It seems all 3 of my SGs have finished at the same time, so I thought I'd start one to pass these summer evenings.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/818/jaguarwarrior1il.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
(image in public domain)

The jaguar gets mocked way too often for my liking.

"But he's useless! I'd rather have a swordsman!"
"Look at the praetorian!"
"Just use an axerush!"

I personally think the Jaguar rocks, and I want this SG to prove it. Basically his lack of an iron-requirement means you don't need to build a settler before you attack nearby civs. You don't need to build a worker to hook up the metal either. Plus Monty is aggressive. This means (a) Cheap barracks - even earlier jaguar rushes are possible and (b) Combat 1 almost makes up for their reduced strength.

The Scenario

We are a tribe of jaguars, trapped in the aztec jungle. The enemies are very close and there are too many of them. We must fight our way out!

The Settings

Civ: Aztec, Montezuma (Aggressive, Spiritual)
Difficulty: Monarch
Speed: Epic
Map: Custom Continents
Number of continents: 2
Map Size: Standard
No. of AI civs: 10
Climate: Tropical
Sea Level: Normal
Starting Era: Ancient
Barbarians: Raging

Variant Rules

(1) We may never build a settler. We fight our way out!
(2) Our initial tech order is: Mining -> Bronze Working -> Iron Working. We should make use of the jaguar.

The Start

Now this is a nice start!

http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/3088/start8eq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Rules

Normal SG etiquette: 24 hours to post a "Got It" and 48 hours to play and post. Please request a skip/swap if you anticipate being away.

I'll discuss strategy when we have a few players signed up. I'd like a roster of 5 or 6. I'll check back tomorrow to see how we're doing.

Roster:
sooooo
blid
Asperge
pigswill
Kikinit
Cosmichail

I don't know why I smell blood in this game. Sign me in :D

Raging barbs and no archery before IW. Gimme wariooooors. At least, it is in a hell of crowded continent, so maybe we won't see a single barb (=>Polyannish style)

Do you want me Sooooo ? I want to fight a real battle with a real warrior:)

@Blid and Asperge: Welcome! I'll add you to the roster.

Can I join in?
Build no workers either. Always slavery.

sooooo, you should buy a bike or something to pass those summer evenings with :p . I am involved in most of those SG's that are finishing at once so I too am running out of them. Will ya have me in yours?

Nice start there by the way.

Can I join in?

Sure!

Build no workers either. Always slavery.

We won't be doing that. Do you still want to join?

@Kikinit: Welcome.

Now we have some players, let's discuss our build order. We start with hunting so those elephants will provide much needed hammers and gold for us. I think we may be able to get stonehenge and a barracks before we research IW. So my initial thought was:

Scout -> Worker -> Warrior -> Stonehenge -> Barracks -> Jaguars

I would settle in place. This is a damn good start position

Now concerning builds, I thought warrior->warrior->... and then decide according to situation

Raging barbs can be a pain, even on monarch. See Bede Warhorses game start

I agree crowded continent is different but let's not take chances before we know the neighbourhood

Still happy to join if you'll have me.

Cool, we're ready to start then. If one more wants to join that's fine. What do others think about the build order?

I can't see pictures at the moment:cry: , so can't comment. a save would be nice for me

I agree that there settling in place is the best. Amazing start you generated there sooooo. With raging barbs and our city not on a hill, I'd prefer to see a couple of warriors rather than another scout. Or maybe warrior -> worker -> warrior -> Stonehenge.

Hey there Jaguars stuck in the jungle.......

Did you say you might need a 6th player. The more I read this variant the more I like it. I love the jaguar's as in my own SG HN01 they proved to be quite good in taking cities. So if you'll have me I would love to join. I usually play my turns the same day or night. And 10 civs oh I like the sound of that, lots of warring my favourite past time.

@Asperge: the save is attached.

@Cosmichail: Welcome, you're added.

I'll play some turns today. So right now I'm thinking I'll make Warrior, Worker, Warrior.

thanks, sooooo. That's a very nice starting position!

I have different ideas how to start:

city: worker > workboat > warrior > barracks > stonehenge? ( or stone henge > barracks is maybe better)
Tech: fishing (for workboat) > mining > bronze > iron ( maybe AH inbetween). > wheel (for roading for our jaquars)

I love having fish in my capital, want to make immediately use of it.

@Asperge, sooooo : we must had different experiences with raging barbs :crazyeye:
My improvements always got pillaged and I figured that it is useless to get improvements until I have an offensive defense (sea food is a nice exception). But phants being west of city changes situation a bit. They are relatively safe. Let's at least start with a warrior, our lonely scout won't do us any good against barbs


fishing (for workboat) > mining > bronze > iron ( maybe AH inbetween).
Jul 01, 2006 12:12 PM

See Variant rule N°2. I fear we won't have clam soup before long :)

@Cosmichail: Welcome, you're added

Thank you very much......

And that starting spot is sweet....and we don't even need iron.....

Blid, i think barbs will get really angry (=axeman) after we discovered ironworking. Therefore 2 warriors just outside our borders will be enough, fortified on jungle-hills.
I would with this tech-path certainly begin with a worker, maybe preceded by a scout ...then 2 or 3 warriors.

Don't forget we have only one city to defend till we have jaquars

Gah, I HATE penalty shoot-outs so much. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrlet's play some civ.

I moved our scout onto the jungle hill and saw a grassland gems just outside the BFC. I thought for a while but in the end settled in place. I know a grassland gems is the perfect tile for a capital to have, but it would have meant not having the clams and (more importantly) moving to 1 square off the coast. As soon as we founded the city I could see Cyrus' borders to the West over the water. Start with warrior and mining.

Sure enough on turn 4 we meet him.

http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/8915/meetcyrus1jf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

We also pop a scout from a hut on the same turn. We're packed nice and tightly here as on turn 6 we meet Huanya Capac.

On turn 10 we meet Elizabeth. Turn 11 our scout kills a wolf. Mining -> Bronze Working.

We kill a lion and finish a warrior at the same time as reaching size 2. Sugar on river is helping us here. Start a worker to camp the ivory.

We kill another lion but our other scout in the forest is killed by a lion. Buddhism FIDL in 3370 BC. Scout kills bear. Warrior kills lion.

Our remaining scout goes into open terrain to pop a hut. All he gets is experience which is worthless as he dies next turn. With our scouts dead I start a second warrior once our worker has completed. Bronze working completes on the same turn and we start Iron Working. Warrior kills wolf.

Can't see any copper in the whole map. One camp is finished and another is due in 4 turns. We revolted to slavery (no anarchy).

Results of scouting:

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/4391/map28005ns.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I played 40 turns. The next players can play 20 this round, then we'll move to 15.

Roster:

sooooo - Just played
blid - UP
Asperge - On deck
pigswill
Kikinit
Cosmichail

And the save:

got it
Bye bye Brazil [party]

Quick set of turns.

Bring back the wandering warrior to capital to stop barbs
Next warrior is out, I fortify him in city

2710 BC : Hinduism FIADL

Went barracks after warrior

Worker went to mine grassland hill south of capital when finished with the ivory camp. When mine is ready, city is configured this way :

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnset1/01-CityConfig.jpg


This hurts production a bit but IMO growth is more important

Firt archer barb show hisself. Attacks the barb warrior (the explorer one, was promoted to woodsman I and fortified on a hill jungle). Archer had 11.8% odds

After barracks, I put some hammers in stonehenge waiting for IW. We can keep it going later or just let it convert to money. Stonhenge can be finished in 13 turns if city configured to stagnation. Since we don't have the right to settle any city, maybe we can delay attack a bit to let HC settle more cities. He already took the dyes spot. It's your call

Worker went mad on mines since there was nothing else to do

Another barbie archer going right to the fortified warrior (hopefully)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnset1/02-Capital.jpg


IW due in 3 turns. IMO, fishing->AH next is a no-brainer


2200 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/I'm_a_Jaguar_BC-2200.Civ4SavedGame)

Cool, I was hoping HC would settle towards us. By the time we've got stonehenge and a few jaguars, he should fill out our dotmap nicely. Cyrus' capital looks ripe for a galley assault too.

I'd prefer AH -> Wheel next. Don't think we'll have time to build a work-boat before the hapiness limit, by which time we won't need the clams.

sooooo - lamenting his country's penalties
blid - Just played, beat Brazil
Asperge - UP
pigswill - On deck
Kikinit
Cosmichail

just a lurkers comment but i dont think that Stonehenge will be especially usefull for you here, by the time you start taking out the majority of cities then Stonehenge will be getting closer to being obsolete so its only value will be GP points.

Also may be worth putting a cottage/farm down on them (sugers is it?)

I have a moral objection to building obelisks. We aren't creative and we have no religion. Plus we need to build something to allow the AIs to settle towards us.

Well then build a couple of scouting warriors/scouts, i find stonehenge a waste of early hammers-or get another worker out, your going to need a couple to be connecting your cities which are far away.

Also putting a camp on the second ivory is maybe not such a good thing-cottage one of them-you get much more coins. Your also not going to want to be trading the second source for a few hundred years thanks to elephants.

EDIT: I didn't realise there was a 2nd page already :blush: . I blame it on the timezones ;)

BCLG100. We haven't got agriculture or pottery yet so can't do much else.

Along those lines, I think our next tech should be something that will let our worker do something. Animal husbandry will give us the pigs and allow us to whip a bit. To get to pottery, we'll need to do the wheel and either agriculure or fishing. Fishing might be better so we can get the clams. I would go for AH -> Wheel as sooooo has suggested.

1. move worker to pigshill, to mine it temporarely,

2. warrior defeats barbarcher,

7. warrior defeats barbarcher,

8. meet our mr nice guy Tokugawa,

9. meet Qin,
with their archers around fel much safer,

13. barbwarrior enters our borders, hold back my own,

14. warrior defeats barbwarrior,

16.http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Civ4Stonehenge.JPG

19. prototype jaquar is out,warrior again on scouting mission.

20. pigshill almost ready

Animal husbandry will give us the pigs and allow us to whip a bit.

Whipping in our capital ? Unless you want to use the whipping-bug and get 60 h for one cit., i found this not a good idea.

Lurker:
@Asperge: care to share your knowledge why whipping the capital is not a good idea? I keep reading this every now and then, and IIRC, Sullla or Sirian mentioned something like that before, but I don't seems to understand why.

Nice speed guys. pigswill is up to build us some Jaguars! (20 turns)

sooooo
blid
Asperge - Just PLayed
pigswill - UP
Kikinit- On Deck
Cosmichail

@Greyfox: i think a lot of people don't see the backgrounds of whipping. It gives who never 30 hammers, always less, e.g. when your city makes 10 hammers and you whip, then profit of the whip is 30-10=20 hammers. Cost is one citizen, often a citizen working a hill-tile, that means in 10 turns 30 or 40 hammers less...Capitals have usually very good tiles, giving up one of them cost you most of times more then the benefits of whipping.

I can't spot the whipping bug timespans and feel happy with it.
So do we take the writing path once The wheel is finished ?
IMO : fishing->pottery->writing is the way to go

One more thing, we don't need workers. We have only one city. Once we start attacking, we may be able to slave some. Capital can produce them quickly anyway

Lurker
@Asperge: So it has nothing to do with capitals then. There is nothing specific about capital that makes them more ill-suited to any other non-capital cities. I just want to verify whether the statement should be "Thou shall not whip capital" or "Thou shall not whip cities with good production".

And here is my obligatory apology for hijacking: sorry for the OOT posts ... nice game you guys are having. ;)

I can't spot the whipping bug timespans

i'm sorry but what do you mean with this word?

Grey, I'm with you. I've heard a lot of people say not to whip the capital but I would have thought that there are certain times it's warranted depending on how much production you will loose by not having the citizens working.

Asperge. You get 10 turns of unhappiness. So not working a 3H cell (with no modifiers) will get you to break even. Not sure how you work out 30-10. You get 30 from the whip plus the production from that turn.

@Asperge : I meant I don't know when Whipping will exploit the bug. I know there are articles talking about it, but I just don't bother

I too can't understand why you calculate whip income by substracting 10 hammers ...

Any opinions about reserach path ?

Either:

Fishing -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet as Blid sugested.

The other option is:

Writing -> Alphabet then trade alphabet to everyone for the techs we need.

I'm undecided.

Lurker:
I'm going to lurk on this one because I've never been able to achieve anything remotely resembling a conquest or domination victory. Maybe I'll learn a thing or two. :)

sooooooo

Let's get that fishing to get those clams online for growth. I like the first choice fishing --->pottery->writing->alphabet. We have a first Jag prototype and he get's to practice on the barbs. So who do we attack first???

Holy asteriks, now becomes clear i'm a scatterbrain. From cv3 on i thought you only get 30 hammers (shields), and not the one you produce that very turn.....This makes slavery a lot more attractive, but you still need a granary and a workboat for it with this city to make it a little bit profitable.

Agree with first attacking Cyrus

Hrm, to attack Cyrus we'll need galleys. I was thinking we'd attack HC first.

Had a look at the last save. We are at our happiness limit so getting that ivory/gems hooked up would be good, after the wheel. (although ivory might be hooked up with the river) We might have to use the good ole whip. Getting fish is nice for science and extra whipping. (need a workboat though so how many turns would that take)

I agree to go against HC first since having to build galleys will slow us down. At the rate we are building Jags should have an army big enough to do the job soon. 5-6 Jags to start and keep building them.

HC first methinks. Let him settle another one, if only he will settle on the site north of rice : BFC = rice, iron, marble, dyes and gems :eek:

Anyway, if HC settles one city south then it is big time to attack and there is no time for workboat. If he settles north, maybe we should wait a bit and care about clam. Liz will make competition with HC north

Hooking up pigs will get us health; ivory will give us one happy. At the moment all we can whip is jags which we can build easily enough. I don't think we should dismiss whipping capital in principle, but we should wait to have something worth whipping. What about going pottery, writing route and building a library and some cottages? I'm tempted to build jags till we reach our freebie limit and check out targets then.
Treat this as a got it though won't play till tomorrow and I'll check out thread before starting.

Bit more exploring, few more jags, no more strategic clarity.
Quick run-through (several turns will be missed due to
complete non-events)
1600 start of set.zzz
1540 Build jaguar,start jaguar.
1450 Discover wheel. start fishing,
1420. HC founds Machu Pichu in nw lake, nice resources.Long walk.
1390. Meet Romans, decline OB. Build jaguar, start jaguar.
1300. Connect pigs.
1270.Discover fishing, start pottery. Build jaguar, start workboat.
1240. Judaism FIDL. Open Borders with HC.
1210. Locate roman border.
1180. Meet Hatty.
1150. Build workboat. Start jaguar. Connect ivory.
1090. Locate english border, barb city to north.
1000, turnset ends. Few promotions. Barbarians starting to appear. Capital pop 6,fish connected, worker starting on gems (few turns away). Pottery almost done.

Just added a thumbnail of current civs and culture to give a bit more info on potential targets. Still can't work out proper screenshots.


Comments: due to variant restrictions if we want cities nearby we'll have to wait for HC to build them in his own time. It might be worth starting wars further away. Maybe take out the english. We're trailing on commerce, maybe start cottages on top of sugar, possibly one elephant coz we only need one ivory for ourselves, not something we want to trade

Not sure if it's the best strategie but i just like the idea of taking Cyrus first. His capital surely has good plots.We need Sailing, then one galley is enough to ferry our troops. But if Hyuana settles near us before we got the galley, then probably better take him first. Here's Persepolis imo

Kikinit is up. Probably for WAR!

sooooo
blid
Asperge
pigswill - Just Played
Kikinit - UP
Cosmichail - On Deck

So we have two strategies:

(a) Get sailing, build a galley, attack Cyrus' capital
(b) Get writing then alphabet, attack HC. Trade for sailing.

My vote is for plan (b). Asperge is in favour or (a). I would like input from the other players as this is an important decision.

In my experience, if a city has 2 archers, we need 3 jags. 3 archers need 4 jags. If there are axemen around we attack someone else. Don't forget to road towards our enemy. Look out for opportunities to steal workers before our forces are ready. Also, we can use the chop/whip to speed out those jags (or galley).

I'll get the save and have a look to give you my 'vote' when I get home from work tonight. To attack a capital, we'd need something like 6 jags? That would mean 3 galleys. That will take a while to get together. By that time we might well have been able do do more overland.

I would lean towards the land based attack unless we can build a galley every couple of turns. If we can build a fleet in less than 10 turns then maybe Cyrus's capital is the best shot. It will have low maintenance if the location is as suggested by Asperge. Our galleys will be able to get there and drop off our Jags in no time.

Will Cyrus open borders with us to allow us to do a bit of scouting?

To attack a capital, we'd need something like 6 jags? That would mean 3 galleys. That will take a while to get together.

With 1 galley we can ferry every turn 2 jaquars, put them first in forest tile for safety, this takes 3 turns. No need for 3 galleys.

Hmmm.. I guess you're right. They don't need to go over in one turn.

Having thought about this a bit more I'd vote for taking out HC despite my earlier comments. At some point someone will fill gaps even if its only barbarians. Its 1000bc, we've got some jags (tho will need stacking together) and we aint going to expand til we start warring. HC is more accessible,we can always look at option of moving capital at some point to reduce distance maintenance. Also we can handle quechas, I'm not sure how we'd handle immortals.

Ok. I've had a look at the save and think we should go writing -> alphabet and take out HC. We are almost ready to declare on HC.

I'll play my turns shortly. 20 of them right? Can I declare on HC?

Ok. I've had a look at the save and think we should go writing -> alphabet and take out HC. We are almost ready to declare on HC.

I'll play my turns shortly. 20 of them right? Can I declare on HC?

Go for it! Let's hope he's been building quechas.

(0)-1000BC - I look around our cities and spend a lot of time MM'ing :lol: Ok maybe not. We'll have some more cities soon though. Actually I do MM our capital a bit to get Pottery finished in 1. Only temporary MM.

I decide to open borders with JC so I can explore a bit more with our warrior. Cyrus doesn't have writing yet so we can't OB with him (yet).

(1)-985BC - 5th Most Powerful. Oh well. We'll make the most of that power anyway. Pottery came in and I went for writing.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0221.jpg

(5)-925BC - Jaguar every 3 turns with max hammers in the capital.

(8)-880BC - We met Washington and I open borders with him.

(9)-865BC - I dial up HC and he's got nothing of interest to give to us so I propose to chop off his head and put it on a stick.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0222.jpg

(10)-850BC - HC's got a CGII archer fortified in Tiwanaku which will hurt a little bit.
1st Jag loses at 62.8%.
2nd Jag wins at 70%.
3rd Jag wins at 95%. Tiwanaku is ours. 75g and I keep it of course.

(14)-790BC - I start a worker in Tenoch as it's too slow with only 1 worker. I've spent all my turns just building one mine and clearing one jungle on the gems. The gems still aren't connected up!! Another worker is needed to build roads to the new towns we are going to have.

(16)-760BC - Writing in, Alphabet is next. Qin immediately asks for OB and I accept so we can explore through his lands. We aren't trying to stop anyone form going through our lands as we don't have much.

HC had 3 archers and 1 quechua in his capital but he's moved 1 archer out. It's time to attack now. I've got 5 Jags ready to go.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0223.jpg

1st odds are only 25% but I attack anyway and we just lose.
2nd odds are better. 57% but we still loose and not as much damage as the first guy.
3rd Jag gets 50%... I have to take the chance now that I've gone this far and we win.
4th Jag gets 97% and wins. 5th gets 100% and wins. 102g from Cuzco and we keep it.

IBT: The archer that left Cuzco is on the next cell and attacks IBT. He's only got 23% odds but off course the RNG lets him win... frack. He's only got 0.1 health left!

Elizabeth also decided to ask for OB. I've OB'd with everyone else so it can't hurt.

(17)-745BC - I take Cuzco back and get 2g this time. But Cuzco has lost 2 pop points from being taken twice. It's now size 3 and will not come out of revolt for 4 turns. This time it will hold as I can move in a few more troops.

(20)-700BC - The workers are building a road to Tiwanaku through the iron. The borders will eventually pop to cover the iron. Guangzhou (Incan) is not too well protected but I don't have enough troops to take it yet. We need to keep on building up a bit of force. HC will not be able to threaten us for a while I don't think.

I realised that the gems were just connected up a turn or 2 ago and the capital is configured for maximum hammers. It can be set to grow now and then back to max hammers once it's reached the new pop limit.

Here's an overview of where we are at.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0225.jpg

Here's the save:

lurker's comment:
Good job!

:thumbsup: well done Kikinit. We can use that worker in Guanghzou, never seen such a unhealthy city as Tiwanaku, but it will become very strong once jungle is cleared.

As i look at Persepolis:drool: not one archer promoted! I'll be patience

:thumbsup: well done Kikinit. We can use that worker in Guanghzou, never seen such a unhealthy city as Tiwanaku, but it will become very strong once jungle is cleared.

As i look at Persepolis:drool: not one archer promoted! I'll be patience

I once had a city built early near jungle, and it was so unhealthy that she didnt grow from size 1! =P

Kikinit good job taking Cuzco. Consider this "I got it" and will play later tonight.

sooooo-on deck
blid
Asperge - wants Persopolis bad
pigswill - just played
Kikinit- Just played==put Jaguars to work
Cosmichail-UP==wants to do some more warring
__________________

Well done Kikinit.

Cosmichail is UP to keep battering the Incans. Don't make peace - there's no point until we get alphabet. If HC has one crappy city left then just leave it. If not wipe him out. Feel free to declare on someone else if you have nothing to do with our promoted Jaguars. Also try not to fog-bust :crazyeye:. We want the supposedly "raging" barbs to settle near us. Looks like we need some workers too.

Isn't Guanghzou normally a Chinese city? Has HC been warring before us?

Turn 1

Barb archer attacks and we win. Sign OB with Cyrus to scout him eventually. Cuzco comes out of revolt start barracks. Move Jag towards Ghangzhou.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0230.jpg

Turn 2

Jag takes out archer at Ghangzhou

Turn 3

Move warrior scout. Move Jag – barb axe threatening Cuzco.

Turn 4

Take Ghangzhou. Barb axe moves onto farm near Cuzco. Whip warrior in Cuzco just in case as only 1 jag defending. JC demands ivory decline.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0232.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0233.jpg

Turn 5

Barb axe attacks Cuzco and looses. (whew) Start road from Ghangzhou to Cuzco. Fortify Jag at Ghangzhou. Move Jags toward Machu Piccha which has horses.

Turn 6

Move Jag towards Machu Piccha.

Turn 7

HC wants PT decline. Jag converge on MP need 3 or 4 on a hill.

Turn 8

Workers start cottage at Tiwanaku. Barb archer threatening Cuzco.

Turn 9

Barb Archer attacks Jag and looses. Hatty wants OB oblige to scout. Teno builds Jag send to MP injured Jag protects worker. Move worker to start mine.

Turn 10

Start mine at Tiwanaku. MM Teno to grow to 7 as we have enough Jags.

Turn 11

HC has another city south of Tiwanaku near marble move Jag towards it.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0236.jpg

Turn 12

Hatty wants to trade corn for ivory decline. (we will have corn in BFC of Ghangzhou)
HC archer threatens worker at Tiwanaku, move him.
Jag attacks archer at MP and looses
Jag attacks Quechua at MP and wins
Jag attacks archer at MP and wins
We take Machu Piccha. Our Jag takes out archer at Tiwanaku.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0237.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0238.jpg

Turn 13

Move two Jags towards HC’s last city. Fortify/heal Jags at MP.

Turn 14

Start cottage move worker to Rice. Tiwanaku expands borders.

Turn 15

MP come out of revolt and start WB. Ok we have no argriculture go to start cottage.

Turn 16

Teno has one unhappy due to WW but we put an end to that soon. Two Jags near last city.

Turn 17

Jags at Olly something. Alphabet only 1 turn away.

Turn 18

Teno finish Jag start Library. Cuzco finishes warrior start Jag. Extort two techs from Huyana for PT. Mathematics/Agriculture. Get 4 techs from Qin for Alpha. Meditation/Sailing/Archery/Masonry
All the rest have nothing to trade. Start Drama for trade value.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0242.jpg

Turn 19

Science at 0% binary. 4 Jag’s at the last of HC cities declare war as soon as we can. Felt getting those techs was good before finishing him.

Turn 20

Worker heads for rice to farm and help Tiwanaku with health.


Have fun SOOOOOOO

Here is the save:

I've looked at the save but I won't play until tomorrow. Well done capturing those cities Cosmichail. We get a great prophet in 9 turns. If we can trade for poly and mono, he can found christianity for us. Theology is also good trade material. Unfortunately we got Masonry, which rules out taking Civil Service. No one will trade poly or mono yet however. There are going to be some disapointed civs out there if everyone is building the parthenon!

I think next tech should be currency. We need to be careful with our trading. Trade with the most backwards civs first, preferably those with few worst enemies.

It seems we need many more workers to chop all of that jungle. Some cottages would be nice too.

Persepolis looks very well defended right now, but that will be reduced when the settler leaves. Cyrus is way ahead in power. Elizabeth is as weak as HC, and only has one city. Must have had trouble with the barbs. I'll see if London or any of the nearby barb cities are worth taking. Other than that, it looks like infrastructure + finish off HC.

sooooo - UP
blid - On Deck
Asperge
pigswill
Kikinit
Cosmichail - Just Played

Lurker's Comment:
Very good warmongering guys! and this time the jags really paid off methinks.

Soooo, yes I traded for Masonry and I wish I hadn't. BTW Qin was the only one able to offer more than one tech. The rest had only one and I didn't see us getting the bang for the buck there. I think there is like 7 turns left on the PT and we can finish HC off. Also we can build galleys now and go after Persopolis which will make a nice edition to our fine empire. Watch Julius he is in a threatening mood. We should go for construction (trade/research) and get us some of those wonder elephants to accompany our Jags.

Isn't Guanghzou normally a Chinese city? Has HC been warring before us?

It has cause of culture flipped to the inca's, i've seen a revolt some time ago.

JC demands ivory decline.

Better give in next time imo, and cancel after 10 (15) turns. JC is a nasty fellow.

Nice propgress here. Good job Kikinit and cosmichail :goodjob:
IMORTANT : close borders with any civ sending galleys south, especially Cyrus. Barbs and Liz would settle there eventually and Liz would be so backward she won't be any threat to us. Also, other civs will start to fight now that land is scarce and that serves us good.
IMO, the good targets are JC and Qin. Qin as he is financial, close and already number one in land. JC as he is close too, and there are good odds he will declare before we do. We refused him tribute and he is kinda touchy.
Also, like sooooo said, check what are the OBs we need to keep and those that we must drop. We need to choose a side, we can't befriend everybody

sooo: I'm finding that I'm kind of over-committed civ-wise at the moment and as this is the game I'm least involved in I'd like to pull out. Hope this doesn't complicate things for you all. No doubt I'll lurk and make the occasional admiring comment.

JC as he is close too, and there are good odds he will declare before we do. We refused him tribute and he is kinda touchy.

don't see a "you refused to help us" looking at Caesar:confused: I think he's to far away from us and we don't have the means to fight his preatorians.Be nice to him for a while i suggest.
Let Huayna and Elizabeth make a few city's more before declaring on them. In meantime we can do some city-building. But i doubt sooooo can hold his will to fight....
Hopefully Cyrus will direct his forces to Tokugawa soon...

But i doubt sooooo can hold his will to fight....

:) I'm fine with not fighting when there's no need to fight. But I don't think there's much chance of HC settling another city any time soon. His final city is close to our capital and would make a nice addition to our empire so I think I'm going to take it.

Personally I would have agreed to give JC the ivory. It's not like he'll get construction and build many elephants in 15 turns.

I think my turns will mainly be scouting, trading, cottaging and chopping jungle.

@Pigswill: OK, happy lurking ;)

We still can give him the ivory Sooooo but once he gets construction I would cancel it. We don't need him running around with Praets/elephants. That would be too much for us to deal with. Also that last city of HC has marble so maybe we can put that to use. (I have found trying to please him doesn't help all the time he will attack out of the blue sometimes)

I agree that we should cancel Cyrus's OB if we see any galleys coming our way.

Sorry to hear that Pigswill......Maybe Spritesoda is interested....but we still will have five which I think is plenty.

IHT: Move jags out of cities to scout. Set research to currency. Our economy is pretty bad.

(1) 385 BC - Give sailing to Washington for Priesthood.

(3) 355 BC - Cyrus converts to buddhism. Washington is the other buddhist. Qin, Hatty and Toku are Jewish.

(4) 340 BC - Judaism spreads to our capital. Hmm.

(5) 325 BC - Tiwanaku: Barracks to Granary. JC converts to Judaism. I decide to align ourselves with the Jewish alliance and convert too.

(7) 295 BC - Teno from library to worker. Cuzo from archer to granary.

(8) 280 BC - Qin wants us to cancel deals with Washington. He's a dirty Buddhist, so I agree.

(9) 265 BC - Declare on HC. Get another -1 from the warmongers due to warmongerrespect.

(10) 250 BC - Guanghzou from barracks to granary. Whip a work boat in MP and a granary in Cuzco. Moses is born, I fortify him. I find York. Where is London?

(11) 235 BC - Cuzco from granary to archer. MP from workboat to granary. Attack ollantaytambo, capture it with the loss of one jaguar. Capture worker.

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/9430/ollantay9xq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

(12) 220 BC - Teno from worker to worker. Start cottage on sugar. Aha, London is chinese.

(13) 205 BC - Trade for Poly from Hatty for Alphabet.

(14) 190 BC - Ollantay out of revolt, start work boat. We have already hit the WFYHBTA limit with Qin.

(15) 175 BC - Cuzco from archer to Jag. We have a warrior on a GO-TO order.

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5682/empire175bc4jl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

It is very tempting to attack Qin soon. London (chinese) is only defended by a chariot and we have 3 jags in the area. Shanghai (with gold) is defended by a single archer. We don't have enough troops to cause much damage, but those two cities and Huangzhou are tempting targets. Meanwhile our economy is poor still. Currency is still due in 1 billion turns (40% research). Need to cottage our capital in anticipation of beureacracy. Can't trade for mono yet so we can't found christianity. Moses is still in Teno. After the worker is done (2 turns) we should hire 2 scientists in the capital at the expense of production to generate a GS (academy).

We'll stick to a 5-man rooster. Blid is UP!

sooooo - Just Played
blid - UP
Asperge - On Deck
Kikinit
Cosmichail

Lurker comment: you might want to keep OB for Cyrus to build cities for you coz you can't build any yourself. Wiped out HC before 1AD, good going.

Had a look at the save in I agree the best city to attack next would be Shanghai. It has only one archer in it, and floodplains and gold. Would be great commerce city. Huangzhou is on a hill and would take more jags to take. But speaking of attacking right now is premature since we have only like 4-5 Jags. That's why I was building barracks for our next soldiers to attack. Now we are practically defenseless, and low in power position so prone to being attacked if we are not careful. Who cares about economy we can extort/pillage from newly conquered cities. We will loose the window at which are Jags will be effective if we don't strike out to maximize our size. A library in Teno would have helped but Teno is the only city that can build Jags fast, so leaving that until now makes no sense to me. We have enough workers but we need more??

Are we warring or building?? I see granaries everywhere which is good considering we are in jungle but could have held off for some Jags to start another campaign. It won't be long we are up against axes/swords which Jags in the jungle can still be effective but will be a lot harder.

Ok we are on raging barbs but have no archers to defend except MP. Julius is near by too and we have no counter offensive to speak of. We should be building Jags, Jags and more Jags.

I think also trading poly for alphabet to Hatty was a bad deal considering she is near the top and now has the ability to get techs from other AI's now. We could have waited until she had more techs to offer and get bang for our buck. Having Judaism is good thing to keep JC off our back for a bit but he is unpredictable. I would rather be prepared and not worry about economy right now. We have horses now too and should consider getting those hooked up to deal with barbs in the event one shows up near one of our poorly defended cities.

Are we warring or building?

I thought we were building.

I am aware that the Jag is becoming less and less useful, but we simply cannot afford many more cities. We have just captured 5 in a very short space of time. I simply don't think we can manage to keep our economy going on plunder from enemy cities. Until we have Currency and CoL then we have to hold off. Although as I said, London and Shanghai make tempting targets, and possibly we could hold them until Qin will deal for peace. That would be great.

But speaking of attacking right now is premature since we have only like 4-5 Jags.

We have 9 jags.

The granaries were built for whippability. And I would disagree we have too many workers. There are so many improvements we need to build. For example, a horse pasture.

I know it's exciting to build jags and capture loads of cities, but there are 10 civs in this game and it's going to be a long one. If we don't keep up on tech we have no chance. That's why I continued the library build (that you started) and want to use it to get an academy.

Read Blid-01 for an example of a game where we built millions of units but never got an academy, a shrine or many cottages.

I think JC is less of a threat because we don't share a border with him, are powerful (some guy said we were the 2nd most powerful) and share Judaism. I think JC is not unpredicable at all. If he's much more powerful than you, shares a border and is not friendly, he will attack. If not, he won't. He's not a turncoat like Louis or Alex.

Got it. Ready for some builder turns or are you considering seriously to take those chinese cities ? Haven't had my share of mongering yet :drool:

No AI war yet ? This is disappointing. Maybe there was a war between China and England ? I can't see how a capital can culture flip this early

We have 9 jags.

I didn't see the three wandering by London. So our forces are kind of spread out and costing us too being off our soil. I didn't see that the library was built but isn't doing much good but down the road perhaps. And before I started you talked about going to war on the next civ. Feel free to declare on someone else if you have nothing to do with our promoted Jaguars.So it was my impression we were going to continue with some warring whilst we still had the edge. We are tech wise in good shape and our power is #2. The other civs seems kind of weak which is surprising at monarch. On VQ06b we are playing on Emporer and fought our way to a decent size and researched techs that have good trade value and kept up that way.

JC has just settled near iron so he can't be too far off from Praets but might not have IW yet. I don't trust him no matter what. Did you see that stack in Cyrus's capitol now too. I find with this game once you go into builder mode (and I am both at heart warmonger/builder) you tend to get stuck there and wait for the next best thing. Hatty has Mono btw but won't trade and JC has calender and won't trade. As far as I can see Qin has no serious army and is doing what he usually does tech racing/building.

I think some infrastructure is in order but we should be ready to go after him soon especially Shanghai that would be a huge benefit to us for commerce.

I don't think at the beginning (personally) commerce matters as much as getting to a decent size does. We were down to 10% in our emporer game and still (through some ingenius trading) kept up. I didn't read Blid-01, no interest as I didn't really care for the variant. Interesting game but it doesn't affirm any precedence to me or understand the point. There are players that will go to 0% science to get some size in the beginning so to each his own playing style.

As to whipability granaries are great but with so much jungle it won't help much until we clear those jungles. So more workers for that is great but again Shanghai is ready to go commerce and all (gold/floodplains).

I say with 9 jags we get some archers for defense and go after Shanghai. That's what I would do and we would have an instant commerce city. Holding off for currency yes but waiting for COL I think is too far off. (the more I think about it 1 archer and we have troops nearby. Well if it was my turn we would be attacking to get just that city)

EDIT: Re: Blid-01 You got my curiousity Soooo and that was a tough variant. I understand what point you are trying to make. Warmongering isn't the only way and we need to build a good science center which I am all for. (academy) We haven't got a lot of commerce at Teno (sugar/gems too far away/Ivory/and the rest of grass should be cottages). Wouldn't that Shanghai be sweet for a science center/academy. Too bad about that Blid-01 you guys put a lot of hard work into that.

You guys are off to a roaring start!

I just noticed this thread - you want that I pick up pigswell's spot?

I say with 9 jags we get some archers for defense and go after Shanghai. That's what I would do and we would have an instant commerce city. Holding off for currency yes but waiting for COL I think is too far off.

I agree. I wasn't saying we were going into builder mode, just having a short interlude of builder turns while we build some granaries and workers. I also like to expand first, build later. I think we agree more than we disagree, we just don't realise it :)


I just noticed this thread - you want that I pick up pigswell's spot?

Sure Mike, we could use your skillz.

New roster:

sooooo - Just Played
blid - UP
Asperge - On Deck
mike p
Kikinit
Cosmichail

Also don't understand sooooo's wartactics, characterized by spreading out all the forces. I prefer one big army.

Why given in to Qin's demand when thinking about attacking him???

Let Teno make units. Hopefully the strategie of getting theologie works soon, then Teno can make xp6-units. Prefer library and scientist in Ollantaytamo and/or Tiwanaku.

Cyrus behaviour is weird. Only 3 city's, a settler in capital and lots of units but no galley ever seen to settle in our land. Don't understand why not keeping open borders with him.

So our forces are kind of spread out and costing us too being off our soil.

Also don't understand sooooo's wartactics, characterized by spreading out all the forces. I prefer one big army.

I don't get it. I was scouting, not warring. Surely it's good to spread out scouting jags, right? I wanted to know about elizabeths's lands. If we came across a barb city, the 3 jags would have been enough to take it. Of course our forces are off our soil. No point scouting our own lands.

Now it looks like Qin is our next target, but it didn't before my turnset. The scouting identified that. And the tribute was given before I discovered Shanghai and London.

Of course it's better to attack as one big army. But in my turnset we needed 4 jags to take a city in the south, 3 more to scout the north and the rest to garisson cities before we could build some archers. Sure I didn't build any more jags, but I built 2 more archers which are better than fresh jags if they allow a promoted jag to leave city-garisson duty.

Maybe there was a war between China and England ? I can't see how a capital can culture flip this early

It's crazy, but London was taken by barbarians! Later Qin took it over (look for this in previous save).
Also a capital can't flip ever as far as i know.

sooooo, you're right, you were scouting, i still have to get use to playing with other people:) ( but from our previous game i remembered you did spread out your forces a bit, probably to pillage, and my thinking then was you lost units cause of that).

A capital can flip like any other city. But you generally only see it when the original capital was taken and the new capital is already under cultural pressure.

Though I did once flip Timbuktu. He was on the neck of a very small penisula and I had Gandhi, 3 hills, and lots of crabs. Our BFC were touching, I think. I just kept building wonders until I took his capital. Then the Greeks came and wiped my pathetic two cities out.

Soooooo

No need to defend your actions. You are team leader and I only meant to point out it does cost to have soldiers off our home soil. I was confused but now agree some infrastructure is good for now. I would love to get Shanghai I think it would help us. Sorry to hamper on that. Scouting is necessary to get tactical info and I totally support that. (PS I was just a teeny weeny miffed that you changed everything I did that's all, but it's forgotton now)

Sometimes a good active debate brings team mates closer and understand each others tactics better. I personally tend to keep forces together and travelling in pairs so as not to loose them. Armies with different kinds of troops are much more effective than just one kind. Example if HArcher attack Jag and no sword in stack Jag will loose. (of course no one has Horse archer yet.)

The civs are tactically weak so at some point we should take advantage of that.

Overall we have done very well our empire is large and we are technologically doing good. We went from last position to third so it won't be long before we get to first. I always like to go after the strongest first if he is nearby and Qin is certainly a good candidate. (then maybe we can extort some techs out of him along the way)

Yosh nice debate going here. I like that. Well, I hope I won't screw my turnset with all these contradictory positions :crazyeye:

Concerning borders with Cyrus, I want that fu**ing bi*ch to decalre on Toku. What the hell is he thinking keeping a million immortals inside capital. I am sure Toku will end up declaring on us this way.
OTOH, I prefer to see more Liz cities in the east. She will be lagging in techs and ripe to take. Cyrus may be harder to burn

Concerning stopping relations with Roosevelt, methinks this is good decision. It's not like we gave Qin a tech, money or something. Consider it just taking a side, the jewish one.

Yosh nice debate going here. I like that. Well, I hope I won't screw my turnset with all these contradictory positions

Me laughs.......

Is it war?? or is it building??? D'OH and D'OH........Could you bribe Cyrus into warring with Toku. He isn't that big either and just irritating us with his silly archers everywhere. Also stopping trading with (I thought it was Washington) for sake of keeping JC on our good side is fine with me. Being Jewish is good thing is this neighbourhood. Oye

I haven't actually opened a save yet, so this is all fairly speculative. But it sounds to me like Cyrus isn't that large, is close to us so our upkeep costs won't be as high taking him over, and has huge stacks of Immortals. His land is also defensible once we take it because it is either an island or a penisula.

If most of his defenders are Immortals in a city, they are basically free experience points for our CR Jags. They get no defensive bonus. He should be wiped out before he gets Feudalism or metals if we get a break from our other wars.

Sorry for holding this for so long. Was a bit busy and semifinals didn't help either

Everything seems fine. I just veto cottage on sugar. A farm, I would have let it be but a cottage, so close to calendar ? better build a cottage that we would keep. And I understand why sooooo was talking about building :crazyeye: we have only +15 income at 0% slider


Pyramids are done IFAIL

Capital starts a monastery when worker is done. We need to help spread the word

Trade with Hatty, as she is jewish

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet2/01-TradeWithHatty.jpg


JC turned buddhist, he is in a bad mood now

A warrior got trapped in american culture so I killed him

Capital finishes monastery and starts a missionary. This is the only city that manages to build anything in reasonable time. Quite frustrating

Some a**hole found COL IAFAL this turn. In 55 BC, finally there is some news on the tech side. I know, this is not fair, but who said that trading with AI is fair anyway

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet2/02-Trade1.jpg


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet2/03-Trade2.jpg


This kills culture of one city before its expansion (the fish one, so I'll send a missionary there). But with all the resources we have, there is no point in delayin calendar

Hatty asked me to sign my own death sentence. No thank you

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet2/05-HattyCaprice.jpg


This guy was exploring with those units. Don't know if he wants a barb city or just needs to check our military situation

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet2/04-JCExploring.jpg


Unfortunaltely, the most interesting one, mono, is not tradable. We don't have trade material with Hatty. And what I feared happened :cry:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet2/06-Christianity.jpg


I guess Qin gave us another reason to choose him. He is running away with techs BTW. The prophet is getting annoyed and would gladly go collect some faithful christians money ...

Currency is still 8 turns away and Qin already got it. He has too many cities with metal, so if we attack we need to be well prepared and go for a kill or at least a serious crippling

Expenses are still progressing faster than income but with the calendar resources and currency we will revert situation. The city with dyes already has 2 cottages, it should be our super science city. But I started with the banana to get the max growth. We have a very nice happiness cap here

Sorry, I played one turn too much : 165 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/I'm_a_Jaguar_AD-0065.Civ4SavedGame)

Looks good. Still can't see pictures, hope don't miss crucial info. If this was a sologame with no restrictions i probably would stop playing considering it as won...

I'll ask Qin politely to finance our currency research with his 110 gold, sure he will help us to get rid of his monopoly on it ;)

One important question before i play: wich city gets our Heroic Epic ? My vote goes to our capital cause it has most food.

I don't think you'll have the opportunity to start heroic epic in your turnset but yes capital seems like a good candidate. From you statement, I guess you'll be going for literature after currency ? That is good choice IMO


If this was a sologame with no restrictions i probably would stop playing considering it as won...


I deduce you are the awful starts specialist :lol:

One last thing, I just realized that there are many potential trades with Toku and he is jewish so we have cautious relations. IMO, if he asks for a reasonable freebie give him. He is not reliable for 2 cents as long term partner but short term for tech trades is good. Qin is our friend (temporarily) but we already crossed the WFYABTA line

I deduce you are the awful starts specialist :lol:



often i get bored half-way the game, and begin with another game. SG forces me (and makes it easier) to go till the end, that's a reason for me to play sg.:)

If this was a sologame with no restrictions i probably would stop playing considering it as won...

This made me :lol:! Asperge is UP.

sooooo
blid - Just Played
Asperge - UP
mike p - On Deck
Kikinit
Cosmichail

0 Qin is pleased and gives us 110 gold (now i realize sooooo's decision to favour Qin in favour of Washington was not so bad allthough at the end of my turnset Washington still don't want to speak with us)
Machu Picchu: whip granary (first of 3 whips in this city during my turnset).

1 MP - lighthouse,
Qin completes Colossus in Being.

2 Currency > Literature
Elizabeth helps us with 50 gold.
Tenochtitlan : workboat

3-6:sleep:

7Finally something happens at the Persian borders:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Civ4Persiansailsmen.JPG

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h34/aspergeimage/Civ4Persiansailsmen.jpg

Angxiously hidden behind big elephants Cyrus men set sail kolonizing new world
(the grand-grand-grand-grand children of the original settler are on board)
Remember Blid something saying about closing our borders with Cyrus, but don't understand why so let them sail through our land.

Machu Picchu : whip lighthouse > library

8-9 :sleep:

10 Tiwanaku : whip library > Great Library,
We've possession of marble

11 Literature > construction (catapults),
can't get construction from Hatshy despite of having currency & literature, sure she's researching currency now. Don't want Mono & 230 gold for literature, to protect building of Great Library.

13 Tenochtitlan : Heroic Epic (who said not in my turnset?:) )
Machu Picchu: whip library > National Epic (can be changed, maybe market is better, gives possibility of two more specialist, this city can handle that and grow must be stopped at some point cause it has been whipped already 3 times)).

14 Machu Picchu : my plan with this city: put first 4 citizens on the rich plots, then fifth and sixth can become scientists > academie

Nice progress. MP is the right choice for Nat. Epic + GS production. I think we should delay heroic epic in Teno to build the great library (16 turns) there instead. Unless I'm missing something it will take too long to build or whip in its current location. Construction looks good as next tech. With elephants and cats we should be able to take on whoever we like. After that I'd like to get CoL because it has high trade value and allows courthouses. Our economy is starting to roll again now we have some calendar resources hooked up.

sooooo
blid
Asperge - Just Played
mike p - UP
Kikinit - On deck
Cosmichail

I agree with sooooo that we should build the Great Library as the benefits are pretty good. COL is also a good choice for the trade value, but hasn't it been discovered according to Blid's report. It's still good for the courthouses too.

Blid that trade with JC makes me nervous sure it makes him like us more but three techs including alphabet. Oh well c'est le vie. Of course the first thing he does is threaten everybody to get a tech. If this was on emporer I might understand. I don't think our situation was that desperate. I think that will come back at us later in the game but I could be wrong. JC is such a peace loving guy so having him advanced poses no threat. (cough, cough)

At least he won't extort anything from us since we sold the farm to get the eggs. LOL....:lol:

Qin does tend to run away with the techs. Asperge nice job getting the moola from him we needed it bad. Too bad he is going to get attacked one of these days. (good pink floyd tune)

For the GL (if we do) we should think about chopping/whipping for that. Do we have mathematics? I think so have to look at the save. Quite often on Monarch the AI will beat you if you don't move fast. Having that will make a big difference in science and I generally put the national epic there but MP is good too. Hiring a scientist there too would get us a scientist fast for Philosophy if it's in the tech line.

We need to discuss an overall strategy. Will we be building for a while and considering a war plan at some point. Soooo since you are team leader I suggest you put forward a long term plan so we know what we are aiming for.

We should watch Washington too he tends to run away with techs eventually as in every I game I play against him he always builds a ton of cottages. It never hurts to try and get a friend to gift us a tech/moola so keep talking to those friendly civs.

Well, my "grand plan" is to build a whole bunch of catapults and elephants and go crush everyone. Then whip courthouses in our new cities. Once we have a large army we won't have to worry (much) about JC because he likes to pick on weaklings. I think we can clean up Lizzy, Cyrus and Toku whenever we like, so I propose a war against Qin first. Do others agree? So 10-12 turns for constuction then Mike and Kikinit can build us an army and begin the onslaught. Keep building jags and axes before we get construction.

GL is interesting. If we build it, we'll have no problems in the tech race. But if we build heroic epic and jags in the capital instead, we'll get Qin's lands quicker and again have no problems in the tech race. Whatever we do I think we'll be fine. I'll leave it to Mike to decide.

I think blid's trade for calendar was good. We needed that tech and the ones we gave away were known by others.

It's a trade I would never make but that's just me. Plus it does cancel the effects of obelisks. But again we do have a lot of calender resources so hey what's done is done.

I think we should delay heroic epic in Teno to build the great library (16 turns) there instead. Unless I'm missing something it will take too long to build or whip in its current location.

I want to insist on building Heroic Epic and Great Library in the current places.
the finishing of the Heroic epic in our capital will be equal with research of construction > catapults and elephants
Tiwanaku has enough hills and 3 workers within its borders so it can quickly get the buildspeed it needs ( and no other civ has literature yet.)
(and we have marble and most other civ's not)

EDIT: Only Qin is really a danger for the Great Library, cause he's the only one who is industrious, and the only one with marble, but he has no literature yet, and cause we will soon conquer his empire it doesn't matter if he's quicker....
Also when he's gonna build it, he won't building military..

I concur we need lots of warriors and the capitol has proven to be the most effective in doing that. So I am with Asperge "heroic epic" in capitol. GL in Tiwanaku (PS I personally think the Nat. Epic should be whereever GL is).

For some reason the AI doesn't seem to research Lit to quick so we should act soon. GL is a big help in science and Tiwanaku is where the dyes are right??? So the coin will up the research level too.

Looked at the save only a couple of things I noticed. When MP grows it should work the horses as Nat. Epic at 158 turns is lengthy.

GL in Tiwanaku will take 61 turns which means we might loose out on it. We need some mines there. I think the city is a good choice since it will have good science but that's if we can build it fast enough.

Cuzco/Guangzhou are both good for warrior production and could hold the Heroic Epic since capitol can build jag in 4 turns. It's just that eventually you will need the capitol for another national wonder at some point and this reduces it to one. But that's just a thought.

Qin cities Shanghai/Nanjing are very poorly defended. It wouldn't take much to take them and then extort for some techs. It will hurt our relationship but who cares.......

Asperge I notice you insist on these locations but aren't we working as a team??? Soooo makes a good point about he GL. It will take too long in it's current location unless we get some mines pronto.

good job asperge. Sure I need to put a poster in my face saying : remember to beg
Now to answer your question concering Cyrus, I wanted him to declare on Toku. He was the most powerful AI by far and was boxed in. Once AI can't expand peacefully, they start war. Also, I wanted Liz to catch the land as she will be easy prey later on. Now that southern part is secured, this is no more a big concern, but I really would love a persian/japanese war. This will keep Toku busy and he won't think about attacking us

@cosmichail : I was a bit concerned about obsoleting henge when I traded, but as I mentioned, only one city lacked a border expansion and I had a missionary to deal with that. Now concering JC getting ahead in techs, I think when you don't have monopoly, you should get the most out of your tech before it is too late (unless you are aiming for a wonder of course). JC would have got alphabet from other AI anyway, and the one left aside would be us.
Also, we were netting +15 gold at 0% slider when I started my turnset, so a single dye resource is +33% in income.

Concering the GL place debate, I would say "when you chase two rabbits, you will loose them both". I concur with sooooo in building GL in capital. First, this is less risky. Second, if you work the mines in Tiwanaku, you will not be working dyes and that is a big waste IMO.

Tech wise, I would have started research on drama or music. Construction will be tradable eventually. Three cities already have it. I would also try to trade for mono to speed up GL in capital. Hatty would give it with some money for currency but we may wait a little bit to make a double trade with currency in the same turn

National epic in Macchu picchu is a nice choice. Also, this city can help with the war by whipping some units while first great scientists would be popped from GL

Cosmichail, I agree with you that attacking Qin right now before he gets LBs is tempting. But I fear that he will not negotiate after we take 2 cities. Also, if we attack, Huangzhou should be prioritized as it is christian holy city

.
Asperge I notice you insist on these locations but aren't we working as a team???

insist is maybe (probably) the wrong word (i'm not english), i only wanted to emphasis my arguments for GL in Tiwanaku, we can speed up that production quickly with the workers and the hills around Tiwanaku. If team decides something else, that's o.k.

Concering the GL place debate, I would say "when you chase two rabbits, you will loose them both".

Two rabbits? We only chase one > GL that we can lose, and if we lose it we lose it to Qin (industrious, marble), but i thought our first goal to conquer is Qin so we can't lose it...

I must admit i like to gamble a bit but when majority says GL in capital = ok for me

National epic in Macchu picchu is a nice choice. Also, this city can help with the war by whipping some units while first great scientists would be popped from GL.

Don't like this one. Machu Picchu should get a market and later a grocery then it can have 6 specialists, imo much better than whipping for units.It has already been whipped 3times in my turnset, and i want reserve further whipping for market, grocer, national epic etc

Don't like this one. Machu Picchu should get a market and later a grocery then it can have 6 specialists, imo much better than whipping for units.It has already been whipped 3times in my turnset, and i want reserve further whipping for market, grocer, national epic etc

Excellent point and those specialist can really pay off.

Huangzhou should be prioritized as it is christian holy city

I missed that and I agree it's more important for shrine.

Asperge, I understand no problem about the English. You are Scandinavian?
My background is Dutch and born in Canada. The capitol is not that great science wise/coin wise and Tiwanaku would be better. Maybe with some farms it could work some dyes/mines respectively. I am not disagreeing with your choice Asperge it just I would like to get it and who knows where Qin will build it, it might be some time before we take the city with it but we could focus on it should it happen by looking in wonder screen to see who built it, if that happens.

@Cosmichail, i have same background as you:)

To make thing clear: imo heroic epic is most important building of the game and must be build as soon as possible in the city that can generate most hammers, so i chose our capital.

I don't really mind if we miss GL, i think it's more important to attack Qin and make his empire ours ( with Colossus and maybe GL in Beying). That's why i didn't build it in our capital. I researched literature for heroic epic, not for GL.

If we miss it, we have soon 2 scientists in Machu Picchu.

@blid: i was not sure we could get obstruction by trade, and with this i wouldn't gamble cause at this point this tech is the most important one, so i set research on obstruction. If team decides to build GL in capital > postponing heroic epic > obstruction can wait.

Aahhhh Asperge when I look at the skying are you into sky diving or skiing??
I thought maybe it was a city in Norway but you probably mean skiing.

I kan ook Nederlands spreken als ik heb in Nederland gewoond.

Yes let us go to battle soon my favorite past time.

This is probably a good turn set for me to start on. I was itching to declare war somewhere, but this probably isn't the time, and no one really pissed me off, besides Cyrus the horse thief.

Looks like Liz is having some sort of identity crisis:

131997

Anyway, nothing much happened. I built a couple of workers, some mines, roads, and plantations.

Finally in 380 AD, we finish the Herioc Epic in our capital. I start up a galley to scout out Persia.

395 AD Our production in our capital takes a grevious blow:

131998

On the plus side, we have gold!

410 AD Someone buids the Hanging Gardens far away.

425 AD Qin builds the Sistine Chapel in Beijing.

455 AD Construction in on schedule. Someone out there has Code of Laws already so I start on Music to try to snag the GA.

470 AD I try to micromanage MP and realize that the horses ain't ours no more. Thieving Persians have stolen them from right under our noses. So I start a cottage on the single plains tile and start working it, thereby doubling our hammer output there.

500 AD Qin builds the Parthenon. Is he trying for a cultural victory or something?

Since our empire is small, I'll give a city by city report here:

In our capital, I've started a marketplace. We need the income, even if it means the Heroic Epic is idled briefly. (One of the downsides of HE in the capital is that the capital is very seldom a pure production city.) I also finished a cottage on the sugar/river tile. The plantation gives +1 food for now, but with the cottage we still have 3 food and commerce will only go up from here. There's other sugar already hooked up for happy. (Edited to add: Don't be like me and forget to hook up the gold!)

Macchu Picchu should finish the National Epic sometime during my next turnset. We might want to whip out a temple and hire a priest for an extra hammer. There is also some forest just outside our borders that should be chopped to hurry along the Epic.

In Guangzhou we've nearly completed a library and our third spice farm. So it will be a decent commerce city, with enough food to start working some mines along the river to the west (which haven't been built yet.) Not sure if we need a market there next or more units.

Cuzco is 3 turns away from building our first elephant. Keep pumping out units here.

Tiawinaku is 13 turns from completing the GL, but it should be done sooner - when the city grows in 2 turns, make sure we work the plains hill mine with the new citizen. Then whip it to completion and stop working the mines for a while - it will be a commerce powerhouse. Make sure that working at the river bend builds a farm when the jungle is cleared so that rice will be irrigated later. A cottage there would be a mistake.

Olantaytambo is being beset by a barb galley. I just whipped a galley of our own. This city needs a lighthouse and some mines, there's a worker on the job.

I'm starting to think that waiting for the Christian shrine might be a mistake for our Great Prophet. Might just want to merge him in the capital. We get 5 gpt (plus market bonus) and 2 extra hammers which will also be doubled by the Heroic Epic. Of course, the longer we sit on him, the better the shrine option becomes, because that will give a longer term boost. The problem is that in the longer term, we will already have won.

131999

Good turnset Mike.

We might get the GL after all.....and nice getting the gold in Teno.

So that makes Kikinit up.....and I am on deck.....

EDIT: Yeh that Cyrus is creative so he will hog up those borders....
We need to do something about that because horses do become critical later in the game. Although after some more warring we should be able to get another source.

Ok. I've got it. I'll play after my dinner in a few hours. How many turns are we playing now?

How close are we to warring? I guess I should build a lot of catapults and elephants. Elephants will be fine while we haven't got horses. I am sure by the time that horses become useful with Cavalry, we'll have a source.

I hope we haven't delayed Great Library too long. I will whip it when I get the chance but I don't want to whip it back to the stone ages.

I take it that our next opponent will be Qin? I will do some scouting of his cities and start assembling the forces near our borders with him.

Mostly just an inteligence gathering mission for these turns. I'm pleased to report that I think we are ready to go to war with Qin immediately. He closed borders with us on my last few turns so I guess he was starting to feel threatened. We could do with a few more cats and 'phants but what we've got will do. We will just have to accept some losses. We've got too many units costing us upkeep anyway.

(1)-515AD - We are listed as Puny! Bit surprising that as I thought we wouldn't be that bad.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0227.jpg

Washington also came along with this insulting deal. I asked him to crawl back in his hole he popped out off.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0228.jpg

(2)-530AD - Qin asks us to cancel our deals with the English. I haven't yet scouted out his lands so I say ok to keep him friendly for a little longer yet.

IBT: Our galley successfully defended against the barbarian galley and protects our fish. We lost the other fish to pillaging.

(3)-545AD - Here's the first pic of Shanghai. Not too well defended huh?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0229.jpg

I can whip the Great Library for 4/8 pop. I consider this too expensive so I take the chance and wait another turn.

(4)-560AD - Still 4 pop so no go.

(5)-575AD - JC declared on Hatty this turn.

Here's the recon from Beijing and Hangzhou.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0231.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0230.jpg

The great library has dropped to 3 pop so I whip it. I don't want to miss it. I still think it's pretty costly 3 pop but it seems the group wants this bad and I'd hate to miss it. The city is configured for fast growth now and will grow back reasonably quickly but will not produce much while it's doing it.

(6)-590AD - The Great Library's done.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0232.jpg

I disbanded a warrior that had finished exploring Cyrus's lands. A few more cats and 'phants and we can take on Qin.

(7)-605AD - JC demands we cancel all deals with Hatty who he's at war with. Now this is a tough one. Hatty is about the only person we are likely to be able to keep reasonable relations with... so I say no to JC. We'll see what he decides to do about that but we can handle pretorians now and he's got his hands full in a war with Hatty already who is quite powerful.

London (also Qin).

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/London.jpg

(9)-635AD - JC cancels OB with us. I guess that's his retaliation. We'll see if there's more to follow later. Best keep a few Axes handy around our cities facing his direction.

(10)-650AD - Qin cancels OB with us this turn. I think he's feeling threatened. And rightly so. I think that if next up feels up to it, he should declare on Qin immediately and take a few cities. We can keep on building army to take the remaining ones later but he'll be hurt badly from taking the two closest to us.

I've got 2 workers chopping a 2nd forest for MP. Once they are done the NE can be whipped in. I think that should be done as it will take forever to build it normally and MP will grow back pretty fast with all the food it's got.

Have a look at Cyrus! What is he up to? He's got a galley going through our lands again. Where are they going to?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/S01/Civ4ScreenShot0235.jpg

Here's the save:

It looks to me like the time to take out Qin is now. He was wonder happy for a while, so I'd guess his military power is pretty low. So whoever is up next, extort what you can and then start taking him out.

Also, the horses might flip back to us, especially once we take Sistine from Qin, since MP is our GP farm. Otherwise we'll just have to take Persopolis.

Nice turns KK. We were playing 15 turns, but 10 is OK too. Good decisions on whipping the GL and not cancelling deals with Hatty. There's no need to be Jewish anymore, have a look our options Cosmichail.

Ha, Qin's viewable defenses are laughable. Take him down! Good to see we'll capture the parthenon. Keep working on that academy.

Cosmichail is up for 15 (or 10 if he thinks it's appropriate)

sooooo - On Deck
blid
Asperge
mike p
Kikinit - Just played
Cosmichail - UP

"I got it" and will play later today...

Turn 0

Qin won’t give up anything can’t even extort. Hatty has Feudalism. I make a demand of Cyrus and get monotheism. He’s still at cautious. Sell him dyes for 2gpt. We have Mono now and can use GP for theology, and do that. (Sooo indicated he wanted it for theology but some wanted it for the shrine in the new holy city but I felt theology would be better at this point.)

We revolt to theocracy for XP.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0277.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0278.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0279.jpg


Turn 1

Teno finishes WE start another. Olly finishes WB start axe. Wkr finishes mine at Olly. Declare war on Qin go for Huangzhou first for Holy city. Science drops to 40%. He now has Cho ko nu in HZ.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0280.jpg

Turn 2

JC wants to trade for ivory get him to trade for spices instead. Hatty asks to go to war with JC decline she is still pleased. Worker starts cottage at Olly WB gets fish.

Turn 3

Hatty wants to trade theology for HBR we have no horses so decline try for feudalism no go and she has drama. Guangzhou finishes cat start another. Bombard HZ to 14%. Start cottage at MP.

Turn 4

JC asks war against Hatty decline. HA from Qin threatening us. Workers put road in dyes. We sure have peeved a lot of people off.

Turn 5

We get music start for COL for CH. (do not get artist btw). Cuzco finishes WE start another. WE attacks HA and wins. HZ grows take it in next turn. Hatty will give us Feudalism/410 gold for Music/theology and accept. Although I don’t like the deal having feudalism is good for Lbm and adds to our tech base. Sell corn to Toku for 1 gpt. Also sell Hatty dyes for 3 gpt I know JC won’t like this but he is already annoyed. COL due in 6 turns.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0283.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0284.jpg

Turn 6

Chinese archer threatens MP upgrade archer to Lbm just in case move WE in that direction.
Cat attacks HZ looses
Cat attacks HZ withdraws
Jag attacks HZ kills archer
Jag attacks HZ dies
Elephant attacks Chok and kills him
Jag attacks HZ and kills archer and capture city.
We get a worker and use him to farm the piggies.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0285.jpg

Turn 7

HA attacks Jag and kills him. Elephant attacks HA and kills him. Move lbm to intercept archer he threatens our corn at MP.

Turn 8

GZ finishes cat start another. We loose corn by archer lbm takes him out and put workers there to farm again. Worker stuff and troop movement.

Turn 9

JC threatens us for Ivory I decline. (the nerve)
Troop deployment…

Turn 10

Tiwanaku finishes WE start spear for HA. HZ comes out of revolt start lbm. Troop deployment, archer threatening HZ axe almost there and 1 jag left.

Turn 11

Liz wants to trade HBR for literature/310 gold decline. JC annoyed with us we have enough WE’s so build some Lbm’s. Troop deployment. Finish COL start Metal casting

Make a trade with Cyrus for HBR/Metal casting for Theology/Music. Start researching Civil service, try to extort machinery from Qin later.

I also whip National Epic in MP cost 2 pop.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0288.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0289.jpg

Turn 12

Teno finishes WE we have enough start aqueduct for better health for forge.
GZ finishes cat start another. MP finishes HE start Taoist temple for culture. Worker stuff/troop deployment.

Turn 13

WE takes out lbm heading for Shanghai
Cat attacks Shanghai looses
Axe attacks Shanghai looses
Jag attacks Shanghai wins
Jag attacks Shanghai wins
Elephant attacks Shanghai win and takes Shanghai

Move some WE towards MP just in case of JC. HA threatens GZ.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0291.jpg

Turn 14

Sell pigs to Toku (the last deal got cancelled) for 2gpt.
Jag takes out Chariot.
Ok we got Parthenon but don’t see the effects???

Turn 15

Tiwanaku finishes spear start forge but change it if you want.
Cuzco finishes lbm start CH -7gpt maintenance.
HA pillages spices at Cuzco Elephant takes him out. WE kill Chinese axe. Chinese archer threatening HZ send WE to intercept.

We are #1 in power You don’t know the power of the dark side…..


Here is the save:

Current save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132089&stc=1&d=1152479805)

After a quick scan it looks like successful turns - well done. Nice trading. Don't have time to read it in detail right now but I will do tomorrow and play tomorrow evening. Just watched a crazy world cup final. :crazyeye:Zidane:crazyeye:

People are going nuts in the streets of Hamilton, Ontario. We have lots of Italians here.....

don't understand it: we are at war and in theocratie, but city's with barracks are building unimportant buildings and city's without barracks make military????

doesn't matter, this is already won...

@Cosmichail: 'skying' is just nonsense, just like 'asperge' ( wat betekent dat in 't nederlands?)

Edit: Zidane is a hero:king:

They are building defensive units to garrison. What we probably need is a monastery to build missionaries and convert Tiwanaku/Guangzhou or go to OR for a bit to get some missionaries since OR doesn't do us any good either without being Jewish in all the cities. Right now only two cities are Christian. We can flip between theocracy/OR anytime (5 turns) just to benefit from the XP.

EDIT: Asperge betekent in het Engels "asparagus". Niet mijn favoriete eten. Ik heb veel liever een frikandel speciaal nou dat zul ik a ticket kopen op KLM van YYZ-AMS voor.

These turns took me a while so Blid, feel free to go to 12 or 10 turns if you don't want to spend so much time on this.

IHT: Move spare troops out of cities. We're not going to get sneak attacked when no. 1 in power. Kill archer. Cancel all Go-To orders. Switch Teno from aquaduct (?) to catapult. We don't have enough catapults. Set Tiwanaku (science city) to grow, severing production. At the moment it's only large enough to work the dyes OR the mines. If we grow it out it can work both. Move a medic which was defending a copper improvement to the front line.

The diplomatic situation for those following at home:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6966/foreignadvisor7in.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A few nice wars going on there. Toku is mainly losing.

Turn 1 (890 AD): Switch Ollantay to barracks! Missed that one. Open borders with Elizabeth because I want to move some troops through her lands.

Turn 2 (890 AD): Toku wants us to cancel deals with Elizabeth. No. Guangh to cat. Teno to cat.

Turns 3 and 4 (905 to 920 AD): Moving troops toward Beijing and London. Cho-Ku-Nus are proving annoying because we only have elephants that can deal with them.

Turn 4 (920 AD): We're not getting much benefit from Judaism + Theocracy. Revolt to No State Religion because some of our new cities need border pops and would otherwise be generating zero culture. Plus it helps us diplomatically. Go to Paganism + Vassalage. Teno to cat.

Turn 5 (935 AD): Shanghai out of revolt, starts granary. We are getting bonus from Parthenon now. We get a great scientist in MP. He heads to Tiwanaku to build an academy. Keep the 2 scientists because we could do with another academy in Teno, and can use the othe GS from Tiwanaku (from great library) for education.

Turn 6 (950 AD): Ollantay to cat. Huangh to granary. Kill chariot. I forget about the aquaduct in the queue at Teno and allow it to build it. Capture London:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1580/london0sq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Turn 7 (965 AD): Guangh to cat. Teno to cat. Cature Beijing + Colossus + Oracle + Sistine Chapel + 3 workers:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2320/beijing8fj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Turn 8 (980 AD): Build academy in Tiwanaku. Kill 2 archers. Open borders with Washington. JC revolts to Vassalage + Serfdom + Theocracy. Hmm.

Turn 10 (1010 AD): Liz wants theology. No. CS comes in. Make the following trades:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/509/hattytrade8wz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7523/washtrade8xe.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Revolt to Bureaucracy, start research on Paper.

Turn 11 (1025 AD): Elizabeth wants us to cancel deals with Toku. Say no, but should have said yes in hindsight. Guangh to CH. London to theatre (culturally pressured).

Turn 12 (1040 AD): Teno to forge. WW is hurting. Culture to 10%. Realise I want to research Engineering instead of Paper, switch to that. Sorry. I hate fighting wars without the 3 movement on roads. Well, not hate, but it's sometimes annoying.

Turn 13 (1055 AD): Toku wants us to cancel deals with Cyrus. No.

Turn 14 (1070 AD): Cyrus makes peace with Toku. He's still at war with JC and Hatty though, poor guy. There's a CRIII longbow and 2 CKNs among others at Xian but we take it with a few suicide cat losses.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/3959/xian1bs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Turn 15 (1085 AD): Huangh to barracks. Ollantay to maceman. A chinese HA captures a worker - oops. Kill it. Take Chengdu:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2575/chengdu3yl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Right. We are still in paganism and I haven't had chance to do much about spreading any particular religion. I think we should not bother about religion and go free religion when we get liberalism.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/3250/empire2ad.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Qin has one nice city in the NE but we don't have many forces in the area. I didn't go for Nanjing in the west because it would have revolted to JC. We can capture it when we attack JC (next?). WW is hurting quite badly now. Qin only has optics to extort. We should either get peace now or capture his city in the NE first. The only current wars involve JC, who is at war with both Hatty and Toku. JC has captured 3 japanese cities and one egyptian city.

Blid is up and Asperge is on deck.

sooooo - Just Played
blid - UP
Asperge - On Deck
mike p
Kikinit
Cosmichail

I am impressed soooo. Good turnset and you have crushed Qin. About the religion not interested in shrines and the money generated? The rate at we are going it doesn't matter much. If we get another GP we could use him for shrine and missionaries but that does take a lot of hammers. JC sounds like a good target.

Not much left of Qin. He must too have another source of iron for Cho ko nu's. It seems though that when you took Xian that might be his last source of iron. Now that we have civil service/mach it would nice to go after JC with Maces.

EDIT: some stuff removed because I forgot to remove my blinkers.....

I think Machinery was in one of the trades he did. I just went back and checked and don't see the trade pictures. I'm sure I saw them earlier! We'll let sooooo confirm that.

Good turns sooooo. I see you haven't lost any of your warmongering ability. You always surprise me with how many cities you take. I always think that it would take more turns than you have to move that far and take as many cities as you always seem to :D .

I also think a maceman attack on JC will be a good challenge. He is getting to be a decent size now.

I just see the trade now so we do have maces. Nice work again and I have to say soooo that I am rather impressed with your warmongering abilities. What did you take like 5 cities. Wow Kikinit you said it. This is monarch and we are flying like Asperge says looks like a win. Now that I see you are "a true warmonger" I won't hold back anymore. To be honest I wasn't sure if you just wanted to take a few cities and then sue for peace to stop the coin bleed. So I slowed down and felt we might need some infrastructure. Next time I will just keep building soldiers and keep going for a while after I have seen the "Master" at work. I don't mind being an apprentice to someone who shows superior ability.

I just have one observation. You reported WW but changed to non state religion. That does remove +1 happiness does it not?

At the point we are at I don't think we should care who doesn't agree with our religion. Cyrus/Hatty/Liz seem quite willing to trade and would be nice to use Washington for the same purpose.

EDIT: Just had a thought our poor Jags will be sitting idle now. But they sure proved their worth.

Quite a warmonger show soooo :goodjob:
Also that diplomatic screen was delightful. Yes war and war bunch of pacifist AIs.
So you want that last city NE and peace then ? Those cities west can be just razed though JC will take on the vacant space
Also, i think it is time to build a bit of economy. Didn't load the save, but I guess once thoses cities will get out of revolt, we will have a sharp increase in the maintenance fees

So you want that last city NE and peace then ?
Not sure, can't remember how many troops we have nearby. I'll leave that to you to decide. It probably won't be that well defended - Chengdu only had a single longbowman. I wouldn't bother to raze the city in the west, instead extort Optics, build a couple of caravels and seek out the other continent. The game feels more like panagea because 9 out of the 11 civs are on the same continent. However, it could be Mansa and Gandhi over there teching like crazy.

Just had a thought our poor Jags will be sitting idle now. But they sure proved their worth.
Yes, I think we've proved the worth of the Jaguar in this game.

There is no starving at 10% culture. I prefer to get the research. Prod is not the biggest concern right now

Near the NE city there are 2 cats and an axe. I upgrade the latter to mace. The turns that we gain on war with Qin would probably compensate for the upgrade

MP starts a market (to hire merchants). London completes the theatre and starts courthouse (helped with chopping)

JC asks to get in war with Toku. Send him home. Next turn, it is JC again, this time it is the trades he wants to cancel

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet3/01-JCAnnoyingAndAnnoyed.jpg


What is wrong with this guy, no no no no no no no no no no f**k off. What will he do, start a third war front ? Baaaah.

The city NE is the new chines capital. Guarded by a longbow and an axe. My cats and mace would not do it. But 2 phants are coming. I hope this city is worth the trouble

Hatty asked for war against JC.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet3/02-HattyDemands.jpg


I am tempted to accept, but we need to get some peace turns for building up a bit. I refuse recluctantly. Liz cancels OBs. I didn't notice she was that upset. I hope she won't get bold and declare on us. We are stronger, but she may take an undefended city or 2. Need to keep some defenses east.

When reinforcments come at NE city, another LB is there and bombarding is just finished. Send 2 cats. One dies, one retreats. Then, it's mop up.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet3/03-QinCapital.jpg


After that, I dial Qin

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet3/04-ChinesePeace.jpg


Always like to switch AIs in useless civics :lol:. I did left the western city alone since we don't want to raze it nor take it right now due to roman culture. Qin has another city or 2 but I don't have the slightest hint where the hell he put them

Cyrus asks to stop trading with Toku.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/S-01/turnSet3/05-CyrusDemands.jpg


That turnset was all about demands. This one I gladly accept. We were selling Toku dyes for a measly 2g and he was annoyed with us :crazy: . Damn him. Cyrus was pleased and I wanted to keep it this way

A scientist was born on my last turn. We can make an academy in capital but IMO, getting philo is better at this point. Only Toku has it in the known civs. We can burn him to get philo only when there are tradable techs and then trade immediately. This way, we don't help any civ research philo faster and also dissaude Toku from trading it away as he will keep monopoly

2 caravels are ready next turn

Built mainly courthouses (some were whipped). Cities are building forges and granaries mainly. I advise next to get some theatres in big cities before we go to the next war. Please build some, many players ignore them but they are very efficient for happiness management at war

And stop saying the game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/I'm_a_Jaguar_AD-1154.Civ4SavedGame) is won. It's difficult for me to concentrate thereafter :lol:

Nice builder turns again Blid. I'm sorry you haven't had chance to apply the :hammer: yet - probably you will next time around.

Asperge is UP! I guess we want to build some troops and scout the Roman lands. I wouldn't worry about Liz attacking. She's not stupid, and rarely attacks anyone more powerful than herself.

sooooo
blid - Just played
Asperge - UP
mike p - On Deck
Kikinit
Cosmichail

So what tech do we want to go for? I'm sure we can get liberalism, but there's no need to go for it straight away.

And stop saying the game is won.

hmmm, after your turns i'm not sure anymore.....:D

Probably i'm gonna build a bit (FP in Ganghzou), make some defence-forces and gather the attacking ones near....Caesar or Elizabeth?, and explore the oceans.

So what tech do we want to go for? I'm sure we can get liberalism, but there's no need to go for it straight away

The other choice is gunpowder[EDIT > guilds] > knights > our large empire needs some fast warriors.

Why does everybody always make courthouses as first building in a city. I hate that. Maybe i'm gonna host a game where it's forbidden to build courthouses anywhere ( or only when city reaches size 10). Interest? Probably no one :D

make some defence-forces and gather the attacking ones near....Caesar or Elizabeth?, and explore the oceans.

Forget about Liz. I wrote something about her being annoyed in my report, but that was before I check her cities and power graph. Just imagine her cities are places to go settle directly when we want. Definitely Caesar while he is busy with two other wars


The other choice is gunpowder > knights > our large empire needs some fast warriors.


Guilds is a good choice. paper->Edu is nice too to start unis but it don't matter since this game is already won (oops I said it). Why would you research gunpowder before guilds ? muskets are crap


Why does everybody always make courthouses as first building in a city. I hate that. Maybe i'm gonna host a game where it's forbidden to build courthouses anywhere ( or only when city reaches size 10). Interest? Probably no one


immediate 5 to 8 gpt saving, nothing equals that as those cities are not full developed ones yet. It would be different if the city was generating a base 20 commerce.

There is something annoying in the diplomatic field. Hatty and GW are super buddies. And they will be the main opponents once JC is burnt. Don't favour them in trades. That is if we ever have the choice

@Blid: 1th quote - i agree with you

2th quote - wrote gunp., but meant guilds (>knights)

3th quote - imo first make a courthouse is short-term policy, first make granery-(lighthouse)-force-(library) is long-term policy. 5-to 8 savings is something, but i see it happen when maintenance is only 2 or 3 (=1 gold saving). Saving 8 means probably a big city which can whip a courthouse or build it within a few turns)

I'll gather mainforces near Caesar.

I dunno, I've recently decided that knights are rubbish. They are worse at attacking cities than macemen (can't be city raiders), can't defend, and are v. vulnerable to pikemen. Macemen are better, cheaper, and don't really have a counter (except crossbows, but who builds those?). Guilds is on the way to gunpowder. But so is education. It would be good to go Education -> Gunpowder -> Liberalism (take Chemistry) -> Steel. Or if we're more ambitious, research chemistry and take steel with liberalism.

Knights are fast and strenght 10, i use them for quick help when in trouble.
But i want go for banking cause our science rate is below 40% and it gives mercantilism and we are spiritual. Besides this, my usual way is liberalism or steel, now want try sonmething different cause the game is already ***.:p

Thanks to Blid i've done my 15+1 turns and it was not thrilling but the nice thing was exploring our world with caravels, meeting the last two leaders and getting the extra watermovementpoint wich offcause is not important for this game.

After two turns we met Saladin. He lives south of us and is doing not bad: He knew already Cyrus who became soon his worst enemy.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h34/aspergeimage/Civ4JaqSaladin.jpg


After 5 turns we met Mansa. He also lives in the south and knows Saladin.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h34/aspergeimage/Civ4JaqMansa.jpg


At the end of my turnset was this our current knowledge of the world:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h34/aspergeimage/Civ4JaqWorld.jpg



We got a second scientist who i changed into a academie in Tenochtitlan.
We discovered gunpowder and Hatheput gave me philosophy for it with some small money, so little some would critizise me for it, but my excuse is Washinton already got it.
Then i discovered we already put some money in Paper so i went on with that, we 'll get it in one turn.
Halfway my turnset we build Forbidden Palace.
Build a lot of longbows to replace other units wich i send to the roman borders.
Regret that we made cottages in our National Epic city. Imo should be farms.

It's annoying the computer often gives your city's specialists where you don't want them. How to avoid that? Emphasis food?

Next one good luck. Our army near the roman borders is growing. Maybe we should convert to vassalage.

Discovered i forgot to save, replayed last two turns:mad:

help! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/I'm_a_Jaguar_AD-1250.Civ4SavedGame)

Excuses, everything suddenly goes wrong.

Mike P is up!

sooooo
blid
Asperge - Just Played
mike p - UP
Kikinit - On Deck
Cosmichail

A few observations: London is making 3 beakers. It therefore does not need a library. I see the FP is being mined as I speak, and when it has enough food to feed its miners it can become a military powerhouse. Chengdu needs cottaging and farming.

There is a great scientist in Tiwanaku (can't see it mentioned in report), which should be used for education IMO. After paper and education: Gunpowder, then see who else has education.

Use whip in new cities to speed along basic infra. Build military in core cities.

But I don't have to tell mike P any of this. For he is a Master.

It's great to see that Mansa diplo screen and