Perhaps this is stating the blindly obvious but....

There are probably a few courses of action we can take to get this game up to a standard that befits its £39/$50 price-tag. I haven't actually got the game yet but I wrote to Aspyr's general information mailbox, politely of course :cool:, pointing out what I have seen on these boards, that clearly they need to act and asking them what they are going to do and when. Consider doing so yourself, if you haven't already. When you pay this much for something that is so eagerly anticipated it's really not much to expect that they tell us what the hell is going on (at the very least), let alone fix it :sad:.

I suppose everyone needs to report everything:scan:, write to/call Aspyr and make them give us some info. The more that is done the better. As and when I recieve a reply I'll post it - of course it may be entirely uninformative :sad:

Well, I have a ticket open with the two major issues (sound & kernel panics). And they can't brush me off, since I fully meet all recommended specs.

I'll let everyone know when I get a response.

OK, I'll put all my performance-related commentary here - there seem to be 5 threads devoted to "how is it working on your system" so in my little effort to make things efficient I'll stay on this one, as I need to report to Aspyr.

I have a latest-greatest Intel dual-core iMac, 20", 1.5 GB RAM.

The game loads, and plays. The lead-in with Nimoy giving us the history of the universe has successfully played through once.

More importantly, several turns into the ancient era, with the default graphics settings changed such that the graphics are at the best settings the software offers, I get perfectly reproducible OS crashes always coming out of the graphics card. FYI yes I have the correct version of the most recent OS patch, not the one that has improper Open GL configuration.

I'll try to find the best graphics settings I can play on - but if those are only the worst settings that the software offers - in particular, the lowest screen resolution - then I'll be a bit frustrated that one of the "recommended" systems and in fact one of the latest systems from Apple is insufficient to play the game at optimal graphics settings.

I am assuming Aspyr is gathering information for a patch soon.

"I get perfectly reproducible OS crashes always coming out of the graphics card"

This worries me - I know very little about Macs, as a recent defector from Bill's Blue & Green Barmy Army, and I don't yet understand them properly. It would seem that people are having entirely different issues - sound, graphics etc. - and people's experience are entirely variant.

If it is a case that this game is 'broken' because Aspyr released just as Apple released updates it does make you wonder how well the 2 companies co-ordinate...pretty poor show.

Is anyone going to/actually have tried rolling back their system before the latest Tiger updates to see what happens??

Is anyone going to/actually have tried rolling back their system before the latest Tiger updates to see what happens??

Well if I recall correctly someone reported that they had issues with 10.3.9 and QT 7.0.4, so the 10.4.7 update is probably only part of the problem.

Well if I recall correctly someone reported that they had issues with 10.3.9 and QT 7.0.4, so the 10.4.7 update is probably only part of the problem.
I'm using 10.4.6 with QT 7.0.4 and I'm having sound issues as well.

I've got an iBook G4 so I know that I don't a snowballs chance in hell of running CIV but which systems out there are capable of running CIV? Who's having success or is the conversion by Aspyr so flawed that nobody has success running CIV.

Oh.... I can play it. It's just slow with no sounds. But it's playable.

I am assuming Aspyr is gathering information for a patch soon.
According to the latest post by Glenda Adams of Aspyr at IMG (http://www.insidemacgames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26228&view=getnewpost) they consider the kernel panics to be a graphics driver problem outside their control, though they will work with Apple and ATI/Nvidea to resolve it. I find this surprising. Surely Civ4 isn't the most graphics-intensive game ever to have hit an OS X system?

That Glenda Adams post is pretty patronizing...thanks for informing us, the children who bought your program, basics of computer gaming! We had no idea that turning up the graphics options will cause the game to slow down!

They don't seem to be taking the performance problems seriously. It's like Blizzard. "Working as intended, guys! The Paladin is SUPPOSED to be useless!"

It's becoming pretty clear from the various forums that there's something going on with Civ IV and PowerPC's. Most of the Intel machines are doing perfectly beyond the sound.

Except for the kernel panics, anyway.

According to the latest post by Glenda Adams of Aspyr at IMG (http://www.insidemacgames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26228&view=getnewpost) they consider the kernel panics to be a graphics driver problem outside their control, though they will work with Apple and ATI/Nvidea to resolve it. I find this surprising. Surely Civ4 isn't the most graphics-intensive game ever to have hit an OS X system?
It's pretty disappointing to hear this Aspyr...

Call of Duty 2 would probably have to be the most graphic intensive game to hit the Mac to date. And that game didn't have nearly as many as issues out of the box as Civ IV does.

Uhh, i am not sure what you guys are talking about but it might just be that you don't have enough ram or processor power. I'm not sure about the Kernal Panics though.

It runs perfectly on my mac(*cough* intel mac).

Works perfectly well on my Intel Mac.

Well, that is, except for the sound not working properly.

And except for this one time last night when my computer completely locked up. Not a kernel panic, not a crash, just a complete lockup requiring hard restart.

And something that I can't effectively complain about - that it is a completely kludgy PC port down to the fact that it calls my hard drive C: when browsing to a 'custom music folder'. Can't they use standard Mac windows and file browsing calls?

So, other than opening tickets at Aspyr support, is there anywhere else we can send complaints about sub-standard performance?

So, other than opening tickets at Aspyr support, is there anywhere else we can send complaints about sub-standard performance?

Aspyr's support desk is THE point of contact to have bugs posted. I'm sure they also browse here as well, for additional insights. You could probably send complaints to their PR wing. But, by now, they're well aware of the issues.

"It runs perfectly on my mac(*cough* intel mac)."

Even the sound?? What are you doing? What are your specs? OS X version etc.

He said the sound doesn't work.

And I can now report that, aside from sound, it's working perfectly on max settings for me. The key to removing kernel panics is to run in windowed mode. Like C3C, it appears testing in full-screen mode was either nonexistent or grossly inadequate.

And I can now report that, aside from sound, it's working perfectly on max settings for me. The key to removing kernel panics is to run in windowed mode. Like C3C, it appears testing in full-screen mode was either nonexistent or grossly inadequate.

Well, that's a bit of good news. After all, I (and, I'm sure, many other users) like to work on MS Word documents, listen to music, play movies and surf the Internet while playing games at the same time.

BTW, how did you find out playing in windows mode eliminates kernel panics? Heh. Just curious because, until Civ IV came out, I'd thought kernel panics had been pretty much eliminated from OS X.

Gatekeeper

Response from Aspyr

"We are aware of the technical issues that occur on this game. We are now working
on providing solutions for these problems, but as you said, these things take
time to resolve, and there is really no way to hurry the process. The only thing
I can tell you is to keep checking out our support page for the game here:
http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/civ4/support/
Any solutions that we come up with will be posted here as soon as they are
tested.

Thanks for your patience."

:cry:

Thank you for contacting us,

We are aware of this issue and are currently working to get an update
out for Civ 4. The performance hit is due to some fundemental problems
in the original game that we tried to iron out as best as possible, but
the mac system doesn't handle quite as well as the pc counterpoint.
Our developement team is aware of these issues and will work to fix these
issues. I hope this helps. You can also sign up for our newsletter
via our website for patch info and realese dates.

A bit more detail from Aspyr.

I noticed also that my computers processors were maxed out completely while running the game. I believe that the crashes some people experience are due to this... their computers are getting too hot from the constant maxing out of the processors, so the whole computer shuts down.

I wonder if running processors at full like that for long periods can be detrimental to some systems with cooling issues? I played for a few hours without a glitch on my dual G5 2.0. But it seems other people aren't as lucky.

Where's the patch?!

Poor good old Brad Oliver. You know he has someone from Aspyr breathing down his neck. I don't envy the guy right now, but I am sure glad he is in our court.

BTW, how did you find out playing in windows mode eliminates kernel panics? Heh. Just curious because, until Civ IV came out, I'd thought kernel panics had been pretty much eliminated from OS X.
Glenda suggested that dropping graphics quality would help. That was unproductive, it actually made the situation worse. But, the base suggestion was that it was a performance problem in some sense. So, I tried kdoran's suggestion that windowed mode improved performance. It worked, and that's all she wrote.

I wonder if running processors at full like that for long periods can be detrimental to some systems with cooling issues? I played for a few hours without a glitch on my dual G5 2.0. But it seems other people aren't as lucky.

It shouldn't. I've been playing it on a MacBook Pro and, despite the fact that there have been complaints and concerns about the heat on this machine, I don't think that is the cause of any of my problems.

I have previously burnt a number of DVDs in iDVD and ripped others with Handbrake. Both these max out the processor for long periods of time. There was never any problem because the fans kick on and keep the chips at a relatively stable (but high) temperature.

I have had the game completely lock up my computer a few times - not a clear kernel panic or crash but near enough as makes no difference (worse even because you have to power off to get out of it). But this really didn't seem to be because of excessive heat so much as - well - a bad program.

More importantly, several turns into the ancient era, with the default graphics settings changed such that the graphics are at the best settings the software offers, I get perfectly reproducible OS crashes always coming out of the graphics card. FYI yes I have the correct version of the most recent OS patch, not the one that has improper Open GL configuration.

I know this is asking a lot, but would you be willing to downgrade to 10.4.6 and give it a whirl?

Call of Duty 2 would probably have to be the most graphic intensive game to hit the Mac to date. And that game didn't have nearly as many as issues out of the box as Civ IV does.

Graphics-intensive probably isn't the best phrase. Civ4 is the most cutting-edge though, in terms of overall feature usage even if it isn't immediately apparent. The leader heads make use of pixel shaders, for example, while the globe view - and the leader heads again - make use of render texture targets and pbuffers. The video card is pushed pretty hard.

Like C3C, it appears testing in full-screen mode was either nonexistent or grossly inadequate.

What is wrong with fullscreen mode in C3C?

And something that I can't effectively complain about - that it is a completely kludgy PC port down to the fact that it calls my hard drive C: when browsing to a 'custom music folder'. Can't they use standard Mac windows and file browsing calls?

Yeah, I agree the C: is abhorrent. That is logged as something to be fixed, but it was a lower-priority and we ran out of time for the GM.

But no, we can't easily use the standard Mac dialogs. When OpenGL is running fullscreen, Mac dialogs will not render properly.

I have had the game completely lock up my computer a few times - not a clear kernel panic or crash but near enough as makes no difference (worse even because you have to power off to get out of it). But this really didn't seem to be because of excessive heat so much as - well - a bad program.

Yeah, heat and CPU usage are not really going to be the issue here.

If it is locking up solid for you though, that's probably a kernel panic. In OpenGL fullscreen mode, the panic dialog will not render properly. If you feel up to it, try to get it to lock up again, then restart once it does. When that happens, look in your panic.log file (via Apple's Console app) and see if a new entry has been appended to the end. If not, check out the system.log file. When ATI cards crash in OpenGL, they'll sometimes spew something to the system.log file right before a kernel panic.

Finally, I'm curious to hear if anyone on the Intel Macs is seeing kernel panics - or solid lockups - under 10.4.6.

Yeah, heat and CPU usage are not really going to be the issue here.

If it is locking up solid for you though, that's probably a kernel panic. In OpenGL fullscreen mode, the panic dialog will not render properly. If you feel up to it, try to get it to lock up again, then restart once it does. When that happens, look in your panic.log file (via Apple's Console app) and see if a new entry has been appended to the end. If not, check out the system.log file. When ATI cards crash in OpenGL, they'll sometimes spew something to the system.log file right before a kernel panic.

Finally, I'm curious to hear if anyone on the Intel Macs is seeing kernel panics - or solid lockups - under 10.4.6.

I looked in my logs for anything and didn't see it after my first lockup. I haven't checked after the two subsequent ones so will scan through all of them to see if there is anything there... later tonight when I get home.

I don't have the C: under "Custom Music Folder" I see my folders and drives. I wonder why that is? 10.4.7 dual G5 2.0

I don't have the C: under "Custom Music Folder" I see my folders and drives. I wonder why that is? 10.4.7 dual G5 2.0

You have to do some maneuvering to get the C: to appear. I don't recall the exact steps, but one of the buttons or options will get it to appear. In our defense, we did kill the blatant appearances. ;)

@Brad: Thanks very much for spending some time here responding to the issues.

I think we all appreciate the effort you have put in, now and in the past, to bring Civilization to the huddled Mac masses. Knowing you are on the case should help to spread confidence that the current problems will be resolved if humanly possible.

What is wrong with fullscreen mode in C3C?
The inability to swap to other applications. I did probably go a bit overboard in the bit you quoted, incidentally - I was very annoyed at the time. Sorry about that.

The inability to swap to other applications.

I think it's a hard sell to claim this is a big problem with the initial C3C, particularly since windowed mode was practically designed with this in mind.

That said, I did fix it so you can switch in and out of fullscreen in the upcoming patch.

You mean switch on the fly rather than having to restart the program? That's terrific.

It's amazing to have a programmer on board here to give and get feedback!

Speaking of switching applications Brad...

There is a key conflict because cmd-tab is used to switch applications and as the command to bring up the log window by Civ IV. Net result is you switch applications rather than being able to access the log window.

(I'll try to log this at Aspyr support as well but... I'm here now and I might get distracted and forget.)

There is a key conflict because cmd-tab is used to switch applications and as the command to bring up the log window by Civ IV. Net result is you switch applications rather than being able to access the log window.

Does it work if you try Cmd-Opt-Tab? (I'm guessing not, but you never know.)

Does it work if you try Cmd-Opt-Tab? (I'm guessing not, but you never know.)
I'll let you know in six hours or so when I next get a chance to try it.

I used Command Tab to minimize the game and move around to other apps... that's a nice feature, although it freezes for a few seconds, and that's always a bit scary.

That Glenda Adams post is pretty patronizing...thanks for informing us, the children who bought your program, basics of computer gaming! We had no idea that turning up the graphics options will cause the game to slow down!

You would be surprised how many people don't know this though, which is why I mentioned it. There are too many users whose first step when starting up a new game is to go to graphics options and turn everything up to max. And then they aren't happy with performance. So we always have to try to get that out of the way first before we dig further into performance complaints. Not patronizing, just reality.

We're working hard on all the issues (sound, kernel panics, performance). None of these issues showed up to the extent they appear to be happening in our testing, so it wasn't like we just figured "what the heck, lets ship the game as-is". It looks like Apple's broken 10.4.7 update is causing a lot of the kernel panic problems (the new ATI drivers that were left out contained significant fixes).

Make sure any send any info you have to Aspyr support, that's the #1 way to get them fixed. We have to wade through all the data (like throwing out performance complaints on below spec machines, concentrating on reproducible crashes, etc) to really find out what is going on.

thanks,
Glenda

What is wrong with fullscreen mode in C3C?

Nothing I can tell. There are issues w/ the F3 screen (but that is in windowed and full screen modes) - sluggish in moving to different selected options/features - like switching from one rival to another, to view their military units.

Load times are excruciating long as well. But, great game.

Does it work if you try Cmd-Opt-Tab? (I'm guessing not, but you never know.)
Nope.

You can get the window by doing a mouse click. So it's not the most annoying problem in the world but it's probably worth putting on a to-do list somewhere.

Yeah, I agree the C: is abhorrent. That is logged as something to be fixed, but it was a lower-priority and we ran out of time for the GM.

Here's another minor request for un-mac-like things to fix:
Options is: cmd-o
Load is:cmd-l

Mac standard would be:
Load: cmd-o
Options: cmd-,

I keep getting the options screen when I want to load a saved game. Perhaps not quite as annoying as a kernel panic, but deeply disturbing in a Twilight Zone kind of way.