View Full Version : Mesopotamia


Prestidigitator
Jul 11, 2006, 02:43 PM
Okay, so I’ll use this thread to brainstorm Mesopotamia in Rhye’s of Civilization. Your feedback might affect what gets to be put in the mod (that’s if I can convince Rhye with my ideas ;) ). The listed options are due to probable changes, until we can agree on some things they are all valid.
Nothing is inscribed on stone, all ideas could be implemented when the Warlords expansion would be released.
Some of the artwork is either already made by fellow forum members or will be created later. (ie: I, for one can do the buildings and the units).
As soon as we can get some firm decisions on some of the aspects I will prepare the Civilopedia entries.
I hope everyone with interest in Rhye’s of Civilization would post here, just give your opinion.

So let’s begin…
CIVILIZATION: Babylon.
STARTING YEAR: -earliest- 3’000 BCE.
STARTING TECHS:
1. The Wheel.
2. Agriculture.

(DONE) FLAG DECAL (emblem): Lamassu (winged-bull).
(Un-settled) U P: The Power of Law.
* Reduced or No city resistance after conquest.
+ the Ishtar Gate minor UB, increases culture in the city it is built in.

(DONE) U B: The Edubba -House of Tablets, replaces Library.
(DONE) U U: Babylonian Bowman.
(DONEL H: Hammurabi.

UPDATE: Given that the options are decided by many contributing forum members ;), and the assets have been created and discussed, the project is now COMPLETE!.
The current focus is on: [ Waiting for the Warlords version! ]

Special thanks to the following people for giving me support in the creation of this project:
(in no particular order)
Elhoim,
SilverKnight,
dh_epic,
Gunner,
jbfballrb,
Abman,
Mitsho,
Arkaeyn,
and last but certainly not least, Rhye, for giving me the opportunity to create assets for his Mod!
Thanks Everyone :thumbsup:

Prestidigitator
Jul 11, 2006, 02:54 PM
Leaders:
2. Hammurabi -Founded the Code of Hammurabi, and united Mesopotamia.

Unique Powers:
3. Power of Law -Less civil disorders and easier to build courthouses.

Unique Buildings:
3. Edubba -Believed to be the first schools, meaning ‘House of Tablets’, could increase the probability of GPs and add culture.

Unique Units:
1. Babylonian Bowman -The traditional, no suggested powers yet.

Karam
Jul 11, 2006, 03:45 PM
Sweet! Here is what I think...
Should definately be a playable civ.
I like your choice of Flag, it came with the game right?
LH: Definately Hammurabi!
UP: I like the 'law' one better.
UB: The Edubba.
UU: Should go with the traditional, the Bowman ;) .

I hope this helped

Elhoim
Jul 11, 2006, 04:04 PM
Remember that UB replace old ones... For example, the code of Hammurabi can replace obelisks, and the Edubba can replace libraries.

DSChapin
Jul 11, 2006, 04:06 PM
Some variation of "Power of law" seems the best, but the issue there is that CoL takes a lot of work to get to, and thus Babylonia is unlikely to get it in the period in which it historically existed. So a bonus to Courthouses may not make as much sense as it would seem.

Vishaing
Jul 11, 2006, 05:14 PM
Perhaps Babylon's unique power should be courthouses available from the start and at half cost so they can actually build them that early?

Also, I would vote for the Edubba and have it replace libraries. giving more science and perhaps a GP point in scientist, or prophet

Prestidigitator
Jul 11, 2006, 06:08 PM
It's nice to get early ideas for development...
The Code of Hammurabi was built by the Babylonians and enabling them to build it should be possible in the game for realism.
We either could go with Vashaing's idea of enabling a courthouse since the beginning, or even better maybe enable them to start with code of laws as a tech.

Edubba I thought is also a good idea, the fact that Code of Hammurabi could be a wonder.

Any suggestion for more options?

What do you also think about LH's and UU's? These would be the major ones... :)

Tyranausaurus
Jul 11, 2006, 07:06 PM
About time we have a thread about this subject! ;) I like Prestidigitator's idea about enabling the Code of Laws tech since the beginning.
Here's what I would like to see.
(definately a playable civ).
LH: Hammurabi.
UP: Power of Law.
UB: Edubba.
UU: Babylonian Bowman.

Other than that the whole thing looks great, I would compile a list for you if you wish :) .

Why is Rhye still refraining from answering here?? ;) ;) ?
Having Babylon in the mod would really get me into it!

Vishaing
Jul 11, 2006, 08:02 PM
But enabling Code of Laws itself might be slightly confusing for the AIs because it will open up new tech possibilities. A player would still spend the time to get a quicker tech, but I'm pretty sure the AI researches techs based on an XML rating that doesn't take tech progress into effect.

Of course I could be full of it and the AI might be able to handle it just fine, if so then I would be all for giving them Code of Laws at the beginning.

For a Leader I would prefer Nebuchadnezzar just because he's rarely ever seen, or so it seems to me. If we make Hammurabi's Code a Wonder then Hammurabi shouldn't be a leader in my oppinion because it wouldn't make any logical sense if someone else built the code.

For a UU, definately Babylonian Bownam, after all, the other units already have Unique versions of them. Horse Archers have Mongolian Keshiks and Chariots have Egyptian War Chariots. As for bonuses, perhaps an increased offensive capability to make them able to attack effectively?

Gunner
Jul 11, 2006, 08:53 PM
You could probably use this unit for a Babylonian Bowman.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=164221

Rhye
Jul 12, 2006, 05:30 AM
Why is Rhye still refraining from answering here?? ;) ;) ?
Having Babylon in the mod would really get me into it!


Because it's early.
You can discuss as much as you want now, I'll join the discussion later, when Warlords is out.

Prestidigitator
Jul 12, 2006, 01:03 PM
You could probably use this unit for a Babylonian Bowman.
I already had that in-mind, I have editted the skin and have it ready on my computer. The question is, do we want a Bowman as it is or do we need him on a horse or on a chariot?

Also about UBs, if we could get the choices ready I can start creating them now, I already have the Code of Hammurabi done, the Ziggurat half done, if the preference was for the Library, Palace or the Edubba, then I'll have to start now ;) . What do people think in regards of UUs, UBs and LHs?

[...] it's early.
You can discuss as much as you want now, I'll join the discussion later, when Warlords is out.
Thanks Rhye, I hope to get the ideas done so that you would just simply add them to the mod release, rather than make them yourself.

Let's hope to see more ideas! :)

Vishaing
Jul 12, 2006, 01:06 PM
again, there already are unique units for chariots and horse archers. Also it seems to me that horse archers are available later than the Babylonian height of power, but I know little of Babylonian history.

Prestidigitator
Jul 12, 2006, 01:47 PM
again, there already are unique units for chariots and horse archers. Also it seems to me that horse archers are available later than the Babylonian height of power, but I know little of Babylonian history.

Okay then, that's one thing done, I've editted the first post to include the Babylonian Bowman in. If anyone wants to propose some other units feel free to :) .

Moving on, now we need to set the UB, UP and the Leader. Any ideas?

Karam
Jul 12, 2006, 01:50 PM
A good choice Prestidigitator ;) . I've posted what I think about the other things, I still think the edubba would make a good choice, although I also like the idea of the Code of Hammurabi :p .

Gunner
Jul 12, 2006, 04:27 PM
How about the unique building being the Ziggurat which would replace the monument (the new name for the obelisk in Warlords) and give +1 happiness.

For the leader I'd go with Hammurabi since he's the most famous.

The UP is the most difficult. You need to make sure that its a bonus which would be helpful to the civ at the time when it was historically powerful, meaning the early game. Having early courthouses really wouldn't help much until later when you have a large empire.

My idea would be something where any tile which produces 4 or more food produces an extra one. It could be called either the Power of the Wheel or the Power of Agriculture.

Prestidigitator
Jul 12, 2006, 05:42 PM
Okay, sounds fair to me, I hope we get some more ideas here though... especially about the UP...

It just came to my mind, what about the starting techs? I'm thinking The Wheel is a must-be. about Code of Laws, I've just found out that Writing enables Code of Laws, and the Mesopotamians were the ones to invent writing, so it would be reasonable to have them start with Writing as-well, and by that we can include the code... ;) .

Gunner
Jul 12, 2006, 08:41 PM
Start with writing?!? That would be so overpowered its insane. Civs only start with the first level techs, not expensive ones like writing.

Arkaeyn
Jul 12, 2006, 09:28 PM
I would avoid using Nebuchadrezzar, when I was doing research on his second Babylonian empire for my Sevomod city name project, all his stuff came from the Assyrians. Hammurabi is the traditional Civ choice, and I don't see any reason to divert from him.

Prestidigitator
Jul 13, 2006, 08:17 AM
Start with writing?!? That would be so overpowered its insane. Civs only start with the first level techs, not expensive ones like writing.
I see :crazyeye: , then I think it would be quite simple to decide that they should start with:
1. The Wheel.
(and)
2. Agriculture.
So now that's done. But remember eveything is not set yet, so if anyone disagrees with the choice please post here ;) .

And Arkaeyn, I didn't get what you meant, all Mesopotamian cities overlap and using the Babylonians would anyway mean using a hybrid of Mesopotamian (Iraqi located) cities. But anyway, Hammurabi has been a civ tradition and I think he seems to be a good choice after all.

Any ideas on what his traits should be?
I'm thinking Organized and :confused: what?

Vishaing
Jul 13, 2006, 08:41 AM
You don't need to worry about traits because they don't exist anymore. Although thinking of them might help with deciding what his AI weight and preferences should be.

Prestidigitator
Jul 13, 2006, 03:03 PM
You don't need to worry about traits because they don't exist anymore. Although thinking of them might help with deciding what his AI weight and preferences should be.
Right, right, right! :lol: where have I been? :hmm:.

I'm now working on a leaderhead, I hope to get some preview done sometime in the coming days. The current LH choice is Hammurabi, by most players, the fact that he has been a civ tradition and is probably the most known by the average joe.

Vishaing
Jul 13, 2006, 07:24 PM
By "Working on a LeaderHead", do you mean designing and animating a graphic, or working on the AI code behind it. If you want you can send me a description of what you think Hammurabi is like and I can take a crack at the AI code. I think I know enough about XML and can get a feel for appropriate values from other leaders.

Prestidigitator
Jul 14, 2006, 03:31 PM
By "Working on a LeaderHead", do you mean designing and animating a graphic, or working on the AI code behind it. If you want you can send me a description of what you think Hammurabi is like and I can take a crack at the AI code. I think I know enough about XML and can get a feel for appropriate values from other leaders.
No, I actually meant an animated graphic, that's hopefully what I intend to do, I do not like static images of LHs :).

I'm depicting it on Cyrus, had success deleting the crown, created a Babylonian head-dress and I'm now adding a beard. Wish me luck Vishaing ;) ! And thanks anyway :king: .

I'm hoping to get some preview of what I currently have soon.

Prestidigitator
Jul 14, 2006, 07:03 PM
Okay, so it didn't turn out as I was hoping it would; seems that we are far away from the stage where we could 'create' or 'alter' current LHs, or even create ones, not even with 3Ds Max :( .

So... not waiting any longer, I started creating the LH with a more 'certain' way, I simply began adding other objects to it to change appearance.
It seems that we cannot get rid of Cyrus' crown, but I guess, we'll have to do with it...

Here is what I am planning, shouldn't take long, I have already made the background (animated), and currently began texturing the LH. Here is a very early preview with the beard (I made it) un-textured yet.
132558

Arkaeyn
Jul 14, 2006, 08:22 PM
If you can, I suggest looking for leaderheads that Rhye doesn't use, and slightly modding them. I'm not too keen on seeing 5 different Cyruses running around.

I don't think there's anyone good for Hammurabbi - maybe Ramses II when he shows up? but just a general idea

Prestidigitator
Jul 14, 2006, 09:12 PM
If you can, I suggest looking for leaderheads that Rhye doesn't use, and slightly modding them. I'm not too keen on seeing 5 different Cyruses running around.

I don't think there's anyone good for Hammurabi - maybe Ramses II when he shows up? but just a general idea
I know what you mean, but I think Cyrus is the best fit, I have thought about Ramses, but then again most probably the head-dress won't be a separate object, like Cyrus' crown.

I'm not sure, I'll hopefully finish the LH for Hammurabi tomorrow evening, and I'll be posting a screenshot. When Warlords will come out we'll see what we can do.

I might as-well start working on that UU, everytime I finish some asset I'll be posting a preview for you guys to look at and comment upon ;) .

Good night for now!

Drtad
Jul 14, 2006, 10:06 PM
Have you checked out Amra's modpack? It has a Hammurabi leaderhead that you can use based on Cyrus.

Prestidigitator
Jul 15, 2006, 06:39 AM
Have you checked out Amra's modpack? It has a Hammurabi leaderhead that you can use based on Cyrus.
I was looking at it last night, I've seen the LH, but with all due respect to Amra ;) , the LH is just a re-skin. What I plan to do is reskin Cyrus and add some objects to the LH.

As I said I'm hoping to post a preview soon.

Vishaing
Jul 16, 2006, 10:22 AM
Again, would you like help with the XML coding of the AI preferences for Hammurabi? I would like to help, and someone needs to do it. If so though, I need a description of what Hammurabi was like and what exactly he did to base the preferences on.

Prestidigitator
Jul 16, 2006, 07:45 PM
Vishaing, I really appreciate your will to help out, but I think it is still to early to starting creating the XML. I would prefer waiting for Warlords to adjust the XML files, so that we don't have to update it when it gets released with the new files.

After I create the graphic assets I will certainly ask for your help ;)!

Vishaing
Jul 16, 2006, 09:08 PM
Ah, yes. That. Good point. It's at times like these that I'm gald I'm lazy, otherwise I probably would have already started on the XML that might just get wasted pointlessly.

Prestidigitator
Jul 17, 2006, 09:22 AM
I am nearly done modeling the Ziggurat, I'll have to finish it tonight and hopefully texture it soon.

Prestidigitator
Jul 17, 2006, 11:43 AM
An idea just struck me, browsing through the forums and looking at the other UBs Warlords will bring, I've noticed that all UBs are NOT AT ALL wonders :(. If the Ziggurat was to be in, it will have to be an ordinary building, it would not be named the 'Ziggurat of Ur-Nammu', instead it would just be a Ziggurat, with the shape as a generic one.

Does anyone still think the Edubba is a better idea? until I get some answers I will start modeling the Edubba.

Ideas?

Karam
Jul 17, 2006, 11:46 AM
[...] Does anyone still think the Edubba is a better idea? [...] I will start modeling the Edubba.

Ideas?
I do, the Edubbas were arguably the first schools built for the public on Earth, some Edubbas date back to the 4th millenium BC, I think it should be in :) .

Prestidigitator
Jul 17, 2006, 04:09 PM
Okay, anyone else with an opinion they'd like to share here?

Prestidigitator
Jul 27, 2006, 04:42 AM
Time to bump this thread up!

Well, actually, I wanted to show you guys what I have done in-terms of the Leader Head...
After alot of extensive work :p, I made Cyrus into Hammurabi! It's not quite done yet (notice the beard), but I'll be posting an in-game screenshot if many people thought it was good enough. I've also done the background.

NOTICE: I've had success removing Cyrus' crown :D!

Here it is:
133814
I'm eager to know what everyone thinks, now that Warlords is out, maybe Rhye can give opinions too... ;)

Tyranausaurus
Jul 27, 2006, 06:24 AM
:wow: good enough? that looks EXCELLENT! Finally the pack of cigars on top of his head is gone!
I think this should make it into the mod, you must get started on the other assets now! :goodjob:

Prestidigitator
Jul 27, 2006, 09:07 AM
Thanks Tyranausaurus! Any suggestions anyone?

Elhoim
Jul 27, 2006, 11:43 AM
It is a great work! For nitpicking I can say:

- Darken the eyebrows to a color similar of the beard.
- Perhaps try to join the beard and hair.
- It would make it more different from Cyrus if you could remove the moustache.
- More detail in clothes, a darker or less saturated blue with gold trims perhaps would be nice.
- Some more detail to the hat.

If you want any help with it, talk to me. I have some experience with photoshop and textures. :)

But still, it is a great work!!! Keep it up!! :D

abman
Jul 27, 2006, 11:58 AM
I think that's a great mod of Cyrus! He looks totally different without the crown!
I think adding a mesopotamian civ should be the #1 priority for this mod after the 18 civ cap is gone. I hate how the cradle of civilization is all barbarian at the beginning of the game.
Question: I've looked into creating units with blender, but haven't checked how hard it is to add new leaderheads. If there is a sufficiently detailed model out there, could it be added as a totally new leaderhead? I was thinking Proog, one of the character's in Elephant's Dream (http://www.elephantsdream.org/) would be a good start for a civ4 leaderhead. Since that cartoon is open-source, all the models are available and free for uses like this. It might be good to have a new model as the basis for a new civ.

Prestidigitator
Jul 27, 2006, 05:49 PM
It is a great work!
Thanks Elhoim!
For nitpicking I can say:
- Darken the eyebrows to a color similar of the beard.
* This will be done soon.
- Perhaps try to join the beard and hair.
* Samething, will try to do it soon.
- It would make it more different from Cyrus if you could remove the moustache.
* The problem with this is, deleting the moustache would leave two holes above the mouth, where the moustache should exist. So sorry, I can't do that.
- More detail in clothes, a darker or less saturated blue with gold trims perhaps would be nice.
* Will see what I can do, the dress looks Babylonian enough, but the colours do not, I will hopefully change them.
- Some more detail to the hat.
* The hat is modelled according to several pictures of Hammurabi, and it should have looked simple just like the one in the previous screenshot, so I guess I will leave it as it is ;).
If you want any help with it, talk to me. I have some experience with photoshop and textures.
But still, it is a great work!!! Keep it up!!
Well honestly, I'm not all too happy with the beard texture, it should be curly, I'll ask for you help when I finish the LH ;).

Prestidigitator
Jul 27, 2006, 05:52 PM
I think that's a great mod of Cyrus! He looks totally different without the crown!
I think adding a mesopotamian civ should be the #1 priority for this mod after the 18 civ cap is gone. I hate how the cradle of civilization is all barbarian at the beginning of the game.
Question: I've looked into creating units with blender, but haven't checked how hard it is to add new leaderheads. If there is a sufficiently detailed model out there, could it be added as a totally new leaderhead? I was thinking Proog, one of the character's in Elephant's Dream (http://www.elephantsdream.org/) would be a good start for a civ4 leaderhead. Since that cartoon is open-source, all the models are available and free for uses like this. It might be good to have a new model as the basis for a new civ.
Abman, I've talked to Rhye and he said Babylon will be in the mod as-long as the Assets are provided, and this is what I'm working on right now.

In terms of LH creation and Blender, I use Blender alot, but right now it is quite hard and time-consuming to create a LH from scratch, or even change it a little. I think Cyrus would make a good LH for the mod, and I think it looks distinct after the alterations.

SilverKnight
Jul 27, 2006, 06:14 PM
This looks great! Although I sense some confusion in the future about Cyrus' brother's rival empire! :lol: They are so close to each other, they seem related. Great work, can't wait to see it in RFC! :goodjob:

SilverKnight

Prestidigitator
Jul 27, 2006, 06:57 PM
Thanks SilverKnight, it all depends when RFC for Warlords will be made. Rhye and ideas? If it'll be soon I'll have to hurry up my project ;)!

Elhoim
Jul 27, 2006, 10:28 PM
There are also many unique units in Warlords, especially archers and stuff. Perhaps you could also find there one for Babylon.

Prestidigitator
Jul 28, 2006, 06:22 AM
There are also many unique units in Warlords, especially archers and stuff. Perhaps you could also find there one for Babylon.
Ah, for that I'm not sure, I haven't looked into units suitable for Babylon in Warlords. But I've seen a unit created by (I think) Ploepangel, which is a Babylonian Bowman and looks quite well. I'm thinking of changing it around a bit and then posting a screenie.

BTW, any more suggestions in regards of the UB AND the UP?

abman
Jul 28, 2006, 09:11 AM
Back to the UP for a sec: I like the Power of Law, but think it needs a better effect than just making courthouses cost less. What if there was no disorder in cities after conquering? Would that be TOO powerful?

jbfballrb
Jul 28, 2006, 11:17 AM
The problem with this is, deleting the moustache would leave two holes above the mouth, where the moustache should exist. So sorry, I can't do that
couldnt you lighten the mustache color? i cant see it well from that picture, so if it sticks out from the face i guess that wouldnt work....
Back to the UP for a sec: I like the Power of Law, but think it needs a better effect than just making courthouses cost less. What if there was no disorder in cities after conquering? Would that be TOO powerful?
it wouldnt be too powerful, i dont think, because they would still have to contend with maintenance. although it might be better as just 1 or 2 turns rather than none...

Gunner
Jul 28, 2006, 11:45 AM
Back to the UP for a sec: I like the Power of Law, but think it needs a better effect than just making courthouses cost less. What if there was no disorder in cities after conquering? Would that be TOO powerful?
I think that is a very elegant and useful idea for a UP. Its usefulness would also match up with the time when Babylon was historically powerful, as opposed to any bonus to courthouses.

Prestidigitator
Jul 28, 2006, 01:30 PM
I really like your idea Abman, and it was true, when Hammurabi united southern Mesopotamia he did it with the power of his famous code... So it would also be historically accurate to give the Babylonians this power, especially under Hammurabi.

Jbfballrb, the moustache does stick out abit, ie: it is a semi-attached object to the face... I tried doing the same thing again, but it didn't work. But I guess the moustache wouldn't be very much a problem.

Now that we got rid of the UP (thanks to Abman ;) ), I just need to know what you guys think should be the Unique Building...
1. The Edubba (replaces Library).
2. The Ziggurat (replaces the Monument).

abman
Jul 28, 2006, 02:38 PM
Now that we got rid of the UP (thanks to Abman ;) ), I just need to know what you guys think should be the Unique Building...
1. The Edubba (replaces Library).
2. The Ziggurat (replaces the Monument).

Oooh... tough call! What would either do?
Back at the beginning of the thread you suggested Edubba is a library that adds GPP to the city. I think that would be a bit overpowered. But that was probably because you were considering it a Wonder. No regular buildings generate GPP, do they?
Would a ziggurat be an obelisk with +1 happy? That seems okay.

Prestidigitator
Jul 28, 2006, 05:00 PM
Abman, no, the Edubba literally means "House of Tablets". It was a school and a library in ancient Mesopotamia (that is Babylon, Sumeria and Assyria).

I suggested that the edubba would be a building (not a wonder), replacing the library, it would generate more science, sort of like this:

+3 culture
+50% science
Can turn 3 citizens into scientist
Required to build University, National Epic, The Great Library.
... That's a little over what a library does, and it should be reasonable... what do you think?

Prestidigitator
Jul 28, 2006, 05:18 PM
Talking about UBs, I've already started a Ziggurat model in the last two weeks, it's based on the Ziggurat of Ur-Nammu. I thought if you guys decided upon the Ziggurat as a UB, perhaps we could use it for the mod.
Here is an incomplete screenshot... I hope to get some ideas about the UB :(, should it an edubba or a Ziggurat?
Ziggurat:
134020

Gunner
Jul 28, 2006, 06:39 PM
Great job on that building! I would go with replacing the library. Egypt already gets a replacement for the monument.

Its stats need revison, however. Look at the types of bonuses that the other UB's in Warlords have received. They're all along the lines of about a 10-15% bonus over the original, not the 25% you have. I think better stats would be:
+3 culture
+35% science
Can turn 2 citizens into scientists.
Required to build University, National Epic, The Great Library.
Keep in mind that any bonus to the library building is really huge since just about every city in your empire is probably going to build one.

Prestidigitator
Jul 28, 2006, 07:01 PM
Thanks Gunner, I like the stats you gave, makes more sense, I will be using them. As for the building, I guess then we will have to go with the Edubba. So Ziggurat be gone!

I will have to start modelling the Edubba today, it shouldn't be something grand, after all, it was just a school. I have just found some good photos of Mesopotamian architecture, I will try to incorporate them to create a reasonably good Edubba :).

I will be posting progress soon.
BTW, the Babylonian civ colour should be Dark Blue right? I think it is the most suitable.

abman
Jul 29, 2006, 10:26 AM
Bit off topic, but I think you should add an article on Edubbas to wikipedia. There isn't one right now! Sounds like you've done enough research to write something on the topic. :)

UglyBoy
Jul 29, 2006, 01:29 PM
I like the Edubba idea of replacing library but personally I would say the UB has to be the Ziggurat. It's much more iconic and recognisable as a Mesopatamian building. If you asked me, and I think many others too, what building they would relate to Mesopotamia the Ziggurat would be it. Edit: The Ziggurat should replace the temple I'd reckon.

Oh and Abman here's a small bit from wikipedia on Edubba: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia_schools

Prestidigitator
Jul 29, 2006, 04:27 PM
Abman, thanks, but I do not trust Wikipedia in anything. I prefer to take information (especially historical) from trusted encyclopedias and reference websites.

UglyBoy, I agree, the ziggurat has always taken its place in Mesopotamian history, and as you say, it is iconic. The ziggurat would replace the monument if it would be in the mod. The edubba, however, I think would fit well, the Babylonians (I mean the civilizations of Iraq), built the first schools in humanity, I should probably say schools that were open to the public. I think edubbas would be quite unique and would serve Babylon well.

With that been said, if I get good reasons to include the ziggurat instead of the edubba in the mod, I would certainly do it :).

Prestidigitator
Jul 29, 2006, 08:02 PM
I present thee, the Edubba!
BTW, this is just the beta, my first incomplete attempt, this is not at all finished, I will be adding some stairs and possibly some assets on top.
The Edubba:
134143

SilverKnight
Jul 29, 2006, 10:23 PM
I like the modified stats of the Edubba. It represents how powerful the Babylonians were at the time, and generally frees up their resources a bit more for their economy. Also, allowing specialists only helps large, advanced civilizations more, not small growing ones. With the ability to farm floodplains before Biology (I think) gone in the mod, Babylon wont have the extra food to have that many specialists in the game anyway.

In short, I vote the Edubba as the Babylonian UB. :goodjob:

SilverKnight

P.S.- What's wrong with Wikipedia? It might have its shortcomings, but it's the largest and best known open-source knowledge project around. Couldn't hurt to contribute. If you send me your info, I can write up a nice article for ya, but I'd rather you did it. :king:

Prestidigitator
Jul 30, 2006, 07:19 AM
Okay, for now I will put the Edubba as the UB, it will also be unique, as no other civilization will build a replacement for the library at the time, (Arabia doesn't start until three and a half milleniums later).

:lol:, regarding Wikipedia, I don't like the fact that anyone can edit, besides, MANY information overthere is sometimes WAY TOO wrong :lol:. I prefer the Enclyclpedia Britannica and the Encarta Encyclopedia, both are great referece guides.

Prestidigitator
Jul 30, 2006, 11:36 AM
Okay, given that we're standing on solid ground, I present thee, the second edition of the Edubba!
I just need to skin it now, no big deal, I hope you guys like the design :).
The Edubba Model:
134228

mitsho
Jul 30, 2006, 12:30 PM
Have we decided about the Unique Power yet? Imho it should represent how Babylon (Or rather Mesopotamia, as we are talking more of a representative of the region) was the first civ to have "large scale organized agriculture supporting an organized administration", in other words an "empire". What does an organized administration define? Structure, rules like the Codex of Hammurabi, the law (that we agreed before upon) and an bureaucracy to control it. This translates especially well into one aspect of the game: The specialists.
Therefore, I would give the babylonians, (similar to Greece) a free specialist per town until a certain time, for example the classical age. That wouldn't be too powerful, would it? About the name: It could be anything from the Power of the law to agriculture or administration.

mitsho

SilverKnight
Jul 30, 2006, 01:27 PM
That looks great, Prestidigitator! Simple and different, fits with the theme of the region. :thumbsup:

All I see left to do for Babylon are:
Building style of cities
Music in diplomacy screen (would LOVE to hear something unique for Hammurabi, eventually), also present when zoomed in to cities
Button and mini-button for the Edubba
City list
Leader traits (Organized and Protective?)
Favorite civics
Color (dark blue sounds good to me, just making sure)
SilverKnight

Prestidigitator
Jul 30, 2006, 04:50 PM
Thanks SK, I'm glad you liked it :).
as for the list you compiled...
All I see left to do for Babylon are:

Building style of cities
Music in diplomacy screen (would LOVE to hear something unique for Hammurabi, eventually), also present when zoomed in to cities
Button and mini-button for the Edubba
City list
Leader traits (Organized and Protective?)
Favorite civics
Color (dark blue sounds good to me, just making sure)SilverKnight
1. Building styles wouldn't be present, they are not presented in Civ4. Even if they were, Babylon would adapt to the Arabian/ Middle Eastern city art.

2. Ah, music, I came across a very good piece of music, sounded both ancient and modern. Would work perfectly for Babylon. I might as-well post a sample later ;).

3~6. Those would eventually be created, when the graphic assets are completed.

7. Yep, the colour is dark blue, the traditional as I would like to call it. I will post a preview of the flag. You just remided me to create a button for the Babylonian Empire.

Thanks SilverKnight, that list really helped alot :D.

Arkaeyn
Jul 30, 2006, 04:52 PM
The city list isn't really that important - the cities are already there.

Prestidigitator
Jul 30, 2006, 04:52 PM
Have we decided about the Unique Power yet? Imho it should represent how Babylon (Or rather Mesopotamia, as we are talking more of a representative of the region) was the first civ to have "large scale organized agriculture supporting an organized administration", in other words an "empire". What does an organized administration define? Structure, rules like the Codex of Hammurabi, the law (that we agreed before upon) and an bureaucracy to control it. This translates especially well into one aspect of the game: The specialists.
Therefore, I would give the babylonians, (similar to Greece) a free specialist per town until a certain time, for example the classical age. That wouldn't be too powerful, would it? About the name: It could be anything from the Power of the law to agriculture or administration.

Mitsho, I can't really decide upon that, I was hoping Rhye would show-up and give a hand on these things. I don't know what he would think to be balanced or proper. I thought the 'Power of Law' (posted in the first thread), was good.

I'm hoping Rhye would come and help in this matter...

mitsho
Jul 30, 2006, 04:58 PM
It's a good idea, but completely useless for the babylonians in the game probably. And it doesn't simulate where Mesopotamia was good at. imho... that's why I proposed the "free specialist per city for the first era" which does seem balanced to me.

m

Gunner
Jul 30, 2006, 05:19 PM
I was just wondering what you were going to do to differentiate the French dark blue from the Babylonian dark blue. It might be better if we chose a color which isn't already taken.

One good color that hasn't been taken would be some type of salmon color.

Prestidigitator
Jul 30, 2006, 06:14 PM
Okay, it's finally here! The edubba in its final stage!
The Edubba:
134341
What are your thoughts?

Mitsho, I would leave this to Rhye. I don't know why he isn't giving suggestions to this matter until now :undecide:. I hope he would join the discussion about UPs.

Gunner, aww man, I just realized that, I would rather Babylon be either some dark shade of blue of some dark shade of red... any ideas of colours?

Elhoim
Jul 30, 2006, 10:27 PM
It very good! Perhaps it´s the lack of lighting, but I would make it of a brighter stone and perhaps add some simple decorartion to it, like some red or blue lines. But I´m nitpicking as always, as the model and textures are very good!

Gunner
Jul 31, 2006, 12:55 AM
Ok, I had a new color idea .... Teal!
Just throwing that out there ;)


Wow its late, I'm off to bed :sleep:

Arkaeyn
Jul 31, 2006, 01:10 AM
I'm okay with returning the French to pink/salmon, I'm used to that from Civ3.

SilverKnight
Jul 31, 2006, 03:14 AM
I would much rather see a second blue (or third, counting Inca's, which is far lighter) than a third red after England and Rome. Maybe gold, brighter than Mali's.

Also, I did imagine a lighter color to the edubba, as well. Will it show up in the game under a different lighting? Mesopotamian (sp?) buildings put me in mind of tan mud bricks. As for texture and detail, it looks amazing! :rockon: :cooool: :rockon: I especially like the semi-random assortment of items around and on top of it. What are those things on the roof, anyway?

As for the UP, someone already mentioned that the Babylonians were known for being one of the first lasting empires to organize the gathering of food under local and central systems, as well as their innovations in law. This signifies that Babylon was efficient for its time in harvesting, and ingenious with regards to keeping order. Their UP should represent both of these. The Courthouse comes later in the game than Babylon's peak, but their may be another option.

I submit for your perusal, the Power of Management--tiles producing 2 food produce 1 more, and +1 happy faces in all cities, "We agree to abide by our fair laws." The extra food will go to specialists anyways, helping Babylon's economy, and the extra happiness will keep the population happy enough to be useful. This seems representative of the empire, what do you think?

SilverKnight

Prestidigitator
Jul 31, 2006, 06:07 AM
Thanks everyone, if it wasn't for your assistance I wouldn't have gone anywhere with this project ;).

Elhoim, I enjoy hearing your 'nitpicking' comments, it helps me improve the work. I will see what I can do in terms of adding more light to the model.

In regards to the team colour, teal wasn't really a Babylonian colour, Dark blue should be it, with the winged-bull in gold colour. It is up to Rhye to decide that, and I hope he would show up soon to settle the issue.

SK, the model was my imagination of what an edubba must have looked like, except for the vent in the ceiling and the rooftop door (because these are typical ancient Mesopotamian). The items at the top are supposedly mud bricks and clay tablets for the edubba :p. I'm glad you liked them :).

Now that you've mentioned it, the Ziggurat was used to sort food across the city, as well as being the central temple of the city. I think what you've put in sounds good. But when will Rhye show up here??? I'm still waiting, he is the only one who can carve the UPs on solid rock.
Oh and I will be posting a screenshot soon of what the edubba 'will' look like ;).

mitsho
Jul 31, 2006, 07:17 AM
Rhye will show up here, when warlords is debugged (ready to be modded without further patches coming along, as atm it is the case with vanilla civIV) and the Catapult is standing and functioning (meaning Rhye's and Fall of Civilization IV).

The intention of this thread is probably more to be able to present him then a possible implementation of the Babylonians, one could as well start threads on how the other warlord civs (from Turks to the Vikings) could fit into the mod, - or entirely different, if there is a possibility to include other civs which have to be created first (Khmer as Southeastasia is a bare place, what about Tibet?).

mitsho

PS: I personally would find the Turks very interesting, as they would've to start in central Asia with quite large an invasion force and then conquer their homelands (or not;))!

Prestidigitator
Jul 31, 2006, 09:09 AM
The intention of this thread was to gather ideas on how to implement Babylon, and to discuss the assets created. My will, at the end, is to create and compile a package for Rhye to place in the mod which makes Babylon a civ just like all the others, with a UB, a UP, an animated and unique LeaderHead and all the XML info ;).

I have no intention of creating any other Civs. If anyone wants to do one it might be nice, but my only focus is on Mesopotamia... I hope to get this project done by the end or mid August.

Drtad
Jul 31, 2006, 10:16 AM
I have an idea for the unique power, it might be a bit wild but it would make Babylon much more powerful in the beginning of the game:

The Power of Marduk: As long as you stay with no state religion (pagan,Marduk polytheism) all your military units get the Power of Marduk (or possibly blessed of Marduk) promotion, increasing their strength by 20%.

It might not be realistic, but it would work.

Prestidigitator
Jul 31, 2006, 10:57 AM
Drtad, I prefer to stick with absolute realism, your idea would work for a historical fantasy mod... ;)

And on a second thought, I will leave the UP until Rhye can join in the discussion later on...

Gunner
Jul 31, 2006, 12:06 PM
For the UP I really like the idea of no resistance time.

Just wondering, but why are you so attached to the dark blue color? How would you know what the 'national color' of Babylon was when it was so long ago? I think it would be better to choose a new color rather than bringing the total number of blues up to 3 (France, America, Babylon.) And then there is also the Persian color which is blueish kinda.

Prestidigitator
Jul 31, 2006, 01:27 PM
Just wondering, but why are you so attached to the dark blue color? How would you know what the 'national color' of Babylon was when it was so long ago?
:lol: :lol:, well, I have once read in the British Museum some of the colours that were more common in the Mesopotamian civilization. I think it was Yellow, Dark-Blue and some others I can't remember. Besides, if you have ever seen the tiles on the Ishtar Gate or the Wall of Babylon, you would notice the dominant dark blue colour ;).

Anyway, any other suggestions for colour? I need to have a rigid idea so that I can start making the buttons for the flag.

Prestidigitator
Jul 31, 2006, 08:29 PM
One last screenshot for the day. The edubba, I've brightened up the texture, added more lighting and placed a Babylonian tiling on the walls.
I spent a lot of time trying to get the tiling to work as it should, and it finally did.

All suggestions are welcome :), if this gets approval I will export to NIF and start creating the buttons in no-time. I will also be posting an ingame screenshot for you guys to see exactly how it should look like in the game.
Here it is...:
134462

Gunner
Jul 31, 2006, 09:00 PM
Wow, that building looks great. Good job Prestidigitator :goodjob:

SilverKnight
Aug 01, 2006, 12:44 AM
Awesome, looks absolutely perfect! :clap:

For colors, I vote dark blue and gold. The flags would be different enough to warrant the similarity to the others, and how many French or American cities would be nearby anyway?

Besides, the colors can be changed later, once the civ is in the game and be balanced. This is pretty exciting, I'm glad Babylon is ascending to its rightful place in Rhye's and Fall of Civ! :yeah:

SilverKnight

Prestidigitator
Aug 01, 2006, 06:00 AM
Thanks Gunner and SK! I'm glad you both liked it :). Now to the next step, exporting and creating the buttons.

I agree on the Blue with a golden emblem, as SK said, France and the US are far enough from Babylon to the extent they are recognizable enough.
We'll see :).

abman
Aug 01, 2006, 09:52 AM
Looks great! I like the wheel leaning against the wall. That's a nice touch. Very nice texture on the building too.

SilverKnight
Aug 01, 2006, 10:25 AM
BTW, IIRC, IMHO, BBQZOMG (etc.) I believe that is the first wheel, too.

:rotfl:

Oh... I crack myself up. In other news, what about a city list? They still need one, even if traditionally they never expanded much. As the player, I'd like the option of building realistic-sounding cities where I want to. Maybe Akkad will end up in Russia or something.

SilverKnight

Rhye
Aug 01, 2006, 11:45 AM
sorry if I haven't been partecipating, but I'm really too busy know with real life matters and the spare time I have, I dedicate to bugfixing 1.00.

I will join later, you can keep up the good work!

Prestidigitator
Aug 01, 2006, 12:05 PM
sorry if I haven't been partecipating, but I'm really too busy know with real life matters and the spare time I have, I dedicate to bugfixing 1.00.

I will join later, you can keep up the good work!
I will, :) take your time Rhye, I'm sure the work that will be produced will be pleasing.

SK, :lol:, a coincidence! I never thought about that when adding the wheel!
Regarding the City List, I will post a plotted map showing the locations of all the cities, I will post the names in Babylonian...

Phallus
Aug 02, 2006, 05:05 AM
These ideas are brilliant. How are you planning to approach the issue of a leaderhead?

jbfballrb
Aug 02, 2006, 05:22 AM
he already made one based off of cyrus

Phallus
Aug 02, 2006, 05:32 AM
Sorry, don't know how I missed that. Were Elhoim's suggestions considered?

Prestidigitator
Aug 02, 2006, 07:08 AM
Phallus, if you check the 3rd page of this thread you'd see my responses to Elhoim's suggestions. Some were, others I didn't see the need to.

Anyway, I'm still working on the final touches on the edubba, I will then start working on the Unique Unit, it has been done by forum member 'Notarz', I just have to fix somethings in it. The LeaderHead would come at the end. I fired up civ last night and checked the incomplete LH, it actually looked better than it did in the screenshot I posted, so stay tuned! :)

Rhye
Aug 02, 2006, 11:11 AM
If you can, I suggest looking for leaderheads that Rhye doesn't use, and slightly modding them. I'm not too keen on seeing 5 different Cyruses running around.

I don't think there's anyone good for Hammurabbi - maybe Ramses II when he shows up? but just a general idea

for your information, I am definitely using Ramesses in Warlords to replace that alien-like Hatshepsut

And, I will probably use Augustus and Stalin too, so you could have considered using Caesar or Peter as the base, as they don't have any hat and just need you to add Hammurabi's hat, beard and do a reskin.

But I guess it doesn't matter, now that your Cyrus's evil twin already looks awesome!! :goodjob: (sorry for commenting it so late, I didn't notice it)

Gunner
Aug 02, 2006, 11:45 AM
for your information, I am definitely using Ramesses in Warlords to replace that alien-like Hatshepsut
Oh thank god. Hatshepsut is such an aweful leaderhead.

Prestidigitator
Aug 02, 2006, 11:49 AM
It was my guess that Ramesses would be in the mod, he is too important to be left out...
Thanks Rhye, I have spent such an awful time trying to figure out how to get rid of Cyrus' crown, until I had it right. Besides, I think he looks great now, just a few additions and he will be ready to be put in the mod!

But as I said earlier, I won't start the LH until later, I will be doing the UU after the UB... :)

Rhye
Aug 02, 2006, 01:20 PM
If the current state is the same of the latest screenshot, I would suggest changing the mustache.

If you say you can't get rid of them, then try to change their shape or fill the gap above the centre of the mouth and the rest of the facial hair that's missing

Prestidigitator
Aug 02, 2006, 02:35 PM
If the current state is the same of the latest screenshot, I would suggest changing the mustache.

If you say you can't get rid of them, then try to change their shape or fill the gap above the centre of the mouth and the rest of the facial hair that's missing
The thing is, that is beyond my powers :p!, it is confirmed that it is impossible at the moment to change or create LH, not even with 3ds Max.

What I've done, is that I made the crown an invisible object, so it is there, it's just that we can't see it. Making the moustache invisible would leave two holes above the mouth, I can't cover the holes without 3D access, and that, at the moment is impossible with Leader Heads.

Prestidigitator
Aug 02, 2006, 02:49 PM
And now, before any of you could have ever guessed, I present thee...

134602

134603

134604

What do you think? ;)

SilverKnight
Aug 02, 2006, 02:59 PM
:cheers: Looks great! Proposed stats/abilities? And I assume it replaces the archer.

SilverKnight

Gunner
Aug 02, 2006, 02:59 PM
Hey that looks pretty good :thumbsup:

Prestidigitator
Aug 02, 2006, 03:22 PM
Thanks guys! I'll have to give credit to forum member Notarz, for he was the one who did the hat and beard. I just added the team colour template.

What do we think about the stats and the abilities?

SK, you're definately right, it replaces the Archer.

Elhoim
Aug 02, 2006, 05:28 PM
Wow, the edubba looks perfect! There is nothing I can say about it! :D

About the archer, I´ve already met him in the Ancient Mediterranean thread, and it is very good! Personally I find the beard a little too wide, but that´s it. It´s very good!

Prestidigitator
Aug 02, 2006, 05:44 PM
Elhoim, thanks man, I'm glad you like it :).

I'll see what I can do about the beard, I might be able to do something about it...

Rhye
Aug 02, 2006, 07:38 PM
The thing is, that is beyond my powers :p!, it is confirmed that it is impossible at the moment to change or create LH, not even with 3ds Max.

What I've done, is that I made the crown an invisible object, so it is there, it's just that we can't see it. Making the moustache invisible would leave two holes above the mouth, I can't cover the holes without 3D access, and that, at the moment is impossible with Leader Heads.


No, I mean you could add an object. A part of beard and mustache that cover the actual ones and make them look different

Arkaeyn
Aug 02, 2006, 08:12 PM
for your information, I am definitely using Ramesses in Warlords to replace that alien-like Hatshepsut

And, I will probably use Augustus and Stalin too, so you could have considered using Caesar or Peter as the base, as they don't have any hat and just need you to add Hammurabi's hat, beard and do a reskin.

But I guess it doesn't matter, now that your Cyrus's evil twin already looks awesome!! :goodjob: (sorry for commenting it so late, I didn't notice it)

I like Hatshepsut, she's a good female leader in a game which is generally male-oriented. I do prefer using Augustus over Julus, but I strongly prefer that Stalin not be the Russian leader. Unless you're planning on using Catherine or Peter's heads elsewhere (Maria Theresa!)

SilverKnight
Aug 03, 2006, 12:17 AM
What do we think about the stats and the abilities?
A simple boost to 4 defense would help defend against the Persian Immortals. Any special abilities or historical references that might help? How were they most effective?

SilverKnight

Prestidigitator
Aug 03, 2006, 07:22 AM
I mean you could add an object. A part of beard and mustache that cover the actual ones and make them look different.
I'll see if I can do that...:)

SK, I think the Bowmen should be boosted against the persians, mainly. They were known for their city attacking, and their city defense. I think a boost to 5 would do them well? don't you think?

Elhoim
Aug 03, 2006, 08:46 AM
I'll see if I can do that...

SK, I think the Bowmen should be boosted against the persians, mainly. They were known for their city attacking, and their city defense. I think a boost to 5 would do them well? don't you think?

I think it would be too much... Perhaps 4 and a small bonus against cavalry? (So they work against the inmortals).

kairob
Aug 03, 2006, 08:47 AM
Hey I know I dont go around civ 4 threads much, but I am lurking around waiting for 1.00, and What about for the archer if you keep the strength at 3 but give it +100% attacking and defending cities, so they have an effective 6 in cities, but will be crushed by immortals on the open field?

Elhoim
Aug 03, 2006, 08:50 AM
That´s a very good idea!

Gunner
Aug 03, 2006, 10:50 AM
Whoa there, lets not get completely unbalaced. Kairob's idea is ridiculously overpowered.

How about increasing it to strengh 4 and give it city raider I? Thats a damn good UU, anything more than that would be imo too powerful.

kairob
Aug 03, 2006, 11:26 AM
Ok then tone it down, but IIRC Immortals are strength 4, if we keep it at strength 3 but give it one or two city raiders and one or two city defender ones, whatever kept it balanced, then the immortals will still beet it in the open but it would have an advantage assulting and defending city's, the point I was making was that the immortals should be able to beet them in the open if it is strength 4 they would struggle to do so.

edit:This way they would have an advantage and dissadvantage, because you would have to build speermen to get them across to the apponants citys otherwise the immortals will rip them apart, and its an excuse to use more than one troop type.

Lachlan
Aug 03, 2006, 11:59 AM
I vote for Nebuchadnezzar for Leader of Kingdom of Marduk

Elhoim
Aug 03, 2006, 12:18 PM
I vote for Nebuchadnezzar for Leader of Kingdom of Marduk

:confused:

Prestidigitator
Aug 03, 2006, 01:31 PM
Some nice ideas here! Impressive :), I really like Gunner's idea, strength of 4 with city raiderI and probably city defence promotion :thumbsup:.

Lachlan, what was that supposed to mean? :confused:

Gunner
Aug 03, 2006, 01:59 PM
Some nice ideas here! Impressive :), I really like Gunner's idea, strength of 4 with city raiderI and probably city defence promotion :thumbsup:.

Lachlan, what was that supposed to mean? :confused:
Archers already get a +25% city defense bonus naturally.

Lets look at the Mali Skirmisher UU for guidance. It replaces the archer with 1 extra strength point and one extra first strike chance. And that unit is widely accused of being one of the more overpowered units, right behind the old Redcoat, Cossack, and Praetorian.

With that in mind you can see that the 4 strength with city raider I is already pusing it. We really can't give it more bonuses than that.

Lachlan
Aug 03, 2006, 02:04 PM
Some nice ideas here! Impressive :), I really like Gunner's idea, strength of 4 with city raiderI and probably city defence promotion :thumbsup:.

Lachlan, what was that supposed to mean? :confused:

I meaned Nabuchadnezzar of Babylon :lol:

Or Nabuchodonosor if you prefer ....

But why not Sargon ? But i prefer Nabuchodonosor ...

Civ is Babylon, Sumer, Akkad or generically "Mesopotamia" ?

Gunner
Aug 03, 2006, 02:14 PM
The civ is Babylon, and we've already pretty much decided that the leader is going to be Hamurabi. You need to get in on the discussion earlier next time ;)

Lachlan
Aug 03, 2006, 03:00 PM
Ok, but Hammurabi is too classic

Elhoim
Aug 03, 2006, 04:02 PM
Archers already get a +25% city defense bonus naturally.

Lets look at the Mali Skirmisher UU for guidance. It replaces the archer with 1 extra strength point and one extra first strike chance. And that unit is widely accused of being one of the more overpowered units, right behind the old Redcoat, Cossack, and Praetorian.

With that in mind you can see that the 4 strength with city raider I is already pusing it. We really can't give it more bonuses than that.

I think they get %50 bonus on defense.

Maybe str 3 with %25 on defense and 25% (or %50) on city attack.

Gaizkin
Aug 03, 2006, 04:57 PM
LEADERS: I say Sargon and Hammurabi. Nebuchadnezzar should be a great general if you can make that happen

UNIQUE POWERS: Writing, I like the idea as that would creating the code wonder more plausible

UNIQUE BUILDINGS: Go for gold? Why not them all. I wouldn't mind seeing a new palace though, or least some choices for palaces. I am getting tired of the centre of my empires looking like a tea house. If you do the code of Hammurabi, then I think the qualities of the Power of Law should be used, and courthouses become availabe.

UNIQUE UNITS: Bowman

Prestidigitator
Aug 03, 2006, 06:16 PM
After spending a full afternoon trying to model a new beard to cover the moustache holes and all, I discovered that removing the moustache would make two holes in the mouth too :(. This is unpreventable, because even if I covered the mouth, the animation would get messed up.

I have made a new beard however, one that reaches to the hair, but getting rid of the moustache has proved to be nearly an impossible job. Sorry!

EDIT: at the end, that's how his beard is gonna look like...
134691

SilverKnight
Aug 03, 2006, 09:36 PM
Nice job, but I'd suggest a more... brown... color. ;) :hammer2: Haha, looks great! Don't fret over the moustache, either. The hat and beard are MORE than enough.

Hmm... The Phalanx is a great anti-Persian unit, the Immortal is a great anti-Barb (Archer) unit, and Praetorian pwns all... These checks and balances in the Mid-East arena are what make the game so much fun there. The Babylonians might not have conquered a large empire, but they put up one hell of a fight against the Persians (Immortals), the Assyrians (Chariots) and even Greece (Phalanx). To help in that area, they may need something boosting their city defenses. How about (a la the Civ4 Units page (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/)):

Babylonian Bowman
Power: 4
Move: 1
Cost: 30 (5 more than archer)
Requires: Archery
Upgrades to: Longbowman/Crossbowman
Unique unit for Babylon; Replaces Archer
1 first strike
+50% city defense
+25% hills defense
+25% vs. Mounted units
So they're a bit more expensive, but they're a very heavy counter-balance to Persia and the increased chariot barbs we'll also need in the area. Their great advantage wears thin as the other civs grow more powerful, and may be overtaken then.

SilverKnight

Gunner
Aug 04, 2006, 12:53 AM
Hmm... The Phalanx is a great anti-Persian unit, the Immortal is a great anti-Barb (Archer) unit, and Praetorian pwns all... These checks and balances in the Mid-East arena are what make the game so much fun there. The Babylonians might not have conquered a large empire, but they put up one hell of a fight against the Persians (Immortals), the Assyrians (Chariots) and even Greece (Phalanx). To help in that area, they may need something boosting their city defenses. How about (a la the Civ4 Units page (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/)):

Babylonian Bowman
Power: 4
Move: 1
Cost: 30 (5 more than archer)
Requires: Archery
Upgrades to: Longbowman/Crossbowman
Unique unit for Babylon; Replaces Archer
1 first strike
+50% city defense
+25% hills defense
+25% vs. Mounted unitsSo they're a bit more expensive, but they're a very heavy counter-balance to Persia and the increased chariot barbs we'll also need in the area. Their great advantage wears thin as the other civs grow more powerful, and may be overtaken then.

SilverKnight You have to realize that it will be almost impossible for the Persians to take any cities from the Babs with this configuration. Its all well and good to say that the Babs but up a good fight, but you have to remember that at the end of the day it was the Persians who won.

Once again, look at the Skirmisher for guidance. In addition to its increased strength of 1 it recieved 1 first strike chance. Thats it. This proposed unit recieves +25% vs mounted and +25% city defense. Look at the phalanx, it recieves one extra strength and then a rather useless +25% hills defense. The idea is that if you get an extra strength point, then you can get one other minor bonus.

So if you keep the +25% mounted (which I consider a major bonus) in addition to the strength increase then you should also keep the extra cost.

SilverKnight
Aug 04, 2006, 01:16 AM
The archer already has the 25% city defense bonus, it's right there (http://civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/)...

And the fact remains that Persia has a much higher production rate than Babylon. It can pump out unit after unit while Babylon wastes away slowly. Presia would have to make a concentrated effort to take out Babylon, something the player MAY prepare for better than the AI, in both respects.

...since the fertile crescent is more commercial than productive, Babylon would be in a better place to afford a larger, less effective army, right? So leave the Bowman's defense at 3, and drop its :hammers: cost to 20, 5 less than normal. That way they can produce roughly 1.25 times the units, yet still pay 100% the cost.

SilverKnight

Elhoim
Aug 04, 2006, 01:55 AM
After spending a full afternoon trying to model a new beard to cover the moustache holes and all, I discovered that removing the moustache would make two holes in the mouth too . This is unpreventable, because even if I covered the mouth, the animation would get messed up.

And covering the moustache without removing it has the same problem?

BTW, the beard looks great!!

Rhye
Aug 04, 2006, 05:03 AM
I don't think the bowman should have any kind of bonus against the Persians (that is, mounted units).

Barak
Aug 04, 2006, 07:22 AM
If the unit has a strength of 4, then I agree there should be no bonus vs mounted units. If we want a bonus vs mounted, then the strength should be reduced to 3.

dh_epic
Aug 04, 2006, 12:02 PM
I think a bonus versus mounted units and a cost discount sounds the most fun. 4 strength is too much like a skirmisher, and some of the other suggestions have been too powerful.

An "anti-mounted" archer seems to be an interesting niche that hasn't been filled. You could probably jack up the bonus versus mounted units to +50%, maybe even more since it's such a specific niche.

Prestidigitator
Aug 04, 2006, 12:24 PM
wow, the thread is really alive now!
Anyway, Elhoim, no, the problem is that it will look as if it was a mask, it will also mess up the animation. So we will have to do with the beard looking like that.

I think a bonus versus mounted units and a cost discount sounds the most fun. 4 strength is too much like a skirmisher, and some of the other suggestions have been too powerful.
An "anti-mounted" archer seems to be an interesting niche that hasn't been filled. You could probably jack up the bonus versus mounted units to +50%, maybe even more since it's such a specific niche.
dh_epic, I like the idea, maybe someone can say something about it? is it Okay to have the Bowman with these traits:

Power: 3
Move: 1
Cost: 20
Requires: Archery
Upgrades to: Longbowman/Crossbowman
Unique unit for Babylon; Replaces Archer
1 first strike
+25% city defense
+50% vs. Mounted units

SilverKnight
Aug 04, 2006, 02:19 PM
I don't think the bowman should have any kind of bonus against the Persians (that is, mounted units).
Why not? What about the latest suggestion by Prestidigitator?

SilverKnight

Gunner
Aug 04, 2006, 07:23 PM
I don't think the bowman should have any kind of bonus against the Persians (that is, mounted units).
I agree. Its kinda redundant to give Immortals a bonus against archers and then give the Bab's archers a bonus against Immortals.

I liked the idea before of giving them strength 4 and city raider I.

Prestidigitator
Aug 04, 2006, 07:29 PM
I'll let you guys dicide that, I just wanted to inform that the first post has been updated :D, the buttons for the edubba and the bowman are done! the current progress is on the LeaderHead!

I'll be posting some screenshots as soon as I get something done.
BTW, the background will be the Hanging Gardens, taken from the wonder movie, and although Hammurabi wasn't the builder of them, I think they would fit well and be quite recognizable. After all, Hatshepsut wasn't the builder of the Pyramids, and Ghandi wasn't of the Taj Mahal.

dh_epic
Aug 05, 2006, 12:13 AM
Good point about the weird contradiction between the bowman and the immortal.

I still think that 4 strength is kind of redundant with Skirmishers, and uncreative.

What about giving bowmen a bit of colateral damage? Or even a bonus against archers? In fact, even 2 movement would be more creative than an extra combat point.

SilverKnight
Aug 05, 2006, 12:45 AM
Collateral damage! I like it! :goodjob: It also still seems to make sense that the non-productive "Fertile" Crescent should build them for less, so I go with 20 :hammers: still.

SilverKnight

Prestidigitator
Aug 05, 2006, 04:39 PM
Who buried this thread alive ;)?

Can we settle the argument about the Bowman's specs? Rhye? a final word?

Gunner
Aug 05, 2006, 05:22 PM
I really like the idea of going down to 20 shields. I'd give them City Raider I with that.

SilverKnight
Aug 05, 2006, 09:48 PM
But that encourages human wave tactics, throwing unit after unit (cheaper, weak for city attacking) against enemy walls. Not something I knew the Babylonians were known for... Still, we may as well try it in gameplay. We can always change it later!

SilverKnight

Prestidigitator
Aug 06, 2006, 08:05 AM
I agree with SK...

Gunner
Aug 06, 2006, 10:30 AM
But that encourages human wave tactics, throwing unit after unit (cheaper, weak for city attacking) against enemy walls. Not something I knew the Babylonians were known for... Still, we may as well try it in gameplay. We can always change it later!

SilverKnight
I don't think it really encourages human wave tactics when its a civ like Babylon which naturally has low production values. By giving them a cheaper archer it would bring them up to about the same level as other civs for archer production. At least that was the logic I was using :crazyeye:

dh_epic
Aug 06, 2006, 01:26 PM
I think making a resource-less early city raider unit that's extremely cheap is an EXTREMELY bad idea. (And it's also pretty uncreative, IMO.)

I would sooner give them two movement. Or colateral damage. Or even make them a spearman replacement with first strikes. Something a little less obvious is probably better for strategy, as well.

Prestidigitator
Aug 06, 2006, 08:15 PM
After three afternoons of trying... Ladies and gentlemen...
I declare before you all, King Hammurabi of Babylon!
134956

And starting tomorrow, I will begin working on the XML ;).

abman
Aug 06, 2006, 08:19 PM
Looks great! I like the background, that's a nice touch. His hat might need a bit more shading or something to it. Its hard to see any definition in it. But it is definately different enough from Cyrus now. I think it would be a good addition to the game!

Tyranausaurus
Aug 06, 2006, 08:22 PM
That looks friggin' awesome man! excellent work! :goodjob:.

Let us all hope to see this soon in RFC: Warlords! :thumbsup:

Gunner
Aug 06, 2006, 09:23 PM
Looks great Prestidigitator!

Elhoim
Aug 07, 2006, 09:32 AM
It is very nice!!! :D

Now it´s time for the nitpicks! ;)

The crown looks shadowless. Perhaps you could fake the shadows by texture.

Well, I think that´s all! :D

Also, if you want, I would like to have the files for it as I have some ideas I want to implement. Perhaps if you like them you could implement them, or they may give you new inspiration! :)

But it is a very good work as it is! :goodjob:

Rhye
Aug 07, 2006, 10:08 AM
It is very nice!!! :D


+1


The crown looks shadowless. Perhaps you could fake the shadows by texture.


+1

Lachlan
Aug 07, 2006, 12:42 PM
huh ? Hammurabi i didn't see as you make it ...

It' a Cyrus-clone ...

Drtad
Aug 07, 2006, 01:10 PM
Very good, but shouldn't his skin be a bit darker?

Prestidigitator
Aug 07, 2006, 04:14 PM
I'm glad you guys all liked. I know, the shadow problem annoyed me too, the problem is, that when I use the LH shader the original crown appears black, it's a thing with the civ4 shader. So, today I finally realised that using other shaders would fix the problem, so I will now present thee, the new King Hammurabi! ;)
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Drtad, does his darker skin make you feel better? ;)

Elhoim
Aug 07, 2006, 05:02 PM
The darker skin does make him look much better! I think that everything that can be changed and takes him away from Cyrus should be changed. I was also thinking of different eyebrows, perhaps more rounded ones, like the Hammurabi´s statue ones. Also I was thinking of putting some little beard hairs around the beard and moustache. ;)

The crown looks better now, but the main problem lies with the lower part, the one that joins the crown and the head. Perhaps you could darken the crown texture directly to fix it. :)

But still, it is a great job!! :goodjob:

And you know, if you want me to help you, just ask! :D

Prestidigitator
Aug 07, 2006, 06:18 PM
The darker skin does make him look much better! I think that everything that can be changed and takes him away from Cyrus should be changed. I was also thinking of different eyebrows, perhaps more rounded ones, like the Hammurabi´s statue ones. Also I was thinking of putting some little beard hairs around the beard and moustache. ;)

The crown looks better now, but the main problem lies with the lower part, the one that joins the crown and the head. Perhaps you could darken the crown texture directly to fix it. :)

Oh great :rolleyes:, how didn't I notice that? ;). I just fixed it in the nif file. Thanks Elhoim!
I disagree about the eyebrows, his eyebrows were normal, nearly all ancient statues depict leaders differently, I don't think that changing his eyebrows would be a good idea ;), lets just leave it as it is.

The same thing goes to the moustache, I think it looks good already, messing with the texture might cause undesired effects. Just wait you guys :D, I think that Hammurabi looks better in the game than he does in the screenshots I posted :).

I'm waiting for the greenlight to start creating the XML, any other suggestions for the LH? Anyone?

Rhye
Aug 07, 2006, 06:19 PM
yes it's better now. Can you change its cloth colour completely (to purple, or golden or something like that, very different from cyan but realistic)?

Prestidigitator
Aug 07, 2006, 06:21 PM
yes it's better now. Can you change its cloth colour completely (to purple, or golden or something like that, very different from cyan but realistic)?
Man you're quick :cool:! Would dark blue do? with golden trims?

Rhye
Aug 07, 2006, 06:23 PM
i would say Phoenician purple with golden borders.

And can you make his hair and beard grey?

I'm sure these simple changes will help him looking different

Prestidigitator
Aug 07, 2006, 06:29 PM
And can you make his hair and beard grey?
Grey? are you sure? 'cause Hammurabi ascended the throne a young man, wouldn't it be better to depict him in his early age?

Phoenecian purple sounds okay to me, I'll see how I could make it fit.

Rhye
Aug 07, 2006, 06:52 PM
True, but as he ruled for 40 years (until he was 60) I think it's better to take advantage of this fact to differentiate him more from Cyrus

Aeon221
Aug 07, 2006, 08:38 PM
If this is still an area of contention, I would like to weigh in on the side of The Power of Writing. As I understand it, this would allow them to tech trade from the start... although perhaps I have this ass backwards. Babylon should be a no-brainer include.

Rhye
Aug 08, 2006, 06:33 AM
I would, whatever the effect, call it as one of these:
Power of Justice
Power of Retaliation
Power of Mirror Punishment
Power of Lex Talionis (the most appropriate, but it is in latin, so, inappropriate)

Prestidigitator
Aug 08, 2006, 07:06 AM
And what do you suggest be the benefits of the power, for the name I choose the
'Power of Justice'.
Someone earlier proposed that there should be less resistance in conquered cities, and more happiness from base cities 'We abide by the King's Code!', or something like that.
I've been waiting for you Rhye to set this...

Gunner
Aug 08, 2006, 10:55 AM
I think a good idea would be to make all conqured cities just have one turn of resistance and to give all Babylonian cities +1 happiness.

Prestidigitator
Aug 08, 2006, 11:21 AM
I think a good idea would be to make all conqured cities just have one turn of resistance and to give all Babylonian cities +1 happiness.
A very good one Gunner! :thumbsup:

Rhye, I tried making Hammurabi's hair Grey, I had success, but I noticed one problem... The LH looks somewhat strange, he looks young but with grey hair! meaning it didn't look good...
What I did though, is I made the beard texture have some white hairs, making him look as if he was in his forties... And it worked, and looked reasonable to me.
Regarding the clothing you will see in the screenshot that it is a dark puple colour with golden trims. I hope you like them ;)

I don't think he needs to look more different than Cyrus, he looks different enough...

Elhoim, you can see in the screenshot that I fixed the hat shading :), thanks for the tip...
I'll leave you with the screenshots, I think this will be the last version for Hammurabi....

135088

Gunner
Aug 08, 2006, 11:35 AM
Wow, that leaderhead looks really really good now. Much better than before (which was already quite good.)

Elhoim
Aug 08, 2006, 11:49 AM
It looks very good! :goodjob:

Prestidigitator
Aug 08, 2006, 01:33 PM
Thanks everyone! And now, to my final graphic assets argument... ;)

In the screenshot below, I hope you will see why I would like the colour of the civ to be 'Dark-blue'. I know it is the same as France, but they are far enough to be distinguishable.
135093

What do you think? shall I start creating the buttons for the civ? shall it be dark-blue?

Lachlan
Aug 08, 2006, 02:47 PM
Hammurabi looks ok ... :goodjob:

Rhyes I choose Power of Lex Talionis it's emblematic of Babylon ...

Tyranausaurus
Aug 08, 2006, 03:53 PM
It's been a while since I've been here!

Great Job Prestidigitator! Well done!
As for the color, I would prefer it to be dark blue, it looks more correct for them.

I can't wait to play with the civ, perhaps Rhye would speed up the creation of RFC: Warlords? When will it get released Rhye?

Elhoim
Aug 08, 2006, 05:20 PM
Prestidigitator, where are the LH files for Vanilla Civ? I have the Warlords ones, but I only have the eyeshadow file in the Vanilla folders... Thanks!

Prestidigitator
Aug 08, 2006, 06:12 PM
Prestidigitator, where are the LH files for Vanilla Civ? I have the Warlords ones, but I only have the eyeshadow file in the Vanilla folders... Thanks!
I sense that you haven't 'unpacked' your civ4 files. the 'art01.fpk' files have all the other assets. You will need an unpacker found in the 'Civ4: Utilities' section of the forums, then unpack the specified files into the civ4 art directory.

I hope that helped :), any projects arising Elhoim? ;) Perhaps you're thinking of arguing the addition of another missing civ? ;) ;)


Oh and what do ppl think of the colour of the flag I proposed? shall I go ahead and create the buttons?

Gunner
Aug 08, 2006, 06:37 PM
The color seems fine so long as it doesn't have exactly the same values as France does. When two civs have exactly the same color then the game combines their borders when the touch and its really weird.

Prestidigitator
Aug 08, 2006, 06:39 PM
Okay, thanks for the info Gunner, I will prbably change it to an even darker colour.

Rhye
Aug 08, 2006, 06:52 PM
please, can you post some screenshot taken with greyer beard and more facial wrinkles?

About the colour, it's actually early for that, because I'm not sure yet.
Can you post a screenshot of how it would look with the american light blue + yellow?
Cos I might make a dark blue for America in Warlords.

Prestidigitator
Aug 08, 2006, 07:41 PM
please, can you post some screenshot taken with greyer beard and more facial wrinkles?
Okay, if you really want it, but I'll have to re-create it, as I deleted it today thinking I won't need it anymore :crazyeye:. Probably tomorrow I'll have something to show.

Regarding the colours, I don't think light blue would work nicely with the golden emblem, but as you said, it's still too early for that, when you're ready to publish the Warlords version, I'll look on to what the colour should be.

Crayton
Aug 08, 2006, 09:33 PM
Perhaps a darker (almost black, but still obvious) blue. Try the light blue too. We may end up doing a three-way trade with America and France (or something like that).

Seeing as the UU is not 100% finalized here is another off the wall suggestion: Babylonian Bowman (Assyrian Archer, maybe); replaces Warrior; +25% versus Melee units, causes collateral damage. Will be effective in conquering Ancient Middle East as well as curbing the Greek appetite for the region.

Regardless of what unit we decide any player will be hard pressed to avoid defeat by any of the Barbarians, Greeks, Persians, or Arabians.

Arkaeyn
Aug 08, 2006, 10:37 PM
Looking very good! Hammurabi's hat looks much better defined, and I really like the flag.

Rhye
Aug 09, 2006, 04:11 AM
btw can you try removing the earrings?

Prestidigitator
Aug 09, 2006, 06:27 AM
btw can you try removing the earrings?
Removed flawlessly!

Thanks Arkaeyn!

Crayton, the status of the UU will be decided along with the UP, and that will come when I COMPLETELY finish the graphic assets. But thanks, we might use a variation of your idea ;)!

Elhoim
Aug 09, 2006, 09:35 AM
Prestidigitator, a little consult since you are quite knowledgeable in this matter. The NOSHADER texture is for users without pixel shading, and the DIFF for people who has it? Also what is the SPEC one for? Thanks!

Prestidigitator
Aug 09, 2006, 10:50 AM
Prestidigitator, a little consult since you are quite knowledgeable in this matter. The NOSHADER texture is for users without pixel shading, and the DIFF for people who has it? Also what is the SPEC one for? Thanks!
That's right buddy, the 'noshader' is for those without the pixel shader.

But in my case, I will not be using the 'diff' for Hammurabi because I'm using a different shader from the default civ4 LH one; this is because if I use the default LH shader the invisible crown would show up as black, and if I use a different shader the texture would look plain, so be careful as the 'diff' would only work if you're using the default LH texture.

as for the 'SPEC' files, these stand for the 'specular' property, making the texture shine, you do not need to play with those files, they do not affect the colour of the texture :).

If you need any additional information feel free to ask ;).

Prestidigitator
Aug 09, 2006, 12:31 PM
... and like I promised, here is Hammurabi, I actually created a Brand-New texture for him ;).
Here is what has been changed since the last version:

A (70% Black) grey hair.
Removed earrings completely and fixed colour around the ear (where the earring existed).
Made a new purple texture.
A (70% Black) grey beard.
Fixed some shadowing problems

Enjoy!
135219
PS: you might not notice the greyer beard if you don't compare the original cyrus with Hammurabi. All I've got to say is, he looks quite different from cyrus now ;).

Enjoy!

Karam
Aug 09, 2006, 03:30 PM
:wow:, that looks GREAT! I mean it was great since the beginning, but now it really is 'flawless'!

Excellent job prestidigitator :thumbsup:!

BTW, I like the grey hair you added, it makes him look more realistic :goodjob:!

Elhoim
Aug 09, 2006, 05:20 PM
Great! :goodjob:

Sorry to be a nuisance, but it would be possible to add curly hair to the beard, like in the statue. I think that´s the way they used it, right?

Oh, and many thanks for the explanation! :D

Rhye
Aug 09, 2006, 06:02 PM
it looks great and it's already okay, but why not more grey? I tried to increase gamma correction, and I think that up to 1.5X it still looks good...

Prestidigitator
Aug 09, 2006, 06:10 PM
Elhoim, no prob, about the beard, you cannot possibly imagine what pain it was finding this texture for the beard, if I can I will try later, but not now ;).

Rhye, oh, so you want him in his late fifties then? ;), I will try to make the hair greyer, you will see a screenshot hopefully by tomorrow :).

Prestidigitator
Aug 10, 2006, 01:25 PM
Here is the LH I promised, Rhye, I'm sure you don't want him older than that, and if you see that the hair looks somewhat dark, it is because of the shader, the hair looks as grey as it realistically could be ;). I hope you will like this version of Hammurabi.
135341
What does everyone think? :)

And now for the bommer! you will see the frank difference between the two, especially after all the tweaks! my present to you all! enjoy :cool: !
135342

Rhye
Aug 10, 2006, 03:31 PM
agreed, enough grey ;)

Prestidigitator
Aug 10, 2006, 03:51 PM
agreed, enough grey ;)
Thanks Rhye, right now I'm finishing the buttons for him. I just have three question for you, because I will start creating the XML files later...
1. You might have noticed that the diplomacy text for Bismarck is that of Hammurabi in civ3, while the Fredrick diplomacy text is that of Bismarck in civ3. I think it would be a nice touch to give the deplomacy text back to Hammurabi and give Bismarck the one for Fredrick. Don't you think? if not what do you suggest I do?

2. I will start creating te city plot list for Babylon, do you recommend the names be in Babylonian? ie: Babylon= Babili ... Nineveh= Ninawa?

3. Regarding the location of Babylon (Iraq), it was known as the 'fertile crescent', I don't think it should be desert, it should have some grassland and/or plains. Do you want me to change the map later?

Thanks! :)

Gunner
Aug 10, 2006, 03:55 PM
Well its called the 'fertile crescent' because of the annual flooding from the Tigris and the Euphrates which was great for agriculture, and this is already represented well with floodplains.

Vishaing
Aug 10, 2006, 06:35 PM
I don't think there's much point for that because I'm pretty sure hte flood plains are removed when a city is founded on them. However I don't have any evidence to back this up, it just seems like every time a city is somewhere it is never on flood plains.

Rhye
Aug 10, 2006, 06:40 PM
1. Honestly I don't remember the diplomacy text... but are you sure that civ3 and civ4 texts correspond exactly?

2. Yes, babylonian names. Make a big list, because I'll be cutting most of it for making the city names map.

3. There's the flood plains already in the tile, and all surrounding.

Gunner
Aug 10, 2006, 07:39 PM
I don't think there's much point for that because I'm pretty sure hte flood plains are removed when a city is founded on them. However I don't have any evidence to back this up, it just seems like every time a city is somewhere it is never on flood plains.
The game as a bug/feature where flood plains are removed if a city is settled on them. This thread has a fix:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175766

Elhoim
Aug 10, 2006, 08:45 PM
It is a very nice reeskin Prestidigitator!

And about the curly hair, do you want me to give it a try? ;)

Great job! :goodjob:

Prestidigitator
Aug 11, 2006, 09:15 AM
Okay, now for the answers...
1. Well, at least for the greeting, 'Babylon the great and its superior people greet you', I'm sure that was from Hammurabi. So are you okay with the swaping of Fredrick and Bismark?

2. Don't worry about that, I will make a map (form worldbuildier), with all the names for you to code ;).

3. That's right, but still, I think some plains would do, it shouldn't be all desert, and would you consider adding some more oil to the area?

Gunner
Aug 11, 2006, 09:31 AM
But plains give less food than flood plains. It would be the opposite of what you want.

fenceman
Aug 11, 2006, 05:26 PM
Maybe more plains where there is normal desert now, not just where the flood plains are adjacent to the rivers.

Prestidigitator
Aug 11, 2006, 07:59 PM
Away from this debate, Rhye, here is the city plot map, I used several resources, mostly from the British Museum maps. I did my best, but in some cases I chose one of several cities to put, according to historical significance. What do you think?
the map:
135457

Any suggestions?
btw: I got myself a new avatar :p, change is good for the soul :).

Prestidigitator
Aug 12, 2006, 06:16 PM
:bump:, Rhye, what is your response to swapping the Diplomacy text and the city plot list?

Please, I need to know so that I can finish the project before the Warlords version gets released...

Rhye
Aug 12, 2006, 07:34 PM
about the text, I don't know, because i don't remember frederick's text.


about the map, it's ok but it would be better if you filled some empty plots, even with hittite or other civ's cities

Prestidigitator
Aug 13, 2006, 07:24 AM
Okay then, more cities...

Regarding the text, do you want me to create a hybrid? I might add some flavour to Hammurabi's text by adding some excerpts from the code of Hammurabi... Do you agree on me doing that?

Rhye
Aug 13, 2006, 07:39 AM
actually in that case we would need translation in all the languages!

Prestidigitator
Aug 13, 2006, 08:41 AM
actually in that case we would need translation in all the languages!
... and that is why I'm asking you what do you want me to do :lol:, I have two choices:
1. Swap Bismarck's text with Fredrick's, and give Bismarck's to Hammurabi.

2. Choose one of an unused leader for Hammurabi, one that comes to my mind is Hatshepsut's.

What do you think?

Rhye
Aug 13, 2006, 10:04 AM
ok, now i understand.

the choice isn't easy. Now that I've taken a look: while Hatheptut describes herself as goddess, Bismarck talks about total war and mustaches. And Frederick uses Bismarck's...

Kublai Khan?
At any rate, swapping takes just 1 minute (editing CIV4DiplomacyInfos.XML)

Prestidigitator
Aug 13, 2006, 10:32 AM
I really didn't want to do it, but I think I will be re-installing Civ3: Conquests' tonight... I will grab the diplomacy text for Gilgamesh... or wait a sec... Rhye, can you send me the diplomacy text for Gilgamesh in all languages? that would be a real favour :cool:. I don't like to use Kublai's diplomacy, not really historic and civilized.

I hope you send me the diplo text as soon as possible :D.

Rhye
Aug 13, 2006, 11:18 AM
Civ3 wasn't multilanguage as Civ4.
And I had the english version

Prestidigitator
Aug 13, 2006, 12:15 PM
"Very well. That just means more plunder for me!" :lol:
Okay then, I will install conquests and translate the text...

Rhye
Aug 13, 2006, 03:38 PM
? In German, Italian, French and Spanish?

Prestidigitator
Aug 13, 2006, 04:21 PM
? In German, Italian, French and Spanish?
Well, I wish I was fluent in more than 3 languages, but for now, a program will do...
(You didn't think I knew 5 languages Rhye, did you? :lol:)

Rhye
Aug 13, 2006, 06:24 PM
nah, it's simpler than if you use an hybrid.
So that you can add Hammurabi to the same first contact entry of the Germans, and others if you feel them appropriate. You should need to mod only CIV4DiplomacyInfo

Prestidigitator
Aug 13, 2006, 07:05 PM
:lol:, I just learned how bad automatic translators are :lol:
The text just translated into uncomprehensable meanings... It's sad, but I think it wouldn't be nice for the mod about history to have bad translations and bad phrasing... SO,

Given that Rhye you suggested using the hybrid, I will be using some diplomacy from every leader, ie: the German greeting (which truly is the Babylonian IMO), the Arabian proposal etc...

At this rate I will finish the Diplomacy XML tonight, then I'll move onto the other XML files.

BTW, Rhye can you tell me quickly the stats for the UU? a conclusion from what the kind members have contributed?
I would also like your opinions on the UB stats, I think that once this project is done, we'll be one big step closer to the Warlords version ;).

I hope you answer as quick as you can... The XML can be quite an annoying task if I'm not sure what to code... So the UU stats and the UB stats please ;).

Rhye
Aug 14, 2006, 07:23 AM
I propose this for the UU:

Power: 3
Move: 1
Cost: 15
Requires: Archery
Upgrades to: Longbowman/Crossbowman
Unique unit for Babylon; Replaces Archer
2 first strikes
causes collateral damage
+50% city defense, +25% hills defense

as for the name: Assyrian Bowman



But I might be wrong. It first has to be tried on the field

Rhye
Aug 14, 2006, 07:35 AM
I agree with the stats
+3 culture
+35% science
Can turn 2 citizens into scientists.
Required to build University, National Epic, The Great Library.
for the UB

But I warn, we'll have to move the Madrassa (Arabian UB) to a replacement of University to avoid duplicates (as if there'll be Koreans, they'll be a minor nation anyway)

Rhye
Aug 14, 2006, 07:56 AM
other stuff:

Do you like this flag combination? The alternative is a very dark blue, but one of the two must be assigned to America. Or the Greek greyish blue.

As for the UP, I have an unusual idea: why don't we give them a free wonder at the beginning?
And the free wonder is...the Ishtar Gate.
This way I would take advantage of the asset done for Greek World mod, without having to care for the movie bceause it's built in Babylon right from the beginning!

mitsho
Aug 14, 2006, 08:10 AM
and what does the Ishtar Gate do, if I may ask?
Otherwise, doesn't these bonusses seem a tad too much for the Unique unit?

mitsho

Elhoim
Aug 14, 2006, 10:22 AM
2 first strikes
causes collateral damage

Perhaps I would make it one or the other...

Barak
Aug 14, 2006, 11:09 AM
I agree...either 2 strikes or collateral damage. Having both is too powerful.

Prestidigitator
Aug 14, 2006, 01:14 PM
Whoa! Thanks for the input Rhye, here is what I think...
Regarding the UU, balances would come later, but I agree, maybe 1 strike would be more balanced. As for the name, why should it be Assyrian Bowman? The Babylonian Bowman was trained under the reign of Nebuchadnezzar and was known to guard the city, along with the Great Wall of Babylon, it was also used for siege attacks and conquest against various tribes, including some Persian and Minor Asian peoples. The Assyrians used Bowmen, but Nebuchadnezzar was quite known to build the great army... One of the main reasons behind the fall of Babylon was Nabonidus' falure to maintain the army of Bowmen Nebuchadnezzar built. I think it should remain as the Babylonian Bowman. Anyway, I talked too much :p.

Regarding the UB, I agree, it should be the school, as it was the first schools in history, the stats sound good to me, I will code as you suggested.

Now the UP!, while I like the graphic for the Ishtar Gate, I don't think it would fit historically, Babylon in the mod would start at 3'000 BCE, the gate wasn't built until 600-500 BCE. Secondly, what impact would it have? I think the idea suggested by one of the members was to give more happiness to cities: "we abide by the riteous law" or something like that... What would you like to make it?
EDIT: It was also suggested that it could be that cities experience less anarchy after conquest.

Oh and about the flag, it looks good, but can you please post the darker one? so that we can compare the two and see which fits more?

Thanks Rhye! (and everyone ofcourse! ;))

Rhye
Aug 14, 2006, 03:21 PM
OK just 1 first strike.

But I don't like the name "Babylonian". It's already clear that it's babylonian, if it's babylonian UU....
Can you find an appropriate name without that word?

Prestidigitator
Aug 14, 2006, 03:50 PM
Okay, here are some names I thought might be suitable...
1. Asharittu Bowman, an Assyrian style of Bowmen, sounds cool to me :D.
or
2. Composite Bowman, because the bow is referred to as a composite bow, made from different types of wood to enhance it.

I preferred the first one, maybe just because it has an exotic name, but the second one works too... What do you think?

Oh and if you could can you post a screenshot of the other choice of darker flag?

Rhye
Aug 14, 2006, 07:48 PM
if you said that Assyrian is wrong, go with Composite...



here's the dark blue.
imagine it with American white stars too

Prestidigitator
Aug 14, 2006, 08:01 PM
That colour looks PERFECT! It fits them so well :goodjob:, I think I'll go with it. Rhye can you please give me the colour vals? and what do you want the name of the colour to be?

About the name, while I said that, I think that Asharittu would give more flavour, then again Mesopotamian cultures overlaped each other, they were ultimately of the same descent, so it would suite the Babylonians to have the name after all...

Tell me your final decision about the name, and what you think about the UP... I think that less anarchy, or less city revolts would do them good.

Crayton
Aug 14, 2006, 10:16 PM
What religion is that in the Babylonian city, Rhye? Or is that a religion icon?

UglyBoy
Aug 15, 2006, 03:32 AM
What religion is that in the Babylonian city, Rhye? Or is that a religion icon?

Good spot! He's been rumbled and now has to tell us his plans for religion.;)

Rhye
Aug 15, 2006, 03:43 AM
no plans, that screenshot is from Greek World :p



As for the name, choose yourself the most appropriate one. Just don't choose "Babylonian".

About the UP...less city revolts means + happiness, right? In this case, this could easily be the effect of the Ishtar Gate.

And about the colour... I can't tell yet which one of the two I will choose. It depends on the other combinations.
If you want to know the name...I'll call it dark blue, rename dark blue to blue and rename blue to light blue.

Barak
Aug 15, 2006, 07:14 AM
Perhaps call it navy blue?

Prestidigitator
Aug 15, 2006, 07:25 AM
You know what, thinking of it again, why does it have to have a pre-adjective to it? in the game it is'nt 'Egyptian War Chariot', it is just called 'War Chariot', so it can just be a 'Bowman', no need for the Babylonian adjective. Do you agree with that?

As for the UP, that's right, but you can make the Ishtar Gate a second minor unique building that appears around 600 BCE, that adds more culture to the city, and enhances the UP.
So for the UP:
Less revolts= more happiness in cities.
+
Ishtar Gate generates more culture to the city it is built in, but appears ONLY around 600-500 BCE.

Rhye
Aug 15, 2006, 07:50 AM
I don't see the year a real problem, as wonders are being built in wrong years anyway.

Isn't just "Bowman" the same as "Archer"? What's the difference between the two terms? I will have trouble translating to italian where there's only "Arciere"

Prestidigitator
Aug 15, 2006, 09:10 AM
I don't see the year a real problem, as wonders are being built in wrong years anyway.

Isn't just "Bowman" the same as "Archer"? What's the difference between the two terms? I will have trouble translating to italian where there's only "Arciere"
Right, so for the UP, let's make Ishtar Gate a buildable thing, making it an option for Babylon ONLY, it would add +1 or +2 Culture, can you set that?

so the UP:

Reduced Anarchy= More Happiness in cities.
+
Ishtar Gate optional wonder, generates (either 1 or 2 you choose that Rhye) culture.
I hope you tell me what you think about it, I will do the building XML, but you will code the UP ;).

As for the Bowman, I know, it is just a synonym for Archer, it is just a different form of bow (I think), if you're not okay with keeping Bowman, I will set a new name with an adjective.

Rhye
Aug 15, 2006, 10:09 AM
Okay, but I would reduce the UP to just the building, and I'd place it at the beginning so that we avoid the movie problem.

And use an adjective, such as Asharittu or Assyrian (more incorrect but more widely recognizable)

Prestidigitator
Aug 15, 2006, 11:48 AM
Okay, but I would reduce the UP to just the building, and I'd place it at the beginning so that we avoid the movie problem.
Why though? it doesn't have to be a wonder, just a national wonder... or do you think it'd be too powerful? the reason I wanted a building date was because it would be close to the Persian war with Babylon, so that the capital can gain as much culture as it could from the Ishtar Gate....
If the only issue for you is the wonder movie, then I don't think it is a problem, we can get around that by not making it a wonder.

But if your issue is with balance, that's another story, but I don't think it would make them too powerful, anyway, it would just boost the capital before the fall of the empire...

You see, I proposed the UP so that the conquest city happiness would help them in the early stage (conquering nearby barbarian cities), and the Ishtar Gate would help them gain culture near the end. It wouldn't be biased compared to the other UPs (take the Arabian).
I will wait for your final word, if you agree for what I said, or if you disagree. I personally have no problem creating city-bar icons for the Ishtar gate :).

Tyranausaurus
Aug 15, 2006, 07:06 PM
Right, so for the UP, let's make Ishtar Gate a buildable thing, making it an option for Babylon ONLY, it would add +1 or +2 Culture, can you set that?

so the UP:

Reduced Anarchy= More Happiness in cities.
+
Ishtar Gate optional wonder, generates (either 1 or 2 you choose that Rhye) culture.

Kudos to this idea Prestidigitator! I really like it!

Prestidigitator
Aug 16, 2006, 06:46 AM
Thanks Tyranausaurus,
Rhye what do you think of the idea I posted in post #231?

Rhye
Aug 16, 2006, 09:00 AM
I don't know until I try to program it and see what works best

Prestidigitator
Aug 16, 2006, 09:10 AM
Yeah, I guess that's a right think to do...
for the time being, I'm changing the shape of the Ishtar Gate, I didn't like the original one, it didn't look quite like the original Gate, you will see from the screenshot that I added some Babylonian architecture spikes at the top, it's not finished yet, I will do some more in the middle section, then I'll have to texture it (using the original texture ofcourse).
I hope you'll like it better than the original ;).
135906

Prestidigitator
Aug 19, 2006, 06:53 AM
Rhye, now that I've finished most of the XML, I stumbled upon translating... Is it okay with you if I use a program to translate it to (German, Italian, French and Spanish)?
The other alternative is to leave it blank and have some player translate it (if we have a Spanish player who really wants to).

Programs do not translate text exactly, but it can be fixed later, so what do you think?

Rhye
Aug 19, 2006, 07:31 AM
leave it as english. Don't use translators

Prestidigitator
Sep 01, 2006, 09:19 AM
I can now announce ;), that the graphic and XML assets for the Mesopotamia project are complete :).
Rhye, if at anytime you feel you are ready to start creating the Warlords version of the Mod, please PM me so that I can send you the files.

I just have one query, the unit sounds will be the Arabian one (they're the same anyway). As for the diplomacy music, I'm not sure, I'm afraid it might be illegal to add some, so if there is no alternative we will have to do with the Arab diplomacy music.
Fair and square? ;)

Check the first post for credits ;).

Tyranausaurus
Sep 01, 2006, 06:06 PM
Great Work Prestidigitator! it seems that you really made it through your persistant work and graphic skills :goodjob:!

Rhye, will the Warlords version come after the first patch for Warlords? and if so when will the patch be released? or when should we expect the Warlords version?

Rhye
Sep 01, 2006, 06:47 PM
yes, after tha 1st patch, and after 2 or 3 more versions of the vanilla mod.

As for the music, have you considered using some themes from civ3?

Prestidigitator
Sep 01, 2006, 07:17 PM
Thanks Tyranausaurus ;).

Rhye, I haven't found a very fitting one, but I have been looking for free music, and found one that prehaps suits the civ. I can send it to you if you want, but if not we'll have to do with the civ3 music.

If it wasn't for legality I would have posted some original music, but I can't :sad:

Prestidigitator
Sep 03, 2006, 09:47 AM
Problem solved! I found some good fitting music that would do the job greatly! I found the piece in three formats, so it would work exactly like the ones in the game (one for early, middle and late), plus I will be editing the music so that we can have one for when you roll over the empire cities!

I have no time to post some samples, you will see it with the Warlords release! I will be coding the music XML this week :).