System: 10.4.7 / Dual G5 @ 2.3 GHz / 2.5 GB / ATI 9600 (w/128 MB VRAM)

I received this game as a surprise gift from my loving wife, so by the time I find out about it's flaws, I've already attempted to install it three times.

Contacting Aspyr support, I followed their directions to no avail - the game still stopped during start up when trying to init. python. Checking the logs - it seems that python can't find a file. My HD file system is case-sensitive, so on a hunch I install the game onto a disk image with a case-insensitive file system. Lo and behold, that works, but very poorly. The game can't remember options, can't remember video resolutions, 90 second re-init every time I start the game up, choppy video, no sounds, sluggish performance at best.

If Civ 4 does require a case-sensitive file system, a fix to this issue is unlikely at best. Anybody that has useful ideas about getting it running, I'm all ears. HINT: acquiring (beg/borrow/steal/buy) access to another computer, reformatting my HD, and re-installing my OS are not solutions for application level issues.

If I can't get this running, I'm hoping Amazon.com ( where she pre-ordered it ) will allow us to return it, as "Case Insensitive File System" was not listed on the package as a requirement. $50 coasters just don't fit with our decor.

Why do you have a "case sensitive" file system?

I've never even heard of that.

It's uncommon, but exists (UFS). Generally not recommended unless you have very specific reasons to do it, for exactly this reason - the standard Mac file systems are case-insensitive, so quite a few apps assume it. All sorts of things won't work on case-sensitive file systems.

Typically the best course, in those cases where it's necessary, is to partition the drive and have only as much as necessary UFS.

So, if you refuse to use a standard file system, you're basically SOL in this case, and many others. On your own head be it.

Seems like there should be a way around that. I would have a second boot drive for "regular" stuff.

So, if you refuse to use a standard file system, you're basically SOL in this case, and many others. On your own head be it.

Although I wouldn't phrase it exactly like this, it is definitely a standing support rule at Aspyr that none of our games are supported on case-sensitive file systems.

It's uncommon, but exists (UFS).
Just as a point of note, my system is HFS+ with case-sensitivity and journaling.
All sorts of things won't work on case-sensitive file systems.
Civ 4 has been the first one (for me) that hasn't worked, which is what threw me for such a loop. BBEdit, Bang Howdy, Celestia, Civilization III, FileMaker Pro, Firefox, Interarchy, Mailsmith, Excel, PowerPoint, Word, SQLGrinder, Puzzle Pirates, GraphicConverter have all worked. And I haven't run into any Apple app/utility that has issues either. Civilization III, Photoshop, FreeHand, Dreamweaver MX just needed to be put on a case-insensitive partition.
On your own head be it.
You're right. By using a case-sensitive file system, I'm requiring a developer to maintain consistant filename references. Most did, some didn't.
Seems like there should be a way around that.
Normally there is, installing on a case-insensitive partition / disk image. I've only had to do that for 4 out of 100+ apps ( Adobe/Macromedia, I'm looking at you ). So far, Civ 4 has been the only one that had issues that can't be addressed by installing it on my case-insensitive partition.
... it is definitely a standing support rule at Aspyr that none of our games are supported on case-sensitive file systems.
Too bad. Had I more time to tinker, I probably could have restored functionallity with some aliases, or possibly delving into ln / mount.

So at the end of the day, the game was returned. Not the optimal solution - I was looking forward to playing it - but it's one that I can live with.

So far, Civ 4 has been the only one that had issues that can't be addressed by installing it on my case-insensitive partition.

Your home directory is (presumably) still on a case-sensitive partition, and Civ4 references that extensively.

This is a really, really big disappointment. I just opened my birthday present and now I can't play it.

Where in the home directory does it reference? I can at least create symlinks from ~/Library/Whatever to a case sensitive filesystem.

I really, really hope this will be fixed in a patch, since I'm pretty sure that nobody will accept the game for a refund now that I opened it.

Can't you create another user that you log into purely for this situation? You could symlink that user's Home Directory to a case-insensitive volume.

I can identify the following folders in my home directory relating to Civ4, but I'm not sure how you would make symlinks to copies of them since they don't exist until the game runs for the first time.

~/Documents/Civilization IV/
~/Library/Application Support/Civilization IV/

There's also a Preferences file:

~/Library/Preferences/com.aspyr.civ4.plist

.. and it writes its crash logs to:

~/Library/Logs/CrashReporter/Civilization IV.crash.log

~/Documents/Civilization IV/
~/Library/Application Support/Civilization IV/

These locations are going to be the two that are giving problems. The others should be case-sensistive-safe (a phrase I just made up).

Or, rather, the place to which you install the game. So, I made a user named "civ4" with a home directory on an external firewire drive. Already the ease of playing this game has shot way down, especially since this is a laptop.

I can play that game with that user, since I dragged the Civ 4 install folder onto his desktop. It's terribly slow, though, even on my MacBook 2GHz with 2G of RAM. I ran the patch installer, but it said I could install on my laptop hard drive or on my external hard drive. I have no idea whether installing to either of these actually fixes anything or actually applies a patch.

I do know that the game is still very slow after applying it, and has the problem that I thought it would fix: sound and music cut out, excessive delays before turn end.

Does the game need to be installed in /Applications for this patch to work? I know that installing the game under a case-sens Applications fails, even if the user's home is case-insens. Ugh.

I'm not running UFS. I'm running a case-sensitive, journaled extended HFS filesystem. I think I'm going to have to try to return this tomorrow, lest the store think that I've just kept it long enough to copy it.

It's terribly slow, though, even on my MacBook 2GHz with 2G of RAM.

The MacBook is not supported for Civ4, and has some pretty bad video hardware, so this should not be surprising. The list of supported video cards is on the back of the Mac Civ4 box.

Just curious, what is the reason for formatting your drive as case sensitive? Do you have software that requires that functionality?

My MacBook is, like the PowerBook before it, my primary workstation as well as my primary mess-around-station. I use it for my work.

I am a programmer. I write code that runs mostly on UNIX-like operating systems, which are almost entirely case-sensitive. If I always plan to be on a case-sensitive file system, I will not accidentally make a case mismatch. I think it's pretty important to support any user who wants to use my software, so I try to make it easy on myself.

Beyond that, I've been primarily a Linux user for the past eleven years, and case-insensitive file systems can be irritating. They are lossy. I want a computer that stores the information I tell it to store, and that includes exact filenames.

So far, in my four years on OS X, the only other program I've had give me any trouble on a case-sensitive system was Starcraft, which was written for OS 8 or 9.

Beyond that, I've been primarily a Linux user for the past eleven years, and case-insensitive file systems can be irritating. They are lossy. I want a computer that stores the information I tell it to store, and that includes exact filenames.

HFS+ is, by default, a case-preserving but case-insensitive file system. It preserves the case of all your files, but does not let you do foolish things like create a file called "Readme.txt" and "ReadMe.txt" in the same directory. In that regard, I would not call it lossy.

The fact that you think that having "Readme" and "README" as two distinct files is foolish does not change the fact that is has been standard behavior on all important unix operating systems until Darwin.

Yes, well, *nix does a lot of things that are foolish. Mainly as a result of the fact that it was deliberately designed to be impossible to use...

I have been waiting for a Civ IV port to the mac since I heard of Civ IV a year+ ago.

After the PC version came out, and my friends told me of its wonders, I continued to wait patiently. Even though I had a macbook pro, with bootcamp + winxp pro installed, I waited, preferring the thought of running it without rebooting, or worse as in the past, moving to another box.

Now I find myself reading the above in mostly disbelief.

You're developing / porting for a unix platform. Regardless of the pretty gui, this is meant to be Unix. Regardless of the pretty GUI, it's Darwin, branched from FreeBSD. You might have heard of BSD, Berkley, Unix, etc. An oversight like this is one thing, the response is entirely another.

If Apple by design, didn't allow a case sensitive file system, I could see perhaps some argument. But they do. I checked the box, and reformatted just like many other people I know. I took the extra hour to do so and then reinstall OS X. The only other program I've had this problem with was a plugin for Adium. I can hardly blame the Adium developers, and the plugin just ended up not being used.

The unfortunate part of all this, is that after waiting patiently, for a game, that I've liked soooo much, since Civ I, to be ported to the Mac, I will probably be buying the PC version to run under bootcamp and windows when I do eventually buy it.

If you have some beef with how the Unix file systems work, then I suggest you take it up with Apple, and petition them not to provide said option. Until then, I find arguments to not supporting an Apple provided option, irrational.

The fact of the matter is, there's a bug in the software Aspyr has released, for the platform it was released for.

You're developing / porting for a unix platform. R

I think this is the disconnect. Despite the Unix underpinning of OS X, and the fact that you use it more like a Unix distribution than a commercial OS, OS X is not unix. Apple did not intend OS X to be Unix. It's more than a GUI slapped on top of BSD.

We don't port to unix, we port to OS X. We use as much non-unix API functionality (cocoa/carbon) as BSD, if not more. So our goal is to support the best range of OS X features and configurations as we reasonably can. The existence of an optional feature in the OS (supporting case sensitive file systems) is not a requirement to support that feature, particularly when it is a feature that is little used by the majority of users. If you are a developer and case sensitive support is a must have in your products, thats very cool. I can respect that from a programmer's perspective. But for a game company supporting mainstream users (90% of which actually probably don't even know unix is hiding under their OS X, let alone have any inclination to use case sensitive file names) it just doesn't make sense.

I know it is extremely important to you, but I can honestly say the percentage of users who request support for case sensitive file system support in our games is so low as to be almost unmeasurable - out of the combined hundreds of thousands of units sold of OS X games I've been involved with, less than a half dozen requests.

I think we can close the book on this topic. We have no plans to add case sensitive file system support to Civ 4 or any other Aspyr game. It's a far from non-trivial task, and just doesn't make sense for us to focus our resources on when there are other features that will effect a much broader range of users.

Glenda
Aspyr

I think we can close the book on this topic. We have no plans to add case sensitive file system support to Civ 4 or any other Aspyr game. It's a far from non-trivial task, and just doesn't make sense for us to focus our resources on when there are other features that will effect a much broader range of users.

Glenda, Thanks for your response. From a business perspective where the prime motivation is profit I can understand your perspective, and why you have to pick and choose your battles. It would be nice if the system requirements on the box might indicate Aspyr's unwillingness to support these options though. In the same way the tell you which hardware options apple offers are not supported.

I also wonder how non-trivial it would be to make sure that the file names you ask your program to make, are formatted the same way when you read from them. I would guess this could easily be spearheaded by grep. Of course I must concede I know nothing of the source, and could be way off base.

My highly speculative guess is that the parts of the software that fail on a case sensitive system are in the code that Aspyr inherited from Firaxis, rather than the parts that Aspyr created themselves.

Windows seems to be less picky about these things generally. I've found mods with XML that contains high-value ascii characters that break the Mac version but presumably work OK in Windows.

My highly speculative guess is that the parts of the software that fail on a case sensitive system are in the code that Aspyr inherited from Firaxis, rather than the parts that Aspyr created themselves.

Windows seems to be less picky about these things generally. I've found mods with XML that contains high-value ascii characters that break the Mac version but presumably work OK in Windows.It's my understanding the issue is less about handling case-sensitive strings in general and more to do with the actual file system. But again, I'm no expert on the subject.

Sure.

I was only using the XML file example as a (obviously bad) illustration of the generally less exacting demands of Windows, leading to code that fails when ported to the Mac OS

As a software developer with over 6 years professional experience, I can safely say that this is a joke!

A game that doesn't work on a case-sensitive file-system? Give me a break! This is a bug pure and simple. How dare the authors of this game say claim it as anything else. Just because you didn't test for it doesn't make it a bug. You might as well declare that anyone who doesn't have the exact same system configuration as your development machines is just wasting your time and that you don't want their money.

It would be like writing a game for Windows that works on FAT32 but not NTFS and then claiming that everybody should use only FAT32. That is preposterous and it is just a cover for lazy programming. If Apple provides the option, then it is standard and should therefore be supported.

In a small market like the Mac games one, I would expect developers to be trying to squeeze every ounce of revenue from the people who will buy their games, not locking them out through bugs and then justifying the stance with absurd reasons. It is the height of professional arrogance to blame the customer for this development mistake.

Unfortunately I've had to return my copy as well and have bought the PC version. I will also just play it using BootCamp.

The thing that annoys me most is that this issue is not documented on the product packaging or website. Any other company would list something like this in their release notes and then make a statement about fixing it.

This is a bug pure and simple.
Only if you have a very, very, very, strange definition of a bug. It is working as designed, and you object to the design. That's your prerogative, but you simply cannot make any case whatsoever for calling it a bug.

If Apple provides the option, then it is standard and should therefore be supported.
Apple also provides the option to partition your hard drive. But Boot Camp won't be installable if you do. That's just one example. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's standard.

It is the height of professional arrogance to blame the customer for this development mistake.
Funny, I would have said it's the height of professional arrogance to complain about design decisions when you have no knowledge of the underlying issues.

The thing that annoys me most is that this issue is not documented on the product packaging or website. Any other company would list something like this in their release notes and then make a statement about fixing it.
For the <<1% of people who would actually care, at the cost of hugely confusing the 99% of people who would have no clue what they're talking about? I'll agree it should be available information, but not that it should be prominent. It should be something you have to look for, in order to avoid confusing the vast majority of the people who read it.

Well I have had Civ III and at first I thought that Civ IV was so different I hated it, but after playing CIV IV on my macs for the past couple of months I love it, it really is an amazing update and game.
I did have one problem inititally and that was the game kept locking up. Especially on my new MacBook Pro(DualCoreIntel(Tiger10.4.7)) which is hooked up to one of those 30" monitors. Once I got to the options menu and reduced the rendering quality all my problems disappeared. I have also played Civ IV and Civ III on an Older G4 17"Powerbook, on 2 different G5 duals a G4 dual 800 anda G4 dual 1.25 with no problems at all. NOt all of them on 30" monitors
As for the issue of Macs being case sensitive they have been that way for a long time, at the user level, if you want it that way, this is even further enhanced in the latest OS called Tiger. Again thisis your choice, the OS behind it all isastandard release of Unix andIdoubt there are too many users who wouldeven know if their base OS was running case sensitive or not Ithink that bjorkmann has got this one dead to rights. So far I have had no wierd issues and most of my Macs are totally stuffed with software System enhancements audio/Video 3D Modelling (Maya) Etc so they are all loaded to the gilss and if anything is going to mess a game up it is usually too many add ons or specialized setups and none of these seem to have affected Civ IV or III. It really is a great game and if you really do want to play it, I am sure you can get it so your system will run it, as long as it fulfills the game's basic requirements.Nownot liking how a newversion ofa game works,doesnot mean it isa big,especially if it works differently from a previous version/
I truly went from hating this one to loving it now.(So much stuff had changed from CIV III> About the only thing in the Latest OSVersionsthat hascausedmeissueswith things Flash and it felows and some othe apps has been having filevault turned on. It too Macromedia hours to try and figure out why I could not access a required startup file and they never did get me an answer. I simply turned off Filevault to see what happened, because everything seemed to work as desired when I created a test user account. Going through that gave me the Filevault clue I hate switching users just to use a recalcitrant piece of software. The software had better be amazing before I will even consider that approach or at least be something Icannot live without. (Usually the occasional piece of OS 9 software and now with the Intel Macs, OS 9 is finally a thing of the past.
Stu

If the return on investment doesn't match or exceed the resources put into the initial effort, then the effort isn't worth pursuing. That's probably what the issue is with this case sensitive/insensitive debate.

IOW, if it costs Aspyr $100 to implement it, and they get $25 back on it, they probably won't do it. Heck, would *you* spend $100 knowing you'd only get $25 back on the deal?

FWIW, until now I hadn't known Mac OS X was capable of case-sensitive operations. Probably because I'm not that overly familiar with its Unix core.

Gatekeeper

What do Apple's programming guidelines say on the issue, if anything? That's a better standard to expect than whether something is an available option.

Apple's prgramming guidelines are not read by Firaxis when they are developing a game. That's why i contend that it's very likely that the problem areas are in Firaxis code and not in Aspyr's porting stuff. You can argue that Aspyr should fix all Firaxis' calls in this area, but that just adds to their cost and delay with no significant added sales to compensate. It also makes tracking Firaxis' subsequent patches and add-ons more difficult as they've modded more Firaxis code.

Alan, you're always defending Aspyr when you really don't need to.

It's reasonable to expect that Apple's guidelines are followed or that exceptions are noted where people can find them before purchase. That would prevent any of these problems.

Remember back in the early days when Apple's guidelines with regards to self-modifying code weren't followed? Many of my favorite games back then died because of that.

Alan, you're always defending Aspyr when you really don't need to.

Not really, I'm just trying to point out the economic and commercial realities of the situation they are likely to be in. I've been in the retail software publishing arena, and know some of the "rock/hard place" choices that have to be made from time to time.
It's reasonable to expect that Apple's guidelines are followed or that exceptions are noted
Civ4 breaks Apple guidelines in a hundred different places. It wasn't designed by a Mac-savvy developer. Aspyr would have to produce a list as big as the box to disclaim all the violations, or rewrite the entire product.

Only if you have a very, very, very, strange definition of a bug. It is working as designed, and you object to the design. That's your prerogative, but you simply cannot make any case whatsoever for calling it a bug.

Nobody design a piece of software with incompatibility issues as part of the design. Aspyr didn't sit at the table and on their list of features have "123: Make sure game only runs on case-insensitive filesystems". They just didn't do it, and the reason they didn't do it is that they never thought of it or that they decided it wasn't worth it. Whatever their reasoning, it IS a bug.


Apple also provides the option to partition your hard drive. But Boot Camp won't be installable if you do. That's just one example. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's standard.

BootCamp is beta software, and it is free. It also has to go in at a very low level and mess with the partition tables. Probably makes sense not to mess with that stuff since the negative consequence is destroying someone's data. I expect less of them on this one.


Funny, I would have said it's the height of professional arrogance to complain about design decisions when you have no knowledge of the underlying issues.

Now that IS possibly true. But I know from personal experience how hard it is to make software that works on different filesystems, and the answer is "it's not". It is dead easy. You just do it from the start.

You just do it from the start.
That's just it .... Aspyr weren't there "at the start".

Nobody design a piece of software with incompatibility issues as part of the design. Aspyr didn't sit at the table and on their list of features have "123: Make sure game only runs on case-insensitive filesystems". They just didn't do it, and the reason they didn't do it is that they never thought of it or that they decided it wasn't worth it. Whatever their reasoning, it IS a bug.
False. The design choice was that it might or might not work, whichever ended up happening. By any reasonable definition, it would ONLY be a bug if they had intended for it to work on case-sensitive filesystems and it did not. There was no such intention. The design explicitly and deliberately did not include that feature. Therefore its absence cannot credibly be termed a bug. It is a design decision.

BootCamp is beta software, and it is free. It also has to go in at a very low level and mess with the partition tables. Probably makes sense not to mess with that stuff since the negative consequence is destroying someone's data. I expect less of them on this one.
So apparently this definition of "standard and should be supported" is quite elastic. Not that that makes it wrong, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.

Now that IS possibly true. But I know from personal experience how hard it is to make software that works on different filesystems, and the answer is "it's not". It is dead easy. You just do it from the start.
Which Firaxis didn't. Meaning that's not something you can credibly blame Aspyr for at all.

False. The design choice was that it might or might not work, whichever ended up happening. By any reasonable definition, it would ONLY be a bug if they had intended for it to work on case-sensitive filesystems and it did not. There was no such intention. The design explicitly and deliberately did not include that feature. Therefore its absence cannot credibly be termed a bug. It is a design decision.

Okay, we can argue about the definition of a bug all day, but my position is that anything that prevents me from playing this game on my Macbook Pro (be it a bug or a design decision) is an exceptionally bad call and if it were done in the Windows market, this problem would be a) embarrassing for the developer and b) fixed quickly.

Blizzard used to have this problem with StarCraft. They no longer have it with any of their games in this platform (and they have never complained about it being too hard).

So apparently this definition of "standard and should be supported" is quite elastic. Not that that makes it wrong, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.

No, the definition of beta is that the software isn't ready for primetime, so I'm more forgiving.
Furthermore BootCamp does what it advertises AND it says in the documentation that it doesn't work unless you only have one partition. BootCamp is also free. I didn't have to pay for it, so again, I'm more forgiving.
Civ 4 doesn't say that you have to have a case-insensitive file system so I can't work within the constraints. There isn't even anything in the readmes that says this is the case, so when it doesn't work I have to sit there messing around with Python and everything else, trying to figure out what's wrong. A google search turns up almost nothing, a search on the Aspyr site turns up even less. I found this thread through some random search whose criteria I don't even remember.

If I'd bought this game and I was an idiot, I would be lost. As it happens I had to argue with some idiot at the game store until I got my money back. You can't buy that sort of negative PR Aspyr. Well done.

Which Firaxis didn't. Meaning that's not something you can credibly blame Aspyr for at all.

Firaxis didn't need to. They develop games for Windows which only works on a case insensitive file system.
Aspyr do need to. They are a Mac developer. This is supposed to be the Mac port. Not the only-case-insensitive-Mac port.
Aspyr are held to a different standard because they INTENDED to develop a game for the Mac. Not for Windows.
Also, it isn't as though a company that ports a game doesn't have access to the source. That is HOW they port the game. Just because Firaxis don't fix something, doesn't mean that Aspyr can't. It isn't a dificult thing to do, it just takes a little bit of will to do it.

Civ4 breaks Apple guidelines in a hundred different places. It wasn't designed by a Mac-savvy developer. Aspyr would have to produce a list as big as the box to disclaim all the violations, or rewrite the entire product.

And I suppose you'll tell me how expensive it would be to document that on the online system requirements?

And I suppose you'll tell me how expensive it would be to document that on the online system requirements?

EXACTLY!

That's what irritates me the most. The complete lack of any documentation.

If, as Glenda says...
I think we can close the book on this topic. We have no plans to add case sensitive file system support to Civ 4 or any other Aspyr game.
and as Brad says...
Although I wouldn't phrase it exactly like this, it is definitely a standing support rule at Aspyr that none of our games are supported on case-sensitive file systems.

then it is clear that there is no intention to fix, or support, anything of this sort.

So HOW ABOUT DOCUMENTING IT!? Put it on your website so that I know. Under Support it should say "we don't support our games on case-sensitive file systems". Then I won't have to waste my time buying your software and I won't have to get annoyed about it!

Okay, we can argue about the definition of a bug all day, but my position is that anything that prevents me from playing this game on my Macbook Pro (be it a bug or a design decision) is an exceptionally bad call and if it were done in the Windows market, this problem would be a) embarrassing for the developer and b) fixed quickly.
The first part I won't argue with. The second, given how much unbelievably shoddy software is out there for Windows, I don't think is accurate.

Firaxis didn't need to. ... Aspyr do need to.
Your claim was that making it work on a case-sensitive system was easy if it was done from the beginning. It was not done from the beginning because the beginning was at Firaxis. And fixing something like that IS a difficult thing to do. Very.

The first part I won't argue with. The second, given how much unbelievably shoddy software is out there for Windows, I don't think is accurate.
Everything on Windows is shoddy until it's been patched til kingdom come. But they DO patch it.

Your claim was that making it work on a case-sensitive system was easy if it was done from the beginning.
True. But I didn't say it was stupendously hard if you did it later. It's harder, in that it's more tedious, but still not something I'd classify as hard.

It was not done from the beginning because the beginning was at Firaxis. And fixing something like that IS a difficult thing to do. Very.

I feel like I'm 9 years old saying this (is, is not, IS, IS NOT), but... It IS NOT a difficult thing to do. Very not. It just takes time.

Now if they're not going to fix it, that's fine. They've said as much and that's clearly their position. They've done their port of Civ 4 and they're probably off to port something else. Good. I've got my copy for Windows now and it works flawlessly so all is right with the world. And when the next game they port comes out, I'll buy it for Windows too. Perhaps after I have this exact same problem. We'll have to wait and see.

I can't really blame Aspyr. Firaxis probably did make it without any thought in their mind regarding this, and if they're like most game developers, their code is almost certainly a completely laughable mess. I do not envy anyone trying to understand it and make sensible changes to it for Mac compatibility. Since Aspyr probably only do work on the display, sound and input anyway, I can see why they wouldn't want to go looking at the file I/O, and I can also see why they have a silent policy on this. They just take what they're given and don't worry about whether any of it works properly except the bits they care about. That's their imperative, and the market they're in is small, so they'll do the fastest and easiest thing they can and move on.

But if this is their policy (and it's been stated twice here by people who work for them), then Aspyr should publish it on their website, and preferably have a line on their boxed system requirements too. It is simply polite to the consumer. Not that my opinion on this subject actually matters to them. I'm just a tiny little angry blip on their all important marketing radar.

I feel like I'm 9 years old saying this (is, is not, IS, IS NOT), but... It IS NOT a difficult thing to do. Very not. It just takes time.
Thereby making it difficult to do when under major time pressure, as is always the case when you have to get the software out in order to pay the bills.

Not to mention the fact that it can easily take a HUGE amount of time to track down everything that needs changing. This is not some small project here.

Thereby making it difficult to do when under major time pressure, as is always the case when you have to get the software out in order to pay the bills.

Which is basically what I just said. We are in agreement. They don't want to do it, and probably an economic incentive is behind that desire. There's a big surprise.

Not to mention the fact that it can easily take a HUGE amount of time to track down everything that needs changing. This is not some small project here.

Define "HUGE". If it means "not very long" then we're totally on the same page. We clearly disagree on how long it would take to locate and fix places that load or reference system resources by filename. There are also much easier ways to do it than that, depending on the shape of the codebase, but we'll leave that as an excercise to the reader.

Okay, we can argue about the definition of a bug all day, but my position is that anything that prevents me from playing this game on my Macbook Pro (be it a bug or a design decision) is an exceptionally bad call and if it were done in the Windows market, this problem would be a) embarrassing for the developer and b) fixed quickly.

The PC version of Civ4 does not work on a case-sensitive filesystem.

Blizzard used to have this problem with StarCraft. They no longer have it with any of their games in this platform (and they have never complained about it being too hard).

It's not really an issue of being difficult (not sure where this came from), but one of compatibility.

Civ4 performs checksum calculations on all of the data files it uses. Some of the XML and Python files are part of this, of course, and they contain filename references that are not case-sensitive-saavy. Changing these data files would make the Mac version fail these checksum fixes and cause problems with multiplayer games.

It's not really an issue of being difficult (not sure where this came from), but one of compatibility.

Civ4 performs checksum calculations on all of the data files it uses. Some of the XML and Python files are part of this, of course, and they contain filename references that are not case-sensitive-saavy. Changing these data files would make the Mac version fail these checksum fixes and cause problems with multiplayer games.

Right. That seems pretty reasonable then. :)

So is this going to be noted in the support pages? And is a visible statement going to be made in the system requirements so that people who have a case-sensitive file system don't make the mistake of buying a game that won't work on their machine?

So is this going to be noted in the support pages? And is a visible statement going to be made in the system requirements so that people who have a case-sensitive file system don't make the mistake of buying a game that won't work on their machine?

Dunno - that's not my area. I'll mention it though.

... but I can honestly say the percentage of users who request support for case sensitive file system support in our games is so low as to be almost unmeasurable - out of the combined hundreds of thousands of units sold of OS X games I've been involved with, less than a half dozen requests.


Thats risible. In Germany most of my friends have case sensitive file systems as a standard (out-of-the-box), like me. I did not change anything on my file system and, thus, could not play Civ IV.

Glenda, please add me to your list of case-sensitive-file-system-users, and increase to "more than half a dozen".

Please admit, that the error is also a result of poor programming directives/guidelines.

Glenda, please add me to your list of case-sensitive-file-system-users, and increase to "more than half a dozen".

But are we to more than 6 yet? ;)

Please admit, that the error is also a result of poor programming directives/guidelines.

As stated above, we can release a fixed Mac patch that breaks network games with the PC but works on case-sensitive file systems. However, I'm thinking there are definitely more than 6 people that care about that. ;)

Seriously, yeah - it's a problem, but not one that's likely to be fixed in Civ4 any time soon.

Why not try this solution:

Open Disk Utility. Select "New" -> "Blank Disk Image…" and give it a custom size (the Civ IV folder is about 2.5 GB? Make it 3 GB and you'll be fine).
Give the disk a name and save it as read/write.

Mount the disk by double-clicking on the file.

Click on the mounted disk image in Disk Utility and select the Erase tab. Under volume format choose "MacOS Extended (Journaled)". Click "Erase".

Mount the image if it has been ejected. Copy the Civ IV folder onto the image in the Finder. This may take a while.

Make an alias to the Civ application in the image or just put it in your dock. And you should be done.

The only thing that may be preventing this from working is if the preferences and files written in the documents folder's civ4 folder also need to be in the non-case-sensitive format as well. (If so, you could always try making an alias to these folders back onto the disk image.)

Edit: AlanH, is it purely coincidence that Taylorg, rjbs, jcap, bjorkmann, and alphaomega all created accounts on the same day as making their first post on this same thread, and only posting in this thread and no others, all of whom having the exact same argument?

I see no coincidence. Someone has a case sensitive file system, and can't run Civ4, so they come here and complain.

If other people have the same problem, they are likely to Google the subject and find an existing post here, or simply come here in the same way as the first poster. If they want to add their voices to the complaint they have to register. None of them are likely to post anywhere else around here, as they can't play the game.

Edit: AlanH, is it purely coincidence that Taylorg, rjbs, jcap, bjorkmann, and alphaomega all created accounts on the same day as making their first post on this same thread, and only posting in this thread and no others, all of whom having the exact same argument?

Oh god, how weird theory :nuke: :scan: :crazyeye: . And I am from Mars too.

Maybe the situation is so weird? What software company can produce such a gross mistake? Few. With how many programms this bug exists? Few. How many people are looking for a solution, after the game has been launched (in Germany) just recently? Many.

Sometimes, people should think simple and easy, instead of too smart and pseudo-sophisticated, please.

What software company can produce such a gross mistake? Few.
I think this subject has had enough discussion. Brad has pointed out that the case sensitivities existed in the Firaxis version, where Windows users are unaffected. So it wasn't a bug there. The case inconsistencies cannot be eliminated without breaking cross platform compatibility between the Mac and PC versions, so there isn't a bug on the Mac platform either, just an uncomfortable fact of life for a minority of Mac users. I really don't see any point in further discussion.

Subject, and thread, closed.