GOTM 57 - America!


Civilization: America
Rivals: 5 pre-selected.
Barbarians: Restless
Difficulty: Monarch
Land Form: Pangea, 80% ocean, small map.
Geology: 3 billion years old, warm, wet
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm57large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm57mini.jpg

Conquest-Class Bonuses:
Start with additional technologies of bronze working & alphabet.
Start with a bonus worker and spearman.


Predator-Class Equalisers:
Start knowing no technologies.
AI free units increased to emperor level.

Would a move SE towards the coastline be worthy on a pangea?

I'll be sending my scout to the gold mountain, see what he uncovers. If nothing good, I'll be settling 1 SE and going for 20k, hoping my scouts can get Ceremonial Burial quickly. Or even better, a free town.

I'd rather move my scout to the hill in hope to see something other than swamp... :rolleyes:
My settler might settle down on the grass to the east to have some RCP3 towns in this crowded map.

I need another fast game, 80% water pangea should be right for a quick sword rush. Predator Conquest Challenge anybody? :mischief:

We might see some BC finishes this time... (although regarding my usual luck we have a rival on a different continent... :wallbash: )

America means world domination :D and predator, of course! :D :D

Can't see the map here, the squid blocks things with 'games' in it :(

Most likely I'll go east and settle on the grass for RCP3.

Perhaps the plains/river/peninsula city will then build The Colossus for the Golden Age. The Lighthouse is useless and Copernicus' and Magellan's come too late.

I'll set research on Ceremonial Burial at 0% and wait for what the scouts pop and trade. After Alphabet I'll start own research. At least two more scouts, then warrior, granary, settler.

Whether the worker should road the wine (a bit over two turns net for a luxury and more commerce) before mining the bonus grasslands? Must calculate it. But roading BG before mining is a complete loss, since we have the wine.

Without any real food bonus we'll have to build barracks pretty soon and start fighting.

Whether the worker should road the wine (a bit over two turns net for a luxury and more commerce) before mining the bonus grasslands? Must calculate it. But roading BG before mining is a complete loss, since we have the wine.Roading the wine won't give any commercial benefit if my thinking is correct. Wines give +1 commerce so the tile will have a base commerce of 2; the additional gp for roading will be lost under the despot penalty. Also there is no immediate need for happiness as we'll have 2 content citizens so I'll be mining and roading the river bg before getting onto the wines.

I quite fancy a 20K attempt, in which case SE is the move to make. OTOH maybe I should go all out with aggression on a diddy pangea map in which case E for RCP 3 sounds like a good plan. I've still got a few days to decide which way to go I guess.

settle on spot, I dont care about coastal, this is pangaea! does settling on wines give extra commerce? Im gonna go for WC -> BW -> IW, and then conquer the world. As for worker moves, settling on wines makes it obvious to move towards the river BG.
America means world domination :D and predator, of course! :D :D
Domination, or conquest, is my goal too. :evil: though im not going for Predator. :blush:

I'm up for whatever predator challenge people want to play. :evil:
So far there's been calls for both Conquest and Domination, I think it would be more fun if we could settle on one of them.

There seem to be a large number of possible good locations for a capitol, which is nice for a change. SE, E, E-NE, NE-NE and N-NE will all get both BGs and the wines in range, and be on the river. I'll probably move the scout NE-N to the hills to see if settling further inland is worthwhile.

I expect to send the scout to the mountain. The BGs and gold look like a trail of bread crumbs. If I see something good the settler follows. If it is descent settle southwest, get this area in the first ring. If I see more jungle there settle east.

Scout to the mountain, settler probably 2ne.

Intriguing map. Complex start position, with many possible settling places for the capital. Which one will be the best? The answer will probably come after scout NE-N.

We'll need wonders for the Golden Age. Colossus or Great Lighthouse for the expansionist trait. Pyramids, Great Wall or Hanging Gardens for the industrious one. Colossus + Hanging Gardens looks like the best combo (considering also the timing), but Colossus is likely to go elsewhere, so it could be Pyramids + Lighthouse (with early leader) or Lighthouse + HG or GW. With no early leader, a bold attempt would be captured wonders + Forbidden Palace.

The fastest domination ever is a victory in 230 AD by WackenOpenAir in GotM 37 with the Iroquois (deity). Let's see if this date can be beaten. And, of course, red path. Noblesse oblige! :D

Beating that date will be a challenge no doubt. And doing it without a good offensive early UU like the Mounted Warrior, and with no settler factory in the capitol, it will be really really tough. But then again, it's a small map with 80% ocean, so why not! :D

Predator Domination Challenge it is, here we go! :ninja:

Well, after a successful venture into CotM 26, I'm up for another challenge with this one. I'll move NE-NE for the capital, and hope for perhaps a forest based luxury to go with the wines. As said above, it looks like domination and conquest victories are going to be the easiest, so I'll definitely have a sword stack hoping to win that way. If that fails, Knights and Cavalry are always possibilities.

But, knowing the way I play, the game will probably end around the year 2025 with a diplomatic victory... I really need to learn to not worry about hurting the AI's feelings. :sad:

We'll need wonders for the Golden Age. Colossus or Great Lighthouse for the expansionist trait. Pyramids, Great Wall or Hanging Gardens for the industrious one. Colossus + Hanging Gardens looks like the best combo (considering also the timing), but Colossus is likely to go elsewhere, so it could be Pyramids + Lighthouse (with early leader) or Lighthouse + HG or GW. With no early leader, a bold attempt would be captured wonders + Forbidden Palace.

But you cant get a golden age that way, can you? :confused:

Anyways, with all these different moves for the city, I guess the scout will tell all. :mischief:

Predator Domination Challenge it is, here we go! :ninja:
I'm giving up on the epthatlon. It wouldn't be the same anyway now so many have retired. Instead I'll take the pleasure by being beaten by you lot in a domination challenge. :D

Niklas & Redbad: welcome aboard!

Ansar: you can, if the captured wonders fill your civilization traits. Once you build the next wonder, the golden age starts. Any wonder will do the job, small ones included.

:hmm: never knew that, thanks though! :thumbsup:

My builder side will probably take over and I will build the Hanging Gardens for the fact that I'm a wonder freak(not that addicted,though). ;)

last time a wander a little too much,
with a scout, I want wander 5 turns to expect a good bonus.
even a forest deer.

Are those forests or jungles anyways?

I'm thinking of the RCP 3 move to grass. Will go for the predator dom thingy, although this is my non-C3C devirginization, so I'll try and cope with not knowing what's up in vanilla ;)

Predator Domination Challenge

OK, I'll try if I get the time. Only just started COTM26...

so many people going for predator, makes me feel small, i'm going to play at conquest:blush: i normally play without barbs, and a behind the scenes attempt at gotm56 showed that to be a real problem, so i want that spear. the tech boost is a little much though, bronze is cool, but alpha as well is quite a lot, but i wont complain too much:mischief: I like the idea of 2 NE for the capital, and RCP 3, it should do nicely. i am also on board with others that a sword rush should work nicely, especially with ind. workers and a small pangaea. I won't waste my time with the bottom of the tech tree, i will go iron, math, const. and try to get Colossus and GW for the GA

This could be a strange one for me. I'm in the process of winding up COTM 26 and will be in a time crunch to get this done before COTM 27 comes out, so I might go for a military win. What will be weird is that I might play an entire game without having a Golden Age. I'll probably not build any AA wonders (it's cheaper to build swords / horses and take them from the AI) and the American UU will probably never reach the board. My only potential would be getting 4 MGL's during the game (1=HE 2-FP 3-Palace jump) that could hurry a GA triggering Wonder.

As for starting moves, I thinking of 1 SW with the worker going 1 SE to irrigate & road the plains. That will give me 2-1-2 tiles for my capital and my 2nd city will be able to share those 2 BG by settling E-NE of the start. It's not a great location as far as RCP is concerned, but I expect to but my FP in city # 2 and palace jump my capital to a more central location.

After taking a bit of a drubbing from Tricky in GOTM 56 I'm keen for a bit of payback. ;)

Predator domination challenge it is!

so many people going for predator, makes me feel small, i'm going to play at conquest:blush: i normally play without barbs, and a behind the scenes attempt at gotm56 showed that to be a real problem, so i want that spear. the tech boost is a little much though, bronze is cool, but alpha as well is quite a lot, but i wont complain too much:mischief:
It's ok, whatever makes you feel comfortable in the game. :)
I'm playing open since I dont like Predator, and the challenges are a bit too much for me.

Oh i like pangea maps and conquest games !
I'm gonna be on a vacation (including WackenOpenAir festival :)) until august 12 or so, so i can't join your challenge :(

so many people going for predator, makes me feel small, i'm going to play at conquest

That's the whole sense of these different options. The idea is to have fun. There's nothing to be ashamed of.

Yeah and so many people going for Predator makes it more likely for me to finally get a Top10 spot ;-)

My only potential would be getting 4 MGL's during the game (1=HE 2-FP 3-Palace jump) that could hurry a GA triggering Wonder.
At least three MGLs would also do the job as we learned above:

you can, if the captured wonders fill your civilization traits. Once you build the next wonder, the golden age starts. Any wonder will do the job, small ones included.
I would be relieved if I would get a single MGL this time... :mischief: :crazyeye:

Mm, funny leader counting. You can't rush the Epic with your first leader because you need to make an army first. But the Epic could start your GA according to the tR1cKy theory, if you taken had the other wonders already.
But why not hand-build the FP? It's only 200 shields, and if it will both reduce national corruption and start your GA, I think it could quickly make up for the shields that you didn't put into sword-making.

But why not hand-build the FP? It's only 200 shields

Because this is not C3C and thus the FP is prefered to be build in a corrupt city :)

Because this is not C3C and thus the FP is prefered to be build in a corrupt city :)
Well, that's why you'd use the third leader for a palace jump. :)
(Though of course you could do a FPJ instead, saving another leader...)

It really depends on when on how far along I am when the first leader shows up. Normally I'm too busy expanding to build an SOD, so they normally are MDI. However since this is a small map, I forsee the SOD consisting of swords (assuming we have iron) or horsemen (if we have horses). Somehow I fear we have neither and be attacking Carthage, Greece & Rome with Archers. In PTW my first MGL goes for an Army, then I start building HE in my FP city and if I get another MGL soon he'll hurry the FP. A little later (usually after hand building the FP), I'll use the 3rd MGL for a palace jump to another nations ex-capital. Now with 3 MGL already used any new MGL will be used for wonder rushing.

Gee, why do you guys like HE so much ?
I think in PTW an army for the ability to build HE is just about the worst investment possible.

You will get 33% more leaders (wonders) in the future at the cost of 1 leader (that could also have been a wonder) + the cost of building HE.
So you need to get another 4 leaders (would be 3 without HE) to break even, not counting the cost of building HE.
With the 1 you used on HE, that means getting 5 leaders (4 without HE) for break even.
How many games do you actually get that many leaders?

And armies are utter crap in PTW.

The FP on the otherhand is able to double your total production of shields and commerce. It is the most magnificent investment of a leader in PTW.
I advise you to use your first leader on the FP. This is just about the easiest decision in all of civ.
When i just started playing civ, this was even the reason for me to choose militaristic civs and start my conquests before 1000BC. The last part I still do, but no longer just for this reason :)

Even in PtW, I can usually find a use for an army, whether it be a shield from AI skirmishing, a big stack of hit points to attack Athens on a hill, or just the joy of having a unit that blitzes. So I don't begrudge using my first leader on an army. I would use it for a wonder only if there was something really powerful available (i.e. Pyramids or Sun Tzu).
Next reason: I am not a hardcore militarist, so I will probably only fight one war in the ancient age. In the medieval, handbuilding the Epic means passing up four maces, three knights, or two and a half cavalries. To my smug little empire, that isn't much. I would rarely waste a leader on it - only if I had a serious leader farm running, and thought it would pay off very quickly.
As for palaces, I now tend to run the FP the same way in PtW that I do in C3C; try to prebuild it to have it ready in a core town ASAP. In PtW, the palace can then jump away whenever a suitable spot has been found. And of course, my capital has only been a settler or unit pump so far, so disbanding it for a free palace jump is no great loss. The only downside is the logistics of gethering your army together to rebuild the palace. It helps if your new capital is next door to the next AI on the hit list, of course.
And wonders? There's another way to get them without hand-building them. And it also involves the AI passing on building a big stack of units ;)

Even in PtW, I can usually find a use for an army, whether it be a shield from AI skirmishing, a big stack of hit points to attack Athens on a hill, or just the joy of having a unit that blitzes. So I don't begrudge using my first leader on an army. I would use it for a wonder only if there was something really powerful available (i.e. Pyramids or Sun Tzu).
Next reason: I am not a hardcore militarist, so I will probably only fight one war in the ancient age. In the medieval, handbuilding the Epic means passing up four maces, three knights, or two and a half cavalries. To my smug little empire, that isn't much. I would rarely waste a leader on it - only if I had a serious leader farm running, and thought it would pay off very quickly.
As for palaces, I now tend to run the FP the same way in PtW that I do in C3C; try to prebuild it to have it ready in a core town ASAP. In PtW, the palace can then jump away whenever a suitable spot has been found. And of course, my capital has only been a settler or unit pump so far, so disbanding it for a free palace jump is no great loss. The only downside is the logistics of gethering your army together to rebuild the palace. It helps if your new capital is next door to the next AI on the hit list, of course.
And wonders? There's another way to get them without hand-building them. And it also involves the AI passing on building a big stack of units ;)

Are you aware of CRP placement ?
I don't like to combine that with palace flipping as your FP will not be in the centre of your starting core. (I actually don't like palace flipping anyway as it includes abandoning a perfectly good city)
Your last sentence seems to contradict your whole story..... That last sentence looks like it's from my script.

What I try to do is to build my initial core using the best available spot method and place my FP in a spot between by current and future capital. Once the palace jump is complete, all of the cities in my original core are now considered in the 1st corruption rank. My second core (around my new palace) will normally be built on 2-3 concentric rings (usually either 3-5-8 or 4-6-9 distances).

I'm gonna do open. I'll try settling N-NE, on the river and in range of BGs, wine and gold. I'm just hoping that there's more forest than jungle(I think I can see 4 forests) With such little land it will pay to expand towards the enemy, if there is good terrain past the woods. There'll also be space for 2 cities near start location at ring 3.
If I get a leader i'll build a second core around a rushed FP in conquered territory, after hopefully a sword rush. I haven't built an AA wonder for ages, but I guess i'll have to. Capture Colossus then build HG I reckon. That would lead nicely into MA and knights.
By capturing theoretically a golden age could be trigerred anytime.
Looking forward to this one- conquest probably.

I know I'm not a 1st teir player, but what would be so bad about settling in place?
I know it would potentially cost 2 shields production from the hill, but if going for and early victory, mining hills probably wouldn't be too big an issue.

...what would be so bad about settling in place?I wouldn't say that it's bad as such. I suggested the moves that I am considering (depending upon the VC I'm going for) the following reasons:
20K: moving 1 tile SE will enable all wonders to be built in the capital, as it will make the city coastal. It will also improve production in the long run.

other VCs: moving 1 tile E will enable me to have a larger number of cities in my first ring (using RCP=3), whereas settling in place will only give me just over half a ring to place cities in. Production in the early game will be so much better due to this one move IMO.
Either way, I think that there is much to gain for the loss of one turn.

Are you aware of CRP placement ?
I don't like to combine that with palace flipping as your FP will not be in the centre of your starting core. (I actually don't like palace flipping anyway as it includes abandoning a perfectly good city)
Your last sentence seems to contradict your whole story..... That last sentence looks like it's from my script.

CRP placement isn't so important when using Paperbeetle's strategy due to the other rank corruption bug. When you do your free Palace Jump to the enemy core your cities will generally be rank 4-5 around your new capital. If you have been using a normal build pattern the towns around your FP (i.e. the first ring town) will generally be 2-4 and will all have minimum rank.

Thanks to all the players who want to test their skills in the challenge. For some reason, i'm not so brilliant in domination games as i am (sometimes) in conquest ones, so it won't be easy to win this one. But i'll do my best, as always.

See you in the spoiler threads, oh brave contenders!

(got it)

CRP placement isn't so important when using Paperbeetle's strategy due to the other rank corruption bug. When you do your free Palace Jump to the enemy core your cities will generally be rank 4-5 around your new capital. If you have been using a normal build pattern the towns around your FP (i.e. the first ring town) will generally be 2-4 and will all have minimum rank.

True, still, i just don't like it. Don't feel like thinking a lot about these things now, so we'll leave it at that :)
I seem to be doing just fine without palace jumps, and i think i would be doing worse if i did use the palace jump a lot. (I do think there are situations where it is good, but those would probably be long games, not conquest / domination games)

I'm pretty terrible at these challenges, I just dont seem to understand the game as much as i thought i did i guess. But I'm willing to try this one.
Question though, is it me, or was the game posted 2006-07-15, and the deadline is also 2006-07-15?

What? You can't do it in 24 hours? :p

Thanks for the heads up. Repeat after me ... Copy/paste/EDIT ;)

Not 24 hours when you live on the west coast and wake up in the middle of the day. Oh well, i need a new timezone

Well, I can't control when you wake up - maybe you need an alarm call? The game was posted at around midnight PST, so you slept for 12 hours after it was posted? You really need to get your priorities right :p

The deadline stated is a date. The actual deadline is midnight at the end of that date ... at the International Date Line. That's 11:00 AM GMT the following day. Even if you ignored it for 12 hours and then woke up at midday PST on 15th - that's 9 PM GMT? - you'd still have 14 hours. No problem :mischief:

Reality check: You have 31 days plus to complete this game. Have fun :D

I try to make a minimum of one error in each game release - consider it an easter egg ;)



:blush:

Oh well, i need a new timezone:rotfl:
I try to make a minimum of one error in each game release - consider it an easter egg ;)
And I once wondered why I subscribe to these threads :D

I am having a hell of a time deciding what to do. I down loaded predator save last night thinking I want to join the crowd but did not have the guts to start it. (It is a emperor level game for all practical purpose) I want so badly to go for 20K culture. What to do? What to do?

If I go for culture, I will build cap next to coast. Yes it will not be Predator.

If I go for PDC I would use scout to see over the mntn and decide where to take settler. I might waste up to 3 turns to look for a food bonus. Cow might be nice.

What to do? What to do?:confused:

If you settle on the luxury, will it then be connected or lost?

Connected ... in ten characters or more

Connected ... in ten characters or more

Funny....
I went to respond with a "Huh???", then I understood the ten character line.

what would be so bad about settling in place?

Well, Wine is a food resource, and food resources are completely lost when settled upon. You get two food from that tile also when you settle next to it. Compared to a Grassland tile there's of course no difference here.

You also often get slightly more commerce in the long run when not putting the capital (other cities are different) on a commerce resource. This is because you both get the capital centre commerce bonus and the tile bonus -- if you work the tile, which you will, thanks to the food bonus.

Then you also lose shields, one or two shields less depending on government, population, mine improvement.

Add to this the RCP advantages. Subtract being able to settle one or more turns faster and connecting your first luxury several turns earlier.

If you settle next to the wine hill, you'll work that tile immediately, it's like a roaded riverside BG. Pretty strong until you mine your first riverside normal BG. Eventually three tiles (Wine, BGx2) will each earn 2-2-2 in despotism. In republic/monarchy the Wine jumps to a whopping 2-3-3. Then start the Golden Age... At all stages this tile is best left unsettled.

Thank you, Più Freddo and Tone.

I don't really know what I will do, but thanks for th information. I know I really should know these things, but they seem to elude me.

Looks like this one is going to get skipped as COTM 26 just will not end.

I'll probably fill in whatever time is left before COTM 27 starts fooling around with Civ IV. I bought the original but it kept crashing my system. I never tried the new patch. So I'll reload it, add the new patch and put in that extra memory I picked up and see what it looks like.

Oh i like pangea maps and conquest games !
I'm gonna be on a vacation (including WackenOpenAir festival :)) until august 12 or so, so i can't join your challenge :(
August 12, that still gives you 4 days to finish the game, doesn't it? ;)

August 12, that still gives you 4 days to finish the game, doesn't it? ;)

You should count in some days for recovery... [party] :vomit: :D