I think this just might be the craziest start I've ever had in any of the 4 Civ games.

Not only does this start place me a mere 2 squares away from the Russians, but it is at the tip of a peninsula to boot. Instantly boxed in, and any attempt to move even one square forward will probably result in Moscow being build and me being booted back to the tip of the peninsula.

I'm torn between playing this horrible start just as a curiousity and switching over to the world builder just to see what the rest of the map must be like if I got plunked this close to Catherine.

So, I figured I'd post it here--in part because it is amusing, and in part because I'm curious how everyone else would approach it if we go with the assumption that you wouldn't just regenerate the map.

Settings: Playing as Washington (Financial, Organized) (but renamed as Teddy Roosevelt)
Monarch difficulty, "shuffle" map type, standard world size, random climate and ocean level (that the settings screen says came out as "cold climate" and "medium sea level"... shouldn't the settings screen keep that private?) Game speed is marathon.


My ideas for the immediate opening:
* Build Washington right away (will get penned in otherwise if I move 1 NW and Moscow is built, I believe I'll get bounced back to where I started. This will also force Catherine to move to a new spot to settle Moscow to get the required 3 squares away (though she may still get to settle in the first turn if she has grassland/plains to her north). But I might get lucky and get a 1-turn starting advantage on her--I'll take anything I can get.
* Move the Warrior NE (will map the most area for potential Moscow sites... I'm going to need to know exactly what Moscow is settled on)
* Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior... until I get a 2 to 1 ratio, maybe 2:1 plus 1. For me to have a prayer, I think I'll need to knock her out immediately.
* This is another reason I need to build where I am--right now, Moscow would be settled on Hills, and that might make it impossible to conquer using just warriors. I can't count on having any metal or horses in range, plus by the time I can research them and build a decent army of chariots/axes, if Moscow is still standing, I've probably lost--good chance a second city will be built and I'll be penned in. Catherine's culture bonus will pen me in fast if I let her get another city.

Anyway, I'm going to play this one out and see how it goes. Would love to hear thoughts from others about this challenging start.

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Added later: Just realized I should upload the game file in case anyone wants to try it themselves. I've played about 5 turns, and things are already interesting. I'll not spoil the fun for anyone else, though!

Declare war now and hope for the best.

You are not boxed. Build city where you start and you will have diagonal way out

You are not boxed. Build city where you start and you will have diagonal way out

not quite, if you do build the city now, you will have a 1 square radius. cathy will build 1 square away and her boarders will expand MUCH fasters then yours. you will still get boxed in.

however you might get out with

a) war, though I hardly see how that will ever work seeing as she has 2 free archers and all you have is warriors and ocean squares.

b) make a gally and go out that way. then if she hasn't kill you yet, CHARGE.

not sure if this will work, I am only a prince player.

I'd be willing to bet that there are no tiles for Catherine to be able to move and settle in on the first turn other than the tile to her immediate west. If you settle in place, which is not such a bad site given your leader, it looks like she will be moving into a forest tile no matter which direction she moves. I'd move your Warrior onto her start location just to see what her options are. The fat cross for her current location, at least what we know about it, is marginal at best, and moving one tile west doesn't make things better for her.

I agree ... it's the worst start I've ever seen! :eek:

The only unlikely options I see are;

. Bronze Working - hope for Copper - chop Axes.

. ArmoredCavalry's suggestion of getting on a boat and settling your second and third cities elsewhere.

This is actually an extraordinarily good start. First, your capital has 4 bonus food resources. That's great. Then, you've got an opponent really close. That's great too. It means that :
1- it will be easier to kill them;
2- when you take their capital, it will be very good (capitals always are) and right next to your own capital, so very little maintenance.

Path to glory :
1- settle in place
2- watch as Catherine has to move away to found her city, because all cities must be 3 tiles apart
3- research bronze working, while building a warrior
4- steal her only worker
5- research archery (no resource needed to produce archers)
6- pop rush and chop rush a huge quantity of archers, and take her out

No need to even found a second city, she'll do it for you.

^ Then again, that might work! ;)

This is the one instance where you wish you were Mali so you could make skirmishers!

I also think it's a good start, because of the excellent resources. But I would build a workboat.

I would build a workboat too, but only after building a warrior. Otherwise, i wouldn't be able to steal a worker, so i'd be down a worker and she'd have one more. The best way to kill her is to start early!

Zombie's strat may just work, but if she moves one square ne and builds there, then it doesn't matter whatever you do you will be screwed, as then the only workable i.e choppable land tile you will have after cult exp (her's will come way before yours remember) will be the one your warrior stands on..and then you couldn't possibly match her in terms of archer production, unless you fluke bronze in that one square (or horses I suppose)..

Post a screenshot showing where she settles if you will..(and if she does settle 3 tiles away, is there any point in the long term keeping moscow anyways?)

Well I dloaded file and played a few turns myself (its Emperor lvl btw not Monarch you're on, and marathon speed which makes a big difference) I took worker and she settled, of course on the nearest hill (so archer rush is pretty much out of question) swapped from hunting research to mining /bw mid stream..good luck to you, not a game I'd want to play :)

131374

Well, there is some hope ... :crazyeye:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/anythingspossible.gif

I would build a workboat too, but only after building a warrior. Otherwise, i wouldn't be able to steal a worker, so i'd be down a worker and she'd have one more.

Wrong. I just tried it, and I captured her worker on turn 3 with my initial warrior (she sent it off in a different direction from her settler!). I don't have the patience to play very many turns at Marathon speed, but I got to the point of building a mine with my captured worker, growing my starting city to size 2, working the mine to produce a workboat, and it seems to me that I have a super position, with only my starting warrior. The warrior is fortified on the woods hill, so, if she comes to attack me with an archer (which she hasn't yet), I should win.

Well, who would have expected she'd be dumb enough to send the worker in the opposite direction? Of course if she's that stupid, then you won't need another warrior.

Well, who would have expected she'd be dumb enough to send the worker in the opposite direction?

It just goes to show, it's impossible to underestimate the Artificial "Intelligence". :)

AI close by, that means easy free worker and a second capital. As Zombie stated, chop and pop rush axemen if possible, otherwise go for archer rush. Personally, good ratio for axemen before attacking would be around 1.5 to 1, or 2 to 1. If I only have archers, I would wait until I have 3:1 advantage before attacking. In this case, you should ignore wonders for Roosevelt, you need to conquer and expand, otherwise you are pretty much dead in the water (especially on higher levels). For some actual game example of early rush, you can refer to one of my previous postings where I skirmisher rushed Rome and killed Caesar before he can build praetorians.

I'm amazed at how this one has turned out. Spoilers follow!


First turn: Went NE. Found the cattle resource. Stunned to see Russian worker move away from the pack. The AI must have something built in to figure that the worker will be safe for a few turns from animals/barbarians.

I didn't take a screen shot after I moved my warrior, but I went onto the cattle and found the goodie hut to the east. Dang! The Russian scout on the square I just left will be able to get to it in the next move.

2nd turn: See screenshot. Russian scout did *not* go after the goodie hut. Surprise! I wonder what's inside? Mysticism! Now, since I've already written this game off and I figure the chances of nearby bronze are slim-to-none, I decided to go after founding a religion instead--hopefully helping me fight back against Catherine's culture bonus. (Not really the savviest war move, but what the heck.)

A few turns later: Moscow is founded on the hill--no warrior rush is going to be possible. But one of Catherine's scouts is visible again and the worker is still lurking around. I make a decision to kill the scout and intercept the worker.


Later: I founded Hinduism, now going after mining and then will hit bronze working. I've built several warriors and surrounded Moscow. No settler is going anywhere for Catherine. She goes into archer spam mode--she keeps building another archer to bring her total to 3, then sends one out into the field, usually dying to my fortified forest-based warriors.

Later: I finally get bronze working. Lo and behold, there is copper 2 spots to the NW of Washington--d'oh! I could have been more aggressive with going after copper earlier, in hindsight. Shouldn't have played around with the religion. But of course, play time isn't done, since as you can see I also started building Stonehenge instead of a barracks like I normally would have.

That's the end of the screen shots. I got beat to Stonehenge, but that at least gave me some nice cash for me as I started going into axeman manufacturing. After some of my guardian warriors died, Catherine finally made a settler. After she built up a total of 4 archers, she sent the settler into the field with a 2 archer escort. I killed them with my axemen, healed up, and went after Moscow with a 5 axemen vs. 2 archer advantage, and took the city.

Kind of wish I'd taken it a little more seriously early and went after bronze sooner and built a barracks sooner, instead of goofing around chasing Hinduism and Stonehenge. Karakhorum is 8 E, 4 S of Moscow, and they've built up 8 cities to my 2. I'm currently going after them with axemen but with only 2 cities to make them vs. 8 for Khan, it is a bit hard to make headway. I've taken 2 Mongol cities (including Karakhorum and its Stonehenge) but I'm having to wait to reload my entry-level axeman recruits to keep the charge going. Not an ideal way to go. Further, the Arabs are further to the SE of the Mongols, and they're also built up quite a few cities.

you mean you had one of best posible starting position and manage to spoil it? :)

The starting position didn't look too bad. :P

Yes, incredible. To waste such a strong starting position. I only wish i could start so close to the AI in one of my games. Even better, to a stupid AI who cares more about religion than building an army. Such good things never happen to me. I sure as hell wouldn't waste the opportunity if it was given to me!

The ice by the mountain looks like volcano smoke...

As Zombie stated, chop and pop rush axemen if possible
:confused: With due respect to Zombie, I must have missed the 'rush axemen' suggestion.

Personally, good ratio for axemen before attacking would be around 1.5 to 1, or 2 to 1. If I only have archers, I would wait until I have 3:1 advantage before attacking.

In my attempt I required about 2.5 American Axemen per Russian Archer. I was dealing with an enemy with 40% city cultural protection fortified in a city on top of a hill.

I am but a humble Monarch player, but I think that it only worked out well thanks the the relatively close presence of copper and good fortune that Catherine's Archers didn't take out the forest-fortified American Warriors. There were several :smoke:moments on behalf of the A.I. though - bringing out mini-SODs of Archers just helped promote my Axes for instance.

For what it's worth I played; Settled on spot Stole Russian Worker Built second Warrior before two Work Boats Mining > Bronze Working New York founded adjacent to copper (Largely chopped) 2 x Barracks and 12 x Axes (it took 9 to take down Moscow - the first three didn't even shave a point off the defenders).Catherine built two cities to the east of Moscow, but they fell too to the Axe rush.

Well, i almost typed another step, saying if you fing copper right next to your city, obviously build axemen. But since the chance of that happening were next to nil, and it was obvious anyway, i left it out. Check out the points detailed in my post on the last page. You'll see that they happened to describe a strategy that would have been perfect for this game. First tech bronze working, steal worker, chop and pop rush army and go for the kill.

I don't mean to quibble or be at all critical of what you said, but I found it odd that mutax2003 was saying that you "stated" something that you clearly didn't.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the @$$, and I very much respect the suggestions you make in this forum, but ... it was just ... weird.

Ok, i get the point now. You're right, he was paraphrasing the wrong person. Or making the same assumption i did (if copper available, obviously make axemen and not archers) but thought was too obvious to be worth mentioning.

Yes, incredible. To waste such a strong starting position. I only wish i could start so close to the AI in one of my games. Even better, to a stupid AI who cares more about religion than building an army. Such good things never happen to me. I sure as hell wouldn't waste the opportunity if it was given to me!

Yeah, that's what I get for not taking the game seriously. I played it as a curiosity, not as a legit game--I almost just restarted, then figured, what the heck, might as well play for a few turns just to see what the extended map is like. I think I've tried to found a religion about 3 times ever--I didn't expect to play until the end of researching it.

I will say, had there not been copper 2 squares away, this would have been a lot more brutal than it turned out to be. That, and the AI managing to hose the start. If Isabella had moved 1 square straight to the north, it would have been a lot more difficult--she'd have owned the copper, had fresh water, fish and cattle to grow with, and with her cultural edge would have blocked me in.

So, a couple (really simple) lessons learned, which really is the point of this post:
1) If you bother to play a start, no matter how bad, take it seriously.
2) Not that this wasn't known already, but this serves as a reminder: even a single archer on a hilled city is a heck of an early-game defense scheme.
3) Even though the AI is a lot better than previous Civs, it still makes some really unusual choices, such as the wandering worker seen here.

Probabbility to get cooper was very higth. Land was generated for 2 civs, so that why special resources were so concentrated. One of 2 civs bougth to have a cooper about and because you have advantage of founding first probability was hight for you to get it.

u think u got the worst starting position ever? lol not even close try start surrounded by peaks therefore making it impossible to leave ur first town in any direction :badcomp:

mutineer is right, the probability to have a special ressource was high.
It may have been iron, though.

And i don't think you "spoiled" the game.
An early state religion at emperor level is good (happiness is a big problem) + gave you the cultural push against the creative catherine.
Stonehenge was an odd idea though... So little hammers, no stone, not industrious at emperor level, and no BW for the chopping = lost cause.
A few workboats + settler + warriors would have made a better start (IMHO monarch player opinion).

I think you still have a good chance to win : so much seafood+financial+starting with fishing is almost the best start possible :lol:

Fish and whips! ;)

Do you think Moscow should be razed?

Fish and whips! ;)

Do you think Moscow should be razed?

why would you raze it?
it has cows, elephants, deers and is very close to the capital

It's a pretty good city, and he doesn't have that much yet.

I found that playing every single start since I moved to Monarch without reloading the map has made me a much better player. It forced me to spend time learning my environment and leveraging many so-called non-optimal conditions. I even play a random leader every game. I have even made efforts to curtail my old save/reload habits from earlier civ games by leaving random seed off. It keeps me from going for the same units and wonders over and over.

I have found that the closer the AI is, the easier it is to assimilate its capital early, even with a stack of archers beating at your door:
+ You get to steal a worker almost immediately
- You get to go to war almost immediately. You didn't feel ready to fight.
+ You get to go to war almost immediately. The AI isn't ready to fight either.
- You get to go to war almost immediately. You didn't build your unstoppable army of Macemen before your first war like you wanted to. You got so used to those massive military advantages of earlier levels.
+ Higher chance of metal nearby. The map has to be packed if the AI is that close, since it likes to space the players out with somewhat similar starts.
- Higher chance of metal nearby, but closer to the AI. Some people complain that they have no metal, the AI has it. Well, if the AI is close and you kill the AI as soon as possible, you have a larger empire with metal. There are more ways to kill an archer-defended city than just an axe rush. The quick Axe rush is just the most powerful. With close AI remember to pillage or otherwise prevent them from using any metal that THEY have access to before they can build any stronger units than that archer.

oops- skipped a page, looks like these points were already covered.

Not sure what the problem is here. Copper, lots of resources, a free worker and a second city nearby. ;)

On the games i have played the Russian never seem to play that aggressive. On my last domination win the French were whipping the Russians evern with their cossacks about. I was let down by them. All that free technology wasted on their weak effort. So 20 or so turns later i gave the french a few free techs to attack the Russians. Fun fun fun. Never rely on Russians!!

Heh, I tried this start and something kinda funny happened. Spoiler below........







Anyway, after settling north of the copper I set up an axe-rush and destroyed Catherine, keeping 2 of her 3 cities. St. Petersburg was the last city I took and it was right on Khan's border. I fortified all of my Axemen in St. Petersburg(I had 6 I think). Pretty soon I notice Khan has a huge stack of about 10 chariots and one archer, plus a couple of loose chariots close by. So I'm thinking how am I ever gonna take care of that stack..... A couple of turns later, Khan decares war on me and sends his chariots into my territory.
St. Petersburg had just expanded thanks to my recently founded Confucianism/missionary..... and it had 20% cultural defense. So next turn, Khan sends 8 or 9 chariots at my city and I watch every single one of his chariots lose, only one withdrawing with 0.2 health left... I was really worried about taking them down, but Khan went ahead and did all of the work for me... Thanks Khan.
Here's a shot of the rest of his army in his closest city....

EDIT: Settled NW of copper, not north. Not like it matters.

I had a similar game to this (starting right on top of someone) except I was a leader that starts with a scout, and my opponent started with a warrior.

Umm... I lost :-)