one trait that i feel is not discussed nearly as often on these forums is expansive.

i thought i'd start a thread to debate the merits of this trait.

is it not discussed because people think it sucks and don't use it?

is it a poor, average, or good trait?

how can people leverage it most effectively?

what traits and starting techs is it synchronistic with?

as a result, what are the best leaders with expansive?

one thing i read in a thread in general discussions today is that people often think of expansive only in terms of more food and more health = more pop = bigger cities, etc. but, someone mentioned that expansive + cheap granaries + slavery = more efficient whipping which means it could actually help horizontal as opposed to vertical 'expansion'.

let the discussion begin :)

Expansive also leads to more/better chopping, since you can clear cut without worrying as much about losing the health benefits from forests. Furthermore, you can more easily build unhealthy buildings like forges, factories, drydocks, coal plants, etc. without a penalty and/or without spending time building healthy buildings like aqueducts and grocers. These benefits are indirect and hard to quantify exactly, but I think over the course of a complete game and spread over your entire empire they add up.

One thing I like to do with an expansive leader is to whip a granary as soon as the city grows to size 2. That means you spend 1.5 times as long at size 1, but you quickly make up for it by growing to 3, 4, 5, etc. twice as fast.

The main drawback to expansive, I think, is that it's not as obvious how to take advantage of it as with some traits. Aggressive is pretty obvious -- build barracks and units and get to warring. Financial is also obvious -- build cottages, lots of them. Expansive isn't to straightforward.

The advantage is that your expansiveness helps with pretty much any strategy. If you're aggressive and you want to go for a cultural win, you've basically wasted a trait. Expansiveness is good for any kind of victory if you work it properly.

as a result, what are the best leaders with expansive?

Basically what Dr. Elmer said, except I'll add that, in my opinion of course, the best leader with expansive is Caesar. Expansive and organized have good synergy, and add Rome's legions to the equation and it all comes together very well.

Agreeing with the above. Expansive is a more subtle trait than some others, but is all-around useful. Some don't rate it so highly, as happiness is often more of a problem regarding growth than health, but it's a good persistent bonus, and it gets better the higher the difficulty level is. It works nicely with slavery (for reasons stated above), as well as nationalism later on. Basically, anything that can sacrifice people to accomplish something dovetails well with cheaper granaries and extra health. It can also work well with specialists, as you can support more people due to healthier environments. Also, it's obviously a handy trait when you're dealing with lots of negative health problems, like starting on a flood plain or near jungles, and allows you to build forges, coal plants, and dry docks relatively guilt-free. Not a power trait, but it works nicely with others.

I'd also vote for Caesar on this one as well. An all-around good leader and a good civ.

I've been playing a lot of OCC games lately and love Expansive for those. You're limited in the resources that you can get/trade for and while happiness can be controlled with the Globe Theatre, health becomes a real issue during the later game. Two extra health points mean two extra tiles worked or two extra specialists. With OCC, victory is always a close call at the higher levels, and those two extra points can make a real difference.

With regular games, you can just go take what you need to make up for lak of resources around where you start, so Expansive isn't one of my favorite traits. It does get better as the difficulty level rises, but I don't think I'd ever choose a leader because he has Expansive.

Expansive has direct benefits with Hereditary Rule and Caste System.

It has benefits for Slavery and Nationhood.

It works well with chopping, and equally well in Flood Plain heavy starts.

It works to cover the added :yuck: of Forges, Factories and power plants.

In terms of traits, it works well with all, as it can compliment each trait directly or indirectly.

one thing i read in a thread in general discussions today is that people often think of expansive only in terms of more food and more health = more pop = bigger cities, etc. but, someone mentioned that expansive + cheap granaries + slavery = more efficient whipping which means it could actually help horizontal as opposed to vertical 'expansion'.

I'm not sure I buy that argument. Whipping sooner, perhaps (you only need half as much population to whip the granary), but Granaries aren't optional for Whip driven production. You might be able to argue that Expansive helps because your new cities become self supporting more quickly, maybe.... It's definitely a city trait, though (as opposed to Spiritual or Industrious).

The key ancient tech for Expansive is Pottery, which has three pre-reqs (The Wheel, Fishing, Agriculture). Agriculture is the big one, as it unlocks the health resources that are improved by Granaries.

Of the Expansive leaders, only Cyrus starts with Agriculture. Victoria, Julius, and Isabella start with Fishing, Genghis starts with the Wheel, Peter and Otto are just out of luck.

Cyrus also gets a small synergy boost for his Unique Unit, as Immortals call for The Wheel (already part of the pottery path) and Animal Husbandry (Cyrus begins with both prerequisites).

Furthermore, part of the key to growing large cities is keeping them happy, and the Creative trait provides decent weapons for that (eventually).

I think you can make a pretty good argument that Cyrus is the best Expansive leader (note: this differs from Best Leader with Expansive trait). But I don't think it's a lock by any means.

In particular, Hereditary Rule provides the means to regulate happy much earlier than theaters and coliseums, and that part of the tree plays right into Isabella's strengths. Victoria, being financial, gets a better gain from the extra population. Caesar gets a tax break on the civic costs, which go up with city population (Edit: changed last word for clarity).

In particular, Hereditary Rule provides the means to regulate happy much earlier than theaters and coliseums, and that part of the tree plays right into Isabella's strengths. Victoria, being financial, gets a better gain from the extra population. Caesar gets a tax break on the civic costs, which go up with city size.

Reason I say Caesar is the best is because of the cheap granaries, courthouses, lighthouses (assuming there is seafood close by), and the whipping. Not to mention civic upkeep rises with your population (if I recall correctly it does). The only thing that holds Caesar back is the obvious lack of culture, which can always be eliminated by taking another civ's holy city or with stonehenge. I wonder what Augustus' traits will be.

I'm putting Augustus down as two of the following traits: creative, imperial, organized. I think he's equally disposed towards any of those.

Futurehermit, do you have an aversion towards capital letters? And the definition of a paragraph isn't the same as that of a sentence, you know...

Futurehermit, do you have an aversion towards capital letters? And the definition of a paragraph isn't the same as that of a sentence, you know...

Good thing is, offensive as they are towards proper form, his posts are easy to read. As long as he doesn't try writing a bigger text in that manner, it works.

Futurehermit, do you have an aversion towards capital letters? And the definition of a paragraph isn't the same as that of a sentence, you know...

hey, i'm a phd student. i write tons of formal stuff. these are computer game web-forums.

gimme a break :P

I never really looked much at Expansive until I started playing as Vicky for Sisiutil's ALC threads. I like the idea of not hitting health ceilings too early, letting you develop your cottages sooner, which enhances your research. You can live with jungles, which helps your early land grab. Cheap Granaries cannot be overstated or said enough.

I never thought about the forges and factories, but I notice that I seldom need Aqueducts and other such buildings (Grocers work for gold productions).

The snag with expansive is that I invariably find I hit the happiness cap before the health cap, at least for the first few ages of the game. (It's also far less of a problem to hit the health cap, since at least the unhealthy citizens still work, even if they cost food). This means that in practice I see virtually no benefit from the extra health until the industrial age. Cheap granaries are worth having, but they aren't that expensive anyway.

While still of some use due to the cheap granaries, Expansive is a decent candidate for the worst trait in my book.

expansive has a few advantages, particularly when using a specialist economy:
- you use the slider to gain the happiness you need,
- your trait allows you to overcome (a bit) the healthiness problem

But that's "late".
Early it allows you to settle in the floodplains, in the jungle, not necessarily near fresh water = more flexibility in the city placement.
I find build anywhere without healthiness problems is a real gain.

However, it's still a weak trait, since +3 health isn't needed, most of the time.

The only situation where i like it is when going cultural = allowing bigger cities, using a specialists economy.

Even tough i agree with you, exp is weakest trait, and unless playing deity which is still very rare, all other traits are simply better

hey, i'm a phd student. i write tons of formal stuff. these are computer game web-forums.

gimme a break :P
Intentionally obfuscating your writing is even more obnoxious. Typos and ESL are understandable, but you are just petulantly making life more difficult for the very same folks from whom you want help.

anyone who complains about lack of capitalization hasn't played enough multiplayer games. :p

4 evn more enligntenment, play sum 1st-person shooters where they have bgn abolishing vowels.

You can do better than Expansive for sure, but it's not a kick in the nuts either. Sure Aggressive, Financial and a few other traits get the love, but Expansive may be simply a poor cousin, not an albatross around your neck...

Intentionally obfuscating your writing is even more obnoxious. Typos and ESL are understandable, but you are just petulantly making life more difficult for the very same folks from whom you want help.

huh? just cuz i don't use capital letters i'm making life difficult for people.

considering the shyte i've read sometimes on these forums, i can't believe i'm getting grief for this <_<

Peter's expansive/philosophical is ideal for sim-civ players (aka buildaholics), and if you play your cards right, his Cossacks can put the smack down on any competitors as you make the push for the win.

Whipping. Granaries.

Theoretical city-location which contains at least 1 grassland-forest in its radius.
Turn 1: Build city, begin granary construction.
Turn 10: Assuming average terrain, city has just grown to size 2. Whip the Granary and get a 20 hammer overflow (unless the +100% bonus does carry over...).
Turn 11: Use the overflow on whatever project you want; obelisk, archer, axeman, barracks...
Turn 20: Whipping unhappiness is over, city is at size 2 again, and the food-box is half-full. What do you think should be done next? (Hint: the answer involves whipping).

So...in 20 turns, your new city has twice the normal growth rate, has completed 1 or 2 projects and is standing poised to begin whips for the next one. This is extremely fast development.

Usually, a new city at this point is on the edge of size-3 growth, and has put out about 40 base-hammers of production. The expansive/whipped city has put out 70 about 70 base-hammers and is prepared to add in around 30 more. The production yield of your city has basicly doubled with minimal cost to growth due to the granary. Whipping every 10 turns is like adding a 3-hammer/turn bonus for the city's productivity, and isn't thatwhat really matters in the beginning?

Expansive = ideal whipping machine.
The health bonus doesn't really help much until the latter half of the game, but that means you have a trait that is good in the beginning and late game. Useful stuff.

Of course anybody can whip a granary on turn 15...but you don't really get any overflow that way, so the production bonus on the Granary is like a free 30-hammers in the beginning. An extra axeman per city?

I agree with your conclusion that expansive results in good early game whipping, but your numbers are off in a few cases. And you haven't highlighted the best strategy.

First off, it would take 11 turns to reach 2 population working the tile you describe. After those 11 turns, you've put 44 hammers toward the granary. If you pop-rush now, you'll go up to 74 hammers, enough to complete the granary on turn 12 with 14 overflow. However, those 14 overflow will have the 100% expansive-working-granary bonus removed, and turn into only 7. That means, the whip produced only 23 hammers for you. This is a pretty dismal performance, especially considering that, without the whipping bug, you'd expect somewhere between 30 and 60 hammers from that citizen (38 to be exact). So, over 12 turns, the total hammer output was 69.

The better scenario would be to spend 1 turn working on the granary, putting 4 hammers into it. Then start working on something else, maybe an obelisk, it doesn't matter. Then when you're up to 2 pop, whip the granary. You'll complete it, getting 60 hammers for your 1 pop (with 4 overflow, which gets reduced to 2). That gives you a total output, over 12 turns, of 84 hammers. Not too shabby. And, of course, you're set to whip again after another 10-11 turns, only the next time, with the help of the granary, you'll recover even faster. This whole calculus is significantly improved if you're working a floodplain or food resource. Working a 6 food wheat tile, you'd have your granary after only 5 turns.

Expansive Would Probabbly be Very useful on an Archipelago, Tiny Maps Game or most Archipelago game where Hammers are very low and there's a large supply of Seafood resources, using the whip regularly after the ganary to whip your buildings/units and later drafting you also get cheap habours so in combination of the great lighthouse you'll be flying in research especially if you get both collosus and great lighthouse, 4 trade routes per city in the middle ages plus 50% better trade routes in all your cities not bad at all (Note this is if you've already researched Currency and Compass)

I find it hard not to just type things correctly. From my perspective it would take deliberate effort to ratchet down my communication for a web forum. It also wouldn't make any sense, since regardless of the location, people are reading what you wrote.

Either it makes sense to use capitalization and punctuation or it doesn't. I can't see how you'd see it making sense in one instance and not another.

And I've played competitive FPS games for years, which hasn't changed this fact for me.

The early pop-cap seems to be happiness, since you'll stumble across food, seafood or animals pretty quickly anyway, while most of the time you will only happiness source will be ivory, gold or silver, and those are more scarce.

The early pop-cap seems to be happiness, since you'll stumble across food, seafood or animals pretty quickly anyway, while most of the time you will only happiness source will be ivory, gold or silver, and those are more scarce.

you should play the trait, if you want a gain:

see that gem in the jungle?
just settle on it, don't need iron, just mining...
Health isn't going to be a problem, since your expansive

Exp can't just be compared to other traits. The closest one by uselessness is creative - little early gain, insignificant long-term gain - most of MP games solves before modern age, so that health bonus have almost no influence in the beginning as you have to reach city size of ~10+ to feel health problems even on flood plains.

huh? just cuz i don't use capital letters i'm making life difficult for people.

considering the shyte i've read sometimes on these forums, i can't believe i'm getting grief for this <_<
When I see text like that I think the person is illiterate and/or immature and have a lot of trouble taking them seriously. I'm going to take a wild guess and say I'm not the only one who gets this impression. Personally, I'd be embarassed to type like that... but you can do whatever floats your boat!

When I see text like that I think the person is illiterate and/or immature and have a lot of trouble taking them seriously. I'm going to take a wild guess and say I'm not the only one who gets this impression. Personally, I'd be embarassed to type like that... but you can do whatever floats your boat!

I personally don't care about how one types/writes, just as long as it's legible. Besides, this is a forum about a game, not English 101.

I agree with your conclusion that expansive results in good early game whipping, but your numbers are off in a few cases. And you haven't highlighted the best strategy.
Yeah...I was pulling them fromm memory, but I think I got in the ballpark.

First off, it would take 11 turns to reach 2 population working the tile you describe.
Oops, my bad, 11 turns 'til growth, not 10. Doesn't change a heck of a lot anyways.

After those 11 turns, you've put 44 hammers toward the granary. If you pop-rush now, you'll go up to 74 hammers, enough to complete the granary on turn 12 with 14 overflow.
A contraire!! The 30 base-hammer whip yield gets doubled, netting you 104 hammers for your granary. The value of the whip is equal to the price of the granary, so your overflow is equal to the amount of hammers that you had dedicated conventionally to the Granary: 44. What I am uncertain of is whether this carries over to the next project as 44 hammers or 22.

However, those 14 overflow will have the 100% expansive-working-granary bonus removed, and turn into only 7. That means, the whip produced only 23 hammers for you. This is a pretty dismal performance, especially considering that, without the whipping bug, you'd expect somewhere between 30 and 60 hammers from that citizen (38 to be exact). So, over 12 turns, the total hammer output was 69.
I can't really respond well to this since it was based off of some incorrect math. Regardless, I like to do all of my calculations in "base-hammers"; production that is unmodified by any bonuses.

The better scenario would be to spend 1 turn working on the granary, putting 4 hammers into it. Then start working on something else, maybe an obelisk, it doesn't matter.
Again based on the assumption that the whip-yield when applied to the granary, did not get doubled. You're actually going to get the same amount of production whether you apply 2 or 22 base-hammers(which then get a 100% bonus) to the granary, since the granary itself is completely paid for by that single whip.

Then when you're up to 2 pop, whip the granary. You'll complete it, getting 60 hammers for your 1 pop (with 4 overflow, which gets reduced to 2).
So...why did the whip only net you 30 hammers in the first example? This math here is good at least.

That gives you a total output, over 12 turns, of 84 hammers.
2 base-production * 12 turns = 24 base-hammers. Whipping nets you 30 base-hammers. That is a total of 54 base-hammers generated. The granary applies a +100% bonus to 30 of these base-hammers, giving you a total hammer-yield of 84 for the price of 54.

Not too shabby. And, of course, you're set to whip again after another 10-11 turns, only the next time, with the help of the granary, you'll recover even faster.
Gladly, we do not disagree with our conclusions. Expansive means whipping works faster, better and cheaper.

This whole calculus is significantly improved if you're working a floodplain or food resource. Working a 6 food wheat tile, you'd have your granary after only 5 turns. Yeah, the story of whipping, and especially Expansive whipping gets even better when you have a larger food supply available. Expansive whipping is limited only by how quickly you can grow to size 2, regular whipping requires both size 2 and at least 30-hammers queued up.

I think that my conclusion for the advantage of Expansive-whipping is that you basicly get an extra 30 hammers for free in the beginning. This is significant because that bonus can come within 12 turns of your founding the city (assuming pottery is available), and so allows you to build momentum. If you don't capitolize on that though, then those extra 30 hammers will just fade into obscurity and insignificance.

A contraire!! The 30 base-hammer whip yield gets doubled, netting you 104 hammers for your granary. The value of the whip is equal to the price of the granary, so your overflow is equal to the amount of hammers that you had dedicated conventionally to the Granary: 44. What I am uncertain of is whether this carries over to the next project as 44 hammers or 22.

Try it in a game. Thats the whipping bug, you only ever produce hammers from whipping equal to the nearest neccessary multiple of 30. If you need 16 more hammers, even if you have a 300% bonus, the whip is still only going to give you 30 hammers.

Edit... Note that if the bug were fixed, your math would be completely accurate.

Try it in a game. Thats the whipping bug, you only ever produce hammers from whipping equal to the nearest neccessary multiple of 30. If you need 16 more hammers, even if you have a 300% bonus, the whip is still only going to give you 30 hammers.

Edit... Note that if the bug were fixed, your math would be completely accurate.

Yeah, but you can just avoid the bug by swapping projects: Instead of putting 44 hammers into the Granary, and then pop-rushing it, you put 4 hammers into the Granary, and 20 hammers into something else. Then you rush the Granary for 1 pop resulting in 8 carryover which gets adjusted down to (about?) 4. Same result: you have 24 hammers for "something else", plus your Granary. Only disadvantage is that the "something else" can't be worker/settler if you want to grow.

Yeah, but you can just avoid the bug by swapping projects: Instead of putting 44 hammers into the Granary, and then pop-rushing it, you put 4 hammers into the Granary, and 20 hammers into something else. Then you rush the Granary for 1 pop resulting in 8 carryover which gets adjusted down to (about?) 4. Same result: you have 24 hammers for "something else", plus your Granary. Only disadvantage is that the "something else" can't be worker/settler if you want to grow.

Exactly what I said in my explanation above.

Try it in a game. Thats the whipping bug, you only ever produce hammers from whipping equal to the nearest neccessary multiple of 30. If you need 16 more hammers, even if you have a 300% bonus, the whip is still only going to give you 30 hammers.

Edit... Note that if the bug were fixed, your math would be completely accurate.
For the sake of not furthering a pointless argument, I shall test this immediately. Thanks for the heads up that this bug might occur.

Exactly what I said in my explanation above.
Indeed, it is so!

Exactly what I said in my explanation above.

True, except you said there would be 4 hammers of overflow, when there are really 8 (you put 4 hammers into the Granary on an earlier turn, plus 4 more on the turn you actually finish it).

Actually, now that I think about it, I think you can poprush the Granary for 1 pop even if you have 0 hammers in it, because the 60 hammers covers the full cost. I'll have to test that.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think you can poprush the Granary for 1 pop even if you have 0 hammers in it, because the 60 hammers covers the full cost. I'll have to test that.

0/60 would induce the extra cost.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think you can poprush the Granary for 1 pop even if you have 0 hammers in it, because the 60 hammers covers the full cost. I'll have to test that.

EDIT: Let me start by saying the whole timeout issue is very annoying at times.

Anyway, the issue is as follows.

0/60 does incur the penalty towards whipping.

However, it is possible to whip from 0/60.

If you can accumulate a bonus to production in a given city that, when applied to the 30:hammers:/1pop ratio, would result in the number of hammers being produced to be greater than or equal to base number of hammers required for the build (the 0/X), then you can whip from zero for one pop, bypassing the 0/X penalty.

production_bonus*30:hammers:*n_pop > or = X

However, the bonuses provided by traits do not apply to this. Presumably, they are specifically coded to not apply towards this. I'm sure the issue came up in testing, but the full extent of the bug was not fully appreciated as the production bonus provided by a trait was easily identified and could easily be specifically modified.

To test this, try building a Granary in your capital which has a Forge in it already and your state religion is present in the capital, while running Bureaucracy and Organized Religion.

25% from the Forge, 25% from Organized Religion towards constructing a building, and 50% from Bureaucracy are the relevant bonuses.

0.25 + 0.25 + 0.50 = 1.00

The 100% bonus, when applied to the 30:hammers:/1pop produces 60:hammers: for 1pop.

30 + 30*1.00 = 60

One pop Granary whip from 0/60.

As I said, the trait specific bonuses are ignored by the whip process, but are picked up once again when the whipped hammers are applied to the build. EDIT: In hindsight, this could not be true. Somehow, the trait specific production bonuses are working as intended, yet the other production bonuses are not.

EDIT: Argh, double post.

In order to whip a granary from 0/60 for 1 population at normal, quick, or marathon speeds you need a total production bonus of 200%. The 100% bonus from expansive does definitely count toward this. So, as an expansive civ, you'd need an additonal 100% bonus from some combination of sources.

The math behind this is as follows:

Adjusted cost for whipping with no invested hammers = 60 * 1.5 = 90

Adjusted cost for production bonuses = 90 / (1+2.0) = 30

Get number of pop to be sacrificed = 30/30 = 1.

The number of hammers actually produced is determined by an entirely separate function. As stated before, you simply find the nearest multiple of 30 that would give enough hammers to complete the project.

So, if you were expansive, runnning beauacracy and org. rel., and had a forge, you could rush a granary from 0/60 for 1 population with 0 hammers overflow.

This may be true in theory (I ain't going to argue with the maths) but irrelevant in practice- build a full cost forge to help build a cheap granary? You'd almost certainly build the granary first.

i'm *illiterate* because i don't use capital letters?

of course illiterate means can't read, which doesn't make sense to me.

maybe it's that i type 60+ words a minute and can't be bothered to hit the shift key all the time. or maybe it's cuz these are damn webforums and not a classroom?

Could I suggest you guys just stop talking about literacy, and whatnot, before the mods step in?

This may be true in theory (I ain't going to argue with the maths) but irrelevant in practice- build a full cost forge to help build a cheap granary? You'd almost certainly build the granary first.

Heh, that's kind of the point. Getting a 100% production bonus is extremely difficult in the early-mid game. Difficult to the point of making this something not worth worrying about. It's far more efficient to just apply the one hammer and allow the trait production bonus to work.

25% from the Forge, 25% from Organized Religion towards constructing a building, and 50% from Bureaucracy are the relevant bonuses.

0.25 + 0.25 + 0.50 = 1.00


Bureaucracy won't help you test this, since it's treated differently (and doesn't affect slavery) Use the Heroic Epic if you want to play with the effects of a >=100% production bonus.

Your assumption is correct, however. If you try to whip something costing less than 30 * (prod. multiplier), then you do not incur any penalty for whipping with zero hammers invested.

maybe it's that i type 60+ words a minute and can't be bothered to hit the shift key

Gibberish is gibberish, no matter how quickly it's typed. The presentation of your posts generates the impression that you don't believe your ideas to be worth reading.

Gibberish is gibberish, no matter how quickly it's typed. The presentation of your posts generates the impression that you don't believe your ideas to be worth reading.

it's not gibberish just cuz there's no capital letters. it's what you say. it's not like i don't use punctuation or something like that. maybe you could post something worth reading so that i might learn a thing or two? your capital letters aren't sufficient for me to learn what it is exactly that you want me to do.

As the advertising industry is well aware: packaging sells. This applies as much to ideas as goods. No-one is obliged to focus on rules of grammar but ignoring them is likely to detract from the content of the post. I'm not saying that this is ideal but I suspect that it is relevant.

well, if people don't want to buy my goods cuz i don't use capital letters then i don't care. the mature people will pay attention.

Bureaucracy won't help you test this, since it's treated differently (and doesn't affect slavery) Use the Heroic Epic if you want to play with the effects of a >=100% production bonus.

Your assumption is correct, however. If you try to whip something costing less than 30 * (prod. multiplier), then you do not incur any penalty for whipping with zero hammers invested.

Have you tested these statements?

First, the bureaucracy production bonus is applied identically to any other production multiplier and, as such, impacts the population cost of slavery. Maybe you're confusing it with the commerce bonus, which is applied in a unique fashion.

Second, are you asserting that, if I have a 100% production bonus and attempt to whip a granary from 0/60, I will only have to spend 1 population to do it? If so, you're wrong. Everything that is whipped from 0 hammers has it's cost multipled by 1.5 first. For a warrior, that still only puts the cost at 22, so you can still whip for 1 pop without any previous investment. For an archer, though, the cost is modified up to 37. So, with no bonus, it'll cost you 2 pop from turn 1. With a 25% bonus, though, you can cover the adjusted cost of 37 hammers and rush it for just 1 pop from turn 1.

Note: This post is off-topic and concerns the issue of posts without capitalization

If you're interested in an impartial observer's opinion about the capitalization issue, here's mine.

When I read a post that doesn't have proper capitalization, spelling, grammar, etc., I find it jarring. Unless the content is compelling, I'll often stop reading. The further from standard written English the text is, the less likely I am to force myself to interpret the rest.

In the case in point, I don't find the lack of capitalization too bad, but it is a little distracting. I do think it would be harder for me to type without capitalization than with it, so I find it kind of interesting that someone's developed that style.

I think non-standard written English verges on a writing dialect. If you know it and use it, you probably don't notice it. Since I don't, it's interpretation is not automatic for me, and I find it distracting.

Good content goes a long way, and there are some non-native writers of English here who I will make (and don't mind making) great efforts to read because a) they're very helpful or b) I encourage them to use English and get better at it by doing so.

I won't make any more comments on this unless someone specifically asks me.

[/offtopic-post]

That said, I am enjoying the issues and analysis in this thread.

well, if people don't want to buy my goods cuz i don't use capital letters then i don't care. the mature people will pay attention.

That's it - that was the last straw! You've driven me over the edge! Your lack of capitalization has ruined my life. I hope you're happy. :mischief:

Second, are you asserting that, if I have a 100% production bonus and attempt to whip a granary from 0/60, I will only have to spend 1 population to do it? If so, you're wrong. Everything that is whipped from 0 hammers has it's cost multipled by 1.5 first. For a warrior, that still only puts the cost at 22, so you can still whip for 1 pop without any previous investment. For an archer, though, the cost is modified up to 37. So, with no bonus, it'll cost you 2 pop from turn 1. With a 25% bonus, though, you can cover the adjusted cost of 37 hammers and rush it for just 1 pop from turn 1.

Then something even weirder is going on, because that explanation doesn't cover everything either.

On Epic speed with HE+Forge (+125%), whipping a Longbowman from 0/62 costs 1 population. If the 1.5x penalty applied here, the cost from 0/62 would be 2 population, since 1.5*62 > ceiling[2.25]*30. Something is effectively making the penalty vanish.

On Epic speed with HE+Forge (+125%), whipping a Longbowman from 0/62 costs 1 population. If the 1.5x penalty applied here, the cost from 0/62 would be 2 population, since 1.5*62 > ceiling[2.25]*30. Something is effectively making the penalty vanish.

What version of the game are you running? In the current version (1.61), the Longbowman costs 75 hammers at Epic speed.

Also, each pop is worth 44 hammers at Epic speed, not 30.

What version of the game are you running?

1.61 vanilla

What's the whip cost for a Longbow with HE+Forge on Epic in your game?

hey, i'm a phd student. i write tons of formal stuff. these are computer game web-forums.

gimme a break :P

So? You're talking with people and trying to get across what you're saying clearly. I didn't even actually read the post after seeing how it was written, but I stayed and read the responses since I thought it was a good topic.

i'm *illiterate* because i don't use capital letters?

of course illiterate means can't read, which doesn't make sense to me.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illiterate

il·lit·er·ate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltr-t)
adj.

1.
a. Unable to read and write.
b. Having little or no formal education.

2.
a. Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature.
b. Violating prescribed standards of speech or writing.

maybe it's that i type 60+ words a minute and can't be bothered to hit the shift key all the time.

If you can type 60+ words a minute, that's less reason to not type correctly, not more.

or maybe it's cuz these are damn webforums and not a classroom?

And they teach you how to write in classrooms and make you use the language correctly so people can understand what the heck you're saying! They're not doing it just to make your life harder.

well, if people don't want to buy my goods cuz i don't use capital letters then i don't care. the mature people will pay attention.

Actually, wander the Internet enough and you'll find that it's the more mature forums where people are sticklers for grammar, not the other way around. The simple fact of that matter is that when you type that way you are saying "I don't care enough about what I'm saying to put it in the commonly accepted form easily understood by all." It doesn't even matter whether you agree with the proper use of grammar, once you say that you don't care about whether people read your post or not, why should anyone? If you're unwilling to hit the shift button a few times to make it easier for me to read what you're saying, why should I care about what you have to say?

What's the whip cost for a Longbow with HE+Forge on Epic in your game?

From 0/75? 2 Population.

From 1/75? 1 Population.

roflmao! i can't *believe* the grief i'm getting for not using capitals on a goddamn computer gaming web forum.

if you don't read my posts cuz i don't use capitals then good riddance! like i said, the people who i care about reading my posts will read them.

it's not like i'm not typing english or avoiding punctuation. good grief people.

Truth be told, I really don't bother with judging the writing and focus on what they are trying to say.

To me criticizing the lack of capitals reads like nitpicky spamming.

As for expansionistic? It's not flashy, but it's not the end of the world if the random civ you get has it either...

Have you tested these statements?

First, the bureaucracy production bonus is applied identically to any other production multiplier and, as such, impacts the population cost of slavery. Maybe you're confusing it with the commerce bonus, which is applied in a unique fashion.

Second, are you asserting that, if I have a 100% production bonus and attempt to whip a granary from 0/60, I will only have to spend 1 population to do it? If so, you're wrong.

Yes, Bureaucracy is applied as normal.

It's possible that the test I ran, because it was with an Expansive leader, exceeded the 50% cost increase as a result of a 200% boost to production (25% OrgRel, 25% Forge, 50% Bureaucracy, 100% Expansive). I did not have a chance to verify it, and, given the extreme measures you would need to utilize so limited an option, I do not think it is justified to worry much about it.

However, no combination of the above bonuses, aside from having all four in play at once, provided a 1 pop whip of a 0/60 Granary. Yes, you can whip a Granary for 1 pop from 0/60, but at the very least only under the conditions I listed; the Expansive trait's bonus may or may not be a factor in this.

That said, I've heard somewhere that the excess cost may or may not be appropriately applied, in so much as the necessary excess hammers are actually returned, suggesting that the extra cost is, at least in some cases, more in place to limit whipping by making it appear less attractive to whip, or by making it impossible to whip due to too high a cost in pop, or by some other means (happiness limit?), or perhaps even as a measure to prevent abuse of the production bonus related whip bug.