Is the One City Challenge really that much more difficult? The higher difficulty levels see the AI expanding at an alarming rate. Playing OCC certainly solves the problem of how to keep up! :D But of course, it brings other problems -- namely the difficult acquisition of resources. :(


Game Settings Leader: TBD
Difficulty: Immortal
Map Type: TBD
Map Size: Standard
Speed: TBD (Normal Preferred)
Victory Condition: Just Win (All Enabled)
Opponents: 6 AI
Barbarians: TBD
Other Options: Permanent Alliances Enabled
Variant: One City Challenge (OCC)


Starting Screenshot

So, who is up for the challenge? OCC experience is not required but I would prefer that at least 1 or 2 players on the roster were not OCC virgins.

Roster:
Conroe
Methos
mike p
sooooo
adamlan

Please state your preferences (and reasoning) for leader, map, and barbarians when signing up.

Sign me up.

I'll be lurking here, sounds very interesting. Would have signed up if I wasn't going on holiday tomorrow. Good luck!

With an OCC game I prefer playing as Bismarck. Financial helps significantly with technology since we only have the one city. Industrious is nice as wonders are very helpful. With an OCC game I’ve found one of the best strategies is getting as many great people as possible and merging them as super citizens.

I typically play without barbs, but anymore I usually play HoF games.

Map-wise I don’t really have a preference. It would be better to be able to establish some sort of early contacts as relations and trading are extremely important IMO for an OCC game.

Edit: In case it matters, the last week of July I'll be out of state and have no civ access.

An Immortal OCC? Yikes! :eek: I wouldn't mind playing but my Noble butt would probably get creamed so I think I might just lurk and learn.

I've played a couple of OCC's at Noble a while back after reading an OCC Deity thread. I played as Saladin as was suggested in the thread and I might suggest the same for you guys, not that I'm an expert. I think the Philosophical and Spirtual traits plus starting with Mysticism and getting an early religion can be a good thing in an OCC. Just my opinion of course, for what it's worth.

Glad to have you on the team, Methos!

With an OCC game I've found one of the best strategies is getting as many great people as possible and merging them as super citizens.I agree. If we can manage to snag the Pyramids, Representation would give this strategy a real boost. Plus, the extra early happiness until the Globe is built would be a real help. Maybe one of the industrious civs that starts with Mining? That would give us a leg up on Masonry and the Pyramids, especially if we have a stone start. I'm thinking Bizmark (Exp), Gandhi (Spi), or Qin (Fin).

I've played a couple of OCC's at Noble a while back after reading an OCC Deity thread.Do you have a link?

I'm thinking Bizmark (Exp), Gandhi (Spi), or Qin (Fin).

Whoops, apparently its been a while since I played as Bismarck, as I was thinking he was Financial. Either way, Bismarch has always been my preferred OCC civ, with Qin as the 2nd.

Pyramids is a definite attempt with an OCC. Representation early plus the bonuses with the merged citizens work excellent together. Another one that is nice is the Great Lighthouse for the bonus trade routes.

Do you have a link?

OCC Deity (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=158675&highlight=deity+occ)

There are some good pointers in the article that would be useful regardless of the direction you decide to head. I'm sure you've already picked up on a lot of them though, since it sounds like you've played quite a few OCC's.

It does sound like Bismarck would be a pretty good choice. The extra health is good in an OCC.

I'm willing to play if you still need people. I've never beaten Immortal, but I can slug it out against the AI on Emperor, and have completed the OCC on Monarch.

Industrious sounds like a good idea. Early wonders help grab resources by cultural expansion and give a leg up on Great People points.

Expansive is nice for cheaper granaries, and we will almost certainly hit the health limit eventually, so it basically means we get specialist and a half from it in the late game.

Financial is OK, but we'll only have a few tiles that will be generating lots of commerce. It's one of the traits that gets better with larger empires.

Gandhi might be the best choice. Spiritual is always useful, and it means we don't miss any turns of production to anarchy. Flexibility with Civics and religion might also make it easier to deal diplomatically and snag a permanent alliance. Down side is that the UU isn't much help with so few tiles to improve. Gandhi also starts with mining & mysticsm.

On the other hand, Philisophical is nice too - Liz is great if there are seafood resources handy, and Redcoats need no special resources. But I think Gandhi might be best for this.

@LuvToBuild: Thanks for posting the link. It was certainly a well written and most interesting read. :thanx:

The strategy proposed in that thread appears to hinge on the idea that you have overloaded the map with players. IIRC, 18 civs on a small map was what the author suggested. I must admit that this is something that I had not thought of. But, it does seem a bit exploitive to me. I don't know, maybe that is the only way to win on deity -- I certainly haven't gotten a diety win yet. For this game, I think we will stick with the normal number of opponents.

The strategy also relies on obtaining a PA with another civ. I plan on enabling PA's for this game, but I am hoping that a win is something that we can do on our own. By the time a PA is available, we should have a pretty good idea of where we stand with the other civs. Having PA's enabled will be a good fall-back if we are too far behind. If we are doing pretty good, we may just beeline to Fiber Optics and build the Internet to catch up.

The thread does shed light on an interesting reason to choose a Spiritual leader, though. We would be in a better position to acquiesce to demands for civic/religion changes. After 5 (or 10?) turns, we could freely switch back. We could give in to these demands (to maintain/improve relations) without taking the 2 turn anarchy penalty. It certainly makes Gandhi a more attractive leader, but I'm not 100% convinced that is our best choice.

Welcome aboard, mike!

Excellent, we now have 3 people with OCC experience. We could use a couple more sign-ups, though.



Financial is OK, but we'll only have a few tiles that will be generating lots of commerce. It's one of the traits that gets better with larger empires.True, financial does improve with a large empire. But, on OCC every little extra commerce helps. Especially after all of the modifiers start kicking in.

Gandhi might be the best choice. Spiritual is always useful, and it means we don't miss any turns of production to anarchy. Flexibility with Civics and religion might also make it easier to deal diplomatically and snag a permanent alliance. Down side is that the UU isn't much help with so few tiles to improve.I find that I typically do not switch civics much in an OCC, as there are a handful of choices that seem to be optimized for OCC (ie Bureaucracy, Caste, etc). Honestly, though, I am not sure which would be the best leader for this game. My favorites, though, are the 3 Ind/Mining civs that I mentioned earlier.

We could always use the UU to do some exploration after all of our tiles are improved. :lol: You can also use them to bait the barbs to "guide" them away from improvements that you would prefer not to be pillaged.

Would you take me? Have never tried Immortal, but can beat Emporer roughly half the time. Have played OCC at Monarch level.

Favourite traits for OCC are Philosophical, Industrious and Expansive. Health barrier is really important for OCC where you don't have many resources. I like to generate lots of GPs and merge them, so philo or industrious. May I suggest Peter or Bismarck.

EDIT: Are we sure we want PAs allowed? It's fun to get a OCC PA at least once, but I find that it's not in the spirit of the variant and gets annoying when your partner doesn't behave sensibly.

Welcome aboard, sooooo!

EDIT: Are we sure we want PAs allowed? It's fun to get a OCC PA at least once, but I find that it's not in the spirit of the variant and gets annoying when your partner doesn't behave sensibly.Well, you are correct. My thinking was to enable it just in case things start going badly for us, as a way to salvage the game. We are probably going to be on fairly good terms with the "big scary civ next door" (hopefully) and may even already have a DP. If we feel like we need the PA, it would be an option for us. But, we can leave it off if that is what everybody wants ...

@LuvToBuildThe strategy proposed in that thread appears to hinge on the idea that you have overloaded the map with players. IIRC, 18 civs on a small map was what the author suggested. I must admit that this is something that I had not thought of. But, it does seem a bit exploitive to me. I don't know, maybe that is the only way to win on deity -- I certainly haven't gotten a diety win yet. For this game, I think we will stick with the normal number of opponents.

The strategy also relies on obtaining a PA with another civ. I plan on enabling PA's for this game, but I am hoping that a win is something that we can do on our own. By the time a PA is available, we should have a pretty good idea of where we stand with the other civs. Having PA's enabled will be a good fall-back if we are too far behind. If we are doing pretty good, we may just beeline to Fiber Optics and build the Internet to catch up.

Yeah there are aspects of it that seem exploitive or gamey on the surface. I think it was that thread or one like it where several people were debating about the difficulty of an OCC with 18 civs on a small map compared to the usual amount on a standard map. Good points were made by both sides and my own experience indicates that its not the slam dunk one might think. While its true that your opponents might only have one or two cities in the beginning, it probably won't be long before wars change that since the AI can capture and keep or raze and replace cities but you can't. Plus, there is a fair chance that you will find yourself at the bottom of the pecking order eventually. With 18 civs, you can bet that Monty, Napoleon, Genghis, or some such despot will make you his whipping boy. More times than not, you'll probably find yourself gangraped by all three at once. The first attempt I made on Noble with those settings, I had Catherine, Napoleon, and Monty all picking on me almost non-stop.

We have 4 players now. Do we want to go ahead and start or wait for a 5th? I'm agreeable to whatever the team decides.


We, of course, still need to pick a leader. Several suggestions have been put forward and we should probably take a vote.
Bizmark (Ind/Exp) Techs: Hunting & Mining UU: Panzer
Qin (Ind/Fin) Techs: Agriculture & Mining UU: Cho-Ko-Nu
Gandhi (Ind/Spi) Techs: Mining & Mysticism UU: Fast Worker
Elizabeth (Phi/Fin) Techs: Fishing & Mining UU: Redcoat
Peter (Phi/Exp) Techs: Hunting & Mining UU: Cossack
Saladin (Phi/Spi) Techs: Mysticism & Wheel: Camel Archer

I think I've listed them all. Let me know if I missed one that was mentioned.

I’m not very fond of using Philo for an OCC game. The trait benefits are definitely nice, but not as good as those from being Ind. IMO wonders are something we should definitely plan on and I’m thinking the benefits from being industrious will definitely help out playing immortal. Having never played immortal, I’m unsure how quick the AI builds wonders.

My vote would be for Bismark, as we’ll need the extra health. Happiness won’t be a problem due to Globe, but health will.

I’d suggest we go ahead and play, but than I’ll be gone from July 21st until July 29th so I'm a little biased. :)

I'm happy to play with a roster of 4 and with Bismark.

I'm fine with starting with 4. Any leader but Saladin is OK with me. He's fun for chasing lots of religions and for cultural victories, but the wheel is a useless worker tech by itself. So it sounds like Bismark.

Sorry that I was out of pocket all day. It ended up being rather hectic around here.

It sounds like we have decided to go with Bismark. I'll see about rolling us a couple of starts to choose from and we can get this game rolling. Nobody really has expressed any preferences on map or barbs. I will go ahead and use a random Pangaea with normal barb settings, unless anyone has any objections.

I'll see about getting us 3 or 4 starts to choose from. I like to be rather picky about OCC starts since we cannot improve on things later on. :)

Edit: I was going to roll some starts tonight, but I am just too tired. I need to go to bed -- I will roll some tomorrow after Church.

It turns out that rolling a couple of starts to look at isn't as easy as it sounds. :blush: I didn't think that my expectations were that high, as I was only looking for a start with 2 food resources and stone. I came up with 6 choices.

132711

This one has 1 food and stone. It is coastal with a large fresh water lake (3f with Lighthouse). I'm not sure if there is enough production potential with all of that water. This would have been a nice start for Qin, though!

132712

This one is also 1 food and stone. It is also coastal, but other than that not much really to admire.

132713

This one features 2 food and gems. The gems would be a nice commerce boost. It is also coastal and on a plains hill. And best of all, it is near the equator. We might be able to build the space elevator on this one.

132714

This one has 4 food and gems. It looks like it would have a natural choke point, making it easy to defend. A couple of extra resources for trading potential, but it seems too green to have any possibility for stone.

132715

This is a really interesting one, in that it appears to be inaccessible by land. It should be easy to defend, and I doubt that we would have any barb issues whatsoever. Plus, it has 3 food and a whale, as well.

No Thumbnail (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Civ4ScreenShot00061.JPG)

No thumbnail on this last one, as there is a five attachment limit. :crazyeye:

Since it has marble, I doubt that we would have stone for the Pyraminds. However, marble would definitely be an asset. It would be coastal with a fresh water lake in addition to the 2 food resources.

I like the third one. Has food, plains hill start, fresh water (really important), amazing science (hello grassland gems!) and production.

is there still a plce open if there is i wud luv to join

I agree with sooooo about the third one. We start with mining, which makes those grassland gems the equivalent of instant towns. Huge starting research potential. Just need to build a worker and off we go.

I don't really care so much about stone. It's nice to have for the Pyramids, but I don't think we're going to be able to build that many wonders anyway. I'm also not sold on the coast in general, though that looks like an awesome start. The nice thing about being in the interior for a OCC is that your cultural borders will encompass more land, which means you have a better shot of grabbing strategic resources as the game progresses.

Welcome aboard, adamlan! We now have a full roster.

I agree with sooooo about the third one. We start with mining, which makes those grassland gems the equivalent of instant towns. Huge starting research potential.I'm partial to the first and the fourth ones. The fourth one is probably my favorite, since it has so much long term potential. Four food resources is a big deal in an OCC, and 3 of them are unique (extra health). The sugar will eventually be extra health, and we will be able to trade one of the clams, the dye and the gems away. Plus, it looks like we would be able to setup a chokepoint atop a forrested hill for defense, should the need arise. If only it had stone ...

I don't really care so much about stone. It's nice to have for the Pyramids, but I don't think we're going to be able to build that many wonders anyway. I'm also not sold on the coast in general, though that looks like an awesome start. The nice thing about being in the interior for a OCC is that your cultural borders will encompass more land, which means you have a better shot of grabbing strategic resources as the game progresses.I think the Pyramids are very important. Switching to Representation early will give us a couple more badly needed happy faces until the globe is constructed. Plus, there is the added benefit of the extra beakers once we start running specialists. With stone, there is a good chance that we would snag the Pyramids.

I looked for a coastal start for a couple of reasons. Somebody mentioned having the Great Lighthouse would be advantagous. But, it also provides a measure of safety in war time, as there probably won't be any attacks from the sea.

Having said that, there is no reason that we must go with any of the starts that I have posted. Your point about potentially more resources is 100% correct! I am not opposed to rolling a few more (interior) starts. I will happily go along with whatever the team decides.

The problem with #4 is that it is very hammer poor. There's only one hill.

And while #5 is interesting in that we appear to be blocked off by land, it also means that we might not be able to hook up any resources on the other side of the mountains - we'd need either a river or to hook it up through another civ.

#3 has 2 food bonuses and plenty of hills, along with a river for commerce bonuses. It's got good everything.

Would the Great Lighthouse be that advantageous? Two bonus trade routes will probalby mean 2-6 commerce, which is nice, but we'd get a better bonus from merging a great scientist (6 beakers and a hammer). In the time it takes to build the wonder, we could have a couple of scientists working instead giving us beakers and still letting the city build stuff like units, a granary, or whatever.

We need to be selecitve about what wonders to pursue. Off the top of my head, I might see going after the following, (in order from most to least needed):

Pyramids - will definitely be helpful, especially for the Great Engineer points, which we can then use to rush the GL
Great Library - very helpful, IMO.
Oracle - obviously useful since it comes early and allows us to turn hammers into research.
Colossus - if we have bronze and no higher immediate priorities, it's probably a good investment, but we won't get much bonus commerce with only one city
Stonehenge, merely for the GPP, only since it is so cheap, and there may not be anything else much better to build early

Am I on the right track here?

The problem with #4 is that it is very hammer poor. There's only one hill.Your point about lack of hammers on start 4 is certainly valid.

Start #1 (after a Lighthouse) will have 13 excess food (2 for city center, 4 from pigs, 7 from fresh water lake). I count 15 base hammers (2 from city center, 4 from stone quarry, 4 plains hill, 3 grass hill, 2 from forests) with maybe 2 more after clearing the fog. The city would eat 4 of the excess food to work those hammer tiles, leaving 9 for specialists and growth.

That compares to 15 excess food from start #4, which only has 6 hammers. So you are right, #4 is probably a non-starter.

Start #3 (after a Lighthouse) will have 8 excess food (2 for city center, 3 from clams, 3 from corn), 5 of which would be needed to work the 4 hills. I counted at least 20 hammers (2 from city center, 9 from 3 grass hills, 4 plains hill, 2 gem mines, and 3 more from forests), with potential for 3-5 more hammers under the fog. Wow! That is a lot of hammers, but I'm concerned about the lack of food.

Both starts suffer from a lack of variety in health resources. This is the big advantage that #4 offered.

i reckon u post a few more strts but i wud personnaly go wit site 3 with all those hammers it means we can build alot of wonders

If we want wonders then number 4 is useless until lumbermills (i.e. useless). Start 1 will probably build the pyramids slightly faster than start 3, but start 3 will build everything else faster and have a (much) better science rate. Start 3 is basically a dream start - the "lack" of food can be compensated by it having more land than 1 and 4 and being on a river, which lets us irrigate the grassland for 3 0 1 tiles. For me it's start 3 no contest. We can trade the gems away for health resources.

Well, we haven't heard from Methos, but three players have voted for start #3. So, I guess we'll go with that one ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_Settings.JPG
The game settings


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_Bizmark.JPG
Our leader


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_Start.JPG
Our Start



Roster:
Conroe
Methos
mike p
sooooo
adamlan

I'll start us off with 20 turns and then we will go to a 10 turn rotation after that. It'll be some boring turns the first go 'round, but it will give us a chance to discuss the tech path.

I'm thinking of starting us off with Fishing, Masonry, and then Agriculture. After that, maybe AH or BW depending on what the terrain looks like; possibly Archery if the barbs warrant it. Production-wise, I'm thinking Warrior-Work Boat-Worker. I'll be playing this later this evening unless there are objections.

Sorry, been busy with my turnset for SGOTM1.

Honestly I wasn't for sure which one I preferred best, but have no problem playing #3.

Build-wise I'd go for a worker first, followed by either a second worker or a work boat.

Build-wise I'd go for a worker first, followed by either a second worker or a work boat.I figured the Worker would go quicker if the seafood were hooked up. But, we need to discover Fishing before we can build a Work Boat. So, I am going to start us on a Warrior (since we have only a Scout) and preempt it for a Work Boat. By that time, we should be size 2 and should be able to build a Worker a little quicker. That's the theory, at least.



Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Berlin founded
Berlin is founded on the spot. We will have a 2nd corn just outside our city radius available for trading. It's ashame it isn't inside our city radius. :sad: I also see some desert tiles SE of Berlin; they could possibly hold some metal for us.

Berlin begins: Warrior
Research begun: Fishing

Turn 1 (3960 BC)
We will also be able to trade some spices ...

Turn 3 (3880 BC)
Contact made: American Empire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_3880BC_MeetFDR.JPG

Turn 4 (3840 BC)
Eventually, we will have dyes for trading. The Americans will also have dyes for sale.

IBT:
Berlin's borders expand
Remember that goody hut just outside of our border in the starting screenshot?
Tribal village results: technology
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry :cooool:
The horses are far to the north; we will need to hit the 5K culture mark to bring them into our borders.

Turn 6 (3760 BC) IBT:
Tech learned: Fishing

Turn 7 (3720 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Our Warrior only has 1 turn remaining, so I am going to delay the Work Boat.

IBT:
Berlin grows: 2
Berlin finishes: Warrior

Turn 8 (3680 BC)
Berlin begins: Work Boat

Turn 9 (3640 BC)
Roosevelt is close, very close. Will he be our protector or our bully? Probably too weak to be either ...

I do some MM of Berlin to time the completion of the Work Boat with the city growth. That way we will be size 3 when we start our Worker build.

IBT:
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 12 (3520 BC) IBT:
While defending, Scout defeats (0.87/1): Barbarian Wolf at 99.5 percent.

Turn 16 (3360 BC) IBT:
Berlin grows: 3 (happiness cap is 4)
Berlin finishes: Work Boat
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 17 (3320 BC)
Berlin begins: Worker

Contact made: Egyptian Empire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_3320BC_MeetHatty.JPG

IBT:
Tech learned: Masonry

Turn 18 (3280 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture

Notes:
Uneventful start. Worker will be ready in 5 turns with Agriculture in 6. Since we have no stone, I say we get started on the Pyramids ASAP. We can preempt them for a Warrior or 2 if barbs warrant. But, with the Americans so close, I don't think barbs will be much of an issue.

Do we want to research Bronze Working next? Or should we start down the long path to Literature straight away?

Here is a look at our little corner of the pennisula:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_3200BC_OurLands.JPG

And here is a look at the known world:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_3200BC_TheWorld.JPG

I must say, this is the oddest shaped pangaea map that I've seen. I see water to the north and south, as if we are on a rather large pennisula. But, we are located on the equator. It will be interesting to see the final shape of the map.




Roster Check:
Conroe - Just Played
Methos - UP
mike p - On Deck
sooooo
adamlan

Got it. I believe you said 10 tens apiece now?

I think we should go for BW first, due to all the forests around us. IMO those forests will hinder us more if we try and save them for lumbermills. I suggest we get BW and than chop them to speed the Pyramids up. Plus, we can than place cottages on the grass river tiles.

Don't forget the forests provide health for specialists. But you're right we may need to chop them to get the wonders.

Let's be clear about the wonders we're aiming for. Agree pyramids and great library. I would also try for Oracle and Parthenon - thoughts? Wouldn't bother with lighthouse - it falls too early for only a small benefit.

Cottages will probably be a low priority initially. What do we have for happy faces at this level? If it's five with the gems, then we'll be working 2 gems, the clams, and two mines. No time for cottages until we get our happiness cap up farther anyway. Either way, the tile 1W of Berlin should be farmed instead of cottaged so that we can irrigate the corn eventually.

Bronze working is probably a good idea. A couple of chops could be the difference between grabbing the Pyramids and missing them. If we have bronze in range, that could also help our production, obviously.

Rather than Pottery, I'd prioritize Archery. Agriculture is nice, but I think the clams and the gems are better to work than the corn, at least for now. I'd suggest we stop Agriculture, learn bronze working, then grab archery so we can whip an archer out if our defenses get thin.

Then possibly the wheel if there's bronze to hook up, then beeline to Alphabet and trade for all the other starting techs. If we work the gems hard enough, we might even get Alphabet before some Civs get Writing on this level!

-Edited to add:

I say yes to the Pyramids. Oracle would be nice, but we need to research 3 techs that are only marginally useful to get there and wait until the Pyramids are done to start it. I don't think we're likely to pull it off. Parthenon is OK, but expensive, if we had marble I'd say give it a shot. We might be better off building barracks and some archers though. We've got to keep our power rating up or else someone will start picking on us. (At least Hatty and FDR are reasonable neighbors.)

Rather than Parthenon, we could sidetrack to Mysticism and Stonehenge. Its culture would help us grab the horses a lot sooner, and it's cheap. Much less reward, but also much less risk.

Let's be clear about the wonders we're aiming for. Agree pyramids and great library. I would also try for Oracle and Parthenon - thoughts? Wouldn't bother with lighthouse - it falls too early for only a small benefit.I can't see us getting Pyramids and Oracle both. Since we don't have stone, the Pryamids are going to take a bit to build. I'd be inclined to not even try. Hopefully we will pop a GE while researching Literature and it will build the GL for us.

Either way, the tile 1W of Berlin should be farmed instead of cottaged so that we can irrigate the corn eventually.Good eye! It will be a shame to lose all of the forests, but that one will definitely have to go.

Rather than Pottery, I'd prioritize Archery.The only reason we would need Archery is if the barbs get out of hand. With the proximity of FDR, I don't think barbs will be a factor for very long. He is going to be forced to expand west because he is rather close to Hatty.

Plus, Pottery is on the way to Literature (unless we go the Oracle route). And, we will also need it for a Granary.

Turn 3, 3080 BC:
IT- Wow, interesting inter-turn, as we meet both Isabelle and Saladin.

132935

132937

Turn 4, 3040 BC:
IT- Worker>Pyramids (75 turns to complete)

Turn 5, 3000 BC: The worker moves to the corn. Looks like everything’s coming in two’s, as we meet both Alexander and Napoleon.

132938

132936

IT- Research Agriculture>Bronze Working (14 turns to complete)

Turn 6, 2960 BC: Worker begins irrigating the corn.

Turn 8, 2880 BC: Sorry, stupid mistake. Just realized that going for the corn first was foolish. I stop the worker to move him to the gems. Sorry guys.

Notes:
Berlin grows in two, and will be at her happiness limit until we can connect the gems.

Roster:
Conroe
Methos- Just Played
mike p- Up
sooooo- On Deck
adamlan

Well, we haven't been wiped out yet.

2800 BC - Hit enter.

until 2680 BC, when Judaism is founded in a distant land. Since no one converts, it's probably Saladin or Isabella, who already have religions anyway.

2640 BC Our science output is nearly doubled as our first gems tile is hooked up.

2520 BC Bronze working complete, start the wheel, due in 4. Copper just where I wanted it. I love it when a plan comes together!

132960

2400 BC Wheel was done in 3 since the second gems got on line. Started a copper mine, and set research to writing. Switched Berlin from the corn tile (3 food) to hills river (1f, 1h, 1c). We can't use the food until we get more happy faces, need the hammer, and one extra commerce couldn't hurt.

132961

I haven't revolted to Slavery yet. We might want to do immediately. Once the worker finished the copper mine, the production cost of a turn of anarchy goes up. As soon as the pyramids are whippable, we should pull the trigger.

Techwise, I strongly suggest writing to alphabet and then make a few trades. Might not want to trade for the earlier techs though since our science rate is so high - little sense in using the tech trading limit on something like Mysticism that we can research in 3 turns.

Worker should mine the river grassland hill that Berlin is working, then a chop or two, then road the copper, IMO.

Copper just where I wanted it. I love it when a plan comes together!

Techwise, I strongly suggest writing to alphabet and then make a few trades.Copper in the city radius! :thumbsup:

I would suggest not trading Alphabet away until the Great Library is built, if feasible. I've found that the AI do not prioritize Alphabet, but once known can sometimes beeline for Lit.



Roster Check:
Conroe
Methos
mike p - Just Played
sooooo - UP
adamlan - On Deck

Quick and easy turns:

IHT: Revolt to Slavery. So does Hatshepsut.

T3: Mine complete.

T4: Isabella to slavery. Start road on copper.

T5: Saladin to slavery.

T6: Copper hooked up, move to grassland hill.

T8: Writing -> Alphabet. Our scout dies to a barbarian archer.

T10: Grassland mine finishes. Pyramids due in 11, alphabet in 14.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7050/berlin2000zr3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

weres the save

Ooooops :blush:

I'm at work now so I won't be able to upload the save until I get home tonight ... very sorry.

The save is here.

Roster Check:
Conroe- On Deck
Methos- [Skip between July 21-29]
mike p
sooooo- Just Played
adamlan- Up

Silly Lurker Question

Either way, the tile 1W of Berlin should be farmed instead of cottaged so that we can irrigate the corn eventually.

Why does this matter? I'm not seeing any possibility for you guys to irrigate the corn. Does placing a farm on the opposite side of the river spread irrigation to the corn? I wouldn' think so. I don't think the city being on a hill will help to spread irrigation either.

Irrigation can flow diagonally SE to the corn from our future farm. You're right that it won't flow through the city on the plains hill, although it can flow through one on a grassland hill.

I don't think it flows through grassland hills either. Need to visit the world builder I guess.

turn 1- nutin happens

turn 2- borders expand strt farmin corn south of berlin

turn 3- nutin

turn 4- napoleon asks for ob i dont no y not so i accept

turn 5- nutin

turn 6-nutin


turn 7- strt farmin 2nd corn

turn 8- nutin

turn 9- nutin

turn 10- nutin

turn 11- i played an extra turn by accident sorry
but we get the pyramids on this turn plus we grow to size 6 i switch to representation to keep our citizens happy.

soz about the extra turn

heres the save

@Methos: I know you are getting ready to leave town and may not have time. But if you'd like to get a turn in before you leave, we can do a swap.

@Methos: I know you are getting ready to leave town and may not have time. But if you'd like to get a turn in before you leave, we can do a swap.

That would be great! I can play late tonight (as in early morning) so that works out great for me. Thanks!

Got it.

Thanks for the offer, but it appears I ran out of time. I won't be able to take the swap.

Skip me until the 30th please, though I should get back sometime late on the 29th. Good luck!

Turn 61 (1560 BC)

The inherited save shows us to be in anarchy. Since there is nothing to see in our city, I take a look at the diplomacy. We have an open borders agreement with Napoleon. Napoleon and Alexander are best buddies. Alexander is by far the power leader. So, I decide to sign open borders with Alexander.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1560BC_AlexOB.JPG

This may not be the wisest move, as Roosevelt, our next door neighbor, is annoyed with Alexander. We may be forced to choose between the two of them in the future. But, for the time being, it makes sense to build brownie points with the biggest dude on the block. :undecide:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1560BC_Power.JPG

The demographics screen is rather interesting. We are ranked 2nd in GNP right behind Roosevelt.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1560BC_Demo.JPG

Turn 62 (1520 BC)
The anarchy is over and I see that we are researching Alphabet, due in 3 turns. We are still lacking a couple of basic techs in Fishing (5 Turns) and Pottery (4 Turns). I guess the plan is to trade for them, but I suspect that Alphabet is the only tech of any value that we will have.

The AI tends to not prioritize Alphabet. But, once they do get it, they seem to quickly go after Literature and Music. I think it behooves us to hold off completing Alphabet until we get a Lighthouse, Granary, and Library constructed. Hopefully by then the Pyramids will have produced us a Great Engineer that we can use to construct the Great Library. Unfortunately, that GE is 49 turns away at this point. :sad: Ok, maybe not ...
Research begun: Pottery

We only have the tech for one of the 3 buildings that we really need ...
Berlin begins: Library

Turn 66 (1360 BC)
Research: Pottery->Sailing

Turn 69 (1240 BC)
Berlin: Library->Granary

Turn 70 (1200 BC)
Berlin grows: 7
Research: Sailing->Alphabet still due in 3 turns

I would suggest Literature next followed by Music. Music would be good for the free Great Artist. A culture bomb would go a long way to pulling those horses into our cultural borders.

There is 1 turn left on the Granary. After that should we try and grab the Great Lighthouse while researching Literature? It is only 15 turns. Although, your decision may be influenced by this little gem that popped up on the last turn:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1200BC_Map.JPG

A barb city on our doorstep. :rolleyes: It looks like our extra corn is going to be pillaged before we can even trade it. :lol: I'd like to see us grab the Great Lighthouse, but obviously an Axeman or two is probably a higher priority.



Roster Check:
Conroe- Just Played
Methos- [Skip between July 21-29]
mike p - UP
sooooo- On Deck
adamlan-

Conroe, I really don't understand your Alphabet reasoning. Stop researching with three turns to go because we don't want to trade it? We were #2 in GNP, running 100% science, even on Immortal there should be techs to grab, as it turns out, there were, but we probably missed some opportunities by waiting 10 turns to complete it.

1200 BC I stop working a forest to hire a scientist. Alphabet in 2 instead of 3.

1160 BC with the cottage complete, I stop working the corn and start working the cottage tile. No point in running a big food surplus at our happiness level anyway.

1120 BC Alphabet done. Fire Scientist. Oracle built in a distant land. I was expecting to hear that Confucianism was founded, but it appears that it wasn't. Even if 2 turns of a scientist contaminates our GE points, an academy will boost our science more than the Great Library anyway. (Though the library is better overall because it will also pretty much guarantee us an Academy later.)

I trade with Isabella - sailing for archery, and Saladin, sailing for mysticism.

I start building an Axeman. We are pitifully weak.

Researchwise, I start Drama. Once it's in, we should build a theater and the Globe. Then worry about a lighthouse or other wonders. Gotta get happy!

1080 BC I trade Hatty writing for Meditation. Isabella demands Writing. I fork it over. We're going to get pushed around a lot by the AI and better get used to caving in. Especially when our military consists of a single warrior. Despite Alex's talk about how Hatty is evil, he doesn't take offense at the trade (probably because his relationship with her was still at +1)

1040 BC Axeman complete, start barracks.

1000 BC Trade meditation to Alex for Priesthood.

925 BC Alex makes an offer we can't refuse. I thought I took a screenshot, but I guess I didn't. He asks us to declare war on Isabella. Our barracks are done and we'll have an archer next turn too, so now that we're mighty I declare war.

Isabella will have to go through Alex to get to us, she's going to turtle up with no open borders, have no other Buddhist friends and be the continental pariah all game who will hate us anyway because we don't share a religion. And we're sucking up to Alex anyway, so war it is. And if she gets some units all the way across the continent we can one of our axes promoted and build the Heroic epic.

That's pretty much it.

The worker is almost done roading up the gems. I suggest that he chops and irrigates 1 W of Berlin. Timing the chop to speed along the Theater or Globe Theater would be nice to eliminate our happiness cap sooner.

After drama we should head for literature. I'd also recommend pumping out a few more axemen, just to keep the game from ending early.

Here's a snapshot of Berlin, along with my worker suggestions.
133281

Farm 1W, and Cottage 1NW and the plains to the west of that. Cottages east of Berlin will probalby just get pillaged anyway at some point, so I wouldn't even bother. I don't understand why some people avoid cottaging plains in favor of grasslands. If you have one of each, it generally doesn't matter which you farm and which you cottage, except for the availability of water.

Mike, I think those were some great turns. Agree with drama - it is the most important tech in the game for an OCC. Will go for literature next. Got it.

IHT: Hit enter. Not much to micromanage in a OCC :). Decide not to trade away alphabet until we get further towards literature.

T1 - Annoyingly, a jungle grows on the hill I was going to mine next turn. We don't have IW yet so there's nothing we can do about it. Roosey is sending an archer towards barb town. I'm curious so I put an axeman on the hill outside.

T2 - Axeman -> Lighthouse (4 turns).

T3 - Alex converts to Hinduism. Ha, that won't make Izzy like him any more :lol:. Roosey ignores barb town, he now has a city south of it.

T5 - Drama -> Literature. Huh, what's that, I can't research literature yet? Oh yeah, set research to Polytheism :mischief: Chop forest 1W of Berlin. Roosevelt to Hinduism.

T6 - Lighthouse -> Theatre. Christianity FIDL.

T7 - Chop completes, hammers towards theatre. Great Lighthouse BIDL. Good job we didn't chase that one. Farm tile I chopped.

T8 - Theatre -> Globe Theatre. Open borders with the Hindu guys Saladin and Roosevelt. I want it to spread to us. We now have a trade route with Washington so hopefully it will happen soon. Trade our spare gems to Roosevelt for Silk, so we can now work the corn again.

T9 - Polytheism -> Literature. Spot barb archer, will wait for him to move out of the forest onto our extra corn. Move other axe nearby to intercept.

T10 - Promote axe to Combat 1, kill archer. Our first kill! Globe is due in 10 turns, literature in 7.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4324/belin825bchg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The trades available:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8000/favf7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In 3-4 turns time I think we should trade away alphabet. No one will be able to research literature and build the GL before us, even if they wanted to.

Our Literary Master adamlan is UP!

We really want the GA from Music? After Literature I vote Code of Laws for next tech. It's very good trade material and is on the way towards Civil Service, the second most important tech in OCC. Plus there's an outside chance of founding confucianism.

Trade reccomendations: In 3 turns Trade alpha for Mathematics from Roosevelt and Monarchy from Saladin when (if?) he's willing to trade. IW from Alex for Mathematics. Mono from Hatty for IW. EDIT: correction.

Sugar is now in our borders to hook up. When Berlin grows in 4 turns we should switch production from the corn to a forest, and put the new citizen on a forest too. This will shave a turn off the Globe.

Good work sooooo.

That really stinks that the jungle covered our hill. We need more hammers. Again, I suggest cottaging the plains west of Berlin - it's one the highest hammer tiles still unused and we can start towards building a town there.

Diplomacy is going to be a huge part of this game. We really need to consider the impact of refusing AI demands. Becoming Hindu will be a huge relief, at least until the other AIs found another religion.

We might want to head for Code of Laws after literature. If we can snag Confucianism we can send the missionary to Egypt, convert her and get the rest of the world pissed at her. After Drama, the next most important tech in a OCC is probably Civil Service anyway. Instant +50% to science and production.

Lurker comment - I would personally go for music and use the free culture bomb to lay early claim to those resources in the 5th ring of city expansion. You have both prerequisites giving you a research discount, and the tech has good trade value.

Good work, mike and soooo! :goodjob:

There is no doubt that Civil Service is a must have tech. I just think that a culture bomb at this juncture could net us the horses up north. It will take a little longer since FDR planted a city there, but we would eventually grab them. If we don't think we will need them, then by all means beeline for CS.




Roster Check:
Conroe- On Deck
Methos- [Skip between July 21-29]
mike p
sooooo- Just Played
adamlan- Up

A culture bomb would be a waste on two fronts.

First off, Music now means Civil Service later. We'll expand eventually and grab those resources even without the great artist.

Secondly, if we settle the Great Artist, we get 3 gpt and 3 beakers per turn, thanks to Representation. Both of which will be nearly tripled by the time we finish all of the multiplier buildings and Oxford and Wall Street. The culture is basically meaningless.

Otherwise, I'd spend the great artist on a tech, if it's something we need.

Also, once Globe is done, think about building another Axe. By the time someone declares on us it will be too late to build an army out of one city. We must stay strong!

turn 1- nutin

turn 2- strt cottagin plains tile

turn 3- alex founds confucianism

turn 4- the barb city is captured by roosevelt

turn 5- i trade alpha 4 math with roosevelt hatty converts to confucianism

turn 6- borders expand napoleon converts to hinduism

turn 7- i decided gainst going 4 music as i guessed saladin wud get it neway so i str on confucianism dun in 12 alex dps wit izzy

turn 8- alex asks 4 alpha i give it to him

turn 9- i trade alpha 4 IW off saladin

turn 10- the globe finishes i strt on an axeman 3 turns till we get a GE which will get us the GL 8 turns till COL finishes.

Sounds pretty good. Glad to see we're building some more axemen. I started a OCC on Immortal today with Bismark and I'm still around in the industrial era, but whenever my military power started lagging the AI would try to take advantage.

If we can stay stronger than the weakest AI, we should be OK.

Hey Team! I am stuck and need some input.

FDR is demanding that we cancel all deals with Alexander. Our only deal with him is an open borders treaty. Alex, of course, is the power leader; but FDR is our next door neighbor. Alex has recently declared war on Hatty.

Currently, Alex and Napoleon are the only civs pleased with us. Everyone else is cautious, with Izzy being furious over the war.

I'm thinking we need to cancel, but I thought I would solicit some advice before I do it. The power graph is attached.

Yeah, that's a real stinker. FDR isn't going to like us anyway, because our culture will be pushing back on his borders. So I'd lean towards staying loyal to Alex. Either way, we should probably build more axemen!

Hrm, is Alex likely to attack us being so far away?

I've seen Alex send a stack at me across longer distances. Right now we're still in a war together, so we really ought to grab all the points we can with him.

On the other hand, if he is supreme in power, we probably can't ally with him and will need to take him down eventually.

In the OCC Immortal game I just played, I got a PA with Rome, who was the tech leader at the time, but Napoleon passed us out because team research is slowed. I didn't declare on France until too late, and he launched in 1956 while we still had about 4 turns to go to finish Fusion. So we might need to take out Alex eventually. It was a good learning experience though.

Well, I spent my 10 turns concentrating on growing our city. We are up to 11 population, now. Civil Service is due in 13 turns. I used our GE to build the Great Library, and also trained a couple of Axemen and a Spearman.

Our next GP is in 8 turns, with a 60% probability for a Great Scientist (20% each for GA and GE).

I didn't do much trading, as the AI was keeping most of the good techs close to their vest. Although after this last turn, they have loosened up some and are willing to part with Currency and Construction. I don't like to do deals on the last turn, so I leave the negotiating to Mike P. I did, however, pick up Calendar and Monotheism after Code of Laws came in. I'm pretty sure that Literature is still a monopoly, but a couple of folks have Drama.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_125BC_Trades.JPG

Saladin sent a Hindu Missionary our way. I think we should convert. It would help our relations with FDR. Alex is Confucian, but we have a +6 with him.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_125BC_Scorecard.JPG

I had a tough time trying to decide whether to give in to FDR's demand to stop trading with Alex. In order for Alex to get to us, he would have to cross FDR's land. I felt we would probably be safe from any attack from Alex. But then, I noticed in the background that Saladin's borders were encroaching on Roosevelt's. It appeared to me that FDR was getting boxed in from all sides. I also felt that if FDR were to ever change religions, it could ease tensions enough between the two that Alex could get an OB agreement. Plus, I felt that FDR would get over our refusal quicker than Alex would if we cancelled our deals. So, I ended up declining.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_200BC_Culture.JPG

The above map shows the borders at the time I refused Rosevelt's demand. Since then, he was able to get the free Great Artist from Music and did a culture bomb in Harappan. That cost us 4 border tiles.

Isabella wants a tech in exchange for peace. My guess is that she would accept 10 gold, except for the fact that neither of us has Currency. We are still at war with her. I've seen no hint of any troops.

Since Alex has made peace with Isabella, I dial her up to see how much peace will cost us. She wants Alphabet. The price seems a bit steep to me. So I leave us at war with her.

As Adamlan noted, we are 8 turns away from Code of Laws and our first great person will be born in 3 turns. We have a 95% probability for a Great Engineer.

Turn 100 (375 BC)
The only change that I make is to start working the corn, since we are stagnant at size 8.

IBT:
FDR demands Drama and I cave in.
Isabella offers peace in exchange for Iron Working. I counter with a straight peace treaty, but she is not interested.

Turn 101 (350 BC)

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Axeman

Turn 102 (325 BC)
Berlin begins: Spearman

IBT:
Imhotep (Great Engineer) born in Berlin

Turn 103 (300 BC)
Berlin begins: The Great Library
After burning the GE, I fire the scientist and rework the tiles for growth. Research into CoL still 5 turns remaining.

IBT:
Berlin finishes: The Great Library

Turn 104 (275 BC)

IBT:
Berlin grows: 9
Berlin finishes: Spearman
Napoleon demands our spare corn. Probably ought to renegoiate this deal in 10 turns; hopefully someone will have something to offer for our corn.

Turn 105 (250 BC)
I was going to build an Aquaduct, but frankly I'm getting tired of all of these demands.
Berlin begins: Axeman
It is going to take awhile, though, since our city is geared for growth at the moment.

IBT:
Alexander declares war on Hatshepsut.

Turn 106 (225 BC)

IBT:
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Berlin grows: 10

FDR demands that we cancel all deals with Alexander. I decline.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_200BC_FDR.JPG

BTW, Roosevelt is also the receipient of the free Great Artist from Music. I wouldn't be surprised if he does a culture bomb in the former barb city of Harappan.

Turn 107 (200 BC)
Research begun: Civil Service showing 19 turns

And, it looks like Saladin is sending a Hindu Missionary our way. It looks like soooo's wish is coming true.

Trade Code of Laws to Saladin ...
Tech learned: Calendar
Tech learned: Monotheism

IBT:

Turn 108 (175 BC)

IBT:
Hinduism has spread: Berlin

Turn 109 (150 BC)
I hire a couple of scientist to speed up CS research. The city will still grow next turn.

IBT:
Berlin grows: 11
Berlin finishes: Axeman

Turn 110 (125 BC)
Berlin begins: Axeman

It was an era of peace, prosperity, and good eats. Our health is a lot better. I managed to get us cows, rice, and fish. I made peace with Spain for 60 gold.

100 BC I take Conroe's advice and check the trade windows. I give Monotheism and Drama to Napoleon for Monarchy. Not a big deal, but it seemed harmless enough. Also make a gems for cows trade with Saladin. All of our happiness resources that won't also give us health are expendable.

75 BC I go back and forth on this one for a while but end up pulling the trigger. I ship FDR Code of Laws and Literature for Currency and 100 gold.

I must admit that my build orders were a mess at the start. I put one turn into an axeman, then decided to start a monestary for more beakers. The following turn I realized that the National Epic was available and started that instead.

50 BC FDR Adopts Vassalage. We'll start seeing longbows soon.

25 BC Nothing happens.

1 AD Anyone seen Jesus around?

25 AD Nothing

50 AD Hatty asks me to cancel our deals with Greece. I decline.

75 I talk to Alex, looking to make a trade. He has two rice available and we have nothing. "Could you spare this for a good friend?" He agrees.

We also spawn a Great Engineer. I was really torn as to what to do with him. We could have used him to discover Metal Casting,which no one has yet. Then build a forge and the colossus. Metal Casting is only 7 turns away at current research rates, and that will go down once we switch to Bureaucracy. It has a total cost of 730 beakers.

I figure the game will go at least 200 more turns, probably more like 250, but at 200 turns he'll give us 600 hammers and 1200 beakers, before any modifications for buildings or Civics. So I merged him. Don't be shy about telling me if you think there was a better option, but it seemed like the best and every turn we wait is time wasted.

If we take Metal Casting next, we'll probably still be the first ones to research it and even if we're second, we'll still be able to grab the Colossus, since we're industrious, have copper, and will be running Bureaucracy.

100 BC I trade Monotheism and Drama to Alex for Horseback Riding and 120 gold. There's probably a good joke in there about giving my Greek boyfriend Mono in exchange for bare back ride, but there might be kids reading this thread. (And I don't swing that way anyway!)

125 BC I need a cigarette.

150 BC I look longingly at Napoleon's fish. I wish we had something to trade for it. Checking out our current deals, I see we are giving him Corn for nothing. I renegotiate that to get Fish for Corn.

Our worker is almost done with a plantation on the sugar, which is basically trade bait. (though will provide health with grocers, if I'm not mistaken)

I'd suggest building a farm on east of town. Right now we're working 2 grassland mines for a total of 2 F 6H 1C. Working another grassland farm on the river and the copper instead will give 3F 6H 1C. At least we should pick up another food when the Corn gets irrigated from Civil Service, due next turn.

Religionwise, I think converting to Hinduism right now isn't necessary. Napoleon and Alex will probably drop from Pleased if we do. But if one of the Hindus ask that we convert, then maybe we should to avoid a hit with them. Organized Religion would help with buildings though.

Merging the great engineer was definitely the correct plan. I think we should merge every specialist we get except the scientist we will (hopefully) get next who can build an academy.

BTW, Saladin has had Metal Casting since my last turnset (see my screenshot of the trading screen) and FDR has it now. Neither will trade it, and I expect they are building the colossus.

Here's my plan, what do you think:

Research philosophy next (10 turns). There's a chance to found Taoism but that's fairly useless. But it allows pacifism. I know Mike says we should stay with no state religion, but I think pacifism is really important for an OCC. When the national epic is also done, this should allow us to get many specialists.

Alex doesn't really care about relations, all he worries about when he declares war is how powerful you are. So I think we can go to Hinduism once philosophy comes in. He has no open borders with FDR (they hate each other) so all we have to worry about is a naval invasion, which the AI are notoriously bad at.

Also, I plan to trade civil service for feudalism and build some longbows.

I'll play tomorrow so there's plenty of time for discussion.

EDIT: And I think we need more farms. I don't like the cottage on the plains tile but I'll leave it alone for now. I'd like to farm over all of those forests and the free river tile. Forests provide 0.5 health, which equates to an extra 0.5 food. Farms provide an extra 1 food. More specialists!

I normally merge all of my great people, as well, when playing OCC. However, taking a look around first to see what he can do first will never hurt. Pacifism sound like a good plan, as well. After that, I think we should head for Education and then take a look at Liberalism.

I think it might be worthwhile to take a Metal Casting detour. Even if we miss the Colossus, a forge will improve production.

IHT: Nothing at all

T1 (175 AD) - Civic Service came in and we chose Metal Casting. Revolt to Bureaucracy.

T4 (250 AD) - Hatty made peace with Alexander

T5 (275 AD) - National Epic completes, start hindu monastery that was part-built

T7 (325 AD) - Metal Casting -> Philosophy. Hindu monastery completes, start axeman (also part-built)

T8 (350 AD) - Izzy demands Metal casting. I say no. Axe completes, start forge.

T9 (375 AD) - Taoism founded in Atlanta.

T10 (400 AD) - Begged 180 gold from Napoleon. Forge completes. I set Berlin to build a spear, but no hammers invested. We can build the colossus in 5 turns at max production, but even at that pace I doubt we'll get enough use out of it before it expires. We are getting 36 GPPPT and should have a scientist next turn (academy :)).

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/1785/berlin400adap3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

True that we'll only be getting one commerce per turn from the Colussus. Building it will still provide GPPs and culture and will deny a big commerce bonus to the AI. If there's nothing else compelling for five turns, it might be worth it on those grounds alone.

I also think Colussus would be good for denial purposes. It also looks like we could use an Aquaduct, as well. I think we ought to head towards Education after Philo comes in.



Roster Check:
Conroe- On Deck
Methos- [Skip between July 21-29]
mike p
sooooo- Just Played
adamlan- Up

Well, I was thinking about getting machinery next for macemen. There is a trade available for Feudalism too, but I haven't made it yet. We still have a monopoly on CS.

Well, unless we are planning on needing Macemen right away, we should be able to pick up Machinery in a trade for either Paper or Education. In the meantime, we pick up a University and have a head start on the free Liberalism tech.

got it will play tonite i agree with heading to education next nd we do need an aqueduct to grow sum more i dont no bout the colossus tho i think we shud hav a vote wether 2 build it or not it might be gd

We're always going to be at or near the health cap, so we may as well get used to it. Aquaduct is also a good build, but it will still be there once the Colussus is done. Are the Hanging Gardens gone already?

I suggest trying to trade sugar for another health resource.

@adamlan: Have you had a chance to play, yet?

Just letting you all know I'm back. Looks like the game is going great!

:hmm: It looks like Adamlan has gone AWOL on us and the game has stalled.

Ok, I've got it and will play now. Methos is on deck.

I suggest trying to trade sugar for another health resource.At the start, there were no health resources to trade. But, Alex ended up canceling our free rice deal, so I traded him the sugar for his rice.

Evidently, Roosevelt had already researched Philosophy. I went ahead and completed the Philosophy course, even though we would not be the founder of Taoism. I revolted to Hinduism and Pacificsm. Our army is costing us 6gpt because of the extra cost.

We completed the Colossus and an Aquaduct. We are currently researching Paper (due in 2 turns). We need to head for Education next, but we might want to take a 3 turn detour for Compass. The two tech leaders, Saladin and Roosevelt, don't seem to want to trade it, and it is required for Astronomy. Plus, a Harbor would be nice, not only for health, but for the extra trade route income.

Our next great person will be in 3 turns (2 if we hire another specialist for a turn). We have a 50% chance for a Great Scientist. The lightbulb on a GS should be Education (once we have learned Paper). Not sure how many beakers the GS would give us, but we may want to consider that option.Turn 131 (400 AD)
Berlin begins: The Colossus
I stay with Philosophy research. Roosevelt has already founded Taoism.

IBT:
Berlin grows: 14 and shaves a turn off of the Colossus.
Socrates (Great Scientist) born in Berlin

Turn 132 (425 AD)
Berlin finishes: Academy
We went from 118bpt to 162bpt and shaved a turn off of the Philosophy research.

IBT:
Saladin begins a Golden Age

Turn 133 (450 AD)

Turn 134 (475 AD)

IBT:
Tech learned: Philosophy
Berlin finishes: The Colossus

Turn 135 (500 AD)
Research begun: Paper
Berlin begins: Aqueduct for the overflow hammers

Convert to Hinduism (1 turn of Anarchy)
Napoleon and Alexander remain pleased with us, while Saladin moves up to pleased status. Roosevelt remains cautious.

Turn 136 (520 AD)
Now that we are out of anarchy, I revolt to Pacifism.

IBT:
Philadelphia gets a border expansion and we lose 2 more tiles to Roosevelt. One of the tiles was the spice plantation that our worker was building.

Turn 137 (540 AD)

Turn 138 (560 AD)
Berlin begins: Spearman

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Spearman

Roosevelt is now pleased with us, but ...
Alexander cancels the deal where he was giving us rice for free. After renegoiating, he agrees to sell us the rice in exchange for our sugar.

Turn 139 (580 AD)

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Aqueduct

Turn 140 (600 AD)
Berlin begins: Spearman feel free to override this.A couple of snapshots from the family album. The first is our little corner of the world.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_600AD_World.JPG
As Roosevelts borders push ours back, our little corner is getting smaller and smaller. :sad:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_600AD_Berlin.JPG

Roster Check:
Conroe - Just Played
Methos - UP
mike p - On Deck
sooooo
adamlan - Skipped

Got it. I'm up in my SGOTM1 game so I'll play this probably tomorrow or Tuesday.

Cool, we're going well. I'm glad we're in pacifism. IMHO, I think we should merge the scientist unless there's a chance we'll miss liberalism.

I drop one scientist temporarily to shave three turns off of growth. We’ll still get our great leader in the same amount of time. I also switch our build to a market for two reasons; one, we have plenty of military units, and their costing us gold-wise. Two, is we could benefit from the two merchant specialist it allows. I considered waiting on the market and putting research in the queue instead.

Roosevelt came calling wanting us to cancel agreements with Alex. I said no.

I merged the great scientist as IMO not merging our great leaders will seriously handicap our game. The best strategy I have found for OCC games is to merge all great leaders, rather than use them any other way. Granted, that doesn’t mean I follow that rule entirely. Shrug.

Desiring a look at our world map I do a little trading.
Roosevelt’s world map for 200 gold.
Hatty gives us her world map and 70 gold for ours.
Alex gives us 50 gold for our map.
Give Philo to Hatty for Theology, WM, and 30 gold.
Napoleon gives Compass, Construction, and 110 gold for Philo.
Saladin gives WM and 110 gold for Philo.

Research-wise went Paper>Compass>Education (4 turns left)

Sorry, but I kept horrible notes. I built a harbor for the additional health. Berlin is also now up to size 16. When Education is done we should switch off research and start work on a university and Oxford.

Astronomy needs Optics, so we should consider that if Astronomy is the tech we desire from Liberalism. IMO we should also consider Printing Press as the free tech.

Again, my apologies on my notes. I normally take much better notes than this.

Roster:
Conroe
Methos- Just Played
mike p- Up
sooooo- On Deck
adamlan- Skipped

Looking good, Methos!

Astronomy needs Optics, so we should consider that if Astronomy is the tech we desire from Liberalism. IMO we should also consider Printing Press as the free tech.I think we would see a much greater benefit from an Observatory rather than the extra commerce from Printing Press. Is Optics available via trade? Also, how close are Saladin or FDR to being able to research Liberalism?

800 BC When you set a city to build research, it's generally much more efficient to hire specialists than work mines. So I hired another scientist and a couple of merchants.

It never occurred to me until I noticed it here that the Bureaucracy bonus applies to commerce from tiles and trade routes, not gold or beakers created by specialists. Therefore, if you're running Bureaucracy without Representation, specialists are probably a waste of time.

I also saw that I could switch to a catapult for one turn and have it complete without pushing back research time, so I did. When in doubt for this game, building another unit is never a bad idea.

Our worker didn't have much to do so I had him farm the floodplains to the east. We can't work them, but the AI will probably stop to pillage the improvements and that could buy us crucial time.

840 BC Great Scientist is born and merged.

860 BC Saladin Founds Islam. At the time, he is the only other Civ with Paper, but by the end, there are several civs willing to trade for education, so he was probably spreading it around. Since he was researching Divine Right, we're definitely first to Education.

880 BC Switch back to production mode and start University.

920 BC Napoleon converts to Hinduism. Alex is the only Confucian and I start to think maybe we should turn on him.

940 BC Hatty demands that we break our deals with Alex. I review the trade screen and know that it will cost us 2 health, but I concede to her demand. We still have sugars free (+1 health w/Grocer soon enough)

Meanwhile, I notice that our trade to Washington of Gems for Silk is still active, so I renegotiate for 4 gpt and drop the silk.

980 BC University Done. Oxford in 7

1000 BC Liberalism in 1. I unclicked the tech research bar so is sooooo wants to try to knock off some prereqs for a better free tech you can. Personally, I'd think about grabbing Nationalism for its trade value - perhaps bribe the AI to fight each other. Saladin is friendly with us now, so we get no "Too Advanced" messages with any of his techs, but he is the leader, so maybe we should try to bring him down some. Gimping Alex might not be a bad idea, but there are still other people he hates more than us.

134526

Errr, quite an eventful turnset. I followed Mike's advice and made a rather large gamble which I hope you will be OK with Conroe.

IHT: MM oxford down to 5 turns. Set research to liberalism.

T1: Liberalism comes in, take Nationalism. Declare war on Alex :eek:.

Then do this:

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9805/saladinwarpy8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/8/hattywarsa0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Then wait a turn for Optics to become tradable. Research into Guilds.

T2: More messing around:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2559/rooseveltwarmh6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/1011/napoleonwaryp7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Diplomatic situation is complicated. We get a -1 from Hatty for bribing a war against her, but receive a +1 from herself (and Saladin and FDR) for the mutual military struggle bonus, and that will increase. Alex however is less pleased.

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/5950/diploww2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

T3: Get a great scientist in Berlin and merge him.

T5: Oxford completes, start a catapult.

T6: Guilds completes, start banking (not for a completely useless bank, but to chase the great merchant from economics). Catapult completes, start a grocer (for the health). Saladin circumnavigates.

T7: Trade for engineering.

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/6209/hattydealrm5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

T8: Napoleon wants help with his egyptian war. Say no. We find out why on the same turn: Hatty captures Lyons. This is actually really bad for us because Lyons had the fish, so our fish for corn deal with Napoleon is cancelled and we lose 2 health. We sell the corn to Hatty for 7 GPT, hoping to change it for fish when Lyons comes out of revolt.

T9: Banking -> Economics. Isabella demands Drama from us and I feel sorry for her so I agree. Grocer completes (+1 health from sugar), start a maceman.

T10: Not a lot happens. Economics is due in 3, though FDR now has education and may be chasing it too. Maybe I should have gone for PP, but I like merchants because they provide +1 food.

I didn't start the Taj because with 1 city a golden age is less hot. Plus I gave everyone Nationalism, so if someone has marble, is industrious or has a GE and wants it then we'd get beaten. It would have taken (and still does take) 11 turns after oxford finished at max production, so 16 turns after I gave away Nationalism. I'm pretty sure we won't get attacked by Alex, since he is at war with everyone in between us and him :lol:. Saladin is up Divine Right and Gunpowder on us. He was willing to trade GP for Edu all the way through my turnset, but I didn't want him any further ahead.

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/3633/berlin1100nw3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Roster:
Conroe- Up
Methos- On Deck
mike p
sooooo- Just Played
adamlan- MIA

I'm guessing since we haven't heard from adamlan that we're skipping him? Up to you Conroe.

Interesting diplomatic manuevering! :D

That's a great screen shot on the diplomacy screen. I just hope Saladin takes the war seriously and it slows him down some. Eventually we might need someone to eclipse him so we can sign a PA, when the time is right.

Printing Press isn't going to as much good as the bonus trade route from Economics. Merging the Great Merchant will just be gravy.

Wow! :eek: A lot has happened in the last couple of hours!

I'm guessing since we haven't heard from adamlan that we're skipping him? Up to you Conroe.Let's wait and give adamlan the standard 24 hours to post a got. If we haven't heard anything by then, then I will go ahead and take it.

Besides, I think I'm going to need the 24 hours just to figure out what happened! :lol: I'm not sure that I totally understand the turn of events here. I just need to think about it for a while before I start playing.

It makes sense cutting Alex loose once Napoleon went back to Hinduism. Alex founded Confucianism, so he would probably stick with that no matter what. It's doubtful that Alex would be able to get to us, with Sal and FDR as a buffer zone. And, of course, having the AI fight amongst themselves is usually a good thing, assuming it is not a phoney war.


@adamlan: You're up if you want it!

It looks like adamlan is still a no-show. I really hate the idea of booting somebody from the roster. Adamlan could be laid up in a hospital for all we know. But, it really isn't fair to the rest of the team. We should probably bring in a lurker as an alternate. I know Strauss indicated interest in this game before going out of town.

In the meantime, I will go ahead and play. Methos is on deck.

One city on Immortal difficulty -- and look who the tech leader is :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1100AD_Trades.JPG

Wow! Soooo really did a great job trading Nationalism around. :goodjob: Also, the arid climate and high sea level of the map is probably lending us a hand in keeping pace with the AI. Wish I could take credit for that, but I set them to random when I generated the map.

We probably need to start discussing our victory condition. When we started this game, I really didn't think we would be in this position, but apparently all of our options are still open. We could take a peaceful route and go after Computers and Fiber Optics to build a spaceship. Or, we could go after a PA with Saladin and go for a domination victory. Alex has the most land, currently, but he is not an option anymore. :lol: FDR would also be a good choice, but I think Saladin is slightly bigger.

Whatever direction we go, though, I think the next 10 turns are played the same. We have 3 turns to finish Economics, after that I will head us towards Astronomy to pick up an Observatory. Here are all the gory details:
Turn 170 (1100 AD)
I really hate to see an AI with a load of cash laying around like Saladin has. In this situtation, though, it is probably no big deal. I decide to see if he would share some of it, but he felt that I was pressing too hard.

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Maceman

Turn 171 (1110 AD)
Berlin begins: Maceman

Turn 172 (1120 AD)
Berlin begins: Explorer I want to check out the front lines of the war and find out if the AI are really fighting each other or not.

IBT:
Tech learned: Economics We are the 1st to reach it, of course.
Zhang Qian (Great Merchant) born in Berlin
Berlin finishes: Explorer

Turn 173 (1130 AD)
Research begun: Astronomy

Our Great Merchant is offering 1000 beakers (~2 turns) towards Constitution. My guess is one of the AI will research this for us soon enough. Instead I merge him for the 1 food and 6 gold. Our city is now growing again, albeit slowly.

I revolt to Free Market for the extra trade route income.

Turn 174 (1140 AD)
Our Explorer sees some troops of FDR's on the move. Unfortunately, they all seem to be heading the wrong way! :eek:

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Maceman

Turn 175 (1150 AD)
Berlin begins: Bank with the GM merged, the extra gold will allow us to run Pacifism a lot longer and still build troops -- all the while keeping the research slider at 100%.

IBT:
Aretas III (Great Merchant) born in Berlin another one! :lol: 2 of them would have given us Constitution for free! Oh well, merging was the still right thing to do.

Turn 176 (1160 AD)
I spend our cash to upgrade our most experienced (6/10) Axeman to a Maceman. I send him, along with another mace and a spear towards the front lines. If we can get him promoted to level 4, we will be able to build the Heroic Epic.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1160AD_Peace.JPG

Hatty and Napoleon make peace. Since they are both Hindu, it really isn't surprising. I decide to sell Paper to Hatty for all of her gold.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1160AD_HattyTrade.JPG

Meanwhile, Saladin is at least sending some troops towards Greece. Our Explorer meets up with 2 Catapults being escorted by Camel Archers.

Turn 177 (1170 AD)
Another peace treaty by Hatty, this time with Alexander.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1170AD_Peace.JPG

It looks like there is some fighting going on at Heliopolis. Unfortunately, it looks like all they've done so far is succeed in promoting Alex's longbows. :sad: Notice the 89% defense bonus in this city (on a hill!) and FDR's wounded Crossbow leaving the fight. Saladin has 1 Catapult in the forest and 2 more under our Explorer.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1170AD_Heliopolis.JPG

Turn 178 (1180 AD)
Do a deal with FDR:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1180AD_FDRTrade.JPG

Tech learned: Gunpowder and we then discover that Saladin has Chemistry and can build Grenadiers.

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Bank

Turn 179 (1190 AD)
Berlin begins: Musketman

IBT:
While defending, Explorer loses to: Greek Phalanx (3.10/5) at 35.7 percent.
Yes, we lose our Explorer. :sad: But, Heliopolis falls to Saladin!

Turn 180 (1200 AD)Ok, 10 turns played. We have 1 turn remaining on Astronomy and 1 turn remaining on our first musket. I pre-chopped the NW forest (we have 3 and only 2 are giving us health) to help the Observatory along.

Two Macemen and a Spearman have just crossed the border into Egypt from America. They are heading towards the front lines to see if we can get a unit promoted to level 4 for the Heroic Epic.

All of our options on victory condition are still open. But, we probably need to decide soonish. If we decide we want a PA, Saladin has Military Tradition available for trade. Although, if this war goes on long enough, we would not need a DP in order to sign a PA. Whether we go the PA route or the Internet route, we probably ought to think about Scientific Method next. Of course, this would obsolete the Great Library.

Below is an updated trade screen. FDR has passed us as tech leader, with us and Saladin nipping at his heals. Saladin is definitely taking this war seriously, but Roosevelt seems to be making only a token appearance. Most of Roosevelt's troops look to be horded up in his cities. My guess is he is fighting cultural pressure to prevent his cities from flipping.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1200AD_Trades.JPG

And lastly, a couple of screenshots for the lurkers. One of the world map and another of our fair city ...

134673134674

Roster Check:
Conroe - Just Played
Methos - UP
mike p - On Deck
sooooo
adamlan - MIA


In case we don't hear from adamlan, are there any lurkers interested in an alternate slot?

Scientific Method will obsolete our great library and monastery, but if we get to physics first one of those scientists will be replaced. But I don't think Saladin or FDR will be researching Sci Meth yet - he will probably be going for printing press, rep parts and rifling. Come to think of it, we need PP for Sci Meth, right? Maybe we can research Corporation next (+1 trade route) and trade it for PP and chemistry. Someone is bound to get PP soon as most AIs beeline to rifles. Saladin has unusually got chemistry before rifles, but this is probably thanks to a GP. FDR prob got chemistry in a trade. When astro comes in we will obviously build an observatory. The question is: will be trade away astro yet. I'm favouring not doing so. We can only get a fair deal for MT, and MT is fairly useless except for the defensive pact. Lets wait for a better trade and preserve our monopoly. Longer term biology and medicine (environmentalism) are needed to support many more specialists.

Come to think of it, we need PP for Sci Meth, right? Maybe we can research Corporation next (+1 trade route)Good point. I forgot that SciMeth requires Printing Press. But, Corporation requires Constitution. And if we are going to research Constitution, we may want to go ahead and research Democracy for the Statue of Liberty. Corporation, after all, isn't going anywhere. I'm not sure, though, if that detour is really worth it for 1 specialist.


We sell the corn to Hatty for 7 GPT, hoping to change it for fish when Lyons comes out of revolt.Oh, I forgot to mention this in my report. Lyons needs a border expansion before it picks up the fish. So, this deal will still need to be renegotiated next set.

Got it....

Turn 180 (1200 AD)
Methos: Everything looks good.
Tech learned: Astronomy
Berlin finishes: Musketman

IBT:

Turn 181 (1210 AD)
Research begun: Printing Press
Methos: I got the impression from Conroe's post that the preferred route was SciMeth, so I went with PP.
Research begun: Scientific Method
Berlin begins: Observatory
Methos: The observatory will be complete in four turns. By the time our worker gets there it'll have three turns left, so I'm considering leaving the pre-chop for something else.

IBT:

Turn 182 (1220 AD)
Methos: Decided to go with the chop afterall. It brings it down to one turn until completion.
Berlin finishes: Observatory

IBT:

Turn 183 (1230 AD)
Berlin begins: Musketman
Methos: I consider building the Hermitage for the additional culture, but decide against it. I'll discuss later my reasons for why I contemplated this.
Methos: The worker starts building a cottage on the now chopped grass tile. Might as well do something with it.
Berlin's borders expand
Methos: Not for sure if it was worth it, but figured Hatty would get it anyway, so I made this trade:

134822

Tech learned: Divine Right

IBT:

Turn 184 (1240 AD)
Methos: Our troops get close enough to see Saladin's forces (2 camel archers, 2 cats, and a crossbowman) sitting outside Sparta. They must have just arrived as they are unhurt.
Tech learned: Printing Press
Berlin finishes: Musketman

IBT:

Turn 185 (1250 AD)
Berlin begins: Galleon
Methos: I decide to go with a galleon to knock back some of the fog. There's still way too much unknown out there IMO.
Methos: Notice that Lyons has had its border expand, but we can't trade for the fish. Looking around I notice this is Hatty's only fish resource. Am I missing something?

IBT:

Turn 186 (1260 AD)
Methos: Roosevelt has made peace with Alex.
Methos: Not for sure why, but Saladin's troops have moved around Sparta. They're still adjacent, just now in the southern tile. I hope he isn't leaving.
Berlin grows: 18
Berlin finishes: Galleon

IBT:
While defending, Maceman defeats (2.40/8): Greek Catapult at 99.1 percent.

Turn 187 (1270 AD)
Berlin begins: Hindu Missionary
Methos: Before SciMeth comes in I decide to build a few Hindu missionaries. I'm thinking we can use them as spies. Drop them into a few cities we prefer to watch for LoS.
Methos: The SS Conroe heads west to explore. I'm curious, has anyone noticed whether one of the AI's has circumnavigated the globe yet?
Spearman promoted: Combat I
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Methos: Well that sucked. Sparta attacked our stack with a cat. Though we whipped it, our stack took some collateral. The unit we want to get to level 4 took a lot of damage. Moved our troops onto Saladin's tile for protection. Hope he sticks around.
Berlin finishes: Hindu Missionary
Alhazen (Scientist) (Great Scientist) born in Berlin

IBT:

Turn 188 (1280 AD)
Berlin begins: Hindu Missionary
Methos: Since we're overproducing hammers for our missionaries, I do a little MM'ing. I lessen our hammer production and hire another merchant.
Methos:
Methos: Saladin took off, so I decide to move our troops to Nap's lands to heal. It's two tiles away from Sparta, and IMHO we shouldn't be attacking a city with these troops anyway.
Berlin finishes: Hindu Missionary

IBT:

Turn 189 (1290 AD)
Berlin begins: Hindu Missionary
Methos: Since Berlin is now building the last Hindu missionary I MM so that we get more excess hammers. In other words, I drop the 2nd merchant and adjust some tiles.
Berlin finishes: Hindu Missionary

IBT:

Turn 190 (1300 AD)
Berlin begins: Musketman
Methos: Napoleon comes calling with this:

134823

Methos: Since our relations our better with Hatty than Napoleon (plus we have resources with her), I decline as request.


Notes:
Scientific Method will be complete in one turn, so if we wish to change it now would be the perfect time.
Next I’m thinking we should research Replaceable Parts for the lumber mills. It’d be nice to be able to use those two forested tiles more.
I’m not sure if anyone has circumnavigated the globe yet, so I have started the SS Conroe to do just that. The SS Conroe needs to continue west towards Berlin.

Roster:
Conroe
Methos- Just Played
Mike p- Up
Soooo- On Deck
adamlan- MIA

I’m not sure if anyone has circumnavigated the globe yet, so I have started the SS Conroe to do just that.

Nice thinking, but Saladin circumnavigated in my turns. I think I reported it, but maybe not. We do need some navy though. Shame frigates require iron.

soz i been on my hols i didnt hav time 2 post dat i woz goin away im so sorry im leavin on tuesday again so u might want me to play a turnset wenever itz my go

I finished Scientific Method, and Physics. The Great Scientist nearly replaces the free specialists from the Great Library, and now we can trade Sci Meth and Physics around.

There's a bunch of cavalry running around Greece. We probably should start moving towards Rifling. Physics came in on my last turn, so we can start whatever.

1300AD I decide to go for Physics, so Berlin is reconfigured for Science. I stop working the mines and hire some researchers.

1320 AD Roosevelt revolts to Free Speech, Free Market, Free Religion and Representation. Napoleon also has Constitution now.

1330 AD Alex offers us peace. All he asks for in return is Philosophy. What a jerk.

1360 AD Musketmen won't cut it with all the grenadiers and cavalry running around. I trade Astronomy and 380 gold to Saladin for Chemistry.

1400AD I get another XP for our Macemen. Someday we might even get the Herioc Epic started. We also get the Great Scientist from Physics. Should probably be merged, but I'll leave that up to you.

sooooo, you've got several trading options. My favorite might be Music and Divine Right to Napoleon for 130 gold and war with FDR. Not sure we want that relationship hit with our nearest neighbor though.

We might want to consider the Hermitage, especially since FDR went to Free Speech. I'd like to get those horses some day.

I'm curious, where did you send the three Hindu missionaries?

I wandered around Arabia for a little bit, but I really wasn't sure what to do with them.

OK, I'll play this afternoon. Unless anyone objects, I'm going to research biology and farm over that new cottage.

I suggest holding off for a bit sooooo, as we need to figure out what type of victory we're heading for.

Will do. The simplest victory would probably be a disruptive space race. A PA with Saladin looks impossible because he is by far the most powerful. I guess that leaves Hatty. I notice she is willing to go to war with Alexander again for liberalism, which will rack up more mutual struggle bonus. I'm pretty sure she'll agree to a PA when we get communism, if we want it. I also like mike's idea of bribing Napoleon to attack Roosevelt.

If we are going for a spaceship victory, do we really need a PA? If that is the victory condition that we want, then I think we should beeline for Computers (Laboratory) and then head straight for the Internet. I can see the advantage of Biology first and I am fine if we want to go ahead and grab it.

If we really want to do a PA, though, would it be wise to bribe someone to attack Saladin? If we could get his troops levels whittled down to where he is not the power leader, we could do a PA with him.

We might want to consider the Hermitage, especially since FDR went to Free Speech. I'd like to get those horses some day.I'd rather see us build some troops rather than the Hermitage. I think the best way to grab those horses is to raze a city. But, FDR has a ton of troops in those cities (at least as of my turns). I assume the troops are fighting cultural pressure. I think we should be building Macemen, promote them to City Raider, and then upgrade them to Grenadiers.



soz i been on my hols i didnt hav time 2 post dat i woz goin away im so sorry im leavin on tuesday again so u might want me to play a turnset wenever itz my goGlad to have you back, adamlan! You say you are leaving again on Tuesday? When do you expect to be back?

Well exactly. This is why I lobbied to leave PAs turned off. The other AIs will probably PA up and we'll have to fight monster pairs of civs. If we don't PA then we have to fight 2 armys at once. If we do PA we're stuck with a AI partner who will undoubtedly screw things up like try to build the space elevator in an iceball city. EDIT: I guess we could go for domination. That might be fun.

I'll play tomorrow and see what Mike and Methos say.

I'd think twice about farming over the cottage. Once we have Biology, we'll be at +7 food (though still at -4 health) with our current configuration. That's enough food to work every tile and have two left over for surplus.

A farm with biology will give enough food for one more specialist. Except that we are in unhealthiness so until that's fixed we effectively need three food for a new specialist.

A mature cottage will provide up to +8 commerce. That will also get modified by the bureacracy bonus to +12, which is twice as good as a merchant or scientist specialist. Since the cottage is west of Berlin, it's unlikely to get pillaged. So I think the cottage is better than a farm.

Our problem right now isn't food, it's unhealthiness. And that's only going to get worse when we add in factories and power plants. I think the cottage is a better move from the unhealthiness standpoint as well, because we can a better result from one pop point working the cottage than we will from two working the farm and hiring a specialist. The three farms we have already should be enough.

Also, I forgot to add that we have uranium to the south east, within our cultural borders. I sent the worker to start hooking it up.

I'd also advise against signing a PA right away. My understanding is that science costs get doubled, and we won't be bringing nearly as many beakers to the show as our partner, so the longer we wait to sign the PA, the less of a drag we'll be on their science - if that makes sense.

Actually, after reading Mike's comments, I'm left wondering if 3 food is worth the turns to research Biology. I'm thinking maybe we should start towards Computers and just try and trade for Biology along the way.

A mature cottage will provide up to +8 commerce. That will also get modified by the bureacracy bonus to +12, which is twice as good as a merchant or scientist specialist.A minor correction, I think. You have to give up Bureaucracy to get that last +2 commerce from a town (Free Speech, IIRC). I think a mature river cottage will give us +6 commerce or +9 after the Bureaucracy bonus. Still better than a single specialist, though; which I believe was the point you were making.


Also, I forgot to add that we have uranium to the south east, within our cultural borders.What about oil? If somebody mentioned it in their report, then I missed it.

i get bak on saturday

OK. As I see it there are 2 options we can take in this game. 1st option is head towards Computers for the laboratory. 2nd option is head towards artillery and pound someone before they get infantry. But ... before we decide on either of those two options we need to get some techs to improve our production. Our health problems means we lack food to work our mines. I choose to research replacable parts because Saladin won't give a fair trade for it (his monopoly tech). I think that if I get RP then I can trade Sci Meth to Saladin for Rifling plus or minus some gold. Then we could get Artillery (we already have Physics) and go and beat him up. By the way, we have no oil, so Arti is our only chance of getting a decent attacking unit before our opponents get enough of its corresponding defensive unit. RP is needed for the space win anyway, and our production could really do with a hand from those lumbermills. Not sure an absolute beeline to computers is so amazing. Those are some very expensive techs on the way, none of which gets us much. A lab will give us 25-30 beakers, but also -1 health, so in reality 16-21 beakers because we loose a scientist. Lab is important, but I think we can get some other techs first to improve our long term production and research. Health is key.

I don't think we need to go up the top branch. Don't think all that research is warranted just for the Statue and 1 specialist. I'd much rather get biology earlier and hire my own specialist. We don't care about emancipation or universal suffrage. Eventually I'd like to trade for Constitution (leads to corporation) but that can wait until the tech becomes cheaper.

IHT: I merge our great scientist from Physics. I bribe Napoleon to attack FDR for Music and Divine Right. He throws in 130 gold to the deal.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6474/napbribewc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

T1: Grenadier -> Grenadier. I beg 350 gold from FDR, and use the money to upgrade 2 axes to grenadiers. Soon our power will be higher than Alex's.

T2: FDR asks us to cancel deals with the french. No sir.

T3: We get a great scientist. I merge him. Scientists are good, but I'd like a few engineers too. Argos (greek) is captured by the Arabians. So far Saladin has captured 2 greek cities, both are useless to him because they are swamped by foreign culture. More maintainence for him!

T4: RP comes in. We can't trade Sci Meth for Rifling, even though they are the same beakers and we have over 1000 gold in the bank. Probably because it's a monopoly tech for Saladin. I wait a while. I set research on Biology for the production. No point researching rifling/artillery if we can only build one in 4 turns, or have to sack our scientists. Lets get ourselves able to work all those mines we built. Grenadier -> Grenadier.

T5: I notice Isabella is no one's worst enemy (must be all those wars that started :mischief:). So I sell her Philosophy for 200 gold. I stop our worker mining the uranium and send him to lumbermill. Remember the uranium mine only has 3 turns to go.

T6: Parthian captured by the French. I'm not sure who owned this before. Napoleon is only at war with FDR, so it is probably his city.

T7: I somehow get both our missionaries killed on the same turn. Oh well. FDR fights back against Napoleon and captures Chatres.

T8: Grenadier -> Work Boat (for the other clams). Hatty builds Versailles. I notice she's trading her fish now, so I get it off her for copper (Rather she builds Statue than Saladin). +2 health baby! Hire another scientist in celebration.

T9: Our shock mace on a hill is attacked by a greek crossbowman and wins. Up to 9 XP. Saladin builds the Taj and starts a golden age. FDR has rifling! He won't trade it yet, but maybe since Saladin no longer has a monopoly he'll trade it for Sci Meth (also a monopoly tech goddamn it) ... What a meany. He aint trading nuffin. Work boat-> Grenadier.

T10: Nothing. Oh, I renegotiate our gems to Napoleon deal to get an extra 1 GPT. Cool!

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/8246/berlin1500hl7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So, biology is 2 turns away. Once we get that we can work some mines and keep our specialists. At the same time! One day we'll be able to trade for rifling and get artillery. We still have our monopoly on Sci Meth.

One thing we should consider is Athens:

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4064/athensxk7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Saladin has many cavs in the area and there aren't many defenders left in the city. Our 3 troops are 1 tile outside Athens, but are only macemen. I think it would be really bad if Saladin captures the city, because it will allow his 2 other ex-greek cities to function. And of course he will have a capital city. So I we should consider breaking our Sci Meth monopoly for getting Saladin to agree peace with the Greeks. He will throw in Constitution to this deal, so it might be a good one to do. He has 2 cavs (1 injured), 2 cats and 1 grenadier, so cannot capture next turn, so we have at least 1 turn to decide.

I think we should get both artillery and medicine before we head towards computers. Mmm ... environmentalism! The ultimate civic right now. Hospital and Red Cross are pretty awesome too. Red crossed artillery every turn. Sounds great.

I bribe Napoleon to attack FDR for Music and Divine Right.
I beg 350 gold from FDR, This just strikes me as too funny. :lol: We get Napoleon to attack FDR and he is still willing to give us a free handout afterwards!



Roster Check:
Conroe - On Deck
Methos
mike p
sooooo - Just Played
adamlan - UP

It's Tuesday, so adamlan has probably already left town and won't be back until Saturday. I've got it and will most likely play it tonight. Methos is on deck.



Does everyone agree with the course that sooooo has laid out? It sounds pretty good to me. Although, I'm wondering if we should just ask Saladin to attack a different city rather than making peace.

That's a good idea. Asking him to attack another city keeps him on a war footing and won't cost us a tech.

It works for me.

I found the power graph to be quite interesting. Isabella has built herself an army after her early war with Alexander. And look at what Saladin was able to accomplish after kicking off his golden age!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1500AD_Power.JPG

Turn 210 (1500 AD)

I notice that we are selling our only spice resource to FDR for 5gpt. I cancel this deal since spices give an extra health with a Grocer.

I then dial up Saladin and ask him to attack Thermopylae. If he goes ahead and attacks Athens, then I will do the peace trade that sooooo suggested.

IBT:
FDR captures Paris.

Turn 211 (1505 AD)
Our 9xp Shock Maceman has 0.4 health and needs 19 turns to heal! It looks like we won't be building the Heroic Epic anytime soon. :sad: We are in bad need of a Medic. Meanwhile, it looks like Saladin suicided his Catapult into Athens. He has only 2 healthy Cavalry that could attack next turn, so I ask again for him to attack Thermopylae.

IBT:
Tech learned: Biology
Berlin finishes: Grenadier

Turn 212 (1510 AD)
Soooo suggested either Artillery or Medicine should be researched next. Artillery requires us to research both Rifling and Steel first. However, with the extra food from the farms, Medicine is no longer as important as it was.
Research begun: Rifling
Berlin begins: Catapult

Saladin continues to attack Athens, while at the same time sending forces in the direction of Thermopylae. Saladin is down to a single healthy Cavalry and does not have the forces on hand to take the city. It will need to be monitored, though.

Roosevelt has a couple of Galleons loaded with troops sailing through our waters headed towards France. It looks like Napoleon may be getting whooped in this war. Feeling sorry for Napoleon, I offer to trade him Chemistry for Constitution. The greedy SOB thinks I should throw in Education and Printing Press, as well! :shake:

IBT:
Saladin and Alexander sign a peace treaty!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/FTS-02_1510AD_Peace.JPG

Berlin finishes: Catapult

Turn 213 (1515 AD)
Berlin begins: Catapult
The spare clams are hooked up and I sell them to FDR for 5gpt.

IBT:
FDR captures Marseilles.

Turn 214 (1520 AD)

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Catapult
While defending, Maceman loses to: Greek Crossbowman (2.76/6) at 25.1 percent.
Don't worry, that wasn't our 9xp Shock Maceman. But, since his cover has been blown, it is time to get him out of harm's way. I have a Grenadier in our Galleon heading his way for reinforcements.

Turn 215 (1525 AD)
Berlin begins: Grenadier

IBT:
Tech learned: Rifling

Turn 216 (1530 AD)
Research begun: Steel
Saladin already has Steel, and frankly I would love to take it off of his hands. Unfortunately, neither Saladin nor Roosevelt seem interested in Scientific Method.

IBT:
Berlin finishes: Grenadier

Turn 217 (1535 AD)
Berlin begins: Grenadier

Napoleon is taking a thrashing at the hands of Roosevelt. I decide to buy Constitution from him in exchange for Chemistry and Liberalism. The deal moves Napoleon to friendly status, but drops FDR to cautious as we have traded with his worst enemy. In hindsight, it may not have been a wise move on my part. However, if FDR does declare on us, his Riflemen will be facing our Grenadiers.
Tech learned: Constitution

IBT:
Roosevelt is the first to discover Democracy and switch to Universal Suffrage and Emancipation. Meanwhile, Saladin researches Scientific Method thus ending our monopoly.
Sinan (Great Engineer) born in Berlin The lightbulb will give us 1000 beakers (20%) towards Steam Power. He should probably be merged, but I will put him to sleep until we decide what to do with him.

Turn 218 (1540 AD)
I am trying to shop Scientific Method around, but none of the AI's seem to think it is that valuable. You'd think I was offering them Archery in exchange for Rifling. :crazyeye: But, I would really like to pick up the extra trade route from Corporation, so I decide to do a deal with Hatty. We pick up Corporation and some gold in exchange f