OK, I've missed the forums for a few days, so I have some catching up to do with reading on the old posts, but I do have some news to share about Civ4 that is hopefully useful to you all.

1. Kernel panics

Looks like these will happen with *any* version of 10.4.7, and mainly on Intel Macs with ATI cards (iMacs and MacBook Pros). This is actually a driver regression and happens with some other apps (World of Warcraft is also affected) and we're working with Apple on a solution. In the meantime, as some of you have discovered, there are two categories of solutions. One is to downgrade to 10.4.6. The other is to turn off multisampling or run Civ4 in a window.

2. Bad performance

We've isolated a major performance problem that affects some, but not all, Macs. If you are seeing very high CPU usage on dual-CPU Macs (like 180%) or it's super-choppy on single-CPU Macs, then you are encountering this specific bug. We've got a fix in testing for this now.

3. Sound problems

We've been able to reproduce these here with great consistency. As some of you may have noticed, downgrading to a different version of OSX is not necessarily a solution for this, so we don't have a short-term fix. However, our sound programmer has been working on a fix for this one.

I'm really sorry about all this. It's been an unusually rough launch for us, but we hope to have a patch out very soon that addresses 2 of these 3 issues (the kernel panics being the exception).

Brad,
Regarding Problem 2; do you still think the "performance problem" on single-core units is related to audio changes by Apple, and if so is that going to be addressed by your sound engineer as well in the patch?

Brad,
Regarding Problem 2; do you still think the "performance problem" on single-core units is related to audio changes by Apple, and if so is that going to be addressed by your sound engineer as well in the patch?

No, at least not that we've seen. In a few other apps, it's definitely the case that OpenAL and 10.4.7 caused massive performance problems, but when we dug deeper, the problem for Civ4 turned out to be elsewhere, at least in the cases we've seen to date.

If you can fix 2 and 3 soon, then the game will be much, much more playable.

I'm no programmer, but can you explain at all how the sound could be so messed up? I mean... seems like a simple IF THEN type command... IF this happens, then play this .wav. I know it's more complicated than that... but I am very curious.

I'm no programmer, but can you explain at all how the sound could be so messed up? I mean... seems like a simple IF THEN type command... IF this happens, then play this .wav. I know it's more complicated than that... but I am very curious.

With the caveat that I have not worked on the sound code in Civ4, my understanding is that there are a few issues. One is that OpenAL/CoreAudio are problematic on anything less than 10.4.7, so sometimes sound triggers are not firing. The second is that the game is apparently running out of sound buffers extremely quickly and thus thinks there are no more slots in which to play new sounds. I'm paraphrasing, but this is what I've heard from the sound programmer. I'll be personally taking a look into it later this afternoon as well.

Hmm. Will Apple have to release 10.4.7b (current version is 10.4.7a) in order to fix the kernel panic issue?

Gatekeeper

Hmm. Will Apple have to release 10.4.7b (current version is 10.4.7a) in order to fix the kernel panic issue?

I did hear that a future software update would be the solution. Whether that is 10.4.8 or some intermediate update, I do not know. When I do, I'll post here if I can.

Well, I prefer to play in the windows mode anyway, since I multi-task when I'm on the computer, so it likely won't be a terribly big issue for me. Still, kernel panics are scary (no pun intended) things, IMO. Speaking, of course, as a person who's going to have his first OS X experience w/i the next few days.

Gatekeeper

P.S. It's good to see you pop up in the forums, Brad. Your presence, along with others from Aspyr, is a good way to keep the public informed of progress in developing a patch for Civ IV.

Thanks Brad, looks like my 2 PPC machines may get a boost sometime soon! Any idea why it is crashing? Yes, I know I am under spec, but it seems to be happening to many others above minimum spec.

So far I am thrilled with the game (choppy as it is on my below spec machine). Boost performance and get more of the sounds working and most of the complaints will go away.

Any chance we can get a "snap to" rather than scroll to camera move option? It would make the game seem so much faster.

And a super duper low low low rendering path (crayons? braille?) for us low/min spec folks. Now I am dreaming!

Thanks Brad, looks like my 2 PPC machines may get a boost sometime soon! Any idea why it is crashing?

When you say crashing, are you referring to the kernel panics on Intel or something else? I haven't seen much in the way of actual crash reports, just the kernel panics. Of course, they may be getting lost in the noise of the larger issues.

And a super duper low low low rendering path (crayons? braille?) for us low/min spec folks. Now I am dreaming!

Let's see what the patch brings. It is my expectation that it will address most of the reported performance issues on PPC Macs.

Hi Brad,
Thanks for your update (and work). I wanted to alert you a post of mine, where I describe my experience. Maybe it can add to your data set.
my machine: iMac G5 1.8GHz 1gig RAM GeForce5200 10.4.7

Having fun, with only a few problems.

nauticus:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4253283#post4253283

PS, even though Im not in it for the graphics, I wouldnt complain if I was able to handle more. :)

When you say crashing, are you referring to the kernel panics on Intel or something else? I haven't seen much in the way of actual crash reports, just the kernel panics. Of course, they may be getting lost in the noise of the larger issues.
I sent at least one Crash Report (i.e. not Kernel Panic) off to Aspyr Support. There are at least two in my log files. The response I got mumbled something like "We know about this" and "hooks left by drivers".

I've had both ordinary crashes and kernel panics. Even had a kernel panic last night playing in windowed mode with no scouts to be seen.

Just wanted to throw my configuration into the mix, since I haven't had too many problems except the sound issue and some choppy graphics.

My Machine: Mirror Drive Door Dual 1.25 Ghz G4, 2GB Ram, ATI Radeon 9600 Pro (256MB VRAM), 10.4.6

It's funny but I got the graphics card so Warcraft would look better, but then dropped that game as soon as Civ IV came out ;) . Anyway, the things that I have noticed are:

1. The choppy sound issue. Seems to be pretty consistent with any setup I use.
2. Graphic issues - Mainly, when my units fight other units, there's no animation. There's a little bit, but seems to be random. Then, when my turn is over and the other civs move, the movement is choppy. The only other things is at one point playing far into a game, all my units turned into black silhouettes. When I loaded that same game back up later the units were normal, but it was pretty strange.

As far as overall gameplay, it's not too bad. I've been pretty happy with the performance on my machine. I'd also like to thank Brad for having a presence in the forums and helping us out. I remember back to when I was playing Civ III and Brad was always in here, helping us out.

So, thanks in advance as usual Brad for all the help you provide.

I've had both ordinary crashes and kernel panics. Even had a kernel panic last night playing in windowed mode with no scouts to be seen.

Yeah, it's not limited to scouts. Do you have multisampling turned off? Having it on definitely exacerbates the problem.

Yeah, it's not limited to scouts. Do you have multisampling turned off? Having it on definitely exacerbates the problem.
No - it was set at 2x when that happened. I'll probably turn it right off now. (To be honest I haven't been aware of much difference in how it all looks with multisampling - but, hey, everyone uses premium petrol if they can get it don't they?)

Glad to hear the multisampling and sound issues are being taken care of. With my intel dual core imac, other than those issues, i am having a great time. well, ok, at later game stages on large maps, even a latest-greatest system from apple with 1.5 GB of RAM can see some graphics-related slowdowns. but it is still playable, though the sound fixes would be great to have.

having a developer from the project at this forum is also a very good thing.

Brad, to echo the other comments: thank you so very much for keeping us informed!!!:goodjob: It makes all of this so much easier to handle. Having said that, you might want to throw a ball of paper at whomever is responsible for the Support section of the Aspyr site. Based on the deafening silence, one would assume that either there are no issues or that Aspyr is turning a deaf ear to complaints. Neither of course is true.

I look forward to the patch. Thanks.

BTW: I'm on an iMac G5 1.8 GHz/512/GeForce 5200 64MB/OS 10.3.9
Major issues: no sound, choppy/slow graphics and turns, painfully slow panning from unit to unit during moves (I second the "snap to unit" suggestion from enkiduMT). However no crashes or panics.

Is there any other info that we could provide that would be helpful?

Brad, to echo the other comments: thank you so very much for keeping us informed!!!:goodjob: It makes all of this so much easier to handle. Having said that, you might want to throw a ball of paper at whomever is responsible for the Support section of the Aspyr site. Based on the deafening silence, one would assume that either there are no issues or that Aspyr is turning a deaf ear to complaints. Neither of course is true.

We've been in talks about putting something on the support section. The problem is that we're just now getting correct info. That is, before we thought 10.4.6 was a good cure, but it turns out it wasn't the entire solution. Then we thought the 10.4.7 "a" update would eliminate the kernel panics, but that ended up not being totally accurate (it helps a bit, but they still happen). I believe shortly we'll have some info on the support site for Civ4.

Hi, thought I'd post what I'm seeing.

In addition to sound problems (mostly no unit sounds... background sounds are intermittent, city sounds work when close), I'm also having mouse issues. Mainly, the scroll will stop working. Additionally, and more importantly, at the same time, the rollover popups stop working. Fairly important when I'm trying to figure out what to build. btw, I'm using a logitech laser desktop s530, current drivers, at least as of 2 weeks ago.

Also, when I zoom out to globe view, instead of geography (for the explored area) I'm seeing a low res picture of a leader, usually Caesar. Is that normal??

And occasionally, after a certain amount of play, my units become dark shaded. Not a gameplay problem, more of a graphics problem.

And finally, general stability seems ok, doesn't seem that slow. Then again it shouldn't be, since I have a fast mac. 17" 2.16 mbp. I've tried with options generally set to the default, which is low. Which begs the question, if a $2800 computer can only run this game at low settings, wtf kind of computer is needed to run it at high???

Additionally, and more importantly, at the same time, the rollover popups stop working...

Which begs the question, if a $2800 computer can only run this game at low settings, wtf kind of computer is needed to run it at high???
I have noticed something like what you mention. The popup in the lower left will get stuck on some unit other than the one that is currently highlighted. Furthermore, the game behaves like your unit is the one described in the popup. For example, the popup will imply a worker unit but will have a military unit selected; it won't allow me to attack with the military unit until I click on it again or otherwise unstick the game. This seems to be a problem with the automatic rolling to the next unit that the game does. (I've also seen some incredible time to build estimates in these broken popups.)

I have a 15" MBP and have experimented with the settings, you should be able to play the game with everything at max except antialiasing multisamples with no problems. The only reason not to use the AAMS is kernel panics; that should eventually be fixed by a software update. Alternatively use a window to minimise kernel panics.

Brad, could you please comment on the Geforce 5200 and it being able to run Civ IV (64mb, standard iMac G5 card) well, even if a patch is put in place?? Thanks for all your info so far :goodjob:

And finally, general stability seems ok, doesn't seem that slow. Then again it shouldn't be, since I have a fast mac. 17" 2.16 mbp. I've tried with options generally set to the default, which is low. Which begs the question, if a $2800 computer can only run this game at low settings, wtf kind of computer is needed to run it at high???

I think the Intel MacBook Pros (and Intel iMacs) should be able to run it with the settings turned fairly high (with the current exception of multisampling - since that causes kernel panics). Have you tried this?

Brad, could you please comment on the Geforce 5200 and it being able to run Civ IV (64mb, standard iMac G5 card) well, even if a patch is put in place?? Thanks for all your info so far :goodjob:

Our QA guys are running a build with the performance fixes today, so I don't yet have info on this. However, my expectation is that it should be playable, albeit somewhat pokey. The 5200 is a pretty bad card for what Civ4 needs, so it's hard to tell if you're currently seeing what I would term as "normal" performance for that card or if you were affected by the performance bug that we're fixing.

I have now done a little game just for testing.
Therfor I have pushed all options to the max. limit as I wanted to provoke the system. ;)
What shall I say: No problems !!!! (Beside the missing sound effects)

I have played till 2800 bc. and the units run smooth and limble over the map. Speed was Okay and I love this little effect when the warrior comes to the coast and a little crab beckon to him. So all I need now is sound. It is a little bit like acting in a grave without it ;)

Edit: Okay - thats a impression after the first 30 minutes ...

Edit 2: My Mac http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2728726&postcount=22

I think the Intel MacBook Pros (and Intel iMacs) should be able to run it with the settings turned fairly high (with the current exception of multisampling - since that causes kernel panics). Have you tried this?


lol, I'm afraid to. I have tried turning on animations and unit details. I like playing large/huge maps and I'm worried about slowdowns late in the game. Also, coming from civ3 and civ2, I think the graphics aren't all that bad at low. But I'll try it cranked up :D

Other than the glitches, my biggest problem is getting used to the new interface. Personally, I'd rather have text instead of icons for build options (especially when my rollovers conk out). Oh, and the AI seems a bit tougher. At least the barbarians do. I'm losing cities and units all the time to them. Big change from civ3.

And Brad, thanks for all the work. Considering that the Windows release of Civ4 wasn't problem-free, it can't be easy. I'm just thrilled to have a current, native game that shows off the power of my new comp. When Heroes5 comes out I'll be one happy camper. Civ4 and Heroes5 native on my mac... my pc-gamer envy will be gone for at least a year :D

The 5200 is a pretty bad card for what Civ4 needs, so it's hard to tell if you're currently seeing what I would term as "normal" performance for that card or if you were affected by the performance bug that we're fixing.

Is there any chance that an "even lower" graphics setting might emerge? I'm a fan of eye candy, and the game is clearly quite beautiful, but I'd give it all up for more playability.

FWIW I'm on a 1.33mhz PB g4 with 1.25gb ram and the 5200 card. I downgraded to 10.4.6 but sound remains very and scrolling is ultra-choppy.

Is there any chance that an "even lower" graphics setting might emerge? I'm a fan of eye candy, and the game is clearly quite beautiful, but I'd give it all up for more playability.
It would be useful. It seems strange, after all, that they have frozen unit option but everything else on the map (mines, etc.) are still moving.

Is there any chance that an "even lower" graphics setting might emerge? I'm a fan of eye candy, and the game is clearly quite beautiful, but I'd give it all up for more playability.

Try the beta patch we just released - it may help with performance.

I was very worried about what I was reading here as I lurked, so I waited for the patch before buying the game. I installed the game and then the patch, so I never attempted to play without the patch. My system is a 20" iMac G5 2.1GHz 1.5Gb running X.4.7.

I ran one game through to about 2000 on a small world, full screen. It slowed in the more modern era, but not too badly. I had a few game crash problems, but in my second game, I finally figured out how to make the game run in a window, and I don't think I've had a crash since (though I'm not that far into my second game). OTOH, running in a window, I find it harder (impossible?) to scroll the map when, say, telling a unit to goto someplace off the current screen. In fullscreen, mousing to the edge made the map scroll, but now the mouse just goes off the window.

I'm not sure what the game's *supposed* to sound like, but I seem to have continuous music (the only exception I can think of is when a game is loading, the music will cut out for a second when the load bar is about 75% done) and it plays a reasonable amount of ambient sound effects (cheers, etc.). No combat sound, and combat animation is jerky.

The only other weird thing I've noticed that I haven't seen mentioned was that at one point all the cities and improvements on the world map turned black. After saving and restarting, it was okay again.

I'm still learning the ropes of the game, so I'm not yet too concerned about the occasional crash and glitch. With the patch, I find the game playable and enjoyable, but I hope and trust more fixes will come in the future. Thanks to Aspyr for addressing problems quickly.

I was very worried about what I was reading here as I lurked...
Glad to hear the report, essential! And welcome to the boards!

Brad, could you please comment on the Geforce 5200 and it being able to run Civ IV (64mb, standard iMac G5 card) well, even if a patch is put in place?? Thanks for all your info so far :goodjob:

I'm running with that card in a dual G5 tower (1.8GHz, 1.5gig ram) and the game runs pretty well (modulo the various bugs reported here), especially post-patch. I do use the low graphics settings, though.

The only other weird thing I've noticed that I haven't seen mentioned was that at one point all the cities and improvements on the world map turned black. After saving and restarting, it was okay again.

I reported the same thing. My daughter and I have both seen this problem on MacBooks and I was wondering if it was MacBook-specific. You've proved that it isn't (and isn't Intel-only, either), so I hope it will be fixed in a future patch.

Hmm. OK, in order to eliminate the problem of top part of the game screen being cut off by the menu bar when playing in windows mode, you have to have the game's resolution the *same* as the computer's resolution, correct?

Gatekeeper

Hmm. OK, in order to eliminate the problem of top part of the game screen being cut off by the menu bar when playing in windows mode, you have to have the game's resolution the *same* as the computer's resolution, correct?

I'd say smaller. If you're playing at 1024x768, and your maximum screen resolution is 1024x768, you'll never see the top of the window. You have to allow for some vertical space for both the menu bar and the window bar if you want to avoid this.

When I do open it up on the main screen at 1280x1024 screen I use 1280x960. This resolution seems tailor-made for that situation.

So here's an odd one...

After installing the beta patch, my G5 2x2.7GHz was still having the corrupted VRAM when you zoom out to the globe.

So I decided, since the rest of the game was much faster without the CPU bogged down with unwanted threads... how would it play with higher graphics turned on?

I turned off "Globe View Buildings Disabled" and "Low Resolution Textures," and turned on "High Detail Terrain." I set all three graphics levels to Medium, and MultiSamples to 2. I'm playing in a 1440x900 window.

I did that... and globe view now works just fine. Not quite as smooth as Google Earth, but usable.

I'm wondering if there's some bug involving the lower-performance graphics options?

Brad, et al.:

Thanks for the reply. I'm curious, is there an easy way to change the resolution from w/i the game? And as I like to multi-task, would a lower Civ IV resolution affect any of my other running programs?

My apologies if the questions seem silly, but I'm about to embark on experiencing OS X for the first time on a new Intel iMac, my first Apple CPU purchase since May 1999. I almost feel like a neophyte when I begin reading into OS X stuff.

Gatekeeper

Thanks for the reply. I'm curious, is there an easy way to change the resolution from w/i the game? And as I like to multi-task, would a lower Civ IV resolution affect any of my other running programs?

You can change the resolution in-game, and the resolution shouldn't have a measurable impact on other apps, unless those apps are 3D games. ;)

Heh. Not likely! BTW, are you an insomniac? I have an excuse for posting so late (or early): It's called working the night shift! ;)