Date: Monday, July 10

Patch: 1.1

That's my prediction!

Winner gets a free... um.. thumbs up from this guy:goodjob:

Oy. As much as I'd love to see a patch for the game this soon, I don't think we'll be that lucky. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

I'm still waiting for the C3C sound patches.

Date: Monday, July 10

That would be crazy, so I'm gonna say no. ;)

FWIW, it's looking like 10.4.7 has done us a great deal of harm. Initial reports are that the sound works great in 10.4.6, and that the initial (non-a) release of 10.4.7 causes all the kernel panics and lock-ups.

So if you're hankering for a good Mac Civ4 experience and are not afraid of 10.4.6, that's your best bet until we can work around all this chaos.

Before i reinstall my system back down to 10.4.6 on my iMac G5 2.0g radeon9600 128mb - would it speed up the game overall or will it just fix the sound? The speed seems a little slow with all gfx in low but this could just be how it is on my mac.

Check the thread below this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176560) for Brad's understanding on what 10.4.7 did for performance as well as sound and stability

Before i reinstall my system back down to 10.4.6 on my iMac G5 2.0g radeon9600 128mb - would it speed up the game overall or will it just fix the sound? The speed seems a little slow with all gfx in low but this could just be how it is on my mac.

I would hold off doing that. It seems that a version earlier than 10.4.6 may be better, but we still don't know.

Patch: Monday, July 17 (after much wailing and gnashing of teeth in Userland and Aspyr alike).

Prediction: Tuesday, July 25, 2006.

These things gotta be tested after all...

The game apparently wasn't tested ....

Aspyr should just hurry up and go out of business. Apple should hurry up and get some decent hardware for what they are charging. There is no reason mac users pay upwards of $1600 to get a slideshow, whereas I and virtually everyone else can run it on a $1000 windows PC flawlessly.

I'm surprised you people haven't laughed Brad out of these forums for relying on you all to test his game for him.

Although I'm very dissapointed with the bad performance, I'm glad Brad is making an attempt to fix these problems... I feeling the game was rushed out.

The game apparently wasn't tested ....

Aspyr should just hurry up and go out of business. Apple should hurry up and get some decent hardware for what they are charging. There is no reason mac users pay upwards of $1600 to get a slideshow, whereas I and virtually everyone else can run it on a $1000 windows PC flawlessly.

I'm surprised you people haven't laughed Brad out of these forums for relying on you all to test his game for him.

You are the :king: of Trolls.

The game apparently wasn't tested ....

Aspyr should just hurry up and go out of business. Apple should hurry up and get some decent hardware for what they are charging. There is no reason mac users pay upwards of $1600 to get a slideshow, whereas I and virtually everyone else can run it on a $1000 windows PC flawlessly.

I'm surprised you people haven't laughed Brad out of these forums for relying on you all to test his game for him.

Are you the same Wiglaf who pops up on occasion at Apolyton and, invariably, is ignored, flamed or laughed off into lurkerdom?

Gatekeeper

That would be crazy, so I'm gonna say no. ;)

FWIW, it's looking like 10.4.7 has done us a great deal of harm. Initial reports are that the sound works great in 10.4.6, and that the initial (non-a) release of 10.4.7 causes all the kernel panics and lock-ups.

So if you're hankering for a good Mac Civ4 experience and are not afraid of 10.4.6, that's your best bet until we can work around all this chaos.

I had the same sound issues in both 10.4.6 and 10.4.7 on my first generation iMac G5 1.8 Ghz

The game apparently wasn't tested ....

Aspyr should just hurry up and go out of business. Apple should hurry up and get some decent hardware for what they are charging. There is no reason mac users pay upwards of $1600 to get a slideshow, whereas I and virtually everyone else can run it on a $1000 windows PC flawlessly.

I'm surprised you people haven't laughed Brad out of these forums for relying on you all to test his game for him.I think you've got a biased sample. You're talking about one product which was released and we're hearing from some people who are having problems. We don't even know how many people may be affected, and you therefore conclude that the game wasn't tested?

Your second comment about apple hardware is misleading. You do not note that Civ IV is not representative of other games out there, and that many PC users out there, especially with ATI cards had or still have issues running it themselves.

The third comment appears to be fallacious. Because the game is not working for some number of people (we don't know how many) the game must be flawed, and Brad who is just one employee at Aspyr should be laughed at?

Also, I don't follow the logical reasoning behind not submitting trouble to Aspyr. You also make it seem that they should be held responsible to test every configuration. Do you think Firaxis had much better luck? There are thousands upon thousands of different PC hardware configurations out there, and there were many problems on the PC side too. As far as testing, do you think Aspyr is relying just on a few people on this particular forum to test their game? I doubt it.

The third comment appears to be fallacious...
I know it's tempting to gut the reasoning of his post but don't bother. He doesn't care about content of responses, only that people wasted time to write responses. Probably didn't get enough love as a child (which is unfortunate, since his apparent intelligence is bested by the average 9-year-old).

Or, put simply: don't feed the trolls.

Prediction - Tuesday August 1st

They're going to want to get it right the second time. ;)

(Hope I'm wrong and it's sooner, of course, but it's never that simple.)

Saturday, July 15th, 2006.

Last week of July - 24-28 July

Then mid-September to fix all the things left unfixed or that the patch broke.

Then early 2007 to fix all the things the fix of the fix broke and deal with 10.5 (or 10.4.8 and 10.4.9).

Last week of July - 24-28 July

Then mid-September to fix all the things left unfixed or that the patch broke.

Then early 2007 to fix all the things the fix of the fix broke and deal with 10.5 (or 10.4.8 and 10.4.9).

It's not a job, Brad, it's a career.

It's not a job, Brad, it's a career.
I think that's what he's aiming for...

He doesn't care about content of responses, only that people wasted time to write responses. Probably didn't get enough love as a child (which is unfortunate, since his apparent intelligence is bested by the average 9-year-old).

Or, put simply: don't feed the trolls.

I actually was loved as a child and am quite intelligent, especially with respect to 9 year olds (if you want to get into specifics, big boy, I guess we can post credentials / college degrees /etc) ;)

Your second comment about apple hardware is misleading. You do not note that Civ IV is not representative of other games out there, and that many PC users out there, especially with ATI cards had or still have issues running it themselves.

Find me a mac that has hardware superior to that of the following dell laptop currently retailing for $1400:

1.83 Ghz Core Duo
1 GB RAM
256 MB X1400 graphics chip
15.4 inch screen

I swear to god it'll run to $2500. Or somewhere close.

The hardware is an absolute ripoff at Apple. And for all the "Apple is great for graphics" crap I hear, it's remarkable you can't update your cards without paying 2-3x what you would for a PC equivalent.

It's also amusing that you are claiming Civ4-Mac does not have serious playability issues. Come on.

I actually was loved as a child and am quite intelligent, especially with respect to 9 year olds (if you want to get into specifics, big boy, I guess we can post credentials / college degrees /etc) ;)
Sorry, but we haven't seen any evidence of your alleged intelligence. Gonna have to give round two to the 9 year olds as well.

Feel free to post your cred, though. I'm sure we'll all be very impressed (though we may think less of your alma mater once we know who to blame). :lol:

EDIT: Sorry, I broke the rule. I fed the troll.

The hardware is an absolute ripoff at Apple. And for all the "Apple is great for graphics" crap I hear, it's remarkable you can't update your cards without paying 2-3x what you would for a PC equivalent.



You have to look at more than just the specs. Sure, you can probably get an ugly dell that has better specs than a Mac for the same price, but you neglect everything else––the unparalleled user experience, (right down to the gorgeous packaging) the design, backlit keyboards, MagSafe, Mac OS X, iLife, etc. You pay for all of that. All the reasons mac users buy macs.

If you want to just look at specs, the closest mac to that Dell that you mention is a 15.4' MacBook Pro that costs $2100. Not "$2500". It's 2 ghz, and it comes with a superdrive and a Radeon X1600. Macs are not as outrageously expensive as you might think.

And Macs aren't great for graphics because of their graphics cards (which is apple's weak point in their hardware). It's the OS.

I think XP offers a great user experience. It is a less colorful OS, and admittedly one that is lacking some neat features like Expose or integrated widgets and some cool programs like Garageband. But then again, it is a 2001 operating system ; Vista will correct many of these shortcomings. And I do not think that those features are worth the $600-750 price difference, especially since you must accept the following downsides:

1) severely limited software catalogue
2) severely limited hardware and hardware upgrade options

If apple could find a way to not overcharge you for its operating system (since the hardware just can't be that expensive) then it might be more competitive...especially with Bootcamp.

I think XP offers a great user experience.

http://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/wand.gif

So here is my advice to you: Go out there an buy youself a windows XP PC and be happy! And don't come back to this place as you're just boring.
I have heard all those Mac bashing words 2 years ago, 10 years ago 15 years ago. It's still the same everytime. And guess what: Apple is still alive.

I couldn't agree more...

When Micrsoft users were young their hearts were open books
they used to say live and let live
But if this utterly unchanging OS world in which they live in
makes them break down and cry...

They come and bash some mac/linux/any other OS ever made users.

So what does it matter to ya
When you gotta a job to do
You gotta do it well
But really, no need to give the other fella hell.

My advice to fanboys on either team.

a) Get out
b) Get laid
c) Build a bridge
d) Get over aforementioned bridge

I've got XP but I don't use it, I use Civ 4. Something most mac users won't be doing to an acceptable standard anytime soon :/

@vilemerchant: First and final warning for spamming and trolling. If you don't have anything useful to contribute to this discussion go somewhere else or risk a forum vacation.

Ok buddy. I'm not entirely sure what you think spamming is, but i'll stay away from your precious mac threads from now on.

I couldn't agree more...

When Micrsoft users were young their hearts were open books
they used to say live and let live
But if this utterly unchanging OS world in which they live in
makes them break down and cry...

They come and bash some mac/linux/any other OS ever made users.

So what does it matter to ya
When you gotta a job to do
You gotta do it well
But really, no need to give the other fella hell.

My advice to fanboys on either team.

a) Get out
b) Get laid
c) Build a bridge
d) Get over aforementioned bridge


I have to say, that is one of the most nonsensical posts and/or song adaptation I have ever read in my life.

http://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/wand.gif

So here is my advice to you: Go out there an buy youself a windows XP PC and be happy! And don't come back to this place as you're just boring.
I have heard all those Mac bashing words 2 years ago, 10 years ago 15 years ago. It's still the same everytime. And guess what: Apple is still alive.

Well I'm not trying to bash Macs, just point out their obvious shortcomings. I am just wondering what it is that you see in them.

Well I'm not trying to bash Macs, just point out their obvious shortcomings. I am just wondering what it is that you see in them.

Well it comes already five years packed with an OS that is even more advanced as Vista. :D

I think XP offers a great user experience. It is a less colorful OS, and admittedly one that is lacking some neat features like Expose or integrated widgets and some cool programs like Garageband. But then again, it is a 2001 operating system ; Vista will correct many of these shortcomings.

I think you neglect the fact that OSX is also a 2001 OS :D

The Vista you will get is the OSX we got in 2001. And like you just said XP misses all the fun. I remember my PC days as long hunts for usefull software. The limited software availability is actually a good thing for mac. You will find a whole less rubbish software. Because the choice is limited it's much more easy to spot the top software you need. Look at it as with computers there is also a very limitied choice in the stores. You got rubbish PC's that you can identify by a sticker saying it's developped for windows and you have the quality computers who you can identify by their Apple logo. Limited choice is much easier for me to buy stuff. :cool:

Except for games like Civ 4...;)

I personally love Spotlight- the OSX search feature. It is great for downloaded .pdfs that have funny names and end up in some random download folder.

Also just have to give my personal testimonial about stability. I was doing some intense sound recording this spring- huge amounts of data, 24 audio channels, up to 20gb or so/day, at times without the hardware correctly configured, in freezing, dusty conditions. I think the g4 powerbook I was using only crashed maybe 2 or 3 times in 250 hours or so of recording, and those were when I accidentally knocked out the usb cable to the external hard drive. In the mean time, at least 3 of the PC laptops had major problems, and they weren't even taken outside.

To sort of put this back on topic, I've just got to say that I'm confident that Civ4 will get ironed out in terms of sound issues and CPU... My guess is an early September patch- that will take care of the big issues but might miss some minor gameplay features.

man, why do some people always seem to believe that with buying a certain system they were signing some sort of life-long promotion contract for it?

If you (wiglaff) think that XP is much better than OS X than it's fine - go on and be happy. Same thing we Mac users are going to do..

(von Tirpitz, who just switched from XP about 1 1/2 years ago)

man, why do some people always seem to believe that with buying a certain system they were signing some sort of life-long promotion contract for it?

If you (wiglaff) think that XP is much better than OS X than it's fine - go on and be happy. Same thing we Mac users are going to do..

(von Tirpitz, who just switched from XP about 1 1/2 years ago)

This is useful because I am learning something, believe it or not I do not own a macintosh and have not used one since the early G4s.

My guess is an early September patch- that will take care of the big issues but might miss some minor gameplay features.

September? You got to be kidding me! A product with bugs like Civ4 for mac shouldn't be sold to people for two month's like this. There must be a law against such. The product should be taken out of shelfs if a patch would take that long.

This is useful because I am learning something, believe it or not I do not own a macintosh and have not used one since the early G4s.

No way? :eek:

All people talking like you haven't seen a mac in ages. People that have used it recently don't use your excuses anymore. Only excuse they use is price! And still for my opinion macs are cheaper!

I think he may not have seen one for ages.

I have an early G4, though as it's a Sawtooth, it's not as old as the first Yosemite G4s. It's seven years old, and it came with OS 9, and I ran 10.0 as a beta on it.

No way? :eek:

All people talking like you haven't seen a mac in ages. People that have used it recently don't use your excuses anymore. Only excuse they use is price! And still for my opinion macs are cheaper!

Price and hardware. It boggles my mind that macs are shipping with the hardware they are at such high prices. Software comptability is another issue I couldn't get over at work, and it'd be a hassle for personal use (see Civ 4)

Vista is also looking to match OSX in terms of usability. Hardcore OSX users who love the interface might want to look at Vista.

Price and hardware. It boggles my mind that macs are shipping with the hardware they are at such high prices.

People pay more for a ferrari than they do for a skoda. People pay more for a pair of calvin klein jeans than they do for levi's. People pay more for an iPod than for the equivalent creative.

<shrug> I'm quite happy with PCs, but you've got to realise that price isn't everything to everybody.

Price and hardware. It boggles my mind that macs are shipping with the hardware they are at such high prices. Software comptability is another issue I couldn't get over at work, and it'd be a hassle for personal use (see Civ 4)

Vista is also looking to match OSX in terms of usability. Hardcore OSX users who love the interface might want to look at Vista.

You might go and have a look at the macs nowaddays. A mac mini is about 100$ cheaper as his counterpart of AOpen with the same specs. Actually now is the time to compare prices as Macs have intel on board. You will suprised.

Ofcourse a non brand PC will be cheaper but Apple is a brand so you should compare to brands.

Wich software compatibility issues? Like you said you haven't used macs for ages.

Civ4 is a bad port. This is the first time in five years ive encounterd something like what i can compare to the OS level of your PC. Civ4 is as buggy as XP when it came out. I hope Aspyr will be more faster to respond because it took MS a long time to get XP to service pack 2. The serive pack that made XP "good enough". And sorry your comment about mac users to look at the interface? Been there done that, for years already.
The sensation you feel with Vista is for me a long time memory.

And does Civ4 work fine on Vista? any news on that?

Vista is also looking to match OSX in terms of usability. Hardcore OSX users who love the interface might want to look at Vista.

I doubt it. I don't need four dialog boxes to confirm that I want to delete a shortcut. By the time Vista is released I'll be running Leopard - OS X 10.5.

This is useful because I am learning something, believe it or not I do not own a macintosh and have not used one since the early G4s.

Why do you even peruse this forum??

We even forgot to mention that Vista is a total rip off of OSX so what is this PC dude barking about?

Four dialogue boxes to delete a shortcut in Vista? Please explain AlanH...

We even forgot to mention that Vista is a total rip off of OSX so what is this PC dude barking about?

I don't really understand this. Right now, on XP, I can search with Google Desktop as well as you can with Spotlight (or whatever they call it). I can use widgets that were created long before OS X hit store shelves. I can download phony Docks and pretend like I'm in lala land with a number of freely downloadable XP themes.

And I can run all software on the market...I can update video cards...and the technology in my computer is probably much faster (and certainly more affordable) than yours.

All Vista will do is incorporate some of those technologies into the OS, add a sleeker interface (wholly different from OSX) and more features (www.windowsvista.com).

If you are going to paint Microsoft as the arch-villain, stealing all of Macs ideas, go ahead (it's more than a little fallacious, and it's not a reason to hate an OS anyway). But instead of claiming that I have the intelligence of a 9-year old, implying I am a dog and talking about how prettily your Mac is packaged (or how its powercord is magnetized....) , it would be nice to hear a reason to use a Mac. Aside from sound-editing.

Four dialogue boxes to delete a shortcut in Vista? Please explain AlanH...

I don't really understand this. Right now, on XP, I can search with Google Desktop as well as you can with Spotlight (or whatever they call it).

talking about how prettily your Mac is packaged (or how its powercord is magnetized....) , it would be nice to hear a reason to use a Mac. Aside from sound-editing.

Google desktop ...? Sounds like another Mircrosoft clone that just doesn't get it. Seriously, Unless Microsoft continues to pay you overtime once you clock out you should stop pushing your wears on us. You'll find no converts here.

Google desktop is not a Microsoft clone. It is made by Google (hence "Google Desktop").

No, you, wiglaff are the Microsoft clone. Trotting along in a bleak world of mediocrity.

Four dialogue boxes to delete a shortcut in Vista? Please explain AlanH...


He was being sarcastic. But it's not too off the mark.

You right-click on it and hit "Delete." You confirm. That is one box.

Four dialogue boxes to delete a shortcut in Vista? Please explain AlanH...He was being sarcastic. But it's not too off the mark.No, it's true. It was posted on a Flickr account from a beta tester. Truly amazing.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=151250154&size=o

If you are going to paint Microsoft as the arch-villain, stealing all of Macs ideas, go ahead (it's more than a little fallacious, and it's not a reason to hate an OS anyway).I agree. Microsoft is not an arch-villain. Anyone who still thinks so - get over it. Who cares. And exactly - why bother "hating" another OS? Apple doesn't have villains anyway.

But instead of claiming that I have the intelligence of a 9-year old, implying I am a dog and talking about how prettily your Mac is packaged (or how its powercord is magnetized....) , it would be nice to hear a reason to use a Mac. Aside from sound-editing.Rightly said. It was uncalled for for people to insult you like that. We're civilized here, and mostly adults. Some people need to grow up still, apparently.

I would gladly share with you the reasons why I like the Macintosh platform. I'm not sure why we're talking about this in the "predict-the-patch" topic, (hehe) but okay.


This is what I like about the Mac:


Support. Apple has the best support in the industry. Consumer reports has consistently rated Apple #1 among PC manufacturers in customer support over the phone, online, and in person. And the iMac has the best record among all PCs for repairs. (Source: Consumer Reports, December; MacWorld, December (http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/12/08/consumer/index.php))

Quality. Macs are a few of the quietest running and almost undisputably the best designed computers on the market. Problems are fewer and they last longer. And they don't take up the entire desk. Why aren't all notebooks an inch thick? (Design That Turns Heads (http://www.apple.com/getamac/design.html); sources are out there for the first part - sorry I don't have one right now.)

Things work. System crashes don't happen anywhere near as frequently as they do on other systems. Part of the reason is because built on UNIX, and the OS X code doesn't contain legacy code from the 80's like Windows does. You also don't have to worry about installing and updating drivers for things to work. The 'Add Hardware' wizard? Who needs that? Plus the UI makes sense and is easier to navigate. A good example of making use of Fitt's Law with the menu bar always at the top and the dock at the bottom. And the things that should work do work. Like wireless networks. Or printing. (Source: It Just Works (http://www.apple.com/getamac/works.html); Adherence to Fitt's Law (http://www.xvsxp.com/interface/fittslaw.php))

Security. Viruses and spyware do not happen. Mac OS X is a secure operating system, and virus writers have more fun writing their work for the PCs. The operating system has a built-in firewall - I don't think most Mac users even turn it on (I don't). (Source: Not on a Mac (http://www.apple.com/getamac/viruses.html); Mac OS X Security (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/security/))

iLife. You cannot find anything close to a suite of applications which allow you to mix music, photos, and video - that work together - on the PC. Anything this powerful would end up costing you a lot of extra money - the PC equivalent of GarageBand alone would be $100 or more. Photos, videos, DVDs, music and web sites without having to read manuals or install anything, and it's damn simple to use. Want the latest version? $79 gets you the entire suite. (Source: iLife (http://www.apple.com/ilife))

Windows. Well, you can do it. If you want. And even at native speed. (Source: Run Windows (http://www.apple.com/getamac/windows.html); Boot Camp (http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/))


As for money, you pay a little more up front with a Mac. However, $1299 gets you a very nice iMac. Add a stick of RAM and you have a machine that can run most anything out there. It's fully capable of running Final Cut Pro, the same software that the show 24 is cut with. Or Scrubs. Or a whole slew of movies like Napoleon Dynamite, for example, and plenty more out there.

But factor in the price of maintenance, like keeping your anti-virus software up-to-date, handling repairs and seeking customer support, and that extra money you pay up front for a Mac is often way cheaper.

And yes, the Mac is not a great gaming machine. If playing games is a top priority for you on your computer, you wouldn't buy a Mac. Simple enough. I mean, it's good, it can do many games just fine. But no, in comparison to a gaming PC or console, it's not that great at all. If you want really great games, buy a PlayStation or XBox. Or that Wii for Christmas.

No, it's true. It was posted on a Flickr account from a beta tester. Truly amazing.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=151250154&size=o


:lol: Wow. That's beautiful. I'm bookmarking that sucker. A classic. It may still be a beta, but still. That's just unbelievable.

I am just wondering what it is that you see in them.
For me Macs are my chosen system for over one and a half decade now,
that is all you need to know.

As someone said: there are pros and cons for both of them: XP and OS X
Thats all.

All I say here is that for me it is truly boring beeing recurring confronted with this sort of Mac vs. Window discussion.

Do use the system of your choice and be happy!
I'm using my Mac and I am happy!

That's all folk,
now draw the curtain please.

I hate people with high morals playing domination games ;)

You people are on a game forum! The clash between civilizations. Don't come and tell me you guys wait till you build the UN to actually get some action in Civ4 or what?

The barbarians are invading our territory and we are striking back with Future Tech! Ok it's not fair but it's fun!

Grow up? Never! :lol:

Four dialogue boxes to delete a shortcut in Vista? Please explain AlanH...
Sorry, I was wrong. Memory plays tricks as you get to my age.

As posted above, it's six (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=151250154&size=o), not four

As my 'nonsensical' song adaptation said - live and let live.

I've never understood this pointless debate.

You pay your money, you take your pick.

Got Civ IV last night for Mac - stable but no sound effects; that's the only issue. Will play my music and game music. Am i bovvered? Do I look bovvered? No is the answer.

ancestral, thanks for the great post. I appreciate it a lot.

No, it's true. It was posted on a Flickr account from a beta tester. Truly amazing.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=151250154&size=o


It's a beta ;)


Support.

Just for record, Dell's is excellent here, I have had no problems with them. (see www.instapundit.com : June 27, 2006

DELL NON-HELL: The Dell Laptop was dead as a doornail tonight. Wouldn't boot, even in safe mode, producing a stop code and an "Unmountable Boot Device" error message. Called Dell Support, expecting it to be a bad hard drive. Waited more-or-less patiently as they got me to insert the recovery disk and run some diagnostics, and a nice man from Mumbai named (I think) Raktish helped me repair the bad boot sector and then noticed my computer was booting too slowly and took remote control and cleaned up some junk that was slowing things down. Total elapsed time (including about 8 minutes on hold at the beginning): less than an hour. Seems to be working fine now.)


Quality. Macs are a few of the quietest running and almost undisputably the best designed computers on the market. Problems are fewer and they last longer. And they don't take up the entire desk. Why aren't all notebooks an inch thick?

Apple underclocks its Macbook video cards to make them produce less heat. This troubles me. But design is obviously in their favor.


Things work. System crashes don't happen anywhere near as frequently as they do on other systems.

Depends on what you do. For me XP has never crashed, but obviously both will break depending on how hard you push them. But anyway, I am curious about what you say about "who needs the Add hardware wizard." True plug and play does exist in windows; over the past week I have installed a USB joystick and wireless optical mouse just by plugging them in.

What does OSX have here that XP doesn't?


Security. Viruses and spyware do not happen. Mac OS X is a secure operating system, and virus writers have more fun writing their work for the PCs. The operating system has a built-in firewall - I don't think most Mac users even turn it on (I don't).

This is true, though a product more of apple's marketshare than its design.


iLife. You cannot find anything close to a suite of applications which allow you to mix music, photos, and video - that work together - on the PC. Anything this powerful would end up costing you a lot of extra money - the PC equivalent of GarageBand alone would be $100 or more. Photos, videos, DVDs, music and web sites without having to read manuals or install anything, and it's damn simple to use. Want the latest version? $79 gets you the entire suite.

Do you regularly use Garageband?

As for money, you pay a little more up front with a Mac. However, $1299 gets you a very nice iMac. Add a stick of RAM and you have a machine that can run most anything out there. It's fully capable of running Final Cut Pro, the same software that the show 24 is cut with. Or Scrubs. Or a whole slew of movies like Napoleon Dynamite, for example, and plenty more out there.

I can see video editors or sound editors picking mac. Out of curiosity are you a film maker?

But factor in the price of maintenance, like keeping your anti-virus software up-to-date, handling repairs and seeking customer support, and that extra money you pay up front for a Mac is often way cheaper.

I don't have anti virus software and have never needed repairs ;)

ancestral, thanks for the great post. I appreciate it a lot.You're welcome.

Just for record, Dell's is excellent here, I have had no problems with them. (see www.instapundit.com : June 27, 2006Dell has good support. I think they're tied for #2. (Sounds like they've got a large center over in India.) Apple is far and away #1 from CR and guys like Walt Mossberg from The Wall Street Journal will attest to that. Honestly having the retail stores around helps considerably. The Genius Bar is free technical support, and ProCare gets you one-on-one training on pretty much anything about your computer. I'm confident there is nothing like this at any electronics store in the world. Nothing.

Apple underclocks its Macbook video cards to make them produce less heat. This troubles me. But design is obviously in their favor.It's a notebook. Those suckers can get really hot as it is.

... But anyway, I am curious about what you say about "who needs the Add hardware wizard." True plug and play does exist in windows; over the past week I have installed a USB joystick and wireless optical mouse just by plugging them in.Can't tell you how many times I've had people have problems with their CD-ROM, wireless mouse, and other devices. The recommended path is to go to the Hardware wizard, remove, restart, hopefully it recognizes and works. If not, maybe you have to install drivers...

You know, hard drives crashing seems to happen to many of my PC friends. I don't understand this. Why would hard drives be so fragile? I don't recall ever having a hard drive crash of mine on the Mac.

What does OSX have here that XP doesn't?Spotlight is very fast. I haven't used Google Desktop, but I assure you, Spotlight finds things very quickly, and you can access all sorts of metadata from picture size to EXIF data. (Spotlight (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/spotlight/))

Exposé lets you see all the windows on your computer when you press a button. Very powerful window management tool. (Exposé (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/))

PDF support is integrated. You can make a PDF from anything without buying a distiller or trying to install GhostScript. (PDF (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/pdf/))

Migration Assistant allows you to pick and choose files to move from an old computer to a new one over a Firewire connection.

Free developer tools. Perl, Python, Ruby, Java, GCC - just a few tools that are installed by default. Built-in terminal and X-Window support giving you the ability to run UNIX programs and use the command line interface. Interface Builder is probably the quickest and easiest way to make a graphical interface for an application, and often without having to add much programming at all.

This is true, though a product more of apple's marketshare than its design.I think most people don't know about the OS X security. BSD is one of the most secure operating systems in existence, and OS X is pretty much built atop of FreeBSD. Honestly, just the fact that the other pieces of the operating system were written about 7 years ago is a testament to its safety. The reason that Windows is so exploitable is because of old code. Vista is a re-write and may solve many issues.

Do you regularly use Garageband?No, not every day. (I do use iTunes and iPhoto probably every day though.) Maybe once a week for fun. But I did make this (http://www.mproud.com/zephyr/Downloads/E032039D-45CC-4E41-BF50-A94C1F76D278.html). That whole mini-site was done with iWeb too.

I can see video editors or sound editors picking mac. Out of curiosity are you a film maker?No, but I know a lot about the software they use. It sounds like fun, to get into video production, but I'm more interested in using web technologies than using video.

I don't have anti virus software and have never needed repairs ;)Really? May I ask, how do you keep clean from all that garbage? Do you run a spyware sweeper? I think people who get viruses are mostly opening or downloading things they shouldn't, but there's still a lot of cruft that can get through. I'm curious to know how you stay clean.

A few unrelated observations-

While I love the powerbooks- they are *TOO* thin. I've had keyboard/screen etching problems with both of mine. Somehow I always loose the little foam sheet that you're supposed to keep inbetween there...

I don't know if google desktop can search text in .pdfs- but this makes Spotlight a HUGE timesaver for me. I download hundreds of .pdf journal articles in a year, and they always come out with completely non-referential, 30 character names and end up in different places on my HD depending on whether I got them from Safari, save through acrobat, or from email. I can search these based on their content and pull up anything relating to a subject without remembering the title or who wrote the article.

XP may have somthing like this, but Automator is pretty freakin great. I used this extensively this spring. Digital Performer creates these nonsensical audio file names that I had to rename in specific ways to pass on to later sound analysis programs. I could batch rename with incremental numbers really easily with a simple workflow. I know you can make macros on windows machines, but I can't imagine it can be as flexible and intuitive as Automator.

In terms of the hardware wizard-type issues... we had to install external HD's for both macs and pc's this spring. For the mac- installation meant, um, plugging it in. For the PC- I had to read the instruction manual to figure out what I was supposed to do.

I'll also say that in my maybe not so random sample of watching people at a couple of universities, networking, printing, and compatability were superior on the mac. About every 4th seminar someone's PC wouldn't work with the projector- the only problem macs ever had was when someone didn't have their dongle for the ibooks/powerbooks to hook up with the video cable, and we had to run and borrow someones. Finding printers and getting on LAN's and wireless were virtually problem free, but I frequently had to try to help some get their pc networked...

networking, printing, and compatability were superior on the mac
I do network and general IT support work for a local charity. It's wall-to-wall XP on two LANs with a combined total of about 35 PCs, but I've been trialling adding a MacOS X server running on a Mac Mini, with a view to doing some inter-site networking.

Recently we bought a standalone ethernet networked HP printer and plugged it into the LAN. After about 30 minutes of kicking and cussing and trial and error I managed to get an XP system to print a test page, and decommissioned the previous networked printer.

Later the same day I fired up the Mac Mini and needed to print some reference info I'd picked up on the web. Without any action on my part, I found that the new HP printer was already an option in the Mac's Print dialog, selected it and printed. It "just worked".

...Without any action on my part, I found that the new HP printer was already an option in the Mac's Print dialog, selected it and printed. It "just worked".
Almost painfully fun, isn't it?

I bring my laptop in to one of my occasional gigs and jump on their wireless for the downtime. No sweat there. At one point, I needed to print off a local HP printer. Found it navigating on my – through one of XP stations – chose it and printed. Only caveat: no model driver. However, choosing (IIRC) an HP 900-something and it printed just as built.

Nice!

I don't have anti virus software and have never needed repairs ;)
Do you have a firewall? Do you keep your OS updated with windows update?

If you don't have anti-virus software, then its very likely that you have a number of viruses that you don't even know about.

A while back, I reformatted my hard drive and reinstalled XP Pro (SP1). I hadn't installed the firewall, and went on the internet to download it. I then downloaded the antivirus software. Guess what? I had about a dozen trojans infesting my newly-reformatted system - after being connected to the internet for only 10 minutes, and only going to two websites.

SP2 fixed many of these issues - but connecting an XP machine to the internet without a firewall and/or antivirus is almost guaranteed to get you infected.

Thanks everyone for the very informative posts (and the garageband song, which was neat).

My concern with Macs is mostly with the hardware, but I'm glad to learn that the operating system is more competent than XP. It is difficult for me to respond to the XP horror stories ("hardware was never recognized" or "ten viruses in two minutes") because I have had no such experiences in 5 years of using XP on six different machines. But if they have happened to you on pcs, and have not occured on macs, then I understand your concern.

When Vista comes out, more direct comparisons will be possible between the two OS's. Hopefully it'll be one click to delete a shortcut, as it is now on XP ;)

Really? May I ask, how do you keep clean from all that garbage? Do you run a spyware sweeper? I think people who get viruses are mostly opening or downloading things they shouldn't, but there's still a lot of cruft that can get through. I'm curious to know how you stay clean.

Hm. I use the Windows firewall on SP2 with Firefox and occassionally (once a month) Adaware, which removes spyware. It still hasn't found anything that could compromise the system. Usually it picks up cookies or trackers. Admittedly I know a couple people who have been affected by viruses, but as you said they usually are the ones downloading haphazardly.


I don't know if google desktop can search text in .pdfs- but this makes Spotlight a HUGE timesaver for me. I download hundreds of .pdf journal articles in a year, and they always come out with completely non-referential, 30 character names and end up in different places on my HD depending on whether I got them from Safari, save through acrobat, or from email. I can search these based on their content and pull up anything relating to a subject without remembering the title or who wrote the article.

Google Desktop does indeed search PDFs. Its interface is identical to the internet search, so it's not quite as pretty to look at. But you can place it on the taskbar so it's just as accessable as Spotlight. Some of these advanced features that Spotlight appears to have (such as the type of resolution in a photo or whatever) are not available, but honestly I wouldn't use them anyway.

Depends on what you do. For me XP has never crashed, but obviously both will break depending on how hard you push them. But anyway, I am curious about what you say about "who needs the Add hardware wizard." True plug and play does exist in windows; over the past week I have installed a USB joystick and wireless optical mouse just by plugging them in.


Wow, amazing!!!! NOT.

Now try that with a camera, a moble phone, a printer, ...

At my college they use Samba windows printing, and only that, since they collect printing information through it. You can setup a Samba printer in Mac OS X, but need the password. But since the printer passwords could change every month or so, I had to run a script to create them on the fly, in the lab environment. We used to use PAS Controller, though I think the company who made it was bought out and who knows where that product is.

It was a headache, and although I think having a box running OS X Server or using Apple Remote Desktop would help with maintaining the lab environment, for my small school, as a student, I knew more about this than anyone else, and there were some situations where stuff happened and I had to fervently find my own answers or give up.

I quickly found out people don't bother doing any extra research necessary for anything. I think often there are solutions but it just takes a little time to find them and time to test them too.

Wow, amazing!!!! NOT.

Now try that with a camera, a moble phone, a printer, ...

Cameres work fine, especially if you use the included software. It works okay without software too.

Printers in my experience require an install CD and you're set. I'm not sure what the deal is here. ?

Printers in my experience require an install CD and you're set. I'm not sure what the deal is here. ?
My situation was a networked printer, not attached to a specific computer.

- XP required an installation disk to be run. OS X needed none.
- I had to work out what IP address the printer had invented for itself, and then fight my way through the printer setup wizard to explain to XP where to find the printer and how to talk to it. OS X just found it and configured itself to use it.
- There was a complicated Java/Tomcat utility to install for communicating with the printer to define its settings. This crashed XP to a BSoD the first time I ran it, and I never did get it to work on that PC. It "just worked" on the Mac.

This may be a rogue example from HP, but those are the events that stick in your memory, and I don't have comparable nightmares about my Mac.

My situation was a networked printer, not attached to a specific computer.

- XP required an installation disk to be run. OS X needed none.
- I had to work out what IP address the printer had invented for itself, and then fight my way through the printer setup wizard to explain to XP where to find the printer and how to talk to it. OS X just found it and configured itself to use it.
- There was a complicated Java/Tomcat utility to install for communicating with the printer to define its settings. This crashed XP to a BSoD the first time I ran it, and I never did get it to work on that PC. It "just worked" on the Mac.

This may be a rogue example from HP, but those are the events that stick in your memory, and I don't have comparable nightmares about my Mac.

Interesting. Well I have never personally networked printers so I can't dispute any of that. Sounds like a big plus for mac, if virtually all of your hardware experiences with them are positive.

Ironically, I just sent an email attachment via gmail and apparently it contained a virus (according to the recipient, but I guess he has no reason to lie..). How odd. Well, anyway if that's a problem on my end it'd be quite suspicious. :eek:

Well, I don't want to get into another Mac vs. Windows fight (and besides, to come into a Mac forum to try to pick fights with Mac users is pretty juvenile), but I will state when i believe the patch will be:

June 13, 2056. That is the thirteenth day of the six hundred sixty-sixth month of the new millenium. It's a Tuesday!

...Ironically, I just sent an email attachment via gmail and apparently it contained a virus...
The Mac crowd has been relatively lucky in regard to viruses... but this is a great opportunity to browbeat my fellow MacHeads on lax security. We've been resting on our laurels (me included).

I don't think we'll ever have the same volume of problems that Windows has simply because we're a smaller crowd –*but the crowd is growing and we can't afford to be lax anymore.

Mac folk: don't take it for granted: start running security software! One evil virus can ruin your whole day.

Well, I don't want to get into another Mac vs. Windows fight (and besides, to come into a Mac forum to try to pick fights with Mac users is pretty juvenile), but I will state when i believe the patch will be:

June 13, 2056. That is the thirteenth day of the six hundred sixty-sixth month of the new millenium. It's a Tuesday!
Aim low, avoid disappointment...?

Ironically, I just sent an email attachment via gmail and apparently it contained a virus (according to the recipient, but I guess he has no reason to lie..). How odd. Well, anyway if that's a problem on my end it'd be quite suspicious. :eek:


The Paranoid world of windows "Am I infected or is Windows just buggy?"

Actually it's a very safe feeling knowing that Mac OSX has no virusses at all so I know 100% when something is buggy when something goes wrong. You for the other hand are now in doubt. :)

apple.com/getamac/ (http://www.apple.com/getamac/)

Well, I don't want to get into another Mac vs. Windows fight (and besides, to come into a Mac forum to try to pick fights with Mac users is pretty juvenile), but I will state when i believe the patch will be:

June 13, 2056. That is the thirteenth day of the six hundred sixty-sixth month of the new millenium. It's a Tuesday!

Why are you using this thread to predict the patch? Don't you know it's a Mac vs Windows thread? ;)

P.S. Still standing by my 1 Aug prediction. It's also a Tuesday.

According to Inside Mac Games, Aspyr released a beta patch today.

So, who had the 14th? ;)

JoAT

I was gonna ask the same thing...

But do we give prediction credit for a beta patch? Half credit?

Tell ya, though: I give double credit to Aspyr for cranking that sucker out before the weekend!

Saturday, July 15th, 2006.

Looks like he won! :goodjob:

Last week of July - 24-28 July
While the beta patch was out earlier - can I have some points for a correct prediction of the actual patch?

(And when I have 100,000 don't you think I won't be trading them in for the set of steak knives.)

Okay, so I did the latest patch available on macgamefiles.com and I now get a startup message that my computer does not meet the minimum specifications. Also the jungle graphics look like they're cut down and just showing stumps. MacBook 2GhZ, 1.25 ram, game still looks playable though.

Okay, so I did the latest patch available on macgamefiles.com and I now get a startup message that my computer does not meet the minimum specifications. Also the jungle graphics look like they're cut down and just showing stumps. MacBook 2GhZ, 1.25 ram, game still looks playable though.

That's right - none of the Intel Macs with integrated graphics meet the minimum specs as they are not a supported card. That said, performance should be a little better on those same Macs now.