Don't go to this link if you do not want to watch graphic images.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

First of all, I wish I could be impartial on this topic, but its very hard when you are of Chinese Descendent(I'm Chinese American). Pretty much everyone knows about the Holocaust, but it seems to me far fewer know about the attrocities commited in the Pacifics prior and during WWII. Nanjing being the most prominant of such attrocities. There are political reasons for this i'm sure, but thats another story...

Though I knew Japan commited such attrocities, I never paid too much attention to the actual details. Thus, I decided to research the Nanjing Massacre. After some time of research, I've found source after source stating its creditability, some deny it happened, others say it was exaggerated. But most believe it happened. The death toll was not officially kept since burials were not recorded extensively at the time. Most experts agreed to about 300,000 to 350,000 while Japan reduces it significantly to 50,000 to 150,000. 20,000-80,000 women and children as young and as old as 70 are raped. Numerous tortures including bayoneting pregnant woman, dragging out the fetus and bayonetting it in the air. Trophies like this was shown to the commanders who not only condoned but participated in such actions. Two commanders had tested their new swords in a contest to see who could kill 100 civilians the quickest, they ended up losing counts after a day of "sword practice"....

Foreign relations between the nations involved are still strenuous. Japan has today apologized many times, though not without reservation. China and Korea are still unhappy, progananda on for such sensitive subjects still prevade the countries affected by them.

Personally, I think attrocities are attrocities, so numbers shouldn't matter... I hope the link above is an unbiased source since it is from the popular online encyclopedia and not a site not belonging to another nation.

In my opinion, I believe it did happen. My parents in the past have told me they hate the Japanese because of all the killing they commited when they invaded china. But it was the first time I read it in details. I know personally that my mother's side of the family had escaped with their lives. Sadly my grandfather's elder brother was captured, bayoneted, killed, and later found dumbed in a river. He was probably used for bayonet practice...

I believe the recent book of "Rape of Nanjing" is not as accurate as the one written by Japanese journalist Honda Katsuichi, who wrote an unbiased report of the event.

I have never come across anyone without an agenda claiming that the Rape of Nanking (as it's usually called in English) didn't happen. There were numerous stories in Western newspapers about it. The American, British and French consuls all wrote reports to their respective governments about it and these reports were released to the press. There is massive photographic and other evidence that the massacre did happen.

The only people either denying the Rape or minimizing it are Japanese. In the early 1980s the Japanese Education Ministry tried to censor a high school textbook which mentioned the atrocities. The author sued the Ministry and won.

The only people either denying the Rape or minimizing it are Japanese. In the early 1980s the Japanese Education Ministry tried to censor a high school textbook which mentioned the atrocities. The author sued the Ministry and won.

But why? Can't they be like the Germans, who have appropriatly repented. The Japanese govt. officials still pay visits to the shrines that are war criminals who orders such attrocities to happen... If the german chanceller went to worship hitler, the citizen would've surely stoned him to death...

Japanese war criminals were not rounded up and punished to the extent that German ones were. Part of this is due to the fact that many of the countries the Japanese operated in promptly erupted in civil war and rebellion at the end of WWII. In the chaos created, many Japanese war criminals were able to cover their tracks and make their escape. There are other reasons, but the fact remains that many Japanese atrocities went unpunished.

And you registered today, then posted this as your first post, just to tell us this? :hmm:

I myself am Chinese. The atrocities did happen - they're just too well-documented, fr many sources.

Regardless of 'patriots' fr ALL sides today trying to gain political mileage from this issue, I think the time has long passed for us to move on and put this terrible episode behind us.

And you registered today, then posted this as your first post, just to tell us this? :hmm:

I myself am Chinese. The atrocities did happen - they're just too well-documented, fr many sources.

Regardless of 'patriots' fr ALL sides today trying to gain political mileage from this issue, I think the time has long passed for us to move on and put this terrible episode behind us.

For my first post yes. But i intent to talk about the game too, since I just got it yesterday. Its hugely addictive and great fun. I plan on invading Japan first, but not as China, since i'm not a great fan of their government either. I chose to be Napoleon. :D

Anyways, back on the topic... I don't think people should move on until Japan FULLY accepts what happens, much like the Germans. Then we can move on...

I want to believe Japanese people of different generation are well aware of what happened in China and other Asian countries during the Japanses occupation.

However you can't wish for Japanese to behave the same as German about World War Two. Just too different culture i guess.

Nanjing wasn't the only Japanese atrocity.

The infamous Detachment 731 worked on biological weapons. They built a bubonic plague bomb, which never really worked. The basic idea was to spread the plague (the medieval Black Death) in China. The first field experiments were conducted in 1940. Few plague deaths were noted. The weapon itself was an aircraft bomb containing plague infected fleas instead of explosives. In 1942, the fleas were released near the front to halt the advance of Chinese troops. Again, there was no particular impact on the Chinese. This may have been due to the fact that plague was difficult to spread and there were plenty of other diseases going around at the same time. Moreover, the fleas did not survive long without a host (usually rats). Even attempts to spread the plague by releasing flea-infested rats had no effect.

The 3,000 members of Detachment 731 did manage to kill several thousand people (Chinese and Western POWs) with their other medical experiments. These included "experimental surgery" and other equally grim procedures performed in the name of medical research. Perhaps the only practical effect of Detachment 731 was letting prisoners know that if they didn't cooperate they would be sent to the Detachment for "processing." The word got around China during the war that the Detachment existed and that being sent there was worse than any of the more mundane atrocities the Japanese committed.

I think (may be wrong, of course, as Asian history is not my forte) that one of the main reasons that the Japanese war criminals largely escaped punishment even more so than some Nazi German ones did is the political situation in the region - the Soviet Union was at the doorstep. Germany was already being divided into the Allied zones, Soviet Union of course getting one, so the US and Western Allies most likely did not want the same to happen in Japan - they were already getting weary about Soviet domination in Eastern Europe and didn't want the Soviets to be the major power remaining in eastern Asia as well, especially with the Chinese Civil War coming back into full force with the Nationalists fighting for their lives against the Communist forces. They decided that letting Japanese war crimes go unpunished was preferable to being left with another Stalinist puppet in another region of the world - the lesser of two evils.
No wonder Chinese-Japanese relations are strained. I'd be pissed, too, if the country, in fact the actual government (as Japanese monarchy was retained despite the imposition of a constitutional parliamentary system), that killed so many of my people, used them in experiments quite the same as in Nazi camps, and then got away pretty much scot-free and still tried to act as if it never happened by censoring their own history books.

Thats why there are still "bad blood" between Japan and china

No wonder Chinese-Japanese relations are strained. I'd be pissed, too, if the country, in fact the actual government (as Japanese monarchy was retained despite the imposition of a constitutional parliamentary system), that killed so many of my people, used them in experiments quite the same as in Nazi camps, and then got away pretty much scot-free and still tried to act as if it never happened by censoring their own history books.

Not to mention Japanese Govt head officials set up shrines to worship the very same war criminals that command such attrocities... :(

Not to mention Japanese Govt head officials set up shrines to worship the very same war criminals that command such attrocities... :(Sorry. While I am as maddened as any next Chinese, the fact is that the Yasukuni is a private institution, although it was begun by the Meiji govt. It's not set up by the current Japanese govt. Nor does the current govt control the contents and what it does, within its rights as a private institution.

It just happens the PM and other officials visit it. A lot. Officially, they're paying their respects to the Japanese war dead. Just so happens that 14 class A war criminals are included on the lists.

If the Japanese will just set up a secular memorial and without all these 'tainted' entrees, no one in Asia will raise an eyebrow. :rolleyes:

didn't want the Soviets to be the major power remaining in eastern Asia as well, especially with the Chinese Civil War coming back into full force with the Nationalists fighting for their lives against the Communist forces. They decided that letting Japanese war crimes go unpunished was preferable to being left with another Stalinist puppet in another region of the world - the lesser of two evils.In the years betw 1945 till when the Communists began rolling over the Nationalist armies (esp the Huai river battle), the international view was that the KMT would not lose in the civil war. They had the better equipment, the larger armies and the US was providing supplies and maybe some logistics (at least at the end of WW2).

In fact, the communists' only demand in negotiations was Manchuria. Though Chiang wanted it all, and thus launched the civil war. It was probably inevitable - no Chinese leader could endure illegitimacy by a partition of the historic Chinese lands.

Nanjing wasn't the only Japanese atrocity.

The infamous Detachment 731 worked on biological weapons. They built a bubonic plague bomb, which never really worked. The basic idea was to spread the plague (the medieval Black Death) in China. The first field experiments were conducted in 1940. Few plague deaths were noted. The weapon itself was an aircraft bomb containing plague infected fleas instead of explosives. In 1942, the fleas were released near the front to halt the advance of Chinese troops. Again, there was no particular impact on the Chinese. This may have been due to the fact that plague was difficult to spread and there were plenty of other diseases going around at the same time. Moreover, the fleas did not survive long without a host (usually rats). Even attempts to spread the plague by releasing flea-infested rats had no effect.

The 3,000 members of Detachment 731 did manage to kill several thousand people (Chinese and Western POWs) with their other medical experiments. These included "experimental surgery" and other equally grim procedures performed in the name of medical research. Perhaps the only practical effect of Detachment 731 was letting prisoners know that if they didn't cooperate they would be sent to the Detachment for "processing." The word got around China during the war that the Detachment existed and that being sent there was worse than any of the more mundane atrocities the Japanese committed.And not just in China.

There's the death railway along the Burmese-Thai border. And massacres of Chinese when the Japanese came marching down Malaya into Singapore. And those in Korea. And so on.

Wasn't the detachment's work on chemical and biological warfare used by the US or somehting? similar to how they used German rocket scientists and such I recall...

Wasn't the detachment's work on chemical and biological warfare used by the US or somehting? similar to how they used German rocket scientists and such I recall...
They took over the results, but IIRC quickly concluded the Japanese stuff was way too crude to be useful. Mostly the Japanese sucked at working out a decent delivery system for their bacteriological weapons. They were still pretty much at the stage of poisoning wells...

I think this is a microcosm of a much larger issue at hand. Basically it's the over saturation of Nazi participation of involvement and war crimes in World War II, while similitaniously the absolvement of Japanese brutality and the notion that the Pacific war was a foregone conclusion and relatively unimportant.

Those who minimize and deny the holocaust are repremended and go to jail, those who minimize Japanese war crimes like Nanking are tolerated because on the whole people besides Asians don't know what happened. I don't feel that this attitude is acceptible and as an American currently working in China, feel that is is an important part of World War II that cannot be overlooked.

And believe me, the sheer jubilation the Chinese experienced here when Japan lost to the Kiwis in the world cup was by no means the fact that they loved Austrailia, but still harbored a burning hatred of the Japanese.

I'd like to expand on covok48's thoughts.

The long term cause of WW2 (at least the Japanese side of it) was Japan's rampant militarism and the attitude that, as Asians, the Japanese should run Asia without interference from Western powers. The dark side of this concept was that the Japanese felt they should be the "elder brother" to other Asians and, in general, in charge of any part of Asia that Japanese troops could control. This point of view met with resistance from other Asians, particularly the Koreans (who were Japan's first victims) and the Chinese. This Japanese aggression, underway since the 1870s, came under increasing criticism from Western powers. The desire of the Western nations, particularly the U.S. and Britain, to rein in Japanese aggression led to an embargo on Japan when Japanese troops entered French Indo-China (Vietnam and adjacent areas) in 1941 and took over. The embargo was the short-term cause of the war. Japan had few raw materials of its own. While it could get coal and mineral ores from its Chinese and Korean territories, oil was available only from Western-controlled sources, primarily Indonesia. Japan's Navy and air forces were useless without oil, so the embargo would eventually disarm Japan. Faced with the choice of surrender or striking back, Japan chose the action her history dictated. To many Japanese, the Pearl Harbor attack was an act of self-defense.

Japan's expansionist war aims were established over half a century before Pearl Harbor. No one was able to dissuade Japan from these goals short of a full-scale war. Curiously, the Japanese still hold the view that "they couldn't help themselves" and that the war, and its consequences, made Japan a victim as much as anyone else. This is what's taught in Japanese schools today and the opinion held by many Japanese. Because of this, and Japan's current economic power, other Asian nations are still concerned about century-old Japanese intentions.

Japanese colonial militarism is interesting as it basically what was the Western powers did, but without the dressing up. That stuff, "the white man's burden" or "la mission civilisatrice", never looked like anything but flimsy pretext for the Japanese.

The disturbing thing is that instead of finding it all disugusting, enough Japanese in positions of authority back then decided they wanted some of it. And then they implemented it without the "conceptual filters" used by the French or the British.

As for the Japanese today, the view cultivated among people in general is obviously one of Japan as the victim of Western, US, agression. Which is also disturbing. Not that this great power conflict that it was necessarily casts a very favourable light on the westerners either at all times. The A-bomb pretty much closed the deal regarding how the Japanese feel about themselves: The only people in the world to have been subjected to nuclear weapons. If the Nazi KZ-camps is the overriding thing that informs modern German feelings about WWII, then the Bomb is that other world-historical event that has decided how the Japanese view it.

I think they got what they deserved. The firebombing included.

I in particular, don't hate the Japanese people. I have respect for their culture, which has long corresponded with China since ancient times. But like many Chinese, I hate the Japanese Imperial Army in WWII and I resent the current government for being so shrewd and not sincerely repenting.

The A-bombs were justified, mainly because it was used to end the war. Japan was a very a stubborn nation back then. Their creed was to "Never Surrender". If something as devastating as the A-Bombs did not occur, they would've kept on fighting until every last one of them damn japanese soldiers were killed or commited Kamakazee... Even then, they'd probably starting recruiting civilians to prove their point of never surrendering.

I wonder if its that stubborness that makes them not want to sincerely repent.

I'll make one comment about the nuclear bombing of Japan. The firebomb raids on Tokyo the night of 1/2 April 1945 killed more people than both atomic bombs did.

I'll make one comment about the nuclear bombing of Japan. The firebomb raids on Tokyo the night of 1/2 April 1945 killed more people than both atomic bombs did.

From what I remember in a documentary, the nuclear bombs targeted the two cities because they had industries suppling the war. It didn't kill as many civilians as the firebombs, but it sure did wreck havoc on alot of structures. I learned about the firebombs through "the grave of the fireflies" anime. Its pretty tragic but again, Chinese people aren't going to have much sympathy though.

I think they got what they deserved. The firebombing included.

I don't think they do. Or are you saying its ok to kill civilians? Of course the Imperial Japanese Army comitted actrocities, but did the Japanese civilians, childrens, women inclued deserved to be killed in this particular manner?

After reading much reports and books on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, also the bombing raid of Tokyo, 'im still not sold on them. In the sense that they weren't needed, all those innocents did not deserve to die this way. Thats my opinion, if i were born in this era perhaps i may had a different opinion. But its not the case.

I have the same feeling about Dresden.

Edit - I would go as far as saying the firebombing raids on Japan at the end of war could be classified as crime of war.

From what I remember in a documentary, the nuclear bombs targeted the two cities because they had industries suppling the war. It didn't kill as many civilians as the firebombs, but it sure did wreck havoc on alot of structures. I learned about the firebombs through "the grave of the fireflies" anime. Its pretty tragic but again, Chinese people aren't going to have much sympathy though. Hiroshima had the headquarters of the Southern Army. If the U.S. had invaded Japan, the first part of the invasion would have been on Kyushu Island, which came under the Southern Army's command.

Nagasaki was a major shipbuilding city. Both Mitsubishi Shipyard and an Imperial Japanese Navy shipyard were there. Of course, by summer 1945 there was little point in the Japanese doing any more shipbuilding, because they'd run out of oil.

As it happens, Nagasaki was the secondary target for the second bomb. The primary target, Kokura Arsenal, was clouded over. Kokura Arsenal was the manufacturing facility for Japanese Army small arms and artillery.

Source: Richard Rhodes. The Making of the Atomic Bomb. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1988.

I don't think they do. Or are you saying its ok to kill civilians? Of course the Imperial Japanese Army comitted actrocities, but did the Japanese civilians, childrens, women inclued deserved to be killed in this particular manner?

After reading much reports and books on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, also the bombing raid of Tokyo, 'im still not sold on them. In the sense that they weren't needed, all those innocents did not deserve to die this way. Thats my opinion, if i were born in this era perhaps i may had a different opinion. But its not the case.

I have the same feeling about Dresden.

Edit - I would go as far as saying the firebombing raids on Japan at the end of war could be classified as crime of war.

I'm going to start a new thread on the neverending discussion of the morality of bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think they got what they deserved. The firebombing included.

That's just an obscene comment, besides being wildly OT.

The basic problem with the inability of the Japanese to acknowledge what they did during the war is that patriotism is so fundamentally entrenched in the national psyche. They actually teach patriotism at school. On such a view, the purpose of the teaching of Japanese history is to make Japan seem good. Of course that's rather a crude caricature, but it's basically true.

There was a big scandal about this recently. NHK, the Japanese national broadcaster, made a documentary about the "comfort women" of WWII. "Confort women" is of course the usual euphemism for women from China who were captured during the invasions and systematically raped non-stop until they died. The Japanese government is very reluctant to accept that the comfort women even existed or, if they did, that they were anything other than prostitutes who thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing. Shortly before NHK aired their documentary, the government forced them to alter it to fit the "sanitised" view of history. However, a senior producer at NHK spoke out about this government interference, plunging NHK's senior management into serious embarrassment because they were seen to have just rolled over at the government's say-so, thereby rather compromising their credentials as proper journalists. I got the inside story on this because the senior producer in question is a good friend of my flatmate!

Anyway, the moral is, this whole question is deeply tied in with Japanese patriotism, in my opinion one of the most unlovable aspects of Japanese culture. As such, there's not a whole lot one can do about it.

That's just an obscene comment, besides being wildly OT.

The basic problem with the inability of the Japanese to acknowledge what they did during the war is that patriotism is so fundamentally entrenched in the national psyche. They actually teach patriotism at school. On such a view, the purpose of the teaching of Japanese history is to make Japan seem good. Of course that's rather a crude caricature, but it's basically true.

There was a big scandal about this recently. NHK, the Japanese national broadcaster, made a documentary about the "comfort women" of WWII. "Confort women" is of course the usual euphemism for women from China who were captured during the invasions and systematically raped non-stop until they died. The Japanese government is very reluctant to accept that the comfort women even existed or, if they did, that they were anything other than prostitutes who thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing. Shortly before NHK aired their documentary, the government forced them to alter it to fit the "sanitised" view of history. However, a senior producer at NHK spoke out about this government interference, plunging NHK's senior management into serious embarrassment because they were seen to have just rolled over at the government's say-so, thereby rather compromising their credentials as proper journalists. I got the inside story on this because the senior producer in question is a good friend of my flatmate!

Anyway, the moral is, this whole question is deeply tied in with Japanese patriotism, in my opinion one of the most unlovable aspects of Japanese culture. As such, there's not a whole lot one can do about it.


Such ideology is only going to be detrimental in the long run for Japan. It can only stir even more hatred by the Chinese if they deny or try to lessen what actually happened. You know if China ever goes to war with Japan, it's not gonna be pretty...

By the way, it maybe obscene to foreigners but many native Chinese believes the Japanese deserved the bombing. Of course people who aren't in chinese shoes would be unbiased, but the reality is that the Chinese will be biased towards this sensitive issue and it will remain that way because the tales will be passed on to future generations.

Well, it just is obscene no matter what your nationality. Even if someone believed that the Japanese soldiers who carried out the various atrocities deserved it, it wouldn't follow that hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians - men, women, and children - deserved it. The conflation of the two is the kind of mindset that leads to terrorist attacks: your soldiers killed some of my civilians, so I'm going to kill some of your civilians in revenge...