Questions & Answers [Archive] - Page 9 - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Steb

Aug 16, 2009, 08:34 AM

Stealing this from Steb's post in the first earliest UHV thread.
Apparently China founds Confucianism on turn 58 if you declare war on them. (Turn 56 if you don't)
I don't remember exactly what turn I finished Stonehenge, but you have to make a decision about whether allowing Lahore (I don't think it's on the wheat, I think it's on spice or something - it's 3 west and 2 north of the start) to grow a bit larger so you can run more scientists, or whether allowing it to finish Stonehenge a bit faster. I don't remember which one I went with. Try both if you want.
Once you finish it and switch to CS, you really have to micromanage. If I remember correctly, Lahore was either pop 5 or 6 when I finished - I ran 5 scientists for one turn, 4 the next, 5 the next (since the pop would've gone down anyway), then 3, etc. Just get the GS before turn 58 somehow. (MUCH easier said than done I admit)
If you can get some troops to China, all the better. Like usi said, you can steal workers, and you can also camp on some of the higher-commerce tiles to lower their research rate.
That is, if Rhye hasn't changed the Chinese AI in this latest patch. I believe Steb played his game in 1.184, and I played mine in 1.484.

Yay, my strategy has become a reference!

Anyway, I've achieved a UHV in 1.186 using a similar strategy without any problems (and without any war with China). I don't know what exactly is the range during which China can discover Math, but if it does too early then you're doomed. So yeah, unfortunately, it does require luck.

By the way, Lahore is built on the sugar, NE of the marble. Once you have built Stonhenge, run as many scientists as you can, I had to starve Lahore to one pop once to beat the Chinese. Micromanagement, as ThurinEthir said, is the key.

I'm going to try a new game now to get have more details.

EDIT:
I tried another monarch game and noted the turns of the major events:
Hinduism: turn 16
Buddhism: turn 33
Stonehenge (with no particular emphasis on production): 46
(Judaism in Jerusalem: 57!)
GS/Math/Confucianism: 58
Oracle/Calendar/Tao: 101
I also checked when would China have founded Confucianism: turn 66 (so I had time).

Now the interesting part is when I tried on Viceroy. I founded Hinduism and Buddhism on turn 13 and 27, was building Stonehenge when suddenly, on turn 38, China founded Confucianism!!! That's 28 turns before Monarch!

Conclusion: for India, Monarch is easier than Viceroy.

BurnEmDown

Aug 16, 2009, 09:43 AM

Maybe they got a lucky pop from a hut?

Steb

Aug 16, 2009, 11:16 AM

Perhaps, but unlikely. I tried again yet and they founded it on turn 44, which is again too early.

ThurinEthir

Aug 16, 2009, 12:37 PM

...That's ridiculously strange.
When running scientists, don't run the max amount every turn, stagger it. When the population of Lahore will go down even if you run only 2 (or 3?) scientists, that's when you move it to the max amount - then move it back.
Getting Judaism, even if you beeline Monotheism, heavily relies on luck. Of course, getting the other religions does too.

Mxzs

Aug 16, 2009, 06:10 PM

Now the interesting part is when I tried on Viceroy. I founded Hinduism and Buddhism on turn 13 and 27, was building Stonehenge when suddenly, on turn 38, China founded Confucianism!!! That's 28 turns before Monarch!

Conclusion: for India, Monarch is easier than Viceroy.

See?! See?! I'm not crazy! :D

Okay, so, I ran five tests today, just to get an idea of the range of times that religions can found at the Viceroy level. I didn't compete for religions; I just founded Dilli and diddled around researching things like Horseback Riding while letting the other civs go about their business. I let things run for 80 turns, on the assumption that even the most incompetent human player can discover at least 3 religion techs by that point. Note also that each of these results came off of a different initial start, rather than reloads from a saved turn 0.

Game 1: Hinduism (never founded); Buddhism (turn 61); Judaism (turn 42); Confucianism (turn 46); Taoism (turn 66)
Game 2: H (59); B (67); J (45); C (45); T (69)
Game 3: H (41); B (67); J (42); C (46); T (69)
Game 4: H (37); B (58); J (53); C (46); T (69)
Game 5: H (61); B (61); J (57); C (45); T (69)

I leave it to Steb and ThurinEthir to say whether the Stonehenge strategy could have gotten them to Confucianism first in any of these games.

Note also Hinduism's proclivity for appearing early, which renders Judaism rushes problematic. Now, if better players than me know how to squeeze more research out of an initially founded city (one where there are no civics, no specialists, and no buildings to goose things), I wanna hear about it. Me, I only know to work coin tiles and food tiles (preferring both to hammer tiles) if making a knowledge rush. (This means, for instance, preferring a 2F1C tile to a 2F1H tile, and preferring a 3F1C tile to a 2F1H1C tile; it also means Don't build workers or settlers, most especially if you don't have techs that will improve the land yields.)

Now, if there is no faster way to squeeze out coin (and barring lucky hits on huts), it appears to me that a Judaism rush will only get you Monotheism by turn 39; given that, Hinduism can be got only by turn 48. If so, note that in two of the above games, a Judaism rush would have cost me Hinduism.

Or maybe not. I thought maybe a player could at least minimize wasted time by starting a game, letting it run to see when the religion pop times were for that game, and then either restart if the deadlines were impossible or reload the initial turn and exploit his foreknowledge, but it turns out that won't work. I did a reload of game 5 (turn 0), and instead of popping on turn 57, Judaism popped on turn 49. So, whatever magic works inside the game to set religion pop times isn't carved in stone during the launch.

EDIT: Curiouser and curiouser, said Mxzs, who by this point was so discombobulated he had quite forgotten how to speak correct English. I launched another test game and used WB to keep an eye on Chinese tech advances. In this game, Confucianism didn't pop until turn 54. I guess it's not a surprise it should appear so much later, considering what came before.

Turn 20: To his initial stock of Mining and Agriculture, Qin had added Hunting and Archery.
Turn 30: He had added Bronze Working
Turn 40: He had added Writing and Animal Husbandry.
Turn 54: He got Mathematics

And he did all this while working only two tiles that generate coin. He also had time to build a worker and an archer and a settler and found a city.

Is this to be expected? Is the AI getting a leg up? Or am I just not a very good player because I can't even come close to recapitulating these achievements when I try playing China on Viceroy?

Well, maybe we could make it a challenge: On Viceroy, can you recapitulate Qin's game? By turn 54, you must have made Beijing a size 4 city; you must have founded Qufu (on the silk 2 squares SE of Beijing); you must have built at least one archer and at least one worker; and you must have researched Hunting, Archery, Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, Writing, and Mathematics. I would add that you are not allowed to work more than two tiles that generate coin, but since I was only dipping in and out of WB, I can't say for sure that he was working only two coin tiles during the turns I wasn't peeking.

blizzrd

Aug 16, 2009, 08:58 PM

Now, if better players than me know how to squeeze more research out of an initially founded city (one where there are no civics, no specialists, and no buildings to goose things), I wanna hear about it. Me, I only know to work coin tiles and food tiles (preferring both to hammer tiles) if making a knowledge rush. (This means, for instance, preferring a 2F1C tile to a 2F1H tile, and preferring a 3F1C tile to a 2F1H1C tile; it also means Don't build workers or settlers, most especially if you don't have techs that will improve the land yields.)

That's about it, you've summarised it nicely there. You could add found your city on the coast for extra trade routes/commerce yield from tiles perhaps.

So if you know all of this, why are you playing Viceroy again?

ThurinEthir

Aug 16, 2009, 09:17 PM

A few things I want to add:
-According to the Wiki's strategy guide (which is admittedly rather out of date), you can found Judaism on turn 38 on Monarch. (I think Viceroy has cheaper techs? I can't remember)
-If you're going for Judaism, you're going to stop by Masonry - perhaps building a worker might be worth it. Doubling the speed of Stonehenge can definitely help.
-If you manage to pop Agriculture, you might also want to build a worker. You can then run more scientists after finishing Stonehenge.
-When should you build a worker? You could try doing it after Lahore hits pop 2 (either build warriors or start building Stonehenge first). You could also try doing it after you research Mono. Or you could not do it at all.
-Don't forget to send a warrior off to Europe at some point! You can pick up quite a few essential techs from the Romans and Carthaginians, and perhaps the Greeks too.

Edit: Thought I'd also throw this out there - for gameplay reasons, the auto-found dates for Confucianism and Taoism are ok, but historically, they're horrible. Confucius and Lao Tze both lived around 500 BC, and as we've discovered Confucianism is often founded about a thousand years before that...

Mxzs

Aug 16, 2009, 09:27 PM

So if you know all of this, why are you playing Viceroy again?

That's actually a nice compliment. Thanks. :)

I've been busting my face against India-Viceroy because when attempting a Civ UHV I've never really done before, I like to ramp up the challenge. Actually, the first half dozen games I don't even try for a victory; I just noodle around for 100 or 150 turns just to see what I can expect to face. Which is why I became increasingly bemused as I noticed in game after game that five religions would get discovered before turn 70.

I used to play RFC quite often, but lost the habit (and the Civ habit itself) for about a year, then recently got back into it and finally figured out some of the finer points that had eluded me for a long time. Like the above points about early knowledge rushes.

matt94

Aug 17, 2009, 02:55 AM

I will give some more information. I am playing version 1.186 with the Germans on monarch difficulty. what happened to me (twice now) was that in the beginning I am able to put my units for hire but then at some point when I go back to the screen not only can I not see my units on the bottom but the units that I put up for hire also disappeared on the top! I know there are 2 mercenary screens and I am on the one were I can put units up for hire. The screen is just blank:cry:

Another thing I don't know if this is a bug or not because I am new to this mod but are you supposed to start with no expansion civic and have to anarchy to get subjection? Because I am starting with despotism as my expansion civic even though despotism isn't on the list.

:(:(:(
can someone at least tell me that my two problems are not normal instead of ignoring me so I can post them on the bug report thread?:cry:

JujuLautre

Aug 17, 2009, 05:57 AM

Well, perhaps you could post a save so that people could try to replicate that ?

Mxzs

Aug 17, 2009, 06:11 AM

I am invincibly ignorant on the subject of how the mercenary screen works. But I also know how frustrating it can be to have your posts ignored. So, I suggest this only to provoke someone more knowledgeable than me into telling me I am wrong, and maybe giving you the correct answer. ;)

If the units you set out for hire have disappeared, is it possible they have been hired? You might look in your Interior Advisor screen (the button between the City list and the Civics screen) and see if you're getting Mercenary income.

As for the civics thing ... Um, that is so baffling that even the question doesn't make sense. Yeah, Depotism is not one of the Expansion civics, so what does the screen say that has you thinking that Despotism is your chosen Expansion civic? Does one of the five Expansion civics have a yellow-highlighted picture next to it? Or are they all blank?

Mxzs

Aug 17, 2009, 08:15 AM

At the risk of double-posting, I'll put this in a separate post, since it is OT from my reply to matt94:

A few things I want to add:
-According to the Wiki's strategy guide (which is admittedly rather out of date), you can found Judaism on turn 38 on Monarch. (I think Viceroy has cheaper techs? I can't remember)
-If you're going for Judaism, you're going to stop by Masonry - perhaps building a worker might be worth it. Doubling the speed of Stonehenge can definitely help.
-If you manage to pop Agriculture, you might also want to build a worker. You can then run more scientists after finishing Stonehenge.
-When should you build a worker? You could try doing it after Lahore hits pop 2 (either build warriors or start building Stonehenge first). You could also try doing it after you research Mono. Or you could not do it at all.
-Don't forget to send a warrior off to Europe at some point! You can pick up quite a few essential techs from the Romans and Carthaginians, and perhaps the Greeks too.

These are excellent points, and are well taken. I don't mean to be argumentative, only analytical, if tussle with them.

The Greeks don't show up until around turn 50, and tech trading won't be available for quite a few turns after that. Given that five of the seven religions will almost certainly be founded by turn 80 at the latest, I'm not certain tech trading is going to be helpful during the initial religion rush.

(Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be sending out your warrior ASAP to pop huts and get in position to act as a rather scruffy ambassador to the European courts; quite the contrary. But the Indian game breaks into two parts, and the Europeans are useful only during the second part, after you've not lost the UHV during the religion rush.)

As for a worker being useful during that initial rush ...

Well, your rush is either going to be for Judaism or for the Chinese religions (so-called because China in RFC virtually beelines them). But you're not going to get both; you can't get both Judaism and Confucianism. So you are either going to rush one or rush the other, but not both.

If you rush the Chinese techs, then Masonry will be a fatal distraction. If you rush Judaism, is there any point in getting Stonehenge ASAP?

Well, maybe, if Stonehenge and Caste System can guarantee that a Judaism rush won't cost you Hinduism, and if you can pop a GS who will be useful later on.

So I decided to try modeling a best possible early game for such a strategy. I decided to move my warrior around to pop huts, but instead of popping them I used WB to give myself the preferred results. These were: pop a worker from the Indian hut; pop Animal Husbandry from the Afghan hut; and pop Agriculture from the Siberian hut.

I made these assumptions because popping a worker would "save" me the trouble of building one; if popping a worker doesn't guarantee a payoff, then I doubt building one would be all to the good. Moreover, by giving myself techs that would let me improve the cow and wheat squares in addition to the Marble tile, I would be that much better able to exploit Stonehenge.

Basically, if the Best. Possible. Run of Luck. Ever. for the Indians doesn't materially improve the Stonehenge strategy (on a Judaism rush), then I'm not sure I see the point in going for a worker.

Herewith, a report on what happened.

1: I found Lahore on the sugar square. I start Stonehenge; research path is Masonry - Polytheism - Monotheism. I decide to slightly emphasize production over food; every worked square will have a hammer, but I will work the 2F1H1C Wheat before I work the 1F2H Forest/Hill/Grassland tile.
6: I "pop" a worker in central India.
8: The worker arrives at the Marble tile, and has nothing to do for 4 more turns.
11: Lahore hits pop 2. I am working the Marble square and the Wheat square.
12: Masonry discovered. Quarry work begins.
20: I "pop" Animal Husbandry in Afghanistan. Quarry comes online.
25: Polytheism discovered.
27: Cow is pastured (though not connected; no Wheel); Lahore hits pop 3. Tiles worked: improved Marble; unimproved Wheat; improved Cow. I could work the forest/hill/grassland tile instead of Wheat, and this would get me Stonehenge one turn quicker, but by working the Wheat I will put Lahore 6 turns closer to pop 4 when Stonehenge. Moreover, by working the Wheat I will build Stonehenge one turn before I hit pop 4, which means if I choose I can draw down on a nearly full food bank when I hire specialists.
28: My "luck" continues; the Siberian hut yields Agriculture just as my worker had run out of things to do.
36: Wheat is farmed, and because it's by a river, it is connected to Lahore, yielding a health bonus. The extra food nearly wrecks my plans for a full food bank, and I have to shift a laborer to set my population growth back by a turn.
37: Stonehenge is built, and 3 Scientists are hired. With 33 food in the bank, I can run the max number of scientists for 11 turns before I run out of food. I do pop one scientist onto the Wheat field for two turns, though, to stretch things out so I can secure my GS without losing population in Lahore. While I am doing this, I am dropping one hammer per turn (from the city square) into Barracks.
39: Monotheism discovered. Meanwhile, while I wasn't looking, my Warrior, returning from Siberia, gets hilariously lost in Tibet. (The barbarian city of Afrosiab sent him astray, apparently.)
44: Confucianism founded in a far off land. Well, the GS won't be useful there.
46: Meditation discovered, and Hinduism founded.
51: Great Scientist popped; I set him aside. With 1 food in the bank, I return to working the Marble and Wheat, but keep one scientist working.
53: Priesthood discovered, and Buddhism founded.

At this point I've secured my two necessary religions, and also Judaism. This is more due to luck than the strategy, I deem, because Hinduism can be discovered as early as turn 37, 9 turns before I got it. I don't think I could have pushed the Stonehenge-Judaism strategy any harder. I rushed it almost as fast as I could, holding back only so that maximize the turns I would have to run scientists. I had three scientists running for eleven turns. Moreover, from turn 20 onward, I was drawing three coin from the improved Marble square, which for research purposes made Lahore after turn 27 into the equivalent of a pop 5 city.

Now, if all these advantages still left me with (let us say) a 40% chance of losing Hinduism, then I think we can conclude that the Stonehenge strategy does not materially improve your chances of saving Hinduism after a Judaism rush.

I decided to press on, though, because I wondered if it might yet be useful for snatching Taoism from the Chinese. So I kept maximizing out my lightbulbs as far as I could without losing population, turned to building the Oracle, and set the research path for Writing - Fishing - Sailing. My plan was use the GS to pop Math, and once I had Sailing use the Oracle to sweep up Calendar. With micromanagement, I would be able to time it so that I could (in theory) build the Oracle one turn after discovering Sailing.

Well, I got Writing and popped Math. But the same turn I got Fishing (turn 68), the Chinese founded Taoism. I pressed on, and would have gotten Sailing on turn 76, but something weird happened on turn 75: the cost of Sailing leaped from 192 lbs to 275 lbs. I've never seen this before; is it common?

Anyway, I had to do some rejiggering, but I wound up getting Calendar on turn 80, which is about ten turns too late.

ThurinEthir

Aug 17, 2009, 10:08 AM

The Greeks don't show up until around turn 50, and tech trading won't be available for quite a few turns after that. Given that five of the seven religions will almost certainly be founded by turn 80 at the latest, I'm not certain tech trading is going to be helpful during the initial religion rush.
You can pick up fishing/sailing from Carthage (or maybe Rome?), if you're going for Calendar. Most people usually found Taoism around the time of their spawn.
And I wasn't really talking about for religion techs - you've most likely skipped agriculture and archery, and those farms will definitely help you in your third goal, while those archers will defend you from the hoards of elephants that come from the south and the east.

Well, your rush is either going to be for Judaism or for the Chinese religions (so-called because China in RFC virtually beelines them). But you're not going to get both; you can't get both Judaism and Confucianism. So you are either going to rush one or rush the other, but not both.
You can get both. I've done it. Somehow. (I honestly have no clue how) Perhaps getting that worker to improve the marble is the key to it.
An old strategy used to call for you to found Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism. I believe I still have a save from when I did it once, I can post a screenshot later. (since I doubt any of you will be willing to open up Warlords to see it...)

If you can only get one though, I'd go with Confucianism. It's harder, but if you go with Judaism, you'll also most likely have to go with Christianity and Islam in the long run, which really takes too long, and will probably stunt your growth, causing you to fail the third goal.

Mxzs

Aug 17, 2009, 05:18 PM

Oh, I don't doubt you that it was possible to get both Judaism and Confucianism in earlier versions of RFC. No, it's this Viceroy level on 1.186 that has me totally bemused. Judaism seems to come no later than turn 57, and Confucianism no later than turn 54. Even with my free worker, and rigged "lucky" pops of Animal Husbandry, Agriculture, and a worker, I could manage to score both only by turn 60.

Again, on the Europeans: Carthage spawns on turn 86. The Chinese are almost certain to get Taoism 25 turns after they get Confucianism. Even assuming a late Confucian acquisition by them (turn 54), that gives them Taoism before turn 80. So, getting Fishing on turn 86 wouldn't be helpful.

(EDIT: I just launched a game as Carthage to confirm the spawn date, and the first announcement is that Taoism has been founded in a distant land. So, okay, they will sometimes get it later than turn 80. But out of the last 7 games I've test driven, that is by far the latest Taoism discovery date I've seen.)

I hope I don't sound frustrated. It's just turned into a fascinating intellectual puzzle with some odd little mysteries. Like, how are the Chinese able to manage such incredibly fast research rates? (See above for my account of what they had acquired by turn 54

matt94

Aug 17, 2009, 05:52 PM

Well, perhaps you could post a save so that people could try to replicate that ?

sorry but um... how do you post a save?

deanej

Aug 17, 2009, 07:18 PM

Opferlamm

Aug 17, 2009, 07:22 PM

sorry but um... how do you post a save?

If you quote someone or don´t use the quick answer option by choosing "Go advanced"

Under "Additional Options" click "Manage Attachments"

fireclaw722

Aug 17, 2009, 07:27 PM

Attachments

Mxzs

Aug 17, 2009, 08:46 PM

Here's something from the 1.180 changelog:
-AI research rate slowed down, and adjusted depending on the handicap level (slower research rate on emperor, faster on viceroy)

Isn't that backwards? Viceroy is supposed to be easier than monarch and emperor, but if that is written properly, that could explain the chinese teching so fast.

I had interpreted that to me that the the AI's slow tech rate on Viceroy had been tweaked to go a little faster (but not as fast as Monarch), and the AI's fast tech rate on Emperor had been tweaked to go a little slower (but not as slow as Monarch). But I'm beginning to wonder.

I did two quick 80-turn games on Monarch and Emperor, just to see what the tech times were. I recapitulated the "Best Start Ever" game I described above. I won't give full recapitulations. Suffice it to say that on Monarch I was able to found Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity by turn 80. (I got Theology via the Oracle.) I lost Confucianism to the Chinese, who got it on turn 74. (I have never seen the Chinese that slow to found Conf. in my Viceroy games.) Chasing Judaism really did put me in a hole in terms of chasing Conf., by the way, but maybe I was being careless in my play.

On Emperor, Judaism was founded on turn 62; Buddhism on turn 67; Confucianism on turn 70. Again, way later than any of the Viceroy games.

blizzrd

Aug 17, 2009, 09:26 PM

I had interpreted that to me that the the AI's tech rate on Viceroy had been tweaked to go a little faster (but not as fast as Monarch), and the AI's tech rate on Emperor had been tweaked to go a little slower (but not as slow as Monarch).
Yes, that is correct.

matt94

Aug 17, 2009, 11:22 PM

Ok here is a save. you will see right away the civic problem, but as for the mercenary problem, that just happens randomly on some turn so you might not see it.

Also this is a great save because somehow Frankfurt started with a cataphract and 3 pike man!:D

Mxzs

Aug 18, 2009, 12:59 AM

Okay, I take back what I said about Masonry and Workers probably being a distraction on a Confucian rush, at least on Monarch. I just tried them out on Monarch without any tricks or cheats, and though I think I got a little sloppy at the end, it worked out beautifully.

I settled Lahore and sent my warrior to pop huts. No techs resulted, btw, just money, maps and a scout.

Initial Research path: Masonry - Meditation - Priesthood - Writing.
Initial Build order: Worker - Stonehenge.

The worker built one turn before Masonry hit (probably a mistake to start with a worker anyway), and he did the only thing he could, which was bring the marble on line. I got Hinduism and Buddhism with no problem. Stonehenge was built a little before I got Priesthood, so I dropped a few hammers into barracks while using Caste System to run four scientists. I popped a GS without losing population, and when I had writing I used him to grab Mathematics.

Subsequent research path: Fishing - Sailing.
Build order: Oracle.

I timed Oracle to appear just after sailing, and used it take Calendar.

Now, I don't know if this is a good research strategy, but it did get me four religions.

So, why can't this work on Viceroy?

Samson

Aug 18, 2009, 12:28 PM

A couple of questions:

Is there a way to turn down or off stability?

What are the techs that get out off the Middle ages, ie. turn off the Mayas UP?

Is there a list of the great people techs (the ones that they will lightbulb in order) for RFC, or are they identical to the main game?

kairob

Aug 18, 2009, 01:13 PM

Samson

Aug 18, 2009, 01:29 PM

I only know the answer to your first question, other people might be able to help with the rest...

The are many ways to tone down stability. Most require at least a basic understanding of python.
You need to change the code in stability.py to ease things up. You could add a code to give large amounts of stability to the human player, or a code to give extra stability to everyone, or increase the stability bonus from jails to give larger empires more stability etc... It just depends on what you want to achieve

I do not know python, but I can guess that I might try:

File = C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Rhye's and Fall of Civilization\Assets\Python

Lines 61 - 63 are the function getStability( self, iCiv ): (see spoiler [1]). If I was to say annd 5 the the return function (return (scriptDict['lStability'][iCiv] + 5) that would add a fair bit to every civ, right?

How do I then make it use this file? Just start a new game?

[1] def getStability( self, iCiv ):
scriptDict = pickle.loads( gc.getGame().getScriptData() )
return scriptDict['lStability'][iCiv]

blizzrd

Aug 18, 2009, 03:36 PM

What are the techs that get out off the Middle ages, ie. turn off the Mayas UP?

To advance to the Classical Era:
Horseback Riding, Aesthetics, Mathematics, Alphabet, Monarchy, Metal Casting, Iron Working, Code of Laws

To advance to the Medieval Era:
Music, Philosophy, Civil Service, Feudalism, Theology, Machinery

To advance to the Renaissance Era:
Military Tradition, Printing Press, Astronomy, Education, Military Science

To advance to the Industrial Era:
Steam Power, Communism, Physics, Biology, Steel

To advance to the Modern Era:
Rocketry, Plastics, Radio, Ecology, Refrigeration

To advance to the Future Era:
Stealth, Fusion, Genetics

Is there a list of the great people techs (the ones that they will lightbulb in order) for RFC, or are they identical to the main game?
It is the same as regular CivIV, however the tech tree is different under RFC and so sometimes preferred techs by certain Great People may not be availalbe due to a lack of a prerequisite.

dragodon64

Aug 18, 2009, 03:39 PM

Education, Printing Press, Astronomy and Constitution IIRC.

Samson

Aug 18, 2009, 04:11 PM

File = C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Rhye's and Fall of Civilization\Assets\Python

Lines 61 - 63 are the function getStability( self, iCiv ): (see spoiler [1]). If I was to say annd 5 the the return function (return (scriptDict['lStability'][iCiv] + 5) that would add a fair bit to every civ, right?

To quote myself, I think this works. I changed the return line to "return (50 + scriptDict['lStability'][iCiv])" and with egypt, just started (turn 4 or someting) I get very solid stability (see screenie).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=224983&stc=1&d=1250633449

Cethegus

Aug 19, 2009, 04:43 AM

I'd like to ask how to set new values for the Embassy buildings. I want to add new buildings (including 2nd UBs) to RFC, but each building/wonder starting from the American Embassy ends up overruling all other conditions. No culture, no sacrifice anger modifier, no worker speed improvement, nothing. They all end up as "Embassies" (requiring at least 10 :espionage: against 'that particular civilization'), although I doubt the Embassy system connects them with any civ.

I want to know how to set off the embassy system to add more buildings than there already is, or at least how I can "push them out of the way" so that they don't overrule my made changes. This can be done either by restricting the number of Embassies on Embassies alone or giving me ~30 free building slots for use.

usi

Aug 19, 2009, 03:25 PM

I have the same question.

So much as I have checked the files, I think the espionage texts are added by the DLL.
I haven't tried (because I couldn't even complie the SDK), but I guess we should change NUM_BUILDINGS_PLAGUE (and maybe NUM_BUILDINGTYPES_PLAGUE too) in CvRhyes.h.

Ogrelord

Aug 20, 2009, 05:51 AM

Is it normal within the game, that the Corn resources appears 1 tile east of Bordeaux?
This happened in my France game in the 1600ish. I didn't cut the forest around Bordeaux, and it just appear after a Greece diplomatic screen.

Mining resources appears in hill sometime, oil get discovered pre-Industrial age, copper is one of the reward for the forge quest. But I never experienced corn blooming out of nowhere.

mitsho

Aug 20, 2009, 05:59 AM

it does in RFC, but it is scripted ;-) I think horses appear in America after a certain time as well, and I think the dye in France appears to late for the Carthaginian UHV... ;-)

Malchar

Aug 20, 2009, 07:51 AM

I just started this mod a few days ago, and it's great. However, I can't seem to find the answer to this: Is it possible to create a colony?

As Japan, I made Mongolia into a vassal. A few turns later, Mongolia fell apart into independent cities. I recaptured the cities for myself, and Mongolia no longer exists as a civilization. Is there any way to make these cities into a colony or vassal? On the domestic tab, the only option is to make them independent. Is there any benefit to having independent cities besides the reduced maintenance and increased stability?

Opferlamm

Aug 20, 2009, 07:54 AM

Malchar

Aug 20, 2009, 07:58 AM

Is Mongolia ever going to come back and try to claim their cities? The current year is 1868.

kairob

Aug 20, 2009, 09:56 AM

They will come back if you are unstable and have nationalism, however they wont automatically be your vassal. This is something I have been trying to change about the mod for ages but there you go..

Malchar

Aug 20, 2009, 12:46 PM

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't really know the first thing about how to change the mod, but perhaps you could make it so that vassals won't collapse unless their master would also collapse? Anyway, it's a great mod, and I was able to fix it in Worldbuilder.

While I'm on the subject, I also have one city in Korea. On the domestic tab, the only option is to set free all of Mongolia and Korea together, which doesn't really make sense. I think that Korea is inside of Japan's natural empire area (or whatever it's called). Mongolia is outside of the area. I ought to be able to set Mongolia free while keeping Korea. I see that it behaves in this way because Mongolia and Korea are on the same continent, and Japan is on its own landmass.

Finally, I'm curious at how often Christianity fails to spread. In my current game (monarch), I think Christianity was founded somewhere in the Balkans (not sure if this is a variable), and I don't even think it has spread anywhere! Islam has spread throughout all of Europe, America, and Russia. This is only my fifth game, so I'm not sure how typical this is.

BurnEmDown

Aug 20, 2009, 04:05 PM

Malchar

Aug 20, 2009, 04:25 PM

I guess you're right unless it could be made possible to voluntarily release a vassal.

matt94

Aug 20, 2009, 05:12 PM

Hi I'm sorry if I am spamming this thread but I posted a save before in my last post and if you load it up you can see the problem I am having. Sorry that I keep posting but it seems people are just accidentally skipping over my posts.:(

Opferlamm

Aug 21, 2009, 07:35 AM

matt94

Aug 21, 2009, 10:44 AM

it´s normal that you have to adjust the civics for yourself

Its normal to start with despotism as expansion when its not even on the list? I think that's a bug. No Im sure that's a bug

blizzrd

Aug 21, 2009, 03:03 PM

matt94

Aug 21, 2009, 04:56 PM

It's not a bug because it has never happened to me. There must be something about the way you set up your game files that is not quite right for this to have occurred. But my version of RFC has not ever showed this problem.

I suggest you try to update again and see if that fixes your problem. Be sure to delete the entire RFC folder (in the Mods subdirectory) before you unpack the 1.186 download.

Thanks I found the problem. I reinstalled RFC and it worked fine, but than after I went and reinstalled the Varietas Delectat modmod the problem came back, so does anyone else with the VD modmod have this problem?

JiimBV

Aug 22, 2009, 10:21 AM

I discovered (while playing the History of the Three Kingdoms mod for BTS), that it's possible to allow the player to be a vassal. Is this possible for RFC? If so, does anyone know how to do this for RFC? ... And more importantly, can anyone walk me through it? :lol:

Thanks in advance for bearing with my complete lack of modding experience! :)

Mekajiki

Aug 23, 2009, 08:28 AM

Thanks I found the problem. I reinstalled RFC and it worked fine, but than after I went and reinstalled the Varietas Delectat modmod the problem came back, so does anyone else with the VD modmod have this problem?

I also have this problem with RFC VD. I've been just ignoring it and leaving my expansion civic as Despotism until I want to change it to something else because as far as I can tell I'm not getting any penalty for it. The only weird thing was that I was playing as Rome with Hereditary Rule and Despotism and I got the "We love the Despot!" event in a couple of cities.

It's only really an aesthetic problem though from what I can tell.

matt94

Aug 23, 2009, 10:31 AM

I also have this problem with RFC VD. I've been just ignoring it and leaving my expansion civic as Despotism until I want to change it to something else because as far as I can tell I'm not getting any penalty for it. The only weird thing was that I was playing as Rome with Hereditary Rule and Despotism and I got the "We love the Despot!" event in a couple of cities.

It's only really an aesthetic problem though from what I can tell.

Normally I wouldn't care in any other mod but in RFC your civics can affect your stability so Im not really sure but what if it gives you less stability in civics?

Cethegus

Aug 23, 2009, 12:54 PM

Normally I wouldn't care in any other mod but in RFC your civics can affect your stability so Im not really sure but what if it gives you less stability in civics?

- Representation and Bureaucracy if you have more than 3 cities
- Vassalage after the Middle Ages
- Despotism and Slavery after researching Democracy

dragodon64

Aug 23, 2009, 04:47 PM

http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rhye%27s_and_Fall_of_Civilization_ guide_to_stability#Civics_category

This is probably a more inclusive list.

Mekajiki

Aug 23, 2009, 10:21 PM

Yeah, I've more or less memorized the list, which is why I'm not too worried.

By the time I get to anything that has a negative effect with despotism, I've more than likely change my expansion to vassalage or occupation. The only real exception to that is Bureaucracy, which I rarely use anyway.

Infantry#14

Aug 24, 2009, 12:49 PM

blizzrd

Aug 24, 2009, 03:56 PM

Coincidence, although others have recently posted that they found India on Viceroy is actually harder than on Monarch under 1.186!

Cethegus

Aug 25, 2009, 06:03 AM

I was playing India on Viceroy. I follow other people's strategies and go for judaism. However, when i research monothesism, some nation has found hinduism! I open the worldbuilder and found out an independent nation name Aficanos in the desert up northwest of India found it! I played another game and find hinduism first, but Egypt beat me to judaism! Is this a new feature in the update or coincidence?

The strategy is to build an extra warrior sometime and declare war on the Independents while researching Monotheism. They'll change their research to a more military-related technology which will buy you enough time to get both Judaism and Hinduism. If you're having trouble getting to Priesthood first because of the Greeks, you can repeat the said strategy with them too.

Infantry#14

Aug 25, 2009, 05:42 PM

Is Persia harder to play in the new update, because immortals are now spearman, it takes twice the time to conquer cities. Anyone has any strategies?

BurnEmDown

Aug 26, 2009, 07:29 AM

I find Persia is now based even more on luck, you just have to hope that Babylon doesn't research BW on time and built axemen. As for the rest of the civs you need to take over, you can always use horse archers along with catapults and swordsmen.

Mxzs

Aug 26, 2009, 07:55 AM

As long as we're asking for insights about strategies with the latest version, anyone have any insights about winning a Babylon Historical Victory on Monarch? I mean, other than praying for absurdly lucky hut bonuses, or an incompetent Asoka who is unable to grow Dilli properly?

I could post a long analysis of the problem I'm having, but here's the short version: You have to get Monarchy by turn 84, because the Persians will spawn with it. Hereditary Rule is also the only way you can get your population past 6 on turn 84, which is what you need to do in order to guarantee a victory over India. But it seems to be impossible to get get Monarchy before turn 76 - 80, which is not enough time to get your population up to the necessary level.

I have tried everything from chasing Stonehenge (for culture AND caste system, so I can get a scientist or two) and the Oracle, to bulldozing through via a Library. All the strategies seem to wash up with Monarchy at turn 78 or thereabouts.

blizzrd

Aug 26, 2009, 04:18 PM

AnotherPacifist

Aug 26, 2009, 09:06 PM

Great artist without knowledge of Aesthetics =Monarchy (Nero anyone? :)). You're on the right track with Stonehenge.

Mxzs

Aug 27, 2009, 05:00 PM

Really? The GA gambit works on 1.186? You've done it? Because I've tried half a dozen times, and I've found that a GA chase is slower than an Oracle chase, and you've less certitude of getting a GA with Stonehenge than you do of getting Monarchy via the Oracle. If you've done it on Monarch on 1.186, you've got another trick than Stonehenge up your sleeve ...

I can't explain the problem I'm having without going into mindnumbing numerical detail, but:

1. You absolutely must pursue the line Pottery - Writing. You must work flood plains as each new population unit becomes available; if for even one turn you work, say, the Wooded Hills tile, you will lose Writing to China.

2. This means you cannot start researching Mysticism until turn 31. The fastest chase of Mysticism will yield it up on turn 39. Here is where the production bottleneck appears.

3. Egypt will build Stonehenge by turn 58 in almost every game; usually they build it on turn 56 or 57; I once had them get it on turn 55. This means that, to be assured of Stonehenge peacefully you must crash build it even at the cost of losing food, at a time when your population only 4. You can get it on turn 57 if you micromanage each turn. (Don't point to the Stone resource. You have to start working on Stonehenge immediately, and you can't research Masonry and build a quarry before you could build Stonehenge without using them. Anyway, building a Worker is just another way of messing up your population growth/management. See below.)

4. You can try intimidating Egypt by declaring war and moving a huge stack of Warriors (the only thing your research will let you build, unless you've some secret move that gets you bowmen or spearman or battle tanks within the first dozen turns) toward them, blocking their quarry and forcing them to change production. If you do that you can build your population to the cusp of 6 while still getting Stonehenge.

5. But in either case, whether you go peacefully or not, you have another production bottleneck on the other side of Stonehenge, because you've got to run 2 artists for at least ten turns if you're going to pop a GP by the deadline. Note well: by the deadline. If you've timed it perfectly, you might pop the GP by turn 77. But even if you (barely) have a population of 5, it will take you 10 turns to build up to 6. Seventy-seven plus ten equals eighty-seven, three turns past the "largest population" check. By that time Dilli (unless Asoka has been incompetent) will be comfortably at 6, probably at 7, and maybe even at 8.

6. Kill Asoka? Beijing is almost as likely as Dilli to outstrip Babylon in population, and you can't get warriors up to Beijing in time, and, anyway, Beijing is always protected by archers.

Basically, no matter what I try, I can't research Monarchy and prep Babylon's population to rocket past the population 6 barrier. Doing one excludes the other.

If I look at it from the end game, it appears to me that I need to have Monarchy in hand by turn 73 (and probably by turn 60, given that Asoka can easily reach population 7 by turn 84); I also need to have Babylon at least at population 5 at the same time. Only if I meet both of these conditions can I be assured of a Monarch-level victory that does not rely on the luck of Asoka or Qin's incompetence as a population manager.

So here's the question: How do you get Monarchy and get your population up to 5 by turn 60 without losing Writing to China?

deanej

Aug 27, 2009, 06:51 PM

Umm... play viceroy? Though even then you'll have to micromanage to get writing in time.

The guide mentioned using caste system to get the culture/artists. Could that work? I won Babylon that way on 1.184 viceroy.

Mxzs

Aug 27, 2009, 07:27 PM

Heh. Yeah, that's one way. "How do I win a Babylon UHV on Monarch? Play Viceroy!" :)

I've won on Viceroy. Actually, I won on Monarch under 1.186. But when I went back to try to replicate it and take notes, I realized it was because Asoka and Qin hadn't grown their population properly. Luck, in other words, was with me. Twenty subsequent attempts haven't worked.

Caste System, like Oracle, results in a bottleneck, where you can't grow population AND generate the Wonders and GPs you need to get past 6. Or, at least, I haven't been able to find a way past.

blizzrd

Aug 27, 2009, 08:21 PM

6. Kill Asoka? Beijing is almost as likely as Dilli to outstrip Babylon in population, and you can't get warriors up to Beijing in time, and, anyway, Beijing is always protected by archers.
You don't necessarily have to eliminate India, just harass them enough should be fine. If you are lucky enough to get woodsman II bonus you can usually capture some Indian workers which often screws their growth. Pillage improvements (and roads), mess with their workers and you'll get ahead of Dilli's in population.

Same goes for China. Pillage and harass/capture workers as much as you can. Eventually they will send some serious military unit to get rid of your pesky threat, but this delay/change of tactic is often enough to get you ahead of Beijing in population also.

The Turk

Aug 29, 2009, 04:46 AM

@Rhye

For your next version of RFC, is it possible if you could make some of the civs UHV a bit more stragetical and less based on luck, especially for the Indian and Babylonian civs who I find extremly diffucult to beat on Monarch level.

timfi

Aug 29, 2009, 09:23 AM

Hey, guys.
Let me thank you for this great mod.

There is something strange with the latest version 1.186, though - I tried playing Jap after downloading and found out that no one was going to engage in a fair tech exchange with me - not my military allies, nor my Khmer vassal. They rejected the 2 times expensive tecnologies from me and offered something like 1 to 5 deals:eek:(on a viceroy level!)
Is that what is intended to be (maybe they were afraid of my No1 score) or some kind of bug?

Mxzs

Aug 29, 2009, 10:23 AM

You don't necessarily have to eliminate India, just harass them enough should be fine. If you are lucky enough to get woodsman II bonus you can usually capture some Indian workers which often screws their growth. Pillage improvements (and roads), mess with their workers and you'll get ahead of Dilli's in population.

Same goes for China. Pillage and harass/capture workers as much as you can. Eventually they will send some serious military unit to get rid of your pesky threat, but this delay/change of tactic is often enough to get you ahead of Beijing in population also.

Huh, that does seem to work, though it does seem to require quite large forces. Thanks! I managed to surround Beijing with 4 Warriors, which made it possible to pillage all their food improvements and then pin them down inside the city walls. Beijing's population actually dropped from 4 to 1, due I'm sure to whipping up defenders.

Dilli? ... I still think it's a good idea to send out enough Warriors to sack the place. It can rebound in population very fast, and it's much harder to get to and sit on food improvements. Though I also put 4 warriors around it, and Asoka only had Warriors, he was still aggressive enough that he was able to kill my marauders. And those religions add a lot of culture points. On turn 94 Dilli had 133% of Babylon's culture points, though I had the Oracle and Dilli had no wonders.

...

@timfi: I've noticed the same aggressive tech trading practices. As near as I can tell, you have to offer the AI techs worth at least 150% of the techs you're requesting before they'll entertain an offer. Absurd offers, like when they'll offer you Archery in exchange for Mathematics, result when none of the other techs they have on hand are sufficiently cheap relative to what you're offering.

I assume this is intentional, to handicap the human player somewhat, but more often in my experience it has the effect of eliminating most tech trading.

EDIT: It still depends to an ungodly degree on luck. For instance, if you use the Stonehenge-CS gambit to pop a GA, you have to gamble on not popping a GProphet instead. (And you have to gamble that Egypt will target the Pyramids instead of Stonehenge.) If you decided to use the Oracle to get Monarchy, you have to gamble that Priesthood won't suddenly become 125 lightbulbs more expensive than it had been. To be relatively assured of reaching techs and buildings in time, you have to skimp on the Warrior stack you send out, which greatly increases the chances that war against either India or China (or both) will go very badly.

guspasho

Aug 30, 2009, 07:52 PM

What kind of units are the Impi, archery or melee? They aren't listed in the Civilopedia.

dragodon64

Aug 30, 2009, 08:20 PM

Melee, they replace Spearmen.

guspasho

Aug 31, 2009, 04:11 AM

I'm playing Mali - does anyone know why I would be able to build a temple but not a monastery of the same religion in the same city? It's not already built and I don't have scientific method.

Panopticon

Aug 31, 2009, 04:29 AM

Either you have Scientific Method or you don't have Philosophy? I'm afraid I can't think of anything else.

guspasho

Aug 31, 2009, 04:35 AM

That's it! I need meditation to build monasteries. Thanks!

Can I win a UHV, continue playing, take over another civ as they spawn, and still win their UHV in the same game?

Panopticon

Aug 31, 2009, 05:34 AM

That's it! I need meditation to build monasteries. Thanks!

Can I win a UHV, continue playing, take over another civ as they spawn, and still win their UHV in the same game?

Of course, you're right, it was Meditation. Most civs don't start with it; I don't know why. I don't think more than one victory is possible in a single game.

Opferlamm

Aug 31, 2009, 05:40 AM

That's it! I need meditation to build monasteries. Thanks!

Can I win a UHV, continue playing, take over another civ as they spawn, and still win their UHV in the same game?

You can play on, but only your first UHV victory will count.

guspasho

Sep 01, 2009, 05:45 AM

What determines how much gold a great merchant trade mission will make me and how can I use this to my advantage to maximize the gold I get?

AnotherPacifist

Sep 01, 2009, 10:37 AM

Depends on the distance of the city from your capital (better if on a different continent), what infrastructure is in it (e.g. markets, grocers, etc) that would increase the trade profit between that city and yours. So a mission to a civ you've traded for a long time and at peace will be more profitable.

See this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=327991

fireclaw722

Sep 03, 2009, 06:56 PM

Where is the defensive pacts coding at because I(unlike many others) like the defensive pacts and want include it into the main part of the game.

The Turk

Sep 17, 2009, 03:26 AM

For Rhye's next patch of RFC, I think one thing that should be implemented is the desertification of the Sahara, as in at 8000 BC let a greater portion of the Sahara be grassland and then at a later date let the desert start to reclaim all the grassland spots, so by the time Arabia comes it will be the normal Sahara desert. This can be created through the same way that, the mountain pass between the Inca and the rest of South America is created when the Europeans come is created.

Panopticon

Sep 17, 2009, 04:49 AM

Cethegus

Sep 17, 2009, 04:51 AM

While it would be a nice sight, what would be the point? Carthage isn't going to settle to Sahara and neither are other civs before it's degraded to what it is now. Also, I think you mean "800 BC". Which is right around when Carthage comes to play anyway.

The Turk

Sep 17, 2009, 05:44 AM

Actually I mean 8000 BC, because we have to remember that the Sahara was not a desert but instead grazing land, which soon turned more and more into desert. the point is first and foremost for historical reasons, and second I don't think Carthage needs a bit of a breather, in the sense that more workable tiles next to it could help Carthage (since desert tiles cannot be worked on), the same for Egypt where I still feel there is too much desert.

I can't think of anything of the top of my head, but the biggest one is probably snow capped Russia, I think more trees and ice/snow should be there and then later on (due to global warming) have the ice and snow be pushed up north and let more grazing land for Russian and Mongolian civs. Another one which I think is quite necessary is the need for more arable land in the Middle East, especially the Mesopotamian region, where did the "Fertile Crescent" go? Now you have the cities of Jerusalem and Sur/Tyre fighting for food when this was supposed to be the most agriculturally reach region. In fact I think that even when the Arabs are you should still have it but then half way through there empire maybe 1200 AD (something like that i'm not sure) you should have the arable land turn into desert, which would then lead to the steady decline of the Arabian Empire, which is VERY historically correct. I think the same for Europe but instead have a type of forest that you can't build improvements on (like RFC Europe) but then once you research a type of technology these forest tiles become workable, then leading Europe for there golden age.

Cethegus

Sep 17, 2009, 09:41 AM

What place would the 8000 BC change have in the mod if it starts in 3000 BC?

I agree about Jerusalem and Tyre being a little more managable, though. I want a Damascus worth something.

The Turk

Sep 17, 2009, 09:49 AM

What place would the 8000 BC change have in the mod if it starts in 3000 BC?

I agree about Jerusalem and Tyre being a little more manageable, though. I want a Damascus worth something.

OOPS! sorry you are 100% correct, same thing 3000 BC it doesn't make a difference, and yes I would also like to see Damascus but in order for that you need to raze Jerusalem which is quite stupid, but I would like to see Jerusalem become a big city during the medieval ages and then when desertification happens in the Middle East I want to see the go under, in the sense that whoever is controlling the region will be greatly weakened (most probably Arabia, which is historically accurate).

blizzrd

Sep 17, 2009, 02:51 PM

Good idea. I wish I knew more about it so I could implement it.

Are there any other major environmental changes we're missing in the mod?

Yes, the freezing of Greenland (which has been brought up before). Around 1000AD there was some grassland in Greenland but this had been frozen over with the spread of the Greenland Ice Cap a few hundred years later.

deanej

Sep 17, 2009, 02:56 PM

The Turk

Sep 17, 2009, 08:05 PM

If the medieval warm period were to be fully represented, the wine in France would have to be moved to England until the start of the Little Ice Age. Russia's UP would be non-functional until that time as well. All of this is due to the higher temperature (higher than even the temperature today).

it doesn't have to be that complicated. All you have to do is cover a lot of productive/food tiles with a new tile "dense forest", dense forest have maybe 1 production or nothing and they cannot be cut down, what this will do is that it will limit the power of Europe until the Renaissance period or until someone researches some technology that allows you to cut down the "dense forest" tile and improve it. But then all the fertile plains of the Middle East will turn to desert and will slowly decrease the strength of the Arabian Empire. I think this has a lot of potential as we will see a much more historical approach to the game, environmentally wise. So if someone could code this into the game that would be fantastic, not to mention I already know that its possible since the Andes mountains disappears to form an entrance for the Europeans into the Inca homeland.

And no wine never grew very well in England in the Medieval period, or at any period, since it was only introduced well into the Middle Ages.

civ_king

Sep 17, 2009, 09:35 PM

What about North Africa being the 'granary' of the Roman Empire? the over farming caused desertification of North Africa, should Carthage have 'better' tiles?

The Turk

Sep 17, 2009, 10:41 PM

What about North Africa being the 'granary' of the Roman Empire? the over farming caused desertification of North Africa, should Carthage have 'better' tiles?

You are absoulty right, and thats why I propose more workable tiles in morroco and pretty much North west africa until the Arabian civ spawns (or earlier) then it should reverted back to desert.

deanej

Sep 18, 2009, 10:49 AM

And no wine never grew very well in England in the Medieval period, or at any period, since it was only introduced well into the Middle Ages.

Not according to the History Channel's documentary on the Little Ice Age.

The Turk

Sep 18, 2009, 11:05 AM

All I'm saying is that it dosn't have to be THAT complicated that we have to start moving around resources just add and remove desert/plains/desnse forest. Its the easiest thing to mod:)

dragodon64

Sep 19, 2009, 02:05 AM

What about North Africa being the 'granary' of the Roman Empire? the over farming caused desertification of North Africa, should Carthage have 'better' tiles?

To the best of my knowledge Anatolia and Egypt were the breadbaskets of the Roman Empire (as well as every other empire which held them), not North Africa.

I think a decent number of the tiles in the levant and anatolia should be changed from plains to grassland to represent the relative fertility in those lands.

Also the fertile crescent isn't quite as fertile as the name implies-- even in the days of Babylon and Assyria it was nothing compared to Egypt, and by the common era soil depletion had weakened the agricultural potential of the land quite a bit.

blizzrd

Sep 19, 2009, 02:54 AM

To the best of my knowledge Anatolia and Egypt were the breadbaskets of the Roman Empire (as well as every other empire which held them), not North Africa.

A quick google search for "breadbasket of Rome" revealed quite a few basket cases. ;)

Sicily, North Africa and Egypt all got multiple mentions.

Personally, I think that some of the references to North Africa actually might be taken to mean Egypt more than the area around Carthage.

ngyuishing

Sep 19, 2009, 04:08 AM

I would like to know how can I disable some victories such as space and cultural as I personally don't like them. Can I do that?

BurnEmDown

Sep 19, 2009, 04:49 AM

I think you need to open the game in custom mode and then you can disable victories and things like that.

ngyuishing

Sep 19, 2009, 08:39 AM

I think you need to open the game in custom mode and then you can disable victories and things like that.

But the custom mode is disabled, right? I can't click it.

Wessel V1

Sep 19, 2009, 08:55 AM

You first have the open the .ini file in the Rhye's and Fall folder. Change "no custom scenario option in main menu: 1" to "... menu: 0). Then you'll be able to play a custom game, and make the changes you wish to make.

ngyuishing

Sep 19, 2009, 09:15 AM

The Turk

Sep 19, 2009, 11:57 AM

Anyways the point is not about what was the "breadbasket" of the Roman Empire I think what my idea would do is that it would let Arabia grow faster at the beginning and weaken Europe as well (so you don't have them researching techs too fast) until around the Renaissance and then have it switch and let desertification take its toll on Arabia and then let dense Northern European forests be cut down enabling there tiles to be improved. If someone could tell me how to transfer a tile from RFC Europe to normal RFC I would gladly test it out to see how the AI would take. For now I'm going to try the test for Arabia and the extra grasslands later becoming deserts, (I will do this on World Builder). I would be very grateful if someone could later code this in or if Rhye could add this into his next patch as I think it would be quite an experience watching the Rise and Fall of the Middle East and Europe.:)

guspasho

Sep 19, 2009, 04:11 PM

Isn't this thread supposed to be for quick questions and answers, not recommendations on what should be in the next version or historical debates?

The Turk

Sep 20, 2009, 01:19 AM

Isn't this thread supposed to be for quick questions and answers, not recommendations on what should be in the next version or historical debates?

I'm asking 2 questions:
1. Does everybody like the idea of environment change?
2a. Does anybody know how to implement this change, if Rhye dosn't do it?
2b. Can you transfer tiles (i.e plains/forest) from RFC Europe to normal RFC? Because I would like to "dense forest" from RFC Europe.

blizzrd

Sep 20, 2009, 03:05 AM

I swear that is three questions.

fireclaw722

Oct 02, 2009, 09:29 PM

Where are the Start Dates File located??

EDIT:Nevermind found it.

The Turk

Oct 02, 2009, 11:02 PM

I swear that is three questions.

It doesn't matter, so once again I ask:

I'm asking 3 questions:
1. Does everybody like the idea of environment change?
2. Does anybody know how to implement this change, if Rhye dosn't do it?
3. Can you transfer tiles (i.e plains/forest) from RFC Europe to normal RFC? Because I would like to "dense forest" from RFC Europe.

Opferlamm

Oct 03, 2009, 01:30 AM

It doesn't matter, so once again I ask:

I'm asking 3 questions:
1. Does everybody like the idea of environment change?
2. Does anybody know how to implement this change, if Rhye dosn't do it?
3. Can you transfer tiles (i.e plains/forest) from RFC Europe to normal RFC? Because I would like to "dense forest" from RFC Europe.

1. yes, why not
2. certainly someone does but not me
3. I think so

monolith94

Oct 08, 2009, 11:17 PM

I'm reading a book about the Gothic war right now, and all throughout, it describes how Sicily supplied Justinian's troops with grain. So that's definitely a contender.

Old Joe

Oct 09, 2009, 01:42 PM

how the dynamic switch works? i dont understand :( i mean everywhere written that i can switch to any civ that being born later through event choice, but i had that event only few times in my game (Japan and Arabia iirc). i just want to start with one civ at 600ad and then switch to, say, spain or ethiopia, but there is no option

blizzrd

Oct 09, 2009, 02:43 PM

You can't switch to a newly spawning civ which is too close in distance to your current civ, or has spawned too close in time to your current civ's spawn.

So if you start as Arabia, I don't think you are allowed to switch to Turkey. If you start as Spain, you can't switch to France.

Ethiopia doesn't exist in the 600AD start, by the way. It can only appear as a respawn, after someone learns Nationalism, and after another civ settles/conqueres the Ethiopian spawn area, and if that civ becomes Unstable.

BakingTheArt

Oct 12, 2009, 12:00 AM

dragodon64

Oct 12, 2009, 03:13 AM

I think switch possibilities are solely based on time era, as in civs can switch to any civ of a latter era if a switch has not already occurred.
4 Ancient civs (obviously can't switch, same spawn date)
7 Classical civs (China to Japan possible, India to Persia possible)
8 Medieval civs (countless possibilities, especially with Rome)
8 Later civs (same as above)

Panopticon

Oct 12, 2009, 04:33 AM

I've been able to switch to Portugal after playing as Spain before. Or at least the pop-up came up, I didn't click it.

Also, i have a question: Why are the Byzantines so super-advanced on the 600 AD start? They'll routinely have Curiassers around 1100, and always win the Liberalism race. The only way to stop them is to take Constantinople, which I have only been able to do with the Turks.

They get lots of techs at the start that contemporary Euro civs lack, don't they? They like building Notre Dame before France is able to, which requires Engineering. They also have Calendar and the entire Aesthetics to Music line. Though normally I see them with Cataphracts rather that Cuirassiers.

Cethegus

Oct 14, 2009, 02:54 PM

PPQ_Purple

Oct 14, 2009, 03:36 PM

Can I release cities to make them into colonies in this mod?
When ever I try they turn into an independant civ.

blizzrd

Oct 14, 2009, 03:39 PM

Can I release cities to make them into colonies in this mod?
When ever I try they turn into an independant civ.

No, colonies as they exist in regular Civ do not exist in RFC.

Panopticon

Oct 14, 2009, 04:07 PM

The space for civs in the DLL is full, so there are no colonies, just independent cities.

dragodon64

Oct 14, 2009, 05:30 PM

You and certain few users should re-think your suggestions and their effect (or lack of) on gameplay before coming suggesting them, like some other poster described it, "for the lulz." I can see no other reason to give them serious consideration.

I really second this. I wish it could be a pop-up before people get to submit new suggestions.

Wessel V1

Oct 15, 2009, 09:40 AM

:agree::agree:

The Turk

Oct 16, 2009, 04:49 AM

The Turk; what would be the point of your suggestion? Even after your proposed changes, the world would look the same as now by the time anyone gets to use those lands. It would be vain work and do nothing to improve the mod, except add a little bling which would be easily overlooked anyway.

You and certain few users should re-think your suggestions and their effect (or lack of) on gameplay before coming suggesting them, like some other poster described it, "for the lulz." I can see no other reason to give them serious consideration.

I think you seriously do not understand what I'm talking about or you need to rephrase you question. These proposed environmental changes will make a better Arabia and Europe for instance in the sense that, it will limit the power of Europe, and at the same time this will allow the Middle East to flourish, but then it will change and desertification will spring up bringing the middle east's food and (to a less extent) hammer production to a slower pace, while in Europe more farm land will become available meaning that there hammer and food production will increase, speeding them up in time for there expansion outside of Europe. I'm not basing these environmental changes on nothing, I'm getting these ideas from actual history, as it is well known that the enviroment is what led to the rise and fall of civilizations.

PS ever read "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Gerad Diamond (if thats how you spell his name), in many respects this project is based on some of his ideas.

PPQ_Purple

Oct 16, 2009, 06:49 AM

I am playing Germany, 600AD start.
The year is 1952, I have completed the first 2 UHVs.
I have all but 4 of my cities runing wealth bringing in at least 2000-3000$ per turn, yet I my economy score is droping.
What is up with this? I thought that more $ per turn = beter economy score.

Wessel V1

Oct 16, 2009, 07:20 AM

Economic stability is based on economic growth. So, you must grow your economy (raw commerce and modified commerce) to get a high stability. With Germany this means growing cottages, scientific and wealth buildings, railroads on mines, etc. When I play a European civ, especially a continental one, my economic stability grows quite a lot in the Industrial era, to about +30 and even +50 with Germany or Russia. Of course that will drop again after the IE, when there isn't so muc left to improve, so it is not that strange your stability drops.

BurnEmDown

Oct 16, 2009, 09:28 AM

Every 3 turns your production, growth, or commerce must grow, so if every 3 turns you build an improvement, one of your cities grow, a building which increases one of these is built, your stability should rise.
Basically it means your workers should always have something to do. Try to not build too many workers or you'll find that all your workable tiles are developed and you can't grow any more. With Germany you should always be expanding so you could try a more "develop, expand, develop, expand, develop, expand" strategy.
Also don't whip too much since it will reduce your economic growth, try to whip when only when in an emergency or when you don't have to worry about it too much.

plastiqe

Oct 16, 2009, 12:55 PM

Hrm so that's how enconomy works, I usually have a huge economic rating but my cities, civics and foriegn ratings bring me down.

I've done a couple of the UHV's, now I'm playing a game as Rome & going to go for one of the regular civ victories (probably domination). I switched to slavery right away and then hereditary rule + organized religion a little later.

I need civic's advice, which ones should I be going for and when is a good time to change them?

PPQ_Purple

Oct 16, 2009, 01:03 PM

Thanks people but I think this mod should come with a detailed manual.
The pedia sais next to nothing about how stability works.

blizzrd

Oct 16, 2009, 02:41 PM

It comes with a detailed wiki. Check it out some time.

PPQ_Purple

Oct 16, 2009, 03:16 PM

Thanks for that, I did not even know a wiki existed.
But I still stand by my opinion that the wiki needs expanding.

deanej

Oct 16, 2009, 08:49 PM

And updating. The wiki is basically always in need of updating. I was hoping that the new wiki would have led to everything being rewritten for the later versions, but then Rhye moved everything from the old wiki over.

JujuLautre

Oct 21, 2009, 02:17 AM

I have absolutely no idea what to search on the forum, so here I ask: does someone know either how to change the main screen so that it displays the full names of the civilizations (like "protectorate of India" and stuff) instead of just the civ name, or else where is the thread where I can find such information?

That said, does anyone else than me have a strange glance screen where the first column is filled with both a leader and the leader's faces? If that is the case I have modified it to display more normally, so I can post it if anyone is interested

agave

Oct 21, 2009, 04:12 AM

You have to modify CvMainInterface.py, which is in the Assets\Python\screens folder.

Find getCivilizationShortDescription (2 instances) and just replace by getCivilizationDescription

Sorry, don't understand the 2nd question, what is the glance screen? :)

Opferlamm

Oct 21, 2009, 04:29 AM

Sorry, don't understand the 2nd question, what is the glance screen? :)

the glance screen shows the relations between the leaders in numbers in one "glance"

agave

Oct 21, 2009, 05:17 AM

Ah, ok, figures, a screen i never bother looking at.
Thanks for the info.

JujuLautre

Oct 21, 2009, 08:18 AM

agave

Oct 21, 2009, 09:05 AM

You're welcome!

But beware, once you're hooked there's no turning back... it adds so much flavor to be able to see the political-diplomatic situation evolve without having to mouse over anything or look into any screen.

While we're on this subject, can anyone tell me in which file the dynamic names are listed?

Panopticon

Oct 21, 2009, 10:24 AM

Dynamic names are located in Assets\XML\Text, as well as the other modified texts. They are controlled by a process in the DLL.

agave

Oct 21, 2009, 02:49 PM

Got it, thanks a lot

JujuLautre

Oct 21, 2009, 08:50 PM

But beware, once you're hooked there's no turning back

I did not intend on turning back any day soon :D

Erufailon

Oct 28, 2009, 06:21 AM

Shine On You Crazy Diamond
by Pink Floyd

I already respected you for all the work you've obviously put into all these mods (I don't have CIV IV yet though), but when I started reading the forum and read this comment my respect increased. Thank you for listening to great music :)

yanner39

Oct 30, 2009, 01:26 PM

This is pretty awesome. A few general questions:

1. This mod essentially has the same victory conditions as the regular CIV4 correct? There are still the unique victory conditions but the general idea is the same? Space Race or Diplo or cultural victories are the same?

2. If you don't achieve your civ's unique victory conditions, you can still win, say the space race for example? Are the unique victories more important than the general victories?

3. Is the game the same number of turns regardless what Civ you choose and what date you start?

4. Probably a dumb question, but let's I'm a noble level player, should I refine my skills even more with CIV4 before I play this? I must that I've tried the mod already and it seems to be the same except for the added concepts such as stability, plague, etc...

Thanks!

BurnEmDown

Oct 30, 2009, 02:17 PM

1. Yes the victories remain the same and the only addition is the UHV.
2. I don't know what you mean but I personally don't like the regular victories and think the UHVs are really cool, all the civs you see in my sig I won with UHV, and I never won with a different type of victory in RFC.
3. No, Since each civ has a different starting date, so if you play as Egypt you'll have a lot more turns than America, which spawns much later.
4.You can always choose the "viceroy" difficulty and the easier civs, (England, France, Germany, Russia, Turkey, Arabia, China, Japan). And once you adjust your play style to the new features you can try other civs.

Arkaeyn

Oct 30, 2009, 02:50 PM

Difficulty level in vanilla Civ4 vs RFC aren't all that connected. RFC's stability system, high levels of barbarians, tweaking for each individual civ, and more make most normal Civ4 strategies less effective in RFC, either in chasing UHVs or in just trying to play normally.

Panopticon

Oct 30, 2009, 03:20 PM

dragodon64

Oct 30, 2009, 03:59 PM

The original victories aren't exactly the same. Domination requires a lot less people and land than it does in normal CIV, although that may be because I never play above large maps there.

Generally speaking, you'll have to rediscover a game style with RFC. Some awesome countries like France and China, allow you to just play normally in terms of economic development, but others, like Egypt and Greece, require strategies that would make normal civ players think you're crazy.

blizzrd

Oct 30, 2009, 05:54 PM

The main strategic difference is that there are lots of "all-rounder" cities in RFC, with lots of resources of each kind, whereas there are few in the unmodified game. So specialisation yields lower returns in RFC than it does in vanilla. The advice to Noble/Prince players about building a "GP farm", "unit factory", etc. doesn't really hold, except for gold.

Spot on with this analysis.

The only specialisation I ever worry about in RFC is putting certain National Wonders in the same city (e.g. Trading Company & Stock Exchange; Iron Works and Red Cross).

yanner39

Oct 30, 2009, 07:19 PM

yanner39

Oct 30, 2009, 07:24 PM

Would there be release notes or anything explaining the stability system or the plague or essentially the new concepts introduced by the mod or it's whatever is in the Civilopedia?

blizzrd

Oct 30, 2009, 07:41 PM

Yes, located at the RFC wiki site.

yanner39

Oct 31, 2009, 05:46 AM

Opferlamm

Oct 31, 2009, 07:00 AM

How can I start off as America? When I load the mod, America is not one of the Civs I can choose, although I can see their info in the Civilopedia. It does say it takes 60 minutes to load.

Is it a situation where I have to play as say the Romans, and then in 1730AD, switch to America?

get the latest version from here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176754) then you can play USA from their spawn

yanner39

Oct 31, 2009, 01:22 PM

get the latest version from here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176754) then you can play USA from their spawn

Thanks for this. Downloaded it, and installed it no problems.

Quick question: Can we change the settings? I noticed in this update, the AI are aggressive. I don't know if I like the sound of that. :) In my first game, as the Romans, I was at War with Carthage and he was basically kicking my but. Also, Gaellic warriors were killing my Legions, even though my Legions were stronger.

Can I change the settings? If not, no big deal. I'll just focus on my military a little more.

JujuLautre

Oct 31, 2009, 07:41 PM

The war with Carthage and the possible bigger number of gallic warriors are not a question of settings. The mod changed a lot between the version shipped with BTS and the actual version.

The Turk

Oct 31, 2009, 09:26 PM

Thanks for this. Downloaded it, and installed it no problems.

Quick question: Can we change the settings? I noticed in this update, the AI are aggressive. I don't know if I like the sound of that. :) In my first game, as the Romans, I was at War with Carthage and he was basically kicking my but. Also, Gaellic warriors were killing my Legions, even though my Legions were stronger.

Can I change the settings? If not, no big deal. I'll just focus on my military a little more.

Here is the link to the changes Rhye has made: http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rhye's_and_Fall_of_Civilization_ch angelog

You can see all the changes that have occurred from vanilla version to this:goodjob:

dragodon64

Oct 31, 2009, 11:16 PM

What exactly are the rules on stability affecting the chance that dead civs will respawn from within your empire? At what level (if any) are you completely safe from respawns.

blizzrd

Nov 01, 2009, 01:36 AM

Try here.

The details listed in the wiki are for Monarch. For Emperor, add one level (i.e. need to be Solid rather than Stable, etc) of stability required for each detail.

dragodon64

Nov 01, 2009, 01:53 AM

Thanks. I had actually just read that before posting, but for whatever reason, I didn't understand it then.

yanner39

Nov 01, 2009, 07:03 AM

The war with Carthage and the possible bigger number of gallic warriors are not a question of settings. The mod changed a lot between the version shipped with BTS and the actual version.

Ah..ok. I just noticed in the settings section that on the settings are set on Aggressive AI. When I play Civ4, I don't click aggressive AI. So you answered my question.

But I guess I can't turn off aggressive AI right?

JujuLautre

Nov 01, 2009, 07:28 AM

it is possible. You need to edit your Rhye's and Fall of Civilization.ini and change NoCustomScenario = 1 to NoCustomScenario = 0. Then you can open "custom scenario" in the main menu.

Be careful though, you can really mess up with the mod by changing the wrong options.

Arkaeyn

Nov 01, 2009, 11:19 AM

And the pacing of the mod is such that without Aggressive AI, you'll rarely see, er, the AI be...aggressive. They're under-aggressive in a historical sense even with it on.

Leoreth

Nov 01, 2009, 11:20 AM

I never felt the RFC AI is as aggressive as a vanilla aggressive AI.

So turning this option off could lead to a boringly peaceful world without many challenges or changes.

Arkaeyn

Nov 01, 2009, 12:21 PM

The plague, barbarians (who are much worse even than Vanilla's raging barbarians), and huge tracts of land for expansion for several civs tend to cause that, I think.

yanner39

Nov 01, 2009, 06:01 PM

All great points and it's true that the mod is intended to mimic actual history. I think I was a little confused when I started my game as the Romans, and was immediately at war with Carthage and Greece. Carthage proceeded to destroy my Galleys and one Gaelic warrior mow down a couple of my Legions. I know if CIV4, Praetorians are strong units so I was caught a little off guard.

Another quick question:

It seem that in my last game, a couple of workers just appeared out of nowhere. Is that possible?

dragodon64

Nov 01, 2009, 06:04 PM

Workers spawn in the capital if it is built within 2 turns (I think) of your spawn date. The number of workers depends on the civ.

yanner39

Nov 01, 2009, 06:12 PM

Workers spawn in the capital if it is built within 2 turns (I think) of your spawn date. The number of workers depends on the civ.

Thanks. :)

Where would I find this type of info?

dragodon64

Nov 02, 2009, 12:15 AM

I think the number of workers per civ is 0 for the first 4 (ancient), 2 for the next 7 (classical), 3 for the next 8 (medieval) and 4 for the last 8 (later). Of course those are generalizations from a few experiences, I'm sure one of the more senior players could give you better info.

yanner39

Nov 02, 2009, 08:05 AM

Leoreth

Nov 02, 2009, 02:48 PM

All great points and it's true that the mod is intended to mimic actual history. I think I was a little confused when I started my game as the Romans, and was immediately at war with Carthage and Greece. Carthage proceeded to destroy my Galleys and one Gaelic warrior mow down a couple of my Legions. I know if CIV4, Praetorians are strong units so I was caught a little off guard.
This is not because of aggressive AI. Rhye has added a chance to be at war with your historical enemies when you spawn. This is done to make civs behave more historically (e.g. Persia attacking Babylon), although it's annoying when you're the Romans.

frog3

Nov 18, 2009, 03:23 PM

Are there any plans to add any other civilizations, such as korea, or byzantine or sumeria, indus valley civ, Iroquois confederacy, etc. Or is what in it final now. really fun game btw

Leoreth

Nov 18, 2009, 05:00 PM

Rhye has decided to leave the set of playable civs as it is.

There are however modmods that replace Maya with Korea or make the 600 AD Byzantines playable.

Zagoroth

Nov 18, 2009, 05:02 PM

If you want an Indus Valley civilization all you need to do is move the Indian settlers start point...

blizzrd

Nov 18, 2009, 05:23 PM

To represent the neolithic Indus valley civ, you would need to wind the start date back to about 5,000 BC (from the current 3,000 BC) and also you would need some worthwhile terrain to settle around the Indus valley, which is currently unpassable marsh surrounded by desert.

In my opinion, the desertification of the Cholistan region should actually appear dynamically somewhere between 2,000BC and 1,000 BC in accordance with the drying up of the Hakra river course at about this time (source).

In the current configuration of RFC, this would have almost no impact on gameplay, but would be historically more accurate

frog3

Nov 18, 2009, 06:13 PM

Rhye has decided to leave the set of playable civs as it is.
Fair enough, can't imagine how long it took to balance. Just to say again I enjoy this map very much and appreciate the work. Thanks!

There are however modmods that replace Maya with Korea or make the 600 AD Byzantines playable.

why delete maya for korea? they are at different locations (sorry I don't know much about the limitations) korea would very fun to play. Can you play from the 3000 unlocked start and then switch to the byzantines? or do I have to start at 600 ad

If you want an Indus Valley civilization all you need to do is move the Indian settlers start point

They still would be indian. Maybe I am not seeing your point

In the current configuration of RFC, this would have almost no impact on gameplay, but would be historically more accurate

I don't know very much about really ancient civs, but it would be fun to have something like the indus valley. When I play egypt, and go and meet the babylonians it has gilgamesh as a leaderhead, but in civ 4 vanilla he is a leader of sumer. does sumer not appear in rhyse and fall because of the time/date constraints? or is it too similar civilzation to babylon. Sorry my history is not so good. But I like the idea of the really ancient civilizations.

blizzrd

Nov 18, 2009, 06:27 PM

does sumer not appear in rhyse and fall because of the time/date constraints? or is it too similar civilzation to babylon.
You have it. Babylon, which conquered/absorbed Sumer historically, can be considered to represent both civilisations in RFC.

frog3

Nov 18, 2009, 06:44 PM

off topic abit why start with the 3000 bc limit, was it for balance or what, not many interesting civs before then (I really need to learn some history :D)

frog3

Nov 18, 2009, 11:12 PM

why cant I play as the greeks then switch to romans?

blizzrd

Nov 18, 2009, 11:13 PM

Because they spawn too close geographically and too close chronologically.

frog3

Nov 18, 2009, 11:17 PM

is there any way to change it so the option comes up

Panopticon

Nov 19, 2009, 03:26 AM

is there any way to change it so the option comes up

There is, but I can't remember whether you need to modify Python or DLL.

Leoreth

Nov 19, 2009, 09:06 AM

why delete maya for korea? they are at different locations (sorry I don't know much about the limitations)
I'm not a modder, but from my understanding it is very difficult to add a completely new civ because civs are referenced by a ID at various parts of the source code, which would all have to be edited to fit in the new one. Replacing a civ is way easier as you simply have to take the "Maya" civ, rename them "Korea" and change colour, flag, leader, city names, UP, UHV, spawn point etc. accordingly. Still not easy, but less work.
The Maya are chosen most because they collapse in most games before any player can meet them, so they have little impact on the game.

korea would very fun to play. Can you play from the 3000 unlocked start and then switch to the byzantines? or do I have to start at 600 ad
Just use the search function for "playable Korea" to find out ... I think they're modded into the 3000 BC scenario.
The Byzantines are only playable in the 600 AD scenario, so you can't switch to them, only select them from the start.

They still would be indian. Maybe I am not seeing your point
The point is that in RFC (and in vanilla BtS too), the concept of civs is an abstraction of cultural or ethnical entities. Even states or nations that have little in common during the course of history (simply compare Qin China, Manchu China and the PRC) are treated as one civ too avoid unnecessary complexity.
That 's exactly the case with the Indus Valley Culture. They never existed parallel to the classical Indians and laid some foundations to Indian culture. So it's legitimate to consider them an early precursor of India.

I don't know very much about really ancient civs, but it would be fun to have something like the indus valley. When I play egypt, and go and meet the babylonians it has gilgamesh as a leaderhead, but in civ 4 vanilla he is a leader of sumer. does sumer not appear in rhyse and fall because of the time/date constraints? or is it too similar civilzation to babylon. Sorry my history is not so good. But I like the idea of the really ancient civilizations.
Sumer existed at the same time as Babylonia, but was conquered after a time that would only make some turns in RFC. So Rhye has decided for the necessary abstraction of Babylonia representing all ancient Mesopotamia.