two golems which u had the resource for, it made for more diverse strategy. Mithril working also unlocks only arcane golems, which dont need mithril to be built so it doesnt feel right.

Barnaxus is a great idea, but possibly overpowered (armament molds and maxed promotions is I think +130% strength, plus gridlines/blasting promotion for every golem u build, which makes a 10 str iron golem look a lot stronger than a maceman). if he came later in the tech tree it might balance it out as he would have to take more risks in battle against stronger units to level up, and the promotions wouldnt be maxed out before u researched earlier golems.

One other balance thing, on a normal map with 6 civs I played against the Kuriatotes, Elohim, Bannor, Amurites and Lanun. First time its ever happened, but made for quite a dull game without a single evil civ, everyone was defensive napping and never getting more than cautious with each other. Is it possible to code it so that at least 1 evil and good civ always starts?

It is a civ full of Bards and Crazy People. What do you exspect?

I just meant that it makes it extremely hard for them to accomplish anything with this GP, and the free techs offered by them seem rather random.
I went from Drama to Message from the Deep

There might be a few misassigned or unassigned tech flavours in there, which is what I believe determines the types of GP who can pop a tech (if one of their type is available) as well as the caption in the recommendation text ("Recommended (Culture)" etc). It could just be that there weren't any culturey techs available to you at the time, of course.

After looking at all the improvements i would recommend the following:
The normal Improvements stay as they are because they seem well balanced.

The only one that is a bit off is the workshop. I would therefor add a bonus to the Workshop with two civics (in the same row): Serfdom should give +1 Hammer, Guilds should give +1 Commerce.

For the Elven Civ i hold to my ideas:
Elves should be able to build Elven Farm (like normal Farms, but not allowed In Forests (rewuirements to cut the Forest -> Never Tech)
The same for Cottages
As Compensation they get two new improvements:
The gatherer Hut: +1 Food, does not Spread or need Irrigation.
And Treetop Cottage/Hamlet/Village that are identical to the Normal ones but can only be built in Forests and grow only to Village.

This Way the elves get an early advantage (that can be well combined with the Ancient Forests later on) but their Gatherer Huts are a bit weaker to the end of the game. Note that the Gatherer huts can also be planted in Hill-Forests which allows the elves an kind of early game Windmill.
(Make sure you set Bonus Makes Valid to False for the Food bonusses (but allowing them to the gatherer hut)this way the hut can be placed on the boni but only if they are within forests..)

Furthermore i would introduce a late game Improvement that can be built by workers and priest of the leaves:
Enchanted glade - requires Commune with Nature - can only be built in Ancient Forests. Gives +1 Commerce.
This way Ancient forests are equal to forests with lumbermills.

I would like to suggest Summoned units do not cost any maintainence. (lol, can't spell tonight). Is that even possible?

Jonathan

battle preview when I clicked and drug the circle over him
only showed 25% bonus

For bonuses like vs anumals or vs mele you do not see a +, their value is lowered automaticlly by the amount. So when you look at a lion you will see x vs. 1.00 because they have a value of 2 normally and you have a 100% bonus vs them.

So yeah. it's there you just have to look for it.

I suspect in your case you had either promoted your unit on shock or the goblins were promoted on shock/combat. This way the gobbos were the stronger defenders (goblins are no melee troops so shock does not work against them)..

For choosing yourself. We modified it that not only the strength defined who defends but so that Heroes and Mages come later in the line (when the strength is equal normal units would defend first) and Summons come earlier to defend.

The AI has not yet been tweacked to change the way it attacks (i have only dealt with the way mages are moved by the AI, but am not yet satisfied with the way they do). But i'm planning on implementing some task force based attack algorithms for the AI farther down the road.

Thanks for the compliment! You know.. my goal is that experienced games have to switch to Warlord to beat the AI ;)

Yes, here is an example to illustrate the problem I have with not being able to choose a defender. I had the following in my city as defense: Archer (3 city defense promotions and a few extra first strikes), 2 Hunters (plenty of promotions), 3 Warriors (again, plenty of promotions).

I was hit by a stack of 5 Lizard Men. They did some serious damage to the Archer, but the others were virtually untouched. Next turn another Lizard Man attacks and kills my archer who had 0.X points left. I am sure the others would have put up a better defense, but I wasn't given the choice of my defender. The Lizard Man simply attacked and killed my Archer. I suppose I could have moved the Archer out of the city knowing what would happen, but he would have been picked off by the Lizard Man anyway.

As a balance issue, I think the Worg Riders, Barbarian Chariots, and, meet the new Barbarian, the Lunatics come too early in the game. It is certainly before you have a chance to defend powerful units with many movement points like these. The Lunatics started showing up in yr. 443 in my game.

In the raging barb mode, IMO, it is not about defending your city so much, but your improvements. The units listed above are mainly about pillaging vs. attacking your city. Unable to kill them outside of your city, your improvements will vanish quickly.

Oh yeah, one thing about those Lunatics...they are acting like, well, Lunatics. :crazyeye:

Some have one movement, some two even though I don't see any kind of promotion. And, I have seen those with one movement land on an improvement (one move) and pillage in the same move. What's up with that?

Chalid, I'm not sure if it is the mod changes themselves or the tweaking of the AI, but I have had to drop DOWN one level from Prince to Noble. I was able to win at Prince 90% of the time, but now, no way. Noble gives me all I can handle with raging barbs. So, keep up your 'fine' work and I will be at the Warlord setting soon. :(

Yes, here is an example to illustrate the problem I have with not being able to choose a defender. I had the following in my city as defense: Archer (3 city defense promotions and a few extra first strikes), 2 Hunters (plenty of promotions), 3 Warriors (again, plenty of promotions).

I was hit by a stack of 5 Lizard Men. They did some serious damage to the Archer, but the others were virtually untouched. Next turn another Lizard Man attacks and kills my archer who had 0.X points left. I am sure the others would have put up a better defense, but I wasn't given the choice of my defender. The Lizard Man simply attacked and killed my Archer. I suppose I could have moved the Archer out of the city knowing what would happen, but he would have been picked off by the Lizard Man anyway.


Hmm that must be some Vanilla behhaviour you are seeing here. I suspect it comes with the Big city defense promotions and the (vanilla) bad calculated first strikes. I had proposed that we add some code that also moves wounded units down in the line of defenders. It had not been included yet. I'll review that entire section when im going back to the Combat AI. I hope to be able to solve that problem. As i would anytime sacrifice an warrior to give a chance to heal to my highly promotes Archer myself - if i had a choice.

Edit: Thinking some more about it, yes the reason are most probably the first strikes (you know in Vanilla sometimes you get chances above 100% and loos anyway with those). So you see some Vanilla behaviour here.

Why there are some techs which don't do anything for certain civilisations? They're utterly useless for them. Why not only enable them for those civs that can get enything from them? For example just played a game as Calabim, the endgame tech Domesticane Elephants don't do bloody anything. Since this civ obviously can't use war elephants why it can research the tech? It doesn't make sence. Either give them some elephants or remove the tech because it's useless ;)
Other example: tech Deception. I don't know which civ gains anything from it. For those that I've played so far it was useless.
Maybe you plan to add some effects to these techs in the future?

Deception will be removend ( i think - there was a unit ther but that got moved to another tech.)
For Domesticate Elephats - simple don't research it for the time beeing. But maybe there will be something more moved to that tech. Blocking it for one civ simply adds programming complexity so it might not be worth it, especially if it might get worthwile later on.

Terreforming terrain with druids. It doesn't seem particularly.. natural at times, when you end up having random patches of grassland in the snowy regions. Would you consider giving a negative effect to terreforming? Slight unhealthyness to the city, having it add to global warming for example? Just an idea.

Terreforming terrain with druids. It doesn't seem particularly.. natural at times, when you end up having random patches of grassland in the snowy regions. Would you consider giving a negative effect to terreforming? Slight unhealthyness to the city, having it add to global warming for example? Just an idea.

Perhaps instead of adding a negative modifier, it could be changed so as to seem more realistic/organic? Like you could only terraform a desert tile to a plains tile if it has freshwater access (from oasis or lake) or is adjacent to a non-desert tile. That way you wouldn't see grassland in the middle of desert, but rather spreading into desert from greener regions.

In regard to ice and tundra, ice could not be changed to tundra unless adjacent to tundra; tundra could not be turned to grass unless adjacent to grass, etc.

On the other hand, it would be an interesting element of realism to see a global warming effect from removing a large number of ice tiles.

Terreforming terrain with druids. It doesn't seem particularly.. natural at times, when you end up having random patches of grassland in the snowy regions.

It's magic - it's supernatural. :D
Personally I do think it kinda fits with the nature mana theme - making your own paradise in an inhospitable region.

Also IIRC at some later phase there will be some Armageddon spell that slowly changes the world to ice. Druid's terraforming will then be an important tactic to try and counter this.

If you want to make a GP strategy viable yet at the same time make sure it has to be a conscious decision that all others can't easily profit from, possible modifications could be:

Increase the threshold for getting your first Great Person to, say, 300.
Lower the GP point increase back to 100 per GP.
Use Impaler's GPP pooling - nothing more annoying than knowing most of your GP points will be wasted due to the ever increasing city-based limit. :mad: ;)
Significantly increase the bonus you get for having the Philosophical trait, and for running Pacifism and Arete. Possibly reduce the normal GP production to two per specialist.

In other words, due to the increased first limit and low GPPP production without running Pacifism/Arete/Philosophical, harder to get a GP by just having a random specialist now and then, but if you focus on them, they can roll out easier.

I think there's a better way to make Great People a viable strategy.

In vanilla after you get ten GPs, the increase for the next GP rises to 200 instead of 100. And even later to 300... I haven't actually done a GP strategy game yet with FfH, but I assume it's the same here. :cute: But anyway, I would suggest to do it the other way around.
For the first GP, the threshold is increased to 250 GPP. Then for five times the threshold increases with 150, as it is currently in the beginning. The threshold is then at 1000 GPP. Instead of increasing, I would suggest that the threshold increase is lowered to 100 points per GP, for the next five GPs. You're then at 1500. Then I would suggest another decrease, to only 50 extra points per GP. At that rate of increase it would stay.

This has at advantage that heavy investments in Great People pay out in the end, while it's less so for just random GP producing civs. It also fixes what I consider one of the biggest design flaws in Civ4. For all other strategies the principle counts that everything gets better for you as the game progresses. Your farms give more food, your mines more hammers (well that not in FfH :(), your cottages grow and grow, your trade routes becomes more lucrative etc... The sole exception to this are Great People. They are very good in the beginning, but due to more than linearly increasing GPP threshold, the more GPs you produce, the less the return on your GPP investments becomes. :crazyeye: Sure, there's a gradual increase in eg the beakers that each GP gives, but AFAIK that increase is just fixed in time. So again this punishes people who invested heavily in GPs and rewards those who only go for some GPs later in the game. At a certain point in the game the entire game strategy of a heavy GP player becomes unlucrative. I think my suggestion could rectify this.

Summons: As far as I can tell, Water 2 is superior to Law 2. Why would I want a stength 4 law bringer who can't even attack half my enemies when I can get a strength 4 djinn who can even cast level 1 spells?

Summons: As far as I can tell, Water 2 is superior to Law 2. Why would I want a stength 4 law bringer who can't even attack half my enemies when I can get a strength 4 djinn who can even cast level 1 spells?

Good point, I'll make the Djinn strength 3 and give it water walking.

Deception will be removend ( i think - there was a unit ther but that got moved to another tech.)
For Domesticate Elephats - simple don't research it for the time beeing. But maybe there will be something more moved to that tech. Blocking it for one civ simply adds programming complexity so it might not be worth it, especially if it might get worthwile later on.
Bummer, I just started a game and there is a some 40 Elephants already visible by round 60, Ivory only, damn and OK at least I know that the horses that haven't shown should be all together somewhere and what strategy not to use......

Are Sand Lions the only units that "can see stealth" ? Or is that another way of saying can expose spys in rival territory, which the shadow and sabeteour have? Maybe add seeing stealth to another unit, like marksmen, so it isn't just in the magic and recon liines...

okay, thanks!

Are Sand Lions the only units that "can see stealth" ? Or is that another way of saying can expose spys in rival territory, which the shadow and sabeteour have? Maybe add seeing stealth to another unit, like marksmen, so it isn't just in the magic and recon liines...

Units that can see stealth:

Kithra (hero)
Marksman
Elven Marksman
Sand Lion

Units that can see stealth:

Kithra (hero)
Marksman
Elven Marksman
Sand Lion

Could you give the flying eye the same ability? I think that fits their flavour very well.

Could you give the flying eye the same ability? I think that fits their flavour very well.

Will do .

Hmm, M@ni@c's ideas with the great people sound good, even in vanilla Civ, I have no idea why the original game was made to have GP farming be so useless in the late stages.

Also, consider this. This game gives you 33% less GPP per specialist, which have always been the primary way of getting Great People. Further, it takes 150% more GPP to get a great person, which means that you need a +225% great person rate to even match the Great Person rate of vanilla Civ. I know you all wanted to make Great Person generation more specialized, but the way it is now, there's just less Great People across the board. I doubt this is what you intended, or at least not to this degree.

So, I'd say that you either need to make philosophical give +200% GPP (too much more powerful than the other Civs), or make it just easier to get Great People across the board (what I'd prefer).

Also, about the Grigori, I've been having some intersting thoughts about how to make it work. Perhaps you could have the Agnostic trait automatically spread a hidden religion to all cities that the Grigori found or own. This religion could just function as a placeholder (allowing religious civics), and would probably make it less likely for other religions to spread in Grigori lands (I'm pretty sure this is how religion already works, with lower spread rates to places that already have religion). It would also possibly have the side effect of impacting diplomacy with all religions, which might be useful. Whether you'd want this "religion" to have any temples or unique units would be up to you, of course.

Edit: Crap, I forgot to mention the other idea I had; how about Grigori trade routes give GPP instead of commerce? Maybe only with Grigori Taverns? You've got to admit, it has an original flavor. :D

More about one of my favorite topics, barbarian AI (maybe there should be a separate topic on this forum on barbarians :) ):

1. I noticed a strange phenomenon. Playing Luchuirp on a huge balanced map at Nobel, raging barbs, I was getting the usual pounding by goblins, spearmen and lizard men and handling it OK.

However, to the NE of my sole city was a group of 17 lizard men. They were just circling each turn and not making any movement towards my city - it looked like a convention of lizards of some sort. Thankfully, because 17 of them would have overrun the city. But, it seemed very strange AI behavior I had not seen before.
This continued until I gave up on the game when I discovered the AI cheating again by the barbs not attacking Kuriotates (13 cities, no barbs in territory, no BAR trait).

2. Orthus bypassed two other civs (close to and above mine) without the BAR trait and came straight for me. I'm not sure if this is supposed to happen, but it is not very nice. :(

3. I had to use 4 of my 7 warriors to kill Orthus and got the axe. However, then the resulting barb invasion was insane.

When you get Orthus' axe does this make you a homing beacon for all the barbs on the map? Sure seemed that way. I was able to defend my city, but it was tough generating any new units or keeping the city from starving as barbs covered just about all tiles around my city.

So, I'd say that you either need to make philosophical give +200% GPP (too much more powerful than the other Civs), or make it just easier to get Great People across the board (what I'd prefer).

Or (perhaps too complicated) make GPP points scale up different for each specialist, so if your first is a priest, the artists etc. still only need 100 points. Probably would be way too powerful, but actual numbers could be tweaked.

Hmm, M@ni@c's ideas with the great people sound good, even in vanilla Civ, I have no idea why the original game was made to have GP farming be so useless in the late stages.

We should found the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen in support of Great People. ;)

Or (perhaps too complicated) make GPP points scale up different for each specialist, so if your first is a priest, the artists etc. still only need 100 points. Probably would be way too powerful, but actual numbers could be tweaked.

That would make a strategy of focusing on one type of specialist unlucrative though.

I dont think so, as if you focused on one type, it would be like normal games are now... only if you changed to another specialist the points will come back to 100 (example)

For the Elven Civ i hold to my ideas:
Elves should be able to build Elven Farm (like normal Farms, but not allowed In Forests (rewuirements to cut the Forest -> Never Tech)
The same for Cottages
As Compensation they get two new improvements:
The gatherer Hut: +1 Food, does not Spread or need Irrigation.
And Treetop Cottage/Hamlet/Village that are identical to the Normal ones but can only be built in Forests and grow only to Village.

This Way the elves get an early advantage (that can be well combined with the Ancient Forests later on) but their Gatherer Huts are a bit weaker to the end of the game. Note that the Gatherer huts can also be planted in Hill-Forests which allows the elves an kind of early game Windmill.
(Make sure you set Bonus Makes Valid to False for the Food bonusses (but allowing them to the gatherer hut)this way the hut can be placed on the boni but only if they are within forests..)

Furthermore i would introduce a late game Improvement that can be built by workers and priest of the leaves:
Enchanted glade - requires Commune with Nature - can only be built in Ancient Forests. Gives +1 Commerce.
This way Ancient forests are equal to forests with lumbermills.

I like the ideas, but the not being able to cut down forests thing should be linked to the fellowship of leaves religion, not the elven civ. I've seen Ljosalfar with Ashen Veil as their state religion before, and it's not inconcievable for them to be cutting down forests.

It's magic - it's supernatural. :D
Personally I do think it kinda fits with the nature mana theme - making your own paradise in an inhospitable region.

Also IIRC at some later phase there will be some Armageddon spell that slowly changes the world to ice. Druid's terraforming will then be an important tactic to try and counter this.

It may be supernatural, but magic doesn't last forever, does it? According to what I've seen in FfH, most spells either have a time limit (e.g. most buffs, some summons), unit limit (e.g. summoned tigers), or dispel themselves once the mage leaves (e.g. city buffs). Terrain modification spells however aren't consistent with this.

It would make sense if the terrain modification spells act like city buff spells, in that the mage/priest has to be in the area for the terrain to be kept modified. In this case, when the mage/priest leaves the area, the terrain can slowly revert.

However I can't think of an easy to implement this...

It may be supernatural, but magic doesn't last forever, does it? According to what I've seen in FfH, most spells either have a time limit (e.g. most buffs, some summons), unit limit (e.g. summoned tigers), or dispel themselves once the mage leaves (e.g. city buffs). Terrain modification spells however aren't consistent with this.

It would make sense if the terrain modification spells act like city buff spells, in that the mage/priest has to be in the area for the terrain to be kept modified. In this case, when the mage/priest leaves the area, the terrain can slowly revert.

However I can't think of an easy to implement this...

Yeah. At its basic layer terraforming is fun for a lot of players (though I do know there are some who find it to be tedious). Having the land revert back would be very unfun (as you suggest).

I do want to get a little away from running around to plots in "Fire" and instead have the land change according to games outcome. That could mean becoming broken hellish terrain, a lush paradise, or haunted graveyards. Obviously most games implemented ideas like this by having the terrain switch based on player controlable options (religion/maybe civics/etc) and I want to have that play a part. But I also want part of the terrain effects be from a global function as well. Most games worry about a few factions but civ deals with the world. And I want the state of the world to be a concern of the player and something he can influence, but not completly control.

Anyway, dont read to much into this post, its just my babbling. We will see what comes of it.

Deception will be removend ( i think - there was a unit ther but that got moved to another tech.)
For Domesticate Elephats - simple don't research it for the time beeing. But maybe there will be something more moved to that tech. Blocking it for one civ simply adds programming complexity so it might not be worth it, especially if it might get worthwile later on.

It shouldn't add programming complexity if this blocked civs could be set in XML. Rather than hardcode things in, add another element under <TechInfo> called <DisableRules> (or something similar) with some more custom elements. Following example should be self-explanatory:

<TechInfo>
<Type>TECH_ARETE</Type>
...
<DisableRules>
<DisableForReligion>(ALL)</DisableForReligion>
<EnableForReligion>RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORPH</EnableForReligion>
</DisableRules>

Or something along those lines. Point is to XMLize data things.

Yeah. At its basic layer terraforming is fun for a lot of players (though I do know there are some who find it to be tedious). Having the land revert back would be very unfun (as you suggest).

I do want to get a little away from running around to plots in "Fire" and instead have the land change according to games outcome. That could mean becoming broken hellish terrain, a lush paradise, or haunted graveyards. Obviously most games implemented ideas like this by having the terrain switch based on player controlable options (religion/maybe civics/etc) and I want to have that play a part. But I also want part of the terrain effects be from a global function as well. Most games worry about a few factions but civ deals with the world. And I want the state of the world to be a concern of the player and something he can influence, but not completly control.

Anyway, dont read to much into this post, its just my babbling. We will see what comes of it.

Well I wasn't suggesting that land reverting back wouldn't be very fun. Just that if it does, there needs to be some mechanism that isn't annoying.

And what suggest sounds pretty cool. Events and blah. BTW, it would be awesome if Hyborem or another civ could turn ground into blight automatically ala Undead in Warcraft 3 or Zerg in StarCraft :)

Can the power level of piller of fire be tonned down some. I played a game where i had a stack of 2 high priests and 1 inquistor (all 3 with piller of fire) and was able to steam roll the ai's cities, the 3 pillers of fire together destroyed every unit in the cities (when all 3 cast on the same city), then it was just a matter of sending someone in to take over the cities. Bring the level of piller of fire down by 1/10 maybe, and stop it from bringing any unit lower than maybe 10% of initial power?

Can the power level of piller of fire be tonned down some. I played a game where i had a stack of 2 high priests and 1 inquistor (all 3 with piller of fire) and was able to steam roll the ai's cities, the 3 pillers of fire together destroyed every unit in the cities (when all 3 cast on the same city), then it was just a matter of sending someone in to take over the cities. Bring the level of piller of fire down by 1/10 maybe, and stop it from bringing any unit lower than maybe 10% of initial power?
i agree that it's very strong, but i'm not sure how much you'd want to reduce it by, seeing as it's a high level spell. Howevere, even with one pillar caster per target city is enough to make things pretty straightforward with appropriate artillery support, so some kind of toning down would be appropriate i think. Is there a cap to the strength of units it can kill outright at the moment?

I think siege weapons must be removed or weakened, they are overpowered in vanilla, when 20 cheap cannons can capture a city where 10 expensive Infantry will fail. In FfH we have a spells with collateral damage which is enough in my opinion. What is purpose to have 3 strong heroes defending a city, if couple of catapults can weaken them enough to be killed by axeman?

It shouldn't add programming complexity if this blocked civs could be set in XML. Rather than hardcode things in, add another element under <TechInfo> called <DisableRules> (or something similar) with some more custom elements. Following example should be self-explanatory:

<TechInfo>
<Type>TECH_ARETE</Type>
...
<DisableRules>
<DisableForReligion>(ALL)</DisableForReligion>
<EnableForReligion>RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORPH</EnableForReligion>
</DisableRules>

Or something along those lines. Point is to XMLize data things.

It is programming difficulty as we have to add those tags in the SDK and add their function there, too. Adding those two tags and filling them with effect means about 50 lines of code and several additional checks. Alone for these religion checks. Then there have to be ckecks for races and so on.

Believe me, I'm well aware of the possibilities we have and i am sure that this is a bit too much simply for blocking one tech. ;) If we want to do it Kael will probably hardcode it in the cannorResearch in Phython.

I think siege weapons must be removed or weakened, they are overpowered in vanilla, when 20 cheap cannons can capture a city where 10 expensive Infantry will fail. In FfH we have a spells with collateral damage which is enough in my opinion. What is purpose to have 3 strong heroes defending a city, if couple of catapults can weaken them enough to be killed by axeman?

Why send Katapults when you can send Meteors? In fact Catapults are only usefull in FfH for bombarding the city defense.



Can the power level of piller of fire be tonned down some. I played a game where i had a stack of 2 high priests and 1 inquistor (all 3 with piller of fire) and was able to steam roll the ai's cities, the 3 pillers of fire together destroyed every unit in the cities (when all 3 cast on the same city), then it was just a matter of sending someone in to take over the cities. Bring the level of